Should Public Schools Require Bible Reading?

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Should Public Schools Require Bible Reading?"

Knowing Faith – Season 17, Episode 1
Release Date: August 13, 2026
Hosts: Kyle Worley, JT English, Jen Wilkin

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Episode Overview

In this episode, the Knowing Faith hosts confront a timely and thorny question: Should public schools require Bible reading? Prompted by Texas’ recent move to introduce required Bible passages into public school curriculum by 2030, the hosts offer a thoughtful, theological, and practical conversation. They grapple with education’s purpose, the role of virtue formation, the realities of pluralism, and the complexities of implementing Bible reading in a secular public square.

The conversation is marked by honest self-examination, robust disagreement, and mutual respect—showing listeners how to thoughtfully engage major cultural questions through a rich theological lens.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting the Stage: Why This Question Matters

• The hosts reference Texas's new law mandating Bible readings in the public school curriculum, sparking state and national debate (07:35).
• The conversation links back to their earlier discussion about posting the Ten Commandments in classrooms.
• This is framed not as a culture war debate but as a call for theological and biblically rooted reasoning, reflecting the show's broader mission: "We want you to learn how to think biblically and theologically about everything." (08:18, Kyle Worley)

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2. Should Schools Be Sites of Religious or Virtue Formation?

• JT English: Argues you cannot strip faith or religious commitments from education, whether they're traditional (Christian, Jewish, Muslim) or secular (atheist, libertarian, progressive):

  "You just can't remove religious or faith commitments from pedagogy or from teaching... the question isn't is this going to happen—it's how it's going to happen and what's going to be taught." (11:12)

• Kyle Worley: Asserts there's no purely neutral or "naked" public square based on both theological and practical convictions:

  "Neutrality doesn't exist. There is no disinterested objectivity. That’s theologically grounded... every classroom, every inch of the world is religiously geared." (12:28)

• They discuss Abraham Kuyper’s concept of "sphere sovereignty," emphasizing education’s historic rooting in family, church, and, increasingly, the state (20:48).

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3. The Purpose and Nature of Education

• Role of Education:
  • "To form individuals to be productive participants in the life of a virtuous society." (15:24, Kyle Worley)
• Debate over education as a human right:
  • Kyle is wary of framing education as a "human right" due to its Western association with state facilitation.
  • Jen Wilkin: Challenges this, referencing global struggles for educational access, especially for women, and pushing for "common good" language (16:40–19:13).
• JT English: Steers discussion to history—public schooling in America emerged with Protestant (later secular, post-Dewey) assumptions, raising the stakes for defining what "good education" means (21:19–22:53).

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4. The Case for Bible Reading in Public Schools

All three hosts ultimately support including Bible reading in public school curriculum, but bring different emphases and caveats.

Kyle Worley:

• Three reasons for a resounding "yes" (32:28–33:11):
  1. Literacy: The Bible is foundational to Western literature, language, and culture.

     "...to think about a well-rounded education that does not include the most significantly influential text in the history of the world is... inconceivable."

  2. Ideas Formation: The Bible as a philosophical and ideas-generating text has shaped Western society.
  3. Virtue Formation/Love of Neighbor: Making the Bible accessible for all is an act of love that seeks the good of neighbor and the community.

JT English:

• Strongly agrees:
  • "[Bible] literacy is going to help you be a well-formed citizen of Western civilization and just a well-formed person. Schools form souls." (34:18)
• Does not see requiring a diversity of religious texts as necessary:
  • "...to be culturally literate in the 21st century ... so much ... is grounded in the historic Christian faith as found in scriptures delivered to us." (34:56)
• Expresses one major caveat: The real issue is who teaches the Bible and how (36:13):
  • "My concern isn't that it's going to be taught. It's actually who is going to be teaching it and how they're going to be teaching it."

Jen Wilkin:

• Affirms Bible reading as necessary for literacy, historical, and cultural understanding, in addition to virtue formation (38:44):
  • "From a literacy standpoint, from a Bible literacy standpoint, and from a historical, cultural literacy standpoint... it's a reclamation of something that is necessary."
• Warns about potential malformation if the Bible is poorly or hostilely taught but sees this as a learning opportunity for families and church communities.
• Notes “meta-narrative” is missing in curriculum picks, and that students need exposure to the Bible’s overarching story, not just isolated passages (45:24).

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5. Critiquing the Texas Bible Reading Plan

• Hosts review the actual selected Bible passages for each grade (41:54–44:44):
  • Emphasis is on Wisdom Literature (Psalms, Ecclesiastes) and select Gospel passages.
  • Absence of resurrection or birth of Christ narratives noted.
• Jen Wilkin: Feels curriculum should provide more meta-narrative/context early—students need to trace the grand story, not just encounter random morals.
• All hosts agree that while not perfect, including the Bible at all is significant and positive:
  • Kyle Worley: "As a citizen of a country that has completely lost any shared moral vocabulary... I'm grateful for anybody that's throwing any life raft anywhere that is broadly tied to the moral tradition." (47:46)

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6. Pedagogical Concerns: Coercion and Pluralism

• The hosts discuss the tension between adding Bible reading for literacy/virtue and avoiding coercion or proselytizing in pluralistic, taxpayer-funded schools.
• Jen Wilkin:
  • Draws a distinction between material in curriculum versus “coercive” symbols (e.g., pride flags, Ten Commandments posted with no comment), advocating for instructional sensitivity to diverse backgrounds (55:23):

    "I don't want the pride flag or the Ten Commandments up in, in the classroom. Because when you post the Ten Commandments without, especially without comment...that feels like another version of the pride flag hanging in the classroom."

• JT English defends formation as a natural and good part of education, including clear communication of right and wrong, virtue, and truth—wonders why we restrain this in the realm of religion but not other areas (54:18).

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7. Historical and Societal Implications

• Citing Tom Holland and other scholars, the hosts affirm the Bible’s central role in Western civilization and argue its removal is an over-correction in the effort to be religiously neutral.
• Kyle Worley: Cautions about the fragility of societies lacking a shared moral vocabulary, citing Alasdair MacIntyre (47:46–49:04).

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8. Final Reflections: Where Do We Go from Here?

• The hosts reflect on the societal crossroads: secular neutrality is vanishing, and three cultural-religious trajectories remain—continued secularism, renewed Judeo-Christian influence, or Islam (58:02).
  • "Let me tell you the pathway forward. There are three routes... It's worth considering...better to ask that now than to ask it 50 years too late." (58:02, Kyle Worley)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "You just can't remove religious or faith commitments from pedagogy or from teaching." – JT English (11:12)
• "Neutrality doesn't exist. There is no disinterested objectivity. That’s theologically grounded..." – Kyle Worley (12:28)
• "I'm not saying you have to answer this question the way I would...but you should begin to think really clearly and convictionally...for the common good." – Kyle Worley (58:02)
• "[Bible] literacy is going to help you be a well-formed citizen of Western civilization and just a well-formed person. Schools form souls." – JT English (34:18)
• "I don't want the pride flag or the Ten Commandments up in, in the classroom...when you post the Ten Commandments without, especially without comment...that feels like another version of the pride flag hanging in the classroom." – Jen Wilkin (55:23)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Introduction, Framing the Discussion: 02:18 – 08:23
• Are Schools Sites of Religious Formation?: 11:12 – 15:07
• Purpose/Nature of Education & Rights Debate: 15:24 – 19:13
• History of Public Education & Ideological Roots: 20:48 – 22:53
• Arguments for Bible Reading in Public Schools: 32:28 – 36:02
• Discussing the Texas Curriculum: 41:54 – 47:46
• Debate on Coercion, Pedagogy, and Pluralism: 51:24 – 56:28
• Societal Crossroads, Final Reflections: 58:02 – End

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Takeaways for Listeners

• The Bible's unique impact on Western history, ideas, and language makes it indispensable for a robust, well-rounded curriculum—even in pluralistic settings.
• Implementing Bible reading, even without explicit proselytizing, can support virtue formation and repair fraying social cohesion.
• The critically important questions are not just "Should we include the Bible?" but "How should we teach it? Who should teach it? And what portions should we emphasize?"
• Christian involvement—both in schools and in shaping curriculum—remains vital for the common good, though genuine pluralism and pedagogical sensitivity matter.
• The episode models respectful, serious theological disagreement and emphasizes discerning, biblically rooted engagement with complex civic issues.

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For Further Discussion

• How should Christians approach new developments in education policy in their own states or regions?
• What does it mean to pursue the common good when convictions and worldviews diverge widely?
• How can churches and families complement or supplement what is (or isn’t) happening in schools for the next generation’s faith and literacy?

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Next episode preview:
"Are women pastors biblical?" – tune in for another challenging theological conversation.

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Transcript

[Narrator/Announcer]

This episode of knowing faith is brought to you by Crossway, publisher of Dust to Aging Wisely in an Anti Aging World. In this extended exploration of aging, Jen Wilkin draws poetic parallels between the first half of life and the second. Exploring the changing realities of caregiving abilities and potentiality, she helps us to trace God's give and take design. At every stage, Wilkin offers practical insights on body image, honoring the elderly, the essential value of family, and more. Pick up a copy of Dust to Dust wherever books are sold or visit Crossway.org DusttoDust to learn how to get 30 off. Do you need a resolution Restart? It's totally fine. Keeping resolutions is hard, but don't give up. Reading the Bible is a vital way to grow in your relationship with God and you don't have to do it alone. A one year Bible can help you get back on track with daily scripture readings. It takes you on a year long journey of exploration and growth. Though designed to guide you through the entire Bible in 365 days, it has reading plan options so you can take more time with editions featuring journaling, devotionals, study notes and more, staying on track has never been easier. Renew your commitment to daily scripture reading and embark on this path. Start your trek [e-mail]. Women have questions about their bodies, fertility, hormones and reproductive health, but many feel dismissed, confused or disconnected from God's good design. But we don't have to be troubled by thorny topics and tricky questions, and that's why I'm excited to introduce to you Woven well, a Christian Woman's guide to Reproductive health, Fertility and Wholeness. Written by certified fertility care practitioner Kaitlyn Estes, who also holds a Master of Divinity degree, the book bridges science and faith, helping women understand how their bodies work, why that knowledge matters, and how it shapes faithful, informed decisions about health and family planning. Thoughtful, practical, hopeful, Wovenwell helps women reclaim dignity for the female body and see God's intentional design with fresh clarity. This is perfect for listeners who value rich theology applied to real life. You can find Woven well wherever you get books [e-mail].

[Kyle Worley]

This is Kyle Worley and I'm joined by my co host Jen Wilkin and JT English and we are kicking off season 17. Here we are. We've done the teaser episode that's behind us and now we're to the content. How are we feeling with this, this, you know, this new journey that we're all on as a 17 year old podcast? JT do you feel 17 and knowing faith years or is it like dog years? Do you feel like we've been doing this for 170 years?

[JT English]

It depends on the episode and it depends on the season. Some of these seasons, man just feels young and vibrant. Others of them, AKA Second Samuel, Dog ears.

[Jen Wilkin]

I just knew I could. I knew you couldn't hold back.

[Kyle Worley]

Jen, do you miss the line by line? Do you miss taking us into the deep waters of sevens on sevens on sevens and Revelation?

[Jen Wilkin]

No, no. Do you mean me, like, tugging you guys behind me in a boat where you, like, occasionally lob out a few questions and. Yeah, no, don't miss it.

[Kyle Worley]

Well, I had a member of the church where I'm at come up to me this past week and they, you know, I don't talk a lot about the podc. I know JT doesn't either. The church is where we pastor. Like, we don't want our people to see us as podcast host X. We're pastors of those churches, and so we don't talk a lot about the show in our local churches. That would be weird, right?

[Jen Wilkin]

Weird.

[Kyle Worley]

You. You might like in a sermon. JT gets up. It's like, you might have heard these six.

[JT English]

You might have heard me on my podcast.

[Jen Wilkin]

On my podcast where I talk about my books, which are available for sale.

[Kyle Worley]

If I heard that from ujt, I would come and kick you so hard in the chest that it would. It would send you out of Denver and into Canada and the. For me, but from Texas down to Mexico. But a member came up to me and said, hey, you know, I started listening to the podcast, and I'm about to jump into the Revelation episodes because I'm. They're doing. Him and his wife, along with a few others, are doing your study, Jim. And. And I said, well, let me just warn you ahead of time, whatever. Whatever respect you had for me as a teacher of the Bible, you are about to discover if you. If you ever needed to be told that your pastor doesn't know everything, you're about to get a crash course. Because it's. There are episodes where I am genuinely feigning my ignorance because I'm asking questions, you know, because I'm the host.

[Jen Wilkin]

Yeah, you're the glue.

[Kyle Worley]

I'm kind of. But I am. There's a little bit of that where I'm. I'm helping our audience get into the same kind of spirit that I'm in asking questions. Then there are times in which I absolutely have no clue what we're talking about. And a lot of the revelation episodes were Definitely. It was, it was. It was you with a flashlight and me and the dark tunnel behind you and me holding. With a hand on your shoulder.

[Jen Wilkin]

He was a lighter. That had a little bit of lighter fluid in it. Yeah, but I mean, I feel that way too, when there are episodes where you guys are just clearly better studied, more well read. You've taught it a million times. And I think people, listeners can probably tell, like the ones where we're quiet, it's because we're like, it's not my day to die.

[Kyle Worley]

Yeah. Yep. Well, but today, today we're all falling on our swords.

[Narrator/Announcer]

We are.

[Kyle Worley]

We are going to put our chips on the table.

[JT English]

Is that a reference from the Bible, Jen?

[Jen Wilkin]

What? Yeah, it might actually be from somewhere in a book that you hate.

[JT English]

Well, I wonder if we should teach that somewhere.

[Kyle Worley]

I think we should, you know, if, you know, as the audience, that we have been kind of taking a different angle over these last few seasons, exploring tricky topics and thorny questions. The reason we've done this is because we don't want you to learn, like, download our theology. We want you to learn how to think theologically and biblically about everything. It seems most people's default, particularly in the global west, is to think politically or economically about everything first. And it's not to say that political and economic or social questions don't matter. It's just that for the question, the lens by which we think about things firstly are regarding first ideas. And for the Christian, that's, what does the Bible say? What are the theological issues at stake here? And then through that prism, we then see the reverberations politically, socially, economically. So we want you to learn how to think biblically and theologically about everything. And it's not too late for you to move from being a consumer of this kind of content to a contributor and a collaborator. And if that's what you want to do, you should go check out the Deep Discipleship program through lifeway. Go to lifeway.com deep discipleship and check that out. We're at the beginning of an academic calendar. This is one of two pretty critical opportunities in the life of your calendar and how the Deep Discipleship program is built. It really functions best if you started either in, like, the August September timeframe or the January February timeframe. So if you've been on the fence about it, get off the fence and jump into the game now. But on today's episode, we are asking the question, should public schools require their students to read the Bible? And I'm phrasing it that way on purpose. Because if you were kind of following along with some of the news in public education this last summer, over the course of the summer, then it was big news that Texas, the state of Texas, the great state of Texas, of which I am so proud. Right back here, you can see my banner. God bless Texas, Texas forever. Right? There is a new required Bible reading plan in Texas public schools. I don't think it goes into effect fully until 2030. Is that right, Jen?

[Jen Wilkin]

Yeah, I'll be dead by then.

[Kyle Worley]

Well, you might be wishing that you are, but you're not. Listen, this new Bible reading plan goes into effect full force in 2030. It's broken up in grades. We'll get to that here in a bit. Um, but we want. There was a lot of conversation about this. There was a lot of discussion about this. Lots of people had big feelings about this. But we want to have a thought level discussion. I've heard that somewhere.

[Jen Wilkin]

We want to have a thought level

[Kyle Worley]

discussion about this consideration. Not a feelings level discussion. A thought level discussion about what should Christians think about public schools? Again, I'm saying public schools. Not homeschool, not private school, not your unschooling out on the farm somewhere with your churned butter. I'm talking about public schools.

[Jen Wilkin]

Those people have butter in their curriculum. That's a selling point. They should talk about more.

[Kyle Worley]

I think the homeschool and unschooling community is very much in the bread baking and butter making this part of the Venn diagram. Speaking from personal experience.

[Jen Wilkin]

Okay, okay, but.

[Kyle Worley]

Okay, should. How should Christians feel about. Or, or what should Christians think about public schools requiring Bible reading?

[Jen Wilkin]

Well, and just for our listeners who've been following along with this series, you may recall our double episode on should the 10 comm post be required to be posted in public school classrooms? And that's a. That relates to this conversation. That's one of the reasons I think we were eager to. JT's smirking. He's got his.

[JT English]

I'm so excited for this conversation. I hope you are too.

[Jen Wilkin]

But I have to tell you, I have to tell you guys a funny, funny thing that happened when I was at TTC Women. A woman came through the line to greet me and like, didn't have time to actually have a conversation because I had to go to the next thing and I get handed this bundle and I need to pass along to you your share of what she gave me. It was three sticky note pads with the ten commandments on them and a little note that said, now you can Stick them wherever you want.

[Kyle Worley]

Wow, that is pretty great.

[JT English]

Jefferson County, Colorado, is about to get plastered with plaster.

[Jen Wilkin]

Yeah. So anyway, I thought that was really funny, but just want our listeners to hear, you know, like, we had that conversation. We did not agree. I don't think we're going to land exactly in the same place on this conversation, but we are friends who love each other, and so we hope you enjoy listening to us process through this. And also, I think it's probably fair to say I don't know how you guys feel about this. I'm still navigating exactly how I want to think about this. There are some parts of it that feel clear to me, and then there are parts that I think I, I can't see the future on with regard to how this happens in public schools. And so I think I want to acknowledge. I don't know how you guys feel, but I want to acknowledge that it's possible I would come back a year later or two years later or after 20, 30 and say, here's how I would have had this conversation differently in light of what I now know.

[Kyle Worley]

But, yeah, I think that's fair. I think that's more than fair. You know what? Let's start here. Are schools a place for religious? Are public schools a place where religious education happens or should happen?

[JT English]

It's currently happening. You just can't remove religious or faith commitments from pedagogy or from teaching. And so of course, Kyle, the way that you asked the question, you're speaking very broadly, there's like kind of traditional religions, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, but I think, or Buddhism and others. But there's also secular commitments of faith. There's atheistic commitments of faith, there's progressive or libertarian commitments of faith. And so I was, I'm going to get this phrase wrong. But, you know, a lot of people talk about the separation of church and state, which is even a funny language, right? The se. The fact that we would use separation of church being specifically orthodox or Christian language and state. But you can't separate faith from the state. You can't separate faith commitments from teaching. You can't separate truth claims. And if we would say that faith, religion, believing in God, commitment to a sacred text, of course, I'm not just speaking as a Christian here, just as someone as that being one of the highest ideals that a human could have kind of a telos or an orientation to something outside of themselves. And I can't imagine education happening in any meaningful way without that. And so the question isn't, is this going to happen. It's how it's going to happen and what's going to be taught.

[Kyle Worley]

Yeah, yeah. I think that's dead on. I mean, there is, like Richard John Newhouse argued, there is no such thing as a naked public square. I'm of the opinion that neutrality doesn't exist. There is no disinterested objectivity. Objectivity. And I don't hold that for political or social reasons. That's theologically grounded. In my view. There's really only two fundamental ways of being in the world. And in keeping with Scripture, I think you see this in Romans 1 through Romans 5. Specifically, you see in the Adam Christ typology of First Corinthians. But I think those are explicit examples. It's in the architecture. It's tectonic, so to speak. For the entire story of the Bible, you're either in Adam or in Christ. And if you're in Adam, you're actively suppressing the truth. If you're in Christ, you're faithfully acknowledging the truth. Not perfectly faithfully. Okay, so there's two ways. You're either actively suppressing religious truth or you're faithfully pursuing faithful worship. Those are the two options of being in the world. There's no third way. There's not a middle ground. So if that's the case, then every person who moves throughout the world is operating with some degree, conscious or unconsciously of influence given their fundamental status in the world, their fundamental way of being in the world. Now, there might be ways in which they are consciously doing that. Like, I think hanging pride flags in a classroom is a conscious way of actively suppressing the truth that is known. I'm not saying that that is why anybody would be motivated to do that. I'm simply saying that is an expression of consciously suppressing the truth that God has revealed in his Word and in the world. Then there are subconscious ways where that is happening that are unknown to us. So whether consciously or unconsciously, everybody is moving religiously through the world. And there are only two religious postures. Faithful, not perfect, but faithful pursuit of true religion and true worship, or unfaithful, inactive suppression or active suppression of the truth, of true worship. Those are the two fundamental ways of being. In that case, every classroom that exists, public school, private school, homeschool, unschool, on the farm, in the house, down at your local, you know, your local independent school district, whatever, every single classroom, every single space, every single environment, every single inch of the world is religiously geared.

[Jen Wilkin]

Before we dive in, I wonder if it might be Helpful for each of us to sort of say what we see as the role of public schools. Is that a fair place to start?

[Kyle Worley]

Can we, can we start broader than that? Can we say what's the role of education?

[Jen Wilkin]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Kyle Worley]

I mean, I. I think the role of education is to form individuals in keeping with being a productive participants in the life of a virtuous society.

[Jen Wilkin]

Jt, Would you add anything to that?

[JT English]

I don't think so. I like that.

[Jen Wilkin]

Yeah. And I would. Would you describe education as a human right? I know it's often described as a human right. Would you describe it that way?

[Narrator/Announcer]

No.

[Jen Wilkin]

You wouldn't?

[Kyle Worley]

No, I would say that education is

[Narrator/Announcer]

not a human right.

[Kyle Worley]

I would say that education is inevitable. I would say public education is a gift of a free society. And I would say virtuous education is the responsibility of any wise person. So I would say.

[Jen Wilkin]

Say that again. Say that again. I want to hear it again.

[Kyle Worley]

Education is inevitable.

[Jen Wilkin]

Can I ask a question related to that before you move on? The fact that education is inevitable, doesn't that mean. Wouldn't it follow that a well conceived education is a human right?

[Kyle Worley]

No, I don't believe that. I don't believe that.

[Jen Wilkin]

So, like, if physical growth is inevitable, wouldn't it follow that a human right to good nutrition, to that those things are human rights. And maybe we're thinking about it differently. I'm just trying to. I'm. This is an important point for me to understand.

[Kyle Worley]

Yeah, that's a good question. I would say that I do not believe that education is a human right. If by right we mean something that must be facilitated by the state.

[Jen Wilkin]

I'm not. I don't think I'm even to that point yet. I'm just talking about. Would you say that in the doctrine of man maybe is the way to say it? Is there room for the idea of education as a common good that should be sought because we are capable of learning, we will learn. Do you see what I'm saying?

[Kyle Worley]

Yeah, I would say that. I would see it as.

[Jen Wilkin]

I'm not trying to trap you. I'm really just trying to sort this out.

[Kyle Worley]

And I'm also trying to discover it along my way. I don't know that I'm much more comfortable with the idea of it being a common good, that language, than it being a human right.

[Jen Wilkin]

Tell me what bothers you about the language of human right? I really need to learn.

[Kyle Worley]

In the west, we particularly think about rights as facilitated by the legislative or judicial operations of the state in which are citizens. And I think that that is like, so I, I, I'm typically not super like a, I'm not somebody who's going to be really, really eager to talk about rights.

[Jen Wilkin]

Okay, okay, so, but if so, what would you describe it? Let me give me an example of what you would call a human right. Or would you not want to even use that language at all?

[Kyle Worley]

I, I'd be reluctant to talk about hu, not, not because I don't understand the, the, the way in which they're often used, but because I'm

[Narrator/Announcer]

of a

[Kyle Worley]

biblical and theological grid over a political and a social one.

[Jen Wilkin]

Okay, okay, so that's fair. I'm not uncomfortable with the language, but because I think I know that in converse, and you probably know this too, but in conversations around the role of education in a society, if you look at like Islamic states, one of the prime rights that is denied to women is education. And so the pushback on that is education is a human right for all. And I mean, even in the history of the United States, women didn't receive equal educational access until fairly recently. And so I think the language of human right doesn't land on my ears as being heavy handed, but I may have it in a different context in my thinking than you do. Like, if you withhold something from someone to control them, would that be a definition of what a human right is? Or would you define that something in another way?

[Kyle Worley]

I don't know that education can be withheld.

[Jen Wilkin]

Well, sure it can. I mean, you can, you can withhold literacy, you can withhold, you know, I mean, who, if you're a, the state.

[Kyle Worley]

Right, but see, I don't, I don't fundamentally see education as the responsibility of the state. So I don't see it as fundamentally the thing they can or can choose, can choose or choose not to withhold.

[Jen Wilkin]

Jt, do you have any thoughts?

[JT English]

Well, I kind of want to. I think what you guys are getting at is important. It feels kind of esoteric and theoretical to maybe what our context is. I mean, you guys know that I'm a huge fan of Ben Sasse. Ben Sasse is a former United States senator from, from Nebraska, President, University of Florida. And I recently watched he's also, this is sad note dying of pancreatic cancer. So he's been making some podcast rounds and doing a lot of talks. And I think from a place people are finding it very interesting because they know that he's dying. He's not running for office. He's been having a lot of comments recently on American public education specifically, he Did a talk at the Manhattan Institute recently, and I think what you guys are getting at, he made some. Some comments about the role specifically in American life, because it's one thing to talk about. Is this a fundamental human right? I'm not sure how that's going to help us get. Maybe it's going to help us get to what we're trying to get at. But he made some comments that I thought were helpful for our context specifically, and it relates to the history of public education in America, giving very broad strokes. He talked about the original instinct of American education was kind of a Protestant instinct. And this is, Kyle, what you were talking about. Abraham Kuyper talks a lot about sphere sovereignty.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

Sovereignty.

[JT English]

Whose responsibility is it to educate? Is a question, Kuyper argues, primarily families and churches. So then the question is, what is the role of a school to educate Americans in the colonies and early in statehood developed public school systems. Catholics originally saw this as a big concern. They were worried about this. This is why you see Catholic parochial schools and parish schools spreading throughout the country.

[Jen Wilkin]

But then again, John, that predates even. Sorry, that even predates American history. That's been the role of the church. Yeah, that's right. Go ahead.

[JT English]

Yeah. But specifically for our Texas conversation in the 1950s, John Dewey. It was funny because I didn't know this history until Ben Sass started talking about it. He really sought to secularize American public education in a way that Ben Sass said, everybody's story has a villain, and John Dewey is my villain.

[Jen Wilkin]

But does he like the decimal system?

[JT English]

Yeah, maybe he does the Dewey decimal system, and that'll take you back to

[Jen Wilkin]

those cards and trying to sterilize anybody

[JT English]

panicking because the librarian is yelling at you, or is that just my story? Is that my villain? Yeah.

[Narrator/Announcer]

So

[JT English]

I think it's good to think broadly. Is it the role of the state to educate? The question isn't is it the role? The question? That's what we have right now. It's what is currently happening. And since we have that, I think it's right for Christians to ask, since that's the model and that's the model that 80 plus percent of Americans are currently using, how do we best then do that? Yeah, I don't know that we're going to change what's going on in Libya through this podcast.

[Jen Wilkin]

Right. And. But so, like, I would just say the way that I conceive of the role of public school, like not seeking to go back and say, well, it was started wrong, so we should dump the whole thing. But to say, kind of like what you're saying is like, well, we have it. What are its strengths? What are its weaknesses? I view the good of public school as being that. And this is, I want you to hear, this is an ideal. It's not a current reality. I believe in it as an ideal because it helps the least among us to receive education they wouldn't otherwise have access to. But I also recognize that the quality of the education that the least among us receive in that system is heavily dependent on the impact that those of us who have more options are willing to invest in that space. Does that. Did I say that clearly enough? So, in other words, so. And I've argued that this is. I'm on record on this. Like, I understand that depending on where you live, the quality of the public schools may be vastly different than it is for someone else. And actually, what we're talking about today in Texas, we. We have a pretty decent public school system. I mean, it can be, you know, place to place. But, but generally speaking, if you put your child into a public school in Texas, particularly in a, In a, In a, an area that's adjacent to or in a. Well, not, I would say, in a. In a suburb somewhere, your kids are going to get a decent education.

[JT English]

I think the question is. I'm not saying you're wrong there. The question is, what do we mean by decent education?

[Jen Wilkin]

Yeah, right, right, right. But I'm saying, like, they're going to learn math, science, grammar, you know, I mean, and there are. I'm sure everyone is listening to this, going like, no, they're not.

[JT English]

But I think the question is, should they learn virtue?

[Jen Wilkin]

Well, right, right. And I think the answer is yes. I think all three of us would agree that the answer is yes. And that's gonna, that's gonna impact the way that we talk about what we're gonna talk about today. But, but my, My stance on this is that whether your public schools are a place you can put your children or not, your involvement in public schools is good for your community.

[Kyle Worley]

Yeah. And I would say part of our, Part of anybody's involvement, at least in the way the public school system is set up in their local schools is by virtue of the fact that they pay taxes, they help subsidize, I mean, largely subsidize this activities of the schools. So in involvement in activity, like I would say is there are some that have high levels of involvement, meaning they, like, work at the school. There might be some that have other kind of lower gradations of involvement. Their Their kids go to school there or they're on the pta. Then there are general level involvement where the, you know, tax dollars that you pay subsidize the activity of that school district. All of those are mechanisms of involvement, right?

[Jen Wilkin]

Yeah, yeah, I'm, but I'm talking more about, you know, active involvement like hey, I'm volunteering or I'm sending something to, on, on to make the teachers know that they were valued on teacher appreciation Week, or I'm showing up at school board meetings. And those are things that I would love to see. And I'm curious, like with the current conversation of the. What's being offered in Texas schools in 2030, do you guys know like how

[Kyle Worley]

we got here, how we got to

[Jen Wilkin]

the, to this being instituted, like the

[JT English]

specific thing that the Texas Board of Education did? Yeah, I don't know.

[Kyle Worley]

There was a, There was, I know that this was a part of a larger conversation on what, what, what is the substance of what is being read and studied. This is a, this is a deliverance in general, in general for Texas public education that this is a part of, part of the, the way that the Bible reading portion has been positioned by advocates in Texas has been around literacy and kind of the classic works more broadly. So it hasn't just been like, it

[Jen Wilkin]

hasn't been the Christian parents rallying and saying let's force public reading of the Bible into public schools.

[Kyle Worley]

No, that hasn't been a part.

[Jen Wilkin]

That is my sense. I just wanted to make. Huh.

[JT English]

But if it was, it would still be okay.

[Kyle Worley]

Maybe it should have been.

[Jen Wilkin]

Maybe it should have been.

[JT English]

Can I just say one more thing that's kind of coming to mind? I think I want to be clear about what I was trying to say a moment ago. I think it's important to understand the history of American public education and I'm going to give some very broad strokes. Horace Mann, mid-1800s, developed the American public school system broadly on American Protestant assumptions, basically saying we want to scale what's going on in churches and families for a, for, for a broader populace because

[Jen Wilkin]

it's populaces to be educated.

[JT English]

Correct? Yeah, but, but that then meant kind of with an American Protestant cultural assumptions that largely. And we're thinking about a hundred year trajectory here the next hundred years. John Dewey largely says those assumptions are wrong. A good education involves social skills with secular assumptions. And that's what we've been living in for the last hundred years. And so that was why I was kind of poking a little bit on regard. I mean, I live in Colorado I've got very different questions and assumptions and challenges with this conversation that you guys are having or that we're having, but different than Texas. But I think that's why we need to ask the question, what does a good education even mean? What does it mean to receive a good education from an American public school? Because based upon the 1850 standard no Texas school is living up to if

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[Kyle Worley]

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[Narrator/Announcer]

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[Jen Wilkin]

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. And I mean, and also, are you wanting to distinguish between to the Christian, what does it mean? Or for the common good, what does it mean? That's probably where this is going to get a little fuzzy.

[Kyle Worley]

I think so, because I'm going to say that the Christian definition outweighs any conception of the alternative.

[Jen Wilkin]

Well, I mean, I would too, but I would say that, like I can place my kids in public school knowing that they're going to get the Christian education that they need at home.

[JT English]

What about the Muslim kid that isn't. Why should he not. Why, why would you deprive him of a, of, of what would you consider a demonstrably better education?

[Jen Wilkin]

No, no, no. I do think that there should be virtue form it. I'm, I'm, I don't think we have an argument about that. We probably have an argument about, you know, similar to the way that we talked about the ten Commandments. We have some differences in the way that we see the why, but I think the what is probably the same. Do you want to just get into it?

[Kyle Worley]

Yeah, I think our audience is probably waiting.

[Jen Wilkin]

I mean, we're 26 minutes in, so they're like, come on guys, wait a second.

[Kyle Worley]

Should, should, you know, public schools require Bible reading Christians? You know, I mean, my answer is, My answer is resounding. Yes, obviously, duh. Have him read the whole thing. I mean, come on. I mean, no, I mean, I would say for, I'm gonna say for three reasons. Yes. And then here they are. The first is. I'm gonna, I'm just gonna make this a general literacy reason. The first one. The first one is that to me it is almost inconceivable to think about a well rounded education that does not include the most significantly influential text in the history of the world. And there is no dispute that the Bible has exercised a degree of influence in the life of the world that is way beyond anything else. That's true globally. It is incontestably true for the western world. And so the idea that you could have a well rounded literate education just at a literacy level and have no Bible engagement, that to me seems to be inconceivable. That's the literacy reason, the formation reason. The Bible is the greatest work of philosophy written. Peter Kreeft says the book of Ecclesiastes is the most significant philosophical work in the history of the world. And I think there's a great, I think that is a very strong argument. So not only has the Bible, does it have a literacy component, it has an ideas component. I haven't even moved to the question of character in virtue formation just at an ideas level. So literacy ideas, I would say it has been consequential to the history of ideas. You do not have the western world as it currently stands. You, you, you don't have, I don't think, you don't have little girls learning how to read apart from the influence of the Bible in the western world. So there, there's an ideas component. The third is virtue Formation if the law of the Lord is perfect and the the righteous one meditates on it, Day would see it as a real way of impoverishing my neighbor to not help subsidize their access to the Bible if it is not being provided in their current domestic and or religious environments. So to me it is love of neighbor to say if I'm going to help fund something, I'd like to help fund something that puts them getting greatest proximate access to things that I think will produce the greatest likelihood of, of personal and or corporate blessing. And I think the Bible is one of those artifacts. So that's my three, those are my three reasons why I am, why I say yes, public schools should require Bible reading whether or not they're run by Christians or not. They should require Bible reading for those three reasons.

[Jen Wilkin]

Okay, jt, what about you?

[JT English]

Yeah, I agree wholeheartedly. I, and I think I'd state it kind of as strongly as Kyle does. And this is coming from somebody who

[Narrator/Announcer]

did, by the way.

[JT English]

Wait, everybody here went to public school, right?

[Kyle Worley]

Yeah, I'm a public school kid.

[Jen Wilkin]

Great.

[JT English]

I don't learn a darn thing in public school.

[Kyle Worley]

And also. Okay, okay, so that was probably, I'm gonna say some of that was maybe user error.

[JT English]

There's no doubt about that.

[Kyle Worley]

Okay, but so we all went to public school. Let me also just say for the record, all three of us are at churches where we, we support public school. We have public educators as part of our ministries and families. We love public educators. Nothing precludes them from faithful. We are so glad that public Christians are in public education.

[Jen Wilkin]

Yes.

[Kyle Worley]

I just want to say all the caveats. JT is not going. None of us are going to say public education. Christians get out of public education. None of us are going to say that Christians shouldn't be meaningfully engaged in a leadership level in public education. So for whatever you want to say about this episode in the comments, let it be known.

[JT English]

Okay.

[Jen Wilkin]

Now jt, we love public school. Okay, go ahead, jt.

[JT English]

Yeah, I don't know that I have any more meaningful points other than just to kind of dive into. Double click on a couple things. I mean, to have Bible literacy, you don't have to be a Christian to have Bible literacy. Bible literacy is going to help you be a well formed citizen of Western civilization and just a well formed person. Schools form souls. And so for souls to be formed in a way that I believe leads them towards truth, beauty and goodness is something that I'm unapologetically for and committed to. Nor do I think that, and this will be an interesting question. Nor do I think that if Bibles are taught in school, I don't think that means, therefore, the Book of Mormon needs to be, or the Quran needs to be, or other religions or the

[Kyle Worley]

Bhagavad Gita or the Analects, because I

[JT English]

don't know that diversity of texts necessarily is, is needed. I'm not saying, I'm not saying I would be opposed to it. I'm not saying if this, then that has to be the case in this conversation. I think, I mean, to be culturally literate in the 21st century, I mean, whether you're talking about understanding our founding documents or understanding Marvel comics, so much of kind of what Kyle talked about there as it relates to just being a philosopher is grounded in the historic Christian faith as found in scriptures delivered to us. So, yeah, unapologetically for it. Think it's a good thing. Want to subsidize it. Want to do it however we can. I'm a big fan and I'll just

[Kyle Worley]

say, I'll just say, hey, if you're, you know, I'm here in North Texas, if you're in the Richardson area and you listen to this and you're. And your school needs Bibles for their kids, we are at Mosaic Church in Richardson, Texas. We will buy every one of your kiddos a Bible. We'll buy every one of your teachers a Bible. You just let us know, we're on the record if we can help buy any of these Bibles. We are right here. We're ready for that.

[Jen Wilkin]

Make sure it's the NIV 1984. My favorite.

[JT English]

Hey, I just thought of one more thing I want to say. Thanks for bearing with me. Let me tell you what my concern is here. I think this should happen. But I mentioned this earlier.

[Jen Wilkin]

I want us to talk about this, but I want us to talk about should it be then I want us to talk about what should be taught and then what are the problems associated with trying to teach it.

[JT English]

So I think the problem. Let me tell you my caveat. Maybe getting your third point there, Ben, but just to kind of make a note here, my concern isn't that it's going to be taught. It's actually who is going to be teaching it and how they're going to be teaching it.

[Jen Wilkin]

Yes, absolutely.

[JT English]

So it's not the content, it's the method. Again, I'm thankful for it. But I believe, believe that this kind of gets into Abraham Kuyper. If you're familiar with him he had a concept called sphere sovereignty. And what sphere is responsible to do what? And to compel the government to do something that's outside of their sphere, which is to teach faith, I think he would find problematic. Not because he doesn't, he wasn't a, he was a committed Christian in every single way, shape and form. He just believed that primarily that this is a family and church task. And so one of the beautiful things about. And again, if we're, this is maybe getting into your earlier conversation, stepping back. What is a well formed citizen? What is a person and what does it mean to educate them if families were doing a better job broadly. And again, hear me, I'm speaking in theoretical terms, not actual terms of like you've got an 80 hour week job and you've got four kids and this might not even be necessary. Right. If, if, if we were teaching, discipling, raising up our kids with a, with a good education, the American public school system might not exist as it currently does at all.

[Jen Wilkin]

Okay, so I think you guys left out something. I agree with point number one. I agree with point number two. I don't really need point number three after point number one and point number two. But I know you guys care a lot about that based on our Ten Commandments episode. But I think also, yeah, I was surprised you guys didn't mention that you needed to understand history. Yeah, it's a reference point for understanding, not just, yeah, yeah, literature. Like it's not just Bible literacy, it's, it's historical literacy for anyone living in the West. So I would just add that. And I know I'm not dunking on you guys. I'm saying I think that was something we needed to mention as well. And so I think about, you know, I have an English degree. I studied as part of my English degree. We, we compared what we were reading to passages of Scripture. You can't not do that if you're going to understand English literature, Western literature, it. And so even things like, oh man, that guy's the salt of the earth or hey, judge not, you know, or don't cast your pearls.

[JT English]

You said earlier we're going to fall on our swords.

[Jen Wilkin]

That's right. All of these things that we take turn the other cheek, don't. You know, all of these things that we just use in our everyday vernacular.

[JT English]

So much of it is coming from scripture, cannot stand.

[Jen Wilkin]

Yeah, you can't understand Shakespeare, you can't understand, you certainly can't understand John Stein, Beck, you know, all these mag I'm reading Hannah Coulter right now by Wendell Berry. Well, don't even bother opening up a Wendell Berry book. You know, you're going to understand some of it. But there's a, there's a scriptural illusion about every four sentences in, in his writing. And so as a lover of literature, so set aside, take, take off my Christian hat for a second, which I know you guys probably hate me saying, but like, as a lover of literature, I want people to learn the Bible. As a Christian, I think that learning what the Bible says is, is formative now. It can be malformative depending on the mouthpiece. I remember being taught we. One of the things we had to study as part of early American lit was Jonathan Edwards sermon Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God. And when I tell you that Jonathan Edwards was presented as a bad guy in that lecture, I just can't say it strongly enough. You know, but the thing is, is I had enough other conversations as a Christian in dialogue with other Christians and with my family that I was able to immediately pick up on that. And so I'm still not sorry that I encountered that sermon for the first time in a secular setting because I was having dialogue. And so I think anytime we think about this conversation in terms of like, how does it impact my child if my child is in the public schools? Even if something is mistaught, there's an opportunity to show where those gaps are that helps a child develop critical thinking skills. But I think as a, you know, from a, from a literacy standpoint, from a Bible literacy standpoint, and from a historical, cultural literacy standpoint by bringing the Bible back into Texas public schools schools, it's actually, it's a reclamation of something that is necessary. It's not like a new thing being forced into the system. It's something that I think was, that was set aside because of secularization in an over correction, in an attempt to make sure that public schools were a place for people who are coming from different religious backgrounds, as I do think they should be. But I also think the Bible belongs in the curriculum. But then that brings me to the next point. When I saw what they were actually putting in, I was like, what did you guys feel that way?

[Kyle Worley]

I mean, there were parts of it that I was glad to see. Like for example, I, I figured that they would include Ecclesiastes. I figured that they would include the

[Jen Wilkin]

wisdom, something from the wisdom tradition, but it's almost all from the wisdom tradition.

[Kyle Worley]

It is that or the Gospel tradition. I mean, you get like Luke is in there. You get Matthew, certainly.

[Jen Wilkin]

Tell everybody. Read it. Read it out for everybody. Let people know what they have outlined.

[Kyle Worley]

Right now is grade four is Luke 14, 7, 11. Grade five is Exodus 3. That's the burning bush, Exodus 14, the parting of the Red Sea. Grade six is Matthew 6, 25, 34. That's on anxiety. That's from the Sermon on the mount. Grade 7 is Psalm 23, the Lord is my shepherd. Matthew 5, the Beatitudes. Grade 8 is Ecclesiastes 3. That's everything. There is a season for this.

[Jen Wilkin]

Honestly, who doesn't in middle school? Doesn't everybody need to hear that everything's meaningless?

[JT English]

Senioritis.

[Kyle Worley]

Early high school English is Luke 15, parable of the prodigal. Mid level English is Job. And then final English is Genesis 2:3, which is Adam and Eve in the fall.

[Jen Wilkin]

That one just broke me.

[Kyle Worley]

You thought that what, you thought that that would come sooner or later or

[Jen Wilkin]

you were surprised to see and also Genesis 1.

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Come on.

[Kyle Worley]

People, you know, know the reason they're avoiding Genesis 1 is because they don't want to get into the science. They don't want to get into the science.

[Jen Wilkin]

That's fair. That's fair. Okay.

[Kyle Worley]

So they can avoid the, the creation versus evolution conversation. If you skip Genesis 1, you get right into the narrative. So that actually made a ton of sense to me. And I would also say I felt like as somebody who is very much in favor of this, I actually, I really appreciated the tack that they took with Genesis here because I felt like, okay, I don't really know that I want a, you know, a, a junior level, you know, English course to be, you know, spending their all the time on the Bible going, oh, I'm for evolution, you know.

[Jen Wilkin]

You know, yeah.

[Kyle Worley]

Three juniors going, yeah, but what about

[Jen Wilkin]

holding the base Evolution?

[Kyle Worley]

It's like you've just trial. Yes.

[Jen Wilkin]

Yeah.

[Kyle Worley]

You've wasted all the time on, you know, did God create the world in seven literal days or did he not?

[Jen Wilkin]

Yeah, that's fair.

[Kyle Worley]

Versus getting into the actual narrative flow that I think is aimed a little bit more at the. At least where the emphasis is in the story. I actually thought this represented a really sophisticated selection by whoever was making the decision.

[Jen Wilkin]

Okay, what do you think, jt?

[JT English]

Yeah, overall I think it's great. I actually think it's a really good selection. Agree with Kyle's Genesis take. I'm looking at it again. I think it's. They get into high school, it's First Corinthians 13. Is that what you see, Kyle? No, mine says they get. It feels like it says high schoolers read First Corinthians 13, a love chapter, which. It's like, okay, like, there's a few selections that feel a little.

[Jen Wilkin]

We're probably gonna hear that one.

[JT English]

Yeah, like Bible roulette. Like, let's just kind of pick and choose. And that kind of sounds like a fluffy one. Without maybe understanding Paul's greater context of what is going on in Corinthians. I wish they would read Revelation and maybe do our podcast alongside of it. I mean, get them really apocalyptic going into their senior year. But overall, I think it's a really good selection. I, I didn't have any, any qualms with, with it.

[Kyle Worley]

You know what they don't have in there? They don't have the birth of Christ, the death of Christ, the resurrection of Christ. I haven't seen that on any of the lists that I've seen.

[Jen Wilkin]

So this is, this is what I'm getting to. They. I, I think that children would be better served by learning. I realize that it's dicey because it can get into proselytizing or anti. Pro. Tizing pretty fast. So I want to recognize the difficulties of this. But if you teach the Bible as literature, okay, so let's say there's someone who's able to do that from an evenhanded spirit space. That's from a, from a, from a bi. From a literacy standpoint, people need the meta narrative. And that's not, that's what I don't see in here. And so like, for example, the Harry Potter book, the, the, the things that kids are going to be reading are trading on the meta narrative.

[Kyle Worley]

They are for sure.

[Jen Wilkin]

And E.T. go back and watch E.T. you know, he comes down from heaven, he heals people, he ascends back to heaven. Like the, the story of ET Is the story of the life of Christ. So anyway, that to me was the, was the thing that it was missing. And I think they need it early. I think they need it when they first start to get interested in young adult fiction, which is so commonly young adult or children's level fiction. Like, think about how many of the great fantasy cycles of literature that, that you've exposed your children to are, are, are repeating meta narrative. And, and I would rather that, that children not be seniors in high school by the time they start to potentially be able to piece that together.

[Kyle Worley]

I agree with you, and I think that's a point well made. I think that, I mean, if we're just spitballing in terms of what is the most aspirational ideal I've got some ideas. Texas. You can email me. It's widely available online. I'd be happy to come on as a totally free consultant for you. All three of us.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

Will.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Would.

[Kyle Worley]

No, but I, I do think the metanarrative component is. When I've seen the breakdowns and the various outlines of what they have sequenced out for this, I can see what they're doing, which is they're. They. They are trying to treat the Bible as a literary document. They are trying to address passages that have reverberations through other cultural artifacts that come after them. Like the, like the, the structure of the parable of the prodigal son is. Becomes so commonplace as a way of organizing a story. They can see like, okay, we can just kind of. This can reverberate out and people can start to see like this is where it came from. I get that. I do wish that there was a more like creation, fall, redemption, consummation kind of structure or that they even had passages that leaned in that way. But it does seem like the way they have it is a lot closer to like a, you know, more of a segmented, literary, moralistic kind of approach to it. And I'm gonna say, which is virtue

[Jen Wilkin]

formation for a secular space, a hundred percent.

[Kyle Worley]

As a pastor that is interested in deep discipleship for the people in his congregation, this is not how I would break down a Bible reading plan or a scope and sequence as a.

[Jen Wilkin]

But we'll take it.

[Kyle Worley]

As a citizen of a country that has completely lost any shared moral vocabulary and is really at the tipping point of going into. To oblivion. I'm grateful for anybody that's throwing any life raft anywhere that is broadly tied to the moral tradition that's at the foundation of our society. And this is why for me, I am in like, I'm in full favor of this and unapologetically so, because to me we are. I'm not apocalyptic in this regard, but Alasdair McIntyre was saying in the late 70s and early 80s, a society that does not have a shared moral vocabulary is just, it's just, you've set your watch and now you can just watch it and it might be 24 hours, it might be 22 hours, it might be 24 minutes, but set your watch. Because if a society continues without any shared moral vocabulary, it's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when it will crumble. And we are at that place now. And so anybody that's out there saying, you know what, is it possible that we should start Trying to ground ourselves with some sort of shared moral vocabulary. I am in favor of that.

[Jen Wilkin]

Well, and I think this is reflective of the work that Tom Holland has done and others, you know, and those are, he was, I don't know if he's a Christian now or yet, but he was coming at that from a, from a he of the failure of, of the secular experiment. Right. And I think we're seeing. I have a relatively new friend who is, and I may have mentioned this on another podcast, but he is a professor at a large university not far from my house, and he was tasked by that large state run school to teach the Bible as literature as part of his offerings. And he said, I have every kind of student in my class you can imagine, like, every kind. He's got trans students, he's got students from different religions, he's got atheists, he's got agnostics. And, and he said what I did not expect. And he's been faithful to the task. He has not tried to proselytize. You know, he has, he, he, he, he has a, he has a PhD in medieval literature. He just wants to do what he can with the space that he has as. And he said, I expected hostility. Now, granted, these are kids who signed up for the class, but he said, I found so much openness, like they did not come in with their guard up. And he said, I had to ask the question, have we moved from a place in our culture where some Christians are still bracing for that response and that response is actually not what they're going to be met with, with. So I thought that was fascinating.

[Kyle Worley]

Yeah, I agree. Gosh, we're at the end of our time and I want to keep talking about this because it is such an important topic. I, I would just say, do we disagree on anything? I don't.

[Jen Wilkin]

Yeah, I think the same, Well, I think the same thing that I get hung up on with the Ten Commandments, I would get hung up on here is that I, I say it, I don't think, well, I said it in those two people can go back and listen, but it's kind of the same thing. It's like, I don't think that those were supposed to be posted without comment. And the way that it was all playing out had to do with like, a parent can pay for it and then you have to post it, but you can't say a word about it. And to me, I'm like, what are we doing? That feels, it feels like another version of the pride flag hanging in the classroom.

[JT English]

And let's just take that version of the argument. Here's what I want to hear you say. What makes that bad? The two claims to truth.

[Jen Wilkin]

I would say the. I think it's a fear based approach. And I think that this is a more genuine way for virtue formation to potentially occur by contact with the scriptures because it is justifiable from a curriculum standpoint. So to me, it's not as meat fisted, I guess, is the way I would say it.

[Kyle Worley]

I do want to just ask a clarifying question just for our audience and for me. You're not saying that the pride flag and the Ten Commandments hanging up in the same room are the same thing?

[Jen Wilkin]

No, but I'm saying that the execution of having them hung in the room can be done in a similar manner. Okay, so you're saying they can in a coercive manner.

[Kyle Worley]

Okay, all right. I understand what you're saying.

[Jen Wilkin]

And to me, this is not. Putting the Bible into a literature curriculum is not coercive. It's responsible.

[Kyle Worley]

So you're not disagreeing with the idea of putting the Bible in as a part of literature curriculum. So I want to be clear about that because I. Because there is a segment of the Internet that does want to deliberately misrepresent what you're saying. And I'm trying to make sure.

[Jen Wilkin]

Well, they will. No matter what I say,

[Kyle Worley]

I want to make sure that we. Because there was a part of it that I. That you said that I was like, I don't like the way that sounded. And I want to make sure that I'm hearing it too, as your friend and colleague. Okay, you are. You're not saying that the pride flag and the Ten Commandments are the same thing. Thing.

[Jen Wilkin]

No.

[Kyle Worley]

Okay. You're also not saying that hanging up, hanging them up in the same room would necessarily have the same effect.

[Jen Wilkin]

No.

[Kyle Worley]

You're saying.

[Jen Wilkin]

No, I mean it. I mean it could.

[Kyle Worley]

It. It could. But you're not saying that it would.

[Jen Wilkin]

Right. Okay.

[Kyle Worley]

You're saying that the motivation to hang the pride flag and the motivation to hang the Ten Commandments could come from a similar place.

[Jen Wilkin]

Same. Yes. That is.

[JT English]

That's what I want to figure out.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Out.

[Jen Wilkin]

Yeah. Like, tell me, like, do you like that for Pride Month everybody wants you to fly a pride flag?

[JT English]

No, but it's. It. But it's not because I'm worried about being coerced. It's because I think it's false.

[Kyle Worley]

Yeah.

[JT English]

I'm happy to be coarse to things that are true.

[Kyle Worley]

I don't want JT to push me but if a car was coming right at me, please me out of the way.

[Jen Wilkin]

Two episodes on this. So if anyone's interested in hearing this argument continue, just help yourself.

[JT English]

No, but I, I want to learn here, Jen. Or at least I want to interact just for a second on this. This is not like, I don't want to be pejorative and I don't want to be a dead horse. You helped me. Thinking about, like, some parenting strategies for my kids years ago. Moving from like, you know, age appropriate ways that parents engage with their kids is like, you move from a bit of a dictatorial posture of we're going to tell you what's right and wrong to a bit of a coaching posture of like, hey, I'm here with you. I'm going to tell you what's right and wrong. But you're on the field and then

[Jen Wilkin]

you're sitting there hoping that they're actually going to ask you a question. Yes.

[JT English]

Yeah, that's right. Formation necessarily means that the teacher in the room is authoritative and is being. You use the word coercive, I wouldn't use the same word. But they're being formative. They're telling you what right and wrong is. They're telling you what is virtuous, what is not virtuous, what is two plus two equals four. And if they're. I hope they coerce me into good math. I hope they coerce me. Why would we not want them to do that? When it comes to virtue or when it comes to faith or when it comes to religion?

[Jen Wilkin]

I think what I'm saying is there is a better way to do that. There is a way that is sensitive to the fact that not everyone in the school is coming from the same religious background, which I think is important because the taxpayer dollars that fund public education come from people of different religions. So as a citizen, I would say that I know you hate that.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

This.

[Jen Wilkin]

But just trying to.

[Kyle Worley]

I don't that I hate it.

[JT English]

I don't that I hate it. I'm just trying to have like the logical.

[Jen Wilkin]

What I would say is I don't want the pride flag or the Ten Commandments up in, in the classroom. Because when you post the Ten Commandments without, especially without comment now, if they want to put them in the curriculum, love it.

[JT English]

So for you, it's pedagogical, it's not content.

[Jen Wilkin]

Yes, I think. I think yes. But I'm not sure. Will you say more words around that so I can make sure Kyle is watching the time and he's dying.

[JT English]

It's a matter of how, how it's being taught. Like the.

[Jen Wilkin]

I think there are ways that are more sensitive to what public school is and does that still accomplish that actually accomplish a better outcome than to simply adopt the tactics of the people that we hate and that's people that we hate as strong. You see what I'm saying?

[Kyle Worley]

The opposition ideology.

[Jen Wilkin]

Yes, yes. And the reason, I think one of the reasons that Christians have been so irritated by the way that like for just to keep the, the, the same example Pride Month has played out is because they're beating us at our own game. That's what we used to do to everybody.

[JT English]

Right. Well, that's why I was even trying to get back into the history of American public education. Is it used to be Protestant kind of American cultural literacy, but for the last hundred years, it's been social, secular democracy.

[Jen Wilkin]

And this is a question from ignorance that I'm about to ask you. But the role that Dewey played, was that in any way a response to the shifting demographics of the US I

[JT English]

think he would argue it was largely anti Catholicism and anti anti Christian faith. He was, he was basically saying Christianity is malformation. We need to give them democracy, not Christianity. Diversity is the highest virtue.

[Kyle Worley]

Okay, yeah, you know what? This is something that we were. We're going to keep coming back to this because it is worth talking about, you know, and it's worth talking about at this moment. And I want to. I very rarely do this, but if it's okay as a point of personal privilege, I want to take us home as the last word on the episode.

[Jen Wilkin]

Yeah, do it.

[Kyle Worley]

And I'm not speaking for JT and Jen here. I'm not. I'm speaking for myself. And you've heard what we've had to say about this. I just really. I'm convinced that we're at a real hinge point civilizationally and culturally, how we decide to address those problems. There are a lot of faithful routes forward, and that's what wisdom is required. But the idea of not addressing them or avoiding them is no longer viable. It's not going to work. And we all feel this. It's like a pressure cooker that's been building and building and building. This is exacerbated. It's not polite to say out loud. It is exacerbated by the fact that there are religious groups, groups that do not play well with democracy.

[Jen Wilkin]

Yeah.

[Kyle Worley]

It has been shown in Central and Western Europe very clearly that a secular society is not enough to hold back controlling religious narratives. So if you're skeptical about maybe some of these arguments on the role of Christianity in a society. Let me tell you the pathway forward. There are three routes. One is we can continue to retain a secular society for a little while longer. You may think that is a morally persuasive option. I will tell you I don't think that it is a reality for much longer. Then there is something that is broadly Judeo Christian. That's a route forward that's viable and it's time tested. The other route is a route of Islam. Those are the three pathways forward. We're not having to like wonder about that. Central and Western Europe have already shown. These are the routes. That's worth considering. It doesn't mean you have to answer the question that how I would answer it, or JT would answer it or as Jin would answer it. But you should begin to think really clearly and convictionally. But what does it mean to pursue the common good of a society around you if the three routes available to you are those three routes? I think it's worth asking. And I think that the churchmen and women in Central and Western Europe would tell you better to ask that now than to ask it 50 years too late. So we're going to keep talking about these issues together. We've got some great episodes coming up. Did you hear anything about pastors and women over the course of the summer? Well, guess what? On our next episode, we're going to be asking the question, are we women pastors biblical? I wonder what we'll say.

[Jen Wilkin]

What will we say?

[Kyle Worley]

We hope you enjoyed the discussion. Grace and peace.