← Kwik Brain with Jim Kwik
Kwik Brain with Jim Kwik
How to Handle Conflict, Communicate Clearly, and Stay Confident Under Pressure
00:45:37
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- [00:00]
Jim Kwik
Welcome to Kwik Brain Bite Sized brain Hacks for busy people who want to learn faster and achieve more. I'm your coach, Jim Kwik.
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Kwame Christian
Free your mind.
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Jim Kwik
Let's imagine if we could access 100% of our brain's capacity.
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Kwame Christian
I wasn't high, wasn't wired, just clear. I knew what I needed to do and how to do it.
- [00:21]
Jim Kwik
I know kung fu. Show me. So most people think that confidence means speaking louder, right? But what if true confidence is the ability to stay calm when the conversation gets uncomfortable. Because the conversations that we avoid often become the problems that we can't often escape very easily. Whether it's asking for a raise, setting boundaries, handling criticism, addressing tension, or with a partner negotiating, maybe a business deal, our lives are shaped by the conversations we're willing to have. And I think a lot of the treasure we seek is found in the conversations that we're avoiding. So welcome back to the Kwik Brain Podcast. I am your brain coach and your host, Jim Kwik. Today's guest, has dedicated his career to helping people navigate those moments. Kwame Christian is one of the world's leading experts on negotiation and conflict resolution. He's the founder of the American Negotiation Institute, host of the top ranked Negotiate Anything podcast, and author of Finding Confidence in Conflict. I highly recommend this book, how to negotiate anything and live your best life. What I what I love about Kwame's work is that he doesn't just teach people, he doesn't teach people how to win arguments as much as how to build a true understanding, how to influence with integrity, how to trust, and how to create better outcomes. So talking about conversations. In this conversation we're going to explore why conflict feels uncomfortable, how to develop confidence before difficult conversations. I want to touch on the psychology of negotiation because this is a hot topic for a lot of people in this community and also the biggest mistakes that people make and practical tools that you can use immediately, whether it's in your work, your business, your relationships, in your everyday life. So if there's a conversation that you've been avoiding, this episode is exactly what you need. Kwame. Welcome to Quick Brain, Jim.
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Kwame Christian
Thanks for having me, dude.
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Jim Kwik
This was a lot of serendipity in this moment. I've been looking forward to this conversation. You know, you and I are connected. So random, like in a WhatsApp thread. You know of other authors also as well. And it made me smile when your name came up today because I'm not really active in that thread. But it was very thoughtful anyway, that conversation.
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Kwame Christian
Thank you.
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And the Timing is fantastic too, because we interacted in the, in the group. And then also earlier this week, my mom wanted me to read a book and help her to write a testimonial for it. And I was able to flip through it really quickly. And she said, how are you able to read like that? I said, well, you know, back in
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college, I took a great speed reading course. And, Jim, it is still serving me to this day, so thank you for that, too.
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Jim Kwik
Oh, my goodness, I love that. I just got goosebumps. I mentioned to you I call them truth bumps. So I don't, I don't, I don't preset, you know, questions. I like them when they're natural and they're organic. But you were, you and I were talking about, about intelligent people, right? Like your book is called, like, Finding Confidence in Conflict. Um, I just want to get your opinion on this. You know, if we, as we leap into it right now, like, well, why, why do, why do you think so many intelligent people, you know, very capable people, they still struggle with conflict, you know, when conflict shows up?
- [04:03]
Kwame Christian
Yes, I think it's a couple of things, because once you get to a certain point, that intelligence that you work so hard to cultivate over the years can actually become detrimental when it comes to your ability to communicate for a number of reasons. So first, we have the curse of knowledge. Once you acquire knowledge, it becomes very difficult to empathize with those who don't have that same degree of depth of knowledge. So you believe that you're starting off the conversation talking about step one, but for them, it's. It's step 100.
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So what is simple for you is
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very complex for them. And often if you haven't created that psychological safety in that relationship, then the person you're talking to doesn't feel comfortable being vulnerable. So you can describe something in a way that, that you find to be simple. They find it just unattainably complex. And then they say, you know what I mean? And they look at you and say, oh, yeah, for sure.
- [05:01]
And then they say no because they don't understand, because no is safer.
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I'm not going to walk into the unknown with this chaos, but I don't want them to know that I don't know. So then that leads to the disconnect. The other thing is that you are an expert at your field and at your craft. You're not an expert in communication. Those are two distinct skills. And when you think about the studies on chess masters, chess grandmasters, I'm a chess nerd. I've played, I think it's 27,000 games on Chess.com? so I love this. And so one of the things that they found interesting about the decision making process is that there are certain moves that just instinctually they know not to consider. So it's not just analyzing moves that they consider, they know what not to consider. So when you think about focus, it's not just about what you're paying attention to, it's about learning what you need to ignore. Now bring it back to the person who's very intelligent, they know a lot of things and they bring a lot of those things into the conversation and then they're considering a lot of those things. But since they're an expert in a field and not in communication particularly, they are considering things that should not be considered at this moment, which leads to higher cognitive load, which decreases performance under pressure. And so there are these things that will. This creates a bit of a cocktail of challenges for intelligence people that intelligent people that they're not aware of. And as a result, they struggle in these conversations without being able to effectively identify why.
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Jim Kwik
It's interesting. Same with somebody could be an expert in some area, you know, it could be law, you know, or it could be something creative. But does mean if they start their business, they're an expert at being an entrepreneur, you know, just like that they weren't taught how to have quality conversations. And also as well, I, I have to ask. And we get to work with a lot of chess players and it's interesting that cognitive load, because these chess masters are sitting there, that they could be burning upwards of 6,000, 7,000, 8,000 calories, which is absolutely insane because of your brain uses. It's like, it's an energy hog. Which is interesting, but the patterns, I like what you said about it's not just the focusing on the signal, but also ignoring the noise that's around you. I have to ask the obvious question. When a lot of people see me on stage and I'll do these demonstrations where they'll challenge me to remember numbers or words or all their names or whatever, I don't do it to impress them. I just express to them what's possible. But it wasn't until halfway through my career, maybe 15 years into it, that I started telling them, oh, wait a second, because I had a blind spot, I'm like, okay, people think I was just born with disability. Let me tell them how much I actually struggled with my brain injury and my learning challenges and how my mother became a special education Teacher to help me with my difficulties because it became relatable. I have to ask you about your origin story. Were you always this charismatic, this confident, you know, a great negotiator, Talking about the expert. There's knowledge curse with, you know, but also there's an expertise curse where you. Is this born or is this built?
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Kwame Christian
It is 100% built.
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Jim Kwik
And I'm glad you said that because otherwise this, because, because I want people to realize that, you know, with our study of genius, which is a big part of my focus is that genius, genius is more built than it is born. Right? And you know, through, through, through training, through experience, what was like my, my inspiration was my desperation. What, what put you on this track to make this your, your focus and also your, your, your talent, your expertise.
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Kwame Christian
So my origin story is, is very different from other folks in the industry. So I'm a first generation Caribbean American. My family settled into a small town called Tiffin, Ohio. And the joke that I used to have all the time was there, me, my mom, my dad, my brother, and that was it. And so growing up, I had a Caribbean accent too. So we looked different, we sounded different. And I remember one time when it was, I was in kindergarten like 6 years old, and I went out on the playground for recess and nobody would play with me. I went to one group and I asked if I could play with them, they said no. Went to another group, asked if I could play with them, they said no. And then I was getting desperate. I tried one last group, same thing, and I was devastated. The bell rang, nobody would play with me. And I went in and I tried to keep it together. But my teacher asked what happened and I told her the story and I just burst out crying. And Jim, I remember at that moment I said to myself, I will never allow this to happen again. I'm going to have a lot of six years old. At six years old. At six years old, I said, I will never allow this to happen again. I'm going to do whatever it takes to make sure that I always have friends. And so from the out, outside looking in, it would look like a success story because I was very popular, it was a small school. So what I'm going to say will sound more impressive than it actually is. My graduating class was 55, but by the end of my time in high school, I was. When I was going through the classes, I was greeting every student, no matter whether it's a freshman, sophomore, junior, senior by name, all the way to class. But people didn't recognize the Silent compromises that I made in order to achieve that level of pop culture popularity. So inside I was a people pleaser, but from the outside, I looked very popular and confident. And I remember one day I was talking to a mentor and talking about the things that I wanted to achieve in my life and in my career. And he said, you're not going to have the success you want to have unless you're willing to have these tough conversations. There's a big difference between being liked and being respected. Those two are completely different things. So for me, I studied psychology, that was my undergrad degree, and I treated my fear of difficult conversations like a phobia. I would just, I would. It's exposure therapy. So you take these small steps in these small conversations. You start to advocate for yourself and stand up for yourself. So I started to, slowly and methodically, based on the science, based on psychology, build my confidence. And then it wasn't until law school that I found myself into, in a negotiation course where I actually was able to recognize this is a skill, not a talent. Now I can actually take it to the next level and improve tactically, strategically, and skillfully. And so that is how I got to this stage. And it's just been constant practice ever since. And the reason I started the American Negotiation Institute is because I recognize the impact it had on me. And I realized that the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations. So I want to find a way to spread this message as far and as wide as possible.
- [11:59]
Jim Kwik
Absolutely love that it's so, so aligned with, with. With our. What our audiences experience with, with our work. Is it, you know, part of, part of what I did in Limitless was to point out some of the lies that people have around learning. And I use it as an acronym. Lie, Liz. A limited idea. Entertain, Lie. Are there, is there a big lie or myth that people believe about confidence? You know, that, that you've learned over, over the years and with all the speaking and the clients and your own personal journey, Any, any, any. Any big lie, that's kind of our myth that stands out, that's holding people back or misrepresenting their relationship with their own confidence.
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Kwame Christian
When it comes to confidence, people, I think, rightly identify it as a feeling, but they. It's a feeling that is fleeting and they don't have control over. They would say, I wish I had more confidence. In the same way they would say, I hope it doesn't rain today. But when you recognize what confidence really is, it is, yes, a feeling you can feel confident, but there is a skill that you can build that can lead to that skill, that, to that feeling. Right. And that I think that's the distinction. So once you can understand that confidence is a skill that can be cultivated with intentionality, now all you need to do, you say, where am I lacking in confidence? Where is that lack of confidence coming from and what do I need to do to fill that gap? Because we have to. One of the things that we don't appreciate about confidence is that sometimes the lack of confidence is an accurate representation of the skills that you don't have. You might not have what it takes to have earned confidence because there's a definition of confidence where we can think about it in terms of self trust. So I'm confident that when I turn on your podcast, you're going to teach me something incredible. I'm confident I have trust. I trust that you're going to do that. So when I'm stepping into a conversation, I'm confident that I have the skills necessary to do what it takes. And if you don't, if you can't say that, then you need to do what it takes to build those skills, then there's the other side of confidence, which is comprised of the self limiting beliefs. Okay, what are the things that I believe that are not necessarily true? So this is the cognitive behavioral therapy type of angle where we try to identify those limiting beliefs and replace them with beliefs that are more empowering and also true. And so if you say, all right, I'm not confident in my ability to communicate, I'm not a good communicator, I'm not good at these tough conversations. Okay. And I can't get better then see that last part, that is not true. And so what we have to do is we have to build that self trust, build the skills and then incrementally take those little micro risks in low stakes scenarios to build the confidence we need so it'll show up when it
- [14:48]
Jim Kwik
actually matters because you're giving yourself that exposure also in small bite size, but you're still moving in that direction. Building, building a muscle. I like where, you know, it's not. Part of our work is taking nouns and turning them to verbs. So it's like I don't have focus. You do focus. You know, I don't have creativity. There's a process for being creative, right. I don't even have a, a memory. You know, like there's a three stage process of remembering something and I like making it a verb because it gives me my, my Agency back. Right. I don't wake up because hope's not a great strategy. And just hope I'm focused or hope I'm confident there's a. There's a process, you know, for building confidence. It's a muscle and is also something you can do. What, what, what about conflict? What, what's, what's, you know, you know, this idea where the, the problem is often not the problem. The problem is how we think about the problem.
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Kwame Christian
Yes.
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Jim Kwik
And where, where, where, if we take that out, confidence. Let's. Let's look at conflict. Because I know, you know, people are conflicted. You know, where people's expectations are, are, Are not met or they have some kind of scares, their fear of being judged or creating some kind of challenge. What is, what is our relationship with? So maybe it's not conflict that's the problem. Maybe it's how we see conflict or our relationship to conflict. Can we unpack that a little bit?
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Kwame Christian
Yeah. Essentially what happens is we conflate conflict with combat.
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Announcer
So.
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Jim Kwik
Right. It feels different.
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Kwame Christian
Yes.
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Because with combat, we say, all right, this is an altercation where the goal is to do damage. And even if you yourself don't say, my goal is to do damage or inflict damage on somebody else, you still carry the fear of that person inflicting damage on you. And so we either are too aggressive or too passive, or we recoil when we don't when we should be leaning in, which diminishes our presence and ability to connect with people. And when you think about conflict, think about, Think about a relationship that you've had for an extended period of time where you know them for years and you've spent substantial amounts of time with them, where there has been zero conflict, there's probably not many, if any. Then check that box. If, if you've had a relationship with somebody and you've never had conflict, then you don't really have a deep relationship with the person. If you spend enough time with a person, you will have conflict. So conflict is just the natural consequence of more than one human in a space for an extended amount of time. It's a completely natural thing, but we have this negative bias toward it, this negative orientation where we think of it, again as combat, where regardless, even if something good happens, and I am going to take damage in the process. So for me, I think about conflict as an opportunity. That's my mentality. Conflict is an opportunity. And so when you think about any animal entering into a situation, we're going to ask ourselves, should I approach or avoid this Situation, humans, lesser animals, everything, we're all saying the same thing. But if we focus on the risk, if we focus on the damage, the thing that scares us, then we're going to avoid it. We're either going to avoid it completely or. Or we're not going to lean in wholeheartedly into the interaction. But if we can see the positives, then we can lean in and approach it. So I always challenge people whenever they're feeling conflict avoidance. Just challenge yourself to finish the sentence. This conversation is an opportunity to what? To learn, to connect, to grow, to solve a problem, to rebuild a relationship. There's always a way to. To finish that sentence. And if you think about the worst conversation you've ever had, that was still an opportunity to practice. That's a. That's a heavy rep. It's essentially progressive overload. So my goal in every conversation, it's to focus on my primary and secondary goals. My primary goal is to navigate this conversation in a way that allows me to make the best moves that I can use, do the very, very best that I can, and then accept the consequences. I'm going to focus on the things that are within my locus of control and exclusively focus on those things. That's the primary goal. I have conversations to be better at having conversations. That's primary goal number one. And I'm in complete control of that now. My secondary goal, that's the thing that we're talking about.
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So if I'm.
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If somebody's negotiating salary, it's not about the salary. It's about your ability to become better at having a conversation. Because if you're doing the very best you can, you're putting yourself in the best position to succeed, while at the same time putting yourself in the best position to grow for the next conversation. And if we are growing in our roles as a leader in our family, leader in our community, leader in our workplace, then the conversation that we have today will probably pale in comparison to the consequence of the conversation that we have next year. So the best thing I can do right now is practice for the next conversation, which will be practice for the next one. And so that's how we can weave all of this into confidence, too.
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Jim Kwik
I love it that you're just. You're just getting reps in. And I do, you know, train martial arts. And my, My. One of my instructors has always said is stealing reps, you know, whenever you get those reps in. So, so very important. And you can challenge yourself, because that was actually one of my questions that I was thinking when you were talking before you answered it, it's like if someone's listening, you know, and they are avoiding important conversations for, you know, weeks or months, you know, what would the first mental shift that they would need to make? And that's such a, that's such a great question. Right? So do you do anything or if you're, if you're, let's say somebody's listening, they have to have conversation where they, they anticipate emotions may run high. Right. Do you, is there any part of it is, as you mentioned, with confidence? We haven't earned it. Maybe it's like you're not confident public speaking to communicate to a larger group, but maybe that, that fear is actually a signal saying we need to prepare. I mean, how would you advise somebody to prepare or how do you personally prepare for a conversation where you anticipate it's going to be pretty intense, where emotions, you know, it's not logical. Right. A lot of these conversations where emotions may run, run high.
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Kwame Christian
Yeah. The best way for us to prepare, actually, let's, let's take a step back. What we're doing here is we're performing. We are performing. Okay, so we, we develop these skills and we're performing.
- [21:33]
Announcer
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- [22:20]
Kwame Christian
So the way that you would prepare for this is the same way you would prepare, prefer prepare for any other major performance. So there's going to be some practice elements, there's going to be some, a little bit of strategic preparation. I also say emotional preparation too. So when you think about it not in terms of necessarily a purely intellectual activity, but in terms of performing the skills that you've developed over time. Now we say, okay, now I need to actually optimize my neurology to make sure that everything is moving in the right direction. I think that's an element of conversational prep that we often overlook. So a couple of things. So strategy, what is it that I'm going to say, what is it that I'm not going to say? Those are the basic types of things. What is my goal? What's my baseline batna, best alternative to a negotiated agreement? So essentially, that's a fancy way of saying plan B. So if I don't get this, what is my alternative? And the clearer you are about your alternative, the better you'll be. I think one of the challenges with negotiation is that when we think about it purely strategically, just negotiation literature in general, we focus on the batna as your. As a strategic element where. And it is, because I can say, if I'm in a negotiation and I know I have a plan B that is this good, your deal needs to be at least that good. For me to say yes, that's just logical. But for me, I think about it as a performance basis, too, because when it comes to confidence, it's not necessarily that you feel great all the time. For me, when I think about confidence going into these conversations is that no matter what happens in this interaction, I will find a way to be okay. And that's how we can tie strategy to the. The emotional prep that I was talking about. So I call this focused catastrophizing. So a lot of times, if you have a lot of anxiety, a lot of fear going into the conversation, we might carry that fear for days, weeks, or months leading up to this conversation. But what's really happening inside the mind is that we are cycling through the same remixed versions of the same fear over and over and over again. So the internal negotiation I have with myself is I say, okay, Kwame, if you want to freak out, feel free to freak out. We're going to do it in an organized fashion. Write out everything that you're afraid of, and you'll find that all of those things that you were cycling through, it's really just eight things that you've slightly
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adjusted from time to time based on
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your mood as you were fearfully thinking about this conversation. And then for each of those fears, you find a way to be okay for each one of these. And then you realize, if this goes, if this is cataclysmically bad, I will
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still find a way to be okay.
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So that gives you a higher degree of confidence going into the conversation. Now, bonus points if you can find somebody to role play with and practice with beforehand. That's one of the reasons we created a Kwame AI to help people do that, because it's hard to find people who could actually be appropriate sparring partners before the conversation. And then just like any athlete, even if you can't find that partner, just visualize it. Visualize you performing well. Visualize the worst possible thing happening and you still finding a way to be okay. And if you go through these things, your performance will increase. Preparation is the number one thing you can do to increase your performance on game day.
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Jim Kwik
I love that. Yeah. Well, while I've given maybe 2200 keynotes, I probably practice it in my mind, you know, 200,000 times. Yes. And also, what goes wrong also, so I could be prepared if something, you know, something happens. What would you said something very interesting. I just. I want to underscore it and highlight it so people could even rewind it. Are you saying that. That. That we often negotiate before we. Before we negotiate with others, we're often negotiating with ourselves also before 100%.
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Kwame Christian
And we need to. Because the thing is, if you don't, you run the risk of one of the most challenging things to happen to a person. And confusing things to happen to a person in a negotiation is where you negotiate effectively and you navigate directly to your goal. And you get that goal only to find out over the course of the next few days, weeks, months, or maybe years that it was the worst thing that could ever happen to you.
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Jim Kwik
You.
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Kwame Christian
Let's give an example. So let's say you're working in a corporate environment and your whole life through your. Your upbringing, through what you've learned, all of your studies, you say, I need to climb the corporate ladder. This is what a guy like me does. I climb the corporate ladder. Okay, so you're climbing, climbing, climbing, climbing. You have all of these passions, you have a family, but you say, nope, this is what I do. I climb. And now you negotiate an extra. An extra significant amount of money, a nice little bump, a new promotion, and now you're flying all over the world all the time to do this, not recognizing that it is at the same time degrading the family foundation that you created for yourself with such a high degree of intentionality. You got exactly what you want, and it destroyed the thing you spent so much time building. Right. And so when it comes to this, we have to have a very serious conversation with ourselves to figure out what it is that we really want on a deeper level. Because the thing is, it's. It's very difficult sometimes to understand the. The distinction between who we are, who we aspire to be, and who we were told we should be. It can be really tough to see the difference between what you want and what society has told you you should want. And so there's a reckoning that often has to happen when you have these tough conversations before the conversation with the other person actually begins. Because we can't just assume that we know what we really want. We know what we want, but do we know what we really want and why? And we have to be willing to. To actually embrace what it is that we find. One of the characteristics of great negotiators, we always talk about curiosity, but it's also the willingness to embrace surprise that applies to the conversations we're having with other people and the conversations that we're having with ourselves. And some of the best negotiators fail to have that internal negotiation. So they're negotiating effectively on the service, but steering their lives in the wrong direction.
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Jim Kwik
Oh, interesting.
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Kwame Christian
Yeah.
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Jim Kwik
When you work with clients or your training speaking, or maybe your platform, you know, Kwame AI, you must get feedback. I'm curious, you know, if I feel like genius leaves clues that there's a method behind what looks like magic. You know, when you're. When you're working with fellow attorneys or executives, sales leaders, organizations, you know, around the world, do you see, like, a through line? Like, is there something that clearly maybe separates elite communicators from just people who are just baseline average? Is there something. Oh, yes.
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Kwame Christian
Oh, yes. And so now we get to get really nerdy. I'm excited about this, because for me, with the podcast, it's been an honor, a privilege to be able to host this show for so long. We've had over 1800 episodes, and the brightest minds.
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Thank you.
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The brightest minds in negotiation and communication have come on the show. And so I wanted to treat this as a qualitative research lab. And what I found is that there are some through lines in what the great communicators do, no matter what part of the world they're in, no matter what industry or background, whether they call it sales, negotiation, conflict resolution, whatever. And so I discovered what I'm calling the secrets of the world's greatest negotiators. So it led to two discoveries and a creation. So discovery number one is that the best negotiators adapt and flow so they don't go into the conversation with a rigid script. They are willing to embrace surprise, make adjustments in order to keep the conversation moving in a productive direction. The next discovery is that you only need three core skills to be a great negotiator or communicator. Just three, and you could spend the rest of your life perfecting these three skills. You don't need another tactic, another strategy, nothing, just these three core skills. Become a better listener, become more curious and become better at managing emotions, both yours and the other side. And you notice it's, it's filtered through the prism of, of continuous improvement because you, there is no limit to how good you can get at these skills. So for every expert listener, just ask them when is the time you don't listen. Okay, let's pay attention to that pattern. A lot of the experts that I talk to are great, they might be great hostage negotiators, great business negotiators. Then I ask them about how they are at home.
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They're like, oh man, I'm terrible at home. And so there's the performance gap, right? And then when it comes to emotion
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management, we always focus on managing the other person's emotions. But the thing is that we won't be able to access our best skills under pressure. If we can't manage our own emotions, we, we go offline as well. And so that led me to create Compassionate Curiosity, which is a three step mental model that allows you to navigate any tough conversation. So step number one, we're going to assume there's an emotional element in many cases, so you acknowledge and validate the emotions to lower the emotional temperature of the room so we can have a higher level conversation. Because we know that when the limbic system, the amygdala is flaring, we are not thinking as clearly. Same with the other side. So we have to lower the emotional temperature so we can have an effective conversation. Then once cooler heads have prevailed, veiled, we go to step number two, which is getting curious with compassion, asking open ended questions with a compassionate tone to gather information, build trust, build rapport and demonstrate empathy. And then the last step is using joint problem solving where we work with you, not against you, to solve the problem. So it's not me versus you, it's you and me versus the problem solving, solving. We work together to find a solution, but then you flow through the framework. It's not a rigid 1, 2, 3. It helps you to make the right read at the right moment. And then that is the foundation for higher level strategies. But what you'll find in a lot of cases is that this is all you need to get you where you need to go.
- [32:33]
Jim Kwik
It's kind of cool that you know, it's a large part of negotiations, isn't just communication strategy, it's emotional management and regulation. When, when things, if one of our listeners is in the midst of things, you know, like in A difficult conversation. Do you have us, do you have a go to set of tools? Let's say your tools are, are questions, like maybe a couple of favorite questions. One favorite question that you could ask is kind of a go to that has a lot of leverage, meaning you could instantly improve, you know, almost any difficult conversation.
- [33:11]
Kwame Christian
Yes. So my favorite one, and this works well in transactional types of negotiations, is what flexibility do you have as a starting point? So you can, you can ask that in any transaction as the, as the starting point because it gives you so much data. So first of all, it's open ended, so it requires a narrative response. We're going to gather information with the response. It's not binary. Yes or no? Can you give me a break? No negotiation done.
- [33:38]
Right. So that's one thing.
- [33:41]
The next thing is it helps you to know what kind of game we're playing here because if the person says absolutely not, there's, we've never given any discounts in this situation. Never. It's beyond my control and my manager's gone, okay, well, okay, that's, that's important data. But if they say, well, cool, I don't even know, need to know what happens next. I know I'm in the game.
- [34:04]
I know I'm in the game. Right.
- [34:05]
So what flexibility do you have is a really great starting point because anything other than a clear no means there's some flexibility. You just need to find the parameters that allow themselves to give themselves permission to be flexible with you. The other question I'd have to shout out my friend Zoe Chance for this. She has a great book, I believe, a Yale professor, and her book is influence is your superpower. And she likes the question, what would it take? So what you do is you take the outcome, you take the end, the end state that you want to get to and you say, so Jim, out of curiosity, what would it take for you to feel comfortable doing blank? And so then what you're doing is you're recruiting the person to be on your side to figure out what it would take to persuade them. And for me, and maybe this is my lawyer showing, but we like hypothetical. Because what I've recognized is that people are more willing to play in a fantastical type of world than wrestle with reality. Because if I ask you a direct question, you feel like you're committing to the answer. So what I'll say is something like this, hey Jim, I'm going to ask you something that's a little bit out there and it's completely hypothetical and I am not holding you to anything that you're saying here. But hypothetically, if we were to find a solution to this problem and it looked like us creating a partnership together, what would that look like? And so now it's not me locking you into something, it's saying, now we're just having fun. And for me, one of the things that I carry into these conversations is a term called conversational leadership, where I'm not trying to lord myself over other people. It's not a superior position. It is just recognizing that you, if you take the time to develop the skills, most likely you have the most skills in the conversation because most people don't study communication skills. I am shocked, Jim, at how many times I'm brought into these, these meeting, these high level negotiation trainings to do the trainings. And I ask how many of you have read a negotiation book? I know literacy is a big thing for you. I mean, it's, it's a, like three people and they all read the same one book and then nothing else. And so it's a safe assumption if you take any time to develop these skills, you probably would will be the more skilled communicator. So as a conversational leader, it's your responsibility not to use that against other people in a Machiavellian, manipulative type of way, but to just be a good steward of the conversation to make sure it goes productively. So for me, I recognize that I can carry a deeper level of calmness in the conversation because I've practiced this. And so I need to give that to the other person. And so this is one of the things that can allow the person to feel safer in the interaction, being creative and letting go. Because for me, when I'm having a negotiation, it doesn't sound what, like what Hollywood would say a negotiation is. I am a lawyer, but I never argue that is ineffective. It and my negotiations sound just like the conversation that we're having. And that gives people the license to be themselves and share a lot more.
- [37:15]
Jim Kwik
Even when you asked that question, it felt safe for me to, you know, to think about answers. Right the way, the way it was phrased and framed. And I was also going to ask you, like, what book beside your own has influenced, you know, your approach to negotiation? So we'll put that one, we'll put hers in the, in the show notes as we always do. I'm curious as we wrap, because I could talk to you for hours on this subject if you were to go back 10, 15 years earlier, what have you, what's one negotiation lesson you wish you learned earlier. Is there one that stands out?
- [37:56]
Kwame Christian
That is a great
- [38:00]
Jim Kwik
question.
- [38:05]
Kwame Christian
I would say, I would say it's this. The best negotiation skill or communication skill you could have is the ability to connect with the other person. That's really it. And the way that I think about conflict resolution now is maximizing the amount of time I can just sit in the pocket of presence connecting with the other person. And as long as I can do that for long enough and ask the right questions, good things happen. And it's. It took me a long time to even feel comfortable saying that even after I recognize this because the as, as a lawyer I and I teach, I still teach at the law school. There's a, there's a certain way of negotiating when you get to the higher levels. There's a, not just a certain way of negotiating, but a certain way of teaching negotiation where it's not just about trying to make sure that your students are in a good spot. I've recognized too there's ego when it comes to teaching. There's you want to teach in a way that elevates your own status by teaching in a way of. That is aligned with other high status teachers too. And so yes, the higher level tactics and strategies, they do come in hand, they do come in handy infrequently, very infrequently for the majority of our conversations. They are completely unnecessary. And so I remember when I was practicing law, when I was mediating all of these things, I would have a. I called it my persuasive menu. I should make this up again and sell it now that I say it.
- [39:45]
But I called it my persuasive menu.
- [39:47]
It was all of the negotiation tactics and strategies named tactics and strategies like almost 100 different things. What could I use? Everything like that and going into a negotiation, it was like ordering off a menu. Use this and maybe a little bit of that and a little bit this, all that stuff. And now for me, all I do is I say I, I'll figure it out. I know I have the skills to figure it out. I did all of my research, I have an idea of what questions I'm going to ask and I am just going to sit here and connect with the person that in front of me. And for me there are two things we have to define negotiation. The way I define negotiation is anytime you're in a conversation and somebody want, want something. So we're negotiating all the time. So this is business negotiations, relationship negotiations, all of these same thing. I just want to connect with the other person. And then on the business side, my, my mentality is this negotiation isn't the art of deal making, it's the art of deal discovery. My goal is to come in, have a great conversation with Jim and see whether or not a deal exists. If there's a deal, fantastic, I'll find it. If not, I'm going to make a
- [40:52]
great relationship and that's it. I have no interest in like forcing somebody into a deal that doesn't serve them.
- [40:58]
That just bites, bites both of us later down the road. So once I started to be a little bit more relaxed and just, just appreciate the power of presence and connection as the sole tools that I need, in the majority of cases, my outcomes have become better. Everybody's enjoying it a lot more. And I realized that this, this realization, Jim, it's bad for business.
- [41:25]
It's bad for business because if all you need to do is, is that, then you don't need a full day training. But, but everybody, please still do my full day trainings where I'll teach you how to be present and connect. But yeah, I think that's, that's really
- [41:40]
the, the thing that I've noticed the most, it's just the willingness to, to lay down your arms and just connect with the person. It solves the majority of the problems.
- [41:51]
Jim Kwik
So I'm sure a lot of people having spent this time listening, and if they listen, they watch the extended version on our YouTube. So make sure people could join the 2 million subscribers we have there where we put beyond the first 20 minutes. I'm sure so many people want to go deeper with you or stay connected to you. So how can they connect with you? Where can they find more training? Your books, your podcasts, your, your AI? Where can people go to learn more about what you're doing?
- [42:23]
Kwame Christian
Yes. Well, thank you. First of all, thank you for having me on. It is an honor and a pleasure. It's been great. And check out my website, kwamechristian.com that's the best place to go. So you'll be able to learn about the trainings, the keynotes, our other trainers, and then also the AI that is equal parts very, very helpful and for me, personally threatening because we, we cloned
- [42:46]
my voice so it sounds like me.
- [42:48]
And there's sometimes when I, some folks actually have coaching with me and they also use the AI as a supplement. And so recently as I've been coaching people, they're saying kwame AI said the same thing. Did he now?
- [43:01]
Jim Kwik
Okay,
- [43:03]
Kwame Christian
so the way I Describe it.
- [43:04]
It's, it's everything that I've ever thought on negotiation, just and, and, and my voice, but with less charisma.
- [43:12]
And then of course, you can follow
- [43:15]
me on all the socials at Kwame Negotiates and then, and LinkedIn as well. But I really appreciate this, Jim. This was a, a blast for me. So thank you.
- [43:24]
Jim Kwik
Yeah, well, I encourage everybody to, to definitely follow, connect there, actually take a screenshot wherever you're consuming this and tag Kwame and myself so we get to see it. I'll repost a few and I'll actually, I bought a number of your books. I'll actually, you know, gift, gift, thank you some out to our community as a thank you for listening to this also as well. And we'll put all the links to your AI, to your training, to your books podcast in the show notes@jimquik.com notes and thanks, buddy, for being on the show. We have to do this again.
- [44:00]
Kwame Christian
Yes, 100%. Thank you so much.
- [44:03]
Jim Kwik
One of my takeaways that's something that really stood out is that that conversation, in this conversation, it's not. It's that confidence isn't the absence necessarily of discomfort, right? Confidence is the willingness to move forward despite, you know, that unease or that discomfort. You know, life is difficult for one of two reasons. Either you're leaving your comfort zone, right? A little discomfort, but, you know, or life's difficult because we stand our comfort zone, right? And not much, not much happens there. So this is true whether you're learning a new skill, changing a habit, pursuing a dream, having a difficult conversation. And the other thing I'm thinking about is that the conversations we avoid, they don't disappear, right? Sometimes they, sometimes they grow. But the conversations that you lean into more often become the doorway to better relationships, better opportunities, better self awareness, better learning, deeper understanding. And for me, I feel like that's freedom doing those difficult things. But it does some. With challenge comes change and getting those reps. I think Kwame reminded us that conflict doesn't have to be something that we fear. It's not combat. It can be a catalyst to greater levels of growth, connection, and transformation. So my challenge, because I always give people some kind of challenge, something you could do, I want you to think about. And if you're willing to do this honestly, you don't have to share it. But what's one conversation that you've been avoiding? You know, maybe like the point of this, besides all the tactics and the resources and the mental shifts, is, you know, encouraging you to have that conversation. And what's one small step that you could take to begin it? You know, maybe it's just even texting somebody, you know, if you haven't talked to them for a while and it gets awkward because you haven't talked to them, well, maybe it's just breaking the ice like that, you know, with some small, simple step because, you know, life doesn't change when you you know, when you learn something. Life changes when you use what you learn. So I want to thank Kwame for sharing your wisdom, your practical tools, really sharing your your heart with our audience and everyone listening. Remember that. You know, while I believe your mind and your brain is most, you know, advanced, powerful technology in the world, you know, so very important that we use it. Like my shirt says, so until next time, be limitless.