Is It Ever Right To Lie?

Summary

Knowing Faith Podcast Summary: "Is It Ever Right To Lie?" (March 19, 2026)
Hosts: Kyle Worley, JT English, Jen Wilkin

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Episode Overview

This episode of "Knowing Faith" explores the ethical complexity of lying within the Christian worldview. Rather than giving a simplistic answer, hosts Kyle, Jen, and JT dive into biblical passages, philosophical arguments, and real-life scenarios to ask: Are there ever circumstances when it is morally right to lie? Through scripture, historical examples, and practical wisdom, they try to equip listeners to think biblically and theologically about truth, honesty, and deception.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Defining the Question—Does the Bible Say "Don't Lie"?

• Ten Commandments Focus:
  • Jen clarifies, “No, it doesn’t say don’t lie? No, it says, ‘don’t bear false witness against your neighbor’.” (06:01—Jen Wilkin)
  • The biblical emphasis in Exodus is specifically about bearing false witness in ways that can unjustly harm others.
  • Kyle and Jen discuss the severe Old Testament consequences of false witness, especially when it concerned life-or-death legal proceedings. (06:18)
  • Broader scriptural themes, including Proverbs condemning “lying lips,” are noted but distinguished from the legal context of the Ten Commandments.

2. Is It Always Wrong To Lie? The Philosophical Perspective

• Kyle introduces Immanuel Kant’s categorical imperative, reflecting the “never lie” principle:
  • “Kant would say something like, you couldn’t say it’s always okay to lie. So you should rather say it’s never okay to lie. This idea, which is that ethical categories should be binding on everyone in all places at all times and all ways.” (07:26—Kyle Worley)
• The hosts question if this black-and-white standard aligns with lived Christian experience and biblical accounts.

3. Deception in Relationships—Jump Scares, Kindness, and Surprise Parties

• JT engages with the playful side—asking if “jump scares” are sinful deception.
  • "Is that a lie? Is that deception?” (06:59—JT English)
  • Kyle calls this “deception of the highest order,” but Jen responds tongue-in-cheek: “It’s a sin no matter how you decide to frame it.” (07:14—Jen Wilkin)
• They debate "lies of kindness," such as planning surprise parties or responding gently to questions about appearance, haircuts, or even children’s artwork.
  • “So you’re creating a category for a lie in kindness. Am I correct?” (09:33—Jen Wilkin)
  • Kyle links this to the philosophical concept of the “noble lie.” (09:38—Kyle Worley)

4. Virtuous Lies in Scripture—Biblical Case Studies

• Hosts explore biblical stories where deception appears justified:
  • Rahab hiding the spies (Joshua 2)
  • Hebrew midwives deceiving Pharaoh (Exodus 1:15-21)
  • Wise men avoiding Herod’s orders (Matthew 2:7-12)
  • Moses’ mother protecting her baby, Tamar’s actions in Genesis (14:19, 15:02)
• These examples typically emphasize protecting innocent life or resisting oppressive political authority.
  • “There are times in which it is a more virtuous thing to not willingly disclose the truth or to potentially willingly obfuscate what is true in order for a more just end…” (13:01—Kyle Worley)

5. Women and Deception—A Theological Layer

• Jen highlights a theological motif:
  • "If you go all the way back to the garden... women take the weapon of the serpent and turn it around on him. So the serpent who deceives, they now take deception and use it to war against the serpent.” (15:19—Jen Wilkin)
  • The hosts note it’s often women in Scripture who use deception for redemptive ends, given their lack of other means in patriarchal contexts.

6. Criteria for Righteous Deception—Intent and Context

• Intent: The clearest scriptural justifications for lying arise when it protects others or serves a greater good, not self-interest.
  • “It’s not lying in service of self.” (16:32—Kyle Worley)
  • “It’s always for a greater ... purpose of achieving a greater good.” (16:50—Jen Wilkin)
• Context: Many biblical examples center on withholding truth from oppressive authorities; “Caesar is owed our tax, but he is not owed the first fruits of our conscience.” (18:24—Kyle Worley)
• JT emphasizes, “You would use deception insofar as it’s a legitimate means by which you’re loving God and your neighbor.” (18:18—JT English)

7. Unvirtuous Truth-Telling and Lies

• Hosts discuss how even truth-telling can be morally problematic when motivated by pride or poor timing (referencing Job’s friends and harsh online “truth bombs”).
  • “There is a kind of honesty that it seems like is reserved for relational proximity…” (11:05—Kyle Worley)
  • “Maybe before we talk about a virtuous lie, we should talk about the possibility of an unvirtuous truth telling.” (11:27—Jen Wilkin)

8. White Lies and Everyday Social Deceptions

• Kyle, JT, and Jen debate “white lies”:
  • Are they harmless?
  • Do they erode trust over time?
  • Do kind lies have relational value, for example, with children? (31:02–Jen Wilkin)
• JT cautions: “White lies, especially when they’re told regularly, what you’re doing is you’re discrediting your trustworthiness over time. And I think that then is imaging God who is fundamentally trustworthy.” (30:27—JT English)
• Jen sees nuance: sometimes, affirming a child’s “beautiful” artwork isn’t about the objective truth of the drawing, but about affirming the relationship. (31:02–31:45)

9. Motive and Wisdom—Knowing Your Own Heart

• The hosts repeat that truthful or deceptive responses require discernment and self-awareness about intent.
  • “We have to know where the line is… You have to be willing to risk the relationship to tell [the truth] at the right time and in the right tone…” (32:49–33:18—Kyle Worley & Jen Wilkin)
  • “Sometimes you are loving your neighbor by not saying something.” (33:35—Jen Wilkin)
• Jen cautions parents about young children’s lies: “Small children are experimenting with the power of words more than they have some evil intent… Don’t add a moral freight to it that isn’t behind it…” (35:24–36:21)

10. The Overarching Principle—Weight Toward Truthfulness

• JT sums up: “The overwhelming… weight of the Bible is on being trustworthy people… The only situation where you could potentially be deceptive is out of a genuine love for God and neighbor.” (37:01–37:56—JT English)
• Situational deception is rare, requires wisdom, and should not be used to rationalize self-interest, sin, or cowardice.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Truth is not situational. The timing of truth telling can be situational.” (12:40—Kyle Worley)
• “If you go all the way back to the garden… women take the weapon of the serpent and turn it around on him.” (15:19—Jen Wilkin)
• “Caesar is owed our tax, but he is not owed the first fruits of our conscience, that our conscience belongs to the Lord before it belongs to Caesar or to rulers or to leaders.” (18:24—Kyle Worley)
• “We are not bound to the law as a tyrant. It is a tutor to us. And one of the ways that it tutors us is by teaching us how to exercise… wisdom in really complicated ethical situations.” (27:50—Kyle Worley)
• “White lies…you’re discrediting your trustworthiness over time. And I think that then is imaging God who is fundamentally trustworthy.” (30:27—JT English)
• “We have to know our own hearts… and we have to know where the line is… you have to be willing to risk the relationship.” (32:49—Kyle Worley)
• “Sometimes you are loving your neighbor by not saying something.” (33:35—Jen Wilkin)
• “If you’re asking the question ‘is it ever right to lie?’ The answer is yes, I think what we’re saying. But those situations are very few and far between, require a lot of prayer, wisdom, discernment…The overwhelming weight…is being people of trustworthiness.” (37:01—JT English)

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Key Segment Timestamps

• Intro & initial framing: 03:43 – 06:08
• Biblical commandment breakdown (bearing false witness): 06:01 – 07:11
• Philosophy: Kant and Universal Ethics: 07:26 – 08:53
• Surprise parties, kindness and the ‘noble lie’: 08:53 – 10:31
• Unvirtuous truth-telling, Job and timing: 11:27 – 12:45
• Rahab, Hebrew midwives, and biblical precedent: 13:01 – 15:08
• Women and redemptive deception: 15:19 – 16:56
• State power, civil resistance, and conscience: 17:15 – 19:32
• Psychology of rule-following and the “law”: 21:16 – 23:09
• White lies, social scenarios, and trustworthiness: 29:16 – 31:45
• Parenting, child development, and lying: 35:24 – 37:01
• Concluding wisdom and warning: 37:01 – 37:56

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Conclusion

The hosts conclude that honesty should be the overwhelming Christian ethic, but Scripture and wisdom make room for rare, well-considered exceptions: especially when truth-telling would result in an even greater moral wrong—such as the betrayal of the innocent or complicity with evil. These decisions, they warn, require deep wisdom, right motives, community counsel, and prayer. Ultimately, Christians are called to form their conscience according to God’s character—truthful, trustworthy, but also loving and just.

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For listeners: This conversation is not a license to deceive, but an invitation to exercise Christlike discernment in complex ethical situations.

Transcript

[A]

This episode of Knowing Faith is brought to you by Crossway, publisher of Stand in All How Reverence Transforms Our Worship and Our Lives Laura's story seeks to lead Christians in scriptural reverential worship all seven days of the week. Sharing her 20 years of experience as a worship leader and award winning recording artist, she clarifies what worship is and what it isn't and what's at stake without it. Pick up a copy of Stand in all wherever books are sold or visit Crossway.org in all to learn how to get 30% off with a free Crossway plus account. You ever listen to an episode of Knowing Faith and think, my goodness, I'd like to do this in person somewhere? Well, you are in luck. Our friend and co host Jen Wilkin has a series of events coming up. These are Bible teaching events at six different locations in the us. They are called in the Word with Jen Wilken. Worship is Provided by Sandra McCracken and what you can expect is in depth teaching and study of the Lord's Prayer. So you're going to learn not just how to pray, but why we pray. These events include worship time for community scripture study and prayer. These are at six events over the course of the next year. If you want to go hang out with Jen and study the Lord's Prayer and have some wonderful worship led by Sandra McCracken, go to lifeway.com in the word again, that's lifeway.com intheword they are coming to your area so go check it [e-mail] in the word and hang out studying the Lord's Prayer with our friend and co host Jen Wilkin. Go check it out. What does it mean to follow Jesus when it cost everything? In May 2024, the world saw headlines out of Haiti. Davey and Natalie Lloyd and their friend Jude were killed while serving as missionaries. Three believers who gave their lives in faithful obedience to Christ. Strong to the End shares the story of their lives marked by quiet faith, steadfast trust and a love for others that endured even in danger. Written by Davey's parents, David and Elisa Lloyd with Dean Merrill, this account invites us to trust Christ and count the cost. Let their faith strengthen yours. Order your copy of Strong to the End today wherever you find your books. This is Kyle Worley and I'm joined by my co hosts Jen Wilkin and J. English. And you don't know this audience, but today we are strapped in for podcast after podcast after podcast every Every once in a while. Every once in a while is a big day over Here in knowing Faith Recording land. And we're going to be together from now until into the evening hours.

[B]

When we used to do, we used to do four episodes at a time.

[A]

I cannot believe that we did that.

[B]

Like I, like if I went back and just picked an episode, I'd be able to tell you whether it was the first one or the first.

[C]

There was no doubt about that. It was 20 minutes long or 40 minutes long.

[A]

That's right. Those fourth episodes were always like very either tight because we were like, we got to finish it and go to bed or get to dinner or super loose. There was no in between, no 30 minute golden hour episodes for those four episode recording sessions. But this is the first. So I can't tell you what the last of our recording will look like today, but the first of our recording will be a ton of fun. We are asking the question, is it ever right to lie? And the goal of all of the episodes last season and this season are to explore trippy. Trippy. Well, sometimes trippy, but always trippy again.

[C]

This is the first episode.

[A]

Tricky topics and thorny questions. Because our goal with everything that we do at training the church Knowing Faith with the Deep Discipleship Program is to help you learn to think theologically and biblically about everything. That's why we record these episodes and it's why we collaborated with Lifeway to produce the Deep Discipleship Program, which is a year long theological discipleship program. I gotta tell you, JT and I were just talking about this yesterday. Jt, at your church, how many folks did you guys see come to profess faith in Christ and baptized?

[C]

We baptized 47 adults in baptism, two kind of kiddos, you know, students, and then 45 adults. It was just so fun. And then after that, I just gave a gospel presentation and invitation to believe in 44 adults raised their hand to believe for the first time. I mean, it was just one of those days that you, you'll probably remember for a long time and.

[A]

Jt, do you guys run men and women's Bible study at your church?

[C]

We do. We, we just finished Exodus.

[A]

How many people did you have in men and women's Bible study?

[C]

Oh, total, just right around a thousand.

[A]

Okay, so great. And you're, you're running the Deep Discipleship Program. How many people do you have in

[C]

the Deep Discipleship program, including the institute? About 150.

[A]

So here's a church that is teaching men and women the Bible, teaching them how to read and study the Bible, teaching their people doctrine. And what are some of the Fruit that they're seeing from that effective evangelism. Meaningful mission. We have heard over and over again from people who'd say the church doesn't need more depth. And not only is that not true by any measurable standard available out there for the church in the west, it's also not true that churches that pursue depth only end up with depth. They end up also experiencing vitality when it comes to their community, belonging and their meaningful mission. And so if you're interested in pursuing deep discipleship, go to lifeway.com deep discipleship and discover that when you pursue depth, you're also going to get community and mission alongside it. And that is a really unique thing. All right, today we're asking the question, is it ever right to lie? The question sounds pretty simple, doesn't it?

[B]

Jen, you wrote a book on the 10 right there.

[A]

Well, if you wrote a book on the Ten Commandments. And doesn't. Doesn't God's word say don't lie? No, it doesn't say don't lie?

[B]

No, it says, don't bear false witness against your neighbor. Okay, all right, so it does address the Ten Commandments. Do address a form of lying. Yeah.

[A]

Okay, well, let's talk about that. So when we think about what the Ten Commandments are forbidding, what is it? What does it mean to bear false witness against your neighbor?

[B]

It means saying things that are untrue about someone. And if you put it in the context of the Old Testament, that's a pretty costly thing to do because for a lot of things that you could be accused of, the penalty was death. So if you lied about someone's involvement in a crime, you could potentially cost them their life. And that's not a reversible sentence, I think we all know. So that is important to understand when we hear just specifically that it's dealing with bearing false witness. But I don't mean to say that the Bible doesn't have other places. It talks about lying and Proverbs talks about how the Lord hates lying lips. It's a theme. It's out there.

[A]

So, jt, it's always wrong to lie. Yes or no?

[C]

I mean, this is sticky for me because would you guys consider, like, crouching in a corner or around a corner when somebody's walking down a hallway in preparation for a jump scare? Is that a lie? Is that deception?

[A]

I would consider deception of the highest order.

[B]

It's a sin no matter how you decide to frame it.

[C]

I don't know about that. I feel like if it builds friendship and Community and laughter. There could be a way to talk about this as something that builds joy and happiness.

[A]

There could be. No. You know, it's interesting because if I could put on my nerd. I don't have a hat or cap, Jen, but if I could. If I could put on my nerd ball cap for a second, though. There was a philosopher named Immanuel Kant, and Kant had this ethical theory called the categorical imperative. And Kant's idea was that you should never do something, something that you could not make a universal law for all people in all places. Meaning, like you. Yes, categorical imperative. The idea was you should never do that which you could not say everyone should do all the time in all the places. So Kant would say something like, you couldn't say it's always okay to lie. So you should rather say it's never okay to lie. This idea, which is that ethical categories should be binding on everyone in all places at all times and all ways. And I think a lot of times when people approach something that can seem as simple as lying, they can say, well, this is a very clear thing, you should not lie. You should never lie. And yet we know there are a lot of times when a lie can actually be helpful and sometimes when a lie cannot be helpful, but it can be innocuous. Like if we were planning a surprise party for our friend Jen and she

[C]

ever do this, or a surprise jump scare, don't you?

[A]

Or ever. And she said, what are you doing on Thursday night at 7? And if JT and I knew, well, at Thursday night at 7 o', clock, we are going to be waiting in the dark at your house for a surprise party, it would not really be the best thing. If a surprise party is what we've all agreed to, would bless and serve gin, which it sounds like it.

[B]

It would never. It would never.

[A]

But a world in which it would. It would actually not be kind or loving or serving Jen, to say, well, we're actually going to be at your house waiting to surprise you.

[B]

So you're creating a category for a lie in kindness. Am I correct?

[A]

Yeah. This is what Plato, I think, would have called the noble lie. He would use that phrasing, noble lie. There are times in which it is more virtuous to not tell the truth. And you can think about that with silly examples, but you can also think about that with, like Rahab hiding the spies.

[B]

Right, Right. So I've heard of the virtuous lie. I was trying to decide how I felt about the lie in kindness, which to me I mean, kindness is a virtue, so maybe that's how you would roll it in there. But, you know, you get into pretty quickly into, like, people saying, does this. Do these genes make my. You know, go ahead, keep going. Make my figure look good.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And you're like, yeah, sure.

[A]

Do you like my haircut?

[B]

This is amazing.

[A]

Isn't this baby cute? Don't you love my dog?

[B]

Breathtaking. Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

I've never. I'll tell you this as your friend, I've never lied to you about how I feel about your dogs.

[B]

You and many other people.

[A]

At the surface level, I'm disinterested. At a more substantive level, I'm antithetical to them.

[B]

So is there something then? Is there? I know we'll talk about the virtuous lie. We've actually talked about that on other episodes. But. But I'm kind of curious about this lie in kindness thing because does it have to do with depth of relationship? Like, are you less likely to lie in an attempt to be kind with someone who you know really well? Because, like, if I ask Jeff how something makes an outfit makes me look, he's going to tell me,

[A]

I don't know. That's a good question. It does seem like there is. Gosh, doesn't Proverbs commend that, like a. Like a. Like a gentle rebuke from a friend is a gift that you can offer? Like, isn't there a kind of honesty that it seems like is reserved for relational proximity that even the writer of Proverbs is indicating?

[B]

Well, maybe before we talk about a virtuous lie, we should talk about the possibility of an unvirtuous truth telling. Like, what would be some examples of that? Twitter?

[A]

Sure. Or even just like, Job. Some of. Some of what Job's friends are up to.

[C]

Yeah, that's a good example.

[A]

Some of what Job's friends are up to is like, some. Some of what Job's friends say is false. Some of what Job's friends say is just not timed. Like, it's not the moment. We talk about that when we talk about caring for people in suffering. We've talked about this a lot with the sovereignty of God. It is really not the best time to give a lecture on providence and predestination when you're sitting in the waiting.

[C]

That's really the fact that it's true,

[A]

despite the fact that it's true.

[B]

Right, so. So what we're saying then, and I think people actually recognize this a lot more clearly than they might the. The category of lying. But the category of truth telling we're pretty able to recognize is situational. That there. That it's not just that you have the truth to tell, it's that you've chosen the right tone and the right time.

[A]

Well, it's important to truth and that

[B]

you're the right person to say it too.

[A]

Truth is not situational. The timing of truth telling can be situational.

[B]

Like, we're contrasting lie telling and truth telling. And so that's why I'm saying, like, if truth telling is situational, it should make sense that the. The good or the goodness or badness of lie telling would also be situational too.

[A]

Yes, I think there is a part of that for sure. And I think that's like, that's what's going on with Rahab in the spot. Like, I think that's a good biblical example. It's super easy to point to, which is there are times in which it is a more virtuous thing to not willingly disclose the truth or to potentially willingly obfuscate what is true in order for a more just end or because those who are pursuing truth, we're like, we're recording this in the Christmas season. Can you think of one where this happens in the nativity story?

[B]

Yes, I can.

[A]

Come on, tell me which one. What are you thinking, jt?

[B]

What would you say?

[C]

Well, I was going to say, for my nativity story at home is me telling my kids that Santa still exists. Right.

[B]

Why would I give up.

[C]

Give up on that one? I don't know if I'm thinking the same one. You guys thinking. What are you thinking of, Jen?

[A]

I'm thinking of Herod and the wise men. Like the. The wise men, they go out of their way to not communicate the information that they've received. There is, you can call it an implicit or an explicit deception, but they're certainly having been commissioned by the ruler of the region to provide information that they now have. They don't do that. There's a willingness.

[B]

Can you think of an Old Testament couple that they would correspond to?

[A]

Okay, now you've hit my Kryptonite.

[B]

That's the Hebrew midwives. Yeah. Because Herod is cast in the role of Pharaoh, he wants to slay, basically the new Moses. And so they. Or you could say the Hebrew midwives, or you could even say Moses, mother. But in both cases, you have women who conceal so that a better, a greater good can be preserved. And I would. I would say that that's the pattern that you see with Rahab. And I think it's the pattern that this might be a tough sell for some people, but I think it's what Tamar does back in Genesis when she dresses as a prostitute. So, yeah, it's women. Women are liars. Guys.

[A]

No, gosh, let's not clip that one. Yeah, no, we're. J.T. and I don't endorse.

[B]

We're virtuous liars.

[A]

That sound bite, I want to be real clear about that one.

[C]

So, Jen, you would say that. You'd say the consistent thread and theme there is. They're. They're doing it for a greater purpose.

[B]

Yeah. And I think you see it tied to. I was joking a little about women being liars, but I think you see it tied to women, female figures for a particular reason. One would be that in the ancient Near East, a has relatively few weapons that she can fight someone in power with. And so deception is one that she would employ because she only has, again, she can't overpower someone physically. She lacks social status, all kinds of things. But then I think the other reason is more poetic, and that is if you go all the way back to the garden and when God is saying, this is what things will be like now that you have sinned against me, he says, I will put enmity between you and the serpent. And he's saying, between the woman's offspring and the serpent. Right. And. Or between the woman and the serpent. I'm sorry. And so I think that what we're seeing, and actually this is not from me, this is from theologians, is that we're seeing women take the weapon of the serpent and turn it around on him. So the serpent who deceives, they now take deception and use it to war against the serpent.

[A]

That's interesting. I don't know. I need to think more about that. That makes sense to me. I don't find anything that's, like, super objectionable about it. I think the larger point that you were making is the one that I feel like is the stickiest for this, which is that it's not lying in service of self.

[B]

That's right. It's always for a greater. This. The. The source of the purpose of achieving a greater good.

[A]

Right. And I think that is what we see in shadowy ways with Tamar and. Shadowy. I don't. I mean, shadowy. Just because the narrative there is really textured and complicated. Not because.

[B]

Yeah, I think that's the least obvious of those examples, but I think the others. The other. Because there's such a pattern. I think those other examples inform that one.

[A]

Yeah. And I think that that's what we see, too, when we think about historic examples of Christians doing this, whether in, like, Central and Western Europe during the rise of Nazism, or we think about it on the Underground Railroad and the abolitionist movement across.

[B]

If you've ever read a book about, like, the French Resistance movement and been really moved by people's bravery, you were moved by the bravery of people who lied day in and day out for the source, for the. For the sake of a greater good, would you guess?

[C]

Maybe for me. For me in, like, larger theological categories. I've never thought of it quite this way, but one of the reasons we want to be trustworthy, the primary reason, is because it's a reflection of God's character. We primarily don't lie. We want to be trustworthy, truthful people because God is light, and in him there's no darkness. He can't utter and speak a lie or falsehood. So there's that. On the other side of the great commandment, though, is love your neighbor. And so for people who are loving God with our whole selves and loving our neighbor as we love ourselves, I wonder if one of the theological groundings could hear is you would use deception insofar as it's a legitimate means by which you're loving God and your neighbor.

[B]

Yes. Yeah.

[A]

Yes. I agree. I was coming at it from a different grounding, jt But I think similar thought, which is like when Jesus tells us to render under Caesar what belongs to him there. Like, there is a partition, that there are portions that don't belong to him. And I don't think it's any coincidence that a lot of the testimony in Scripture where the truth is deliberately withheld or hidden has to do with God's people in some sort of relationship to the state or to state powers. You think about the examples we gave Hebrew midwives, the. The wise men, Rahab. These are all kind of examples with reference to civil, social, or political power. And that is when we think about historical examples of the noble or virtuous lie, those are the ones that are most easiest to come up with and defend quickly. And I think part of that is because Caesar is owed our tax, but he is not owed the first fruits of our conscience, that our conscience belongs to the Lord before it belongs to Caesar or to rulers or to leaders.

[B]

Well, yeah. And so probably a good way to frame this up in terms of, like, what would be an unvirtuous lie would be you can pay your taxes to Caesar, but you can't say Caesar is Lord. Like to say Caesar is Lord is to deny that Jesus is Lord. This is the reason people are martyred. It's, you know, it wasn't for tax evasion. It was because they wouldn't proclaim the ultimate falsehood. And I think when people get I was going to ask what you guys think is the reason when I teach on this, people get super uncomfortable with it. Like the, the rulesy people, they're like, no, you are never supposed to lie. And what do you think is it that makes people so uncomfortable with the idea that there could be a wisdom principle at play in the area of truth telling or lie telling? Are you tired of shallow discipleship in your life, the life of your church or small group? God is inviting you into deeper places. Real participation in his story, real understanding of who he is and what he has done, and a more meaningful practice of following in his ways. For the last 10 years, JT, Jen and Kyle have been teaching a program called Deep Discipleship in their local churches and they they have now worked with Lifeway to make this available to everyone everywhere. Whether you're an individual looking to go deeper, a church leader looking for an accessible way to invite your small groups, classes and student ministry, or a homeschool family looking for curriculum for your high school students, go check out the Deep discipleship [e-mail] Deep Discipleship Foreign.

[A]

Listening to an episode of Knowing Faith and think, my goodness, I'd like to do this in person somewhere. Well, you are in luck. Our friend and co host Jen Wilkin has a series of events coming up. These are Bible teaching events at six different locations in the us. They are called in the Word with Jen Wilkin. Worship is Provided by Sandra McCracken and what you can expect is in depth teaching and study of the Lord. So you're going to learn not just how to pray, but why we pray. These events include worship time for community scripture study and prayer. These are at six events over the course of the next year. If you want to go hang out with Jen and study the Lord's Prayer and have some wonderful worship led by Sandra McCracken, go to lifeway.com in the word. Again that's lifeway.com in the word. They are coming to your area so go check it [e-mail] in the word and hang out studying the Lord's Prayer with our friends friend and co host Jen Wilkin. Go check it out. You know what, that's a good question. I don't know that I've thought about this with regard to that I have thought about it with regard to other areas that wisdom requires. And one of the things that I think compromises people's ability to exercise wisdom in the kind of the gray matter and that level of freedom that comes with being not bound to the dictates of the law, but free to live lawfully in light of God's love is I think, two things. One, I think that oftentimes people are exercising a degree of fluidity that is not wise and is foolish. And so they reach out to the safety of the clear black and white law in kind of their public Persona, because they actually know that privately they're not exercising a lot of wisdom. And so they're.

[B]

Give an example. Give me an example. Example of like, what would be.

[A]

Oh, gosh, I'm.

[C]

I.

[A]

The ones that come to mind to me feel super personal and pastoral for like the church that I'm leaning in. I don't want to air anybody's laundry.

[C]

Well, like, I think, Kyle, correct me if I'm wrong, but like, maybe to use like a. An example here that isn't just related to truth telling, but like, we. We all know that there's been pastoral situations where one of the things that the pastor is primarily known for is preaching against sexual immorality. Meanwhile, they're having.

[A]

Yeah, that's.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Right. Or it's like they're very loud about how clear the boundaries are or how clear the law are. And it's almost like they're. They're having to. And I'm not saying this is true for everybody. I'm not saying that if you. I really want everybody to be against adultery. So just. Yes, publicly and privately, I want everybody to be against adultery. Okay. But there certainly seems to be some times where the volume of public or vocal opposition to something is there to be a way of throwing. Throwing one's voice so as they can be a little bit more insulated from accountability for. For those very same sins in their personal or private lives.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Maybe that's one of the reasons why the law is compelling.

[B]

Yeah. Well, when the Bible says that it hates lying lips, it means lies that are spoken with the intent of self promotion or of self concealment. You know, either you're trying to cover something up or you're trying to make yourself look good, or I mean, it could be the lies of false teaching, you know, which are a blend of truth and lies almost all the time. It's where you mix it together into a soup and nobody can tell what's what that's why teachers are judged more strictly than others, because they're in the business of teaching truth and they don't want to adulterate that with lies. But I actually think this is not that hard to understand. We have so many examples from everyday life where we understand what it is to. To preserve truth in one space and to recognize that truth is maybe not what's needed in another space, but that the motive behind that decision is one that seeks love of neighbor and love of God.

[C]

And that's where I think people also get uncomfortable, is that's. It can be sticky because sometimes the love that your neighbor needs actually is truthfulness. And it can be easy to not give them truthfulness for the sake of allowing their sin to continue or for a lot, whatever. Like, we could come up with a hundred reasons here. So I think that's the. It's the grayness of this, of there's a lot of things that you could do under the love of neighbor that wouldn't be a biblical means of actually loving your neighbor.

[A]

That's right. And then there are a lot of. I've been thinking about. There's a movie called A Quiet Place. I don't know. Have you guys ever seen A Quiet Place?

[B]

I. I watched like the end of it when Jeff was watching it.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Stressed me out.

[A]

Okay, well, I'm not endorsing it, so if you don't like the movie or if you think it's inappropriate, like, go talk about it with somebody else, but don't message me about it. But the movie is a movie about a conscience objector in Austria to serving in Hitler's army. That. That's what the movie.

[B]

That's not what I thought you were talking about. I thought you were talking about that Alien movie where they eat people who make sounds.

[A]

Hold on. Okay. I said A Quiet Place, but I meant A Hidden Life. Okay. Yes. I am very much not endorsing A Quiet Place. That is an Alien movie. And you are right. I'm so glad that we clarified this. A Hidden Life is a movie by Terence Malick and it's about a conscientious objector in Austria to serving in Hitler's army, serving as a part of the Nazi army. And many people appeal to this man to just lie, to sign the form, and that basically would give him the freedom. Like, all he has to basically do is not oppose Hitler publicly, say he was wrong, and they're going to let him go home to his family and he won't do it. Like, he will not do it. He goes all the way. And then he is eventually martyred. He's killed, and he was a Christian. This is based off of a real story. It's based off a constellation of real stories. This guy stands in as a figure, but he was a real person, and he was just a farmer. And Malik's whole point is, is truth tell. Does truth telling really matter in a moment like that? When you're just going to live a hidden life, when you're just going to die, does the conscience matter? And I think it really does. It really does matter. And so what we're not doing here is we're not minimizing truth telling.

[B]

Right. Or glorifying lying.

[A]

Or glorifying lying. We're simply saying, honestly, we're kind of using this as a portal to say that there are times in which, as Christians, we look at God's moral law and we watch how it plays itself out in the course of the Bible. And then we learn how to live as wise people who are not bound to the dictates of the law, but do want to be righteously obedient to what God has called us to. And that will sometimes mean that we have to exercise a kind of righteously guided wisdom. It doesn't flaunt the law. It doesn't thumb its nose at God's moral precepts or moral law. But it also is not bound at a conscience level to some sort of tyranny of the most wooden readings of the law. And I think that's really important. I think it's really important to be able to come in and say, as Christians, we are not bound to the law as a tyrant. It is a tutor to us. And one of the ways that it tutors us is by teaching us how to exercise with the degree of free wisdom in really complicated ethical situations. And if we can't develop that instinct, then we're going to be in real trouble. Because there are a lot of things the Bible does not cover explicitly that do require righteously guided wisdom to address.

[B]

Can we tell white lies?

[A]

Like, is the white lie the common lie that we were talking about, or is it something different?

[B]

Well, I don't. That's why I'm asking. Like, a white lie covers a general category of just like, there's not a lot at stake in telling the lie,

[A]

the virtuous lie seems clear to me. I love a neighbor. I do think that there is a timing to truth telling that we see. Like we said in the story of Job, I think there's also a principle in the proverbs that, like, there is a benefit to hearing truth from people that have relational equity and credibility. Like, I don't know that I need to just walk up to somebody at a coffee shop and just blast them with a truth bomb in that moment. But the white lie, I don't know. That one's less clear. That feels less clear to me. But we do it all the time, don't we?

[C]

No.

[B]

Or you say, jt.

[C]

I've never. Come on, Kyle, I. Don't tell me any of those.

[A]

Jt, every time that you do a jump scare, it's a while when somebody tells you, isn't this.

[C]

No. You guys all know that I'm gonna do them here, hence, now and forever. Fourth, anybody who knows me, I'm gonna do jump scares. I'm not lying to you when I do it.

[A]

No.

[C]

I mean, I think the. Again, the grounding here for me, at least in my mind, but work this out with me is as image bearers, our responsibility is to love God and love neighbor. And I think white lies, especially when they're told regularly, what you're doing is you're discrediting your trustworthiness over time. And I think that then is an imaging God who is fundamentally trustworthy.

[B]

Okay, Yeah, I agree. But let me just give you an example. Like, we do this with children, right? A child brings you their picture and says, look, I drew this flower. Isn't it beautiful? And what do you say?

[A]

Of course it is. It's incredible.

[B]

Of course it's beautiful. Because what they're asking is like, do you love me? Do you think I'm wonderful? And so when you respond with it's beautiful, you're not making an objective statement about the work they did. You're responding to the question behind the question.

[C]

Correct.

[B]

So is there a way that we can do this with adults? So, like, let's say that your friend gets the haircut, right? And they're like, do you like my hair? I really like it. What do you say? Yeah, I love your hair. You know why? Because there's nothing at stake in saying, oh, I liked it better the other way. And what you're saying is, I love you and I don't care what your hair looks like. What do you think?

[A]

I think. I don't know. To me, it feels like. It doesn't feel like. There is something that is terribly wrong with that. It's not a matter of injury to their soul.

[B]

Well, so I. Again, we're talking about motive. I mean, I think there are people who give A response like that because they're suck ups and they just want everybody to like them. But I think there are times where you can say something like that and your motive is pure because you are more interested in relationship than in truth. I think it's possible to be more interested in relationship than in nailing down the truth publicly.

[A]

I agree with that. I think that that is even as we're talking about it now. And I agree with what you're saying. I can see it being a slippery slope. I could see people using it. And you're right. This is where it gets down to motive, where people would paper over real substantive things they should say, real truth telling that they should do in relationships because they're like, I gotta preserve the relationship.

[B]

And you're like, so you're saying we have to know our own hearts.

[A]

We do. And we have to know where the line is. Like, if J.T. was. J.T. is my friend, I love J.T. i would be really heartbroken to lose my friendship with JT but if JT was embarking on a course of foolish living that I felt like was really injurious to him or to his family or to those entrusted to his care, I'd have to be willing to risk the relationship I have with JT to tell him that's wrong at the right

[B]

time and in the right tone and with the right depth of relationship.

[C]

And that's one of the things I mean is like, it'd be very easy to rationalize, well, I'm loving him by not saying something. When in reality, no, you're loving your neighbor by saying something. That's where wisdom comes in.

[B]

But sometimes you are loving your neighbor by not saying something.

[A]

Yeah. Or you're loving your kid.

[B]

Right. And I think that, that, you know, that's what makes it so hard is because. Because I can point to times where it was the right decision not to say something is tempting to make every time. That or vice versa. But I think, yeah, I think we're more in a. An iteration of truth telling where people think that saying the truth as they see it is more important than holding it in for the sake of a long term relational goal. Would you agree or disagree or does it depend on the person?

[A]

I think it depends maybe on the. Maybe it depends on the context. I'll tell you, I don't know that in my community there's an abundance of people telling the truth or speaking truth to power. I think there's a lot of people saying what they want and say, well,

[B]

that's but they think that they. It's their truth. Right. I mean, I guess that's kind of what I'm getting at.

[A]

Yeah. I think I'd love to see more people saying the true thing out loud to people they care about and less people yelling the true thing out loud to be impressive online. And I would like, like, I have no interest in people being like, yeah, I'll see the true thing out loud to be impressive to a group of people online. I have a lot of interest in people saying the truth thing out loud to their neighbors. Neighbor, you know, at the right time in the right way to be able to say like, hey, this way that you're living, this God that you're worshiping is a false God. There is a true God.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And he invites you to receive him and respond to him today. So I don't want them papering over that with lie. But I, but at the same time, if, if I, I don't know that I want everybody coming up to me after every sermon and being like, here's my honest thoughts about that.

[B]

Can I throw in a word for parents here?

[A]

Yeah, please.

[B]

I have some thoughts on children and lying. I don't know if we've ever talked about this on the podcast before or not, but a lot of times parents get super rattled when a two and a half year old or a three year old starts lying elaborately to them about what they did or didn't do. And they're like, that's a lie and that's a sin and you shouldn't do it because we don't want our children to grow up to be big fat liars. But, but what I think is more important is to recognize that developmentally of small child, like lying is something that we pick up on really early. And small children are experimenting with the power of words more than they have some evil intent behind concealing something. And so you can certainly let there be a consequence for not having told the truth. But we sometimes will give adult weight to childhood lies. And, and so I would just urge. If you're a parent out there and you have younger children, just remember that children are experimenting with the power of words from the time they begin to be verbal all the way until the time that they graduate from high school and leave your home and beyond. But you're exposed to those years and so do give a little bit of grace to a child who is. Has to learn that telling a lie doesn't. It just doesn't work. Like it's not a working strategy. And it may work in the short term, but it's gonn backfire. But don't add a moral freight to it that isn't behind it in the way that if a 55 year old lied to you, there's a, there's a maturity element. And I think the way you can spot an immature adult is if they lie about a lot of stuff.

[C]

I think, I don't want to speak for you guys, but if you're listening to this, well, you are listening to this, you're not. If you're listening to this, you're listening. What you shouldn't hear us saying is that most things you say are like a 50, 50 toss up up. Like maybe this is a noble lie. Like the, the overwhelming, at least in my view, weight of the Bible is on being trustworthy people. It means being people of integrity with our words, with our actions, with our affections. We want those things to be in alignment with who we are in God's character. We don't want to be deceptive, we don't want to be known for lies. We don't want to be people who like. We don't want to use the category of wisdom to be, to be seen as like, well, you know, I'm just being a wise person. It could be that you're using the category of wisdom and just being a fool. And so, and so the overwhelming, I think thrust of, of what this question is is, you know, if we're asking the question is it ever right to lie? The answer is yes. I think what we're saying. But those situations are very few and far between, require a lot of prayer, wisdom, discernment. We haven't talked about this, but I would argue even community involvement, you know, asking other people, I'm in this really tight ethical situation. What do you think would you pray with me about? And so I think the, the overwhelming weight that the bubble places is be people of, of trustworthiness, integrity, truthfulness. Because in doing so you're representing God in situations where it could be sticky and subjective. The only situation where you could potentially be deceptive is out of a genuine love for God and neighbor. And, and that would actually build trustworthiness over time. You look at the situations that we've talked about in scripture related to, to deception, whether it was Rahab, whether it was the Hebrew midwives, even the wise men, over the long haul, their deceptions actually increased their trustworthiness when they had other things to do or say.

[A]

That's good. Hey listen, we hope that you've enjoyed the discussion. If you're like, oh, so I guess what I'm supposed to do is lie more. That's not what we said. We were talking about this so that you could help. You could learn how to explore these issues of ethical practice with wisdom, honor, and with righteousness. We hope this will help you towards that end. Thank you for listening to the podcast today. If you want to learn how to think theologically about everything, then go check out lifeway.com deepdiscipleship and whether or not you're running, maybe you're looking for curriculum for your student ministry for juniors and seniors, or your college ministry, or you're a homeschool co op looking for a theological curriculum that walks people through the whole story of the Bible for your your high school students, those would all be great use cases. This is a 24 week theological discipleship program and has three core books that are a part of it walks you through the whole story of the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, exploring key Christian doctrines along the route and the crucial and pivotal practices of the Christian life. One of the things that a lot of people don't know about is by the end of the Deep Discipleship Program, everyone shares the Gospel with a non Christian. Like tell me another program that's out there where evangelism is a core formative outcome of the program. There's not one. So go check it out. The Deep Discipleship program [e-mail] thanks for listening to the show today. Don't forget to check out our sponsors through our webpage link in the show notes [e-mail] under the Knowing Faith Podcast webpage. We hope you enjoyed the discussion. Rest in peace.