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LA PLATICA
“I Interviewed Cartel Leaders… Here’s What I Learned”
01:13:33
Investigative journalist Mariana van Zeller joins us to unpack the world most people never see. From interviewing cartel leaders to going undercover and getting trapped during an overseas coup, her career has taken her into some of the most dangerous environments on the planet. We talk about fear, corruption, Mexico’s current climate, the glamorization of crime, and the crimes that are happening in our own backyards. Are there truly bad people — or are we products of our environment? CHAPTERS: 00:00 – Intro 02:57 – Mariana Van Zeller is On a Different Level 05:30 – Like Trafficked, but More Detailed 07:01 – How Did You End Up Here? 09:01 – A Month After Moving to NY, 09/11 Happened 😳 11:05 – We Were the First Journalists Who Were Doing This Kind of Work 16:20 – Sometimes People Aren’t Ready for the Truth 18:38 – You’re Not Afraid to Be Aggressive 20:32 – I Go Undercover Too 23:56 – As Women We’re Often Underestimated… 25:51 – Is Your Husband Freaking Out? 27:43 – The Cartel Had...
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- [00:00]
Josh Labor
Mexican military has finally killed El Mencho.
- [00:03]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
What happens now? Like somebody, like a head honcho, like El Mencho dies?
- [00:07]
Mariana Van Zeller
Yeah, it's such a good question because a lot of people saying that actually killing the head, the head of these cartels might be. Look really good on the president. You know, both President Trump and Claudia Shinbaum right now. And I was really trying to get inside one of these fentanyl labs. And finally the cartel agreed, okay, we're going to let you inside, but there are some ground rules. And then I called my husband to tell him what the ground rules were. I told him, hey, okay, so they said yes, but they're coming in the middle of the night. I'm not sure what time. They're gonna put a blindfold on me, and then they're gonna drive me to the middle of nowhere, and I can't have my cell phone, and I have no idea when I'm gonna be coming back. He's known for that because his job is actually cutting up pieces and removing their organs for the organ trafficking market. And Sinaloa has become more violent and dangerous and chaotic than ever. And you have these two factions, Los Chapitos and Los Maitos, fighting each other and trying to gain control. And now with El Mencho killed, there was sort of a PAX agreement between one faction, Los Chapitos and El Mencho. And they're saying that with him kills, that it can now start an even bigger war between CJNG and Sinaloa.
- [01:31]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
Guys, how we doing? How we feeling?
- [01:33]
Josh Labor
Happy Monday.
- [01:33]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
You know the vibes and the vibes for today are Se.
- [01:37]
Josh Labor
Se.
- [01:38]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
Come on, baby. Number one, ready to take in the app on the app store.
- [01:42]
Josh Labor
You know why it's number one, right,
- [01:43]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
why that is, man?
- [01:44]
Josh Labor
Cuz green dot means good and red dot means not so good.
- [01:47]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
That's right, guys, with the World cup around the corner, you got to pull up to a game, man. This is a. This is a unique experience, living in North America. Catch a game. And if you're going to catch a game, hop on over on a little bit of an app called Se Geek Se.
- [02:01]
Josh Labor
You know exactly what day it's going to be. It'll tell you who's going to play who here in the United States, guys. Oh, Leo. Leo. Leol.
- [02:09]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
That's right, guys. Use the code LA PLATICA10 to save some money. That's right. 10% off your ticket of purchase all by using the code LAA10.
- [02:18]
Josh Labor
And that's it. Can I say your line? No, it's okay.
- [02:22]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
Go ahead. We'll see you guys in 12.4 seconds. I'm gonna use it.
- [02:29]
Josh Labor
Let me be honest, every guest is a privilege. Do we want to go there, get jolly?
- [02:33]
Mariana Van Zeller
Cause I'm on a podcast with Josh Labor.
- [02:35]
Josh Labor
Hell yeah, you have too.
- [02:38]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
Ladies and gentlemen, let me just tell
- [02:41]
Mariana Van Zeller
you, this is episode 236 with Mariana Van Zeller.
- [02:46]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
Wow. It's going down, baby.
- [02:48]
Josh Labor
What a blessing. Now we have an introduction for you. Obviously I'm not going to remember the whole thing, right? It's like a nice uh. So here we go. Today we're joined by an incredible journalist and storyteller. She's an award winning investigating reporter and the host of Trafficked, the groundbreaking documentary series that takes viewers inside the world's most dangerous black markets. From arms dealers and cyber criminals to drug cartels and human trafficking networks. Her work has taken her to some of the most extreme and hidden corners of the world. Earning international recognition for fearless reporting and deep human insight. She's reported for the National Geographic, pbs and I hope I got that right. And has built a reputation as one of the most courageous investigative journalists working today. Please welcome the host of Traffic, Mariana Van Zeller.
- [03:39]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
Wow.
- [03:42]
Josh Labor
You see why I couldn't memorize that.
- [03:44]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
Yeah, you could have done it though.
- [03:46]
Josh Labor
Yeah, I could have.
- [03:46]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
He could have done it.
- [03:48]
Josh Labor
Welcome to La Platica.
- [03:49]
Mariana Van Zeller
I'm so happy to be here, guys. Yeah. I have not worked for CNN though,
- [03:52]
Josh Labor
I have to say. Okay, gotcha. That was my fault.
- [03:55]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
We have. I knew I was gonna. We. So some of us and I started this podcast four years ago, right. And we've had the, the privilege of sitting down with some incredible people. But I'll be honest, and this is no shade to our guests, but like the, the accomplishments that you've done, the caliber of where you're at, the. The resume. We're so honored. This is such an.
- [04:15]
Mariana Van Zeller
I mean of course this is what you guys are for being down to
- [04:17]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
be on the Platica.
- [04:18]
Mariana Van Zeller
If this is how you guys are going to receive me, I come back every day just you guys say all this.
- [04:22]
Josh Labor
It's. It's so true, you know, and this doesn't even like talk about like our other guests. Cuz we've had amazing guests on this show. But you. There's something different about you. It's almost like when you leave today and I hope that we do a good job, I'm going to get like a gold star or a ribbon for my uniform. Does that make any sense? You know what I mean? Like you are on a different Level that it's. I'm. I'm. I'm kind of scared, if. If that makes any sense. You know what I mean? Like, I'm nervous to talk to you because you are somebody who I look up to. It's insane what you've done. It's. It's. You're so courageous. Like. Like I said. And wow. Just. Just wow. And thank you for just spending time with us.
- [05:05]
Mariana Van Zeller
Thank you, guys. You're so sweet. And here I am trying to learn from you guys because I just started a podcast.
- [05:10]
Josh Labor
Yes.
- [05:11]
Mariana Van Zeller
And you guys have a way more popular podcast than I do. So I'm, like, trying to think, okay, what are they doing here? How can I copy these gu.
- [05:18]
Josh Labor
Our goal today is obviously to introduce our audience to somebody so amazing, like yourself.
- [05:23]
Mariana Van Zeller
Thank you.
- [05:24]
Josh Labor
You know, so if you want to tell the audience, this is your camera right here. If you want to tell them. What's your podcast name? So everybody can go check it out.
- [05:31]
Mariana Van Zeller
Yeah. We started the podcast in October. It's called the Hidden Third. And it's called the Hidden Third because I think most people don't know this, but an estimated 30 to 35% of the global economy are black and gray markets.
- [05:43]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
Wow.
- [05:44]
Mariana Van Zeller
They. Everything from guns to immigration to scams. These are issues that affect every single one of us. And yet we know very little about these worlds. And so the podcast is sort of devoted to understanding these worlds. We have these incredible guests, people who have been victims or have somewhat been involved in these black markets. Former cocaine traffickers, Epstein victim, cyber hackers. I mean, all sorts of different worlds that they bring on.
- [06:11]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
You're just sitting down across from them and, like, getting all this information and insight.
- [06:15]
Mariana Van Zeller
It's a little bit, like, trafficked in a way that, you know, with traffic, the way I sort of describe each one. Traffic is my show on Nat Geo. With Trafficked, it's more sort of a map of the world in which we'd get this crazy access into the world's, you know, most dangerous, darkest corners of the world. And with the podcast, it's a little bit more like the diary where we get to actually have really raw, deep, interesting, sometimes difficult conversations with people that inhabit these worlds.
- [06:43]
Josh Labor
It's basically traffic without the cool B roll that you guys have on the show. Right.
- [06:48]
Mariana Van Zeller
But with more meaningful conversations, perhaps deeper. Yeah, deeper conversations.
- [06:53]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
How did you end up here?
- [06:54]
Josh Labor
Yes.
- [06:55]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
Like, what's the backstory? Before we get into all these questions that we have, like, how are you here?
- [07:00]
Mariana Van Zeller
Yeah. You know, it started a long time ago. So at 12 years old. I grew up in Portugal, and at 12, I decided I wanted to be a journalist. And it was very. The reason why it's kind of is because it was mandatory in my household. I wish I did it for my child right now, but I don't. But it was mandatory to watch the nightly news every night if we wanted to watch the telenovelas, the Brazilian soap operas that were huge when I was growing up. And they were really good, actually, you had to watch the nightly news show every night first. So I'd sit around as a family, watch it, and I'd see these Portuguese anchors on television just talking about the whole world, the economy and China, violence in Brazil. It was the elections in the US Whatever it was. And I thought these were geniuses. Like, how can you retain so much information? Right? I had no idea they were reading from a teleprompter and they were actually memorizing any of this stuff.
- [07:48]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
See us.
- [07:49]
Mariana Van Zeller
Yeah. But that's when I decided, okay, this is what I want to do. I want to be a journalist. But at the time, I thought I was going to be sort of more of a nightly news journalist doing nightly news reports. But then I applied to Columbia University's journalism school. I went to school in Portugal, college in Portugal. I studied international relations, but I knew I wanted to do international journalism. And Portugal is a very small country. So I applied for journalism school, Columbia University, which is the best journalism school in the world. I applied the first year, I didn't get in. I applied the second year. I got on a waitlist, but I didn't get in. The third year, I basically flew to New York and I knocked on the dean's door and I explained I won't
- [08:25]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
say no for an answer.
- [08:25]
Mariana Van Zeller
He was amazing, actually. Dean Claytel, he passed away a few years ago, but he opened the door, which for me was shocking to begin with. Who was. Take me. He took me in, he sat me down. We had a conversation for about an hour. He asked me all sorts of questions about why I wanted to be a journalist, what was. He took my goals, he took the time and. And yeah, I was very happy. Two months later or so, I got an email from Columbia saying that I got accepted. I cried, I jumped up and down. I called my parents, my dad and mom all cried. It was like a big deal because we knew it was like, could be potentially life changing. And it was sort of achieving my goals, like slowly, right? And. And then I arrived in New York and it's, you know, everything happens for a reason. There's a reason why I didn't get accepted the first three years that I actually arrived in New York. And a month into my program, 911 happens. Oh, wow.
- [09:14]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
Wow.
- [09:14]
Mariana Van Zeller
And I was the only Portuguese journalist in Manhattan at the time. And the television station that I had worked for in Portugal called me and said, hey, we don't know anyone else there. That the city is closed off. Nobody can go in or out. And so you have to go to midtown, to the rooftop of this building, and do the live report of what's happening in New York right now.
- [09:34]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
What a full circle moment.
- [09:35]
Mariana Van Zeller
It was. It was insane. I was so nervous. I was about 24 years old. I was wearing this, like, white nylon shirt that could not look worse on camera. It was like, just the worst costume decision, wardrobe decision ever. I had, like, this really blue, light blue makeup, eyeshadow that also didn't get on camera. So you had, like, all these. I go up to this rooftop, and it's basically my journalism heroes, right? All the people that I'd grown up watching on television, like, with, you know, suits and dressed appropriately, and they were older and they knew what they were doing, and I had no clue. I was shaking, was so nervous. But I did my first live report, and it went well. And then I remember walking down to the streets of Manhattan and starting to see the first signs of people looking for their loved ones. No matter how many times I talk about this, I always get emotional. But it was. It was a really impactful moment that I will never forget.
- [10:28]
Josh Labor
Wow.
- [10:29]
Mariana Van Zeller
You saw people looking for, you know, their mothers, their fathers, their kids, and not knowing if they were dead or,
- [10:34]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
you know, where they were.
- [10:35]
Mariana Van Zeller
Where they were. And. And that was the moment. And I was like, okay, this. This there is enormous. I could. There's. You know, I could talk about the when, the what, but I really want to understand the who and the why behind these events. And so a year later, a year after graduating from Columbia University, I moved to the Middle east, and I moved to Syria, and I started reporting on, trying to learn Arabic and reporting on what I soon realized was, like, the underground and the black markets around the world and sort of these things, these corners that you don't usually get to see. So my first story was about foreign fighters crossing into Iraq to fight against the Americans. And they were the first sort of journalists that were doing that.
- [11:23]
Josh Labor
And these are stories that are getting appointed to you, or you're creating this story and finding it. You're finding the story, and then you're pitching it to whoever you're giving it to. And they're okay.
- [11:33]
Mariana Van Zeller
So in that case, I was a freelance journalist, so I had no money.
- [11:36]
Josh Labor
Okay.
- [11:36]
Mariana Van Zeller
So I was living in Syria. I would buy these carpets that I would ship to my mom in boxes, Syrian carpets that are known to be very beautiful. And, and I'd buy them for like 100 bucks. And then she'd sell them. She'd have these tea parties with all her friends and sell them for like 300, 400 bucks. And she'd send me the money and. But she wasn't selling like dozens. It wasn't like a real business, you know, but it was enough for me to pay for my housing and food and my tuition at school. And with part of that money I ended up my boyfriend, who is now my husband, who had met a Colomb university, had come to visit me at the time in Syria. And I was telling him, look, there's this friend of mine who's from this little border town between Iraq and Syria and all his friends are going and fighting against the Americans. And meanwhile, you know, President Bush is saying that this is a huge success and the invasion has been a success and Iraqis are celebrating it without open arms. But that's not what I'm hearing. And in fact there's foreigners going into the country to fight against the Americans. So we should do a story about this. And he was absolutely, let's. And with that money we went and bought a little camera and, and we filmed it on spec. Nobody was interested at the time. We didn't know if there was going to be. We just went and filmed that story and we interviewed a bunch of these foreign fighters and then we came back and we started trying to sell it. And actually it was very interesting because we worked with a production company in London that I'd done an internship with before going to Syria and they said, look, this is going to be, there's going to be a bidding war for this kind of footage. Everybody's going to want to see this. And so we're going to start with CNN and ABC News and all these outlets, but I'm sure it's going to sell. And then we started getting initially really warm responses, people saying, you know, we need to see this. And then suddenly we got a bunch of answers from people like well regarded journalists telling us we've been, we've been told that America is not ready to show this the enemy at this point because it was very fresh out of 9 11, you know, and they didn't think we should be giving space airtime to platform to the enemy. So we ended. It ended up airing on Channel 4 in the UK, which is a big TV station there. And. And I remember we were paid £5,000, about $7,000, which for us was like, oh my God, this is amazing. And with that money basically funded other stories that we started developing and pitching to other people.
- [14:03]
Josh Labor
People. Wow, what an incredible.
- [14:05]
Mariana Van Zeller
This was the beginning of sort of the work in black markets.
- [14:09]
Josh Labor
And when you went into kind of escalating back when you went into journalism, is this the type of journalism you were interested in?
- [14:18]
Mariana Van Zeller
Not initially. You know, I didn't even know documentaries. I didn't watch docs in Portugal. It wasn't a big thing and know about documentaries. And it wasn't until I went to Columbia's journalism school that I started watching docs and realized that there is a thing where you can sort of really tell long form stories, contextualize them, give it more space.
- [14:37]
Josh Labor
And I love a good. I love.
- [14:40]
Mariana Van Zeller
Nowadays that's what I do. So trafficked in many ways. And the work that I've been doing for the past several years have been, you know, either long form docs or mini docs.
- [14:49]
Josh Labor
Yeah. Do you have a lot of say in the production of Traffic?
- [14:53]
Mariana Van Zeller
Oh yeah, I have a lot of full say.
- [14:55]
Josh Labor
Not full say, I'm saying like the editing wise, what to put in, maybe what to put out. Or is it just you're filming and you just get a final project so they.
- [15:05]
Mariana Van Zeller
Nat Geo has a final, final say. But we have a lot of creative freedom. Freedom. And we have an amazing team of DPs director, camera team that comes with us in the field, directors, producers. One of them is one of our eps is here with us today. We have amazing editors, so. But we are. I'm involved from the beginning of the story until the very end and seeing the last cut that goes to the network and they're watching different cuts and giving us notes and telling us what they would like it to be more like this or like that. But. But generally it's very journalistically strict. Like we have to stick with the facts. Obviously it goes through many legal rounds and standards and practices and it's.
- [15:50]
Josh Labor
Yeah, you know, some of the stories that you cover and by the way, everybody watching back at home, I'm not forgetting about you. If you've never seen Traffic, and I'm sure a lot of you have, please go watch it. I personally saw it on Hulu. Yeah. So if you have Hulu, where else can they watch it? I forgot.
- [16:05]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
Is it Disney as well? It's on Disney.
- [16:07]
Mariana Van Zeller
It's on a bunch of you. A bunch of them are out on YouTube right now.
- [16:11]
Josh Labor
It's Traffic with Mariana Van Zeller. It's insanely good. Amazing storytelling.
- [16:16]
Mariana Van Zeller
Thank you.
- [16:16]
Josh Labor
My next question was as well, you know, with covering so many of these stories, sometimes giving the truth, making, I don't know, for example, you covering some. Some truth to something might make someone else look bad. Correct. Are. Is there ever some type of. Are you ever frightened or threatened online or on social media where it's like, don't be doing this. Don't be putting this out in the world for people to see? And how do you handle that if that's true?
- [16:51]
Mariana Van Zeller
Yeah, we don't. So there's the type of journalism that we do. We don't show up in a drug den in Sinaloa with cameras. Hey, I'm here. Gotcha. I'm filming what you're doing and you don't know I'm film this. So a lot of our time is spent getting access into these worlds. And there are always ground rules.
- [17:10]
Josh Labor
Right.
- [17:11]
Mariana Van Zeller
If I'm filming a fentanylab in Sinaloa or a scam den in Africa or whatever it is, we spend months trying to gain access to those worlds. And then they tell us, okay, most of the time they don't want their faces revealed or their identities revealed. They don't want locations exposed. So we are very careful as journalists to protect our sources. Because at the end of the day, I think the type of journalism we're trying to do is where we expose the world and the fact that these markets exist and hope that through it, we're creating some sort of pressure for it to change and not actually pointing the finger at anyone individually or trying to get that one person behind bars. I'm very careful in keeping. Yeah, keeping that. But online, yes, I get hate all the time. Threats. Yeah, a lot of threats.
- [17:58]
Josh Labor
That's crazy.
- [17:59]
Mariana Van Zeller
I've had crazy shit happening. Yeah, but it's. It's not from the people that we spend time with or the criminals that don't like the way we portray them. I'm there. I always tell everybody I'm not here. I don't condone what you do. And by no means, the journalism we do is about condoning. And it is actually, I think, in my mind, more important to understand why people do what they do. So I tell people I'm here with no judgment. Again, do not condone what you do. And I'm going to ask you difficult questions. And I always do yeah, but I do think it's important to understand why people. Why do people become scammers or traffickers or smugglers? Yeah, the why is very important because it's really the only way that you understand the root cause and change it.
- [18:39]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
You have a very specific style. You're aggressive, like, and it's. It's kind of puts you on edge a bit because you're not afraid. At least you don't show it.
- [18:47]
Mariana Van Zeller
No.
- [18:47]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
And you, you're looking for the truth. You're looking for answers and you're trying to get that out of people. Like, where did you develop that style, that character, I guess, Persona or whatever it is?
- [18:57]
Mariana Van Zeller
I think it's part of being a journalist. Right. Accountability is very important. So if I'm interviewing a fentanyl chemist, I have to ask him, how does he feel? Does he. He knows that there are people that are dying because of the stuff that he's making. How does he feel about that? Does he have children? How would he feel if other people were making these products and his children, you know, were overdosing from the products that others were making? Like, these are all important questions as a journalist. And I feel that it's very much my responsibility when I'm on the ground to ask them these questions. I also spend a lot of time with the victims of these black markets. Right. With the victims of the over of the opioid crises or victims of scams. I mean, these are all. They have real world consequences and they affect, again, all of us directly or indirectly, whether we know it or not. So I do think it's my responsibility with the privilege of being able to tap into these worlds and see what it's really like on the ground. Also comes this responsibility of asking those tough questions. And I always try to push the boundary. Right. As far as I can.
- [19:55]
Josh Labor
Yeah, you do.
- [19:56]
Mariana Van Zeller
And I think. Yeah, and I think it comes. There's a journalism professor of mine once said that as journalists, you should never cross the line. There's always a line there and you should not cross it. But you have to make sure you come back with chalk on your feet.
- [20:07]
Josh Labor
Feet.
- [20:07]
Mariana Van Zeller
And I've always loved that. And I really take it to heart. And I do. I try to do that with every story that I do.
- [20:13]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
Yeah, you do an amazing job. You do an incredible job.
- [20:15]
Josh Labor
Yeah. Mind you, Mariana, not only does she, like, sit down and has permission to speak with these people, you. There's also episodes where it. I feel like sometimes it might be even more dangerous where you're actually going undercover.
- [20:33]
Mariana Van Zeller
Yeah, yeah. I've been undercover in a bunch of situations. I have to say that it's really nerve wracking for me. I don't love it because I do. I do really enjoy having conversations with people and connecting on a human level. And I think those are oftentimes very revealing as well. But there's something that hidden cameras allow you to do that.
- [20:52]
Josh Labor
Yeah. You know, it's kind of crazy because it's almost like going undercover goes hand in hand with journalism, right?
- [21:00]
Mariana Van Zeller
Yeah.
- [21:00]
Josh Labor
It almost kind of puts the capital letters on journalism. It really elevates the story.
- [21:06]
Mariana Van Zeller
It does, but there's. Yeah, it does. It just. There are certain situations that I know we'd never be able to capture without hidden cameras. So we did a story in Southeast Asia and Vietnam about these bride trafficking, which is huge. There's all these women that are trafficked and taken from their homes, kidnapped and trafficked across the border into China because there is a real. There's a lot more men in China because of the one child policy than there are women. And there's a lot of pressure on young men to get married. And there's just not enough young women out there to marry for them to get married. So they had. There's a huge business in trafficking young ladies, young women from Vietnam to China. And there was no way we could film this. We couldn't film. We couldn't go with a camera into brothels. We couldn't. We wouldn't be able to film with these traffickers. And plus, you can't openly. I mean, you can't film. There are real consequences to filming in China. So we couldn't even go into China to film any of this. So we worked with a team there that filmed undercover. And. And it was really revealing. What they were able to film was incredible. And with some of the. Some footage that has never been captured on tape before that we were able to use for footage. It is. It's from the last season.
- [22:25]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
Oh, yeah, I'm gonna check that out.
- [22:26]
Mariana Van Zeller
And then we did a story on tiger trafficking, which is very. Which is horrific as well. And again, in that case, it was me, actually. Me and my producers and camera team using secret camera in which we went to Laos and filmed as much as we could. And another producer, local producer as well. Yeah. Just the trade again, things that we knew with a regular camera. I saw you.
- [22:47]
Josh Labor
I think you were in Medi then. Yeah. And you went undercover for the shark fin that as well, transports who. You kind of uncovered that the cartel is also into the fish Market and like, because there's. There's mil. Billions of dollars into what is illegal fishing. Illegal fishing and the black market. For example, shark fin is a delicacy all over the world. Yeah, right.
- [23:11]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
Is it illegal everywhere?
- [23:12]
Josh Labor
It's super illegal here in the United States.
- [23:15]
Mariana Van Zeller
It's been illegal for a few. Just a few, the past few years. I can't remember exactly when the legislation passed, but it hasn't been for a long time. But it is now. It's illegal to sell, basically, but you can still find it in Chinese and Asian markets around the country. And we were able to film Undercover using a secret camera inside a Chinese restaurant in New York City, where we went in and they served us shark fin soup. And then I started asking questions of the person, the guy that was working there, where are the sharks from? Buy them.
- [23:46]
Josh Labor
It's almost like Mariana makes it, like, kind of like, I don't know, it's like when I was watching that part, I was like, oh, Mariana, stop asking that. Cuz you're going to get caught up. You're going to get caught up. Like, you're asking a little too much. But it's like, I don't know, there's something about Mariana. It's her presence, it's her strong attitude. She's also very pretty.
- [24:02]
Mariana Van Zeller
Oh, thank you.
- [24:03]
Josh Labor
Like, it's like, no one's going to tell her, you know, and she was just kind of like, my friend wants to open up kind of this or that, and he's interested in getting the blah, blah, blah.
- [24:13]
Mariana Van Zeller
Yeah.
- [24:13]
Josh Labor
And then the next scene is like, so we had to take a flight to Kuliakan and I'm like, what the. You know, like, damn, they got budget. I'm like, okay, cool.
- [24:21]
Mariana Van Zeller
You know, I think it's part of. A. Part of that is really the fact that I'm a woman. I think it really is my superpower. I think that as a woman. We're off. I always say that I love to use sex bias.
- [24:35]
Josh Labor
Yes, yes.
- [24:36]
Mariana Van Zeller
Gender bias to my advantage. You know, this idea that as women, we're often underestimated. Right. And I don't think people see us as threatening in the same way, but little do they know.
- [24:47]
Josh Labor
Yeah, she was just going undercover and it's just like, insane because, like, yeah, it's. It's, you know, sitting down with a mask, one of like a lieutenant of like, narcotra from Sinaloa. And I'm just like, holy fuck, man. The things that he has seen and the things that even Mariana has seen, like, this is super Intense scene. But then I'm like, she's also going undercover. What's more dangerous? You know what I mean?
- [25:11]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
Yeah, probably going undercover.
- [25:12]
Josh Labor
Right?
- [25:12]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
Because if you get caught up, it just is more at risk.
- [25:14]
Mariana Van Zeller
It depends. I've been in some really shady situations. I mean, in Sinaloa, we've been, you know, in. In places where the Marines have shown up and we'd have to hide and then, you know, the Marines, the Mexican marines are known to shoot first and then ask questions after. And it's not. You don't not want to be with the cartel on. The Mexican marines show up. And so we were there. I mean, we've been in situations where, you know, we can plan. I always say, you can plan all you want. And we spend months and months planning every trip and making sure we're minimizing all the risk. But at the end of the day, it's like Mike Tyson would tell you, plans are really nice until you get punched in the face. Right. So that happens often. Like every. Like, shit happens everywhere, no matter how much you plan. I got stuck in a military coup in Niger, which wasn't super fun, in a really remote area surrounded by some of the world's most dangerous terrorist organizations, and had to rely on my team to sort of get us out of there with an evacuation.
- [26:12]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
What's your husband doing at this situation?
- [26:14]
Mariana Van Zeller
He was active, cooking at home. He was spending sleepless nights trying to hatch up a plan to find people willing to save us, to rescue us, to get us out of here.
- [26:23]
Josh Labor
Wow.
- [26:24]
Mariana Van Zeller
My team and me. Yeah, it was crazy.
- [26:25]
Josh Labor
Shout out to your husband.
- [26:26]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
Yeah.
- [26:27]
Josh Labor
Honestly, I couldn't imagine my wife doing the things that you're doing. I would. My life has to be cut short from the stress.
- [26:35]
Mariana Van Zeller
He's also a journalist. We started in this business. Our first stories were together.
- [26:40]
Josh Labor
Yes.
- [26:41]
Mariana Van Zeller
We traveled all around the world together. Just me, him, and a little tiny camera and a computer where I'd edit all the stuff. He'd write the script. So we've. We spent six or seven years working for Fusion for. Sorry. For Current tv, which was Al Gore's television station. I worked for Fusion after that, and it was an amazing experience. And then we had a son and we decided we couldn't both travel at the same time. But he's doing. He's now directing his own docs and.
- [27:05]
Josh Labor
Wow, that's incredible.
- [27:06]
Mariana Van Zeller
Yeah. How cool. So we don't travel.
- [27:08]
Josh Labor
I would like to see his. His dogs, too. I would like to, like, not compare as and compare, but, like, it's really Cool to see, you know, different styles, two eyes. Yeah, right. That's really cool.
- [27:17]
Mariana Van Zeller
He did let me know where I
- [27:19]
Josh Labor
can see them after. Yeah, yeah. But at the end of the day, I mean, he loves you. I would be freaking, freaking out. You know what I mean?
- [27:26]
Mariana Van Zeller
It's funny. Yeah. People. One story that I often tell about the relationship we have was we did a story. We've been doing stories about the opiate epidemic together for many years. And then I had the opportunity to go down to Sinaloa, and I was really trying to get inside one of these fentanyl labs. And finally the cartel agreed, okay, we're going to let you inside, but there are some ground rules. And then I called my husband to tell him what the ground rules were. And I said, okay, Darren, my husband was in the. Was here in la and I was there with another team and I told him, hey, okay. So they said yes, but they are coming in the middle of the night. I'm not sure what time they're going to put a blindfold on me and then they're going to drive me to the middle of nowhere and I can't have my cell phone and I have no idea when I'm going to be coming back.
- [28:15]
Josh Labor
Is that okay with you?
- [28:16]
Mariana Van Zeller
What do you think?
- [28:17]
Josh Labor
What the fuck?
- [28:18]
Mariana Van Zeller
And his first ANSW is like, whoa, make sure the camera team is filming you when they're putting the blindfold. Cuz this is great television.
- [28:28]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
Such a producer. Just always on. Okay, I got to get the shot.
- [28:33]
Josh Labor
Okay, just make sure that the blindfold is black.
- [28:37]
Mariana Van Zeller
But he loves me, guys. I promise.
- [28:39]
Josh Labor
I know he does.
- [28:40]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
I believe it.
- [28:40]
Josh Labor
I believe it. Mariana, the things your eyes have seen. It blows my mind.
- [28:46]
Mariana Van Zeller
Yeah, it's funny, I sometimes forget, you know, sometimes I go back to watching some of the stories, our docs or reading some of the scripts and being, Holy shit, I forgot I even was there.
- [28:55]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
Wow.
- [28:56]
Josh Labor
I mean, yeah. How does it feel like you're a legend, you know what I mean? Like, you know, one day no one's going to be here and, you know, we're going to go somewhere else one day, but you will be remembered like that, you know, like, that's an amazing feeling.
- [29:12]
Mariana Van Zeller
Yeah. I hope that more than just this chick that went and saw this dangerous stuff, it's more what I want Traffic to be. And the work that I do and my podcast now and the journalism that I do in general is about creating connections and finding humanity in everyone. Right? So that's what I want to be remembered for. Somebody that was able to See the gray area and see goodness in everybody, even the darkest, in the darkest corners.
- [29:40]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
Do you believe that there are bad people? Like, do you believe or, like, good? Or do you think there's good in everybody and then situations make people bad?
- [29:47]
Mariana Van Zeller
I think there's good and bad in all of us. I do think that there is evil in the world. I'd be. It'd be ridiculous for me to say that that's not the case.
- [29:54]
Josh Labor
Yeah.
- [29:55]
Mariana Van Zeller
But I don't think that's the norm. And the vast majority of times, I'd say 99 of the people that I meet on the road doing these stories are people just like you and me. It is because of a lack of opportunities that they end up in a life of crime. I really believe that no one is born wanting to be a criminal.
- [30:14]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
Like, just pure evil. Yeah.
- [30:16]
Mariana Van Zeller
And it's the circumstances and the lack of opportunities and the enormous inequality that exists in the world today that leads people to these lives of crime. Nobody want.
- [30:24]
Josh Labor
You know, it's the cards that life has dealt with.
- [30:27]
Mariana Van Zeller
Yeah.
- [30:27]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
You know, and just how you respond to them.
- [30:29]
Josh Labor
Yeah.
- [30:29]
Mariana Van Zeller
Yeah, I guess. And so giving those people a platform, always asking hard questions as well, but just wanting to understand, how do you become an assassin? How do you become a smuggler? I think these are really important questions, and often they're forgotten.
- [30:43]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
I feel like there's so much psychology in this world that you're in. Obviously. Do you have. Do you pick up on certain traits with people? Like, do you feel like you become a better judgment of character if somebody's, like, lying or, I don't know, like, different motives?
- [30:58]
Mariana Van Zeller
Yeah, I think so. Yeah. And there have been stories that we've done where the interview was great, and he told us a lot of amazing things. We did a story about organ trafficking, and we were interviewing a guy called. What was his name? He had an amazing nickname. I'm looking at Jeff, who's over there. Oh, my God. It was a Spanish word.
- [31:22]
Josh Labor
Do you know what it maybe meant? This come out of their.
- [31:26]
Mariana Van Zeller
It's come. Like. I can't. Like, it's the guy that cuts off people in pieces. It comes from the. From In a garage.
- [31:36]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
Like a butcher.
- [31:37]
Mariana Van Zeller
Like, kind of like a butcher. It's kind of the idea. I cannot believe I forgot.
- [31:44]
Josh Labor
Anyway, we'll get back to that.
- [31:46]
Mariana Van Zeller
And that was. Huh. Caricero. It's kind of carnicero, but it's another one similar. But anyway, the idea was that he. He's known for that because his job is actually cutting up pieces and Removing their organs for the organ trafficking market. And while I was interviewing him, I had a really hard time believing him because it sounded so exaggerated and so just violent and evil and fabricated. At the end that we made that part of the dock, we turned to Cameron. I went, he left. And I explained what. What I felt and how I thought, maybe there is a chance that this isn't true. But it's in our pursuit of finding what this trait is about and how some people are even willing to sort of lie about it to make themselves feel bigger. But then I have these situations with. I'll never forget interviewing a guy called Jojo, a kid in South Africa who's an assassin. And Jojo's parents were killed when he was like 8 or 9 years old. And he was abandoned, left no family members. He was on the streets, fending off for himself, himself. And then eventually got into the drug trade and eventually went and realized that he was. Would be paid a lot more. Or he started being hired to become an assassin. And he said, I do not kill kids. Kids or women. I only kill bad men. And in his world, in his mind, the way he moralized it was he saw the world as black and white. Right. He saw, they're bad people. I'm doing the world a service by killing these bad people.
- [33:20]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
Yeah.
- [33:20]
Mariana Van Zeller
And then when I said, I asked him, but do you realize that even if you're not killing kids, you're doing to other children what was done to you? Right. You're killing. Your parents got killed as well. And he stopped. He said, I never thought about that. And then once the cameras were off, he came up to me and he said, look, nobody had ever sat down with me and been interested in my life. Nobody had actually asked me a question about me or why I do what I do or anything. And so this has been an enormous therapeutical session for me, and it's made me rethink.
- [33:49]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
This is an assassin, by the way, who kills people for money.
- [33:52]
Mariana Van Zeller
Yeah.
- [33:52]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
He's just having this heart to heart.
- [33:54]
Mariana Van Zeller
Yeah. It was really mind blowing. And so many of the conversations I have in the field are you go in with one idea of what you're gonna get and you come out and it's completely different. I'm still every. I'm shocked every single time and surprised every time. Yeah.
- [34:07]
Josh Labor
Wow.
- [34:08]
Mariana Van Zeller
It's pretty amazing.
- [34:11]
Josh Labor
So you're this amazing journalist who has this amazing show and you do so much in your life. Do you still have that journalism? Well, I'm. It's probably a stupid question, but it's going to come to the next question is I was going to say, do you still have this journalism drive where you need to get out and go cover a story?
- [34:28]
Mariana Van Zeller
Oh, yeah.
- [34:29]
Josh Labor
For example, the military. I don't know. I don't know the truth. Right. We, I guess nobody ever really knows the truth, but Mexican military has finally killed. What does that do for you? Does that make you want to get up and go or does that make you want to cover stories? Find out somebody like yourself, who. You're low key in it, right? Or like high key in it and you have connections. Like, do you, do you hit people up like, or do you, are you interested in, in what's going on at 100?
- [35:02]
Mariana Van Zeller
Yeah, absolutely. You know, and this is just before I came here, I was actually watching a story we did in season one about guns in which we talk about El Mencho and we interview some of El Mincho's gun suppliers, which was incredible. So the CJNG started growing, as you guys know, in the past few years, rapidly actually lived here in the United States, went back to Mexico. The cartel that existed before was called Millennial something. It was an cartel, a small, much smaller cartel that wasn't, I mean it was violent, but it wasn't to the ISIS tactics that are employed by El Mencho and the CJNG these days. And what happened was that El Mencho that got disbanded, El Mencho, they killed the head, the leader of the Millennial Cartel and El Mencho took over. And very much because of the supply of guns. American guns.
- [35:57]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
I was going to say American guns.
- [35:58]
Mariana Van Zeller
Yeah, American guns. And that's the story we did was about the trafficking of guns down south and how their responsible for violence, for the violence in Mexico. It's something like 70 something percent of guns in Mexico come from the United States. There's only one gun store in all of Mexico and it's in Mexico City. And only sort of law enforcement and military can go in and buy guns. It's not open for the wide public. You can't own a gun legally. Yeah, you can in the same way that you can here in the United States. So really they depend on that, on American weapons to be able to. And we're not talking about, you know, a small handgun, we're talking about rocket propelled grenades. We're talking about 50 cals. And so one of the interviews we did for that story was on this sort of island that we'd had to take a boat to get there. And there's this guy essentially that was telling me that they, they have, he said in one day because the war between the Sinaloa cartel and CJNG was heating up and in one day it had 200 AK47s come through his hands that were being shipped for his cartel, which he then disclosed to us was the Jalisco cartel that El Mencho was the head of. And yeah, so now I'm, I know that guy. I've spoken to some of these people and I'm trying to figure out what's going to happen next because it's really, I don't, I don't love doing the immediate reporting because I'm not going to add much to the conversation, but I'm seeing how the cards fall and trying to understand how is what reporting can I give that is actually an added sort of contextualizing all of it.
- [37:35]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
Just like on a simple level, like what happens now, like somebody like a head honcho, like El Mencho dies.
- [37:41]
Josh Labor
Yeah.
- [37:41]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
What's, what's next?
- [37:42]
Mariana Van Zeller
Such a good question because a lot of people saying that actually killing the head, the lead, the head of these cartels is, is. It's might be. Look really good on the President, on, you know, both President Trump and Claudia Shinbaum right now, but that in the long term it creates more violence because the people that rise to the top to become leaders are often the most violent people in that cartel.
- [38:06]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
And this is a truth, which is
- [38:07]
Mariana Van Zeller
why every new generation of cartels becomes more violent than that former one, which is why the new generation Jalisco cartel was considered one of the most violent because it was a new generation of cartel members. You know, really using brutal violence to, to, to become more powerful than the Sinalo cartel and some of the other cartels and using American weapons, sadly, it's
- [38:32]
Josh Labor
what they have to do.
- [38:33]
Mariana Van Zeller
Yeah.
- [38:34]
Josh Labor
You know, who's slinging, you know, the biggest around here and it's us.
- [38:38]
Mariana Van Zeller
And at the end of the day, the people that suffer are innocent civilians. You know, that's what's so sad. So there isn't a lot to be gained, but I don't know exactly what
- [38:46]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
the strategy, forgive me for this ignorance of this question, but like, where are they buying the guns? How simple is it?
- [38:51]
Mariana Van Zeller
How like, dude, so simple. Really so simple. I have filmed lots for different episodes that we've done. I've filmed lots of people selling guns to the cartel here in the United States. And it can be as easy as going and doing a straw purchase in Texas, Arizona and so many states where it's so easy to buy guns as buying it. I Filmed for that guns episode we did, we filmed with a guy just about who lives about 20 minutes from my home here in LA. He had a warehouse full of guns, Many of them he'd bought from the police, lapd, and from the military, from the. From some marines. And he was showing us this cache of weapons that he had, AR15s. He had these. I can't remember what they were called at the time. Were very popular with the cartel. He had AK47s as well, that they called Cuerno. And. And he was selling us. I remember asking him about. I think it was an AR15 that he had that said, where'd you get this from? He said, this one. I actually just got it back from this police, this cop, this dirty cop that I know that apprehended this gun and sold it back to us for a thousand bucks. Apprehended it from my guy, and we got it back for a thousand bucks.
- [40:08]
Josh Labor
It's crazy. I mean, there's. There's a world out there. We us people who, you know, we like to walk in a straight line.
- [40:15]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
Speak for yourself.
- [40:16]
Josh Labor
Hey, relax. Dangerous, man. You know, there's. There's not just guns. There's just a whole world that we just don't know about. And a lot of it is here.
- [40:26]
Mariana Van Zeller
Yeah.
- [40:27]
Josh Labor
You know, a lot of it.
- [40:28]
Mariana Van Zeller
Oh, a lot of. A lot of it is on your own backyard.
- [40:31]
Josh Labor
I know. It's very scary.
- [40:32]
Mariana Van Zeller
Yeah. And you don't even know. It's, like, right here. It's the house next door or the.
- [40:36]
Josh Labor
Yeah, yeah. Right here, right now. My. You know, so the city of Guadalajara was, you know.
- [40:42]
Mariana Van Zeller
Yeah.
- [40:42]
Josh Labor
I guess you would say under attacked. Right. And a lot of other countries, states as well. Like, I think Michoan was under attack. Like, Inaru. Jalisco is the one. The. The majority one. I have also family in smaller pueblos that are around not just the city, but they can't get. They can't leave their home. They get letters. There's no policemen. The police are actually scared. They don't even. The police out there don't even really have ammo. And they always make a joke, like, no, the police, You know, it's like. It's like a. Like a thing that they say.
- [41:19]
Mariana Van Zeller
Right.
- [41:20]
Josh Labor
And, you know, it's so sad out there right now. And I just, you know, I really want to, like, this message for people to understand that, like, there's such a different world out there that we live and we're so grateful to be here. You know what I mean? So it's like today, finally people kind of stepped out of their housing and there was lines and lines and lines in the, in the mercado, in the markets to buy food because this came out of nowhere. So they were stuck in their home with no food, no nothing because they're terrified. And the cartel leaves messages throughout the, the pueblos that say, don't come out, blah, blah, blah. And you know, there's videos circulating. You know, I don't post these videos because these are just like on my family's WhatsApp. They're, they're like 18 year old kids and little motorcycles just blowing stuff up, man. It's really scary stuff.
- [42:02]
Mariana Van Zeller
It is really scary stuff. It's, it's what I was saying. It's, it's usually, you know, innocent people that get caught in the middle of all of it. And yeah, it's, it's really awful.
- [42:12]
Josh Labor
I really wonder what's gonna happen. They're saying already that one of Elementio's stepson might go to be the leader. Because mind you, it's not like a royalty thing where sometimes like there's like an heir to the throne right now. Yeah, it's like you fight for it, like literally.
- [42:28]
Mariana Van Zeller
Yeah, I mean, it's. You know, what happened right now with the Sinaloa cartel is a great example of the rise in violence. They took out El Chapo and immediately it became more violent. And recently they took. Last summer it was El Mayo who was brought to the United States, which was the other leader of the Sinaloa cartel.
- [42:45]
Josh Labor
Right.
- [42:45]
Mariana Van Zeller
It was two factions of the Sinaloa cartel with El Chapo and El Mayo. And right now they're both here, you know, in the United States in prison. And Sinaloa has become more violent and dangerous and chaotic than ever. And you have these two factions, Los Chapitos and Los Maitos, fighting each other and trying to gain control. And now with El Mencho killed, there was sort of a PAX agreement between one faction, Los Chapitos and El Mencho. And they're saying that with him killed that it can now start an even bigger war between CJNG and Sinaloa. And yeah, again, it's like innocent people that get caught in the crossfire. It's really awful. I will never forget one of the things that we filmed, also interestingly for that guns episode that I'll never forget was we filmed with a bunch of mothers and wives and daughters of people who've gone missing. There's like tens of thousands of Mexicans that are missing. No one knows they Disappeared. No one knows if they've been killed. No one knows where they are. Very likely they were killed by the cartel or because of cartel violence. And every day these group of women go out there and they're called the Sabuesos Guerreras. And they go out there, which is the. The war, the ground. Ground greyhound warriors. And they go out there and they basically dig ditches to look for their bodies. And I remember interviewing aimlessly, they. There are areas where they are suspected to be a lot of bodies from cartel violence. And they go out there just to try and get maybe to see if. Maybe get a little piece of something that they can take back to a lab, get a DNA test and find out if they can finally get closure. And I remember being there with this incredible woman who is the leader of this group, and she goes out there every morning looking for her son, who was a police officer and left his home, said, goodbye, I love you, Mommy. Mom. And it was the last time she ever saw him. And people think he was killed by the cartel. And, yeah, every morning she goes out there to different areas and is digging and looking for her son. And I asked her, I remember thinking, how stupid. What a stupid question this was after asking her, which was, do you wish. Are you hoping you find him? And thinking, what answer do you give? Right? Because on the one hand, she's looking, yet there's some closure that comes with finding. And at the same time, it's the end. It's knowing. It's the certainty that he's dead. Right. And the grace that she had in responding and just her story and how strong she is. A lot of these. I'm always amazed by the strength of women in these. In these worlds. I spent a lot of time with men in these worlds, but it's always the women that surprise me the most, that I inspire me the most.
- [45:41]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
There's this culture and glorification around, like, these, like, cartel leaders and stuff, right? Like, it's all about, like, the money, the fast cars, all this stuff, right? But then I watch, like, videos, and they're, like, hiding, and this looks so, like, miserable.
- [45:54]
Mariana Van Zeller
Yeah.
- [45:55]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
Do they have a cool life? Like, what is the life that they really live?
- [45:59]
Mariana Van Zeller
Like, I think in Sinaloa there is. So I've spent a lot of time in Sinaloa, right. I do think that there is. There is such a level of impunity and corruption within the police and military and government in general that they are actually allowed. I know the Chapitos have very, you know, expensive cars, and they Love the very luxurious life. I remember we were never able to film it. Well, we did a story when El Chapo escaped from prison in 2015, where we actually went all the way. We took a two or three day journey in the mountains of Sinaloa to try and go to where El Chapo's mother, where El Chapo grew up, which is in Latuna, which is in the Sierra Madre mountains. And we wanted to see what the search for the most wanted man alive was like. Surprisingly, there seemed to be no search because everybody thought he was hiding there. And then we found out later that that's in fact where he was hiding. And there was no real military or police presence on our way up there. We thought we were going to be stopped and we weren't. So we went all the way down up to Latuna and we were trying to interview the mother of El Chapo. It's an amazing scene where we get there and eventually these big sort of cartel members come up to us. They're like, big, and they have all these guns. Walkie talkies, yeah. And they basically asked for money. We wanted to interview Chapo's mother. And they said that in order to interview her, they got me on the phone with a guy who spoke perfect English that we then realized was one of Chapo's sons, Ivan, possibly this is what we believe.
- [47:29]
Josh Labor
What?
- [47:30]
Mariana Van Zeller
And. And he said he was wanting money for this interview. And we said, as journalists, we don't pay for interviews. And he said, well, mija, if that's the case, you have exactly 10 minutes to leave my town or. Or I'm going to send my people after you. And so we decided to leave town. But on our way down, we stopped in a little town which I can't remember the name of. It was San Juan something or something. And it was. And it was at night. It started bomb raining, like really heavy raining and storms. So we decided we weren't stopping. And it happened to be the annual party, the festival, the Sun. You know how they have the annual patron saint parties of that night. And it was the most amazing place I've ever seen because it was all the capos of all the local, different cartels, you know, the different groups of the Sinaloa cartel were there with their bodyguards, all heavily armed, and their cowboy boots and you were there hats and all the women, all the cartel wives dressed up with like Louis Vuitton and Gucci and like fancy jewelry. And it was like muddy. And it was in the middle of the mountains in like a really rural area. They were drinking like top shelf tequila, armed to their teeth. And we were, we couldn't believe it. We were like, I cannot believe we're here. Of course, we weren't able to film anything. Yeah, we were there with our local producer who's from that area. He's from Sinaloa, so he knows it well. And we couldn't even take the cameras out, but we were having conversations with 25 year olds who spoke fluent, who lived in America, were there for the local party because it was a big party and they had flown in for the party and they were. Yeah. Again, wearing all these. Yeah. Dripped out. I was like, I cannot believe it. So, yeah, they, they're living it up. They are living it up.
- [49:15]
Josh Labor
It's a, it's, it's a lifestyle that they like to do. It's like, it's like they splurge, but they'll splurge in the ranchos and they'll make these huge parties. The, the. Some privadas.
- [49:24]
Mariana Van Zeller
Yeah.
- [49:25]
Josh Labor
And it's, it's. That's natural, bro. You know, they don't go to the club. They don't.
- [49:30]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
Yeah.
- [49:30]
Josh Labor
I don't know, probably they do, but, you know, they, they make their own party invite only, you know, this and that. Drugs, alcohol, top line, you know, top shelf things, you know, it's, it's very interesting.
- [49:41]
Mariana Van Zeller
Yeah, it is fascinating.
- [49:42]
Josh Labor
I was, I just happened to you.
- [49:45]
Mariana Van Zeller
Yeah, yeah, it was great.
- [49:46]
Josh Labor
And you joined the party, had a couple shots.
- [49:47]
Mariana Van Zeller
I danced, I danced, I danced. Another one of the cartel dudes.
- [49:51]
Josh Labor
No way.
- [49:51]
Mariana Van Zeller
Yeah. You came up, up to me as if I wanted to dance. I was like, oh, yeah, of course.
- [49:55]
Josh Labor
The fact that.
- [49:56]
Mariana Van Zeller
Just be careful with your gun there, dude.
- [50:00]
Josh Labor
The fact that you guys just drove up to try to get an interview with the mom.
- [50:06]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
Why did you guys pay, by the way?
- [50:08]
Mariana Van Zeller
Why didn't we pay? Yeah, because they, because as journalists, it's, it creates an incentive for people to just say what, whatever they want and be paid. And what. We're in, you know, we're in search of the truth. So it's not. We shouldn't be paying. Although, you know, there are these big talk shows that do pay for people to come up and talk to them. But in that case, it wouldn't be ethical for us as journalists to be paying El Chapo's mother to talk to us. And quite frankly, I think that if the goons weren't there that day, she would have, she would have spoken. She has spoken to the media, to the press before, my friend Producer Miguel Angelvega is an amazing journalist. Like, really the hero of all of this because he's been working in Sinaloa forever, takes some serious risks and has never backed down. And he gives. Gives us access to his world, essentially, to a world that he knows much better than I do. And he'd interviewed the mother before, so there was a chance that we'd be able to interview her. And I think really, it's sort of why they asked for money. It's not because they need money, you know, I mean, how much would we be able to give him if he wanted to? But it is sort of a. It's a power play on their part. And it's like, yeah, if you really want to. We're not going to give this shit for free. Even if it's just for like a few hundred bucks. Like, this is what it's going to cost you.
- [51:24]
Josh Labor
You know, Manette, I have a question for you. It's a silly question, but this is the first thing that popped up to my head. When you were a little girl and you would play truth or dare, would you always choose dare? Honestly? Honestly, it's like, you're such a daring person to. The fact that. Drive up to a job, like, I'm blown away by that. To like, yeah, everything should be fine.
- [51:46]
Mariana Van Zeller
You know, I don't. I never would never do that. Yeah, maybe. But I don't think I realized that other people didn't have that in them until much later in life.
- [51:57]
Josh Labor
Yeah.
- [51:57]
Mariana Van Zeller
I was like, oh, my God, this sounds, like, amazing. Let's go hang out with some, you know, foreign fighters in Iraq. That sounds so cool. And then other people wouldn't find that so cool.
- [52:07]
Josh Labor
Yeah.
- [52:08]
Mariana Van Zeller
And I wouldn't understand why. And I was like, maybe there's something wrong.
- [52:12]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
Yeah.
- [52:12]
Josh Labor
That's insane. That's insane. Yeah. How amazing. I was speaking with. I was joking around with Josh earlier. I'm like, dad, she travels so much. I was like, I wonder if she's diamond medallion on Delta.
- [52:22]
Mariana Van Zeller
I'm. I'm at Global Services on United.
- [52:25]
Josh Labor
Wow. Is that like top tier?
- [52:29]
Mariana Van Zeller
They treat me like royalty. I love United so much. I travel. I try to always travel United. I'm a big, big United.
- [52:35]
Josh Labor
You know what's crazy? It's either here maybe, I don't know, maybe just the people hang out. It's either Delta or American Airlines. Right? Like, United is kind of. Because I think Texas or somewhere is huge on United.
- [52:47]
Mariana Van Zeller
Yeah, it's. Houston is a big.
- [52:48]
Josh Labor
Houston, as you is the United hub. Yeah.
- [52:50]
Mariana Van Zeller
Yeah.
- [52:51]
Josh Labor
Flynn. United Cool times. Pretty nice.
- [52:52]
Mariana Van Zeller
It's pretty nice, right? I mean, wait until your global services. I get picked up in a RollsRoyce sometimes when I have tight connections at the airport to move me from one terminal to the other.
- [53:04]
Josh Labor
And I thought Delta was doing it with the.
- [53:07]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
Wow, that's insane.
- [53:10]
Josh Labor
That's crazy.
- [53:11]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
I saw this and I don't know if you were involved in this and I, I, I don't know. You can, you can let me know. Tony Robbins did like an undercover thing for like child human trafficking. Were you a part of that during regard.
- [53:22]
Mariana Van Zeller
Okay, no. What was it? What did he do?
- [53:24]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
I think they filmed like a movie, but he.
- [53:26]
Mariana Van Zeller
Oh, it was it with that, that, with the Freedom Yes Group.
- [53:30]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
Yeah, yeah. And I guess in order to do like research, he like went in undercover and like, like talked to these people and stuff. So I wasn't sure if you were like involved.
- [53:37]
Mariana Van Zeller
Do you know where?
- [53:39]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
I don't, I don't. Yeah.
- [53:40]
Mariana Van Zeller
I've done a bunch of stories on sex trafficking and I've spent time on, on the streets. I mean, even here in Figueroa, you have a big problem with sex trafficking and women on the streets. And we, we did a story on pimps basically for season one, where we spend time interviewing sex traffickers themselves and talking to victims. And it was, I mean, the fact that it happens right here in the open and every single day you drive down Figueroa, one of the biggest, you know, long.
- [54:08]
Josh Labor
Why do you think that? Why, why is it open? Nobody does anything about it. Like, I, I understand, but it sounds so, like it's so extreme what's going on down Figueroa and in la, you know, with the, with the women walking around in the, you know, in the bikinis and getting picked up, like no big deal cops. Is it just lack of though? I don't, they don't care.
- [54:29]
Mariana Van Zeller
I don't think it's because they don't care. I think that there's, I think that sometimes the approach is wrong. I think the, the approach is through law enforcement. Usually, very often it's about putting people in prison instead of trying to understand how do we actually cut this at the root. And there's a lot of cases of victims of sex trafficking that unfortunately they're rescued, they're taken out of the life and they fall back into their lives. A lot of people, times it's women who, you know, come from really broken families who don't have a lot of, you know, don't have self esteem or don't have a family to Fall back on or don't have opportunities and, you know, don't have the, the luck and the opportunities that we've been given.
- [55:14]
Josh Labor
Also, the pimps that they have have showed them more love than anybody in their life.
- [55:18]
Mariana Van Zeller
Exactly. It's the first people that have given them attention. And so it's easy sometimes to fall back into that life, which is really awful. And also I think that a lot of times they're going after. They're going after the victims instead of going after the traffickers themselves, because it's much harder to put a case against a trafficker because they're usually the ones hidden. Right. Than it is against a victim that are the ones out there actually fully explored.
- [55:41]
Josh Labor
And they're not going to say anything.
- [55:42]
Mariana Van Zeller
Yeah. So it's, it's, it's not as easy as it might look. But there are amazing officers out there and groups trying, even civilian groups trying to rescue women off the streets. It's just a little bit more complicated than you'd think. But they, yeah, they do amazing work and they should keep doing it.
- [56:02]
Josh Labor
Wow. And besides some of the stories that you have told, is there an episode that speaks to you where you're like, damn, we almost didn't make it out that episode. Or that could have been really horrible.
- [56:14]
Mariana Van Zeller
Yeah. I think the Niger one is a good example of that because we spent years trying to convince Nat Geo that we could go to one of the most dangerous places on earth and that it would be totally fine. We'd have a plan in place. We arrived in the country, they gave us a military escort because it is so dangerous. So the story is about gold trafficking and how illegal gold trafficking is actually funding some of the most dangerous terrorist organizations out there. And this isn't a place in the Sahel region of Africa. Illegal gold, Illegal gold trafficking. Yeah.
- [56:48]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
It's like stealing gold and then.
- [56:50]
Josh Labor
Or making fake gold.
- [56:51]
Mariana Van Zeller
So there's all these areas of the world, particularly in this area of the Sahel, it's the southern Sahara Desert, where there's enormous gold mines, a lot of gold stored under. Under land, underground. And they're these miners that go out there and they basically dig by hand. They start digging by hand, they use dynamite, they open up the ground, they start digging by hand, and they start extracting gold. But a lot of the gold that they sell ends up, and the money, the profits from it end up in the hands of isis, Boko Haram, al Qaeda organizations that are actively planning to attack Americans. So that was essentially the story we were doing. The US Government had just opened recently two military bases there just to combat terrorism. Exactly what the story we went there to tell. And we traveled into the desert. It took us. It was like a eight hour journey with military escort next to us. We had like well trained, most of them trained by American military actually, actually soldiers with AK47s traveling with us, making sure we were safe. Because again, this is very dangerous, right? And we filmed the gold mining. We went deep. We went to one of the mines, was about 100 meters deep. Was crazy. Like if you're claustrophobic, you would not want to be there.
- [58:14]
Josh Labor
It gives me anxiety.
- [58:15]
Mariana Van Zeller
And we got the cameras down there and we filmed them. I mean essentially digging by hand, wearing flip flops. Flops or no, no feet, no shoes.
- [58:23]
Josh Labor
They literally live down there.
- [58:24]
Mariana Van Zeller
They live down there and they're getting these loads of rocks that they bring up to the top. Back breaking work. Super dangerous. Many people killed every year doing this kind of work. They break open the rocks and they get these specks of gold that they then sell and they're making like a dollar or two a day. So it's. It's really crazy.
- [58:42]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
Specks of gold.
- [58:42]
Mariana Van Zeller
It's not even like specs that then you put it melded together. You use all sorts of different techniques. Techniques including mercury, unfortunately. And you then sell it. And we filmed the whole process. So we were there, we slept overnight, camped out in the desert with the miners and the military escort soldiers that were with there. I was the only woman on site. And then we went back to town. We were so happy. We got all the footage we needed. It was incredible material. And then as we were arriving in town, this small town that is sort of the center of gold smuggling, human smuggling, drug trafficking, all of it happens around this town. Terrorism groups, all of it. And we found out that there had been a military coup and the democratically elect president had been deposed and the military coup leaders were now in power and they closed all the airspace and the border. So there was no way out. That happened the moment that we arrived. It had just happened. And that meant that even if we wanted badly to get out of there, we could not. We were stuck. And there was potential incoming war because there were countries and the neighboring countries weren't happy with it. There was an escalation of conflict and violence about to go down. And we lost our military escorts, so we lost our protection. And we were in a little rundown hotel that was built by Gaddafi in the 80s. Myself again the only woman and my team of incredible awesome men from Natio all of which, you know, I felt enormous responsibility as an executive producer on the show. And all their families were calling us nonstop and trying to figure out what the fuck is happening and how can we get our people back. And. And Jeff, who's sitting over there, and my team here in LA started a crazy job of trying to figure out a way to get us out there. And it was nine or ten days of excruciating stress. I'm not a stressed person in general. I'm not an anxious person. And it was just horrible.
- [60:44]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
Were you, like, in hiding?
- [60:45]
Mariana Van Zeller
We weren't in hiding. We actually actively decided when we realized that the war wasn't going to start. Wasn't breaking out immediately there.
- [60:53]
Josh Labor
Yeah.
- [60:53]
Mariana Van Zeller
That we were just going to keep telling our story. So we had plans to meet a former ISIS member to interview him. So we actually got out of the hotel and went and interview the ISIS member we interviewed.
- [61:06]
Josh Labor
What should we do for fun? Right now? I'm kind of bored.
- [61:10]
Mariana Van Zeller
It was essentially that we were like, we can't stay in this. Locked into this hotel. We just have to keep going about our work and do our stuff. And then we. We interviewed a human, a gold trafficker who also trafficked human beings because. And in the middle of the interview, I was interviewing for girl traffic. And then I realized, wait a second, is there a chance that if we pay you, you will smuggle us out of the country?
- [61:34]
Josh Labor
Oh, my.
- [61:35]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
Wow. And what did he say?
- [61:36]
Mariana Van Zeller
He said, you guys are Americans. You're a high target. Level targets. You're high level targets. Absolutely not. It is way too dangerous for me to do that. Yeah, right.
- [61:48]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
That's what you do. Right.
- [61:49]
Mariana Van Zeller
I thought we were so smart. And, yeah. My team, after nine days locked in, figured out a plan to get us out of the country, which involved these two crazy pilots that were willing to come into the country in the middle of the night. They had 20 minutes on the ground for us to get to the airport.
- [62:09]
Josh Labor
How do you even find these people?
- [62:10]
Mariana Van Zeller
Oh, it was an evacuation company.
- [62:12]
Josh Labor
Crazy.
- [62:13]
Mariana Van Zeller
That was incredible.
- [62:14]
Josh Labor
An evacuation?
- [62:15]
Mariana Van Zeller
Yeah, because the initial one that we had paid decided they were too scared to come and they didn't have a plan in place for us. So we made that part of the story. It's an awesome episode. If you haven't watched it. Is it really.
- [62:27]
Josh Labor
Episode what?
- [62:27]
Mariana Van Zeller
It's season four and it's called Caught in an African Coup. And it's a really good episode because that all becomes part of the story. Like our journey of trying to get out of there. Yeah. It was Crazy is the part where
- [62:39]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
you ask the guy if he could smuggle you out.
- [62:41]
Mariana Van Zeller
100%. 100%. I love that it is. And me on the phone yelling at the evacuation company that's telling us that they have no. No plans for us, and they have no idea what they're doing. All of it is part of.
- [62:53]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
I keep hearing you say, like, part of, like, the. And I know this is part of, like, journalism, but, like, you guys are doing, like, so much extensive work before you guys even step foot into, like, anything, whether it be, like, safety or resources that you guys might have.
- [63:05]
Mariana Van Zeller
Absolutely.
- [63:06]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
Is there a project that you've been working on for, like, years that still haven't come to fruition because you're still trying to figure out how to do it?
- [63:12]
Mariana Van Zeller
Yeah, there's many. You know, that one was one. We started pitching that story to Nat Geo in season one, and it wasn't until season four, so three years and a half later, that it was that they greenlit it. And it was only because we had finally secured sort of a plan and a security team in place for us to go and do that safely until we got punched in the face, essentially. And it didn't go as planned. Best plans don't usually go.
- [63:38]
Josh Labor
Go.
- [63:38]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
Well, do you have to sign, like, a crazy liability waiver for Netgeo because, like, how much risk your situations can be, and, like, because if something were to happen to you. Right. Or the team, like, that falls on them, I would assume, kind of.
- [63:52]
Mariana Van Zeller
Let's hope they don't see you saying that.
- [63:56]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [63:58]
Mariana Van Zeller
Yes, yes. And then we can take it. You know, quite frankly, that is part of the reason I believe we weren't renewed for another season. We did five seasons, which is amazing.
- [64:06]
Josh Labor
Yeah.
- [64:06]
Mariana Van Zeller
So thankful to them for the work that we've done.
- [64:09]
Josh Labor
Of course.
- [64:10]
Mariana Van Zeller
But that is part of it. I mean, the insurance alone is incredibly expensive. Every time we travel, we're paying, you know, thousands and thousands of dollars to insurance.
- [64:18]
Josh Labor
So that's kind of badass. So it's like, you know, I was too dangerous for them.
- [64:23]
Mariana Van Zeller
Yeah, it is.
- [64:25]
Josh Labor
Wow.
- [64:25]
Mariana Van Zeller
But I'll keep doing it. Keep doing it.
- [64:27]
Josh Labor
I'm gonna do it on my own now. I am. That's really, really cool. And I can't wait to see what else brings in the near future for you.
- [64:36]
Mariana Van Zeller
Thank you. Thanks.
- [64:37]
Josh Labor
I'm excited. You know, when you sit down and you speak with somebody so incredible like yourself, I have natural human questions that I just think about.
- [64:46]
Mariana Van Zeller
Yeah, please.
- [64:46]
Josh Labor
Like, what. What does Mariana do for fun? Where do you go vacation. Like, clearly you're not somebody that, like, goes into a room and you're like, this is not right. You know, because you've been through, like, the trenches, slept in tents, you know, done this. Like what? Like, you're probably such a. I'm not. You're not.
- [65:07]
Mariana Van Zeller
You're wrong. Whatever word you're looking for. I'm not superficial.
- [65:11]
Josh Labor
Yeah.
- [65:12]
Mariana Van Zeller
You know what I mean. Okay. I. I love shopping.
- [65:17]
Josh Labor
Okay.
- [65:18]
Mariana Van Zeller
I love going to antique markets. Oh, I love wine more than anyone. You know, that is my guilty pleasure. Really. Sparkling wine is my jam.
- [65:27]
Josh Labor
Okay.
- [65:28]
Mariana Van Zeller
I like champagne, but that sounds very hidey toity. So I. Prosecco or whatever. Sparkling wine is how I call it. I. Yeah, I love going out to dinner with my friends. I'm very super. I love. Yeah, I love beauty. I love beautiful things. I love interior design. My best friend is an interior designer. I'm, like, obsessed with interior design.
- [65:51]
Josh Labor
You probably have so many, like, artifacts from all over the world. I do.
- [65:54]
Mariana Van Zeller
I've collected things from all over the world.
- [65:56]
Josh Labor
My house is the coolest thing a human can do other than have babies.
- [65:59]
Mariana Van Zeller
I love it. Yeah. Often times it actually takes precedence where my team is waiting for me to go and do an interview of a trafficker. And I was like, wait a second, guys. There's this market I have to go to first.
- [66:12]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
I love that. Is there somewhere you want to go that you haven't missed?
- [66:15]
Josh Labor
Oh, great question.
- [66:16]
Mariana Van Zeller
There is, actually.
- [66:17]
Josh Labor
Yeah.
- [66:18]
Mariana Van Zeller
Iran is high on our list. We've wanted to do a story in Iran for a long time. And then, funnily enough, Mongolia. I've been pitching a story to Nat Geo from season one about dino bones. There's a big market, illegal market of dinosaur bones in the Gobi Desert of Mongolia that now go out to auctions, like Sotheby's as having. Sotheby's is having these big auctions where these dino bones go for hundreds of thousands of dollars.
- [66:45]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
They're really cool, though.
- [66:45]
Mariana Van Zeller
It was Nick Cage. Nick Cage and. Oh, my God. Who was the other actor? Nick Cage and DiCaprio. It was Nick Cage and DiCaprio. Nicholas Cage and DiCaprio had a bidding war, a bidding war for one of these.
- [67:04]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
Like, it'll be like T. Rex.
- [67:05]
Josh Labor
Heads.
- [67:06]
Mariana Van Zeller
Heads.
- [67:06]
Josh Labor
Yeah, bro.
- [67:07]
Mariana Van Zeller
In that case, it was like a bone of T. Rex.
- [67:09]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
So is that illegal?
- [67:11]
Mariana Van Zeller
Not all of it is, but it's believed. There is, I know, a big black market, legal market. Four bones that are coming out of the Gobi Desert in Mongolia. So if anyone wants to fund this project, yeah, hit me up.
- [67:22]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
That's fascinating. Fascinating. Yeah, you can buy art pieces of, like actual T. Rex's heads, bro. Yeah, like, it's wild. And people are bidding like hundreds of millions of dollars for this.
- [67:33]
Mariana Van Zeller
Yeah, it's really good. It's a great. It's a freaking great story. Now Gio never wanted to do it, and I. I still want to do it.
- [67:39]
Josh Labor
Yeah.
- [67:40]
Mariana Van Zeller
Yeah.
- [67:40]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
Let me get. Let me get rich real quick, girl.
- [67:42]
Josh Labor
I got you.
- [67:43]
Mariana Van Zeller
Please do. You can come with me.
- [67:45]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
I do.
- [67:45]
Mariana Van Zeller
Yeah.
- [67:46]
Josh Labor
Imagine just. You can keep.
- [67:48]
Mariana Van Zeller
You can keep whatever bone you find.
- [67:52]
Josh Labor
Just imagine hanging out with her for a whole week. What you bring back home, not just memories, but what you actually bring back home is crazy.
- [67:59]
Mariana Van Zeller
All the contraband. I actually, you know, in my podcast studio, I have a lot of the contraband behind me.
- [68:05]
Josh Labor
Really?
- [68:06]
Mariana Van Zeller
People usually, you can't really tell unless. So one of the things I have is a fake $100 bill that looks exactly like a real hundred dollar bill, but it's fake. It's contraband. It's a fake bill that we got in one of the first stories we ever did for Traffic, which is about illegal contraband, counterfeit dollars.
- [68:23]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
How identical is it to them?
- [68:25]
Mariana Van Zeller
It's incredible. I mean, they. They're supposed. They're made so that they look, they feel, they even smell like real bills. And it's incredible. Yeah, it's real. Yeah.
- [68:37]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
What, like, what year? What year?
- [68:39]
Mariana Van Zeller
That's how I've been funding a lot of my shopping.
- [68:41]
Josh Labor
I believe it might want to take that out. Before we end the episode, just one last question. This journalism and what you've been doing in your life, it's in. In the world that you have seen, right, the people that you have met, what's something that you're going to take back home about humanity and something that you have learned from doing all of this?
- [69:13]
Mariana Van Zeller
Yeah.
- [69:15]
Josh Labor
Does that make any sense?
- [69:16]
Mariana Van Zeller
100%. I think that it's. At the end of the day, no matter how far I travel or how dark it gets, that I'm still able to connect with people on a human level and find redeeming redemption and, you know, humanity in everyone. And that's pretty special. It gives me enormous hope about the world, that it's the systems that are broken, that it's this inequality that is oppressing people, and that there is a way actually to create. I mean, it sounds very, very cheesy, but there is a way actually to create a more equal and fair world with less black markets and with more opportunities for all of us. And that's part of the work that I do is that I want there it to be a conversation starter for all of us to look at the world's. The lives we lead, the opportunities that we've been given, and what are we doing with our own lives, and how can we turn that, you know, that privilege and that luck into something meaningful?
- [70:23]
Josh Labor
Wow. Thank you.
- [70:24]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
It was beautifully put. I have one question, actually, my last question. You said you've been on Joe Rogan five times. Congratulations.
- [70:31]
Mariana Van Zeller
That's four or five. And I want to make sure I say right. I've been three. Four times, I think.
- [70:35]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
Oh, four times.
- [70:36]
Josh Labor
Okay.
- [70:36]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
How did we compare to Joe Rogan?
- [70:38]
Mariana Van Zeller
You know what, guys? I hope Joe Rogan doesn't save it for this. You know, Joe likes to talk, so he talks. You hear a lot of his stories and his thoughts on things, so I talk less. Even though his podcasts are three hours, I think I talk a lot less when I'm with him than I did today. So I was. I really enjoyed the opportunity of telling you guys everything from my origin story to why I do what I do and what I love. I love talking about what I do. So you guys have given me that platform, and you hear that, Joe, You. You guys have a really awesome bigger studio than Joe. I mean, just the recording studio.
- [71:21]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've heard, I've heard.
- [71:25]
Mariana Van Zeller
But Joe. Joe has been a big supporter of my work.
- [71:26]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
I know, and that's incredible. And I know he's, like, very fascinated, as he should be. Very fascinating person. Yeah. This was an incredible experience, honestly, being able to hear you out and listen to you. We take pride in having guests and, like, making it about them. Like, this is our show, and we get to do it every week, but every once in a while, we get to sit down with incredible people who have amazing stories to tell. And so I'm glad that we gave you the platform and, you know, ability to do so.
- [71:50]
Mariana Van Zeller
And I understand why you're guys podcast is so popular because you guys are really good at what you do.
- [71:54]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
This is awesome.
- [71:55]
Josh Labor
Thank you. Appreciate what you said.
- [71:58]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
Nothing. I was talking about myself.
- [71:59]
Josh Labor
Oh, okay. Mariana, unchingo de gracias. Thank you so much. I totally forgot to talk about how many languages she knows, but maybe we'll save it for the next episode. Let's do another one, if that's okay.
- [72:12]
Mariana Van Zeller
I would love to.
- [72:12]
Josh Labor
You know, I feel like I can talk to you all day.
- [72:14]
Mariana Van Zeller
I would love that.
- [72:15]
Josh Labor
I'm glad everybody got to know Mariana Van Zeller. Thank you so much for being here. Check out traffic. There's much. So five seasons already. They're already out. You know when you like, like, like you ask your friend like, is there a new show I should get into? And they recommend a good one where there's already five scenes so you can binge watch. Well, here you go, buddy. Not only that, follow her on social, on all social media platforms on the description down below and follow her podcast cuz she just got a new subscriber like myself. So, Mariana, once again, muchas, muchas, muchas grac. It was so nice to meet you. You're an incredible person and thank you so much for doing the exploration that you do. Because it opens up not only our eyes, but the world's eyes and what the real world is.
- [72:56]
Mariana Van Zeller
I would sign off in Portuguese,
- [73:00]
Josh Labor
whatever that meant.
- [73:02]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
Whatever it is, I'm in.
- [73:03]
Josh Labor
Sure, Mariana, sure.
- [73:05]
Mariana Van Zeller
Whatever says it's many.
- [73:08]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
Thank you.
- [73:09]
Josh Labor
Thank you very much. Obrigado is thank you. Yeah, yeah, got it.
- [73:12]
Mariana Van Zeller
That's wasn't a curse.
- [73:19]
Josh Labor
Ciao.
- [73:19]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
There it is, y'.
- [73:20]
Josh Labor
All.
- [73:20]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
Love y'.
- [73:20]
Josh Labor
All.
- [73:20]
Co-host (possibly Miguel Angelvega or another male co-host)
We'll see you guys.
- [73:20]
Josh Labor
Bye.