Last Update on the Left - Episode 8 - Waco: David Koresh, the Branch Davidians, and a Legacy of Rage - An Interview with Jeff Guinn

Summary

Last Podcast on the Left: Last Update on the Left – Episode 8

Title: Waco: David Koresh, the Branch Davidians, and a Legacy of Rage – An Interview with Jeff Guinn
Date: November 14, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this rich and deeply researched episode, the hosts of Last Podcast on the Left welcome author Jeff Guinn to discuss his new book on the Waco siege, David Koresh, and the Branch Davidians. Guinn, known for his definitive works on Jonestown, Manson, and other notorious American tragedies, shares investigative insights into why these stories captivate national attention, the mythologies around cults, and Waco's ongoing impact on American society and radicalization. The conversation examines the complexities of historical truth, the motivations of cult leaders, what sets Waco apart from events like Jonestown or Manson, and the tragic interplay of misunderstanding that led to the deadly siege.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Jeff Guinn’s Motivation and Approach to Infamous Events

• [04:11] Guinn clarifies he isn’t "attracted just to tragedy," but to how iconic events shape national consciousness and mythologies, influencing policy and public perception, e.g., how “the word cult began taking on a much more horrific sort of meaning.”
• He connects Jonestown, Manson, and Waco as American “big three” tragedies, each unique, yet influencing subsequent coverage and government responses.

2. Separating Mythology from Fact in American History

• [07:32] Guinn discusses how public narratives and myth-making cloud history, noting the abundance of so-called “experts” due to the internet:

  “A lot of what many people consider to be history is just mythology and ...we put our own sort of personal spin on it.” – Jeff Guinn [07:32]

• He insists on writing as a “blank slate,” prioritizing exhaustive research and encouraging readers to consult detailed chapter notes for sources.

3. Historical Integrity and Dealing with Deniers

• [10:13] Guinn emphasizes the importance of transparent sourcing via chapter notes, sharing an anecdote about a caller who condemned his Waco book as “nothing but lies” despite never reading it:

  “You don't have to believe me. Look in the notes. You can see where I got this and you can look for yourself.” – Jeff Guinn [11:52]

4. Assessing Eyewitness Accounts and Contradictions

• [17:53] On interviewing survivors and officials, Guinn explains that when testimonies conflict, he presents all sides and lets independent accounts tip the scale—e.g., every local media witness agreed, “the firing began from inside Mount Carmel”:

  “After a while, you just... feel like, yeah, maybe not. But I'm talking to people on both sides who I'm convinced truly believe what they're saying is right.” – Jeff Guinn [18:29]

5. Branch Davidian Survivors’ Unshaken Faith

• [21:20] Unlike Manson and Jonestown survivors who expressed regret, surviving Branch Davidians still venerate Koresh:

  “Every one of them... still felt connected to David Koresh... They believed that he had loved his followers. He believed what he was saying, and they believed him.” – Jeff Guinn [21:20]

• Guinn describes how he revealed to survivors that Koresh had copied earlier prophecies from Cyrus Teed, yet, “They weren't impolite... but we know better because we knew David.” [25:59]

6. Failure of Law Enforcement to Grasp Branch Davidian Beliefs

• [26:53] Guinn criticizes the FBI and ATF for dismissing the Davidians’ theology as “Bible babble.” Had they understood the religious worldview, the siege might have been avoided:

  “None of them thought it was necessary to understand the other side. And whenever we get that situation, tragedy is certain.” – Jeff Guinn [28:28]

7. Media, Motivations, and Tragedy’s Aftershocks

• [29:00] Guinn laments how improved communication technology hasn’t led to mutual understanding but greater division. He mentions evangelists framing Trump as a “reincarnation of King Cyrus” [29:39].
• The ATF’s motives for raiding Waco were influenced by agency PR, the Ruby Ridge aftermath, congressional scrutiny, and “serious gun law” violations by the Davidians [31:45].

8. Cults, Demagogues, and the Need to Deliver

• [35:05] All charismatic cult leaders face “the obligation to deliver” fulfill apocalyptic prophecies to maintain devotion; if not, they risk losing their followers:

  “When you're a prophet... at some point, well, it better happen because prophets have to deliver.” – Jeff Guinn [35:13]

• Guinn theorizes that if outside forces hadn’t intervened, “something would have popped” internally, precipitated either by state or by Koresh himself.

9. True Belief or Manipulation? Cult Leadership Explained

• [40:41] Guinn describes the arc of every demagogue: Identify a unique crisis, isolate followers, demonize outside voices, and continually ratchet up demands for loyalty.

  “Any demagogue usually will use some fragment of truth and build it into something much greater.” – Jeff Guinn [40:41]

• Jones, Manson, Koresh all followed this pattern. Jim Jones, uniquely, retained contradictory flashes of genuine kindness, further complicating his villainy [48:13].

10. Theology Above All: Koresh’s Sincere Belief

• [48:55] The panel discusses whether Koresh was manipulative or sincerely believed in his ‘Lamb’ identity. Guinn says Koresh “plagiarized Cyrus Teed but I don’t think he knew he was doing it.” [48:55]
• Biblical scholars confirmed that Koresh’s scriptural logic often surprised even experts. His followers were predisposed to seek a living prophet, priming them for Koresh’s charisma.

11. How Did the Fire Start? Multiple Theories

• [55:33] Guinn presents the four central theories: government-initiated fire, accident, suicide by Branch Davidians, and finally, a “holy fire” as a show of prophecy fulfillment:

  “If you’re David Koresh... What if there’s a fire? But it’s a holy fire, and God uses this wall of flames to protect them from the agents of Babylon.” – Jeff Guinn [60:32]

• Personally, after exhaustive research, Guinn leans toward Koresh believing “God was going to prove in this way that David Koresh was right and everybody else was wrong.” [61:26]

12. On Writing, Criticism, and American Myth

• Guinn reflects on dealing with critics, Western mythology, and making a living writing about American tragedy—as a matter of being “lucky,” not chasing profit or glory [64:57].

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I've been threatened by Charlie Manson! Do you think you scare me?” – Jeff Guinn [03:09]
• “Readers deserve to know that people who claim to be historians aren't just taking a few facts and making the rest up out of their imaginations.” – Jeff Guinn [10:13]
• “If your mama says you were born on a Friday, check just in case.” – Jeff Guinn [17:53]
• “This is what they staked their lives on... I couldn't expect they're going to say, well, thank you for proving we were absolutely wrong.” – Jeff Guinn [26:00]
• “None of them thought it was necessary to understand the other side. And whenever we get that situation, tragedy is certain.” – Jeff Guinn [28:28]
• “When you're a prophet... at some point, well, it better happen because prophets have to deliver.” – Jeff Guinn [35:13]
• “Any demagogue usually will use some fragment of truth and build it into something much greater.” – Jeff Guinn [40:41]
• “Koresh was an asshole... but he never ever tries to trick them. He always uses the Bible and will talk with them... until finally they see his side.” – Jeff Guinn [52:55]
• “I truly believe that at the last minute, Koresh thought it was going to be holy fire... God was going to prove in this way that David Koresh was right and everybody else was wrong.” – Jeff Guinn [61:26]
• “I'm not a great writer, but I'm a lucky one. And I have been able to spend the last 20 years doing nothing but picking subjects I want to know more about…” – Jeff Guinn [66:04]

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Key Segment Timestamps

• Introduction and Guinn’s background: [03:22]
• Motivation for choosing Waco & misunderstanding of cults: [04:11]
• Media, myth, and historical methodology: [07:32]
• Sourcing and responding to critics: [10:13]
• Interviewing contradictory witnesses: [17:53]
• Surviving Davidians & faith in Koresh: [21:20]
• Police/FBI ignorance of Branch Davidian beliefs: [26:53]
• How law enforcement failures bred greater tragedy: [28:41]
• ATF’s motives and Waco’s build-up: [31:45]
• Nature of cult leadership & follower psychology: [40:41]
• Koresh’s scriptural manipulation and sincerity: [48:55]
• Theories behind the fire & Koresh’s probable motivation: [55:33]
• Reflections on writing, criticism, American myth: [64:57]
• Closing thoughts and gratitude: [67:03]

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Tone and Flow

The episode mixes the dark, sharp humor of the Last Podcast hosts with Guinn’s measured, research-driven insights. The conversation is respectful, often witty, and packed with surprising details, self-aware asides, and a thoughtful exploration of belief, myth, and truth in American tragedy. This balance ensures listeners receive both entertainment and substantive, skeptical examination.

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For Listeners Who Missed the Episode

This episode is essential listening for anyone curious about Waco, American cults, and how myths shape reality. Guinn’s depth of research and firsthand interviews offer a nuanced, humanized portrait of all sides—Branch Davidians, law enforcement, and the media—while Last Podcast’s hosts steer the discussion with trademark irreverence and intelligent curiosity. The exploration of cult psychology, law enforcement error, and enduring rage provides a haunting lens for understanding not just Waco, but broader divisions in American society.

Transcript

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[Jeff Guinn]

That'S when the cannibalism started. Hey, folks. Hi. How you doing?

[Left Podcast Host 1]

How you doing, sir?

[Jeff Guinn]

Okay.

[Left Podcast Host 1]

Yeah, we can hear you. Great. How you doing today?

[Jeff Guinn]

Doing fine. Thanks for letting me be on your show.

[Left Podcast Host 2]

Dude, I can. I say before we can just a buttle. You're not going to hear from me again. Normally, right? Because I'm the funny one. I sit here to the side.

[Left Podcast Host 3]

I'm.

[Left Podcast Host 2]

You are an extremely intelligent, good man. We love your work here. We are unabashed fans of your work. I've read a lot of your books. You're very smart. I'm the stupid one. So now I'm going to fade into the background.

[Jeff Guinn]

Why do I think that might be a cruel trick?

[Left Podcast Host 2]

No, we're good here. This isn't a gotcha place.

[Left Podcast Host 1]

Yeah, no, it's like, we're like. I'm such a huge fan. Road to Jonestown Go Down Together. Like, I. I'm a massive fan of your work. I really am, but it's just, you're.

[Jeff Guinn]

It's nice of you to say. I appreciate it, guys.

[Left Podcast Host 2]

Always butter them up first.

[Left Podcast Host 1]

That's what I've heard in this book as well. This new Waco book. Like, it's just. Okay, so. And we're going to be talking about. And I. I still, like, I'm saving your Manson book for a special. Like, I don't know why I was like, one of these days, I'm. I'm saving it for when I like, need it. Like when I need it for my soul. Like, I'm saving your man. Because I know it's going to be so incredible.

[Jeff Guinn]

Well, Charlie hated it, so maybe that's a recommend issue. I don't know. He actually posted my home address and contact information on the website. His followers kept up for him. He was so pissed.

[Left Podcast Host 1]

Wow.

[Left Podcast Host 2]

Was he offended?

[Jeff Guinn]

Well, I found his sister and his cousin and was able to get a lot of information about his childhood that didn't sort of match up with what Charlie tried to present as his poor blighted kid. And so he sent me a letter telling me, you know, that better not get published. And when it did, he was unhappy. But it was a good thing in a way, because, you know, these books, sometimes people get mad about them. The Waco book is a good example. And they will. They will say something the effect of, well, we know how to handle your kind. And I can say, truthfully, I've been threatened by Charlie Manson. Do you think you scare me?

[Left Podcast Host 2]

That's a good intro.

[Left Podcast Host 1]

And that's where we're gonna start this interview. Today. We have with us one of our favorite authors. You've heard us talk about his. His books on this show again and again. We're so happy to have on the show Jeff Guinn, author of the new book Waco. Thank you so much for joining us today.

[Jeff Guinn]

It's a real pleasure. Thanks for letting me be on.

[Left Podcast Host 1]

Of course. Well, I mean, well, the books that you've written. You wrote Road to Jonestown, which I consider to be the definitive work on the Jonestown tragedy. You wrote a book about Bonnie and Clyde, go down together, you've written books about Charles Manson. And of course, your new book is about Waco. What is it that makes you seek out these stories that are so big, so legendary, and most of all, so confusing to most people?

[Jeff Guinn]

Well, I'm not actually attracted just to tragedy. I don't look for something that's got a lot of death, you know, a lot of sadness involved. What I am interested in is things that happen, iconic events that take on a life of their own afterward and change the way we as a country, as a society, tend to look at things. To a certain extent. The reaction to Jim Jones in Jonestown was based on what had happened with Manson some years ago. People had already decided crazy cult, weird followers kill, you know, kill people for no particular reason. And the word cult began taking on a much more horrific sort of meaning to most people than it originally was intended to have. And when you get to Waco and the events that happened there, and as I researched it, the people in the FBI, in atf, even some of the surviving Branch Davidians, talked about the things that happened in Waco in part were based on folks thinking, if we don't do something, it's going to be another Jones toown when it would never have been that. But people equated all of them the same Way. So having written about Manson, having written about Jim Jones in modern American history, there's sort of a big three here, deservedly or not. And I thought the 30th anniversary. Let's take a look at David Kesh and Wobble. Let's try to see how much the past played into the things that happened there and the similarities with the Branch Davidians and their leader and the differences between Jim Jones and People's Temple, Charlie Manson and the Manson Family, David Koresh and the Branch Davidians, because they are all very different.

[Left Podcast Host 2]

Well, we know that David Koresh was much physically cuter than Jim Jones. He was probably. I probably. If you were going to list them by hotness, I would put him above Jim Jones. But that's one of my sort of the side realizations.

[Left Podcast Host 3]

Yeah, Jim Jones was a little too much Roy Orbison.

[Jeff Guinn]

You may feel that way yourself, but Jim Jones would have thought he damn well knew better.

[Left Podcast Host 2]

Can I ask you a dumb question before we get deeper into. Is there a big difference? Like, obviously you get into these stories that are now, like, in your own research, you seem to be revising them for us. Like, these are common, big. These are big, important stories to you said these important parts of the American, our American history, especially modern American history. And what is like, the core difference between, like, the way this information is portrayed and the information that people carry versus what actually happened? Like, I feel like that's where you're seeing a butt up against where it's like they use Charles Manson's face to scare people, but you don't actually really know. He was actually more so like a fully institutionalized, not very skilled cult leader that, you know, like. But on one. But he was this American boogeyman that ended the hippie movement. Like, on this, a bigger, broader scope.

[Jeff Guinn]

Well, the thing that that's always important to remember is that a lot of what many people consider to be history is just mythology and that all of us, whatever, something big happens, we put our own sort of personal spin on it. As communications expand, technology expands with the Internet now for just about any important activity or individual in modern history, any hour of the day or night, you can read something new from someone claiming, well, I know exactly what all this is about. And a lot of people think they're experts. One of the things I always have going for me in my books, I say this and people think I'm joking and I'm quite serious. I never want to write a book where I think I know everything that happened. Because if I do that when I'm doing my research. I'm only going to be looking for things that reinforce what I already think. I'm lucky in that my ignorance is so wide. There's so many things I know I don't know about, from Manson to Jim Jones to Waco, that I can go in sort of like a blank slate, and whatever I find is what I'm going to write. I never go in thinking I'm going to prove this, that, or the other thing. I'm just going to go in, get all the facts I can, and let the reader decide what he or she wants to think. My job is not to tell you what you have to think. My job is just to give you the information that helps you make an informed opinion.

[Left Podcast Host 1]

I mean, that's one of the reasons why I love you as a writer, and that's why you've been such a huge influence on this podcast as well, because we approach things much the same way. And that's the thing. Because a lot of these stories, so much of the. So much of them are. Is unknowable. Like, we can't really know what happened inside the Branch Davidian compound. We can't know what happened during a Charles Manson acid trip. You know, like. And we can't really know. We can't know a lot about what actually occurred in those last moments in Jonestown. We don't know what happened in the room before Jim Jones died. But when you're writing these books, like, how. How do you discern what you want to put in that book? How do you discern what sort of information you deem to be like, this is worth knowing. This is worth, you know, writing about.

[Jeff Guinn]

One of the advantages of writing narrative nonfiction is that I think any writer who's presenting something like this has the obligation not just to have the chapters themselves, but the chapter notes. What I want to make certain of is when anybody reads a book of mine and they think, wait a minute, you know, where's this coming from? I want to make sure they know it's not from the author's imagination. That's why in the notes to every chapter, everything I present as a fact in any chapter will be in those notes. So a reader could go to the same place and look for themselves. What I always tell people who say, and for every book, there will be people who say, well, I think you made this up. You know, I. I don't think it actually happened that way. And what I always tell them is, you don't have to believe me. Look in the notes. You can see where I got this and you can look for yourself. Readers deserve to know that people who claim to be historians aren't just taking a few facts and making the rest up out of their imaginations. And of course, there's always some readers who are going to won't believe it anyway. I once had a guy on a call in show identify himself as the gentleman from Tennessee. And I said, well, do you have a question about my book? And this is the Waco book. And he said, I don't have a question. I have a statement. I thought, well, this is going to be fun. Yeah. Yeah. Well, okay, what's your statement? Every page is full of lies. There is nothing but lies in that book. It's a disaster. It's horrible. Never should have been published. And I said, you know, I'm really pretty careful in my books and in the chapter notes to say exactly where I got everything. So let's do this. Tell me one thing you read in my book that you're claiming I made up. And he said, oh, I didn't read your book. I didn't have to.

[Left Podcast Host 2]

Thank you, sir. Thank you for buying my book. Now, I mean, you know, just like send him a free one.

[Jeff Guinn]

Hey, as long as he bought it, he can say what he wants.

[Left Podcast Host 2]

Exactly. That's what I say.

[Jeff Guinn]

From your grave.

[Left Podcast Host 3]

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[Jeff Guinn]

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[Left Podcast Host 3]

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[Left Podcast Host 2]

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[Left Podcast Host 3]

All these extreme situations or you're reading about stuff, obviously you know people lie. You know, to you.

[Left Podcast Host 2]

How do you.

[Left Podcast Host 3]

How do you real. How do you just know that they're lying? Or do you print it anyway and say, that's just what this person said? Or how do you go about that?

[Jeff Guinn]

I never take anyone's word for anything. And when I talk to college writing courses about these books of mine, I say, if your mama says you were born on a Friday, check just in case. Now, a lot of times you can't be sure there are people in the same place at the same time who are claiming something completely opposite. Now, what does that mean? Well, human nature is that if you're part of a group in a terrible, chaotic situation, any two people there are going to remember parts of it differently. And when that happens, what I try to do is say, okay, here are the conflicting reports, and this is what each side says. And sometimes there's a third group, like in the Waco book, ATF agents. And believe me, I talked to almost three dozen of them. Everyone's swearing the Branch Davidians fired first, Right? They have no doubt, the Branch Davidians. And again, when I interview folks, I'm doing this over a period of years, I get to know them a little bit. And just like you guys, you've interviewed so many people, you can probably get a sense when somebody is BSing you. After a while, you just. You feel like, yeah, maybe not. But I'm talking to people on both sides who I'm convinced, truly believe what they're saying is right. So I put both sides of it in the book. Who fired first, whether the helicopters fired or not. But I also talked to a half dozen members of the local media. Reporters, TV cameramen, who were right there the whole way. Every one of them. Everyone. And I interviewed them separately, and every interview, two people together so they reinforce each other's stories. Every one of those folks said the firing began from inside Mount Carmel. The Branch Davidians were firing first on atf. Now, what I ended up doing in the book was giving both sides ATF and Branch Davidian. And then I point out that a third group, the ones who aren't affiliated either side, are unanimous. The Branch Davidians fired First. But readers, again, they can make up their minds.

[Left Podcast Host 2]

How many Branch Davidians survived after the incident.

[Jeff Guinn]

Nine got out alive, all adults. There were some that had come out during the whole standoff and there were a few others, Paul Fada in particular, who was away at a gun show selling some of those illegal weapons that morning. But you had ultimately about, oh, 20 people who had been Branch Davidians were either in there during the siege and barely escaped with their lives or were affiliated with the Branch Davidians but didn't happen to be in there at the moment of the raid and didn't get trapped in there.

[Left Podcast Host 2]

When you spoke to them, were they still like in the group or they do. They have a lot of them moved away from their belief system.

[Jeff Guinn]

Here's something that's a little unique about people in this book. Okay. When I did the Manson book, and I've tracked members of the Manson Family, including some of the convicted murderers who were still in prison, every one of them said, oh my God, I was so stupid with Charlie Manson. I was a dumb kid. There were a lot of drugs. You know, I spend every day thinking what a fool I was. I have spent so much time with former members of People's Temple. So a couple of whom escaped that day in Jonestown, others who were in the Guyanese capital city and were in Jonestown that day. Every one of them, when I look back, how could I have been taken in by Jim Jones, though? They stress, and it's, it's a fact that they were part of People's Temple, not out of personal greed or looking for power, but that they were trying to help make the world a better place.

[Left Podcast Host 2]

Sure, because they really did have a beautiful beginning. It just went back.

[Jeff Guinn]

They did, yeah. But the, the Branch Davidians who survived. One of the big worries I had writing this book, while I was writing it, I found it out about Cyrus Teed. I devoted months to tracking him and I finally found documents in an archive in a little Florida college where he had written all the same prophecies and got published things about them that David Koresh would later say were his. What worried me when I talked to surviving Branch Davidians and they all still felt connected to David Koresh, every one of them. They might deplore one or two things he did, particularly involving 10 and 12 year old girls. But in general, they felt that he had loved his followers. He believed what he was saying and they believed him. And so I made a deal with the archivists at Florida Gulf Coast University, which is, by the way, where all those Teague documents are. And anybody watching this program who wants to know more about Cyrus teed, you can read for yourself how he was Koresh before David Koresh with the exact same prophecies.

[Left Podcast Host 2]

That's fascinating.

[Left Podcast Host 1]

Even the same name. Cyrus, you know, to Koresh.

[Jeff Guinn]

Yeah.

[Left Podcast Host 1]

It's incredible.

[Jeff Guinn]

The thing I was worried about when I'm talking to these folks, Paul fada, Kathy schroeder, you know, all of them, I knew at some point I would have to tell them about Cyrus teed. And if they believe what I'm telling them, that this then this takes away the belief system they've had sustaining themselves all these years. They believe that everything they've gone through, and they've all gone through a lot, was something righteous, that David Koresh really is the lamb. He's coming back just like revelation said. And this is how they've withstood all these years afterward. So what I tried to do was I first went to interview them and I didn't mention teed yet until would really establish sort of a relationship where that had a chance to give their side of things. And I know felt confident that I would put what they said in the book the way they said it. And then I got back in touch with everybody because I wanted to know them, to know in advance. I didn't want them to read the book afterward. And, hey, Jeff Gwynn never told us that he thinks he proved David wasn't a real prophet. And there was this teed guy. And so I would contact them and say, look, I found this out. I would not put it in the book if, you know, it wasn't something that could be verified. And I wanted you to know in advance. I told them about Cyrus Teague and I made a deal with the archivists at Florida gulf coast university that if any former Branch Davidian contacted them to see whether these teed materials were real, that I would pay to have copies made of everything and sent to that Branch Davidian so they could see for themselves. But I got the same response every time. Well, you may believe that, but we know better because we knew David. We don't have to see anything. It wouldn't matter what you showed us. Wow. We would know better. They weren't impolite. They weren't threatening.

[Left Podcast Host 2]

Damn.

[Jeff Guinn]

And in a way, can you blame them? This is what they staked their lives on. They lost, lost spouses, friends. Some of them lost children. And all these years later, I couldn't expect they're going to say, well, thank you for proving we were absolutely wrong.

[Left Podcast Host 1]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Left Podcast Host 2]

We've come across that with Scientology, too, where there's a lot of people after the fact that believe that the core teachings of Scientology were just sort of manipulated by David Miscavige after the fact that L. Ron Hubbard was a pure being and there was stuff to learn from him. But you're like. You start to realize, like, no, as soon as you look at his storyline, it all falls apart. So you're. You have spent hundreds of thousands of dollars, you've given up your family, you're living in Clearwater, and you, you know, like, your whole life's over, and what do you do then? I. You know, I guess that's what they. I guess it's that. That's the sunken cost fallacy, or the term.

[Jeff Guinn]

Well, the thing is, as hard as it is, we've got to always remember people's motivation, why they do the things they did. And because the FBI and because ATF never bothered ahead of time to find out what KSH taught or what the Branch Davidians believed, that was a big part of the tragedy that follows. I mean, if you read. And there's so many thousands of pages of the negotiation tapes, and I read every page. I mean, you have to. And over and over, Koresh or Steve Schneider or some of the other Branch Davidians would be trying to explain in a very long, complicated way to the FBI. But this is what we believe. This is why we're doing this. And the FBI simply said, it's all Bible babble. That's what they decided. So they never knew why the Branch Davidians thought they would be honored to die at the hands of Babylon if they'd understood that. And talking to ATF people now, they agree with me. If they'd known that, never would have done that kind of entry. They just would have surrounded the place and said, hey, you know, come on out and talk when you feel like it. None of this had to happen. It wasn't entirely ATF's fault. It was entirely FBI's fault. It wasn't even entirely the Branch David's fault. But none of them thought it was necessary to understand the other side. And whenever we get that situation, tragedy is certain.

[Left Podcast Host 1]

And that's. I mean, that's one of the things about this entire story, is that to me, it just. It does seem like a tragic comedy of errors, just over and over again. Just one, like, just things just keep popping up.

[Jeff Guinn]

And that makes me so God damn mad and frustrated.

[Left Podcast Host 1]

Yeah.

[Jeff Guinn]

And it's true, not just in this book, but pretty much all the ones that deal with tragedy. People don't want to understand the other side. And as communication and the means of communication continue to increase in our culture, it's not bringing anybody together. It's dividing us further. For God's sake, look at America now. And yet there's an article in the New York Times a couple years ago. This is a fact. And again, don't take my word for it, guys.

[Left Podcast Host 2]

No, we won't.

[Jeff Guinn]

It's true.

[Left Podcast Host 3]

Good.

[Jeff Guinn]

I'm glad the New York Times published a story about certain evangelistic Christian leaders who are beginning to think that Donald Trump is the reincarnation of King Cyrus. Yep. Of the Old Testament. And that he is the ordained one by God and to lead us.

[Left Podcast Host 2]

No, it's Guy Fieri. If it was anybody who was Guy Fieri, that's where they were wrong. Because Guy Fieri's joining everyone across the country in a love of thick stick and like, meals.

[Jeff Guinn]

But see, here's the, this is the thing. You guys can have your show and bring people on to talk. People like me can write books and try to say, look, these are the facts. Decide for yourselves. But you're always going to have those people who have what I think we need to call deliberate ignorance. Let's not let the facts get in the way of what I believe. And particularly the group that says, God puts in my heart what is right.

[Left Podcast Host 1]

Yeah.

[Jeff Guinn]

You know, leave your facts out of it. But that also goes for in Waco, ATF and FBI saying, you know, all these people, they're just idiots. Obviously we don't need to understand what they think. So it cuts both ways.

[Left Podcast Host 1]

Yeah. And, you know, and concerning, you know, what the ATF's motivations were, do you believe that they, you know, because there was, of course, the 60 Minute story that was about to come out right before that in which there was going to be a, you know, allegations of like sexual abuse and sexual harassment within the atf. And there was also the rumor that Bill Clinton was about to fold the ATF into the FBI and the ATF kind of needed to make a big splash. Like, do you think that that was the ATF main motivation for doing what they did?

[Jeff Guinn]

Don't forget Ruby Ridge. And Ruby Ridge, of course, of 1992, when ATF and FBI combined supposedly to get a dangerous white nationalist and ended up killing his wife and one of his sons. And it was a horrible thing and gave the public the impression that these are two agencies of the government that will just go out there and start shooting People, ATF clearly saw Waco as an opportunity. We can do this so well all by ourselves. And they've got their budgetary hearings coming up in a couple months after that, when they got to go before Congress and convince them, don't take our money away, you know, don't fold us into the FBI. And that's part of it. And of course, it's not something that puts them in a very good light. This is an opportunity. But it is also true that the Branch Davidians were breaking a very serious gun law by converting semiautomatic weapons to. To automatic illegally. And that they were even among themselves, talking about using the weapons themselves in their battle against Babylon. And people had to die in order for David's prophecies to come true. So ATF has always been a great punching bag. Sure. I mean, the NRA has basically made its reputation and millions for years ragging on atf. But it's also true that. How are they ever going to be popular? Any of you ever read a novel by a great writer named T. Jefferson Parker?

[Left Podcast Host 1]

No.

[Left Podcast Host 2]

No.

[Jeff Guinn]

No, you haven't remember his name. He writes some great. What people would call mystery books, but he has a hero in one of them who's actually an ATF agent. This guy, you know, Charlie Hood, member of the atf. And Charlie realizes Americans hate ATF because ATF enforces rules involving alcohol, tobacco and firearms. And almost all Americans like and or love, even at least one among alcohol, tobacco and firearms. So, yeah, ATF screwed up, and I think that's in the book, and there's no denying it. But the FBI screwed up, and by God, the Branch Davidian agenda, which was violent and meant people were going to have to die for them to achieve what they wanted. If the Branch Davidians hadn't done the things they did and left all the clues out there that they did, ATF never would have gotten involved.

[Left Podcast Host 1]

Well, the Branch Davidians, like I remember reading in your book where you talk, you said that David Koresh at one point said, 1995 is going to be a big year. Like something's going to happen in 1995. Do you think that David Koresh, like, either consciously or subconsciously set up the conditions for something like this to happen? Like, did he get. In other words, did he get what he wanted?

[Jeff Guinn]

Okay, let's. Let's talk about the one thing demagogues slash prophets all have in common. Okay.

[Left Podcast Host 2]

Okay.

[Jeff Guinn]

When you're a prophet, when you're saying, I, you know, have the powers beyond human ability, and this is going to Happen at some point. Well, it better happen because prophets have to deliver. People are only going to follow them for a certain amount of time. Charlie Manson decided he better get this Helter Skelter deal going because he'd been promising his followers and if it didn't happen, they were going to start to walk away. Jim Jones had to have his followers believing that the government was out to get them, just like Jones had said would happen someday. You got to leave the comforts of America and come to the jungle. In Guyana, David Koresh is keeping people in an absolute hellhole. All the surviving Branch Davidians talk about how Mount Carmel was a cruddy, huge shack on top of a barren hill that's infested with fire ants. They ate crappy food. They had to get up the crack of dawn, listen to David Koresh preach. All the women had to submit sexually to Koresh. All the men had to give up their wives. And all the time Koresh is saying, we're doing this because that's what God wants. And within a couple years, finally, the apocalypse is going to come, the second coming, and we're going to be the ones who are exalted. Now, how many years are they going to sit around and have David say, any time now.

[Left Podcast Host 2]

Yeah, when's the exaltation coming? Yeah, yeah. Looking for that.

[Jeff Guinn]

So in 1992, he starts talking about, well, we can't exactly know the time, but I'm getting the, the sense that it might be around 1995. Three years is a while, right?

[Left Podcast Host 2]

Yeah, it's a good. It's a long time to maybe build up. You could kick that can maybe you could figure out.

[Jeff Guinn]

I have to think based on what I've learned about Prophet SL demagogues and, you know, I've spent quite a few years of my life doing in depth stuff on this. I'm, you know.

[Left Podcast Host 2]

Yes.

[Left Podcast Host 1]

Yeah.

[Jeff Guinn]

If the ATF doesn't come after David Kesh and Child Protective services already started an investigation about children being mistreated, possibly and so forth. The FBI has already had complaints about people being held against their will. If it hadn't been the ATF in their investigation, something would have popped. And if it hadn't happened from an outside source, David Koresh, who I do think truly believed what he was spouting, then Koresh one morning would have waked up and decided God has put it in his heart that the lamb and his followers have to take it to the Babylonians. And that would have happened. Fly from your grave.

[Left Podcast Host 1]

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[Left Podcast Host 2]

I do want to ask because we've had this question. Maybe I'll get it from your head how far like we we talk about cults. My favorite about a cult leader like a leader specifically maybe not even just a prophet but like a cult leader they kind of have to keep one foot in the con game and kind maybe one foot half outside the con game because you're you're kind of dealing with the logistics are running your cult I think is is difficult. What point do you think that Jim Jones was a true believer in his own work and do you think that he ever like do you think that he had any cracks in that that he thought that what he was doing was not real or if if that's why the where the drugs came in. Like do you think that helps prop up somebody's. I mean I know helps my confidence. Drugs are so I don't know if Jim was like it was just like that for him.

[Jeff Guinn]

Any demagogue usually will use some fragment of truth and build it into something much greater. Now Jim Jones had this in common with Charlie Manson, with David Koresh and with certain political leader we Might name. But. But won't they all have the same thing? The first thing they do is declare there is this awful problem and I am the only one who can solve it. You have to follow me because nobody else can possibly do it. And Joan said that as Manson did, as Koresh did. The second thing they have to do is separate their followers from people who are going to say something different. That the only voice the followers can hear is their own. For Manson, it was the Spahn Ranch. For David Koresh, it's Mount Carmel. For Jim Jones, it ends up being a compound in the Guyanese jungle. And guys, I have cut my way in there with a machete. And that is serious jungle, believe me.

[Left Podcast Host 2]

Yo. No, that is. I don't know how these, like these literally just church people just went.

[Jeff Guinn]

Made a town, but then comes the next thing that they do. And Jim Jones did these things just like the other two. You begin by declaring the media to be your enemy, that you can't read newspapers, you don't want to watch TV because it's all lies. I'm the only one telling you the truth. And then he. You separate the followers from their outside families who might be skeptical. You know, they're. You're either part of us or you're part of them.

[Left Podcast Host 1]

Yeah.

[Jeff Guinn]

So you isolate the people and then you have a deadline of some sort. This terrible thing is going to happen soon. And the requests, Jones's requests or Manson or Koresh's get weirder and weirder.

[Left Podcast Host 2]

Yeah.

[Jeff Guinn]

More bizarre.

[Left Podcast Host 1]

And that's what we talk when we talk about cults. So much is like, you can always tell when a cult leader is slipping is when. That's when they up the. The ante. The cult leader always. They have to keep up in the Annie. And sometimes the cult will up the ante for them.

[Jeff Guinn]

But there always is this escalation. Right?

[Left Podcast Host 1]

Yeah.

[Jeff Guinn]

Now, demagogues are part of everyday life in America and everywhere else. Every politician is at least in part a demagogue. Here are these horrible things that are happening, and it's going to get worse unless you elect me, unless you vote for me. The opposition is ruining everything. I'm going to save you, but I need your vote now. In churches, religious leaders, to a certain extent, have to be demagogues. I'm the one who's telling you exactly what God wants and the things you've got to do. Unless you want to go to hell. I mean, your soul's in jeopardy. But I'm here for you. But the. Then the Joneses ratchet it up and more and more and more, and nothing is ever going to be enough. And yet I heard one story about Jim Jones had stopped me dead in my tracks as I started thinking, by the time he gets to California, he's in Ukiah and the drugs are starting.

[Left Podcast Host 2]

Yeah.

[Jeff Guinn]

And he's getting weirder and weirder.

[Left Podcast Host 2]

Yeah.

[Jeff Guinn]

Was. Is this the moment when Jim Jones really checked out in terms of. I believe we're making this a better world and trying to make the world a more equitable place because he did amazing things in Indianapolis, which people tend to forget. If you've read Road to Jonestown, you'll notice that I have talked a lot to a guy named Tim Carter.

[Left Podcast Host 1]

Yeah.

[Jeff Guinn]

A Vietnam veteran who came, joined the temple and in Jonestown, saw his wife and toddler son die in front of him from ingesting the flavor aid and would have died there himself, but Jones gave him a task of getting some money out and trying to get it to the capital city. And I sat with Tim Carter in his apartment in the Northwest for a week while he told his story. And he would break down sobbing or he would start raging at himself. How did I believe this? And Gloria, my wife, died, you know, my little boy, you know, why did I do it? Why did I do it? And I was. You know, it was intense.

[Left Podcast Host 2]

Yeah.

[Jeff Guinn]

Yeah. And it was a week, and I started. You know, you can stay objective in what you research and write, but you have some personal feelings, of course. And then he said, but all of a sudden, he just stops. He said, but there was this one weird thing in San Francisco, People's Temple. The big building, the church that they built there.

[Left Podcast Host 1]

Yeah.

[Jeff Guinn]

A big. Above the auditorium, there were some apartments where older members would live, kind of, you know, protected space for them. And these were really elderly folks, most of them poor black people who, you know, had been living in complete squalor. And being part of the temple meant they were respected. They had a clean place to. And what Jones would do is his. His sermons would last for hours, hours and hours. And he had a little bucket he'd relieve himself in behind his pulpit now and then, but. Yeah, I know. But every once in a while, he'd let the choir take over and do a couple numbers, and he would kind of slip backstage, you know, take a deep breath, whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course.

[Left Podcast Host 2]

Get his oxygen.

[Jeff Guinn]

And. And during one of these performances was backstage doing something or other, and Jim Jones ducks back behind the curtains for a minute, and Carter's watching Jim Jones and just thinking, you know, what what's he going to do, you know, is he going to sneak a cigarette, have a drink? And instead behind the stage there was this little staircase, you know, that led up to the apartments. And a much older lady who is a member of People's Temple apparently been out shopping and she's got a couple of heavy bags and she's starting up this staircase. Carter sees it. He doesn't see anything. But Jim Jones sees her and he rushes over and takes the bags from her and carries them upstairs and opens the apartment door and gets her settled before he comes down. And he didn't have to do that. Nobody's watching somewhere at some level. And that's what makes Jim Jones such a contradiction. Yeah. For all the horrible things he did. And they were horrible and unforgivable. Every once in a while there'd be this little glistening moment when where there's no benefit to himself and he thinks no one's watching. He does something for someone, one of his followers.

[Left Podcast Host 2]

So fascinating.

[Jeff Guinn]

And you have to factor that in too.

[Left Podcast Host 1]

I mean, do you think that's. There's something in all three of these men? All three of these, like big cult leaders? Like, is it. There was a quote, There was a.

[Left Podcast Host 2]

Two out of three.

[Left Podcast Host 1]

Not Madsen, of course.

[Left Podcast Host 2]

Yeah. Manson.

[Jeff Guinn]

Yeah.

[Left Podcast Host 2]

He was more of. We called him boutique cult.

[Left Podcast Host 1]

That's what he had.

[Left Podcast Host 2]

Lower seat.

[Left Podcast Host 1]

But there was this, this quote from the book. I think it was Kathy Schroeder. Is it Schroeder or Kathy Schrader? Schroeder. She said David was an asshole. He was arrogant, but he was not manipulative. Like, how much truth do you think is in that statement? And how does that sort of relate, I guess back to Jim Jones and what you just told us?

[Jeff Guinn]

I think David Koresh plagiarized Cyrus T. But I don't think he knew he was doing it. He was nurtured by the previous leader of the Branch Davidians, Lois Roden. And we know and it's documented that Lois cribbed from Cyrus Teed years before she even met Vernon Wayne Howe, who would become David Koresh. Lois is dying of breast cancer. She believes in the mission of the Branch Davidians. And her crazy son George looks like he's going to take over. And Lois is praying that some, some savior will emerge. And here it's 21 year old Vernon Wayne Howe who are right in the book by secular standards, wasn't qualified to lead a one man parade. Now out of nowhere, this guy Vernon suddenly returns from Israel claiming that he has been Given these great visions, he's faresh the reincarnation of Cyrus. He's a lamb from the book of Revelation. He's going to lead his followers in the final battle against Babylon and they'll be exalted for it. Which is the exact same thing Cyrus Teed had been saying. But if he believes that, and you've got to remember he has believed from the time he's a kid that God is there with him, that God finally communicates with him every once in a while. All you guys, if you know, you get out much and you have friends who are part of a fundamentalist church and if you haven't, maybe you should just to hear the other side of things. You're going to see people who truly honestly believe. And if you put them on a lie detector test, it would say it was true, that God has told them this or that they've had this vision and angels appeared. They believe it. So Koresh was an. Kathy's right. I've listened to tapes, you know, he was the lamb. Everybody else was beneath him. If he wanted sex with your wife, well, the Bible said you have to honor the lamb. He gets sex. Nobody else can smoke, but the Bible said smoke emerged from God's nostrils. He gets to smoke all these different things. And yet, and yet every time they challenge him and they do, he finds something in the Bible and presents it to them in such a way that they decide they can't argue with him. It has to be right. And if you think they're ignorant. In this book I consulted three of the most esteemed biblical scholars in the country. Catherine Wessinger, James Tabor and J. Philip Arnold. The last two actually got involved in the siege after a while. Every one of them. And these are people who have studied the Bible their whole lives, have written extensively on it. If one of the big TV networks is doing a special on religion, they'll be the ones called in to explain it. They say David Koresh stunned them. He saw things in the Bible it missed completely. So was he delusional? Yep. Was he a demagogue? Yep. Was he an idiot savant? Absolutely not. For whatever reason he had that down cold. And that is what mad. Remember all his followers pretty much came from the Seventh Day Adventist Church where the belief is that God sends human messengers from time to time. They have been imbued with this from childhood. And out of all the people they have heard, they think David Koresh fits it. They're, they're not like those drug addled kids with Manson. They're not even like the people in people's temple who didn't really care about God one way or the other, but were committed to social change. These are people who've spent their whole lives trying to understand the Bible and in their minds learn what God wants them to do. And here's the man who can do it. So yeah, he's an but he never ever tries to trick them. He always uses the Bible and will talk with them, talk it out until finally they see his side. But he wasn't like Manson saying, well if you don't understand me, that's because you're not sophisticated and advanced enough to do it. It's your ignorance.

[Left Podcast Host 2]

Do you think it helps that you're already born into that? I was reading, I've been following the Chad Daybell Lori Valo case. I think it's fascinating. But what they say to each other is ludicrous. Like talking about death percentages like he is a the way we now know Mormonism works is that it helps franchisees, like little profit franchisees to create their own little religions. And I guess that if you have a base that you believe that all this is actually to the letter real, it's much easier to jump off of that material.

[Jeff Guinn]

Everybody who followed David Koresh was predisposed to believe and he did not so much play to that as focus on that. And because he did, because he lived pretty much what he preached and because the Bible said you had to give honor to the lamb and that the one of the messiahs was going to be a sinful messiah and Koresh told everybody, I'm not perfect. I don't have any other powers. I can't turn water into wine. I can't raise the dead. All I can do is open the seven seals, bring about the end of days and lead you to the glory of God. And we're all going to get swept up in the wave sheath and we're going to be the exalted in the new thousand year kingdom. And these were people who through their background, through their own seeking and beliefs, it fit so fascinating.

[Left Podcast Host 1]

The last question that I have for you and it does fit into I guess belief. The fire, how the fire started. In the book you present four different theories as far as how the fire started. The Branch Davidian started, the ATF started it. But you this fourth more theological theory that I found fascinating. Could you talk about that for a little bit?

[Jeff Guinn]

Sure. Waco, you know the subtitle of the book is Legacy of Rage and I write in the book about how so much of what's dividing us today grew out of Waco, from Timothy McVeigh two years to the day blowing up the federal building in Oklahoma City, to the people who stormed the Capitol, their different groups on, you know, in 2021, January. Their leaders originally got into the militia movement because of Waco. And a big part of that, a big part of the visceral, angry reaction to Waco from a lot of people is that the government just decided to kill off some gun owning Christians who hadn't gone out to bother anybody. And just like the gentleman from Tennessee, they don't need to read anything that would tell them differently. They just know. So when we look at Waco, if everything had ended peacefully, would we be talking about it today? No. But it didn't. And how it ended, there are only a couple possibilities. The first is that the FBI that last day just decided they're going to burn all these people up, get rid of them. Well, that's easy for a lot of people to accept because it fits what they want, but it's absolutely ludicrous for the FBI as well as atf, particularly after Ruby Ridge only a few months before. The best way for this to end would be peacefully, absolutely no bloodshed. And the FBI did so many stupid things. I mean we could kill a whole day just talking about those. And I should use the word kill, it's in poor taste. But the main thing is no, they didn't do it because they would have had no reason to do it. The second thing is, was complete accident. Maybe you got tanks smashing into this rickety house, have imparted the roof in, electricity's off, they've got Coleman lanterns for warmth and life. A lantern gets knocked over, the places of fire trap bush, up it goes. And that's certainly possible. Third possibility, the Branch Davidians themselves decided they were going to as a group, die and translate up because that fit what they believed. They're setting the fire, but they don't think of it as suicide, the end of their lives, but freeing them to go up and do the next thing. And so those were the three possibles that I thought things were limited to until I'm doing the research. And I've spent so much time with those biblical scholars I told you about. One of them, Phil Arnold is an absolute genius and he, before I started looking at Cyrus Teague had been trying to track it down. And if I succeed in the book, it's because he's the guy that showed the way and I just kind of jumped in at the end and found some things. Phil Arnold said that he thinks there was something that was never considered. David Koresh, right up to the end, believes he is the lamb. He is the chosen of God. In the days coming up to this final end, he's writing about the seventh seals. He's doing what the lamb is supposed to do, revealing these things. And as soon as it's all written, he'll get that passed out, and then he and his followers will come out. The FBI don't believe that. If we look at the passages in the Bible that were favorites of Koreshan and they're noted in the book, it's how God promises that he will save Jerusalem with a wall of fire where the believers will not be touched, or that God says he will protect his followers with fireworks and fire, and they will walk through unhurt. Now, if you're David Koresh and you believe you're the lamb and you're really in this spiritual mood and you're surrounded. Right. One way or another, this is about to be over.

[Left Podcast Host 1]

Yeah. Babylon's here.

[Jeff Guinn]

Yeah. Right. This is it. For better or worse. Well, what's the best way you got? You know, you're on tv, you know, everybody in America is watching. What if there's a fire? But it's a holy fire, and God uses this wall of flames to protect them from the agents of Babylon.

[Left Podcast Host 2]

That's fascinating.

[Jeff Guinn]

Yes. But you see, they would believe that could happen. Yeah.

[Left Podcast Host 2]

And they wouldn't be hurt, that the fire would go and they'd, like, walk out and be like, see, it's all real.

[Jeff Guinn]

Right. Absolutely. What you got to lose. Think about it.

[Left Podcast Host 1]

My God. I mean, I. When you put it that way, that almost seems like the most plausible thing.

[Left Podcast Host 2]

That's very interesting.

[Left Podcast Host 1]

That or an accident. You know, is it, like, seem like the two most plausible things I note in the book.

[Jeff Guinn]

If you look in the chapter notes, after three and a half years of working on this, 24 7, after talking to hundreds of people, having read countless thousands of documents, and even reading the Bible, the King James version that Koresh used to read it through four times, I truly believe that at the la. Just personally, at the last minute, Koresh thought it was going to be holy fire, and he was going. God was going to prove in this way that David Koresh was right and everybody else was wrong.

[Left Podcast Host 2]

That's fascinating. Wow, that's really interesting. And I guess I'll just add, like, you know, you don't have to answer this, but you could decide if you want to mull this over. Do. What do you do with the critics who say that you got into writing nonfiction for the money and the sex?

[Jeff Guinn]

Well, I would say one out of two ain't bad. You know, when I wrote a book called the Last Gunfight about the OK Corral and the gunfight that wasn't a gunfight and didn't happen in the OK Corral.

[Left Podcast Host 2]

Yeah. That's just sad. Yeah, it's boring, right? Because it's sad because he didn't happen.

[Jeff Guinn]

Well, I didn't get a real great response from, you know, a lot of Wild west historians. And you know, some of them are pretty sharp in, in their criticism, which is okay. I mean, talk about belief systems again. Yeah. One of the reasons I write these books is I write books about something I don't have a belief system about. But there are people who've devoted, you know, their. Maybe they work at Walmart during the week, but at night and on the weekends they're researching Tombstone and the OK Corral for the great book they're going to write someday.

[Left Podcast Host 1]

Oh, no. The Wild west is American mythology.

[Jeff Guinn]

Right. Well, here comes this interloper, right? This outsider, this guy who never has written about cowboy history before and he's trying to say Wyatt Earp wasn't a hero and it wasn't a real gunfight, you know, and all this stuff. And they pissed him off. So I risked my life. There's a group called the Wild West History association. And these are nice folks who are devoted to that history and at their conventions they like to dress up, you know, saloon girl costumes and little cowboy stuff and everything. And they're all working on, you know, self published books. And I was asked to come in and talk to them about trying to write for a larger audience. And I had the feeling this would not end well. And I was right. These are, these are lovely people, okay, Gathered in a little, in a little New Mexico auditorium. And they're nice folks. They're the kind, if they pass you, you know, and your car's got a flat in the side of the road, they're going to stop and want to help. You know, they're nice people. And I got introduced and you could feel the hatred. And I, I started to talk about how history only is made better by sharing it with people that a lot of us, when we write history make the mistake of just writing for ourselves and 10 of our friends.

[Left Podcast Host 2]

Yeah.

[Jeff Guinn]

And there was grumbling and you know, you know, I didn't see any flaming torches lit yet, but the possibility was there and so I just said, look, it's obvious that if I talk, I'm not going to say anything you want to hear, so let's talk with each other. You know, what do you want to ask me? What do you want to say? And a guy stood up and said, do you deny that you write your books for personal financial reasons? And my answer was this. I. What I do for a living, I love. What I would always want to do is pick some subject I want to know about and travel and spend years finding out and write about it. And I make enough money from my books that I get to do that. There probably are not 200 writers in America who just make enough money from their books that they don't need a day job or some other form of getting income. And I've been extremely lucky. I'm not a great writer, but I'm a lucky one. And I have been able to spend the last 20 years doing nothing but picking subjects I want to know more about and going out and finding what there is to find. I said, so, yes, I don't apologize for it. And wouldn't you do the same thing if you could? And he muttered, you.

[Left Podcast Host 2]

And that was technically, you're darn tootin. And I hate to admit it.

[Jeff Guinn]

I waved. I said, well, take care, everybody. Get home safely. And I got the heck out of there.

[Left Podcast Host 2]

Yeah, yeah. They run you out of town. What a great conversation. Thank you so much, sir.

[Left Podcast Host 1]

Thank you so much, mister. We appreciate you so much.

[Capella University Announcer]

You're amaz.

[Left Podcast Host 1]

Everything about you.

[Jeff Guinn]

Look, thank you for reading my books. Thank you for letting other people know about my books. I owe you guys. Take care, and I hope I keep writing things you enjoy.

[Left Podcast Host 2]

Oh, yes, We. We will continue to use all of your imaginations.

[Jeff Guinn]

Same to you, buddy.

[Left Podcast Host 2]

I hope you Gwyniacs are satisfied because you just got pure, unadulterated, mainline Jeff Gwynn. Can you handle it uncut?

[Left Podcast Host 3]

I can't tell if I feel smarter or dumber.

[Jeff Guinn]

We're dumber.

[Left Podcast Host 2]

We are stupider than that man.

[Left Podcast Host 1]

Well, it's like, yes, you may have been proved. You have been made smarter, but we have all been proved dumber.

[Left Podcast Host 2]

Yeah, he's a thinker.

[Jeff Guinn]

Yeah.

[Left Podcast Host 1]

No, he's incredible. So it's.

[Jeff Guinn]

He.

[Left Podcast Host 1]

He talks with the same amount of engagement that he. He writes with I founding.

[Left Podcast Host 2]

I was hanging on every word.

[Left Podcast Host 1]

Every single word.

[Left Podcast Host 2]

I did fantastic stories. He did a lot of work.

[Left Podcast Host 1]

My God.

[Left Podcast Host 3]

Patience. That man has lots of patience.

[Left Podcast Host 2]

I will say nothing as thoroughly as the author of the book speaking with the sasquatch. Who told him about the actual nature of the Sasquatch. Through various meditative conversations with the Sasquatch, Ashley projected to him. I like I understand what that guy's saying more, but Jeff's pretty good.

[Left Podcast Host 1]

Jeff's incredible. This has been Last Update on the left everyone. Thank you so much for listening. Go to patreon.com lastpodcast on the left to watch full videos of our episodes. Check out all of our streams at Twitch TV LPNTV and watch everything after the fact on YouTube. And don't forget to go check out all our shows, all the places we're going to be playing playing this year. Go to LastPodcast on the left.com to check out all of our North American, Australian and European dates. Thank you so much for listening everybody.

[Jeff Guinn]

Helgeen hey Satan.

[Left Podcast Host 2]

Hell Gwyn hello.

[Left Podcast Host 1]

Yeah, Always.

[Jeff Guinn]

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[Capella University Announcer]

At Capella University, we believe accessible education can make a difference. That's why we offer scholarship opportunities to all eligible students. Un futuro differente estamma serca de loques con Capella University. Learn more at Capella. Eduardo.