B (2:56)

Now, you know, my first question is going to be a very interesting one. Why should anyone listen to this conversation?

A (3:07)

I think that, like, you've Noted in the life that I have on the metrics that people use to measure success, I have gone a distance on those metrics of success. I have surpassed some of my own dreams about my own life. But then in doing that, I have discovered that those things don't matter as much as what they do for you. Huh. So this. So there's two things. There's the is of things. One of my one spiritual teacher I like. There's the is of things, there's a cup, and there's the isness of things, which is what makes the cup useful to your life, what makes the cup matter, what makes the cup essential. And my journey. And for most people, they don't experience that. My journey has helped me learn the isness, the reason why the things that I have accomplished are essential and the reason why some of them are not. And I think that people learning not just the facts, but the undertone of those facts are the things that will make this conversation important.

B (4:12)

You're making me think already.

A (4:15)

That's good. Because some people might. Might have heard what I said and not got it.

B (4:19)

Yeah.

A (4:19)

So that's good. Yeah.

B (4:21)

I usually say that, you know, when people are speaking and they want people to hear what they are saying, they should give breaks in what they say. And you do that quite well that you speak and there's sometimes there are some breaks and it makes you really think about what this person has just said, you know. Now let's talk about your childhood.

A (4:41)

Okay. Okay.

B (4:42)

How was it at home growing up.

A (4:46)

In a writing my book that I. For a long time I felt guilty talking about the sadness of my childhood.

B (4:54)

Okay.

A (4:55)

Because my parents were very loving, very caring, stretched themselves, sacrificed like most African parents to. To give me a level of comfort and education. Yeah. And I faced no abuse as a child, you know, I mean, well, the Gen Z kids now say that being flogged is abuse, so. Maybe. But the effect of it was not abuse.

B (5:18)

Right.

A (5:19)

You know, the fact of it might be described as abuse today, but the effect of it was not abuse. I was not abused in any way, not emotionally, not verball. My parents never used one curse word on me, you know, not one.

B (5:30)

Is it because you didn't internalize it as well?

A (5:32)

Maybe, but I don't think so. My mother was very superstitious, so an abusive word was not going to come out of her mouth. I was also an only child, but that also the only childness was also the thing that made me very lonely as a child. So I felt very lonely. And that loneliness translated into sadness. So when you feel like you are different, you are other than, you feel like you're not like other people, then you begin to. You begin to feel less done, so to speak. So for much of my childhood, there was a lot of sadness. There was a lot of loneliness. It wasn't objective, you know, it wasn't as if my life was bad, and that's why I was sad. It was that I felt like I should have younger brothers. I felt I should be part of younger brothers, elder sisters, whatever it is. I felt I should be part of a big family. And the fact that I was so different from everybody else I could see in the compound where I lived, in school, in church, skewed my childhood, skewed it a lot. And all the time that I was a child, all I wanted to do was grow up. I didn't spend time enjoying childhood. I spent time fantasizing about adulthood and going out into the world and doing things.

B (6:42)

Why?

A (6:43)

Because that was the only way to escape. So childhood. So most people. I always joke that most people talk about their childhood. And so I want to go back to when I was a child, when it was innocent. First of all, I don't remember childhood as an innocent time. I always tell people that I think that we misremember childhood. Not that there's anything wrong with childhood, but, you know, you grew up in school, you grew up in classrooms where you were bullied. You grew up seeing children being jealous of each other, ratting out each other. You know, you grew up. So I always joke that I think most people are misrepresenting their childhood because they are tired of the challenges of adulthood.

B (7:16)

Okay?

A (7:17)

Children can be. Children can be wicked. That's not indictment. Just what it is. Children can be selfish. Children can be bullies, children. The first time somebody betrayed you, I'm sure you were a child. The first time somebody stole from you, I'm sure you were a child. So what I'm saying is that because of the loneliness of my childhood, I spent a lot of time reading so I could observe childhood fully. I wasn't fantasizing childhood. And so I felt. So because I was an only child and I didn't have control over my circumstances, I didn't have control. I couldn't make myself a brother, I couldn't make myself a sister. And I was very ambitious. I always say that. Yeah.

B (7:55)

So that's the one I'm really trying to figure out after reading all the things I've read about you, where that ambition come from. Because only childs are never usually like that.

A (8:04)

Right. That's interesting. I wouldn't know. I haven't done the numbers, but I think that it was. I wanted to gain control of my destiny. I felt powerless as a child over my circumstances. First was that whole only childness. The second was my parents are not poor, but they are not wealthy either. And I didn't like it. So I tell people that I don't have a lot of memories of my childhood because what I have are memories of trying to transcend my childhood. So you don't like the compound where you live in. So you want to have a bigger compound. And the only way you can do it is to go into the world and start working and make money. So from a child, from being a child. I wanted to do that from seven.

B (8:42)

Were you overprotected?

A (8:44)

Yes, certainly was. Certainly was.

B (8:46)

What did that do to you?

A (8:49)

I think it's also emphasized my desire to be free because it wasn't a bad childhood, it was a good childhood, but it was an protected childhood because I was the only child of my parents, only child of my mother in a. In an African society. So there was a lot right in. So my mother both over protected me, but also didn't allow me get spoiled. Yeah, yeah. So she didn't want to raise a spoiled child, obviously, because she would be judged harshly for raising a spoiled only child. So. So I think a mishmash of all of those things. What I do know, I read a lot as a child. I read a lot as a child. I read autobiographies, I read all Africa's greatest writers. So in all of these things happened. So because my mobility, my physical mobility was limited, my mind traveled far and my mind imagined what it would be like to travel, to own things, to dominate.

B (9:54)

What type of father did you have?

A (9:57)

Well, this year I began to speak a lot about my father. I didn't used to because I didn't want to pay him a disservice. But my father was largely. Was physically present but emotionally absent. Huh. Explain. I said it in an interview and I don't know if my mother would agree. You know, I don't know that my father had the emotional equipment to raise a child. And I think that there are a lot of African men who don't have the emotional equipment. They hide it. My father was wise and self. He was self controlled enough not to take it out on me. So many fathers who scream and shout and beat is because they don't have the emotional equipment to raise complex, to manage emotional complexity. So my father, what he did was he retreated into himself. So my father only visited me once when I was in boarding school. My father wasn't the kind of father that would train me, give me advice, he would provide, but that was it. He was not, he didn't. I don't think he could handle the emotional demands.

B (11:04)

Did you have relationship with him?

A (11:06)

Yes, but it wasn't a deep relationship. It was. I wasn't afraid of him. I was. No fear. He never beat me. He never raised his voice at me. So there was no fear. There was just no closeness. There was a love, but there was no closeness.

B (11:17)

So this drive came from my mother.

A (11:21)

Came from my mother.

B (11:22)

What did she do?

A (11:22)

She was a business person from young. She had, at the point, she was running a restaurant. She was importing clothes. You know, she was. My mother had like four business at the same time while she was a teacher in the civil service. So I, my, my, my. I think that just watching my. So my mother did the emotional labor of raising me and she was very entrepreneurial and very enterprising. My mother always was pushing. So I tell people that the reason why it was easy for me to. Now feminism is global conversation. Like it didn't occur. Feminism wasn't. It was a no brainer to me because I watched my mother.

B (11:58)

Right?

A (12:00)

There was no can a woman lead the home? She wasn't. She. My father was the head of the home because my mother is a born again Christian. But she was the de facto head of the home. You know, there was no debate. She was the one that would say, okay. She was the one that would discuss with my father and say, okay, it's time for us to build a house.

B (12:17)

Is that because she had more money than.

A (12:18)

No, no, she didn't. He had. But he trusted her. That's what I said. My father was emotionally secure. He didn't struggle to, to be the de facto head of the home. He didn't. He acknowledged her strength. She was the planner. She was a strategist. She was the operational guru and he just allowed her. So she's the one that built the first house. She's the one that determined what school I should go to. She's the one that said all the decisions, he outsourced them to her and trusted her completely.

B (12:47)

And in your view that marriage you saw was a good marriage?

A (12:51)

I think so. It was not a perfect marriage. He could have done better in many personal things that I don't want to go into. But there was mutual respect. They both respected each other deeply. He Loved her and she loved him. Not in the way that the west defines love in terms of romance, but in the way that we define love in Africa in terms of duty.

B (13:14)

Okay.

A (13:15)

You know, so they. They had their best interest at heart today.

B (13:19)

If you. If you were to put yourself in your father's shoes and be. And him being the little boy, what would you have done differently?

A (13:31)

If I was elite, if I was my father as a little boy.

B (13:33)

Yes. And you were the father, what would you have done differently?

A (13:39)

Oh, if my. If I was the father of my father.

B (13:41)

Yes.

A (13:43)

I would have not wanted him to be like me. So I think that when I hear the history of my dad, his father was a great man. When you get into constitutional law in Nigerian University, when I was doing constitutional law, one of the first case laws you would read was about my grandfather. And so my grandfather was a very strong and dominant man, and I think he expected my father to be the same. And so in responding to a strong man. So there's a book Chinu Achebe wrote, no Longer at Ease, and it says, fire gives birth to smoldering ashes. So that's what happened to my grandfather and my father, right? Yeah. So my grandfather, the fire burnt out and became calm. And, you know, and so if I was my. If I was my father's father, I wouldn't have put so much pressure on him to be like me. I would have allowed him to. To come into his own self on his own terms. And I think that's where the problem is.

B (14:40)

Yeah, I love it. So this spark of you going after change and wanting to be an entrepreneur, when did that start?

A (14:49)

I didn't want to be an entrepreneur. I wanted. And, you know, this is something that people can parody. I wanted to be important, but it wasn't necessarily as an entrepreneur. I wanted. I. Yes, I became. I'm an accident. I'm a reluctant entrepreneur. I became an entrepreneur because there was no other way to carry out the visions I wanted apart from entrepreneurship. But at the same time as I was becoming an entrepreneur, I was afraid of entrepreneurship because I thought, this is so risky. What if I fail? So I did it because I had to, not because I wanted to, but as a child, I had images of. I wanted to be an important voice. I wanted to do important things. I wanted to. I always. When I was younger, I used to say I wanted to be the person that if the Queen of England was visiting Nigeria and they selected 50 people, you'll be. I'll be one of them. But how exactly? I didn't I just knew.

B (15:44)

I have a strong question. Were you ever bullied when you were a child? School circumstances?

A (15:51)

Yes, I. I think so, yes. Yes, yes, yes. I didn't call it bullying then. I'm. I wouldn't call it bullying. Bullying is the closest word to describe it. Yes. I was very effeminate as a child, and there are still hints of it if anybody observes me. And so boys would always bully me for their effeminacy. And they used to call me, as a secondary, they used to call me something in Yoruba called Balogunlenyo Berrin. Balogun means the chief that is behind the women. Because all my friends were girls, I spent more time with. I felt safer with girls. So. Yeah. So in. In secondary school, I was bullied a lot.

B (16:29)

So you wanted to be important for who?

A (16:34)

To who? I don't know. I just. So there's something. There's a movie called IO lady that's a biopic of Margaret Thatcher, and something that. She's the character I said in the movie, resonates with me deeply. She's speaking to her assistant and she said, one's life must mean something. So I think as a child, I just knew that I wanted my life to mean something. Like, what was the point of existing and being alive if your life didn't mean something? I didn't yet know what the life was going to mean, but I wanted it to mean something.

B (17:06)

Do you think that put a lot of pressure?

A (17:08)

Oh, absolutely. Oh, absolutely. You know, I looked at my schedule. My schedule for next year is still busier than 80% of people in the world, but it's the lightest schedule I ever had in my life.

B (17:20)

Wow.

A (17:20)

I looked at two months and I'm like, I have nothing to do in two months. Like, I have not. I mean, I'm doing my show, but nothing. And. And my friend said, I can't believe it. That's because. Yes. I've always worked hard, always being driven. If there's an empty space, I want to fill it, you know, if there's an empty thing, I've always put pressure on myself. I'm a young child. When I was in secondary school, I was so busy in the press club, I used to write an article, three articles a day or one article. Forgetting that I was so busy that the Press Club teacher, Mr. Tete Ahmed Tete, summoned me to the principal's office to stop me from writing. Wow. Yes. Yes. That's how prolific I was.

B (18:02)

When you really think about it, is this how you want Your life to be.

A (18:06)

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Two things. One, I like being. I like being productive. I like work a lot. Yeah. So being. Yes. Being busy for the things that matter to me. Doing things that make a difference in people's lives. It's important. The other day, I was in an interview in Lagos and the lady asked me, I haven't done interviews for. So she asked me a question and I said, I am privileged. It is important to me to talk to. It's important to me to live the kind of life I live visibly in order to inspire other young people who want to live that kind of life. So for me, it's not enough to live to be in the world. If my being is not making a difference in the world, it's not enough. So the life I am living is precisely the life I want. I say people that do. I like being a celebrity because of the effect it has on people when they meet me. Somebody came back and said. Somebody said to me a few days ago that I am grateful. If not, it's useless. If not, that I have no use for it. Said, I'm grateful that you are. Two people said it in one week. I'm grateful that you are as authentic as you come across on television. And I said, that's the reason why I'm on television. So that it matters to somebody else that I live my life that way. So, yes, this, the way I'm living my life is exactly how I want to live it.

B (19:43)

Judy, at 19, you were diagnosed with high blood pressure.

A (19:46)

Yes. Yes.

B (19:48)

Did such acts not contribute to it?

A (19:51)

They did. But here's the deal. If you asked me, would I rather have gone back to 19 and not laid the foundations of my life the way I did? If I was going to live a boring life at 19 and have no high blood pressure, I live the life that I've lived and have the high blood pressure, which one would I choose? I choose the life I have now. The high blood pressure is not necessary. There are people who have lived the kind of life I've lived who don't have high blood pressure. So the high blood pressure is not a coefficient with the life.

B (20:26)

Right.

A (20:26)

But for some of us, for me, because of the way. So the difference I would have made is I would have been more at ease. So I lived the life I lived a lot of fear of failure. So that fear put a lot of emotional pressure on me. Yeah. So if I was going to go back to 19, which what I'm doing now, I would have said, don't Worry, Just do it. You don't have to be pressured while doing it.

B (20:52)

Because if you knew.

A (20:53)

Yes.

B (20:54)

That your life was still going to turn out this way, would you have worked as hard as you did?

A (20:57)

I mean, two things. I worked about 40% harder than I needed to. Yes. So. But my life wouldn't have turned out the way it has if there was no. If the seeds of the hard work were not there. I just overdid it. There's a place in the book of proverbs, do not overwork yourself for money for your sixes. So I said to myself, what I did was the work. Part of what I did was, yes, I would do that again. The overwork is the one I would not do today.

B (21:28)

I have seen you in very recent times. You look amazing, by the way.

A (21:34)

Thank you.

B (21:35)

And, you know, I have an image to show you.

A (21:38)

Okay.

B (21:38)

Because we are speaking about, you know, being able to really measure how much work you're supposed to do. And we're going to lead on to speaking a bit more about business. But I really want you to connect the dots when you talk about somebody that's working very hard because you had other comorbidities. Right. You had other things you were battling with at the time. But just have a look at this image and tell me at the time how your life was at that time.

A (22:03)

Yeah, dear Lord. Yeah. Yeah, my lord. Yeah. When I saw it and I started.

B (22:25)

Looking at recent images and videos, I'm like, yes, Now I'm creating a connection.

A (22:30)

Connection, yes.

B (22:31)

That there's been a bit of neglect.

A (22:34)

On aspects of you. Yes. When I was growing up. Yes. That's so true. I mean, it's weird when I go out of the. I don't. You know what? I'm trying to struggle. This is having such an effect on me. I'm trying to not let it have an effect on me. But here's the deal. You know, people say to me now how much younger I look than my actual. So when I was this age, people used to think I was the age I am now, at least 13 years ago, if not more than that. So I wasn't taking care of myself at all. That's the overwork I was talking about. I was just going, going, going, going. Just thinking that you have to. Okay, I see you. This. This is what you do. Right.

B (23:18)

What was the level of success you had?

A (23:41)

I was. I was on the way to where I wanted to go. Yeah. I would say that I was on the way to where I wanted to go, but I wasn't I what level of success was I? The level where I was doing much better than my peers. I was doing much better than I was doing as good. I was doing better than I was doing as good as I was afraid I wasn't going to do. So there was a fear that I wasn't going to do this good and I was doing as good and there was a fear that I had to keep going at that level, not to fall back.

B (24:30)

So at this level you still had fears with you?

A (24:33)

Oh, of course. Oh, of course. Oh, a lot of. Yeah, I can recognize this. Oh, a lot of fear.

B (24:38)

How long did you go on this path before actually deciding that I need to look at me.

A (24:52)

I went like this until I turned 30, around 30, 31. So at the age of 30, December 2014, that I wrote down in my diary that I want to begin a journey to joy. I remember. I remember that clearly. I had a very busy December 2014. I'd written my last big book with the Turning Point generation. Over that weekend. I had was in Denmark at a speaking event on a Friday. I shared the story from Denmark. I went to London for TedX Easton on Saturday. And then Monday morning I was back in Lagos from London for the Future Awards. And I was on. And then a few days after, I was completely exhausted. Emotional news. I'd been on the high, just crushed. And I said, no, I can't keep living like this. I want to be joyful. It was that year, the year before. No, it was year before that. I had gotten home and gotten home and in 2013 and cutting home, climbed upstairs to my apartment and then crashed on the floor and started crying. And my driver rushed in. I was like, what is wrong, sir? What is wrong, sir? What is wrong, sir? And I was just crying. I couldn't say anything to him. And the next day I went to see a doctor because I was physically tired. I was exhausted. I was exhausted. I went to see a doctor. I'm like, I don't know. I think I'm ill. Something is wrong. I was tired and we ran all kinds of tests. We ran all kinds of tests. And then the doctor said to me, I'm so sorry. He said, I want to run one last test. I'm like, okay, let's run. He said, but I'm so sorry. I hope it's not offended. I'm like, what the hell are you talking about? How do you offend me? He said, can we run HIV test? Because nothing else made sense to him. And I said, sure, sure, let's do it. I was. I just wanted to be healed. It wasn't hiv. Later came and said it was stress. It was stress. That was the first time I took a vacation, I think. Yeah. Either 2012 or 2013, first time I took a vacation. So that's the kind of life I was living. And so 2014, December, I'm like, I've had enough. I need to be happy or this life is not worth living. So that is when I now began, begun, because it still took a while. That's when I became conscious that this was not either not sustainable or not desirable. And it was time for me to build a different life.

B (27:26)

What is going to stop you from or help you so you don't get back on that path again?

A (27:36)

Good question. Because I've had this conversation with myself, especially this year. This year became an incredibly busy year. Two things. One, fear, the lack of fear. The more fear creeps into my life, the more I do. Look.

B (27:51)

I keep asking myself this question, okay? I have businesses. I've interviewed over 100 entrepreneurs. You have properties, you have investments, you have. Where's the fear coming from?

A (28:04)

A fear of what you see. I always tell people that people don't understand that if you're not centered. When you become a millionaire in dollars, you begin to be worried about slipping back into not being a millionaire because your identity is tied with it. You wonder why billionaires in the US Are fighting for relevance. Anybody who has achieved a goal, if you become a millionaire, you can identify with it. You can say the reason why. They like being in the billionaires club. They like being on the Forbes list. And when you become a billionaire, you begin to hustle not to fall off the Forbes list, not to become a millionaire again. And people see that. So fear has nothing to do with the level of life you are in. Fear is a state of mind that can follow you for the rest of your life. You know, fear can you become president, and you're afraid that other presidents don't respect you. You know, you become married and you're afraid that your husband is going to leave you, your wife is going to leave you. So in my book, I differentiate between the feeling of fear and the cognitive state of fear. The feeling of fear comes and goes, is normal. But some of us live in a cognitive state of fear where we are constantly afraid of losing what we have. I've shed most of it, but I can sense when it's coming back, right? Yeah. So that fear is not something that success chases away. It's an existential way of Being. And it's something that anybody at any point in their life can deal with. Why are Africa's leaders sit tight for years? It's fear. It's fear that they're no longer presidents who are there.

B (30:12)

You know, Hayford made a call to your team back in Nigeria because we needed to have a chat with you right prior to this conversation.

A (30:20)

Right.

B (30:20)

And then your PE said, oh, he can't talk for the next. I think it's one week or two. All right.

A (30:27)

I was on my retreats. Yes, he's away. I was going to mention that.

B (30:30)

Having his own time.

A (30:31)

Yes, yes, yes.

B (30:33)

And this, it just came back to me because I'm beginning to see that there's an active change.

A (30:41)

Yes. Oh, yes. The 19 year old me would not recognize me. Another 20 something year old me would not recognize me. Today. I would not recognize me.

B (30:50)

Do you feel happier?

A (30:51)

Oh, of course. Oh, by far. Oh, my goodness. And that's. You know, the Bible says, let he who thinketh his stance take. He let it fall. The reason why I do my retreats religiously is because it's also easy to. Especially in the busy year I've had, it's also easy to not pin my sense of self to the things you say to introduce me at the show. You know, the people that are screaming when I got into the airport here. It becomes easy for me to identify myself with that. And once I do that, I start building the foundation for unhappiness. Huh huh. So my retreats are constantly to disentangle myself from the external and return to base. Return to base to return to a place where I remind myself every week, I remind myself I have a weekly meditation. I remind myself to never. There's a way. I write it in my phone. Never ever. How do I write it? Never. Okay, I just changed it this week. That's why I made it a bit shorter. Resist the temptation to perform. Resist the unconscious temptation to perform. So every time I feel like I'm drifting away from myself, I'm doing the thing I'm doing because of what people are going to say, think, do like you have to return to yourself.

B (32:08)

What should people understand about success?

A (32:13)

That. And so first, let's define it. Most people, what you mean by success is, I'm sure, financial success, economic success, what you should understand that it will not make them happy. There's no debate about this. This is the one thing that all the greatest thinkers in the world have arrived at. Buddhist thinking, stoic thinking, Christian thinking, Islamic thinking, neurosciences, Sufism, you know, behavioral Psychology, Economics. There is a consensus. Economic success will not make you happy. It will do other things to make you comfortable. So you can cry in business class. You know it will make your children make you proud. Even if they don't make you happy. Success will not. It has material success has no inherent capacity to change your emotional well being sustainably. None. A car can do nothing for your happiness.

B (33:18)

What does?

A (33:19)

What does? Being at peace with yourself.

B (33:21)

How do we get at peace?

A (33:24)

That's a good question. Two things. One, self acceptance. An utter acceptance of self as you are with your flaws and all. A complete, at least a contentment is the art of being at peace with never ever getting what you want. Love it.

B (33:43)

This is the time I should actually close. This is solid, Sabine.

A (33:49)

Compared complete. That's. Whoever you are now, you completely accept yourself and your situation. Doesn't mean you will not change it. But you accept yourself as you are.

B (33:59)

Why is it so hard to do?

A (34:02)

That's a good question. For two reasons. One, we have something called as. We have a negativity bias as human beings. And that comes from our hunter gatherer. To survive as a species, we had to be careful for snakes and lions. And it is in the jungles where we grew up. And so that has been encoded in our brain, you know, and even if you don't believe in that, then this is encoded in the sciences. But even just behavior, you know, just looking at human experience, where we come from culturally, most of us come from societies where the origins of our societies, where there was constant danger, we had to survive, we had to battle wild animals. And so we have. So naturally to survive economically, to survive materially, it has come at the cost of peace. So if you, if you live in a village, if you look at most of our films and most of our books, there was always a resistance. Once a stranger is coming in. Yeah, but that's the cost. So it's self protection at the cost of ease. Yeah, yeah. At the cost of peace. So to survive, to be powerful, we've often had to sacrifice peace. And we've learned that as a tradition so that even when it's no longer necessary, we think that that is the default way to live. We believe that chaos and drama, you know, and fighting and going on the offense, we believe that that's the way we. That's the way we achieve what we need to achieve. And that's where we protect what we have. We learn it all the time. We learn it everywhere. We learn it everywhere. And so, and so that's how we grow Up. We don't know. We don't know any better. It's our original sin. We don't know any better. And so to the. The role models for peace now society and the minority, right? The role model. I said to people, I say in Africa, if you're looking at countries to learn from, most Africans will be learning from Nigeria and Rwanda, South Africa and Kenya. Meanwhile, when it comes to the happiness indexes, should be learning from Botswana and Namibia and Benin Republic, you know, the small, quiet countries that are at peace with themselves with small airports that work efficiently.

B (36:10)

So in effect, we are not aiming to be happy, we are aiming to be richer.

A (36:14)

That's what we're aiming for. We are optimized. And then the deception, if you were at. If we knew the truth, it would be better. But the deceptions that we have been told or we have observed that when you now become richer, you become happier. So we've been told that the order is get rich, then get happy. Unless you get rich, you cannot get happy. Meanwhile, the truth is that you can be happy now, even on your way to getting rich.

B (36:37)

So I made a post on X.

A (36:39)

Right. It's interesting.

B (36:40)

You spoke about this about two weeks ago. Will money make you happy?

A (36:45)

Yeah.

B (36:45)

And then the comments, of course, of course. Obviously the people that are commenting are different type of people.

A (36:51)

Yes.

B (36:52)

There's nobody in there that said it wouldn't.

A (36:54)

Yes, of course. Everybody, of course.

B (36:56)

Damn sure.

A (36:56)

Yeah. Even now as I'm talking, people in the comment section will be like, oh, please, because he has made money.

B (37:01)

Somebody even said, well, give me the money.

A (37:03)

Yes, yes, yes, yes. I always say when I speak at events, I say, I pray for all of you, that you have all the money you want in the world, that you have a private jet, have an island, that you fly, business class, that you have a house abroad. All of those things. I pray for you that you get it fast, that you will find out that it will not make you happy.

B (37:28)

Now, it is not possible for you to, you know, sit and have a conversation with me without us talking about business. So we are gonna get there.

A (37:36)

Let's do it.

B (37:36)

But before we do, are you aware that you can go on your phone and go on Spotify or Apple and search Connected Minds podcast. And very simply, you can listen to this podcast while you're jogging, while you're driving to work, wherever you are, comfort of your home, you can listen to this podcast. So please do, because we also want to be number one in 2026 and a happy New Year to you all. Right. I've had a business partner for more than 13 years. You started your company, Red Media.

A (38:12)

Yeah.

B (38:12)

What an amazing man. How did you guys work it out together, partnership wise?

A (38:18)

Well, the first things that we got lucky. That's the first thing. This is. This is. This is not. We got lucky because now when I look back, the things that have made our partnership strong, I didn't know that those were the things that were going to make our partnership strong. It's now later that I now have. I'm like, oh, those are. I've read more books and I've seen more of the research. I'm like, oh, oh. Well, we were lucky that we. We intuitively understood those values. So I don't know if, you know, the business theorist Jim Collins wrote good to great, and he says, all of us in life have luck. Most of us don't have return on luck. So we got a very high return on luck. So meeting Dybola was just luck. We were sitting down at an event, we started talking. We knew that we had the same vision. What we didn't know was that we're lucky to have two things. One, to have different personality types. So I was the volatile one, he was the calm one, but not the kind of calm that is subsumed. It's a kind of calm that withstands. So, you know, the people that are confident when you come, they can contain it without shrinking. And so we're very lucky. That's what I mean by luck, because it could have been another person who would be insecure when they take that, and it will make them less. And so we're very lucky. We're very lucky that we also had a deep respect for each other. Deep respect. So I had so true double. I learned, you know, before I met Dybola, the people I respected were people who were whose. Whose approach to life was intellect first. And Dibola's approach to life is gravitas first. So if Gobela enters this room, you don't need to know who he is. You will just know that somebody is in the room. And people think it's because. Because now he's worked with presidents across the globe and speaks everywhere. I said, this is how Debala was when he was 15. When he stepped into a room, you knew that somebody had come in.

B (40:03)

There's an aura.

A (40:04)

There's an aura. And so before that, I used to disrespect that. I used to think that people like that were fake, you know, but because he was my friend and I knew that he was not fake. I now learned to respect it as a talent. You respect presence, same way you respect somebody who can sing, you know, and so. And so the mutual respect for each other was not the foundation of our business partnership. Yeah.

B (40:31)

So I'm picking this from you to actually be able to get into business partnerships that work. Respect is number one.

A (40:39)

Oh, yes. You have to respect the person deeply. Not. And I call it ontological respect. You don't just respect what the person achieves. You have to respect the person for who they are before they've achieved anything. As I remember, because I was the CEO of the company, and I remember when one of our. We were three at the beginning, and then we became two very quickly. And I remember Dibola, when the other person left, that person was. I always thought. I always thought Dibola was going to be the better. Was going to be the better salesperson because he had presence. So that person left. I told, you're the one that's going to do it. And he said, so you can kill me with pressure like you almost killed the other person? And I say, you don't know yourself. You don't know yourself. I said, you are the. You are the best person to do this. It wasn't. It wasn't a. It wasn't a debate in my mind. I saw him clearly remember we're working with a president, and they hadn't paid us balance. It was a lot of money. And so I told him, I just go. Just take a flight and go to that country. It's an African country. Just go. Just go and stay with the president the same room. You'll get the money out. And they were like, no. They said. I said, but. I just said, but you don't accept who. I will approve the claims. Just go. He came out with 50 more than they were owing us. Wow. So that's. That's a life skill, you know, That's a life skill. And so I say it's a deep respect. So this is before this result. I had seen that there's something the bola has that I don't have, and that's as important as what I have.

B (41:59)

Oh, this is so good. So do you also recognize what your business partner is good at that you are not?

A (42:05)

Oh, of course, of course, of course, of course. That's why. Of course, of course. Without a doubt, I've been very good at that. I think I learned that from my father. Once my business partner is good at something, once my staff is good at something, once anybody is good at something, I'm like, please collect. That's one less thing for me to worry about.

B (42:20)

I learned that from how to win friends and influence people. Right. So now we are doing some business with this doctor in the uk and then Eddie will call me and he will say that, Derek, I've done everything. It's left with one thing. I say, what the intuitive analysis you have. So get on the phone, call and speak to him, and if you feel it, let's do it.

A (42:38)

Yes, yes, yes.

B (42:39)

And these are the things. It works.

A (42:41)

Fantastic.

B (42:42)

And I know that Eddie will make sure compliance is taken care of and the business continuity is. But me, if you put me there, I can't do it.

A (42:49)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's powerful. Anybody who can recognize that, my number one, I call him my father. Warren Buffett says that your number one job is to know your circle of competence and to stay in it and deepen yourself in it. So it's a foolish person that has a desire to be everything. So foolish, it's so unnecessary.

B (43:09)

But when did you realize this?

A (43:11)

From very young. Debola taught me that. Debola taught me that. Yes, because again, you are sitting down in front of a person and you're seeing the person work magic. So at the time, I've read all the books I'd read, but all the books I'd read didn't make a difference in the room if what was required was a person who knew how to open the door. As I'd walk, I'd watch, I'd watched. I'd watch people like I was watching a magician. I'd watch him. I'd be fascinated because all my life I'd grown up thinking intellect, you know, intellect, mind, logic first. And people tell me, no, sometimes emotions, it's emotions.

B (44:09)

So what is the aspect of us, especially as Africans, that makes it so hard for us to get into partnerships?

A (44:19)

Poverty. I think. I think it's poverty. I think that poverty is a powerful reality distortion machine. Hi. Poverty distorts itself. I was with the guy who remind me of in Kenya. How can I forget his name? Big number one guy, podcaster.

B (44:43)

Okay.

A (44:44)

And I was saying to him, I said, he was asking me, that was two Africans. We have a crab mentality. I said, but if you're a crab, you have to have a crab mentality. You know, if people are right, if people think poverty has bent people into a crab shape, they believe that they have to behave like crap. So it's poverty. Poverty has become a self reinforcing loop where when I watch my partnership with this is our 20th year of partnership. Watch my partnership with Dibola. People will come to me with all kinds of things. They will sell kinds of things to me, say, oh, he said this in an event. They would think about girls they bought lie like stalking, you know, because. Or they would come to me and say, why is he so prominent? And you are back end and you are the CEO. And I wonder, do you think we didn't discuss this before we left? You know, so. So the fear is the fear. When I left the business in 2017, I just opt and left as CEO. 2016, people said, no, he will take over the business. And I'm like, is the fear. Is the fear that. And I'm like, is it fear that once he takes over, then I'm. I don't. It's the fear that once he has more, I have less rather than giving him more enables both of us to have more. You know, it's a. It's a valid fear. People have been stolen from, you know, because people think that the only way to move on in life is to steal from somebody else. So all these things, poverty has made us as Africans, have a sense of. Many of us as Africans, not all have a sense of scarcity. And that's what we learn it culturally. We learn it from our bosses, we learn from our parents, we learn it from our. From books, from movies. You're watching a Nollywood movie or a golly movie, the person you leave, you travel, you come back, they've taken over your business. As a child, you learn that growing up, you learn scarcity culturally. Do you understand? Yes. So that's what happens. That's what has made us afraid of partnership.

B (46:36)

Never thought about it the way we have seen it all the time.

A (46:40)

Yes. We see it in movies, in books, see it on television. We see it with our uncles, our aunties, businesses. We see it. And I mean, I remember when my new CEO, I just bought a new CEO for the last company that I used to run. When I told her, okay, we're sending the token to you and the check, and she said, you won't have access to the account. I'm like, how can I be. How can you be the CEO and I'm the one with access to the account. If I didn't trust you, I see you, I shouldn't have hired you. And, and even this, I remember, I just. It was when I was talking, I remember I've not had access to any of our company accounts for the past 17 years. Wow. Because even the CEOs were the ones that had access to the account. I wasn't the one. I would approve the claims form. And then the CFO is the counterbalance for the CEO. That's proper structure. I've never known the passwords or company accounts. Why. So I've never had a family member work with me to safeguard my interests. So. But these are. But I don't, I don't begrudge those who act like that because we live in a culture that teaches us scarcity and that scarcity comes from prolonged poverty.

B (47:37)

And the best way to do this is.

A (47:39)

The best way to do is to have, you know, Mandela said something once. I'm moving in the, in the direction of my hopes or not and not my fears. So you, you have to build. So two things. First, two things. You have to build the capacity for trust. Trust in the universe, trust in yourself, trust in other people. You have to build that capacity. That's a longer story. It's a chapter that I used to explain that in my book. But secondly, you have to build structure. So I forgot to talk about that. I realized I had to talk about that. So in my mind, I'm like. Once I. So, for instance, what I described. Now, when you learn about financial systems, the person who approves the claim should not be the same person as disbursing the money. So both of them act as a check and balance on themselves. Once you've created that system, you can start hands off. It's like if I'm going on a retreat, I have extensive processes for everything in the company. So my PA knows. So if there's processes and I can go off from the business because everybody knows what to do. So once you have structure, structure takes care of half of the problems. So once you learn trust and then you use that trust to build structure, then you have to worry about nothing. It's like I said to people, I said, I have never, ever accused a person of theft in my life. Now, they might have been stealing, but it didn't reflect in the management account. It didn't, you know, it didn't. It didn't affect. When the auditors looked through the books. It didn't. You know, I've only fired somebody once in any of my companies for theft and even that. So people are telling me, this person has been stealing for a long time. And I said, if he hasn't seen them find evidence, you can't. I can't fire him based on yours. Yes, based on hearsay. So they found evidence. They thought I liked him. I said, I don't like him. It's just there has to be processes. You can't accuse a person of theft. It's such a vile thing. You have to be sure. So once they came and said, oh, they caught him stealing, I saw the proof. He confessed it was an office assistant. I said, okay, let him go. That's a. We have a policy for that. So I learned to trust people very early. I learned to trust people especially when I build processes that enable trust and I trust in the processes. Yeah. And once I've done that and, you know, I used to think that I was going to run into trouble because nobody else was. Most people are not doing it around me. But here I am 20, 20 years of business and it has worked out so far for me in that 20 years.

B (50:05)

What have you learned as your biggest lesson?

A (50:11)

As my biggest lesson?

B (50:13)

Yes.

A (50:18)

People. You know, when I was younger, I used to say most people that say people are greatest assets are lying. They are saying that because it's good on TED Talks. You know, most people say that don't trust their staff. They don't underpay their workers. So I've spent a lot of time consulting for people to realize that most people lie about. They lie about things that make them look good. Yeah. But for those who mean it, people can be your most important asset. To take your time to find the right persons and to put a square peg in a square hole is the greatest hack in any business. You know, Jim Collins in the good to great, I think, or great by choice. I forget which of the two books said return and luck return. So everybody gets luck in business. You have to get high return on luck. And those people. The greatest return on luck you can get is the return on luck with people. If you hire the right person, it makes all the difference. Once I hire a good CEO, I was thinking about one of the companies, the only company this year I resigned from all the boards I was on, all the external boards I was on, I stayed in one and I hired that CEO. I found him and before him there was a lot of. There was a lot of attrition in the organization, a lot of fights, a lot of battles. People were writing anonymous letters to board members. It was chaotic. And I hired him. And for the three years that he has been CEO of that organization. Calm. I see calm, like calm. Just calm. Growth, stability, 95% retention rates. Everybody that's around him has nothing bad to say about him. While he's still enforcing discipline and principles and still achieving his financial goals and surpassing them. I got Lucky. And because of him, I don't have to worry about that organization at all. In fact, sometimes I worried I was going to go to an event because other board members said, oh, you are letting him just. And I said, because he's doing the reason why he's doing the work, so I don't need to be looking at it. I was going to go to an event. I told you. Well, I'm just going to events because they say I should come. But I trust you. So being lucky people, luck, you know, I said, one of the foundation of many of my business, my financial thinking came from a CFO ifoma that I had many years ago at Red. She's not the cfo. I think for Maven many years ago, if I just had. She had principles about business, about finances that I didn't know. But just listening to her, I'm like, oh, my God, I'll tell her. That thing you told me, I'm still using it now. Sometimes I want to pay for that. I say, sir, better thing that they finish for market.

B (53:01)

Wow.

A (53:02)

You know, and it sounds. But she's saying that, sir, we don't have to buy that thing now. Whenever we have the risk. Let us focus. She was the one that told me then. I used to do a lot of external investment. I said, the biggest investment is in the business that's already succeeding. Yep, this sounds basic.

B (53:16)

What you know, what how to do best, keep maximizing.

A (53:19)

And from that I began to. Because of that said, in a management meeting, randomly, I began to consolidate businesses. So people, luck is the most important look you can have in life, but especially in business, you made a lot.

B (53:35)

Of money and then you really diversified nicely. What is one decision you've made about your finances that has really helped you? And I'm talking investment.

A (53:49)

Investment. I think it's what I just said. I think that investing in my core business and staying within my circle of competence has been huge for me. Huge. You know, just because of that, I realized I began to do the research. I don't ever take what people say at face value. I go and research. I began to realize that 80 or 90% of Steve Jobs value came from Apple, 89% of Bill Gates value came from this. 89% of Warren Buffett's wealth came from Berkshire Hathaway. You know, I began to. And I began to say, you know, people say spread your risk. And some of the greatest thinkers believe in putting all your eggs in one basket, or most of your eggs in one basket. But just research the basket first. Be sure, it's a strong basket. They put 80% in that one basket. And so I began to realize that most of the wisdom people talk about diversification was false if. If you want to build real compounding wealth. So I learned that. That focusing on the business that is working and growing it massively has been, for me, the most important thing that I've learned in business. At first I was. And it was fear. I thought, what if this business fails? I have to go and invest in that. Invest in this, invest in this, invest in that. Yes. But no. Every single invest. 80% of my personal financial investments are in Red and Joy Inc. My other investments that are not my cash investments. My other investments are real estate and cash investments. And the cash business are two. I believe in the American stock market. I believe in it fully. And then something else, just in case. The American just in case. But fundamentally, 80%. I learned from Dangote many years ago. He said he doesn't invest in what he doesn't understand.

B (55:45)

This is a big problem here.

A (55:47)

Yes. And so I learned that, and I believed it. And Warren Buffett said the same thing. So I believe two of them. So what I've learned is the power of compounding in what is already succeeding.

B (55:57)

You think sometimes people like to invest in speculative ideas?

A (56:00)

Yes. Yes. Yes. And I always say that if you're. If investing in speculative ideas is your one thing, that's fine. I have no problem with speculation as an investment strategy. If that is your primary investment strategy, that is, you are experts in gaming the system you are expert in all this is going up. I can do that. I have other things I'm doing. So I can't monitor currency fluctuations. I can't monitor this thing. But if that's your one thing, you become an expert in it, you understand the nuances, then great. The problem is that most of us are not that. And we are doing that at the same time. Divided attention.

B (56:36)

Today. What's the difference between success and fulfillment?

A (56:42)

I think that the Greek defined. They use a word called ataraxia. To be at atarixia, to be at complete peace with yourself is the only fulfillment there is.

B (56:53)

Okay?

A (56:53)

To be at complete peace with your atorexia is contentment. Plus I call it bellefulness.

B (56:59)

Okay?

A (57:00)

Bellefulness, you know, you've eaten and you just. That's fulfillment. Okay. When you feel a sense of fullness in your spirit and you don't have to, you don't have to. I tell people that the work I have to do to be at peace with myself is more than the Work that because of. Because I want to do work that matters. I am constantly at risk of being discontent. So I have to watch myself more closely. I envy the person who is at risk. Peace with being a teacher in Kumasi, not envying an active way, just because the work that that person has to do to stay connected with yourself is less. But some of us have the ambition that drives us to do and do and do, you know? And that person is not inferior to me. That person is just different from me. They just don't have the desire I have to build things and to create things. And because of that, the work they have to do to remain centered is less. Yes, but I have to accept the reality of who I am. I'm not that person. I'm a person that wants to go out into the world and do things. But because fulfillment, real fulfillment is important to me, I have to constantly also do the work to stay at peace with myself. That's why I go on the retreats. You know, Ere Dailo who runs one of the biggest cities. Complete happiness is to know one's true nature and align yourself with it constantly. So I know myself. I know that I would not be. I was not made to be a teacher in Kumasi while still respecting the person that was made to be a teacher in Kumasi.

B (58:35)

That is powerful because sometimes we look down on people that are not on our path.

A (58:41)

Exactly. When you go back home to the village and you feel a sense of peace from being in the village because some people didn't leave the village. If everybody was like you, you would not have a village to go back to. So that's. We all are interconnected.

B (58:56)

At a point you really come to realize that the cleaner is so important.

A (59:00)

Oh, important, so important. All of us are so important. This not even. It's not a fake. It's not a thing we say. When you really think about it, there's a two faced song. Because without you, there'll be no one to call. My baba, my doctor, you need a baba. That's why I wish. That's why I need African society to succeed. So that people can have Social Security, social health, health insurance, so they can be whatever they want to be. They don't want to be Elon Musk, they want to just be a stay at home mother. They can be that.

B (59:28)

Because the number of times I have stepped, in fact, the first time it happened, I was like, my God, I stepped out of this office and my car is clean. I didn't ask for it. And then it was the first night.

A (59:43)

Noticed because it was dirty.

B (59:45)

And I said, my goodness, thank you guys so much. And I really appreciate it.

A (59:50)

Yes. Deeply. Yes. And if you are so lucky and the person does it with joy, it's even better. Yes. Yes. I'm telling you, I pray for my driver all the time. He's been with me for almost a decade. Pray for him all the time. Because I'm just like, he does it with joy. He wants to do it, you know, And. And because I'm a structured person, so I'm not. You can't just drive me. You have to be. Your brain has to be working.

B (60:13)

Yes.

A (60:13)

So to be a driver, because other people just have drivers that just drive. He's thinking, okay, so you have to put on your. You have to. To have a driver for him to want to do it. Yes.

B (60:23)

Pure joy.

A (60:24)

It's peace. It's. I'm. I'm grateful to him. So it's not. It's not. If you understand that, you understand life. So. So I am thankful for people who, who want to be themselves fully.

B (60:35)

Yes.

A (60:36)

Because they enable me be myself fully. Yeah.

B (60:39)

You know, what's the. The dark side of this whole success? You've been there, you've seen it, you have it, you're walking in it.

A (60:51)

I think we've hinted at that the dark side of it is the cost, is the constant risk of the cost to your joy. Constant risk. Constant risk.

B (61:04)

You. You wrote a. A book which, you know, I was hoping I get a copy. How Depression Saved My Life.

A (61:13)

Yeah.

B (61:17)

The title is very interesting. Is it a metaphor or it's. Talk to me about the title first.

A (61:24)

Right. The title came to me. I speak a lot about my faith genuinely, because all the major decisions I made in my life have been based on. I heard, I felt I didn't leave Red Media as CEO because of his strategic plan. His strategy was to leave at 40. I was just walking in the morning doing my prayer work, and I heard that it's time to go. So what happened with depression was that. So I quit the job. I got depressed. So I heard that this was the title of the book. I just woke up and said, this is the book you will write. How Depression Saved My Life. Yeah. I didn't brainstorm it. I didn't do anything with it. And it's literal. It's not metaphor. I got depressed in 2017, turned my back on my career, my job, everything that I knew. Went off to America, planned to enter the academia in America, went to America in that one Year realized that no, the mission that God wanted for me was to come back to the continent and teach people how to live joyful lives. I came back and I did it. And that's what led to my show. There was no strategy. There was no. If I hadn't gotten depressed, I would have started my show. If I hadn't gotten depressed, I wouldn't have left that industry pr all of that, so literally. And now because of that, I am the happiest I've ever been in my life and the wealthiest I've ever been in my life and the most comfortable ever. So all of these things happened because I got depressed.

B (63:00)

Do you remember when you were speaking to me right now? You said that when you were a kid you felt lonely.

A (63:06)

Yeah.

B (63:07)

And you've just written a book about how at in 2017 you got depressed. Has the loneliness ever left you?

A (63:18)

It has. It has. So there's a differentiation between loneliness and aloneness.

B (63:25)

Okay.

A (63:25)

When you at peace yourself, it becomes a loneness, not loneliness. So I choose like my retreat, I choose to be alone. I choose to be by myself. And I enjoy the joy of being alone, the joy of missing out. Once I became at peace with myself, it transformed the same. That's what joy does. The same physical experience can be either sad or happy. The same experience. So for me, the same aloneness that used to make me lonely, I now look forward to it. I'm busy. I'm like, I'm looking forward to going back to Lagos to go back to my house, you know, Even though I've had fun here, I'm just like. I'm looking forward to being back at home, you know? So, yes, that's. That's why I said depression saved my life. I realized that the problem was that I was on. I was unhappy inside. It wasn't because I was alone, it wasn't because. And until I started that out, it would taint every experience that I had.

B (64:24)

That moment when you were just about to cut it, what made you not.

A (64:31)

Do to end my life?

B (64:32)

Yeah.

A (64:33)

I don't know. I don't know. There was nothing that I could hold on to. I say that it's most likely two things. It's most likely. I think it's just luck. Many of us are just many of us. And many of us call luck God. Yeah. So it could be God as well. So if you call it God, which sometimes I do, you will not be mistaken. But the physical material word for what's happened is just luck. Because. And then maybe on a lesser level, I'm an only child. I didn't want to break my mother's heart. Maybe on a lesser level, but at that moment, when I remember that moment, I just pressed the throttle and kept moving. Nothing. There was no conscious process.

B (65:20)

There wasn't.

A (65:20)

There wasn't a conscious process. There wasn't. There wasn't.

B (65:25)

Chile do you have true friends?

A (65:27)

Oh, yes. Oh, yes. I have annoying friends. I have annoying friends, but I have true friends. Oh, I know. I have true friends. I have friends that if anything happened to me, I know my mother will be fine. Also, I have friends that even if we fought tomorrow, I knew my secrets are safe.

B (65:45)

Awesome.

A (65:46)

You know? Yes. I've known that for a long time. I've been lucky when it comes to friends.

B (65:50)

You know, when you are speaking, you speak, you use this word, these two particular words.

A (65:54)

Okay.

B (65:55)

Luck.

A (65:56)

Yes. Luck.

B (65:57)

I mean, let me just even forget about it. Next. Just luck.

A (66:00)

You.

B (66:03)

You use it a lot.

A (66:04)

Yes. It's weird because this is the first interview that I'm using to law. So you've. And. But it's because I truly believe in it. But people haven't asked me questions that have led me to talk a lot about luck. In African society, we call it grace. Yeah. But we don't. Because, you know, so there's. There's been a scientific study of luck.

B (66:23)

Yeah.

A (66:24)

Jim Collins has taken a lot of top companies in The S&P 500 and defined what luck means. An event that was completely out of their control that no strategy could have made happen. Is he defined this with three criteria and define how it manifests in the life of companies. And we often. Luck doesn't mean that you didn't work hard. It means that luck means return on. Luck is how do you work hard when you get lucky? So I got lucky in driving off instead of killing myself. But that luck would have been. I wouldn't have gotten any return on luck if that experience didn't change my life, if I didn't take the learnings from that experience. So I got lucky. I acknowledged that. Now what do I do with my luck? Most of us, and I know that I won't always get lucky. The nature of life is that you will get lucky sometimes, but you can't plan based on luck. You have to be prepared for luck. So with many of us one, we don't know how to differentiate luck from the results of strategy. So we mistake. That's why many people cannot sustain their progress. They don't know this was luck. So I cannot expect it again. This wasn't luck. So I have to create strategy to maintain it, you know, So I am acutely aware of what is luck and what is outcome in my life. And once it is luck, I take advantage. I do not let luck go without a return. And it I immediately go into action.

B (67:47)

Today, regardless of how this conversation goes, you have changed this platform.

A (67:53)

Thank you. I am glad to hear that.

B (67:56)

I really appreciate you. Is there anything that we can still speak about that we haven't?

A (68:01)

I think we've covered everything. We've covered principles, and I always say that principles are more important than anecdotes.

B (68:08)

Now, I have a few other questions. Motivation or discipline in the pursuit of becoming?

A (68:13)

Or discipline. More than that.

B (68:16)

Without a doubt, my next one is the best advice you have ever received. Give it to us too.

A (68:24)

Today is not tomorrow.

B (68:26)

Now you're gonna have to explain this.

A (68:27)

It was given by Obiagelia, former World Bank Vice President and former Minister of education. In 2016, when myself and Adebola were going through a financial crisis. She sent us an email. I still have it said Adebola today. Today is not tomorrow. It looks dark today. All the actions you take today can change the outcome for tomorrow.

B (68:48)

I want to throw this one in there. You know, what have you learned that you think just one sentence that young people can use to change their lives too?

A (68:59)

Ah, there's so much. But I'm trying to look for one. This is my favorite one, but I'm trying to see whether it will land. There is no one way to be a human being. Especially in Africa, we index hard on conformity. This is the way you must do it. You must. There's no time. You must have children at this age. You must have a business at this age. You must do this, you must do that. That is part of the reason why our continent is the way. It is our mind numbing desire to conform. We need rebels. We need weirdos. We need people who say no. We need mad people. People who reject the norm. People who thoughtfully reject the norm. But there is no one way to be a human being. There is no one way. The fact that you saw everybody growing up in your area doing that means nothing. You know, somebody created a path. Somebody started a podcast. Somebody tinted their hair. Somebody, you know, somebody lost the election and came back and contested again after losing the human. The beauty of being a human being is our constant ability to choose the path we want to take.

B (70:12)

This is beautiful. Yeah, I was just hoping you don't say that somebody came back to contest.

A (70:18)

For elections at 87 but somebody also did that. I'm telling you, I learned a lot from Donald Trump. I don't have to agree with his politics. If you look at Donald Trump, shun of the politics. You learn about a person who has realized himself, who is so mad that they dance only to their own beats to the beat in their head. Yes, yes, yes. Donald Trump came back to the presidency despite the fact that his wife and his daughter don't want this. So they've not followed him back into the White House. Donald Trump, nobody has ever done what he has done. The first criminally convicted president. That's the point at which the shame becomes so much that you slink away and hide.

B (71:00)

Yeah.

A (71:01)

But he chooses not to. And it's not just him. It's Barack Obama being first term senator and saying I can run for president. The audacity of it. So the only. Just on a personal level, the auntie in your family that left an abusive marriage even when everybody was telling her to stay. So that's what it means to be a human being is to choose how you will exist in this world. And there is a joy that comes from saying yes to your own choice. Not what you think you should do for every other person. You know, to affirm your own spirit.

B (71:40)

If that's what really. Not if I know that's what really makes people become.

A (71:45)

Yes.

B (71:46)

Simply by choosing their path. Damn what everybody would say.

A (71:49)

Damn what everybody would say.

B (71:51)

But it's a big problem in Africa. Huge.

A (71:53)

Huge. Because of fear. It's because of poverty. Has led to fear. So fear was. I mean, abundance enables people take more risks.

B (72:03)

Yep.

A (72:04)

So if you know that you are. If you know that you can declare bankruptcy and then you can still get, you know, whatever it is, you are allowed to take more risk. We don't have that materially. So it affects our psyche. So it takes more effort to take risks in these spaces. Because if you fall down, you may never get up.

B (72:21)

That's true.

A (72:22)

Yes. So I empathize with people like that, with people who have to do that. But they're missing out on a level of joy that you can only experience when you affirm your own spirit. They're missing out on this.

B (72:35)

I mean, look, while you were speaking, I was just thinking, can you imagine a life where you can't do what you want to do? Exactly. It's since you were a child, you went to school, you got a job, you can't do what you want to do.

A (72:50)

Yes.

B (72:50)

And you are just living other people's lives.

A (72:52)

Lives. There's no joy there, actually.

B (72:56)

Thank you so much.

A (72:57)

Thank you for having me.

B (72:58)

I was gonna ask you to recommend the book, but I want you said so many books.

A (73:01)

Yes.

B (73:01)

So you guys can go get it. I hope you have an amazing time.

A (73:06)

Thank you.

B (73:07)

Yeah. And, you know, I wish you all the best. Thank you for everything that you do.

A (73:11)

Thank you.

B (73:11)

And hopefully we'll get to connect again.

A (73:13)

Yes, I think we will. Yes, I think we will. Our conversation before the interview, I wish people had a stick pick into it. It was powerful. And I'm excited about the things that you're applying to do do next year because it unlocks a different level of significance when you do. Thank you for having me.

B (73:28)

Thank you. So to my viewers and to my listeners, thank you so much for staying all the way to the end. I'm sure you can see today I'm wearing a shirt. So this is 2026. The brand has changed. It's no longer a T shirt. It's because we are elevating. So I want you to elevate with me. If you made it to the end, leave a comment below and let me understand. And if you have not subscribed, please don't. Thank you so much.

A (73:52)

Take care. I'm out.