From Cop To Sheriff, His Experience With Murderers.

Summary

Podcast Summary: Law Enforcement Talk: True Crime and Trauma Stories
Episode: From Cop to Sheriff, His Experience with Murderers
Host: John "Jay" Wiley
Guest: Thomas Loughran
Date: March 8, 2026
Main Theme
This episode features retired Sheriff Thomas Loughran, reflecting on his 51-year law enforcement career spanning rural New York and Miami, his rise from the youngest officer in the state to sheriff, and his direct experiences investigating violent crimes—including a notorious contract killer and the murder of a 12-year-old girl. Loughran and Wiley explore how policing, trauma, and the justice system have evolved, and how officers deal with the emotional scars of their work.

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Main Discussion Points

1. Law Enforcement Culture: Then and Now

• Early Careers & Training

  • Both Wiley and Loughran recall a time when police culture was defined by camaraderie, toughness, and learning through experience; veterans from Vietnam and Korea brought a "no-nonsense" attitude to their departments ([03:37]).
  • Loughran: “You went to school hard knocks. We had Vietnam people too, as well, and we were like a band of brothers…” ([03:59])
  • Lack of formal support for trauma—camaraderie and after-hours conversations were the main support systems.
  • “We had a case of beer in a parking lot and really bad nights. The famous saying was suck it up, buttercup.” – Wiley ([04:29])

• Evolution of Policing

  • Dramatic changes from ‘92 to present: more bureaucracy, oversight, and broader responsibilities ([05:29]).
  • Importance of discretion in past policing, which is reduced under new reforms ([40:08]).
  • “They've compromised the police. The police are compromised now…they're taking away authority from the discretion of police.” – Loughran ([40:08])

2. From Officer to Sheriff: Power and Politics

• Distinct Role of Sheriff

  • Loughran explains the difference between appointed police chiefs and elected sheriffs.
  • Sheriffs in New York serve independent of state executive authority; they answer to their constituents.
  • “A sheriff is the number one law enforcement officer for each county…you don’t answer to anybody from the county.” ([07:00])

• Handling Crisis and Autonomy

  • Loughran's leadership style: highly involved, supportive, always present during tense operations ([17:10]).
  • “If something goes bad, I'll go down with the ship.” – Loughran ([17:39])
  • Importance of direct leadership and personal accountability in fostering departmental trust.

3. True Crime Stories: Hitmen and Homicide

• Case 1: The Hitman from New Mexico ([12:29]–[16:31])

  • Loughran recounts an investigation of a teenage contract killer from New Mexico, tipped off by America's Most Wanted.
  • The suspect had murdered multiple victims, escaped from jail, and was finally captured after a tense operation with Loughran leading the entry.
  • “There’s no blaze of glory. There’s no gunfights from this guy. All the stuff he talked about was just hocus pocus.” – Wiley ([16:31])
  • Loughran received commendations from the governor and national TV coverage ([22:16])
  • Notoriety of murderers in media vs. reality: “The real hitmen…were few and far between.” – Wiley ([12:15])

• Case 2: The Murder of a 12-Year-Old Girl

  • Loughran details a harrowing investigation into the murder of a babysitter, focusing on the perpetrator’s manipulative behavior and eventual conviction ([25:57]–[33:44]).
  • GPS data from a tracking device placed by the suspect’s wife proved crucial in discrediting his alibi ([32:30]).
  • Emotional toll: “I’ve always said I don’t have PTSD, but I will say this, there’s no penalty that’s bad enough for punishment.” – Loughran ([33:59])
  • Discussion on the insufficiency of “justice” in cases involving child victims ([34:20]–[34:58]).

4. Dealing with Trauma

• Coping with Emotional Wounds

  • Both men reflect on the inevitability of emotional ‘dings’ after decades in law enforcement.
  • “You can’t do a career in law enforcement and not get dinged up emotionally…you’re going to have the wounds to go with it.” – Wiley ([35:30])

• Staying Fit as Survival

  • Both continue to stay physically active decades after active duty as a means of coping with stress and maintaining resilience ([24:07]–[24:29]).

5. Motivation for Writing “When Crisis Meets Courage”

• Legacy and Family
  • Loughran wrote his memoir to document and share his stories with his family—once he stopped moving, he realized the importance of telling his story ([35:51]–[36:27]).
  • “I’ve always kept journals…I’m going to write a book for my family…they didn’t really know everything that I did.” ([36:27])
• Post-9/11 Involvement
  • As president of the NY State Sheriffs’ Association during 9/11, Loughran led terrorism response coordination—underscoring the often unseen roles of police in national security ([36:27]–[37:08], [37:27]–[38:03]).

6. Policing Philosophy and Departmental Culture

• Supporting Officers and Building Trust
  • Leading by example, always being present at briefings and scenes, and promoting personal responsibility and integrity in the ranks ([17:10]–[18:33]).
  • Zero tolerance for corruption and misconduct ([18:51]).
• Pastoral Approach and Local Intelligence
  • Old school “post officer” approach: knowing the community inside and out, gathering information through relationships ([39:20]).

7. Perspective on Reforms and the Current State of Policing

• Challenges include loss of discretion, compromised authority, and a system focused more on numbers than community connection ([40:08]).
• Loughran: “They give you a menu…taking away authority from the discretion of police…” ([40:08]).

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Key Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On old-school policing:
  "We had a case of beer in a parking lot and really bad nights. The famous saying was suck it up, buttercup." – Wiley ([04:29])

• On department culture:
  “I’m the kind of person, I've worked all those ranks, and I've always stayed in touch with the people in the trenches…” – Loughran ([17:10])

• On the reality of confronting killers:
  “Tough talk doesn’t make a tough man. The real hitmen...were few and far between.” – Wiley ([12:15])
  "He would brag about that all the time...He was only 19." – Loughran ([13:01])

• On trauma and justice:
  “There’s no penalty that can, that’s bad enough for punishment.” – Loughran ([34:20])
  "You can’t do a career in law enforcement and not get dinged up emotionally." – Wiley ([35:30])

• On writing his memoir:
  “I just added everything up and I said, you know what? I’m going to write a book for my family...they didn’t really know everything that I did.” – Loughran ([36:27])

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Law Enforcement Culture / Early Career: [03:17]–[05:29]
• Sheriff’s Autonomy & Political Realities: [06:24]–[09:21]
• Hitman Case: [12:29]–[16:49]
• Child Murder Case: [25:57]–[33:59]
• Coping with Trauma: [34:20]–[35:31]
• Motivation for Writing Memoir: [35:51]–[36:27]
• Discussion on Policing Now: [39:20]–[40:47]

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Concluding Thoughts

• The episode paints a raw, nuanced portrait of “life behind the badge”—from chilling criminal confrontations and heartbreaking losses to the internal evolution of a veteran leader.
• Loughran’s reflections emphasize the need for integrity, caring leadership, and an understanding of the deep personal toll exacted by a career in law enforcement.
• The conversation ends with a pointed critique of current policing reforms and a reminder of the importance of community, legacy, and personal connection within the profession.

For further details on Thomas Loughran’s stories, visit 846publishing.com.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

He's a retired law enforcement officer. He was the youngest officer in his state during his illustrious law enforcement career. He investigated a murder, involved a hitman for a gang, plus the murder of a 12 year old. He's here to talk about all that and more. Welcome to the Law Enforcement Talk Radio Show. In the Law Enforcement Talk Radio show, we are joined by special guests talking about their experiences, their realities of investigating crimes, plus those who have experienced horrendous trauma. Police, first responders, military and victims of crimes share their stories. Hi, I'm John J. Wiley. In addition to being a broadcaster, I'm also a retired police sergeant. Be sure to check out our website letradio.com and also like us on Facebook. Search for the Law Enforcement Talk Radio Show. There's a couple ways you can stay in touch and keep informed of what's going on with the Law Enforcement Talk radio show. Number one, go to our website letradio.com sign up for our email newsletter. It's real easy to find. I promise we don't spam you. I send out about one email every two weeks or so and there's also a feature called Broadcast Channels on our Facebook page where we send messages directly to your inbox. Directly to your messenger. Real easy to sign up for. Make sure you like or follow the Law Enforcement Talk Radio Show Facebook page. And up top you'll see Broadcast channels one for free podcast versions of the radio show, another one top post of the day. So you too can stay informed quickly, easily and best of all, like always free contacting us from Florida we have Thomas Loughran on the Law Enforcement Talk Radio Show. Thomas is a retired law enforcement officer, 51 years experience and he is in Florida now. He's author of the book When Crisis meets a sheriff's True Stories of 50 Years of Duty, Danger, Sacrifice and Service from the Everglades to Ground Zero. And his website is 846publishing.com that's 846publishing.com Thomas thanks for your service A B. Thanks for being a guest on the law enforcement talk radio show. Both very much appreciated.

[C]

Thank you.

[B]

It's good to have you here, Thomas. We're going to talk about a couple things. By the way, how long have you been retired from policing?

[C]

2 and a half years.

[B]

So you're still relatively new with this whole retirement thing.

[C]

Yes, I am.

[B]

You're a rookie. I've been retired since 92. I got her retired young.

[C]

Well, congratulations on that. That's when I started being the sheriff of a county.

[B]

My things have changed quite a bit since 92, haven't they?

[C]

Oh, yes, they have.

[B]

We'll talk about some of that in a moment. Your career, you did a total of 51 years in law enforcement and you were the youngest ever officer in the state of New York. How old were you when you did that?

[C]

I was age 20 and I was

[B]

21 when I went in the academy and 22 when I graduated. I thought I was young. The truth is I thought I knew everything. I didn't know squat.

[C]

Well, I can relate to that. Same here. I got educated as I went. I was really young.

[B]

Yeah, our careers kind of overlapped, but I'd say this. I got trained by. We had a lot of Vietnam combat veteran police. We had a few command staff. They're Korean War veteran police, and they had. They didn't. They didn't pull any punches. They were quite abrupt of what they told you.

[C]

Oh, yeah. It was different times then. In fact, you went to school hard knocks. We had Vietnam people too, as well, and we were like a band of brothers, though. Great respect for everybody.

[B]

We had a thing too, and it never happened with me, but where they would settle disagreements in the parking garage of the district stations. And they're like, yeah, just meet me there and we'll. We'll talk about it then.

[C]

That sounds familiar.

[B]

It was a different time. And back then. Maybe you can wax poetic and go back on in history a little bit back then and Baltimore had a different lingo, different slang. New York, Florida all uses different languages, different slang. But there was a saying that they had. We didn't have peer support teams. We didn't have critical incidents. We didn't have. We had a case of beer in a parking lot and really bad nights. And the famous saying that a lot of people had was suck it up, buttercup. Your Baltimore police, you can lick your wounds later on.

[C]

Well, we didn't have beer in the parking lot, but I can tell you that we had to suck it up. And you had to. You had to find your own way. And how we, how I address that. I would talk to the officers that I work with and you'd end up start laughing and so forth and you'd have a maybe better way to handle that call or a safer way. And that's how we did things early on.

[B]

Did you see a big change in your career from 92 to when you retired two years ago?

[C]

Yes, yes, because I was in. I got the opportunity to work at other agencies. It was high crime and much more than where I was in rural county there. Miami was one of them. And when I became sheriff is a whole new world. And I got introduced to things that I never thought I would. Sometimes the real evil people are the ones sitting in a suit and in a powerful job, you know.

[B]

Oh yeah.

[C]

And I could tell you that everything that happened to me in my early years really shaped me for who I am now. And the cadet program was great. When I first became an officer, I found my niche in investigations. I just, I just worked all the time serving cases and that was the biggest reward I could get. And that's how it all started with me.

[B]

So when you were a sheriff at one point, was that in New York state or was that in Florida?

[C]

That was in New York state. And that was. I got elected on and took Office January of 1992.

[B]

Wow. That was. And you said it was a real eye opening experience for you.

[C]

Oh, yeah. Because I never, you know, I never mingled with all the governors and the top politicians, state, federal, all that. So I learned how to survive wherever I went. And that was one place that the good thing about being sheriff versus you were in Baltimore with a chief. The chief has to answer to the mayor.

[B]

Right.

[C]

Maybe politics involved. The sheriffs don't have to answer to the governor. The sheriffs are not in New York are. They get their budgets from the county, but you don't answer to anybody from the county. And the sheriffs in New York state are the number one vote getters. So whenever I go to a table with a budget, the public's behind me. And that was really. That's the best thing about being a sheriff. Because you don't like. During COVID we didn't arrest people for not having their masks on and all that stuff they did in some areas. So that's the difference right there. So I was able to take control of our entire agency and we were very successful. And I was elected four term, four or five years term or five four year terms. Excuse me.

[B]

Well, congratulations on a good career. And by the way just personally, I don't have a lot of respect, a lot of admiration when I did when I was younger for police chiefs and police commissioners or whatever terms you want to use. Sheriff's a different story that the police chiefs, the commissioners, all those people, the directors, they're appointed by mayors and city managers. And they quite often are very political beings. And quite often, especially nowadays, they seem to forgot what policing was all about.

[C]

Oh, there's no question the country's a mess.

[B]

And I remember just being. And rarely do I get political. But you brought up something about COVID and I watched police locking people up for Covid violations. And I'm like, what has happened to this country?

[C]

Well, in New York State, the New York State sheriffs under the New York State Sheriff association, that's our, that's our. Where we have our meetings and lobbying, all that stuff. They all came together in New York State, refused to cooperate with and the governor actually threatened to remove sheriffs. They can't remove us. They don't have the authority to remove us.

[B]

So

[C]

that's the good thing about being elected sheriff. But the buck stops with you, right? A sheriff is the number one law enforcement officer for each county. And if something you get good and bad of everything, including sheriffs. But I was able to get a lot done because of that authority and I didn't have to bow down to any politicians.

[B]

With a short break, we're talking with Thomas Loughran. Thomas is retired law enforcement officer, about 51 years of law enforcement experience. He was the youngest ever officer in the state of New York at 20. When we return, we're going to talk about a murder involving a hitman. A hitman which is very rare. And he wrote the book When Crisis Meets the Sheriff's true stories of 50 years of duty, Dangerous Sacrifice and Service From Neverglades of Ground Zero. His website is 846publishing.com. That's 846publishing.com. Of all the radio stations in the United States, there are no other shows like the law enforcement talk radio show on Facebook. There's only one page. Do a search on Facebook for the law enforcement talk radio show and be sure to like the law enforcement talk radio show Facebook page. This is law enforcement talk radio show. We're going to take a short break. I promise you we will be right back.

[C]

Someone asked, what's the catch? What's the cost? There is no cost for anything on the law enforcement talk radio show and podcast website. Letradio.com letradio.com Again, that's letradio.com if you're

[A]

a maintenance supervisor at a manufacturing facility and your machinery isn't working right, Grainger knows you need to understand what's wrong as soon as possible. So when a conveyor motor falters, Grainger offers diagnostic tools like calibration kits and multimeters to help you identify and fix the problem. With Grainger, you can be confident you have everything you need to keep your facility running smoothly. Call 1-800-granger. Click granger.com or just stop by Granger for the ones who get it done.

[B]

Return conversation with Thomas Laufern on the law enforcement talk radio show. Contact is from Florida. He is retired law enforcement officer, 50, 51 years of law enforcement experience. He was the youngest ever officer in the state of New York at 20. He wrote the book When Crisis Meets Courage. A Sheriff's true stories of 50 years of duty, Danger, Sacrifice and Service from the Everglades. The Ground Zero and a website get more details about the book is 846publishing.com that's 846publishing.com. One of the things that I almost never talk about policing period, but I just had coworkers at the radio station asked me a. About a case that's going on. And one of the things that I in my career in Baltimore came across was that and I always say this, you know, tough talk doesn't make a tough man. And lots of people talk a big game when they're walking away. But the real hitmen, the real murderers, they were few and far between. I did get into scrap with someone who supposedly murdered seven people. We couldn't charge him, but he was, he was crying when it was over with. It was not a fun thing. You had a situation where you investigated a murder that involved the hitman, didn't you?

[C]

Yeah. Yes. He was out of New Mexico and he traveled to our county. Now his office crimes were in Albuquerque, New Mexico. And he came to our state. And believe it or not, at nine o' clock in the morning when I was just got to the office, I got a call from American America's Most Wanted TV show. And they had, they had information on this who was from Albuquerque, from here.

[B]

Now we're not gonna put these names in. I'll bleep the names out, okay?

[C]

Oh, okay. Yeah, I got a phone call from America's Most Wanted. Of course I had to confirm it was them and it was. But they had information of a suspect, a gang member that's a hitman. That's in our. It's in my Jurisdiction in the town of Sherburne. That was in a living with a girl up there and she was. And how the American Most Wanted got involved. The girl that he was staying with mother watched America's Most Wanted on TV and saw her new boyfriend on that show. So that the American Most Wanted air. Even the. Even the governor was on there being interviewed. He was such. So bad. And the background of this person that I got from the detectives out of Albuquerque, New Mexico was he actually made a hit on a high school football star on the highway and killed him and shot him in the head. Killed him. And then he went on a 121 day crime spree all through the area. And it took a lot to catch him and find him. And they locked him up in the Bernadilla Jail in Albuquerque, New Mexico. And a few days later he escaped. It was like a class D movie. He used 65ft of sheets and went down a wall and somehow escaped from that jail. So nevertheless, he was in my county. So I called my staff. We had well trained people, narcotic people upset undercover up there to make sure nobody's going in and out of the apartment. And then we went up there. I wanted to. Originally I wanted to take him down outside because the detective says he will never go out. He'll never give up. He'll go out in a blaze. In fact, he would brag about that all the time. This kid, he was only 19. So we waited and waited. And the mom kept calling her at the. And he was getting suspicious. And it got back to me through America's Most Wanted that he'd already threatened to kill her if she turned her men. So the mother was freaking out. She was at a different location. We don't know where, but. So I finally decided we're going to do an entry. I had my first team with me anyway and I've done lots of entries. So we did entry on this apartment. After we got all the plans, I tried to evacuate a couple in case a fire shooting started. So I led the charge. But these people are well trained. And we went in. It's not a big apartment, but you went in the kitchen. She was there, she got one officer was with her. We cleared the living room. This is in seconds. They cleared the bedroom and we cleared the bathroom. And I know he was there, but we didn't see him. So about three seconds later I saw the bathroom door which opened up into a corner. He was behind that door. So I hit that door as hard as I could hit him. Because I figured he was armed. And anyway, while we were pulling, me and the lieutenant was pulling him down to the floor, he kicked the door and hit a door jamb. And one of my officers was trying to get in. His gun discharged and went right into the bathroom wall. So we got him down and, you know, he'd had enough because he had a knot on his head from the door. But we got him under control and that was it.

[B]

There's no blaze of glory. There's no gunfights from this guy. All the stuff he talked about was just hocus pocus.

[C]

Well, no, I think. I think what happened, he was up here in our area long enough where he got laid back. That's what I think.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

And there was guns there, but he couldn't get to, in fact, fast enough.

[B]

Part of the thing that. And you were the sheriff then. Was that the situation?

[C]

Oh, yes, I was a sheriff.

[B]

I. And I remember doing raids as a sergeant, and it's a different thing because you're responsible for your people's behavior and responsible for their welfare as well. And I'm sure that entered your mind.

[C]

Well, no, I. I'm the kind of person, I've worked all those ranks, and I've always stayed in touch with the people in the trenches, and I don't care. Even when everybody got trained, after we trained the whole department, they were good at what they did. I would come to the briefings, and the real bad was I would go to the scenes and they just, it felt. Made them feel comfortable, but they really, in many times, they didn't need me. It just, you know that I used to say, hey, if something goes bad, I'll go down with the ship.

[B]

Right? That's right. And that was much appreciated by me because quite often when we did really scary things, command staff was not around.

[C]

Yeah, no, you're absolutely right about that. I'm just not that guy.

[B]

No, and that's. I'm not saying that was the case with everybody. We had a few that broke the mold, that were great. They would back you up, they would show up. But they were few and far between. The vast majority, the overwhelming majority, were worthless.

[C]

Well, the bigger the department is not better.

[B]

Right.

[C]

I saw that in Miami, and I see it everywhere. I saw it in my department. These people were almost incompetent.

[B]

Right.

[C]

They caused more problems than they're worth, but that's life. But I've always been so proud of my staff and so forth all the time. I've worked wherever I went. I always talk to everybody. Even I go around, talk to everybody.

[B]

Right.

[C]

And just making sure that, and I would always show them my support. I, you know, I've been on the bad end of getting blamed for something I didn't do because I don't want to get themselves in trouble. And they're usually officers, you know, I mean seniors. And I just never did that. And I didn't allow that in my department either.

[B]

No. And there was a main thing, there are two things that we didn't tolerate. We didn't, if you did something wrong, you took the blame for it. You didn't, you didn't pass blame on someone else, number one, number two, there was no such thing as corruption. That was unheard of. We didn't tolerate it. We didn't want it, we didn't want it anywhere near us. And by the way, if someone had a reputation being heavy handed with their prisoners, they were not welcome. On your calls we're talking with Thomas Laufern. He's retired law enforcement officer, 51 years experience. He's authored book when crisis meets courage. Sheriff's true stories of 50 years of duty, Dangerous sacrifice and service from the Everglades of Ground Zero. And a website, you get more details. 846Publishing. That's 846publishing.com. You can find us on Facebook, look for and like the law enforcement talk radio show Facebook page. This is law enforcement talk radio show. Got so much more to talk about. Don't go anywhere. We'll be right back. How would you like to improve your health? Let's get healthy tips you can use today for free. They don't require any money at all. You can download a free ebook 15 tips to improve your health@Let Healthy.com that's LetHealthy.com again it's Let Healthy.com and let's get healthy for free. During conversation with Thomas Loughlin. He is retired law enforcement officer, 51 years experience. He was the youngest ever officer in state of New York at the age of 20. And he wrote the book When Crisis meets Courage. A Sheriff's true stories of 50 years of duty, Danger, sacrifice and service from the Everglades of Ground Zero. And a website to get more details about the book is 846publishing.com it's 846publishing.com before we go to the next story, I gotta ask you this Hitman, we watch Hollywood and they're everywhere. It's like there's a almost as many hitman movies as their CIA movies and most of them are wrong. And by the Way. Every police kind of thing I see, movie, television, show, whatever, they usually get it far wrong, and they just drive me crazy. But policing itself, it was very rare to encounter an actual hitman. Were you shocked when you get the call from America's Most Wanted?

[C]

Well, that's never happened to me before. And I just. Yeah, I was pretty. Pretty. I was. I don't. I remember never shocked, but it was different. And I had to digest all this. And I. And this guy, this is his background. I mean, he went on armed robberies, carjacking, burglaries. He was a satanic worshiper. I mean, this guy is probably the worst person you're going to get.

[B]

Right?

[C]

He didn't. Just didn't care. And we just got him. We got him. We got him away from his gun. Nothing without his guns.

[B]

Most of the people I met in my career, and, by the way, the vast majority of people I met in my police career, we didn't arrest. And even when they committed crimes, we had a thing called discretion. We didn't always arrest everybody. But even when you did have to arrest someone, 90, I'd say 98% of those people would never give you a moment's harm. Never. Never really were difficult. It was a very small percentage of career criminals. This guy sounded like he was a violent career criminal.

[C]

Oh, absolutely. He had a tremendous record, even at age 19. I know he went to prison. I don't know if he's still in there or not. But the other thing I wanted to mention about this, we got combinations from the governor, and also we were on the next segment of America's Most Wanted. That was kind of neat, watching our agency and our department on America's Most Wanted. And not only that, John Walsh used to come to our sheriff's conferences up in New York. So I actually got to know him pretty well.

[B]

Did you ever think you'd be in a position. What county were you sheriff of?

[C]

I was. I was sheriff of Chenango county, and that's located between Binghamton and, you know, southwest of Syracuse.

[B]

And agencies like that. Yeah, we think nothing bad happens in agents like that, but they do.

[C]

Oh, yes, they do. And we had 900 square miles, and you. We had single units except for the midnight shift. And you very seldom had backup that would get there in time. So, you know, you had. You had to really take care of yourself.

[B]

That was a question I had, because in my experience, I was city police in Baltimore. Backup was minutes away. But quite often with these agencies, I thought they had it made sitting in the Shade, drinking grape, Kool Aid, all that stuff. They're by themselves and. And backwater could be 20, 30 minutes away.

[C]

Oh, no, that's us. That was us. And we used to have a lieutenant says, one man, one fight. One man, one fight. You didn't see him out there.

[B]

Yeah, of course not. Yeah.

[C]

But I'll tell you something. I did. When I. When I. When I graduated from high school, I. I was 6 foot, 6 foot 2. I played all the sports and stuff, but I was only 160 pounds. So I started lifting in 1971, and I still work out today. I worked out all these five decades and I got myself up to about 210.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And that's how I survived.

[B]

That's what I did, too. And I still do. And the reason why I do it today, and I'm in my late 60s now, I go to the gym three times a week. I work out hard, I work out heavy, I pray a lot, I meditate. I'm not there to socialize. But bulk and strength was something you needed in police work.

[C]

Absolutely. Then you had to learn how to deal with fear. With fear. And it goes in every scrape you have, every time you survive. After a while, I'm telling you, I'm the luckiest person that I know. I've had plenty of times where it could have ended bad. And I always walked away. And they went to jail and I went home.

[B]

And I'll be honest with you, I don't know why. I used to think when I was on a job, I'm totally different than I was now was then, but I used to think that nothing bad will happen to me because, you know, I'm just that good. Well, it turns out a lot of people that were good police, really good police, didn't make it.

[C]

No, I know that. That's exactly right. I've lost a lot of friends, a lot of people. The one. Did you. I had an analogy real quick when I. When I really got seasoned as a cop, that you're in a battle, you're. You're sit. You're standing on a battlefield, and it's good versus evil, right versus wrong. And then when you really think about this, that kind of bet that's been forever.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And when they, when they say to get rid of the jails and let them all out, you know, there's a reason why you have jails and there's, there's an evil. There's a percentage of evil people out there just based on their actions.

[B]

Yes, they are. And by the Way that hitman was perfect example. Very rare, but they happen. You also were involved in a homicide investigation. Investigation where a 12 year old girl was murdered. Can you talk about that?

[C]

Yes, I can. Unfortunately, is involved in a lot of murder cases, but this one was, this was. This is bad for me. Children get killed. But this, this is over in my west side of my county, which. Otsilic, it's called Otsilic. And there was a. There was a man there that had a house in Otsilic, but he actually was out of Jersey somewhere down there, him and his wife and they had a kid and they have gatherings in the summer there where they all won't have beers and this and that, blah, blah. This guy here that I'm talking about, he already spent 10 years in Arizona jail for drug trafficking. So he was there and he and his wife, his wife and him were having problems because she suspected he was going out on her and blah, blah, blah. So they had a fight at this party and she went home. And so what he did, he went to his neighbors, which was about 3/4 down the road, and asked them if maybe his wife could babysit the kids because he wanted to make up with his wife and she wasn't available. So she says, well, do you think that maybe Cheyenne, she's 12 years old, she's never babysitted before, gorgeous little girl. And he says, you think that she could. And the father says, okay, because he knew him. He says, I don't want you drinking or anything else with her in the vehicle. And I want her home, you know, early, early hour. Well, she never came home. And what happened was he went back, he went back to that house. And the wife says, well, I'm not going anywhere with you. You take her back home where she belongs. Well, he didn't take her back home. He went up on a back road and he constructed this. I mean, it got dark. I mean, next thing you know, he shows up at a hospital 30 miles away with her dead in the truck, laying on the floorboard on the driver's side where he had to. He was talking about how he had to try to keep her feet off her body and she was, was dead. So he come up with a story. My officers went up there, took him in and detectives came in and I came in later on and he had this whole story, he was cooperating, but he was. It didn't make any common sense at all. He was saying that he took her up there to go see the horses because she likes horses. And then he was doing a three point turn with his truck and he accidentally ran over and killed her. So he gave us the times and all this stuff and he said he wasn't familiar with the area, we knew he was. But he drove all over the place, all these different towns for hours and he finally, at five o' clock in the morning he drives into an emergency room and this dead girl is in truck. I mean it was terrible. I'm not even going to explain. So our officers got, we got involved. I sent crime scenes people over and he told us where she died and it was a bloody mess over there. It's horrible.

[B]

And then I still to this day struggle with crimes against children and even preteens early teens. Doesn't matter. We're talking with Thomas Lougheren. He's retired law enforcement officer, 51 years experience. He was the youngest ever law enforcement officer in the state of New York. He wrote the book When Crisis Beats Courage. A Sheriff's true stories of 50 years of duty, Dangerous Sacrifice and Service from the Everglades to Ground Zero. And a website to get more details about the book. It's 846publishing.com that's 846publishing.com. Return to our conversation with Thomas in just a few moments. This is law enforcement talk radio show. Don't go anywhere. We'll be right back. If you're on the Clubhouse drop in audio chat app, be sure to look for me and follow me. My name's John the letter J. Wiley W I L E y. You can also search for. That's John J. Wiley W I L E Y T radio show on the Clubhouse drop In audio chat app.

[A]

This is the story of the 1. As a maintenance tech at a university, he knows ordering from multiple suppliers takes time away from keeping their original arena up and running. That's why he counts on Granger to get everything he needs from lighting and H vac parts to plumbing supplies all in one place. And with fast dependable delivery, he's stocked and ready for the next tip off. Call 1-800-granger. Click granger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done.

[B]

Deterrent conversation with Thomas Loughlin on the law enforcement talk radio show. Thomas is retired law enforcement officer of 51 years experience. He was the youngest ever officer in the state of New York at the age of 20. By the way, I can barely remember being 20 years old. It happened, but I don't remember it. It's a long time ago. He's author of the book When Crisis Meets Courage. The Sheriff's true stories of 50 years of duty, Danger, Sacrifice and Service from the Everglades of Ground Zero. You can get more details about the book and other [e-mail]. It's 846publishing.com, that is the website. Thomas. I want to go back to the story about the 12 year old being murdered. Let me see if I get this right. She was a babysitter and the guy wound up turning on her. And I don't want you to go on details, but he came up with this elaborate story and it usually starts with murderers as I didn't mean to kill him as an accident.

[C]

Oh, that's correct. And we, we couldn't charge him with murder because quite frankly it hit him with a car and so forth. Charged her with a reckless endangered first, which felony. So we kept him under tow and when he was at the office with the detectives, he tried to throw away this electrical component that we really didn't know what it was at the time. And they fixed that out of a little garbage can because they saw him do that and we didn't know what that was. Well, that ended up being the best witness we could ever have. We worked on it for several days. And then somebody that knew what they were talking about says that's a GPS monitor.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And so we got a hold of the wife. The wife put that in his truck. So. So quite frankly, when we got her app and her computer, we saw exactly where he went, what time, how fast and everything. He lied about all the times and everything. What. He was parked at the back of a abandoned house here that we'd already been there. And we retrieved a needle and we also mashed up the tire tracks later on with his truck. So he was there for three hours according to the gps. And with that girl, that little girl. And, and that, that the needle had his DNA on it. Cocaine. And also you could see where. When he left there and he took her right. Like it's going toward the girl's house down there. That's the way they came in. And he moved around long pretty good. Well, you can see where the truck veers off the roadway and up the bank and that's where he killed her. He intentionally drove off that bank and killed that little girl. No question.

[B]

And what was the final outcome with this guy?

[C]

Well, he was convicted and he was sentenced 25 to life.

[B]

And people would use the term justice was served. And I'm not a big believer in justice. Yeah, they're incarcerated, whatever it might be. But do you still carry around nightmares of that incident and their family members as well?

[C]

You know, I've always said I don't have PTSD and stuff like that. Somehow I could cope with this stuff because I do everything I can to make it right. But I will say this, I've seen so many crimes that I've been involved in. There's no penalty that can, that's bad enough for punishment.

[B]

No. And by the way, when they say that, the biggest misconception is, well, at least there was closure and they got justice. Well, no, it doesn't bring their person back to life. There is no justice. Justice is only incarceration. And I'm not, I'm not negative incarceration. A lot of people, I'll be honest with you, a lot of these people, their lifers need to be executed. I'm just saying this right now. People can take what they want. They're, they're with your kids, they are with other kids or low level offenders. They're with people who work in prisons and a lot of them get commuted sentences and released in public and they commit other more violent crimes.

[C]

They gotta go, oh, I agree.

[B]

And I always say this, the cure for a lot of these ills is a 25 cent bullet right behind the ear. That's it. We don't have to have millions and millions of dollars, but that's neither here nor there. I want to go into this and by the way, my personal belief is you can't do a career in law enforcement and not get dinged up emotionally. You may not be as bad as some other people, but you've got your, you did your time, you're going to have the wounds to go with it. Emotional, physical, mental as well.

[C]

Oh, absolutely.

[B]

And there's a reason why they call that a young person's game. Because the older you get, the more that he experience and the less tolerant I'll become. I want to transition. You wrote this book, When Crisis Meets Courage. A Sheriff's true stories of 50 years of duty, Danger, Sacrifice and Service From Neverglades to Ground Zero. What prompted you to do this?

[C]

Well, I've always been on the goal. I've always been moving fast for decades. And I spent time with my family and this, that took care of them. All of a sudden I stopped and I, I. All my life I've kept journals. I've got the cases, I got the media, I got everything. And I said, what am I going to do with this when I die, right. I'm in my 70s. So I says you know, and I started, I just added everything up and I said, you know what? I'm going to write a. I'm going to write a book for my family. They were always proud of what I was doing, but they didn't really know everything that I did.

[B]

No.

[C]

So that's why I did it. And it stopped there, but it just is taken right off and I will. I got another thing I would like to discuss here if I could or mention it. I was the president of the New York State Sheriff's association when we got attacked on 9 11. So that, that threw me in terrorism. And I really. And I. Part of the books even I. There's a whole section on that how we, all the departments and police departments, state police chiefs and sheriffs came together and we had an army that was working terrorism for a long, long time in New York. It was pretty impressive what we, what

[B]

we were doing and still is. And by the way, I had a guest on the show a long time ago. He's retired NYPD and part of his tour of duty is he was assigned to Afghanistan. And people don't realize that American police are quite often doing a lot of things that people don't realize.

[C]

Well, you know, I didn't know that either. But I found out when I got involved in terrorism. I served on the State original counterterrorism board. And that's when I learned about New York city. They have 37,000 cops then and they had cops in all these countries and they were getting better intel on terrorist movement than our feds.

[B]

Yep.

[C]

Because we, we had everybody in New York City, any department, they're all there on these meetings, including the FBI, sometimes the CIA. And the intel was coming from the police department.

[B]

Yep. I don't doubt that at all. I really don't. Because. And by the way, we talked earlier in the conversation about being trained by Vietnam combat veterans. They were some old school, old fashioned police and they believed in gumshoe stuff. They believed in a thing called respect. You always show respect. They taught me that early on, no matter where you are, especially in someone's house, until they change the tone of the conversation and then there's no backing down. But they could go out and they could talk to people. They were on a post for 25 years and they would come back with information, they come back with details.

[C]

Right. Impressive.

[B]

And we don't, we don't seem to see that too much. I know what happens. I know there are police like that, but it just seems to me, and maybe I'm Preaching a choir here, but it seems to me that we ask far more of our police and we've gotten away from their basic function, and now it's more about dollars and cents and what the coverage rate is and all this other stuff. How much territory can one guy cover? Guy means men and women, and it's not about. I remember my sergeant saying, you're now post officer. This is your post. If I pull you up and I point to a guy and you don't know who he is, you don't know where he lives, you haven't done your job, and I'm getting someone else that does.

[C]

Oh, you and I speak the same language.

[B]

That's the way it was. And by the way, I was taught that because if they ran from you, you'd wind up on their porch.

[C]

You're right.

[B]

There was none of this stuff about you have to shoot people. There was none of that stuff. It was like you wound up cutting them. So the book is called When Crisis Meets a Sheriff's true stories of 50 years of duty, Danger, Sacrifice and Service From Every Glaze to Ground Zero. And by the way, my hat's off to a lot of people with the Ground Zero stuff. We'll talk about another time. The website we can get more detail about the book is 846-publishing. That's 846publishing.com. In closing, Thomas, this is where you get to pontificate a little bit. What's the biggest change you see in law enforcement today compared to when you were a rookie?

[C]

They've compromised the police. The police are compromised now. I'll use New York, for example. They with all these bail reform states. What they do is they give you a menu. They pass a law that actually they're taking away authority from the discretion of police. If you, for example, if you committed robbery without a gun, you can't might go to lockup for one day. Then the judge has to let them out. You got to give him a ticket is what you got to do. That's basically what you have, the discretion.

[B]

We're talking with. Thomas, by the way, thanks for your service and thanks for being guests on a law enforcement talk radio show. Both very much appreciated.

[C]

My pleasure. Pleasure to be here.

[B]

Of all the radio stations in the United States, there are no other shows like the. The law enforcement talk radio show. And on Facebook, there's only one official page. Do a search on Facebook for the law enforcement talk radio show and be sure to like the law enforcement talk radio show Facebook page. I'd like to thank our guests for coming on the Law Enforcement Talk Radio show the Law Enforcement Talk Radio show is a nationally syndicated weekly radio show broadcast on numerous AM&FM radio stations across the country. Country we're always adding more affiliate stations. If you enjoyed the podcast version of the show, which is always free, please do me a favor and tell a friend or two or three. I'll be back in just a few days with another episode of the Law Enforcement Talk Raider show and podcast. Until then, this is John J. Wiley. See ya.

[A]

This is the story of the One As a maintenance tech at a university, he knows ordering from multiple suppliers takes time away from keeping their arena up and running. That's why he counts on Grainger to get everything he needs, from lighting and H vac parts to plumbing supplies, all in one place. And with fast, dependable delivery, he's stocked and ready for the next tip off. Call 1-800-GRAINGER click granger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done.

[C]

If you like the show, please take a moment to rate, review and subscribe. It really does help the show to grow. Thank you for listening.