Sovereign: An Interview with Christian Swegal

Summary

Last Podcast on the Left - Episode: Sovereign: An Interview with Christian Swagle Release Date: August 11, 2025
Host/Author: The Last Podcast Network
Description: Delving deep into the shadows of societal fringes, The Last Podcast on the Left explores the intricate world of sovereign citizens through an insightful conversation with filmmaker Ryan Reynolds.

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Introduction to the Episode

In this episode titled "Sovereign: An Interview with Christian Swagle," the hosts of The Last Podcast on the Left engage in a profound discussion with Ryan Reynolds, the writer and director of the independent film Sovereign. The episode transcends typical horror narratives, venturing into the psychological and societal underpinnings of the sovereign citizen movement, a group often misunderstood and misrepresented in mainstream discourse.

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Exploring the Sovereign Citizen Movement

Christian Swagle initiates the conversation by expressing his long-standing interest in the sovereign citizen movement, describing it as "the tumultuous waters of the philosophical world of the sovereign citizen" (01:15). He emphasizes his ironic empathy towards them, comparing it only below his feelings for Scientology, primarily due to the latter's "uniforms" (01:42).

Ryan Reynolds expands on his fascination, noting, "I've always been interested in fringe ideologies, conspiracy theories, and how people get involved in those things" (03:43). He shares a personal connection, mentioning someone close to him who adopted a sovereign citizen ideology as part of a mental health struggle, which propelled his deeper research into the movement.

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The Making of Sovereign - A Deep Dive

The discussion transitions to Ryan's film, Sovereign, a narrative centered around Jerry Kane, portrayed by Nick Offerman, and his son who commit the murder of two police officers. The film aims to provide an empathetic yet critical look into the lives of those entrenched in the sovereign citizen ideology.

Ed, one of the hosts, remarks on the film's accuracy, stating, "It seems like it's incredibly accurate" (13:11). Ryan Reynolds concurs, highlighting their commitment to objectivity: "We tried to be as objective about it as possible without editorializing too much" (13:23). He discusses the challenges of portraying the son's story accurately, given limited information, and the artistic license taken to flesh out the father-son dynamic for a more compelling narrative.

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Understanding the Psychology Behind the Movement

A significant portion of the conversation delves into the psychological factors that drive individuals toward the sovereign citizen movement. Ryan Reynolds asserts, "I think mental health is a real component to some of it" (06:27), suggesting that underlying mental health issues, coupled with feelings of powerlessness and economic struggles, create a fertile ground for such ideologies to take root.

He elaborates on how systemic failures, like the 2008 financial crisis and inadequate responses to personal crises, leave individuals vulnerable to extremist ideologies that promise empowerment and agency. This vacuum is where figures like Jerry Kane emerge, offering "an empowering message" to those in distress (06:40).

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Challenges in Depicting Sovereign Citizens in Media

The hosts express concerns about the potential glorification of the movement through media portrayals. Christian Swagle wonders, "Are you worried that some people are gonna see this movie and think Jerry's a hero?" (12:33). Ryan Reynolds acknowledges this risk but believes that presenting an honest and nuanced portrayal is crucial for understanding and preventing future extremism: "Taking an honest look at it, even if it's difficult or complicated, is a step towards trying to understand it and maybe prevent it in the future" (12:54).

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Reception and Impact of Sovereign

The conversation touches on the film's reception and its impact on audiences and those within the sovereign citizen movement. Ryan Reynolds shares an anecdote about a sovereign citizen who attended a screening and critiqued the film's portrayal of legal strategies, highlighting the ongoing engagement and debates sparked by the film (11:46).

Ed praises the film's accuracy and urges listeners to support independent filmmaking: "Please go watch this film. Go rent this movie" (40:23). The hosts discuss the importance of independent films in shedding light on overlooked and controversial topics, emphasizing the need for such narratives in today's complex societal landscape.

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Filmmaking Process and Collaborations

Ryan delves into the collaborative nature of creating Sovereign, highlighting the invaluable support from his talented cast, including Nick Offerman and Jacob Tremblay. He recounts how Nick's warmth and comedic instincts added depth to the character portrayals, even amidst intense filming sessions: "Nick is an incredible artist. He's the best person to work with. I hit the lottery on my cast in this film" (23:35).

The discussion also covers the logistical challenges faced during filming in Arkansas, from unpredictable weather to the relentless dedication of the crew, which ultimately contributed to the film's authentic and gritty atmosphere.

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Societal Reflections and Future Implications

The episode concludes with a reflection on the broader societal implications of the sovereign citizen movement and similar extremist ideologies. Christian Swagle draws parallels between sovereign citizens and other groups like QAnon, emphasizing the collective search for identity and meaning: "It's about community... it's about feeling empowered and important" (05:12).

Ryan Reynolds echoes this sentiment, noting that while many of the movement's beliefs are flawed, the underlying desire for empowerment and community is a powerful force: "These guys have that courage thing. It's an empowering thing... it's an attractive message" (27:01).

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Conclusion

The Last Podcast on the Left offers a compelling and nuanced exploration of the sovereign citizen movement through the lens of Ryan Reynolds' film Sovereign. By intertwining personal narratives, psychological insights, and the filmmaking process, the episode provides listeners with a comprehensive understanding of a complex and often misunderstood phenomenon. The hosts' encouragement to support independent films underscores the importance of diverse storytelling in tackling challenging societal issues.

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Notable Quotes

• Christian Swagle: "We're all listening to last podcast and left knows this is a pet subject of mine." (01:15)

• Ryan Reynolds: "It's something that needs to be addressed. I think there's inequality and inequity..." (25:37)

• Ed: "Now in our industries, like, crippling around us. It is the time for independent film and it really needs to be nurtured now more than ever." (41:00)

• Christian Swagle: "You have to make about MLMs, what do you. After this, it's like, do you leave all this behind?" (35:19)

• Ryan Reynolds: "There's so much to talk about if you're a filmmaker. There's no shortage of material to dig into." (35:01)

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Timestamp References

<a id="timestamp-0115"></a>01:15
<a id="timestamp-0142"></a>01:42
<a id="timestamp-0343"></a>03:43
<a id="timestamp-1311"></a>13:11
<a id="timestamp-1323"></a>13:23
<a id="timestamp-0627"></a>06:27
<a id="timestamp-0640"></a>06:40
<a id="timestamp-1233"></a>12:33
<a id="timestamp-1254"></a>12:54
<a id="timestamp-1146"></a>11:46
<a id="timestamp-4023"></a>40:23
<a id="timestamp-2335"></a>23:35
<a id="timestamp-0512"></a>05:12
<a id="timestamp-2701"></a>27:01
<a id="timestamp-4100"></a>41:00
<a id="timestamp-3519"></a>35:19
<a id="timestamp-3501"></a>35:01

Transcript

[Amica Insurance Representative]

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[Ryan Reynolds]

Hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. Now, I was looking for fun ways to tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited Premium Wireless for $15 a month is back. So I thought it would be fun if we made $15 bills, but it turns out that's very illegal. So there goes my big idea for the commercial. Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment.

[Amica Insurance Representative]

Of $45 for a 3 month plan.

[Christian Swagle]

Equivalent to $15 per month.

[Amica Insurance Representative]

Required new customer offer for first 3 months only. Speed slow after 35 gigabytes of networks busy.

[Christian Swagle]

Taxes and fees extra. See mintmobile.com Wow. I never thought that we would head back into these stormy waters.

[Ed]

Ed, you love these waters.

[Christian Swagle]

I do, I. And I get used to these waters. I'm used to the temperature of these waters. I'm used to the.

[Ed]

You like, bought a jacuzzi for these waters.

[Christian Swagle]

I like, bought like a condo symbolically to look upon these waters like it's my favorite view of the city. And what we're talking about is the tumultuous waters of the philosophical world of the sovereign citizen. And we all know that they. We're everybody that listens to last podcast and left knows this is a pet subject of mine.

[Ed]

We tell if you love it or hate it.

[Christian Swagle]

I put them below. My ironic embracement of them is below Scientology. Only just because Scientology has uniforms.

[Ed]

Okay.

[Christian Swagle]

That's why that's my thing is that cyber citizens don't get together enough to come up with good, like metal systems or like a learning process. Like, that's what we need. That's what it really needs, is packaging.

[Ed]

I feel like it's almost there.

[Christian Swagle]

Yeah, it's getting there. But we have somebody special today. Is it someone that went into this deeper than me for some reason? Why you would do this? I don't know why you would do this to yourself, except to make a truly wonderful film. We have the director of a new film starring Nick Offerman as a sovereign citizen, which is just like, if you could have, you couldn't have chosen a better one. Like, that's the number one. If it's not him, it's got to be Michael Shannon. But because it's him, that's fucking amazing. We have here the director of this film, Sovereign Christian Swagle. Thank you so much for being here.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Thanks for having me. Yeah.

[Christian Swagle]

Now, you wrote this.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yes.

[Christian Swagle]

And this is your first writing, directing?

[Ryan Reynolds]

It is, yeah. It's my first film as a writer director.

[Ed]

Congratulations.

[Christian Swagle]

Congratulations. Is that miserable?

[Ryan Reynolds]

It was. I mean, it was a. It was a lifelong, you know, it's a dream come true to get to do a movie. It was miserable making the film. I think anything anybody who makes a film knows how hard it is to make a film. But it was the, you know, the best kind of miserable, basically.

[Christian Swagle]

But obviously it can't be more miserable than the inner world of a sovereign citizen.

[Ryan Reynolds]

No, I think you're probably right about that.

[Christian Swagle]

And the one thing that you portrayed in this film which is a very both empathetic look at this whole topic, but it's also, it's a deep dive into the real story of a real sovereign citizen that with his son, murdered two police officers that were then killed by the police themselves. And that was Jerry Kane and Joe Kane. Yeah, correct.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah, that's correct.

[Christian Swagle]

Now, now, how did you. I guess we could start with that.

[Ed]

Yeah, start with it.

[Christian Swagle]

How'd you get involved in all this mishigash?

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah, I mean, I had. I mean, I think like you guys, I've been interested in, you know, I'm interested in fringe ideologies, conspiracy theories and, you know, UFOs or cults, you know, how people get involved in those things. I've always been interested in that. But also I had someone close to me in my personal life who became involved in kind of a sovereign citizen ideology adjacent sort of anti government conspiracy theories. And that was part of a mental health issue. And in really wanting to understand that, I started researching the sovereign citizen movement and came across this crime. And I just felt like because of my personal experience and my interest in the subject matter, and also I felt like the crime speaks to a lot of themes that I think are relevant today. It just felt like a great story to dig into. I felt like the father son relationship at the center of it was really compelling. And I just love the idea of telling a coming of age story of this young kid growing up in an environment like that.

[Christian Swagle]

Well, one of the worst parts about the movie is that you're watching it and the whole time I'm like, wow, he really got to spend a lot of time with his son. That must be kind of nice for him. Like we say here on last podcast on the left all the time. That movements like the QAnon movement and stuff like this is that quite more. More often than not, it's about the friends you make along the way.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah.

[Christian Swagle]

So it's about community. It's about. In a weird purpose. Yeah, it's about community. And this movie really reflects that. Is there like something to learn about a father so desperate almost to spend time with his son?

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah. I mean, I think that even though the ideas that these guys are clinging onto, I think are sort of just factually, you can say that they're pretty off.

[Ed]

Yes.

[Ryan Reynolds]

You know, the answers that they're arriving at are wrong. But I think in a lot of cases, the injury that they've sustained or the reason that they're looking for, for this kind of an answer is really valid. You know, a lot of the sovereign citizens that I've spoken to and known, you know, they. They lost their home after 2008, or they had insurance that didn't pay out that they were actually owed, or they filed their taxes wrong, and then they were hit with a wave of penalties that just had them underwater. And I think in the absence of like a legitimate compassionate response to that, there's this vacuum where a guy like Jerry Kane can step into that and say, hey, I've. I've got the answer. Like, you don't have to pay that, you know, you don't have to, you know, and that's an empowering message, I think, for a lot of people, especially.

[Ed]

People without money or desperate.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah. So I think to kind of laugh at them is like, you know, and then I do think mental health is a real component to some of it. You know, I think like that guy, the QAnon Shaman who was like storming the capitol or whatever. I mean, I think that guy had legitimate.

[Christian Swagle]

But now he's so surprised that Trump is turning on them. He's so shocked and he's so upset. But I feel like that's a, That's a trigger. That's like a. That's almost a function of the sob sit movement. Because it's like that when they then present this series of arcane sort of like fake version of reality.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah.

[Christian Swagle]

To reality. Reality oftentimes smashes their windows and drags them from a non moving car and hog ties them and throws them in the back and then they're getting deloused. And that's only like literally increasing their agitation with the system.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Well, that's the thing is you can't, especially if there is a mental health component. If somebody's in, in that state and you apply more pressure. That doesn't break them out of it. It's not like you can shake them out of it. That just sends them further down into a spiral of some kind. And, and, and so I think, you know, we also, with the film wanted to just look at the reality of that. And, and so we, we really, even though it's a political subject matter and it's kind of a wacky subject in a lot of ways, like, we really wanted to try to look at, like, okay, what's the reality of the people that are drawn to stuff like this and what does this feel like from their perspective?

[Ed]

Well, as a viewer, you kind of put me there because in the very beginning I'm like, this motherfucker's making some points, you know, like, I'm about to go to one of these meetings in a follow the end, you know, and then, and then, you know, as time goes on, you're like, obviously this is wrong. You know, you, like, you're waiting for it to break. But like, you know, how much of these guys that you've met and you've worked with or whatever and you've studied, is it always mental health or is it desperation? Like, like, kind of like, I, you.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Know, I, I have to say most that are like the guru types that are really online and really bought in, I do think in most cases I've seen there's some sort of a mental health issue. I don't know if that tips into, like, mental illness. It could be maybe just a personality, you know, eccentricity. Yeah, but, but I think that, I think that some of the guys that I've met, like, it's almost. This is a weird analogy, but almost like LARPing in a way. Like.

[Christian Swagle]

No, no, we talk about it all the time. QAnon's a LARP that went from the Internet that jumped to real life.

[Ryan Reynolds]

They're like guys that like, just get really into stuff. And it's almost like when you're at a magic the gathering, like, you know, and people are talking about that or any other subculture that somebody gets into, if you start to get a reputation for being the expert at that and you kind of have street cred for that, there's a community and there's self esteem that comes with that. And so I think that's a big component of it as well. But I think what you were saying earlier, like, the, the, the reach for community and feeling empowered and important and like you have some kind of agency is, is I Think the driver of a lot of this stuff. And then I do think mental health.

[Christian Swagle]

Is also part of it because they are giant seem. These seem to be specifically pitted against giant unmovable structures within American society. It's like the irs, the bank system, the literal Constitution of the United States of America. And they're like, it's such a big epic battle. It's a big epic thing that I feel like we, you know. You know, when a housewife discovers methamphetamine at like 45, like it feels like that it's like it's adding this amazing, like Tolkien esque, like, fantasy structure to your life.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think part of it also is like, you see in some of these bigger confrontations that make the news, like the canes or any of the videos, you see where one of them finally goes to the federal building and takes a stand. You know, it never ends well for them. They always. But what I saw in meeting a lot of them is they're kind of working up the courage to test that theory in real life. A lot of times, you know, it's. It's a long path to kind of. That's why Jerry's character in the film and in the research of him, like, cowardice was such a big part of what he was trying to overcome. You know, he talked about his father being a coward and he talked about. You know, and. And so I think the ones that do kind of step forward with this and. And try to test those theories, they see themselves as like being brave in that sense.

[Christian Swagle]

Did you like. All right, so I'll know that when we've ever covered the subject. What I also love about SOV sits is that it's a kaleidoscope of different approaches to the topic. And one thing I do know is that sovereign citizens, a slur in their world. Right.

[Ryan Reynolds]

They don't like it's become that. Yeah.

[Christian Swagle]

Yes. They don't like the term sovereign citizen.

[Ed]

But isn't that what they call themselves?

[Christian Swagle]

No. Now, it's either your. It's a private. There's private nation. Right. The member of a private.

[Ryan Reynolds]

There's like dozens of different terms that I've heard, but. Yeah.

[Christian Swagle]

Have you yet received your. Well, actually pick apart like approach to. From a sovereign citizen. Has someone watched the movie and be like, let me tell you where you got what you got wrong. What you. What you did wrong.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah, it was. It was a little bit sort of freaky. But we had a screening of the film and. And after this screening had a Q and A and then I went home, and a friend of mine sent me a link and was like, oh, there's a picture of you from the Q and A. And there was a sovereign citizen who was first row at the Q and A and said, I went and saw this film. And actually, you know, these guys were wrong because they didn't follow the right program. And here's why. My program's different. And I appreciate that. I mean, you know, it was civil, but he. You know, his take on it was Jerry's. Jerry did not know the correct language, and that's why he was not successful. But there is a program out there that does have the correct language.

[Ed]

Are you worried that some people are gonna see this movie and think Jerry's a hero?

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah, but, you know, I think the thing is that it happened. You know, I'm concerned about that. I'm concerned about how do the families. How are they gonna react to this? You know, how are people gonna inter. That's the complexity of the real world we're living in. It's an event that happened. Unfortunately, the bad things that happened, we can't go back and change those. But I think taking an honest look at it, even if it's difficult or complicated to look at, is a step towards trying to understand it and maybe prevent it in the future.

[Ed]

It seems like it's incredibly accurate.

[Ryan Reynolds]

We tried to be as sort of honest about it in all. All aspects of the approach. We tried to be sort of as objective about it as possible without editorializing too much.

[Ed]

And how are you able to keep the son's story accurate?

[Ryan Reynolds]

That storyline? You know, there's not a. There's not a ton of information online about him because he was a minor. But we do know he was the.

[Christian Swagle]

One that technically killed the police officers.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yes, he was. And, you know, there's. There was a lot of information. There was a lot of information online about Jerry Kane and about this crime specifically. So there were police records, there were the videos online. There were actually some case studies, academic papers that were written about this crime as a case study in extremism, really. But the. The details of their. Their relationship, really, the father, son. That, you know, that's artistic license. It was just trying to put. That was part of it that I felt like, with my experience in my personal life, knowing someone who had gone through this, I felt like I had a unique perspective to maybe write that son character in a way that. That would feel honest.

[Christian Swagle]

I think what you did very well in the film is that idea kind of what you Were saying, like Eddie was joking right before we were recording is that he was watching it with. Oh, I'm sorry, Eddie.

[Ed]

What is with this cup?

[Christian Swagle]

This huge.

[Ed]

This is the worst cuff choice for an interview. I think this is a bad.

[Christian Swagle]

This is a bad choice. Foot, pink straw. I'm doing my best. This is a very serious subject. I needed to be caffeinated. All right. That's how it is. I brought a long straw because it's fun. It's fun for me.

[Ryan Reynolds]

All right.

[Christian Swagle]

It's better than an AK47.

[Ed]

Yes.

[Christian Swagle]

Now let's continue. I. And he was sick with his wife. They watched the movie. And his wife, lovely woman, absolutely one of the most empathetic, kind women you've ever met in your life. And she was like, he's got a lot of points immediately up top, like.

[Ed]

Pause it and be like, listen, I.

[Christian Swagle]

Have, you know, let me explain quantum grammar. But there is a. What you did great in the movie. Is that where it starts with the. Like. That's an aggrieved man. We can now see. And that. Yeah, of course we. We see all the things laid out up top. His wife is. Was dead in childbirth. He is upset about the world in general. He's been screwed by the irs. Who hasn't. Yeah, right. Who hasn't been fucked with by insurance companies?

[Ed]

Because the whole time I'm like, fuck the irs, fuck the banks, you know.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah.

[Christian Swagle]

But you do a really good idea of that because that's what it is. The subset specifics. The specific, I guess, goal is to work yourself up to trying the stuff in an applicable environment.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yes, right.

[Christian Swagle]

Like that's kind of the whole thing. There's no point to being a sovereign citizen unless you have an engagement with a police officer. Correct.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah.

[Christian Swagle]

Right. Like. Because there's really nothing else you get out of it. It's just about how to get out of being arrested. Ostensibly for the most part. But can't they see that, like what they do great. What you did. Good. Great for the movie was through the son's character of him starting to realize in those moments of like, oh, dad might be really incorrect.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah.

[Christian Swagle]

About this now, have you heard from people now, if you talked about that have hit that wall and have walked away, or if you've talked to people like. Like, what is it you think that makes them hit that wall and sometimes double down?

[Ryan Reynolds]

I. In my experience and in the people that I've met and known, that confrontation almost always leads to doubling down. I've never seen somebody get hit. You know, like the Police break the windshield. And then somebody walk away afterwards and say, well, I tested that theory. It didn't work out. Didn't work, you know, or shoot, they just took my house. That didn't work out. You know? No. In most cases I've seen that lead to a doubling down. It's kind of like what happens to these doomsday cults. You know, when the clock strikes and the world doesn't evaporate or whatever. They. They don't just pack it up and go back to their lives. They usually have a reason why they. It's still coming and it's still right. You know, I. I think once you're locked into that thought system, it's very hard to escape.

[Christian Swagle]

Just. It's so fascinating to me because there's like. Like with other cults, like, I think even calling it a cult is. Is hard, right? Because it's not. It's like a. It. A series of almost like, get. Get rich quick almost schemes that you apply to, but it's for legal things.

[Ed]

Leaders pop up like Jerry.

[Christian Swagle]

Yeah, but why does. Do you feel like maybe it's because, like, in Scientology, in the end, you will never know you'll die, right? Like, when you're dead, we don't know what's gonna happen. We know for a fact you probably don't know jack. You don't know if you're gonna go to Xenu and if you. If it's all gonna hold out, like, so you don't experience the payoff. Right. Ever. So you're always just kind of training for the next life where. That's one thing about sovereign citizens. They want you to experience that thrill right now.

[Ed]

And it's. It would. I find interesting about sovereign citizens is that they're always like, how do they get everything, like, in the first place? If they don't believe in money and they don't believe in all this stuff, like, how do they get a car? How do they get a house? You know, where do they get their. You know, like, it's very bizarre to me.

[Christian Swagle]

They naturally existed there before. You don't understand any. They naturally exist there before as cars, as we all know, cars are naturally harvested, growing under the ground. They're certainly not made by a bunch of different companies and systems.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah, I mean, I think. I think it's. It's that evolution from, you know, in the case of Jerry Kane, he was a roofer, he was a truck driver. He was a guy that was, you know, in trouble in a lot of different ways.

[Christian Swagle]

And I Actually had skills that applied to real life that actually could be very lucrative and, and, like, helpful.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah. And I think, I think that a precursor to a lot of this is being rejected from a lot of those things, you know, being fired, or maybe you're not very good at your job, or maybe you have some sort of defiance disorder and you can't really have a boss. You know, I think, I think there's a. The drive that I've seen from a lot of people that are in this movement. Specifically, though, is this feeling of, like, powerlessness. You know, feel like if you had a boss, hating having a boss, you know, like.

[Christian Swagle]

Like, I'm my own boss. I hate me. I fucking hate me.

[Ed]

I have multiple friends who are very smart, very talented, and are doing fucking nothing with their lives because they have this defiance disorder. I never heard of it, Never heard it called that before. But I'm like, my mind, I'm just like, thought of three guys, and I'm like, these guys, they need to get this under control. What, what is that?

[Ryan Reynolds]

I mean, I, I, I'm not a psychiatrist to know, but I, But I think that I, I think that, like, yeah, people chafe under how nobody likes having a boss. And I think some people just cannot tolerate it at all. If somebody tells them to do one thing, they flip out. And I think it's, it's, you know, that's a complex psychological, you know, stew or makeup that that leads to something like that. But I think a lot of this comes from that place in some ways.

[Ed]

Did Jerry Kane hold those meetings? Like, of those meetings, Was that a real thing that happened?

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah, yeah. So a lot of those speeches were, were really verbatim from his seminars. He had these seminars, and you can see, you can see them online. And so it was great because a lot of the language that's used in the film is directly stuff from his speeches.

[Christian Swagle]

Dude, when you did, when he said, I'm traveling, my wife and I cheered, man. It was like, we're like, he said it, he said it. And, like, all day since we've watched the movie, my wife and I are walking around going, it's a straw, man. How did you find the BG for that? That's great. That was wonderful. The lady in that scene with Nick Offerman was like, we talked about, we've seen, we've talked to her like, five. I know that lady.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah, they were, they were all Arkansas locals. I mean, we shot in northwest Arkansas. And the stories that you hear, like, when Nick or Jerry, in that first meeting is going around and asking people, you know, what their background is. Those are real stories from those people. There were, you know. Yeah, they were. The woman he's speaking to, she was denied her insurance and the other guy is his apartment burnt down and you know, he was kicked out by his landlord. All these stories that you know, draw people to those movements, those were actual real stories and people that, I wouldn't say they're sovereign citizens, none of them were. But I think they could certainly agree with some of the anti establishment views that he was, you know, preaching.

[Christian Swagle]

I'm looking at this picture of Jerry Kane. I did not know that he was the Big Bopper. Wow, Eddie, you look, I mean, just like him.

[Ed]

Yeah, I do, I do. Nick did a great job. But you could have talked to me. Yeah.

[Christian Swagle]

Wow. Can I actually when you're do. When you're working with Nick Offerman, obviously Nick Offerman played probably the most famous libertarian character of all time in Barks and Rec. Ron Swanson. When were, when you're doing that with him. Did, did you ever have any conversations about like this is a Ron Swanson like cuz he definitely like there were shades like I saw shades of it in it but you could kind of tell like he must have made a decision being like this is a deadlier version of Ron Swanson. Like this is like something else. Like did you have conversations about like that with. When it came to performance?

[Ryan Reynolds]

You know, it's funny like I, I, I think I had the benefit. I, I love Parks and Rec now, but I, but I wasn't introduced to Nick through Parks and Rec primarily. I had actually seen him first in this, in this series devs that Alex Garland did and so, and I mean I had been aware of him as an actor long before that but, but when I really became like a big fan of him as a dramatic actor, it was in that series. And so I think because of that and because we had the real story and videos of the real character, the I kind of the Ron Swanson of it was, was definitely like a meta layer, but it was a layer that I kind of only became aware of after we finished the film. Which sounds completely naive, but.

[Christian Swagle]

No, I mean more about like if you had to watch Nick Offerman because I also wonder if he brought that up at all.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah, I mean I, I think he, he must have been aware certainly on, on some level of it. But I think, I think in his performance, I mean Nick is an incredible artist. He's like the best and he's the best person to Work with. I hit the lottery on my cast in this film.

[Christian Swagle]

You have. This is a deep ass cast.

[Ryan Reynolds]

It's a great cast for first movie. Yeah.

[Christian Swagle]

Dennis Quaid.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah, he's great.

[Christian Swagle]

Crushed this movie.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah.

[Ed]

And Jacob Tremblay, he's like the go to sad kid.

[Christian Swagle]

He's very good at being sad.

[Ryan Reynolds]

No, I mean, for a, for a first time filmmaker to get the trust of actors like that to do an independent film is unheard of. So it was. It's fantastic. But yeah, I mean, Nick's. It's funny because in Nick's performance, he's so warm naturally. And he's so funny that when you put him in front of a crowd of people like in those seminars, in between takes, you know, he was doing his, his comedy. I mean, everybody was screaming, laughing. And so we'd go into these takes and he'd have to be like, remind him, like, Nick, you. You, you look down on these people.

[Christian Swagle]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Ryan Reynolds]

You're taking from them.

[Christian Swagle]

Yeah.

[Ed]

Stop being so likable between 10 takes, please.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah. Take the warmth down, please.

[Christian Swagle]

Yeah. Jerry Kane probably would have done much better.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah.

[Christian Swagle]

If he was you.

[Ryan Reynolds]

True.

[Christian Swagle]

Do you wonder if that actually can even. We better not educate him too much because I think one of the big issues truly, with the sovereign citizen movement is because they genuinely don't have a charismatic center. Like every single one of these guys that seem to sort of step up to be the new center either flames out, gets themselves murdered, or they're just. They don't got that X factor.

[Ryan Reynolds]

I mean, I think, I think because they live in the world of this legalese jargon and there's so many other guys that are out there gunning for them with jargon that the conversation just becomes really boring at a certain point for most people.

[Ed]

That's what happened to me.

[Ryan Reynolds]

You know, if you're arguing about an affidavit of truth versus a, you know, a negative averment versus a. You know, people tune out at a certain point if you're not completely dialed into that.

[Christian Swagle]

Yeah. Unlike me. I'm all. I'm dialed all the way in. Yeah.

[Ed]

You sent me like this three hour speech from this guy in Hawaii.

[Christian Swagle]

Oh, the quantum. That was the quantum grammar stuff.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah.

[Christian Swagle]

Because quantum grammar is my favorite stuff. I love the. You're not. You're not your corporate entity. I nothing like the concept of. Because they put your name in all capital letters on your birth certificate means that you're not. Not able to be governed is amazing. I think. What a great idea. Who are You. Are we in front of the legal Christian swing? Like, is it. Or is this the soul?

[Ryan Reynolds]

I know. It's. It's. It's kind of heartbreaking when you see those interactions with police especially, and they're finally like, yeah, who. Who are we dealing with? Is this the straw man right now or what?

[Christian Swagle]

It's just like. Well, it seems like the straw man's in here, too, also. When you did. I thought it was a cool. Is that sometimes in the dialogue, you'll say a thing that was like a blanket. Like, one thing that struck out to me was. Was stuck out to me was Nick Offerman saying, all you have to do is show up to the sun. And it's like, that's all you got to be your superstar.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah.

[Christian Swagle]

If you show up. And that, to me, is the real hook. Yeah, that's like a whole thing. It's kind of what the Magna thing's doing, too. Just being like. You mean, like, you're one of the lucky few who get it.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, that was. That's the appeal of these. Of these movements, I think. You know, the scene with Martha Plimpton where he's sort of helping her overcome her fear or, you know, that. That It's. He. I do think what these guys have is that courage thing. It's an empowering thing to people of, like, you're not just, you know, a normal person who can't pay their bills. You're a special sovereign ruler. You know, I mean, it's. It's. It's like a very attractive message to hear, and it's really. It's an empowering message, and it seems.

[Christian Swagle]

To get them laid.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah.

[Christian Swagle]

Sovereign citizens always kind of have, like, a weird sovereign citizen girlfriend. They always got, like, a weird girlfriend or a boyfriend, or they got a guy on the phone and they're calling them stuff. It's actually kind of nice.

[Ed]

It always. And then you did a great job as, like. Because that was the moment, really, in the movie where I was like, oh, he's a scumbag. You know, like, it was like. That was the exact moment I was like, oh, this guy had redeemable qualities. Or, like, he might believe what he's talking about. But when they go to the casino, I mean, it's all out the window at this point. It's like, oh, he's a manipulative scumbag who's just stealing, you know? And it was that, really, as someone who, like, my mom could have easily become a sovereign citizen, she had a gambling addiction. She was very desperate, always needed money, making the wrong turns, getting into, like, gambling anonymous meetings where she would meet all these unsavory characters. And I had to be like, that person's not making any fucking sense. You know? And so it's just like, I kept seeing, like, that Martha Plimpton character. I kept seeing my mother in that.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah.

[Ed]

And it was really hard for me, like, at times, because I see her, like, empty your bank account and like, all right, where's she getting the rest of that money? It's probably some son or some other, like, someone who's, like, funding all this.

[Christian Swagle]

That's a lady who's abandoned her family to come join him.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah, yeah. And I think these. These, you know, charismatic leader types, they, you know, they justify all of that because it's. It's for the mission. You know, it's. He's. He's got to keep spreading the word. He's got to keep doing her thing, you know, Nothing's more important than that. So if somebody like a Leslie Ann, you know, needs to be sacrificed to that, that's. That's not a problem either.

[Ed]

See, but if they don't believe in money, how do they justify taking it from people?

[Ryan Reynolds]

That's a. That's a level that I understand.

[Christian Swagle]

It's a whole thing. Because then we can kept saying, like, all right, so you don't believe in roads. You don't believe in the concept of names. Like, how are we going to have a remotely sane conversation?

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah, I don't. I mean, it's. It's. It's kind of like when you see these, you know, religious offshoots that use different religious texts as sort of the basis of their movements. I think it's like sovereign citizens have done that with. With the U.S. constitution or our set of laws. And you. Each of these guys have their own interpretation of this stuff. I mean, that was. That was. One of the things that was fascinating to me is, like you had said earlier, like, this kaleidoscope way that people get into the movement. It wasn't sort of, like, politically dogmatic from. From what I found. It was like you'd have these Earth mother types that became sovereign citizens, or you'd have, you know, these libertarian types. I mean, it was sort of a. You know, there's Moorish sovereign citizens.

[Christian Swagle]

Those. Those guys actually make me the saddest. The Moorish sovereign citizens where it's just like. It's just even worse. It's like more of a way for black people to be on a collision course with the police for no fucking reason. Like, it's a. It's so devastating.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Well, I think. I don't know if Wesley Snipes was involved. And, you know, even his tax stuff was kind of sovereign citizen adjacent. I think his tax problems. And it's. It feels like a lot of people from different walks of life definitely find their way to this strangely.

[Christian Swagle]

So what do you so have now that you're this deeply ensconced? What are you teaching? What is your sovereign citizen flavor?

[Ryan Reynolds]

Oh, man. Yeah. I. I mean, the.

[Christian Swagle]

Can you. Ready to take on new patients?

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah.

[Christian Swagle]

Can you call them patients?

[Ryan Reynolds]

I think. I think I'll have to. Yeah. It's the, like, all the different lingo and all the different legalese is. Is pretty dizzying.

[Christian Swagle]

Yes. How's your algorithm? How's your YouTube algorithm? I think we have the same YouTube algorithm at this point, probably. I just watch hours of them rambling, Dude.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Oh, man. Yeah.

[Christian Swagle]

All day long.

[Ed]

Why do you like it so much?

[Christian Swagle]

You know what it is is that I wish I had the courage to be in that level of denial. I wish that I had the courage to just like, what reality's telling me with my family's telling me I am right.

[Ed]

I'm really good at ignoring mail. I look, you know, so I take that part of it seriously.

[Christian Swagle]

How do you feel about the ironic embracement of the Martin Heemeyer and the Killdozer storyline? Like, now I feel like one thing that we're kind of at crossroads. Do you know the story?

[Ryan Reynolds]

I'm not aware. So I'm. I've been in, like, a cave for the past months finishing the film. I feel like I haven't seen anything.

[Christian Swagle]

Thankfully, this is an old story. Martin Meyer was in a land dispute with the state.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Oh, no. I am aware of this.

[Christian Swagle]

You know the story. So he built. He retrofitted an old piece of construction equipment into this gigantic indestructible machine called. He called the Killdozer. He didn't kill anybody. He did $7 million in private property damage, and then he committed suicide. But a lot of us, including me, have been sort of ironically celebrating Marvin Hemeyer and celebrating his tapes where he said, quote, sometimes world drives reasonable men to do unreasonable things. Right. Like, which is now. But on one hand, I like this idea of creating some form of civil disobedience.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah.

[Christian Swagle]

That we can get behind, because obviously it feels like our country is heading towards some form of crossroads. And I think that at some point we're going to be doing some giant inaction, massive group strike I don't know when we're going to do that.

[Ed]

It seems like we have a sovereign president right now.

[Christian Swagle]

It does. But, like, do you think shit like this is a slippery slope to sovereign modern citizen, like, worship, like this idea of like, I just like the kill. Those are just a great idea.

[Ryan Reynolds]

I do remember this. Yeah. I, I mean, it's all this, it's all the same thing in a way, you know, it's. It's this people. I, you know, even though I think people think like sovereign citizen, it's like a political slant to it, but, but it's really. It's about people versus systems. You know, it's people versus the man in a lot of ways. And, and yeah, I mean, these guys, these guys pop up and I don't know, I think, I think it's, it's something that needs to be addressed. You know, I think, I think there's inequality and inequity and nobody likes banks, nobody likes their health insurance. Nobody likes, you know, I, I live in Altadena. Our neighborhood was just burnt.

[Christian Swagle]

Yeah.

[Ryan Reynolds]

You know, and now all the like.

[Christian Swagle]

Predators are coming to come and poach all the land.

[Ryan Reynolds]

And like, they said it wasn't going to happen. Yeah. And it happens, of course. And then if you rage against that, then you're some kind of, you know, lunatic or something. I mean, I'm seeing that our whole neighborhood just get completely gobbled up by these private funds and, you know, they haven't approved any permits apparently. And.

[Ed]

Yeah.

[Ryan Reynolds]

You know, and then my neighbors are out living in some of them in hotels still. Like, people in their 70s and 80s that have like, second, third generation.

[Ed]

Oh, yeah, people had to give up their animals, their dogs.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah.

[Ed]

Had to go live somewhere where they were, wouldn't take them. And then you got fucking Stephen Miller coming out and saying that if we had a decent mayor, it all be rebuilt by now. It's like, oh, decades of construction should be rebuilt in a matter of months.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah.

[Ed]

You know, it's like, so.

[Christian Swagle]

It's crazy.

[Ryan Reynolds]

We.

[Christian Swagle]

Sounds like we're driving people crazy.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah. And I think like you, I look at, you know, if somebody came along and said, like, hey, you can fight these developers that are coming in here and you don't have to pay this thing, you know, it's like, yeah, yeah, these guys, like, we could, we could push back against this next move.

[Christian Swagle]

You gotta make about MLMs, what do you. After this, it's like, do you leave all this behind? Like when you're, when you're doing like at the End of this.

[Ed]

You definitely got some off your chest.

[Christian Swagle]

Yeah. Like, but what do you do? Like. Like. Like, what's next? You feel like this is gonna follow you. These sovereign people are gonna follow you to your.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Oh, man, I hope not. You know, like, I don't know. I mean, I definitely feel like, you know, this was an independent film, and I feel like. I feel like it's such an interesting time to make films in this country right now. There's so much. Yeah, there's so much to talk about if you're a filmmaker. There's no shortage of material to, like, dig into. And I think there's. I think if people can learn about small films like this, like, I think there's an audience for people that want to see films that reflect kind of the craziness of the time we're living in, you know, And I think there's no shortage. Shortage of. Of stuff to. To sort of move on to from here.

[Christian Swagle]

No. And I'm glad that it's not mean. Like, you didn't have to put a talk. A dog in it.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah.

[Christian Swagle]

I mean, you didn't have to do any of that stuff.

[Ed]

You could have. And we were just like, ah, he's crazy.

[Christian Swagle]

That's what he likes. That's what he likes. No, there was a dog, and it lived. And it lived. I'll let you know. Just say that before you're all upset.

[Ed]

Yeah, the dog lives. The dog lives.

[Christian Swagle]

None of the people do, but, you know, if you knew the story ahead of time, you'd know that for a fact. What's Dennis Quaid like?

[Ryan Reynolds]

He's. He's great, actually. Yeah. I mean, he's. He's very, like. He's been doing this for so long, I think that, like, he's so d. Like, there wasn't a lot of back and forth about what he was gonna do. He just. He knew what he wanted to do. He came in and did it. But then there were a couple times where, like, we had to shoot that, you know, a couple big scenes in no time. And anytime there was pressure where I'd say, dennis, we have to do this. We have, like, one take. Like, he was like, all right, let's go. Like, he, like, lit up.

[Ed]

Yeah.

[Ryan Reynolds]

So I. You know, it was. He was. He was fantastic to work with as a, you know, as a director when.

[Christian Swagle]

You'Re, like, new to directing.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah.

[Christian Swagle]

Does it help or hurt to have those types of highly experienced people there?

[Ryan Reynolds]

I think I've heard stories of it not being great.

[Christian Swagle]

I was on a set Once where a man by the name of John Turturro didn't believe that what the director was doing. Which makes sense. Sense, right?

[Ed]

Yeah.

[Christian Swagle]

And he just took. He just took over the process. And I'm like, John De Duro could tell me to do whatever he wants him. You know, like, they're all like, you lost total control of the set and just like, well, you know, it's John Detour. What are you gonna do?

[Ed]

He has directed some films and he was very.

[Christian Swagle]

He was right.

[Ed]

Yes.

[Christian Swagle]

Yeah, he actually was correct.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah, that's. I mean, that's the scary part. Like, that was my biggest cons. That was my biggest fear going into this is like, I have this incredible cast. Is anybody gonna listen to anything I have to say? But they, they were the best. I mean, they, they really, I think, embraced the first time director thing and they were like, took me under their wing and they were like, we're gonna do this together. This is fantastic. And I think it started with Nick. I mean, Nick Offerman set the tone. He was number one on the call sheet. And he. Him and Jacob then. I mean, they really set the tone for. We're all doing this collaboratively.

[Christian Swagle]

Yeah.

[Ed]

And Jacob's been in some huge movies, obviously, but if you don't remember, he was the little kid from Room.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah.

[Ed]

So he understands this pacing of a small, scary drama, you know, and like, I think he really did a great job.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah.

[Ed]

I loved everything. I loved all of his choices. I felt like I knew him. Like I grew up with those type of kids, just poor, trying to be good. And it's like. And that there's no chance because of the parents they have.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah, no. Jacob was incredible.

[Christian Swagle]

Can you immediately do the comedy version with Nick Offerman and just call it sob zits and it's all about him teaching a pro. He's going to help his son lose his virginity. I guess to, To a senator, to Nancy Pelosi.

[Ryan Reynolds]

There is a comedy version of, of this type of thing.

[Christian Swagle]

Oh, no. I've been rolling it around in my head because again, since the quantum grammar stuff, I. I can't let that go. Like, the idea of like, just the idea. I wish. Don't we all wish that there was some magical formula that would release us from all obligations and, and, and all accountability.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, if it were that easy. Yeah, yeah.

[Christian Swagle]

I mean, all you really got to do is be a music producer or, you know, be an interconnected billionaire with, you know, either working for the Mossad, working for the CIA all at once. You know what I mean? By the name of Jeffrey Epstein. That's all you really got to do to get away with it all, you know, and that's the key. That's the real key. Make yourself really important to P. Diddy. You really get out there, you know.

[Ed]

Your movie, obviously very important. I think it's definitely, it's. It's definitely covering something that people don't talk about, people don't like talking about. We've met people like this in our lives. We have, like, family members we don't like talking about. You know, that's what this movie, like, reminds me of. And it didn't get a wide release. I really wish it would have gotten a wider release because I think it really would have done well. Seems to be doing well on Apple. It was in top 10 when I purchased it yesterday.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah.

[Ed]

And it seems like it. It's doing well in Apple. So please go watch this film. Go rent this movie.

[Christian Swagle]

Rent the movie. I spent. I rented that dang movie. We need to support independent film.

[Ed]

I took the extra five and I bought it.

[Christian Swagle]

I'm better than.

[Ed]

You know what the funny part is? I'm going to expense it and he's going to end up paying for it anyway.

[Christian Swagle]

You, money's not real. Money's not real. But no, I agree. We're here, like we all about independent movies because this is the way forward. They all can't be Superman 9, especially.

[Ed]

Now in our industries, like, crippling around us. It is the time for independent film and it really needs to be nurtured now more than ever. And I think your film is beautifully shot. I think you really did a great. Because you've done cinematography work before, right?

[Ryan Reynolds]

I have, yeah. I had a. I mean, I worked with a brilliant cinematographer on this, this, but. But we had a. Yeah, it, it's everybody, every department, I think, was just, you know, really bought into trying to make something special and like boutique and even though it was small, just really trying to make something great.

[Christian Swagle]

And also, just how was it filming in the middle of nowhere?

[Ryan Reynolds]

I have to say, Arkansas was awesome.

[Christian Swagle]

Yeah.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah. I mean, everybody was so friendly. We had the support of everyone. You know, they're not jaded to a movie coming to town. They're not like, you know, wanting to know. They were just very excited that a movie was there. So all of our locations were, you know, we could, we pretty much could do what we wanted there. It was a great place. But. But the weather was awful to shoot because it swung so wildly and like, the big Climax at the end of the film. We were supposed to have a couple days for that, and we had to shoot it in one day because we had lightning strikes that shut us down. I know the whole.

[Christian Swagle]

Thing, but. I see. But also Ford Independence in production. Like, as an independent production. Great action scenes.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Thank you.

[Christian Swagle]

That. The ending was like. That was up.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah.

[Ed]

And from watching the footage afterwards, incredibly accurate.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah, yeah. We tried to stay. I mean, that's just. Our crew was just grinding. I mean, we just. Everybody was carrying cables and flying and shaking the van and throwing rubber glass, and it was nuts. Yeah. It was like film school.

[Christian Swagle]

So make sure you go reach out to your independent filmmakers, all right? Because they need you.

[Ryan Reynolds]

You.

[Christian Swagle]

They're scared, all right? And they need help. They need support. They need their own sovereign citizen movement.

[Ed]

Can I ask, how much was the budget for this?

[Ryan Reynolds]

Our budget was around 4 million.

[Christian Swagle]

Okay.

[Ryan Reynolds]

And we had below the line. I'm not sure what it was. It was much less than that. Yeah, yeah.

[Ed]

And I knew it was an independent film, obviously, because it has that energy, but then I got confused. This is just like a Hollywood question. I see Universal. Right up top. So they're just the distributor, basically.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah. So what happens is we. We did the movie independ. We have a US Distribution company called Briarcliffe that handled our theatrical distribution, which was a couple. You know, I think we were in 50 screens or something. And then they partnered with Universal for home video, so they basically released the movie. You know, I'm not sure exactly how that partnership works, but it was. My understanding is it was a home video partnership.

[Ed]

Okay, cool.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Yeah.

[Christian Swagle]

Yeah.

[Ed]

Because I was surprised. I'm like, wait a second.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Universal, though, it's pretty cool to see the logo in front for me as a filmmaker.

[Christian Swagle]

Yeah, I'm a Universal. Yeah, I'm a Universal filmmaker.

[Ed]

You in Jurassic World right now.

[Christian Swagle]

Well, seriously, go check out Sovereign anywhere you could rent any film. Right? Like, I got it on Amazon myself. Yeah, you know me. Big Bezos head. Big Bezos had super happy for those ladies.

[Ed]

I'm a Wozniak boy. It's.

[Christian Swagle]

But, yeah, please rent the film. Pay full money for it. All right? Because, yes, to most sovereign citizens, money isn't real. But to these filmmakers, money is.

[Ed]

All right?

[Christian Swagle]

So make sure you do that.

[Ed]

All right.

[Christian Swagle]

But, wow, thank you so much for being here with us, man.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Thank you, guys. This is awesome.

[Ed]

Christian, you put so much heart into this film and so much personal experience. It deserves all the love it can get, and I really hope it does. Well. Come award season if you people like still give it the love it deserves cuz it was awesome.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Thank you so much. Really it's a. It's an honor to be here. Thank you.

[Christian Swagle]

Of course. Dude, just so go check out suffering and don't. Don't act like the first half is a. As a. Just just get past it. Okay? Because he's not right. He's not correct. But write down the ideas you like. Some of the ideas are are are good. Beginner.

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