Not So Obvious Police Calls

Summary

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Law Enforcement Talk: True Crime and Trauma Stories

Episode Title: Not So Obvious Police Calls

Host: John "Jay" Wiley
Guest: Dave Goldstein (Retired NYPD, former LAPD & university police officer, Author of Another Body in Brooklyn)
Date: February 11, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, host John J. Wiley sits down with retired NYPD officer Dave Goldstein to explore the real, unvarnished stories behind police work—focusing especially on cases that are “not so obvious” from the outside. The pair discuss high-stakes situations involving ambiguous evidence, child abduction, and domestic violence, challenging the simplified portrayals often seen in the media and underscoring how real police work is fraught with unpredictability, judgment calls, and trauma. Listeners are offered a window into the complicated, human side of law enforcement, with firsthand accounts from the streets of New York and Los Angeles.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Realities of Police Discretion and Evidence (02:19–08:09)

• Discretion in Policing:
  Both host and guest highlight how officers often must use discretion, not arresting everyone they technically could. Time, evidence, and the specific circumstances guide those choices, despite public misconceptions.

  • Quote (Jay Wiley, 02:21):
    “So many times we gave people breaks. We didn’t arrest everybody… You gave a lot of breaks, used this word called discretion… Without evidence, forget about it.”

• Complex Domestic Calls:
  Domestic incidents rarely have clear-cut evidence or perpetrators. Officers need to assess, gather whatever evidence is available, and often must navigate changing stories and emotional volatility.

  • Quote (Dave Goldstein, 02:52):
    “Domestics are tough… you have to go where the evidence leads you. Everything from the initial phone call to when you get there, to interviewing both parties, to looking for… video footage… At the end of the day, you do the best job you can.”

• The Unseen Side of Use of Force:
  Dave recounts injuries and unpredictable altercations, including suspects attempting to disarm him, being bitten, and the limitations on what police can do physically compared to suspects.

  • Quote (Dave Goldstein, 08:09):
    “When you’re going hands on with people, things happen. They can do anything they want to you… Police have rules, so it’s not really a fair fight.”

Public Perception vs. Police Reality (04:33–07:09; 09:18–10:10)

• Body Cameras and Scrutiny:
  Dave notes that while more video footage increases scrutiny, it rarely captures the whole context, leading to premature judgments.

  • Quote (Dave Goldstein, 05:31):
    “Sometimes people only see a small portion… and they don’t see the entire situation.”

• Media Representation and Hindsight:
  Jay highlights how hindsight makes second-guessing easier, but foresight in policing is often impossible.

  • Quote (Jay Wiley, 11:15):
    “Hindsight is 20/20, but foresight in police work often doesn’t exist at all.”

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Main Case Stories

1. Child Abduction & Investigation Breakdown (12:13–20:04)

Incident Details:

• A call comes in about a male attempting to abduct an 11-year-old girl in Bed-Stuy, Brooklyn. Dave and his team arrest the suspect (a known criminal), but learn he’d been detained the previous day by other officers who let him go because the mother wasn’t present. This mishandling creates complications for the prosecution.

  • Quote (Dave Goldstein, 13:00):
    “She informs us that the day before, a male had been following an 11-year-old girl… catcalling her and said, ‘Hey, come here, I want to talk to you. Come on, let’s go somewhere.’”

Lessons & Insights:

• Investigative Diligence Matters:
  When initial responding officers don’t thoroughly investigate—or misunderstand requirements (such as waiting for a parent)—it can undermine future prosecution.

  • Quote (Dave Goldstein, 17:14):
    “The fact that the cops had let him go the day before, it caused a lot of problems… that cop becomes a witness for the defense.”

• Final Disposition:
  The suspect received minimal punishment due to these lapses, despite a history of criminality and numerous witnesses.

  • Quote (Dave Goldstein, 19:32):
    “He got off with a slap on the wrist...one of the cops wound up being a witness for the defense and the DA’s office was not happy.”

2. The Nuances of Domestic Violence and Child Custody Cases (20:56–29:55)

Police Response to Domestics:

• Jay describes the evolution of domestic violence response: where police used to refer complainants to court, policy now mandates arrest if there is evidence or risk.

• Dave confirms the complexity, especially when custody agreements are civil (unless a court order exists).

  • Quote (Dave Goldstein, 22:05):
    “A lot of times, especially when kids are involved… it’s like you said, he said, she said. Sometimes it is, there’s a lot of gray and you really have to… just go where the evidence takes you.”

Child in Danger Scenario (25:32–29:55)

• A mother reports a beating and abduction by her child’s father, who threatens never to let her see the child again. The situation requires both urgent action and careful navigation to ensure the child’s safety.

  • Quote (Dave Goldstein, 26:44):
    “If the kid is potentially in danger as a result, it still need—you still need to get that kid back quickly… that’s not even the main thing. The main thing is making sure that kid’s alright.”

• Tactics and Humanity:
  The account details the tension of confronting a potentially violent suspect holding a child, balancing the need for force with the utmost care for the child's safety.

  • Quote (Dave Goldstein, 29:08):
    “As the cop, you have to be the adult in the situation… even if I was being accused, my first thought would be my kid. I would want someone to hold the kid, get them to a safe place.”

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Use of Force: The Unseen Reality (31:25–36:54)

• Escalation Signs and Officer Judgment:
  Dave and Jay discuss the subtle cues—fist-clenching, resisting touch—that reliably predict an imminent fight. The public and cameras rarely capture these moments, leading to misunderstandings when force is used.

  • Quote (Dave Goldstein, 33:06):
    “If you go to grab someone and they push your hand away, that means he’s gonna fight you... 100% of the time.”

• Frequency and Nature of Violence:
  Policing, especially in cities like New York, involves routine, sometimes violent encounters—not only during arrests but also with emotionally disturbed persons, and even in non-criminal situations.

  • Quote (Jay Wiley, 35:22):
    “I was in more car accidents you can shake a stick at. And more brawls than I can remember… And I don’t think I was unique.”

• Importance of De-Escalation and Decisiveness:
  Both agree that the goal is to end force as quickly as possible, and to honestly document what occurred.

  • Quote (Jay Wiley, 37:35):
    “If you have to use force, it’s like making sausage. Everybody loves, but no one wants to see it being made.”

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On Second-Guessing Police Decisions:
  (Jay Wiley, 11:15)
  “Hindsight is 20/20, but foresight in police work often doesn’t exist at all.”

• On Evidence and Testimony:
  (Dave Goldstein, 18:20)
  “Cops can testify to something somebody told them unless it’s an admission or a confession… So you have to have corroborating evidence.”

• On Taking Responsibility:
  (Jay Wiley, 25:01)
  “Make a mistake doing your job. Don’t lie, do not justify… If you had to hit him, say you hit him, here’s the reason why you hit him.”

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Guest’s Book: Another Body in Brooklyn (38:05–40:51)

• Another Body in Brooklyn is a fiction novel drawn from Dave’s real-life experiences, following a young sergeant through the chaos and gray areas of police work in Bed-Stuy, Brooklyn. The book emphasizes humanity, ethical complexity, and coping with trauma—all grounded in policing realities.
  • Quote (Dave Goldstein, 38:05):
    “At the end of the day, it’s about caring about your job, caring about people, treating people like they’re human beings, even though… we want to think otherwise, but treating people like they’re human beings and just doing the job to the best of your ability.”

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Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• 02:19 – Discretion and realities of police work
• 04:33 – Career timeline and changes in policing
• 08:09 – Unpredictability and physical danger in law enforcement
• 12:13 – Child abduction case and investigative errors
• 17:14 – How bad policing decisions affect prosecution
• 20:56 – The evolving handling of domestic violence calls
• 25:32 – Child custody/danger scenario and officer response
• 33:06 – Behavioral cues indicating suspects about to fight
• 36:54 – Mental toll and the frequency of violence
• 38:05 – Description and themes of Another Body in Brooklyn
• 40:27 – Guest’s website and contact

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Tone & Style

The conversation is straightforward, honest, sometimes blunt, and steeped in the realities of street-level police work. Both host and guest avoid sensationalism, instead emphasizing “just the facts” while not shying away from the emotional challenges and consequences of trauma in the field. There is camaraderie, a touch of black humor, and a constant focus on the human cost—both for victims and for officers.

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Conclusion

This episode pulls back the curtain on police work that rarely makes headlines: the ambiguous calls, the trauma, the judgment calls without the benefit of hindsight, and the real danger to both public and officers. Through candid conversation and vivid storytelling, listeners get a nuanced sense of the pressures, stakes, and ethical gray zones that define law enforcement—and the lasting impact these experiences have on those behind the badge.

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For more:

• Guest’s website & book: anotherbodyinbrooklyn.com
• Host’s page & updates: Law Enforcement Talk Radio Show on Facebook

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Transcript

[A]

When it comes to crime, not all cases are as they appear. They're not as clear cut as people might think. He's a retired NYPD and he's here to talk about the realities of doing the job. Welcome to the Law Enforcement Talk Radio Show. In the Law Enforcement Talk Radio show, we are joined by special guests talking about their experiences, their realities of investigating crimes, plus those have experienced horrendous trauma. Police, fire, first responders, military and victims of crime share their stories. Hi, I'm John J. Wiley. In addition to being a broadcaster, I'm also a retired police sergeant. Be sure to check out our website, letradio.com and also like us on Facebook, search for the law enforcement talk radio show. How would you like a free ebook, about 15 tips on how to improve, how to get better health. 15 tips. These, these are tips you can implement today. They don't cost a bunch of money. They can add years to your life. They can add quality to those years. You can get them by going online to let healthy. Com, that's l ETHealthy.com you can download the ebook there for free. When I say free, there's no sales funnels, there's no credit card info needed. None of that stuff. That's LetHealthy.com let healthy. Com, that's LetHealthy.com again it's LetHealthy.com and let's get healthy for free. Calling us from New York area, we have Dave Goldstein on the law enforcement talk radio show. Dave is retired from the nypd. He was also a cop at a local university. He has since left law enforcement. Totally. You promised Dave. Totally. You're out of the law enforcement game. He's authored the book for now. For now it's called Another Body in Brooklyn. It's a fiction novel based on real life experiences. And his website is another book, bodyinbrooklyn.com Dave, thanks for being guest on the show and thanks for your service. Both very much appreciated.

[B]

Thank you John.

[A]

It's a pleasure to have you here. We're going to talk about this is something that really is a pet peeve of mine that so many people, especially when they read something in text, in the news, on social media, whatever it might be, print and paint. Well, the police didn't do the job because how come not everything in police work is clear cut and it's certainly not like the media presents it, is it?

[B]

No, definitely not.

[A]

And as a matter of fact, so much of what and this, I'm gonna get your opinion on this. So Many times we gave people breaks. We didn't arrest everybody that could be arrested because quite honestly, you didn't have enough time. But you gave a lot of breaks, used this word called discretion. And we didn't arrest everybody. But for example, here's. And I know you handle plenty of these domestic calls, who struck who, who, who said what to who, he said, she said, all that stuff without evidence, forget about it.

[B]

Right. It's tough. I mean, domestics are tough. You have to do a thorough investigation. You have to go where the evidence leads you. Everything from the initial phone call to when you get there, to interviewing the both parties, to looking for if there is any video footage and any witnesses. And you have to go with. And you have to make sure you control the situation and that you do a thorough investigation. But right at the end of the day, you do the best job you can.

[A]

I guess this question. When did you start policing and when did you retire?

[B]

All right, so I started. I was on LAPD for a few years before I went to nypd. I was there.

[A]

Wait, you went from LAPD to NYPD to a university police department?

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And so I started in 2001 in LAPD. My first year, I was in South Central LA in Southwest Division. And then my second year after my probation, they moved me up to West Valley Division. And then I missed New York, so I went back to New York and I had to go through the NYPD Academy. And then I started out in my first five years, I was in transit and we covered in Brooklyn, and we covered Brownsville, East New York, Bedford Stuyvesant, Bushwick. And then I got promoted to sergeant. I went to the 81 precinct in bed Stuy, Brooklyn. I was there for about five and a half years. Then I got promoted to lieutenant and I had to leave Brooklyn. So I went to the 113 Precinct in South Jamaica, Queens, and as a lieutenant platoon commander.

[A]

Well, you've had a long distance career. Have you seen a lot of changes in police work in your career?

[B]

Yeah, I mean, so even when I started, people were complaining about the job. And 20 years before that, people were like, it's. There's a lot more scrutiny on police officers than there's ever been, obviously. And with the advent, first it was like camcorders, and then it was cell phone cameras, and now it's video everywhere. Sometimes people only see a small portion of what happened, and they don't see the entire situation. So if you see two cops approach a person on the street, and then all of a sudden the guy tries to walk away and the cops start fighting him and put him in handcuffs. It's like, why did they do that to that guy? He was just walking down the street. Well, you don't know what happened five minutes before. The guy just robbed someone.

[A]

And by the way, that guy could be wanted for multiple murders. You just don't know.

[B]

Yeah. And so it's like you can get a snippet of, of an encounter and make it look bad. And sometimes. Look, do cops always do the right thing? No. But a lot of times when you see these videos, you're not seeing the whole situation. Even body cam, the body camera is pointing one way. You're not seeing something that happens to the side behind the person. You're not necessarily hearing everything. And so there's a lot more to it. And so when you really, before you second guessing people, you really have to have all the facts right.

[A]

Well, that's a pesky little thing that a lot of people don't want to, don't have patience for. They don't want facts, they don't want investigations, they don't want any of this stuff. They just want immediate action. And by the way, I love this all the time. I just did a post yesterday on my Facebook page, law enforcement talk radio show Facebook page, and about a police department in North Carolina. They fired an officer for shooting into an occupied building of occupied house. And people are like, right, they want him arrested. Okay, well that's not our call. That's called the state's attorney's job. That's someone else's job. And by the way, you have to develop this thing called probable cause and evidence. To fire someone as probationary is totally different than someone who's been on the job for a long time.

[B]

Yeah, you have a lot less protections if you're on probation. And where if there's doubt, they might err on the side of quote, unquote, caution and just say, we're going to dismiss you. But that's in no way saying that you're guilty of a felon. It's, you know, that's a totally separate matter.

[A]

It's a totally different matter. I've got to ask your question before we go on to your story. We're going to talk about two cases that really are not, as a lot of people would have, would think they're not as clear cut as people would think. And there's a lot of. He said there's a lot of. By the way, I am so opposed to drama and trauma. I don't want any of that in my life at all. I went through years of that and now what's the old Joe Friday line? Just the facts, man, just the facts. So before we get into that, gotta ask you a question. I came on in 1980. I retired in 1992. I got hurt by so called an unarmed man who made a play for my gun. At which point he became armed. Six shots were fired as a revolver cop. Thank God he lived. I lived. But I thought I sprained my wrist and I had multiple surgeries, steel plates. And I was retired at the age of 33. Which is where my real trouble started, however, trying to tell people that story. It's as if they don't want to believe it. Have you encountered that?

[B]

Well, yeah, I mean, so when you're going hands on with people, things happen. They can do anything they want to you. I've been bitten twice where it's broken the skin, a bunch of times where it didn't. They just bit my jacket or something. I've been headbutted. They can kick if you. I've been rolling around on the ground with one person and someone else kicked me in the head. There's no rules. We can't do things like that. I can't smash someone's head into the ground. I can't bite someone. You know, police have rules, so it's not really a fair fight. That's why when people say, well, why was there three cops on it? Well, manhandling a grown man who's high or drunk or just very angry and in a bad place is not the easiest thing in the world. Especially if he's got some size on him and things happen. I have had someone try to go for my gun. Luckily now we have the holsters are a lot better, the double retention holsters. But you do, you know, obviously you got to be cognizant of your gun. But when you're in a fight, it's not really a fight. It's not.

[A]

It's a different thing. We're taking a short break. We're talking with Dave Goldstein. He's retired nypd, also lapd, also university police officer. He wrote the book Another Body in Brooklyn. His website is Anotherbody in Brooklyn Dot com. This is Law Enforcement Talk. Rate his show. We will be right back. One of the questions I get all the time is how can I show my support for law enforcement? We're all busy. We've got busy lives. But there's something oh so simple you can do with our Facebook page. Search for Law Enforcement Talk Radio Show Facebook page and when you see a post you agree with that resonates with you, share it. Especially episodes of the podcast. To do all that, just search for us on Facebook. Look for Law Enforcement Talk Radio show and be sure to click like when.

[C]

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[A]

Return conversation with David Goldstein on the Enforcement Talk Radio show. Dave is retired from the nypd. He is also a former LAPD officer and a university police officer and he is author of the book Another Body in Brooklyn and his website is anotherbody in brooklyn.com. there's another body in brooklyn.com by the way, the novel is a fiction novel based on real life experiences. So check it out. It's Another Body in Brooklyn and I will check it out. Dave so much of police work is not cut and dry. It is not as what people would think. I wrote an old article, it's on my website. Hindsight is 20 20, but foresight and police workers often doesn't exist at all. And it's so easy to second guess and blame people. You had an interesting case when you were in Bedford Stuyvesant in Queens that involved a child abduction. Can you tell us about that?

[B]

Oh yeah, it's actually Bed Stuy, Brooklyn. But yeah, so like you said, we don't always have all the information going into something. You could go to 15 calls in a day and you just don't have all the information. So I was a sergeant in Bed Stuy. We get a call, it's a residential block about a male who had tried to abduct a child. I think she was like 11 and he was just seen in the area. So we get to the scene and we speak with the caller she informs us that the day before, a male had been following an 11 year old girl who she knew, she lived on the block and she was friends with the mom and Kat calling her and said, hey, come here, I want to talk to you. Come on, let's go somewhere. And the girl was obviously very scared. This guy, he's a big guy and he's also a career criminal. And so she was obviously really worried and he didn't know the girl from anything. He'd never seen this girl before. So she, the girl is really scared. She gets between them and she's like, no, you need to stop. And he's. I don't know if he was drunk or high, but he's like, no, you leave me alone, blah, blah, blah. He winds up stomping her foot and spinning her fit in her face. And then, but the girls able to get away and then he takes off. So I said, okay, well let's get him. You just saw him here? Yeah, I just saw him. He. He went that way. So I get her put in the back of the car, we drive around, she points him out, we arrest him. At that point he, he was very argumentative, but he didn't fight us or anything. So we have him in custody. And I call one of my units to come pick him up. And so they come pick him up to transform to the precinct. And now I'm gonna get the story and I gotta find the girl and everything. So a lot of people on the block had seen this. So people are coming out of their houses and they're upset and I'm like, whoa, what, why you guys so upset? We got the guy, you know, and they're saying, no, no, no, no. What happened was yesterday two other cops had come. It turns out they were from the school unit, they weren't my cops. And he had been detained the day before. And they said that, well, since the girl's mother wasn't there to make the report for her, they couldn't do anything, which is. I told him that's not true. What the situation would be with that is you either stay with the girl till mom gets home or you bring the girl to the precinct with the mom's friend and you wait for the cops and you wait for the mom and then you make report, but you're gonna make the arrest, right? But anyway, so I said, you know, I apologize for that. I don't know what happened. I'm talk to the cops. I mean, I never had a problem with those guys. I think they liked kids, they Were in the school unit. I don't know what happened. So I said, well, how. How do you leave? And he said that at all that on duty corrections officer came and picked him up. So I was like, that was a sister. So I was like, okay, that's. That's crazy. I apologize for that. But we got the guy now and we're gonna go from here. So I go back to the precinct, I got the girl, and I got mom, and I find the report that was taken the day before from these.

[A]

Before we go into.

[B]

They didn't make a report for the girl.

[A]

Hang on a second. Dave, you said the guy was argumentative, but he didn't fight you. Did anything occur to make the alarm bells go off in your head? Something seriously not right with this guy.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, he was clearly. He was a street guy, street criminal. I mean, so, you know, I thought he was going to fight us because at first, you know, he kind of started ball his fists and you know, he acted like that. But me and the guy I was working with, we grabbed him up real quick and cuffed him and he didn't. But, you know, he was. You could tell he was the guy who liked to fight. You know, he.

[A]

That's the kind of next question I'm going to have is when he approached the girl. And this is something a lot of people get confused about. It's. We've got a thing in the United States called free speech. And there's threats that people can make. They're called conditional threats. And different states have different laws and different rules. We don't know what his actions were and his demeanor was with that person, do we?

[B]

No. And that's why I think the cops didn't do a thorough investigation.

[A]

That's what I'm getting at. If you felt there was a threat and this guy acted in a threatening manner, I keep. I can't see anybody, any police from any agency walking away from a juvenile victim. I just can't see it.

[B]

No, I think they just didn't get the full story is what I think happened.

[A]

All right, good. So we clarified that. You got the guy under arrest, you got him back to station. What was the end result in court?

[B]

So the. The fact that the cops had let him go the day before, it caused a lot of problems. And that's always going to be a situation if you have a Dem domestic and a cop doesn't make it a mandatory arrest or you have anything like that. Basically, that cop becomes a witness for the defense.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Because the defense is going to say, well, the cops were there the day before they investigated and they determined that no crime occurred. And there's, you know, there should be no issue. So that's like, that's why cops have to make thorough investigations. If you don't know something, you have to find out. You can't assume and you can't always.

[A]

Go by what people tell you. Thing is that you can't always go about what's said. You got to have evidence and see, and New York is very similar to Baltimore. And for example, and it's been a while, it could have changed, but we couldn't go exactly with what snitches or informants told us. We had to have corroborating evidence. So you couldn't go by what someone said. You had to have evidence to back it up.

[B]

Right. I mean, so cops can testify to something somebody told them, unless it's an admission or a confession or a spontaneous statement by a suspect, basically. But so you do have to have corroborating evidence. And you. But if you have multiple witnesses to something, that's usually, that's evidence, you know, that's usually pretty good.

[A]

So I get why. And a lot of people don't get this, but this is part of the reason why we don't use the term suspect. We don't. You. We don't accuse someone of committing a crime because you don't want to be the guy in court, say, well, it turns out that you prejudice the case. And you could be wrong as the day is long, because there have been a couple cases where I arrested people and it turns out I was flat out wrong.

[B]

Yes. No, it can happen. And as a cop, you have to make sure you're providing all the evidence, everything, even if it's not what you want it to be, to the district attorney's office who's going to provide it to the defense. And you have to make sure that you don't get creative in the way you write things up, that you just stick. Like you said, just the facts.

[A]

Just Joe Friedeline. Just the facts, ma', am, by the way. So in court, what was the final disposition of the court?

[B]

So he got off with a slap on the wrist. And, you know, the public defenders had like a whole. He was. He had a very bad criminal history, so they didn't want him. Public defenders, a lot of them, they just don't want anyone to go to prison. So they made a big thing with the cops. And I don't want to go too much into it, but one of the cops wound up being a witness for the defense and the DA's office was not happy. But you know, me and my cops did the exact right thing and the people were very appreciative because there was a lot of outreach.

[A]

We're going to take a short break. We're talking with Dave Goldstein's retired nypd. He's also a former LAPD and a former university police officer. He wrote the book Another Body in Brooklyn, fiction novel based on real life experiences and website is another body in Brooklyn.com when we return, a law enforcement talk radio show. We're going to talk about domestics. Oh, and how confusing they can quite often be. Don't go anywhere. We'll be right back.

[C]

Someone asked, what's the catch? What's the cost? There is no cost for anything. On the law enforcement talk radio show and podcast website letradio.com letradio.com Again, that's L E T radio.com.

[A]

Return conversation with David Goldstein. He is retired nypd. That's New York Police Department, by the way, former lapd. That's Los Angeles Police Department, by the way. He's also a former university police officer as well. Well as the author of the book Another Body in Brooklyn, fiction based novel based on real life experiences. And his website is anotherbodyinbrooklyn.com before we talk about your overachiever status, Dave, we're going to talk about something that a lot of people really don't get right is domestic calls. And for example, this is from my own experience in Maryland, I know is different than New York State. But when I got separated and divorced and child custody and we had shared parentage but she had primary physical, all that is a civil agreement. None of that really matters. It's unenforceable unless you take them to court. And so much of what happens in domestics and there was an incident in Connecticut that changed the way we handle things totally. But did you see in your experience that domestics were ever clear cut?

[B]

No. I mean, occasionally they are. I mean but a lot of times, especially when kids are involved or, you know, especially when it's like you said, he said, she said. Sometimes it is, there's a lot of gray and you really have to, you really have to just go where the evidence takes you, whatever evidence you can get.

[A]

We had a case that and I paraphrasing so I don't have we used to handle things quite differently prior to this case in Torrington, Connecticut, which we'll talk about in a few moments. If something a Crime allegedly occurred was not committed in your presence. We would take the information, take a report and say you go see a court commissioner and get a warrant for the arrest. Because we didn't see it. However, in this Torrington, Connecticut, which involved a domestic violence call where a woman was severely beaten, it changed the way we did things totally across the United States. And then there are two things we had to look at. Was there any kind of physical evidence, any kind of marks on them? There was. Someone went to jail. If we thought that there'd be physical harm afterwards someone went to jail, it didn't matter. And quite often you would do that to protect the so called victim. However, a lot of people didn't get that. They just say, oh, you went and locked people up and you took them to jail. And qualified immunity should go out the window for that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it created a no win situation. So, for example, and I'll get off my soapbox after this, I had a former cop who a domestic violence call in Charlottesville, Virginia, and he didn't do anything horribly wrong. This is after the Torrington, Connecticut case. The guy was acting out, he was running towards the victim, he grabbed him, body slammed him, threw him against the wall, handcuffed him, locked them up. This officer got charged with assault, got arrested, got convicted and lost their job. And we say, well, according to Torrington, Connecticut, what else is the officer supposed to do?

[B]

Well, I mean, if you're trying to protect someone from being assaulted, you're allowed to use physical force so you could slam someone to the ground and take them in custody. That's, that's absolutely. Which hurts out. What I'm hearing is that the guy did nothing wrong, but as a sergeant, sounds crazy.

[A]

You were a sergeant before you got promoted. Defendant as a sergeant, they run the show, they run the police departments. You didn't make the calls. And I saw nothing this officer did wrong. And I'd be the first one to say if they did something wrong, then crucify him. Go for him. Go for it.

[B]

Yeah. No, Your job is to protect Pete. That's your first job as a cop is to protect life and you have to protect people. There should never be a situation where a cop is hesitant to act when someone's life or their physical security is in danger.

[A]

Right, Right. And we were always taught early on, make a mistake doing your job. Don't lie, do not justify, do not write he fell down his tails. If you had to hit him, say you hit him, here's the reason why you hit him. Just none of the stuff that people swear goes on all the time. We got off the topic. Your career as lieutenant, you were involved in a domestic violence complaint and a child custody dispute. Can you talk about that?

[B]

Yeah, and it's pretty common. I just remember this one because. Too long before I retired. But. So when you. When you have a situation where. Like you were saying before, if me and you have a kid together, basically we both have. Unless there's a court order, both of us have access to the kid. We could take the kid. There's no. It's not a kidnapping situation. However, if the kid is potentially in danger as a result, it still need. You still need to get that kid back quickly. And I've seen things that I wasn't involved in where it went really bad because the cops didn't act with a sense of urgency in these cases. And I'll give you. So the example I'm going to give is at this point, I'm a lieutenant in South Jamaica, Queens. Woman walks in the station, she's all beat up, and she says, my baby's father, he never wanted anything to do with the kid before, but then he beat me up badly, took him and says, you know, you're not gonna see him again. I'm going down south now. You're not gonna see him again. Could just mean he's going down south, or it could mean something worse.

[A]

Right?

[B]

So we have to get that kid back quickly. Obviously, we have to arrest the guy for domestic violence, but that's not even the. The main thing is making sure that kids are right. So if you want to treat it, say it's a welfare check or something like that, it's fine, but it needs to be acted on. You don't sit there and twiddle your thumbs and say, let's talk to the detectives. Let's do this whole thing. No, you just got to get the kid back quickly. So, you know, she was very upset, obviously, But I said, you need to calm down, and I need to get. Where do you think he is right now? Because a lot of times victims, you know, when they've dated somebody, they know what they're gonna do. They know where they're gonna go half the time. They know how they escape when the police come. So you just got. Where do you think he's gonna go right now? So she said he'd probably go to his mom's house. Just happened. So we go over there, get airy the mom's house, and see him walking with the kid. With the kid. The kids, like, maybe A year and a half, little kid, little baby. So we go up to him, and you can see what his state of mind was, because he immediately becomes. Sees the cops walking up to him. He knows he just beat the mom up. He media becomes very irate. And now this situation, cops are in a lot where somebody's holding a small child or a baby, and. And not only is it that you're gonna have to arrest this person, but you're worried that something's gonna happen to this child because they're right. You don't know if they're gonna drop the kid. You don't know what they're gonna do.

[A]

Or throw the child at you, which I've had a lot of people use these babies as shields, Human shields.

[B]

Yes, yes. It's happened to me a lot in my career, a lot. And luckily, it's never gone bad. But, you know, it could have a few times.

[A]

I've read some of these stories, unfortunately, never weren't really bad with me either. But here's the thing that I'm still, to this day, a bit troubled about. It's more so with the prolonged violence against children from parents. But how a parent could do that, I'll never understand. How they could hide drugs in a baby's diaper and then throw the baby at you, I will never understand. And I'll never say that's okay. Doesn't mean you get to have a free for all and start knocking people's teeth out. It just means that certain things in life you just got to deal with, and that's just one of them.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, as the cop, you have to be the adult in the situation. So this guy, he's the only victim in the world right now. He doesn't want to go to jail. But, you know, you have a kid, and I think if it's me or you, even if I was being accused of somebody my third something, my first thought would be my kid. I would want someone to hold the kid, get them to a safe place. We said, we'll give the kid to mom. The kid will be fine. But he didn't want that. He still became more and more aggressive. I was eventually able to calm him down a little bit, and we were able to kind of like pry the baby out of his hand safely. And at that point, he started fighting us. And it was like, it wasn't that bad a fight, but it was like, you know, there was some blows thrown. But the point is that with these situations, and I can't. That's why I decided to talk about this is that.

[A]

Let's take a short break. When we're turning that conversation moment, we're talking with Dave Goldstein, retired nypd, former lapd, a former university police officer, he wrote the book Another Body in Brooklyn. Fiction based novel based on real life experiences. His website is Another Body in Brooklyn. This is Law Enforcement Talk. Rated show. Take a short break. We'll be right back. If you do any business on social media, creating content is one thing. The trick is how do you turn those people that comment on your social media into consumers. It's a great tool and you can get more information@let pops.com that's L E T P O P S.com best of all, you can start it for free. Letpops.com check it out today.

[D]

This is the story of the one as the purchasing manager at a manufacturing plant, she knows the only thing more important than having the right safety gear is having it there when you need it. That's why she partners with Grainger for auto reordering, so her team members can count on her to have cut resistant gloves on hand and each shift can run safely and efficiently. Call 1-800-GRAINGER clickgrainger.com or just stop by Granger for the ones who get it done.

[A]

Return conversation with David Goldstein, retired NYPD to New York Police Department. He's a former LAPD officer, a former university police officer. He wrote the book Another Body in Brooklyn which we'll talk about in a few moments. Fiction based novel based on real life experiences and his website is anotherbodyinbrooklyn.com David, thanks for your service and thanks for being a guest on the show. Both very much appreciated. One of the things that I get is when you said and it almost made more often than not when people gave indicators that they're going to hit me or they want to fight, it was usually a fight. It wasn't the kind of thing that people would send out false flags for. As a matter of fact, if they didn't want to fight you, you would usually. No, it took a hardcore criminal that would put out feelers that they're not going to fight you and then fight. So when you said the fight was on, it wasn't a serious fight.

[B]

How bad was wasn't a bad fight. We had three of us. Myself, the guy I was working with and I had one other guy because the other guy was holding the baby. But we had him pretty good. But I was in a bad position because I was like very close to him because we had just you Know, the cop got the baby out while I was like holding his eye contact. And so I was in a bad position. So, you know, I wound up, I did have to hit him once and we reported it, of course, use of force. But it wasn't, you know, I've definitely been in a lot worse fights that wasn't that bad. I can't keep track of this, indicators of fighting. And it's like, so if you go to grab someone and they push your hand away, that means he's gonna fight you.

[A]

Right.

[B]

100% of the time people think, oh, that's not resisting arrest. You just put your hand away. No, that means they're gonna fight you. If somebody just feels their body and becomes rigid, they might not fight you. That happens a lot where you're able to. It's better if you have two people, we each grab one in their hands and you know, get it behind the back. Sometimes they don't. But once somebody makes those aggressive moves, you know, they ball their fists, they get into a fighting stance or they just, you know, like they push you or something like that, they've already started fighting.

[A]

Right. And one of the things and you and that, the cameras don't pick that up quite often. And one thing they don't pick up, especially when it's filmed by a so called witness, is they don't record what the people say. So for example, you may not see you said an important thing. And I remember being a rookie cop and getting into fights and a guy, an old time police came to me, he goes, listen, if a guy says he's going to hit you and puts his hand in a fist, nail him. Don't wait for him to swing first because if he gets a lucky punch on your, hits you on the button, you're out cold. And then you're totally at his command and there's nothing you can do to stop what he's going to do.

[B]

Yeah, no, it's true. And we've all been in Sig. The more situations you're in, you look at situations like, yeah, I should have reacted, I should have acted sooner, but I was trying to, you know, right. Diffuse the situation. And then sometimes you'll be in a situation where you immediately just grab the guy, yoke him or do something. And it's like, you're like, yeah, because I knew what was going on. But sometimes, like you said, things aren't always clear cut. Sometimes there might be a big audience and you're like trying to really not make a big scene or you have A lot of people around you. And like, it's happened to me where now some of these people might become aggressors. If you start fighting with this guy, you could be hit by somebody else. So sometimes. But the fact is that, like, once somebody makes it their attention that they're not going to jail, they're not just being uncooperative. They're not saying, why, why, why do I. I didn't do anything. I didn't do it. That's one thing. But once they do some kind of an act that makes it clear they're not going to jail, then at that point you have to use usually physical force to take them into custody.

[A]

And speaking of physical force and use of force, a lot of people talk about the use of force continuum. We didn't have that back in my day. And by the way, we did. I'm sure something you did de escalating all the time, that's an end result. It takes two people. Police alone can't do it. It takes a bad guy's cooperation. But I've been in more fights than I can remember. I tell people, and I don't do it often. Dave I was in four shootings in 10 years. The first two, I never fired a shot back. The second two, the last people lived. And they were. They're good. They're long, prolonged affairs. I had many close calls. I got stabbed once by a drunk. I got smoke inhalation room rescuing people and house fires. I was in more car accidents you can shake a stick at. And more brawls than I can remember. More fights than I can remember. And I don't think I was unique.

[B]

No, I mean, because people think you're just fighting with people when they're being arrested. But it's also somebody and somebody who's emotionally disturbed, like somebody who needs to go to the hospital for evaluation. A lot of times you can't talk them into it, right? There's gonna be physical force, they're gonna attack you, or they're gonna refuse to be handcuffed for the psych hold. And especially in New York City, you could go to six of those calls in a day. It's such a condensed city. It's such a busy city. So you're going to be in a fair amount of situations. A lot of times you could talk people into custody. Cops are very good at talking to emotionally disturbed people. I think people think the opposite more.

[A]

So than everybody else.

[B]

The fact is that with emotionally disturbed people, when somebody's in a home or a hospital where they can't leave, but they're acting to a point where it's super violent. They call the cops. There's no magic doctor or nurse who has the cops resources. Because cops, yes, are good at talking to people, but cops also have the ability. Cops have handcuffs, cops have pepper spray, cops have a baton. Cops have the ability to use force if it's necessary, you know, the least amount that you can. But to take somebody into custody to prevent them from harming themselves or others.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

And if.

[A]

Yeah, the other thing, and for your book is about use of force. If you have to use force, it's like making sausage. Everybody loves, but no one wants to see it being made. No one likes that at all. If you got to use force, what I was taught is be swift, be decisive, and be over. When they're handcuffed, it is over no matter what. If you think you're losing it, you need someone else to take custody of the prisoner. That's just all there is to it. Dave, you wrote a book, Another Body in Brooklyn. Tell us quickly, what is that about?

[B]

Okay, so Another Body, Brooklyn. It takes place in bed Stuy in 2014. It is fiction, I want to emphasize, but it's about a young sergeant, and they respond to the first homicide of the year. It's on New Year's Day, and things kind of go bad at the crime scene. And then things in his life kind of are starting to spiral a little bit. And with his career, there's a lot of negative stuff that's happening to him, not only in his own life, but just at work. And I deal with the fact that a lot of police books, they center on one case. But when you're a patrol officer in a busy precinct, you go into so many calls that like, you know, you could, you could, you could be a homicide, and then two hours later you're fighting with the guy in the street on something else. So it's very important to kind of have a centered mind and just kind of understand what's really important. And I don't try to moralize in the book or anything, but at the end of the day, the book is. And there's a lot of exciting stuff in it, a lot of very realistic, but at the end of the day, it's about caring about your job, caring about people, treating people like they're human beings, even though some people act in a way that, you know, we want to think otherwise, but treating people like they're human beings and just doing the job to the best of your ability. And it's also about some of the mistakes cops make, like you were saying, because they don't have the foresight, the foreknowledge. They don't know everything that happened before they got there, after they got there. So there's a lot of stuff that seems to be on the surface one thing, and then it turns out to be something completely different. And it's not necessarily your fault as a police officer if you didn't know everything or you didn't know things that there was no way you could know.

[A]

Right. By the way, there's an old saying that I use quite often, and it's really helped me a lot, is I'm not God, I wasn't Superman. I just did the best I could, what I had at the time. That's all there is. In some cases, you can do much better than other ones, and you just do the best you can. Your website, anotherbodyinbrooklyn.com is that about the book? And can people contact you there?

[B]

Yeah, they can leave. There's a way for people to contact me through that. I'm also on LinkedIn. But yeah, there's a way they could contact me for that and they could buy the books through the website. And the website has like, it has a biography about me and, you know, says a little bit about my career and everything. And actually really nice. The guy who designed it did a really good job.

[A]

Check it out. It's another body in Brooklyn dot com. Dave I want to thank you for your service in both lapd, NYPD and also, I should say NPDP three times in University Police Department. And thanks for being a guest on the Law Enforcement Talk Radio Show. All very much appreciated.

[B]

John, thank you so much. Thank you for your service as well.

[A]

Of all the radio stations in the United States, there are no other shows like the Law Enforcement Talk Radio Show. And on Facebook, there's only one official page. Do a search on Facebook for the Law Enforcement Talk Radio show and be sure to like the Law Enforcement Talk British show Facebook page I'd like to thank our guests for coming on the Law Enforcement Talk Radio Show. The Law Enforcement Talk Radio show is a nationally syndicated weekly radio show broadcast on Numerous AM&FM radio stations across the country. We're always adding more affiliate stations. If you enjoyed the podcast version of the show, which is always free, please do me a favor and tell a friend or two or three. I'll be back in just a few days with another episode of the Law Enforcement Talk Radio show and Podcast. Until then, this is John J. Wiley. See ya.

[D]

This is the story of the One as the purchasing manager at a manufacturing plant, she knows the only thing more important than having the right safety gear is having it there when you need it. That's why she partners with Grainger for auto reordering, so her team members can count on her to have cut resistant gloves on hand and each shift can run safely and efficiently. Call 1-800-GRAINGER click granger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done.

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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