Fire As A Weapon for Murder

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Law Enforcement Talk: True Crime and Trauma Stories

Episode: Fire As A Weapon for Murder
Host: John "Jay" Wiley
Guest: Charles "Chuck" Sherman, Retired California Police Sergeant
Original Air Date: February 15, 2026

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Overview

In this emotionally charged episode, retired California police sergeant Charles "Chuck" Sherman joins host John "Jay" Wiley to recount a harrowing on-view homicide where fire was used as a weapon. The conversation delves into the personal and professional challenges of responding to such gruesome incidents, the lack of training for unique forms of violence, and the lingering impact on those who serve. The episode also explores broader themes of trauma, inadequate peer support, and how both men are coping and helping others post-retirement.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Responding to the Unthinkable: The Scene and Initial Shock

• Unexpected Nature of the Call: Unlike a dispatched call, the incident began when Sherman was flagged down by a passerby reporting a man on fire ([10:02]). He was caught completely off guard, losing the chance to mentally prepare for the crisis.

  • “It wasn't even a dispatch. I was parked on the side of the road… A gentleman on a bike rolled up to me… and he says, there's a guy on fire. Well, I brushed him away from my car. Get out of here. You're crazy.” (Sherman, [10:02])

• Bizarre, Chaotic Scene: Sherman arrives to find a man fully engulfed in flames, screaming at a woman who is naked and dressing nearby. He must tussle with how to report such a surreal event over the radio, improvising codes and struggling to communicate the urgency ([10:49]–[11:59]).

• Immediate Helplessness: Both Sherman and Wiley highlight the deep sense of inadequacy officers feel in such situations.

  • “Nothing prepared me for that. The smells…but also the feeling inadequate. Is that a fair assumption for you?” (Wiley, [02:51])
  • “Not only inadequate, but you're helpless…You're basically betting your life experience on just, you know, stop, drop and roll.” (Sherman, [02:52])

The Incident: From Chaos to Investigation

• Acting Without Guidance: With no policies or training for a "human on fire," Sherman must make split-second decisions—try (uselessly) to extinguish the flames, decide whether to move the victim while risking further injury, and secure the nearby woman he suspects is involved ([13:44]–[14:46]).

• The Perpetrator’s Calm: The woman's demeanor is disturbingly casual as she calmly admits to dousing the man in gasoline and lighting him with a barbecue lighter following a sexual dispute.

  • “Just that calm. And when I say calm, there was no hysteria. There was just very calm. Yeah, he did this, and I didn't like it, so I lit him on fire.” (Sherman, [15:30])

• Unexpected Aftermath: The woman is found guilty but, in a quirk of the California justice system, serves only four days of a four-year sentence ([17:21]).

Impacts on Officers: Trauma, Guilt, and Lack of Support

• Long-Lasting Effects: Sherman and Wiley discuss the residual trauma from such calls—triggered by sounds, smells, or locations years later.

  • “It relives it. And I have to check myself and say…we move forward. But it's a continuous thing.” (Sherman, [21:21])

• Lack of Institutional Support: The culture of law enforcement discourages emotional vulnerability. Sherman recounts being chastised—not comforted—by a superior for sounding “out of control” on the radio while witnessing a man burn to death ([20:16]).

  • “I'm pretty disappointed in you…Your voice sounded a little bit out of control on the radio.” (Sherman quoting superior, [20:16])
  • “The only time I ever spoke to a subordinate about voice inflection is if they're in the middle of a pursuit. But in this…so be it.” (Sherman, [22:25])

• Social Isolation and Hypervigilance: Both men describe profound changes in personality, social behavior, and constant hyper-alertness years after retirement.

  • “I spend more time with my dog than I do with people. And it's a real chore to go out in public.” (Wiley, [31:03])
  • “We have set ourselves up for so much sensory [input]…that switch doesn't turn off.” (Sherman, [31:32])

Surviving and Helping Others: Advice & Advocacy

• Need for Mental Health Awareness: Both urge current and prospective officers to proactively seek trauma-informed therapy; don't rely on the department to recognize or support your needs ([26:09]).

  • “Get yourself a trauma informed therapist and go. Do not make the department [send you]…because you’re going to encounter stuff that is going to damage you and ding you.” (Wiley, [26:09])

• Peer Discussion as Therapy: Sherman highlights the importance of talking about traumatic experiences rather than compartmentalizing them, and mentoring newer officers on what’s to come ([35:38]).

  • “The best thing is talk about it…If you’re not talking about it, it’s staying in a compartment in your brain…You need to have some safety measures in place.” (Sherman, [35:38])

• Post-Retirement Advocacy & Training: Sherman continues his service through Controlled Response Institute, offering training in emotional control, scenario-based responses, and self-awareness for law enforcement and corrections ([37:26]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Scene’s Surreality:

  • “I drive over there, and as I pull up, my scene exists of a small parked [car] facing…the business doors are closed, but I can see there’s smoke engulfed in the inside of the car. Next to the car is a grown man fully engulfed in flames, using explicits towards a female who is 20ft away, completely naked, putting on her underwear. That’s the scene I rolled up on.” – Sherman ([10:32])

• On Lack of Training:

  • “Despite the fact in my career it happened to me four times, there’s still no training for it. Call the fire department is about all they tell you.” – Sherman ([08:13])

• On Emotional Aftermath & Leadership:

  • “Your voice sounded a little bit out of control on the radio.”
    – Sherman's lieutenant ([20:16])
  • “What am I supposed to sound like when I’m watching a man burn to death?” – Sherman ([20:17])

• On Culture of Suppression:

  • “If you said something about it, you were…looked down upon. Yeah, suck it up and move on. That’s what I was always told.” – Sherman ([23:37])

• On Isolation in Retirement:

  • “It’s not that I don’t like people. I don’t like a lot of people. I spend more time with my dog than I do with people.” – Wiley ([31:03])
  • “I’m exactly the same way…We have set ourselves up for so much sensory…That switch doesn’t turn off.” – Sherman ([31:32])

• On Coping Mechanisms:

  • “My wife always gets onto me because I don’t socialize with her family…I just want the peace and quiet.” – Sherman ([33:50])

• On the Need for Peer Support:

  • “We didn’t have a safety net. You guys have a safety net. You need to learn how to put it in place and be able to use it because it can destroy marriages, it can destroy family lives, it can destroy careers if you’re not [careful].” – Sherman ([36:38])

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Timestamps – Important Segments

| Timestamp | Topic / Key Segment | |---|---| | [02:52] | Officers’ helplessness and lack of preparation for unique trauma | | [04:57] | Sherman details previous traumatic fire deaths in career | | [10:02] | Beginning of the homicide call – flagged down, bizarre scene described | | [11:59] | Struggling to communicate incident over police radio | | [15:30] | Woman’s chilling confession and disturbing calmness | | [17:21] | Trial outcome: minimal sentence for homicide by fire | | [21:21] | Lingering trauma, sensory triggers, ongoing visualization | | [20:16] | Leadership's criticism of officer's emotional response | | [23:37] | “Suck it up and move on”: culture of emotional suppression in policing | | [26:09] | Advice for trauma-informed self-care (avoid department therapists) | | [31:03] | Social isolation and preference for solitude in retirement | | [35:38] | Importance of talking about trauma and mentoring others | | [37:26] | Controlled Response Institute – post-retirement mission |

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Structured Takeaways

Systemic Challenges

• Policing often fails to prepare or support officers through extreme trauma, especially for unusual, violent incidents.
• Peer and institutional support remains insufficient, leading to suppressed emotions and long-term psychological scars.

Personal Impact

• Traumatic calls involving fire and violence profoundly change responding officers’ perspectives, emotional health, and social lives—often resulting in isolation, hypervigilance, and struggle with triggers.

The Path Forward

• Sherman and Wiley strongly endorse proactive mental health care and open peer discussion.
• Sherman continues his advocacy through education, training, and scenario-based emotional survival work, helping the next generation of officers to be better equipped for the harsh realities of the job.

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Learn More / Get Involved

Guest’s Initiative:
Controlled Response Institute
controlledresponseinstitute.com
Trainings on emotional control, scenario response, and law enforcement wellness.

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This summary covers the essential content, personal reflections, and professional insights from the episode "Fire As A Weapon for Murder" on the Law Enforcement Talk: True Crime and Trauma Stories podcast.

Transcript

[A]

He's a career police officer. During his career, we have something in common. He handled a call where a guy set himself on fire fatally. He's here to talk about the experience, the bewilderment, the lack of training and lack of preparation and what he does about it today. Welcome to the law enforcement talk radio show. In the law enforcement talk radio show we are joined by special guests talking about their experiences, the realities of investigating crimes, plus those who have experienced horrendous trauma. Police, first responders, military and victims of crime share their stories. Hi, I'm John J. Wiley. In addition to being a broadcaster, I'm also a retired police sergeant. Be sure to check out our website, letradio.com and also like us on Facebook, search for the law enforcement talk radio show. You know, we used to have an app and it was a very popular app and then guess what, we couldn't hold a candle through our Facebook presence. How many people have the mobile Facebook app already installed on their phone? How many people use it on their computer? Make sure you follow us, make sure you like us on our Facebook page. Just search for law enforcement talk radio show and podcast and be sure to send us a comment to one of the posts. Best of all, as 100% free contest from California we have Charles Chuck Sherman on the phone. He is retired from a California police agency. Still working, working like a dog. As I say, he's like me, he's retired sergeant or he was and now he's still working. But during your career, Charles, career, one call stands out. There's multiples I'm sure that do, but one that we have in common where a person set themselves on fire. We're going to talk about that. Charles, thanks for your service, number one and thanks for being guest on a law enforcement talk radio show and talking about it, both very much appreciate it.

[B]

I appreciate it sir. Thank you for the time.

[A]

It's good to have you on here. And this is something before we get into your incident, you were recently promoted sergeant when this occurred, correct?

[B]

Yes, sir.

[A]

I was a young patrolman. I was fresh out of the academy within a couple months and we got a call for a person to set themselves dust themselves in gasoline and then set themselves on fire. And immediately, if you're like me, you start thinking, okay, this is what I need to do when I get there, blah, blah, blah, Nothing, nothing prepared me for that. And I was thinking, oh, let this be a false call, let this be unfounded, let this be some, some other thing. We pull up and the guy is truly on fire and he falls and he dies and he's right in front of his family. And nothing to this day prepared me for that. A, the smells, but B, also the feeling inadequate. Is that a fair assumption for you?

[B]

Not only inadequate, but you're helpless. They don't, they don't prepare you for this. In a, in a police academy, in a scenario, training of, in case this happens, you can do A, B or C, you're basically betting your life experience on just, you know, stop, drop and roll.

[A]

Right?

[B]

I mean, that's in essence what it is.

[A]

Well, that's what they teach in kindergarten, isn't it?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Stop, drop, roll. Here's the thing, like, and I don't want to sound like a pencil pusher, because I never was. As a matter of fact, that's an insult I throw out quite often, especially in police work. But you don't want to handle it wrong. And so you start going through a checklist. Okay, when I get there, I got to do this, I got to protect the crime scene, Gotta do that. And nothing prepared me for this call. This should never happen.

[B]

Yes, 100%. And it's even worse when you're not even really prepared. It just kind of sprung on you and you think it's coming from somebody that's under the influence of some narcotic and they're just crazy. And then you get there and it's the whole picture all at one time, not even led into it. It's a whole picture and you're. Everybody's looking to you for support. Everybody's looking for you to decisions and you have none of.

[A]

The other thing is you were a sergeant with his courage, and it's a whole different level of responsibility over sergeant, police officer.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

And I relied on my sergeants when I was a police officer to tell me what to do, especially when I didn't know what to do. And nothing I didn't know what to do with this call.

[B]

Correct? Yep.

[A]

Did you feel that, before we go into details of the call itself, did you feel that as a sergeant, that. That you weren't prepared for this either?

[B]

Not at all. And I had just come out of running a police academy and being a coordinator of an entire police academy and my entire shift, was everybody from the academy? So I knew that they were going to be looking to me to make these decisions, that I, from the seat of my pants was just having to do whatever I could do. I did not feel ready for this at all. Even though this had been my fourth person, I still wasn't ready. It was like a brand new thing. Every single time I had to go through that.

[A]

This is a fourth person that died by suicide or fourth person that set themselves on fire and died by suicide.

[B]

I had a. One was a car crash and it happened to be another officer's son that died in a car crash and burned to death. Second one was another car crash where the car was so crumpled we couldn't get to him and extract him and he burned to death. Another one was some guy was upset at his wife and lit himself on fire.

[A]

Here's the thing, Chuck. I don't even recall what this was about. And people want to know. It's like they want to put a neat little bow on it. And there's so much in life that is not that way. But when this person died by suicide, the family members were right there and I had to deal with them and I had to deal with the death. I didn't deal with everything. And this is. There's just. Where do you start?

[B]

Yeah, there's no. You don't have an answer. Everybody wants answers and you're still trying to rationalize it in your own head, let alone give somebody else an answer of why this occurred. When you don't have an answer, especially.

[A]

When you're the sergeant you're supposed to be the man you're supposed to know, do this, do that, do this.

[B]

100%.

[A]

And unfortunately, this is something the police work in California and Maryland as well. A lot of the things we learned in the policies and procedures that we learned were from past mistakes. And this is not what is the chances of two retired police sergeants both having someone die by suicide from. From fire. Yes, that's. But there's nothing. There's some things that happen with. Like for example. And before we go into your incident, the Miami shootout involving the FBI. They had FBI agents that were shot that were emptying brass into their hand. From that day on, we changed the way we worked at the range. No longer you allowed to do that because became part of your training, became second nature. And that's unfortunately how a lot of these things occur. You would think at this day and age that there would be some sort of policy and procedure for death by suicide, how to handle it. We could argue all day long about agencies in their preparation for that. I will say this. Every thing that we saw was treated as a homicide first, and then suicide was established as a cause. Then it was treated that way, but it was never their way because you couldn't go back and redo it differently. Was there ever a doubt in your mind?

[B]

As I was going through it in our agency, I handled the scene and then because it became a homicide, the detectives show up and I'm supposed to tell them what I've learned, what I've developed. At that point, I was so stuck at that point where I didn't know what to tell them. It was such a crazy story that I literally, if I had not recorded a statement, they would have thought I was crazy just because. And then once the pieces started falling in, they finally, they're like, okay, wow, this is really crazy. It did happen that way because it was that far fetched. It was just one of those things where it was thrown in and you're trying to figure things out as it goes. You got to get medical here. You got to do this. You got somebody who's completely burning like a torch and you got to figure out what to do with them. It was, it was such an overload in my cognitive part of my brain that I didn't come down for a couple days. I continued to think about it. What could I have done different? And I'm like you. And the problem is we still haven't developed any training. Despite the fact in my career it happened to me four times, there's still no training for it. Call the fire department is about all they tell you.

[A]

And the other thing is there's no way to deal with the aftermath. There's no training on that as well. We're talking about Charles Chuck Sherman. He's retired police sergeant from an agency in California still working and his website, if you want to get more details about what he does today, his controlled response. That's controlled response institute.com we return to law enforcement talk radio show. We're going the details of what happened during and after. Don't go anywhere. We'll be right back.

[B]

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[A]

Return conversation with Charles Chuck Sherman on the law enforcement talk radio show. Charles is retired from police agency in California. Still working his website. He's one of the movers and shakers for Controlled Response institute. That's controlled responseinstitute.com is a website. We're talking about a call for service. You're newly promoted, sergeant. About a death by fire for. I don't know how to describe it. First of all, what kind of call? How did the dispatcher address it or tell you what's going on?

[B]

It wasn't even. It wasn't even a dispatch. I was parked on the side of the road and I was texting my spouse, and a gentleman on a bike rolled up to me, and we have a methamphetamine problem in Bakersfield. So you can kind of see what I'm trying to say, right? And he says, there's a guy on fire. Well, I brushed him away from my car. Get out of here. You're crazy. And he kept insinuating, no, there's really a guy on fire. So he points out the area. I drive over there, and as I pull up, my scene exists of a small parked in facing. The business doors are closed, but I can see there's smoke engulfed in the inside of the car. Next to the car is a grown man fully engulfed in flames, using explicits towards a female who is 20ft away, completely naked, putting on her underwear. That's the scene I rolled up on.

[A]

And it's on view. We called it on View in Baltimore. It wasn't. You weren't dispatched to a call service. This happened something. You got flagged down. Yes. So you didn't have at least the preparation time. Okay. This is what I do when I get there, when I'm heading there, you start thinking about the checklist, what you got to do. You didn't have that opportunity.

[B]

No. Literally, it was a half a block from where I was at.

[A]

Oh, my good. And when you pull up, this guy's on fire, he's yelling at his. This woman who's getting dressed. That right there would say, yeah, you're out to lunch.

[B]

Yeah. And, you know, so you sit here and, you know, we're very radio heavy, so I'm literally trying to figure out what to put on the radio so to get more units here. I know that. Okay. I can't panic. I got to keep my tone normal. But we don't have codes for man on fire. No, we. We don't. So we have a structure fire, which in, in our era was a 904. So I would say 904 human. And of course, lovely. Dispatch has no idea what I'm talking about, so that it becomes this banter back and forth because they're trying to figure out what I'm saying. I'm trying to figure out how not to just say, you know, something plain text on the radio that brings everybody, you know, the media and everybody.

[A]

That's exactly right.

[B]

But trying to get people here, trying to get help as soon as I can, realizing once the man collapses next to the burning car, I know what my next job is.

[A]

And when you. And by the way, we used to. The 10 codes, we used to study them like crazy. Every agency is different. We study them like crazy all through the academy. And then halfway through this time, on streets, they went out the window. We're like, send me an ambo. Send me a tow truck. Yeah. Because it's like, what is.

[B]

And we're weird because we use tens, elevens, and nines.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

So we got one speed. We had a mixture of all three.

[A]

The other thing was, I remember to this day. Then we'll go back to your story. I remember to this day being a young rookie patrolman fresh out of the academy. And I got a call back then we used 1018, meant return to the station. And the sergeant says to me, 10:18. I'm like, okay. Then I'm looking through my sheet, cheat sheet. What is 1018?

[B]

You're trying to find it.

[A]

I'm trying to find it, and I don't want it. I finally got in there. I don't know what that means. They said, return to the station. Okay. But as a sergeant, you're not.

[B]

You're supposed to know that.

[A]

Yeah. And your, your, Your quandary is you don't know how to say. You don't explain on the radio. And dispatches, especially their civilian dispatchers, and God bless them, I'm not criticizing them, they want to know details. The police, they. They tend to know a little more and they ask a lot less questions. Yes.

[B]

And they, they become just as curious. What is he looking at? I mean, because, you know, this was back, we didn't have pole cameras and things. So they're basically going off whatever my voice is and then fluctuation in my voice and what I'm saying on the radio, which is confusing them worse. So that just makes them more curious trying to figure out what's going on. Because there was no dispatch call. It was me pulling up and putting stuff out on the radio.

[A]

And when the first thing you want as a police officer on scene is you want to put the fire out, and it's a fire department does that, Right?

[B]

Yeah. It's the natural instinct of a human life is Being taken. I need to do what I can do to prevent this. But, you know, we don't have things to put it out. I knew the little miniature fire extinguisher in the trunk of my car was going to be completely inadequate. Wasn't going to put it out. And then he collapses on gravel, asphalt. So I'm. My mind, I'm thinking, okay, I got to get him away from the burning car. But I know what happens if I drag him. I'm going to tear all the skin off.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Simultaneously, I hear the voices that are coming to help me. They're all brand new people that I'm going to throw right into the middle of this chaotic event and say, grab a lamb. We've got to move him. And then I'm still trying to contend with the female putting her clothes back on, because I'm assuming pretty well that she's a part of this at some point.

[A]

Yeah. Look, if you're naked, you're putting clothes on, and the guy next to you is yelling obscenities at you, and he's on fire. Yeah. You're part of it.

[B]

Yep. So it's that. It's that priority. Okay. What's my priorities right at this moment? You know, So I was able to get the female and secure her in a car. Once my troops got there, we were able to move them away from the car. Medical aid took him, and of course, you know, immediately they got him on the gurney. He had stopped talking, and he told us that he was. He wasn't going to make it. Was there anybody else in the burning car? So I got fired there. And then I literally go to the female in the car, and I'm like, what happened? I didn't know what else to say. I don't know if it was accidental, what it was, but what happened? And she, in essence, through a long conversation, really quick, they're engaged in some sort of sexual activity that she didn't. Didn't approve of. Took a can of gas from the front seat, poured it on him and lit him with a. With a barbecue lighter. Just that calm. And when I say calm, there was no hysteria. There was no panic. There was just very calm. Yeah, he did this, and I didn't like it, so I let him on fire. I'm not here everyday occurrence.

[A]

I'm not here to judge. I'm sure you weren't either. But here's the thing, people. I remember being a police officer in Baltimore, and I'm yelling at a guy to sit down because his neck is wide. Open from. He got stabbed from leading the prayers. And I'm like, what is wrong? And people, you try to tell them, they talk to you in a way where they're either completely hostile, completely out of their minds, are totally rational, and they are drop dead serious. And that's what this one sounded like. She was drop dead serious and didn't care.

[B]

Yeah. And that even made it more confusing to me was just the normality of it. Like this was an everyday occurrence for her. Like, it was nothing unusual. She did nothing wrong. She didn't like what happened. So she lit this man on fire. I mean, luckily I was smart enough at the time, I did record. And I recorded it because when the detectives show up, they thought I made it up.

[A]

I would think that too.

[B]

Well, I learned to play the recording for him.

[A]

Here you are a newly promoted police sergeant, and you're telling them something that sounds like number one. The whole incident sounds crazy, but they're telling them a story that doesn't make sense, doesn't add up.

[B]

Correct. And they're literally looking at me like, okay, Chuck, we know you're kind of a. Kind of a funny guy. Really. What happened? And so I just played the recording. I literally. There was nothing else I could do. Here's the recording of what she said. And I was like, I guess you guys gonna have to figure it out.

[A]

That's crazy.

[B]

Once the thing was processed, every single piece of what she said matched with her story.

[A]

That's crazy. And what was without singer name, what was the final disposition? A trial.

[B]

Well, it is California. She came, I went to trial. I testified in the preliminary and the jury trial, which was its own emotional response for me. She got found guilty and sentenced to four years and was released in four days.

[A]

Wow. We're talking with Charles Chuck Sherman, retired police sergeant from a police agency in California about a particular on view incident where a the guy was killed by fire. And we're going to talk about the impacts on him and what it does about it. Don't go anywhere. This is law enforcement talk radio show. We'll be right back. Of all the radio stations in the United States, there are no other shows like the law enforcement talk radio show. And on Facebook, there's only one official page. Do a search on Facebook for the law enforcement talk radio show and be sure to like the law enforcement talk radio show Facebook page. Return to conversation with Charles Chuck Sherman on the law enforcement talk radio show. He is a retired police officer sergeant from the Bakersfield, California police department and talking about a call or an on view incident during his career that involved death or homicide by fire. I had a call for a suicide by fire. Yours was a homicide and the difference was also between self inflicted was called being dispatched to the call in my case and yours is on view. So I want to go. By the way, he's one of the movers and shakers for Controlled Response Institute. Their website is controlled response institute.com this controlled response institute.com One of the things that when I knew I was going to do this interview with you, it started flashing back and I hate that term because it's overused, especially by Hollywood. But I started thinking back to my call with a guy who died by suicide. I was probably 22, I was a young youngster and this guy set himself on fire and he died in front of his family and your victim died as well. The difference was I was called and I had to drive the scene and I'm driving thinking down a checklist of things I got to do. And secondly, I'm not a sergeant where I'm supposed to be know what to do. So the impact on you had to be profound.

[B]

Very much, Very much.

[A]

Is this still bothering you?

[B]

One of the immediate impacts was a lieutenant, my patrol lieutenant showed up and he asked me how my my troops were doing. And my answer was I'm have checked with them, you know, I'm taking care of them, they're good, they're good. And instead of asking about me, he said, well, I'm pretty disappointed in you. And I was confused. I was completely confused. I said disappointed, what I do? Well, your voice sounded a little bit out of control on the radio.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And at that point my natural instincts of defensiveness kicked in and I said what am I supposed to sound like when I'm watching a man burn to death? And he's like, well, I just, I expected more, you know, and I did. I just kind of left it that. But it was one of those frustrating things is like you didn't ask how I felt about it, you know, the impact it's going to have on me. And said you came and chastised on me for being excited on the radio. Yeah, it's going to happen. But even to this day it's one of those things where I go near that area, I still visualize it, I see it. I can go to certain barbecue joints and as not favorable it is to say there are certain smells that will trigger it and I will relive every little aspect of that situation. I will remember the color of her underwear putting on her clothes. The things I found on the ground that fell out of the car, the interior of the car, it just. It relives it. And I have to check myself and say, okay, the emotions there, we work our way through it and we move forward. But it's a continuous thing because you know what I mean, I've got 35 years in. There's plenty of things that cause emotional trauma that we carry with us, and we just move on and we have to live with it. And people think that when we retire that we give it up. We don't. We carry baggage out of retirement with it. It stays with us.

[A]

Here's the thing that I tell people. Number one, that the problems for me started when things got quiet. When I was in the mayhem, the drama, the trauma. I knew my job, I knew what the to do, and I. I kind of thrived in that. I did well. But when things got really quiet, that's when the things that pop my mind, and I had a lot of difficulty dealing with them. One of the things I want to go back to, I. In my. Look back at my police career, I've been involved in many shootings, have been involved in many things. I got quite animated, quite agitated sometimes on the radio. I have never, ever had a commanding officer or superior officer ever chastise me for the sound of my voice, ever.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I.

[B]

That's one of those things that I hold against that person.

[A]

I can't even begin to tell them that. Why they wouldn't do that. Yeah.

[B]

You know, the only time I ever spoke to a subordinate about voice inflection is if they're in the middle of a pursuit.

[A]

Right. Because we can't do.

[B]

Yeah. If you're not controlling your voice and you're not controlling your car, that kind of thing. But in this, you're looking at some. I don't know how to describe the call, what your voice does, and so be it. Because it is a. It is a situation where you don't know what to do. You have to do something. You don't just get in your car and pretend you didn't see it. You've got to get help. You've got to do what you got to do. And if my voice raised or things like that, then that's fine. But to come over and say something to me about it on the scene, this isn't days later. This is like. Right. There was not the time to do that.

[A]

The other thing is, there's so much about your story to unpack. One of the things And I policed earlier than you. Different time frame. We didn't have critical incidents. We didn't have peer support. We didn't have a critical incident. Stress debriefing. And I always say it really wasn't the big things that caused the problems. It was the daily grind. And this almost sounds like the daily grind.

[B]

Yes. My town is small. I don't know if it's small in California state's about 500,000 people. So there's a lot. And we deal with a lot of shootings and things like that. And it is a lot of people like to go to our department because you get flushed into working homicides in big cases really quick because they happen constantly. And so you do end up with a lot of emotional baggage. And, you know, I don't like to call it my culture, but in my day, when I was growing up in it, we were given the instruction, there's no support, there's no nothing. If you said something about it, you were. You were looked down upon. Yeah, suck it up and move on. That's what I was always told. Suck it up and move on. We had a years later, how damaging.

[A]

That is one of the things that you used to say in Baltimore. And look, I get it both ways. And there's a unique accent that people have. They used to say, suck it up, buttercup, you're the Baltimore police. You can lick your wounds later. We got a job to do. And that's the way things were. And by the way, the way we handled a lot of really bad calls is we get a 12 pack or a case of beer and go to a parking lot afterwards and talk it out.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. It's. The world's become more violent towards cops. There's more bad things going on, you know, that, that we're seeing now and more videos and all this kind of stuff that goes around. You know, one of the big things that they do have now is they, you know, they do have that emotional support. They do have people that get in this profession, they're leaving within six months because they don't realize it, you know, and then they have their first critical incident review, which we. That wasn't even thought process when I was growing up. You have a bad call, baby drowning, something like that. There was no review. There was no, hey, how is that guy? Has somebody checked on him lately? There was none of that. Now we have a lot more of it, which is getting better, but I still don't think it's where it should be.

[A]

No, I don't Think so. And part of it is, and I'm gonna phrase this to form a question because we did overlap a little bit, my wife, who I met years after retiring from police work, and she, she's like a gift from God. But every now and then I would tell her some stories about what I went through in policing. And she's like, devastated. She can't imagine. She goes, and what did the department do? And I said, nothing. They acted like it was on the next call. And there's still nothing being done.

[B]

No.

[A]

And one of the things, one of.

[B]

The things, the bigger picture, just because you put the R, the retired word on your badge, it doesn't take all the baggage away.

[A]

It doesn't.

[B]

And a lot of our agencies forget about retirees. Oh, they're gone. They don't matter anymore. And that's another problem that we have.

[A]

Don't even get me started on that. One of the things that, that I got, I'm sure you get this question quite often, is a, I'll meet so and so my son, my daughter, my nephew, whatever. They want to be a police officer, what advice would you give them? And I said, the very piece of ibiz. You go to a doctor every year, get a physical, you go to dentist every year, get an inspection or the dental inspection, all this stuff. Get yourself a trauma informed therapist and go. Do not make the department go because you're going to encounter stuff that is going to damage you and ding you. And by the time it damages you, it could be too late.

[B]

No, I agree with you 100%. And I say a lot, I tell a lot of them, yes, the department might provide you with a therapist, but who is paying that therapist? And so that's why a lot of officers won't trust the department therapist because they know if they go in and they say something that may affect their employment, that it's going to get reported. And so that's why a lot of them won't go talk to them. It's something that you have to look out for yourself. It's like buying your own special life insurance, buying, you know, the high tech gear, the special boots that work for you. You got you something to protect yourself because it will carry over into a family, it will carry over into your personal life.

[A]

Sure will.

[B]

And next you know, you're damaging everything.

[A]

We're talking about Charles Chuck Sherman. He is a retired police sergeant from California Police Agency and he's one of the primary movers and shakers for controlledresponseinstitute.com as controlled responseinstitute.com we return. We'll talk more about this death by fire and impacts on him and what he's doing about it today. Don't go anywhere. We'll be right back. There are more than 700 free podcast.

[B]

Episodes of the law Enforcement Talk radio show.

[A]

Episodes are converted to a free podcast.

[B]

After airing on radio. You're bound to find a podcast episode.

[A]

That suits you@l ET radio.com l ET radio.com that's l ET radio.com. Return conversation on the Law Enforcement Talk Radio show with Charles Chuck Sherman. I love saying that because wasn't there in a general during the Civil War named Chuck Sherman or Charles Sherman? I can't remember.

[B]

Yes, there was.

[A]

Okay. Makes me feel like I knew something. But that's, that's, that's pretty easy to do because I don't know a whole lot. He's a retired police sergeant in California, and during his illustrious career, he had an incident where it was a homicide. The victim died by fire. And it's just a crazy, crazy story. He's one of the primary moves or takers for Controlled Response institute. As controlled responseinstitute.com their website again is controlled responseinstitute.com check it out. Charles. One of the things I look back and a lot of my guests and I say in a show that we're police, not everybody was, is that we laugh and joke that I'm dinged up, I'm damaged goods, but I'm okay with it. Doesn't mean I'm bad. Doesn't mean I'm just not the same guy I was when I was 18, 19, and 20. I'm a different cat. How would you describe yourself after a career in policing? Are you different?

[B]

I'm way different. And my life, my entire family are preachers or ministers. So I grew up in a preacher's family. I have no law enforcement in my family whatsoever. So when I got into it, I literally got into it. Very, very small reason of I need a good insurance. So I'm not one of the guys that got into it. I'd never been in a fight until I started in law enforcement. And then when I got into it, I went through all these years. It changed me completely. Every bit of it changed me. And some of it was good, some of it was bad, but it completely changed me. So I'm at the end of it now where I look at all the bumps and bruises, you know, injuries that I have and the emotional distress that I have. I look at it every day. And I tell myself, I'm forced to tell myself, I change one person's life every day. I don't care how big a thing it was. Got to save the domestic violence victim or, you know, I helped the transit transient find some homes. Something. I have to put the positive into it because if you don't, then you just spend your rest of your retirement going, why did I do it?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So you kind of have to spin it a little bit. And I know I did something good. I changed somebody's life every day that I went to work.

[A]

Those are. Those tend to be things I don't think of. I think of the bad stuff, the unsolved cases. That's what comes to mind most often.

[B]

Yeah, there's a lot of things that you left unfinished, and those are very difficult to deal with because as cops, we don't like not hitting the end game. We don't like getting to the finish of stuff. That's why we do it. So there's a lot of the unsolved cases you still think about, even think about to this day, where, you know, you still have connections with, with people that you spoke to. When you're a patrol and you're waiting for that one phone call to give you that information to finish that case, you know, and you just keep moving forward. That's. That's all you can do.

[A]

One of the things that my wife will say to me, this goes into change conversation, she goes, that you, my friends, jokingly say, not much. So much wife that I'm. I don't like a lot. I don't like people. And I want to correct that. It's not that I don't like people. I don't like a lot of people. I spend more time with my dog than I do with people. And it's a real chore to go out in public.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And I don't want to be that way. How do you describe yourself?

[B]

I'm exactly the same way. I don't like going to concerts. I don't like going to big functions because to me, it's an overload. We have set ourselves up for so much sensory getting into our senses. We're constantly looking for what we believe is a threat. That switch doesn't turn off. And so when you get in these big crowds, you're so busy looking around, trying to, you know, know where the exit is. Where am I going to sit, you know, who's who, you're, you know, you're. You're looking at people that you can't relax you can't go into, you know what General Cooper said, condition white.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You can't get down to there because we haven't been in there since before law enforcement. So it makes it very difficult then in here, you know, if you're, if you're, you have a CCW from your department you're carrying around, hey, you're responsible because you know what's going to happen if something bad happens. You're still, even though you retire, you're still expected to do something.

[A]

Yeah, you still are.

[B]

So we don't get to have that enjoyment.

[A]

And it's, I won't say funny, but that's the only word that comes to mind. It's not haha funny. It's like I, I'm not as hyper vigilant as I used to be, but I'm still much more vigilant than a lot of other people. And for example, going on a flight with my, she, she knows this, or I go on a flight with my wife or even by myself, the first thing I do is I visually frisk everybody that walks towards me. And then I go into train of thought of if I have to fight this guy, what do I do? What do I strike first? And I don't want to be that guy. I don't want to be that way.

[B]

No, but you can't turn it off. You can't, you're still kind of go to the gym. And I do that. I go wherever I go. I play a lot of softball here in California and unfortunately I was involved in two shootings at softball complexes. It's one of those things where you just can't turn it off. And so when they say, well, hey, just go relax. The only place I can relax is sitting at home with my little Chihuahua. I can't relax. And even then, you know, there's a gun at the front door, comes to.

[A]

The door, I'm the same way.

[B]

You don't get to relax.

[A]

By the way, what I want now more than anything else is peace and quiet. My dad used to say, what I want, what do you want for Christmas? What do you want for your holiday? Number one, he'd say, I don't want your kids to ruin the, you know what holiday is that? All I want is peace and quiet. Nothing you can buy. And it's funny, the older I get, the more distance I get from police work, the more I demand a removal from drama trauma. He said, she said all that stuff. And I want peace and quiet.

[B]

And my wife always gets onto me because I don't socialize with her family. I love them to death. They're great people, but they're Italians. So when they get together, their way of showing love and affection is they yell at each other. So when I'm there, I just hear a bunch of people yelling and it's. I can't relax. I feel like I'm on a peace disturbance call between two neighbors. They're yelling and screaming at each other. And so I'm the same way.

[A]

I don't.

[B]

I can find that my social activities are way down because I'm like you. I just. I want the peace and quiet. I just want to be able to be here with my own thoughts, prioritize my own brain, and just have that peace and quiet. But you know, that has adverse effects too.

[A]

Recently, I had a radio interview I did, and one of the things was they sent me body camera from an officer involved shooting. And I told them I don't watch those because they trigger me. They get me going. I don't like that word trigger, but it takes me. And for their benefit, I watched the video. The officer was, in my mind, 100% justified in what they did. It's a horrible situation for the officer, the officer's family, the person that was shot, their family, all that stuff. I'm not disputing that. But it took me eight, nine hours to get back to what I call my center.

[B]

Yeah, because we always related. We see a body cam video, we've been around so long that we can relate to something that happened to us. And then all of a sudden, the emotions we felt start coming up and we start remembering it. And so you're right, the word triggers, you know, it's not the best word, but it's the only really good word to describe it is now we're back into that hole and we've got to come out of it again.

[A]

So what do you do?

[B]

I understand that, hey, that's. It's over, it's done. Now I'm safe. When sometimes it's hard.

[A]

What do you do with all that today? I mean, self awareness is good. There's a lot of things I do. But what do you do so that you can maintain.

[B]

The best thing is talk about it. You got to talk about it. If you're not talking about it, it's staying in a compartment in your brain. It's being hidden. I'm not afraid to talk to other officers, new officers, retired officers, and just say, hey, I don't, I don't like doing the old. Well, I used to do this and used to do this. What I like to do is, hey, this is what affected me. And if you haven't been affected by it, you're going to be affected by it. It's going to affect. You don't think it's not. And it's okay. It's okay to be affected. But you need to have some safety measures in place. You know, there's a lot of officers that, you know, they drink or use, you know, sleeping medication. Okay. That's not the best route in the world.

[A]

No.

[B]

You know, figure something else out. It's just, it's more of an education thing. And me, I wasn't a big social guy, so people thought I wasn't a big talker when it comes to this subject. I'll talk about it all day. I want people to know. This is what we went through. We didn't have a safety net. You guys have a safety net. You need to learn how to put it in place and be able to use it because it can destroy marriages, it can destroy family lives, it can destroy careers if you're not.

[A]

Yeah. And ultimately people do really stupid things. And we look back, I knew their career enders and, and the standard joke we had was in Baltimore we'd have police from all over. We'd have guys that came from Ohio that were happily married, had three kids, they were choir boys and within three years they were living in the basement of a house with a stripper and they were divorced and they're drinking copious amounts of alcohol every night. So it's an ongoing thing. And we could talk all day long about the average life expectancy for American police is I think 58. And it's gone up. But when I was in the Academy it was 52. That's how long ago was. And the average life expectancy for American men is like 73. It's a totally different story. So I want to go to really quickly Controlled Response Institute. What do you do there?

[B]

I train local law enforcement and correctional facilities as well as civilians. A lot of. I'm a use of force expert here in California, so I do a lot of use of force. I'm really big on control, controlling your own emotions and not taking your emotions into a circumstance. So I do a lot of scenario based training on every level of force and then a lot of follow up and report writing because I don't think agencies do well enough on report writing and being able to actually sit back and look at yourself and say, could I have done things better? And self aware. And learning from your mistakes. Because you can ask any cop in this country, how did you get where you're at today? Because I made a bunch of mistakes and I learned from them.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

And I mean, my expertise used to call it failing to the top.

[A]

Controlled. Responseinstitute.com Again, the website is controlledresponseinstitute.com Charles Chuck Sherman, thanks for your service and thanks for being a guest on the show. Very much appreciated.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

Of all the radio stations in the United States, there are no other shows like the Law Enforcement Talk Radio show on Facebook. There's only one official page. Do a search on Facebook for the Law Enforcement Talk Radio show and be sure to like the Law Enforcement Talk Radio Show Facebook page. I'd like to thank our guests for coming on the Law Enforcement Talk Radio Show. The Law Enforcement Talk Radio show is a nationally syndicated weekly radio show broadcast on numerous AM&FM radio stations across the country. We're always adding more affiliate stations. If you enjoyed the podcast version of the show, which is always free, please do me a favor and and tell a friend or two or three. I'll be back in just a few days with another episode of Law Enforcement Talk Radio show and Podcast. Until then, this is John J. Wiley. See ya.