Special Episode: The Police Off The Cuff Podcast.

Summary

Law Enforcement Talk: True Crime and Trauma Stories Special Episode: Police Off The Cuff Podcast – The Nancy Guthrie Case Host: William “Bill” Cannon (Retired NYPD Detective) Date: March 29, 2026

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Episode Overview

This in-depth special episode, hosted by William “Bill” Cannon of the Police Off The Cuff Podcast, focuses on the unresolved and gripping Nancy Guthrie kidnapping case, now at 51 days without resolution. Cannon, drawing from his decades of law enforcement experience, offers a clear-headed, practical perspective on the investigation’s status, dispels misinformation, and features insight from prominent voices in policing, forensic science, and legal analysis. The episode combines Cannon’s commentary, media updates, guest expert interviews, and active interaction with the online true crime community, striving to cut through speculation and media noise.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Case Recap and Current Status

• Day 51: No suspects or arrests in the kidnapping of 84-year-old Nancy Guthrie from her Tucson home (00:34, 03:49).
• Law enforcement reiterates: the case is not cold; active investigation continues on multiple fronts (00:34, 03:49).
• The Guthrie family, growing desperate, pleads to the public for new information and offers a $1 million reward (10:30, 11:33, 53:42).

Quote:
"Is it a cold case? By no means is it a cold case. Investigators are working diligently." – Bill Cannon (00:34)

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2. Theories and Competing Hypotheses

• Main Theories:
  • Targeted abduction due to Nancy's identity/connections (Savannah Guthrie’s mother)
  • Staged or interrupted crime – or possibly, someone known to the victim
  • Non-classical kidnapping (lacking ransom demands or digital critical trails)
  • Possible straight-up homicide/body removal vs. abduction for ransom (26:02, 29:45)

Quote:
"I don’t believe this was one person. I believe this was a team of people that targeted Nancy Guthrie’s house. And she was targeted specifically because she is Nancy Guthrie." – Bill Cannon (07:01)

• Matt Murphy (Retired Prosecutor):
  • Suggests the crime was not a kidnapping in the classical sense, but a murder and body removal. Dismisses common assumptions around abductions with ransom and points at evidence of violence and the victim’s vulnerability (26:02, 26:54, 29:45, 31:38).
  • Rules out cartel and random sex crimes in this context; flags parallels with “missing body” murder prosecutions.

Memorable Quote:
"I don’t think there are any kidnappers. This was a … body removal from the…boom." – Matt Murphy (26:13)

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3. Investigation Challenges and Critiques

• Mixed Law Enforcement and Public Efforts:

  • Heavy reliance on the public for leads (12:13, 54:28), signaling potential lack of concrete suspects as of day 51.
  • Volunteer search groups (Cajun Navy, Texas/Midwest Equusearch) offered aid but were declined by Pima County authorities, possibly due to jurisdictional pride or caution (13:45).

• Methodological Criticism:

  • Inadequate and inconsistent messaging from Pima County Sheriff’s office criticized as a major error, causing confusion and potentially hurting the investigation (47:57–49:38).
  • Lax crime scene maintenance (crime scene opened and closed prematurely, potentially compromising evidence), questionable choice to send DNA to a private lab instead of FBI (49:38, 50:24).
  • Failure to produce official suspect sketches despite identifiable surveillance imagery (58:35).

Quote:
"The messaging has been horrible. You have to use the public. You have to put out correct information so the public gives in turn…The messaging is so off and so wrong all the time that I think the public is confused as well as the press." – Bill Cannon (47:57)

• Geofencing & Digital Forensics:
  • FBI using exhaustive digital measures—geofencing, cell phone tracking, analysis of security camera data—but with few actionable results to date (45:42–46:48).
  • No confirmed suspect/witness digital trail; unexplained Wi-Fi disruption at crime scene triggers questions of premeditation and technical interference (58:35, 67:00).

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4. Forensic Science: DNA and Investigative Genetic Genealogy

• CeCe Moore (Genealogy Expert):
  • Provides a layperson’s breakdown of investigative genetic genealogy, explaining the process and hurdles (17:08, 18:06, 20:59, 23:14).
  • Lab is creating profiles for both CODIS and genealogy databases. Three major consumer DNA companies do NOT cooperate with law enforcement, slowing progress (19:20).
  • Results may take months to a year, similar to the case resolution in the Bryan Kohberger Idaho Four murders (21:40).

Notable Quote:
"We are limited to the three smallest databases... and so then we get what’s called a match list…we're looking for relatives, and we can work with second, third, fourth, fifth cousins...to reverse engineer the family tree." – CeCe Moore (20:59)

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5. Media, Public, and Family Involvement

• Guthrie family’s public pleas express mounting grief, and their statements indicate resignation to the likelihood that Nancy is deceased (11:33, 13:24, 53:15).
• Media outlets and Cannon’s audience tirelessly discuss the case, share theories, and press officials for greater clarity and diligence.
• The community (via chat and callers) raises searching questions about the efficacy of DNA evidence, the logic behind certain investigative decisions, and the implications of ongoing misinformation from both law enforcement and “YouTube detectives.”

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6. Crime Scene & Behavioral Analysis

• Blood stain analysis at the scene (expirated blood), debates over whether this suggests Nancy was alive or dead during movement from the house (36:37–43:32).
• Discussion about intruder entry – possibly an inside job, multiple offenders, planned and controlled execution, use of unusual gun carrying (“Mexican carry”) as a potential signature (07:01, 39:29, 58:35, 67:00).

Quote:
"This may not have been a chaotic break-in or smash-and-grab scenario. This may have been controlled, deliberate, and fast. And that points to experience, confidence, possible prior criminal behavior." – Bill Cannon (67:00)

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7. What’s Next – Outlook and Closing Thoughts

• With over 40,000 leads and major attention, the investigation continues with cross-referencing, reinterviewing, and hopes pinned on forensic breakthroughs (10:30, 67:00).
• Family pleas and the $1 million reward are ongoing. Law enforcement, despite frustration and speculation, is said to be "tightening the circle."
• Cannon's verdict: “This case will get solved. It’s a matter of time.” But he candidly acknowledges how frustrating and painful the wait is for both the family and public.

Final Quote:
"At day 51, there is no arrest…This case, as I have said numerous times, this case will get solved. It's a matter of time. And we are getting very frustrated. You can't even imagine how frustrated the Guthrie family is." – Bill Cannon (67:00)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• "No ransom demand, which is very, very critical. Many...say this is not a classical kidnapping. I believe them." – Bill Cannon (07:49)
• "I did homicides for 17 years…this is one of those rare occasions I really hope I'm wrong. I don't think there are any kidnappers." – Matt Murphy (26:02)
• "We are limited to the three smallest databases…so our job is to identify who those common ancestors are between the matches." – CeCe Moore (20:59, 23:14)
• "I think they should prosecute these scammers as accessories after the fact to murder." – Matt Murphy (30:16)
• "You have to use the public. You have to put out correct information so the public gives… if you use them properly, they could be your best friend—if you use them improperly…they did a horrible job." – Bill Cannon (47:57)
• "Millions of people, professionals, news media trying to figure out this very complicated [case]; in 50-plus days, there’s still nothing. It's mind-boggling." – Listener, Saturday Moon (58:35)

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Important Timestamps

• 00:34–03:49 – Episode is introduced; Bill Cannon recaps the Nancy Guthrie case.
• 07:01–10:30 – Review of suspect theories; why this doesn't fit typical kidnapping patterns.
• 12:51–15:45 – Expert panels debate lack of investigative progress and family statements.
• 17:08–24:29 – CeCe Moore unpacks investigative genetic genealogy.
• 26:02–34:08 – Matt Murphy breaks down his “body removal/murder” theory.
• 36:37–43:32 – Forensic details: blood evidence, digital forensics, ransom skepticism.
• 45:42–49:38 – Geofencing, law enforcement communication failures dissected.
• 50:24–53:42 – Crime scene integrity, private vs. FBI DNA processing debated.
• 54:28–67:00 – Lifetime impact of Nancy Guthrie, evidence handling, public pleas, and case outlook.

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Concluding Thought

In this exhaustive and impassioned analysis, Bill Cannon models how experienced investigators interpret evidence and cut through sensationalism. The Nancy Guthrie case emerges as a complex, multi-layered mystery, one that resists easy answers and instead demands patience, scientific rigor, and an unwavering commitment to truth and justice. Cannon and his panel—as well as the entire Guthrie family—urge members of the public: "Now is the time to come forward and help to solve this case." (67:00)

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For listeners seeking further engagement or who hold information, Cannon urges: subscribe, share, comment, and—most crucially—contact law enforcement with any tips.

Transcript

[Alex Kanchowitz]

Hi, this is Alex Kanchowitz. I'm the host of Big Technology Podcast, a longtime reporter and an on air contributor to cnbc. And if you're like me, you're trying to figure out how artificial intelligence is changing the business world and our lives. So each week on Big Technology, I bring on key actors from companies building AI tech and outsiders trying to influence it, asking where this is all going. They come from places like Nvidia, Microsoft, Amazon, and plenty more. So if you want to be smart with your wallet, your career choices, in meetings with your colleagues and at dinner parties, listen to Big Technology Podcast wherever you get your podcasts.

[William Bill Cannon]

This is a special episode of the law enforcement talk radio show and podcast featuring the Police off the Cuff podcast, hosted by our friend William Bill Cannon. Bill is a retired NYPD detective and has been a guest on my show. In this special episode, he talks about the Nancy Guthrie case. Good afternoon, everyone. Day 51 of the Nancy Guthrie kidnapping. Today marks day 51 in the kidnapping of Nancy Guthrie. And we're now at a critical point in this investigation. No arrest, no confirmed suspect. But behind the scenes, this case is far from cold. New evidence is being analyzed. Investigators are tightening their focus, and today the family is speaking out again to people that may have information. But a quick reminder, folks, if you're looking for real crime insight, not YouTube theories, this channel is different. I'm a retired NYPD sergeant, and on Police off the Cuff, we analyze cases the way cops and prosecutors do. What matters, what doesn't, and what the Internet gets wrong. If that's the perspective you want, subscribe now, because this isn't entertainment. It's experience. And folks, if you're not subscribed, we would like you to subscribe, like us, share us, make lots of comments. It helps our algorithm and it helps our channel to grow, which it is doing in leaps and bounds now because of people like you that have found this channel and like the product that we're putting out. So thank you so much, all the new people. Folks, another little reminder. Police off the Cuff is sponsored by FanDuel on the believe Network. So, so much. So many new things are happening, but yet this case is moving along at a slow pace. But is it a cold case? By no means is it a cold case. Investigators are working diligently and we don't know. That's one of the reasons the press gets crazy and starts inventing things. We don't know specifically what the investigators are working on right now. What is their direction? Is there a person of interest? Do they have perps or perpetrators involved and identified in this case, or are they just working and collecting evidence? So folks, hold on to your hats, hold on to your loved ones, hold on to your thoughts, hold on to your cup of coffee, hold on to your service dog. You're about to enter true crime from a police perspective. You're about to enter the off the cuff zone. The police off the cuff zone, They have to use some common sense.

[News Reporter]

They were the ones who called 911 to get him help and now they're calling for,

[William Bill Cannon]

You know, one of my questions to all of you in the chat is does the Guthrie family, do they know more than we know? And is that why they're going back to the airways and asking for help, asking for people to give information, to continue to give information? And little tidbits of information or investigative nuggets they call it on News Nation are put out a little bit more now by the FBI. And they were specifically talking about the date of January 11th, looking for pictures, looking for video from that day. Is there some evidence they have? And of course, we realized January 11th was well before the February 1st kidnapping, as it was known to be, of Nancy Guthrie. So all of that information they have and they're holding it close to the vest. In fact, we don't know about that, do we? But yet this is day 51 of this case. And as I said earlier, in no way is this is this a cold case. Investigators are working diligently and on many different areas of this investigation. We said from the very beginning, police off the cuff science is going to solve this case. And I believe that to this day it will be Science. @EGON4482 from the chat, thank you so much for the 999 super sticker and thanks for covering this case. It's so interesting. It sure is. It's interesting, I think for everyone, for everyone that's following this case, all true crimers. But you gotta be sort of careful because I think that there's a lot of false information put out there and there's a lot of information put out there to steer the investigation or steer the audience a certain way. And it may not in fact be the truth. Jay Gammiz 5023 it was reported last night that a name on the list the FBI gave to local gun owners was also the last name of a healthcare worker who stayed with Nancy back in 2023. This person was eventually fired at JGammas 5023. That sounds like a great lead to follow up on and I'm sure the FBI is doing so. They are following up on that lead from the chat also. Caller cap capo ferry 1077, love your show. Thank you so much. We love having you on our show. We love all the new people we're seeing in our chat. It's thrilling for us to have new people from all. Not just across the usa, but across the country. People that enjoy this show. So where are we at? What are we talking about with this case? There's a lot of different opinions, right? And there's Savannah Guthrie and her mom. Was there ever a forced entry into this house? No one can agree on that. But guess what? I believe. I believe that the police know how the perpetrators got into this house. And you notice I say that plural. I say perpetrators. I don't believe this was one person. I believe this was a team of people that targeted Nancy Guthrie's house. And she was targeted specifically because she is Nancy Guthrie. So what do we have then? A forced entry? We don't know if there was a force entry. There's been some conjecture that a door was left open in the back. That perhaps some perpetrators got in the back and let the other perpetrator in. Because we believe that Nancy Guthrie was taken out the front because of the blood evidence. Blood evidence left behind at the scene. No confirmed digital trail identifying a suspect and no ransom demand, which is very, very critical. Right. So the ransom demand. Many are saying, many really smart people in the criminal justice field that this is not a classical kidnapping. So to those people, and I, I believe them, I, I'm on board with them. I don't think this was a classical kidnapping. However, I do believe that Nancy Guthrie was targeted perhaps because of her affluence, perhaps because she was an easy target, perhaps because she was Savannah Guthrie or she is Savannah Guthrie's mom. And that could be one of the reasons she was targeted. So this case is always pointed toward one of three possibilities. Was it a targeted abduction, a staged or interrupted crime, or the offender is known to the victim. And at day 51, we would hope that the investigators are narrowing their scope. Narrowing where they're looking. Narrowing Potentially having a suspect or a suspect or two maybe.

[Attorney Mark Geragos]

Right.

[William Bill Cannon]

That they've identified. But there's so many different theories. This is from a local news 12 in regards to the Guthrie case. It's up on the screen right now.

[News Anchor/Reporter]

Family is asking the Tucson community to not forget their 84 year old mother, Nancy. She's now been missing for seven weeks. Can you believe that? After being abducted from her Catalina foothills home. So in a message to our sister station in Tucson, the Guthrie family thanked neighbors and friends for their support and urged any one with information, no matter how small, to come forward. They're asking the community to, quote, search their memories, especially around the key timelines of January 31st and the early morning hours of February 1st, as well as the late evening of January 11th. Her family saying that without answers, we cannot grieve. We can only ache and wonder. We want to celebrate her beautiful and courageous life, but we cannot do that until she is brought to a final place of rest. Now, this investigation has a masked at least 40,000 leads. The biggest clue so far, this chilling video showing an armed masked man at Nancy's home the night she was abducted. The Pima county sheriff's office says they are constantly analyzing evidence. The family is also offering a $1 million reward for her safe return.

[William Bill Cannon]

You know, we would have thought that the $1 million reward was going to really, really, really shake the tree and come up with a suspect or suspects, but so far that hasn't occurred. We do not have a suspect yet. And the fact that the FBI and the Pima County Sheriff's Office is still on March 23, reaching out to members of the community that is telling me that they don't have a person of interest. They don't have a suspect at this point. So they're looking. They're still looking and digging and doing all kinds of investigative work, but as of now, there is no suspect. So again, are people going to start to say then this must be a cold case because there's no suspect? This is from fox news for Nancy Guthrie.

[Fox News Host]

Nearing two months with the Guthrie family releasing another plea asking for help finding their 84 year old mother. The family writing, quote, we desperately ask this community for renewed attention to our mom's case. We miss our mom every with every breath. And we cannot be in peace until she is home. We cannot grieve. We can only ache and wonder. Our focus is solely on finding her and bringing her home. We want to celebrate her beautiful and courageous life, but we cannot do that until she is brought to a final place of rest. Thank you for continuing to pray without ceasing. Fox news contributor and criminal defense attorney Josh Ritter joins me now. Josh, thank you for joining us.

[William Bill Cannon]

So the family reaching out is a very real thing. They're being told by law enforcement. Look, we need help. We absolutely need help. Would you go back on TV and talk to the community, Talk to the Tucson community, talk to the Pima county sheriff's jurisdictional community because we need help. We need a tip. We need someone that saw something. If you see something, say something. That's what they need. We'll go back to Fox News in

[Fox News Host]

regards to this, the two month mark without any significant developments having taken place in several weeks. What are your latest thoughts when it comes to this case?

[Josh Ritter]

Well, this statement leads me to believe that they really don't have much that they're working on. Whatever leads that they had before now have not panned out whether that was the digital evidence that they had, the cell phone towers, the for the, you know, the surveillance video where they were looking into the backpack, the DNA, all of that seems to have been a dead end. If they're making this statement right now asking the public for help, it sounds like if there is going to be any break in this case, it's going to come from some public, from the public somewhere from some tip, and that's what they're desperately asking for.

[CeCe Moore]

Yeah.

[Fox News Host]

And the heartbroken family said that they miss their mother deeply and won't find peace until she is home. They say, of course we cannot grieve. We can only ache and wonder. And I think we can all understand where they're coming for with that statement, which is why it's so important to get this woman home or to get answers to this unsolved mystery. So far, Josh, we wish we had more time. We do.

[William Bill Cannon]

You know, I really believe that based on the language that the family uses, and it's very, very sad, but I believe that the family has resigned themselves to the fact that Nancy Guthrie is not alive. You know, and even sadder because now they just want, they want her remains. They want proof that their mother is no longer alive. And a very sad situation. Alien Kelly from the chat. Volunteer groups need to be searching for Nancy. They're asking for help. They've been offered help, but they don't take them up on their offer. You know, Alien Kelly excuse, let me get to you again, Aileen Kelly, I agree with you. In fact, I've done work with or had them on my show. Texas Equus, Midwest Equus, a fantastic organization. And then the other organization from Louisiana, they have offered their help. They have offered to come on and search and apparently they were turned down. God knows why. I don't know why. That would seem to me like a no brainer. A no brainer to have these people search. The Cajun Navy was is the one from Louisiana. They're free. They're volunteering their services. Why not Take them up on it. And they have found missing people before. They have found missing remains before. They're very successful. They're very good at it. I don't know why Sheriff Nanos has not agreed to allow them. It could be a jurisdictional thing. He doesn't want to be shown up by them. But if it is that, that's ridiculous. Bundle B from the chat cameras used to work off computers, and cameras companies and browsers went to phone apps only. So lots of elderly stopped paying subscriptions. Well, I think the FBI can gain access to her camera system and they have already gotten some photographs that were thought not to be available because she did not pay her subscription. However, they were able to pull them up. You know, one of the things that I think is going to help solve this case, of course, is the commingled DNA and investigative genetic genealogy. And any of you folks that are following true crime and aren't versed in investigative genetic genealogy, you should still, you should just have an understanding of, in fact, what is it and how does it work. It's absolutely fascinating. But yet, on the other hand, it's complicated. Yet CeCe Moore, who is the premier, probably I'd call her the don or the pope of investigative genetic genealogy nationally, she's the expert and she has a way of explaining it that is understandable to the layperson. And I'm going to play a little bit of CeCe Moore because I think this case will eventually get solved through investigative genetic genealogy. Here's CeCe Moore.

[News Anchor/Reporter]

CeCe, thank you again for doing this. And I just want to start first with genetic genealogy. Can you kind of break down just for people at home, what is this?

[CeCe Moore]

Genetic genealogy is the combination of using DNA and documentary records to learn more about someone's family tree. Traditionally, we used it to identify long dead ancestors. Everybody has what we call a brick wall in their family tree where they can't get past a certain point in the paper trail or the records. DNA can often help us get over that brick wall and learn more about our distant ancestors. And next, we started using it to help adoptees and people of unknown parentage find their biological families. And now we're using it to help law enforcement identify people from their DNA. We're only allowed to use it for violent crimes or to identify Jane and John does who died without their identification.

[News Anchor/Reporter]

And we know that this is something that the Pima County Sheriff's Department is looking at when it comes to the Nancy Guthrie case. How long can it take, though, when you have a potential DNA sample And you go through this route of genetic,

[CeCe Moore]

genetic genealogy, it can take quite a bit of time. Now fortunately, the sheriff sent the DNA to a private lab that is kind of a one stop shop. They're great at extracting the DNA from the evidence and then creating two separate profiles. The one that's uploaded to codis, the type of profile law enforcement has used for decades, and then the different type of profile that we need for genetic genealogy. And so it will save time to send it there because they were able to treat both of those profiles in parallel. So we don't lose time when they don't get a CODIS hit, they can jump right to the genetic genealogy. Once they get that profile created, which is hundreds of thousands of genetic markers across the genome. I hear it's a mixture, in this case, at least one of the samples. Then they have to work with the bioinformatic scientists to separate out that DNA and make sure that they are working on the person of interest DNA. Then once that's done. Done, it's uploaded to the databases that have agreed to work with law enforcement. On the genealogy side, unfortunately, even though There are over 50 million people who have taken direct consumer DNA tests, the top three companies have barred law enforcement's use.

[William Bill Cannon]

So think of that. The top three companies in the genetic genealogy, you know, people that will charge a fee to find your ancestors. And there's a bunch of them, the top three have refused access to law enforcement. So many, many crimes, many, many violent crimes will go unsolved because these genetic genealogical companies want to tell their customers, their consumers, that we don't allow the police to use it because some people may opt out if they know that. But why not ask them if they would allow their profile to be used in an investigative genealogical company? Because so far the top three. So now when we talk about investigative genetic genealogy, the FBI of course is building their own pool. But the FBI, as soon as we hear about DNA, we think about codis, the combined DNA Index system, which has two categories of DNA. Convicted offender, that DNA goes in there from the convicted offender into the FBI's pool and then forensic DNA, unidentified DNA that comes from a crime scene that's not identified. So those two types of DNA, what CC Moore is talking about right now, are genealogical sites that people try to find lost loved ones. People want to try their family members. But as she said, the top three don't allow use by law enforcement.

[CeCe Moore]

And so we are limited to the three smallest databases, GEDmatch, Family Tree, DNA and DNA Justice. So they will Upload that raw data file to those databases where it's compared against everyone in the database that has agreed to work with law enforcement. And so then we get what's called a match list. But our match list is different than codis. We are not going to find that exact person. We are looking for relatives, and we can work with second, third, fourth, fifth cousins, and sometimes even beyond that to reverse engineer the family tree of this person of interest based on who they're sharing DNA with.

[William Bill Cannon]

So pretty amazing. And for you folks that covered the Brian Kohberger case, the Idaho four murders of those four students that were murdered on 11, 13, 20, 22, I believe it was, right? They. They were murdered by Brian Coburger, who pled guilty. And initially, the DNA that was recovered on the button of the knife sheath identified his father. And from that DNA match, they identified Bryan Kohberger. So we have to hope that this DNA inside Nancy Guthrie's home, and it could take six months, could take a year, that we identify the perpetrators that committed this horrific crime. This is Mike Borlow of Lexicon Valley, and I'm Bob Garfield. Are you one of those people who sometimes uses words?

[Tom Winter]

Do you communicate or acquire information with, you know, language?

[William Bill Cannon]

Hey, us too. So join us on Lexicon Valley to chew over the history, culture, and many mysteries of English, plus some lice cracks. Find us on one of those apps where people listen to podcasts. Back to CC Moore.

[CeCe Moore]

So the people that show up on that match list are really partial matches. They might only share 1% of their DNA, maybe even less, but that means that they have a common ancestor with that unknown suspect or person of interest. And so our job is to identify who those common ancestors are between the matches. Right? Because we know who they are, we can build their family trees. So we're looking for patterns, overlaps, triangulations between the family trees of those individuals. So we're not just working with one match. We're working with a whole network, often a dozen matches, sometimes up to three dozen matches. And we're looking how all of those matches combine into one family tree. Who's that? One person or immediate family that is related to all of those people sharing significant amounts of DNA with our unknown suspect. Now, when we say significant, again, that can be a very small amount, but it helps us to piece back together that person of interest, family tree, ancestor by ancestor. We build forward in time looking for the descendants of those sets of ancestors and how it all converges.

[William Bill Cannon]

So you may think some folks in the chat are saying, oh, why does it take so long? I think that Cece Moore just made something that is very, very difficult. Sounds simple the way she explained it. And she has a knack for doing that. She's very good at explaining what occurred. And I think that she's amazing. And I think that that is how this case is going to be solved. You know, there's been so many different theories about this case, and I have had the occasion to have retired Orange County District attorney, Assistant District Attorney Matt Murphy on my show, and he has a take on this case that's a lot different than many of the other talking heads. And he comes from a tremendous career as a prosecutor in Orange County, California. I just want to thank Adrian Hall. Thank you so much for the $3 super sticker. Very much appreciated. I hope you're subscribed, but welcome. Thank you so much. So I want to play a little bit of Matt Murphy. He's a very bright guy and he's got great experience. I said as a prosecutor. Here he is.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

On the More about the cases, former Orange county homicide prosecutor Matt Murphy. Good morning.

[Matt Murphy]

Good morning.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

How important is it in an investigation for investigators to know that they are indeed communicating with the kidnappers?

[Matt Murphy]

You know, guys, I this is one of those things. I did homicides for 17 years, and I this is one of those rare occasions that I really hope I'm wrong. I don't think there are any kidnappers.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

They.

[Matt Murphy]

This was a. I think this was a body removal from the boom.

[William Bill Cannon]

I that was to me, when he said that, I was a little bit shocked. He said right out of the box. This was no kidnapping. This was a body removal. This was a murder. Right straight out of the box. This was a murder. But I don't know if Matt Murphy, I don't doubt his experience, his knowledge and his reasons for believing this, but I don't think he significantly answers the why. And I want to know the why. This is Matt Murphy again, very beginning.

[Matt Murphy]

I think we live in a time. I don't know how many scam messages you get per day, but I get at least one where I'll get a fake text message. And what they did, and they kind of had to, is they, they appeal to the public. Whenever you do that, every person that's got a good heart who wants to help calls in with tips. Hey, I saw a van. I heard a weird noise. A lot of good people come out who want to help. And you get to chase all those leads down and spend resources doing that. You also get all the loons who Come out. You know, it's the werewolves that did it, blah, blah, blah. And that, that happens on every appeal to the public, Every case I ever worked with the FBI. If you appeal to the public, you get that sort of thing. But we live in a modern era where you also get scammers. And they already arrested one in Hawthorne, California, not far from where I am now. It's utterly parasitic. It's horrible. I hope they prosecute them all, but I don't believe there are kidnappers. I think this was a body removal from the very beginning. The blood droplets, she was obviously injured inside the house. One of the big myths in this case, guys, is that she was alive when her pacemaker separated from the Apple Watch. That's not necessarily the case. The pacemakers keep going after the heart has stopped. A lot of people don't know that unless technology has radically changed since the last elderly person with a pacemaker. I, you know, I work one of those cases before pacemakers keep going. Anybody that runs a funeral home will tell you that it's a problem with cremations. So again,

[William Bill Cannon]

he comes up with this hypothesis. He comes up with this theory. The why? Why? So these people targeted Nancy Guthrie. They went in there and just murdered her, and then they took the body with. I'd like to hear from the chat what you folks think. I mean, why? You know, and, you know, all the people that have weighed in on this case, all the alleged experts, right? And it was agreed that perhaps it was three or four things, right? It was a burglary. Okay. Many people dismissed that right away, right? It was a home invasion gone bad. Right? Everyone dismissed that. But now it's looking more likely it was a straight out hit that she was targeted to be murdered. And four, it was a kidnapping. And Matt Murphy, and I'm going to play a little bit more of him, he says that all of the letters to Harvey Levin, to tmz, they were all false. They were all absolute. So he's the only one that's really jumping on this right away and saying that. Because in the very beginning, many FBI experts said this is no kidnapping. Something's wrong here. I don't get it. This is Matt Murphy again.

[Matt Murphy]

Look, and again, this is based on just what's been available publicly. It's only my opinion, but I think she was dead inside the house.

[News Anchor/Reporter]

So obviously, we've seen these, these appeals by the family, and then, you know, that were very scripted. And then we see Savannah Guthrie obviously appealing to the public, going off script and talking directly to the Public, Is the family aware that these ransom notes are not real? What are they in on what the FBI might be thinking?

[William Bill Cannon]

Well, the.

[Matt Murphy]

Whenever you have a missing case and you're dealing with the loss of a loved one, it is the worst thing anybody can ever experience. Experience too. Guys, it's death is horrible. We all go through that. Death due to murder is the, is the worst of the worst. And death due to a missing person, when you're not sure, it just, it creates apoplectic grief and you have the, you know, it's called suffering hope. You've got these families, so of course they're going to hold out hope that it's real. And the FBI has to treat them like it's real. Which is one of the things that is so insidious and awful about the people who try to take advantage of situations like this. By calling in, they're helping the murderer. I think personally, look, and this is my bias because my sympathies are, are totally with the family here, especially the, the, the, the kids of this poor woman. But I think they should prosecute these scammers as accessories after the fact to murder. So I think that there should be, you know, I think there should be a hammer brought down on them because this is not okay. Because the person who benefits most is the killer or killers. And the person, the people who suffer most are the poor innocent families.

[News Anchor/Reporter]

So what's your, so what's your theory, Matt? I mean, we know they've searched the, the sister's house. They were searching the septic tank. Or could this just be random violence?

[Matt Murphy]

You know, right now, guys, it could be anything. Tucson has a history that a lot of people don't know about. Tucson has kidnappings for ransom all the time. The problem is they're all cartel related. So that doesn't fit. When I first heard about this, my mind after four years in sexual assault and 17 and homicide was this could be a sex offender. But removing a body exponentially increases your risk of getting caught if you're the bad guy. So that also doesn't fit. Could be she walked in on a berg, but a burglary, you know, they were very affirmative at the beginning. Of course, I haven't read any of the files. I haven't seen anything inside the house. But I sure saw those blood droplets on the outside. That reminds me of a case that I have of a missing body. Judy Balat. We still never recovered the body. We prosecuted her, she's still in prison, killed her boyfriend. And the blood droplets outside were from A body removal. So look, the way you work these cases from an investigative standpoint is you do concentric rings. You start with the people that are closest and you systematically and methodically eliminate them. You get into their cell phones, you get into their computers, and you try to figure out if there's a beef, if there's any sort of conflict. And you concentrically broaden that ring. You start with the immediate family, then you go into people who work for the home. You look at neighbors, you broaden the circle. When you prosecute these is you kind of do the same thing in front of a jury, but you do it opposite. You start out in a whodunit with the entire population of the earth. You can eliminate China, you can eliminate everybody who's in Europe. You can eliminate stuff and you just goo. You go backwards into it. But look, there's a. There's an adage in Southern California, it's the same desert. If you get a body into the Pacific Ocean or you get a body into the Mojave and you have enough time to bury it, you don't find them in the water, typically. In fact, the vast majority of times you don't. And you don't find them in the desert. And there's a great opening in casino and great in a. In a very morbid, dark way now and again, guys, I can't emphasize how much I hope I'm wrong. I have no inside information on this. But that opening monologue with Joe Pesci when he talks about holes out in the desert solving problems, that's where my mind goes with this poor lady. And once again, I hope I'm wrong. I hope I'm wrong. I hope I'm wrong. But this doesn't look good. And look, the good part is if they get a suspect, guys, I prosecuted five. Nobody murders. You can still do that. You just need the evidence to prove who did it.

[News Anchor/Reporter]

Well, thank you, Matt. Murder.

[William Bill Cannon]

So pretty interesting hypothesis here. Different, right? At first he thought even about a sex crime, but he quickly drew that back because he said most of those crimes in Arizona and they have a history of having kidnappings, are cartel related. So some of the things he was weighing, he was obviously very thoughtful about, of thinking about what this might be. But no one's coming up with. Everyone's coming up with a hypothesis, but no one is coming up with the why. And as I said, he's the first person that I have heard that has said that he believes that this, this could have been just, just a straight up murder. A straight out murder. But one of the things we haven't heard a lot about is the district attorney's office. How is the district attorney of Pima County? How are they working on this case? There's got to be lots, probably hundreds of subpoenas involved in this case. And specifically for financial records, right? Digital records, all kinds of information records, document records that they would need, but we're not hearing anything. And wouldn't that be Investigation 101 to do a check on Nancy Guthrie's finances and then, for that matter, her family, and we haven't heard anything about that. Could it be that they've done it, but that the FBI and the Pima county sheriff's office have kept that very close to the vest? This is Brian Enten.

[Brian Enten]

They seemed especially interested in the front door, which is, of course, where, you know, we saw the blood drops. And then they opened the door, they went in. There was some speculation that they could be locksmiths, although I'm not sure that really makes any sense. But they were here for about an hour, and then they were gone. Jesse.

[News Host/Interviewer]

Brian, I want your take on what the sheriff had to say about getting definitely closer to a break. But let me just get to Joseph real quick. Joseph, I understand you might have two theories about what may have happened to Nancy that we might not be thinking of.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

Well, yeah, I mean, first off, I think that, you know, going with what Brian is saying about the blood deposition there in. In the front at the door, I think that that is significant because this is an act of violence. And, you know, we have confirmed, or they have confirmed at least, that that is Mrs. Guthrie's blood that was deposited there. And I have my own thoughts about the nature of the deposition and what it kind of stems from. And that was a sudden taking, if you will, the one shot there where you have that kind of expirated blood that is in that large patch, you've got the larger, larger elements of blood there. That expirated blood, which I think are the tiny little dots right there, that's evidence of somebody probably coughing, you know.

[William Bill Cannon]

Expirated? Yeah, like coughing or sneezing. And because of that, you know, blood stain pattern analysis, they just list three types. Low impact, medium impact, and high impact. High velocity, you know, low velocity, medium velocity, and high velocity. And the. The higher the velocity of. Of the speed that the blood droplet hits a surface, the tinier it is. For example, a gunshot would be tiny little pin pricks on a surface if, in fact, the blood stain pattern was caused by a gunshot or Sneezing out,

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

blood deposition from right there and that. And this blood is not indicative of saying having cut on your hand and it just kind of free falling.

[News Host/Interviewer]

And then you have this other idea about her age and her being a vulnerable victim.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

Yeah, absolutely. Do you guys realize how many cases I've worked over the course of my career in Atlanta and New Orleans that involved a ransom?

[William Bill Cannon]

That's amazing. Right?

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

You know, the case, everyone, elder abuse,

[William Bill Cannon]

everyone expected him to say, do you guys have any idea of how many cases I've been involved in? And he listed double two triple states for. With a kidnapping for ransom. And the answer was zero. That was an unexpected answer, if you ask me, but it was zero. And so he's just sort of putting a stamp on how rare a kidnapping for ransom is. Go back to Joseph Scott Morgan here.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

It involved ransom. Zero. You know, the cases I have worked, elder abuse, I've had people that have taken advantage of the elderly because they knew that they had money and they bum rush them into their house and they snatch them out of there, or they do terrible things like murder inside of the house. You know, she's, she is a much more valuable target to them if they had foreknowledge of whose, you know, whose mother she was.

[William Bill Cannon]

That.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

That doesn't take a deep dive here. And so if they think that they can get anything out of her. So I think that that comes to local knowledge, you know, who knows this is this somebody's, you know, grandson that might be in the neighborhood that has some knowledge that's been talking about this for a protracted period of time?

[Matt Murphy]

Right.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

I want to wonder if it's gang related. I wonder what they're pressing relative to the gang associations in Pima county, because this, this smacks of this relative to targeting her, seeking her out.

[News Host/Interviewer]

And let me, Brian, I'll give you a chance to respond to that, since you've been on the ground and know this case better than anybody else.

[William Bill Cannon]

You know, I, I wanted, I want to ask, you know, rhetorically, sort of, if Pima county has a gang problem and specifically kidnappings or elder abuse of that stuff, wouldn't they have numerous members of this gang identified in some kind of chart in their detective bureau, in their offices, in their homicide bureau, would this just come out of nowhere that they don't know about this? No. Police departments keep records of perpetrators, past crimes, organizations, organized crime, they make charts and they follow that. And it's just very competent law enforcement that you must do this. And if they don't and they're just surprised. Oh, this could be someone from Mexico, but we have no evidence of it and we have no history of gangs. But yet they're saying that these gangs exist in Tucson, exist in Pima County. Then is there a record? That's what I would like to know. And how come no one is talking about that? Or are we just getting every day new hypotheses, new guesses and new talking heads just putting their theory down so that they can be recognized if something comes true? I said that, you know, I don't know if anyone's been correct yet, but

[News Host/Interviewer]

also I wanted your response to where the sheriff says they're definitely closer to finding a suspect. But I mentioned before all the seemingly gaps in this investigation, or at least what they know.

[Brian Enten]

Yeah.

[Joseph Scott Morgan]

And he.

[Brian Enten]

He's been saying that for a while. There are a few other things he said today that really stood out to me. One, he was asked about that new surveillance video of the car from two and a half miles away. He said that it is part of the investigation. But he said that they are looking at hundreds of thousands of cars, which my jaw kind of dropped like. Hundreds of thousands? How could that possibly be? I don't know if it's from traffic cameras, but that wasn't really encouraging to hear him say that. The other interesting thing was in terms

[William Bill Cannon]

of the backpack, you know, that sheriff saying that there were hundreds of thousands of cars under investigation in regards to the 12 cars they were looking for from the early morning hours of the kidnapping. That is such an irresponsible statement. This sheriff should not be allowed to talk on behalf of this department. He's steering everything the wrong way. He's making people think there's not a competent investigation going. I believe he should be quiet, you know, and let someone else be the spokesperson for Pima county and for this

[Brian Enten]

major case the suspect was wearing that they've been saying was bought at Walmart all along. And we know they were going through the Walmart sales records today. He said that they believe the suspect may have gotten it secondhand. So he didn't necessarily buy the backpack himself from Walmart, which is something we haven't heard the sheriff say before.

[News Host/Interviewer]

Brian, real quick, about 40 seconds to Joseph's theory. If someone bum rushed her, jumped in, maybe was trying to get something from the house. Do you know if anything was stolen from her house?

[Matt Murphy]

Not that we know of, no.

[Brian Enten]

And I heard what Joseph was saying about the blood. One thing I've thought about is I think it may be an indication that she was alive when she left the house. Because if she was already dead, you would think, I mean, I hate to talk like this, but you think they would have wrapped her up or why would there be those blood spots coming if she was already dead? So I think it's a sign that she was alive when she left.

[News Host/Interviewer]

Gentlemen, I wish we had more.

[William Bill Cannon]

You know something, I don't think Brian Hinton's right about that. She could have been carried. She could have been dripping blood from a wound or from her nose or something like that. So I don't think he's guessing that that could be a sign that she was alive. We heard Matt Murphy again and he could be wrong too, but he's got, I think, better law enforcement credentials than Brian Enten. And don't get me wrong, I love Brian Enten. I think he's a great reporter. But you can't just. He's making sort of an assumption. And there's so many people doing the hypothesis on this case, so many people guessing what the hell happened here. And again, a lot of it is guessing. And you know, yesterday we had a little bit of Garagos, the famous attorney Gerrigo said, I'm going to put him up because he comes up with some interesting theory also. And this is from a defense attorney.

[Defense Attorney Mark Geragos]

Appreciate you being here. And let's start with this new footage from the Uber. This was hours before Nancy was taken. Do you believe investigators are looking. What do you think they're looking for in this video that could help them find Nancy? Or is this just exhausting? Every single lead at this point, nearly 50 days in?

[Attorney Mark Geragos]

It's always hard to speculate when it's this far out. When you get 50 days out on any kind of an investigation, you're probably at best 45 days from anything that is substantial. So what they're doing now is trying to exhaust every potential lead that they can find. I, I'm not sure that I agree with the setup here when we say this may be the last video of her. I suspect that there is or they have some kind of geofencing or video at some point, either before she entered the house or as she's entering the house or as she's exiting that evening. I think what they've done here, if I had to guess, is they have located some geo tracking type evidence.

[William Bill Cannon]

So when he's talking about geofencing, geofencing is a science. And the FBI has great equipment, they have great analysts that do this, whereby law enforcement, using the technology they have, can pull up all cell Phones, all laptops, all electronic devices being used in a specific area at a specific time. Could this target the killers that early morning that night? But here we have other things being thrown into the mix that they messed with the WI fi somehow they were able to block the WI fi or shut the WI fi off. I don't know if they have definitive evidence of that. But geofencing is an amazing technology and you can bet that the FBI is doing everything they can possibly do to a identify any cell phones being used at the hour and the minute that Nancy Guthrie was kidnapped. Laptops, any other things that could be used to identify a perpetrator. So when Geragos is talking about geofencing, that is in fact what he is talking about.

[Attorney Mark Geragos]

That suggests that a similar somebody who was in the area weeks before and then eight days before also corresponds to the night before. They have the ability to get the cell phone data and some other tracking kinds of data from phones. And they may be zeroing, zeroing in on that. It would be very interesting if that's where they are, because. Because then they could kind of reverse engineer from there who it is, why they were there, and see if they could sweat somebody.

[Defense Attorney Mark Geragos]

The man at the center of the investigation in this disappearance, Pima County Sheriff Chris Nanos. Of course, he's now facing a recall brought forward by an Arizona Republican congressional candidate. What do you make of this move? Is this all politics or in your opinion, are there some real issues with his leadership?

[Attorney Mark Geragos]

I think it's both, actually. I think it is politics. At the same time, I've been critical and I think others, including very people who tilt pro law enforcement, have been enormously critical of the job that's been done here.

[Defense Attorney Mark Geragos]

What is the largest piece of criticism that you actually think holds water?

[William Bill Cannon]

I'm going to say that before Garagos has asked that question, what do you think the largest mistake was? Number one, and we've been saying it on this show from day one, is the messaging. The messaging has been horrible. You have to use the public. You have to put out correct information so the public gives in turn. They call the tips line and give good information. The messaging is so off and so wrong all the time that I think the public is confused as well as the press. And I said a million times that the press for the police department in my days on the NYPD can be your best friend or your worst enemy. And if you use them properly, they could be your best friend if you use them improperly, as they did here. And vis a vis watching the press walk all over the property of Nancy Guthrie during this investigation, to me was cringeworthy. And that also is a responsibility of Sheriff Nanos and the Pima County Sheriff's Office. And they did a horrible job protecting the crime scene. Number two. I could be number two, or let's say number three was sending the DNA evidence to a private lab and not the FBI lab in Quantico, Virginia. Other thing was closing the crime scene after one day. Horrific. That crime scene needed to be secured for more than one day. In fact, they closed it and then they reopened it. That's problematic when the case goes to court because I believe there will be an arrest during this case. But now you close the crime scene. How is he going to even explain that back to NewsNation?

[Attorney Mark Geragos]

I think that initially the failure to really kind of keep the crime scene in such a way pristine, if you will, is one of the great kind of bonehead moves, if you will, in this whole case, because that is where you had the. The greatest ability to gather and collect evidence that could eventually be used. And once you trample over that and once you don't preserve that in some kind of a pristine condition, using the word twice, but that is, it's hard to undo and it just provides all kinds of mischief, if you will, later on.

[William Bill Cannon]

So, you know, some, some really good information there and some really good comments in the chat that I'm going to bring a couple of them up right now. But so many, so many different opinions and I, I don't want to focus on Sheriff Nano. So I think that hopefully they have the investigation going the correct way. And I think that. Yeah, this is from Pauline Buckles. I think, though, Bill sending the DNA to a private lab was best, as Quantico would have done that anyway, because how the perps aren't in codis. Well, Pauline, it doesn't just matter. Codis, the FBI also deals with investigative genetic genealogy. They are capable of doing that type of test, that type of search. So sending it outside of law enforcement to a different lab, I don't think. I don't think it was a great idea. I think that they should have stayed with law enforcement and stayed with who they knew, but it sort of pointed the finger at. Is there a problem between the FBI and Pima County Sheriff's Office? This is from the Today show.

[News Reporter]

Now, since Nancy Guthrie disappeared, Savannah and her family pleading for renewed attention to their mom's case, saying in a new statement to their Tucson neighbors, someone knows something. It's possible a member of this community has information that they do not even realize is significant. We hope people search their memories, especially around the key timelines of January 31st and the early morning hours of February 1st, as well as the late evening of January 11th. No detail is too small. It may be the key. Up until now, authorities have not said why investigators have been looking for footage from January 11, but new this morning, Pima County Sheriff Chris Nanos tells NBC News it's because Google initially told investigators that this surveillance image they retrieved from Nancy's nest camera of a man at her front door was believed to be from that date. But Nanos says Google later took that back, telling them they could not definitively peg the photo to that day. Neither the FBI nor Google have commented on this timeline. Over the weekend, our NBC affiliate KVOA News 4 Tucson aired a moving special about the case, including new details on the impact Nancy's had in their community. Former University of Arizona professor Jacqueline Sharkey says Nancy played a pivotal role in helping save the university's Poison and Drug Information center, which nearly closed due to budget cuts. She says Nancy helped gather 20,000 signatures sent to the governor.

[Defense Attorney Mark Geragos]

Thousands of Arizonans have benefited from the poison center in the 30 years since Nancy had a major role in leading it.

[News Reporter]

Nancy's impact reflected in the outpouring of love across the city.

[Tom Winter]

Our hearts are in it and she's

[William Bill Cannon]

always on her mind.

[News Reporter]

In that special, the Guthrie sharing their ongoing heartache, saying we miss our mom with every breath. We want to celebrate her beautiful and courageous life, but we cannot do that until she is brought to a final place of rest. And also in that statement, the family is asking people in the area to again consult their camera footage, their journal notes, text messages, any observations or conversations that in retrospect may.

[William Bill Cannon]

So I just want to make a comment. It seems that 51 days in and the police and the family is asking for more leads and more tips. And check your video, check your ring camera, check your cell phone video that law enforcement doesn't have so much on this case, do they? They maybe don't have a clear direction. They maybe do not have a personal persons of interest that's concerning, right? 51 days in, however, no one is saying that this is a cold case. The resources, no doubt, that have been assigned to this case are tremendous. Going back to the Today show, they hold significance.

[News Reporter]

And guys, they reiterated their sole focus is on finding Nancy and bringing her home.

[William Bill Cannon]

All right, Liz Kreutz for us there. Liz, thank you so much. Let's bring In Tom Winter, NBC's National Law Enforcement and intelligence correspondent Tom, of course, has followed this case from the very beginning. First of all, hard to believe it has been more than, you know, someone in the chat. Barry Straw Blue Zebra 9X Ray. When are they expecting the DNA results back? You know, at Barry Straw Blue Z9X, I don't think they can give you a specific date when they expect the DNA test to come back because this, after all, is investigative genetic genealogy. A lot more difficult than just taking a comparison and putting it into CODIS and seeing if you get a hit. This is much more difficult. So to answer your question, I don't know. I don't think they can give a definitive date. Oh, the DNA is going to be ready on this date, I believe. They can't do that. Seven weeks now. Are authorities any closer, Tom, any closer to solving this case? And do we even know what they're focusing on right now?

[Tom Winter]

Well, yes and no. And the reason why I say yes is because they've had a lot of opportunity here to run down leads. And we knew that they were going to go after a whole group of people that have bought that backpack or maybe bought that vest and bought it from Walmart. You can go through, did somebody pay cash? Might take a little while longer to figure out who that person is. So you've now exhausted a lot of those leads. You can rule a lot of things out. Of course, that pivots to the no part of the conversation, which is that it doesn't appear that at the moment. And based on the fact that the Guthrie family continues to call for somebody from the Tucson area to pick up the phone and make that call, there's a million dollar reward in this case. They're hoping that's a game changer for somebody who maybe has a significant other or a spouse that they think could be jammed up in this, that that million dollars gets them out of that situation, allows them to pick up the phone and make that call today, that's really where we're at. Is that now you're starting to see scrounge around for additional leads here and again, hoping for those phone calls.

[William Bill Cannon]

Savannah, you know, I just want to make from the chat, Jason Born, 867, and he's responding to Michelle Rhodes, 2310. Right. So why didn't Savannah pay the ransom when she had the family clearly offered to pay. And I'll answer that for you. Because with all those ransom notes they were getting, there was no proof of life. None of them offered a proof of life, which means they're full of Shit. Because if there's a kidnapping and the ransom payer asks for a proof of life and the kidnapper refuses or cannot give a proof of life, run, run away, do not pay the ransom because they don't even have your loved one. They just. They scam artists. And that's why they. They wouldn't pay. And that was. They were advised by law enforcement not to pay. Our family were asking people to look at videos, et cetera, from ring cameras or just recollection of what happened the night that Nancy went missing.

[Brian Enten]

But also, I thought this was very

[William Bill Cannon]

interesting, asking about that date, January 11th.

[Brian Enten]

That seemed different from what we've heard before.

[Tom Winter]

Yeah. So the reason why apparently this popped up is that because when Google, remember, they went back onto servers to try to find fragments of video that existed. It wasn't like they just called up Nancy's accountant, said, oh, here's all the video from the. From the various nights. So there's a bit of a question as to whether or not some of the video that we've seen, and it's this individual without the backpack. You know, you remember, and you're looking at this person here, you remember the person as they approach the door, they've got the backpack on. It's clearly visible. There's a number of different images that we have, but we have this image where the backpack's not on. So is that from a different night? Was it from earlier in that night when the backpack is off? And if it is a different night, is it January 11th, or is it some other date? And just because there's so many things we don't know about this case at the moment, that that's the reason why this January 11th date has come up. But I think the broader call here is go back and look. Continue to go back and look at those images. And even if you think it's a small detail, still pick up the phone. So important.

[William Bill Cannon]

You know, I really think that they have to, you know, really work with these images they have. Make the video images of the perpetrators, enhance it, make a color sketch from it. Right. Law enforcement never made a sketch in this case. And I'm baffled by that. The lady from the Houston Police Department that was a sketch artist for 42 years, she drew this sketch, but there is no official sketch by either the Pima County Sheriff's Office or by the FBI. Why? I want to know why. It doesn't make any sense to me. And then when we see these pictures, like, I would imagine that the FBI has enhanced these pictures. Look, they they were able to say that, oh, this person is 5, 9 to 5 10, anywhere from 185 to 215 pounds. They, they described a lot about this suspect, this perpetrator, but yet it was never enhanced, at least not for the purpose of sharing it with the public. And then all the things we heard about the backpack and only sold at Walmart. What are some of the results of that? Have you got a list of people who. And you don't have to identify the people you know? Yes. Based on the, the Walmart list of how many people bought this exact backpack, we have 200 names, 300, whatever they have, but we don't know none of the information came back upon that. But I, I definitely. This is an identification case, you know, and you see up on, on the screen right now, was the kidnapping staged? It just so many bizarre things and, and, and so many very. On the screen right now. Science solves it. And I believe that, you know, investigative genetic genealogy will solve this case, but, you know, it's going to take a while. And you know, they had, we had spoken about this on yesterday's show. How long will the genetic genealogy take to come back? And also can investigators go back to the scene and collect more DNA? And that's a problem now. And the reason it's a problem is because once you close the crime scene, you open it up for the family or friends or anyone to go back in the house. Any decent defense attorney can then argue the crime scene was destroyed. They just let. How do we know that DNA from people that came in after the date of this crime didn't leave DNA? And that's an absolutely valid, valid assumption. So the new enhancement images that the FBI did, doorbell camera footage, why wasn't it done much earlier? Right. Movement patterns near the home. They had to have pulled everyone's ring camera in the vicinity of Nancy Guthrie's home and look at, and study those images. We're hearing that the FBI has images from different dates of people in Nancy Guthrie's yard. So all of those things we want to know, suspects positioning and behavior. You know, look at this. Just in looking at that, that video of the perpetrator, you can tell several things. And you know, one of the things that comes up very weird is the gun, the holster of the gun that he has the gun placed almost between his legs. Like, I've never seen anyone carry a gun that way in my entire police career. So is that indicative of something? Is that indicative of some gang? You could see it better here. You see the holster with his left hand on, on the, on the gun in the middle part of his body. And is that indicative of something, a gang member or something? And again, they visited all these gun ranges to find that out. And you know, we all know about the gloves and the how the glove came back or didn't come back or it came back not, not a hit. So now they are sort of rolling the dice. What's important? What haven't we done? What can we do? Jason? Jason born 867 I think the Mexican carry is a huge clue, Jason that's what you're calling it, a Mexican carry. Maybe you have information I don't. I've never seen anyone gun carry a gun in my police career like that. At Saturday moon, 16 millions of people, professionals, news media trying to figure out this very complicated in 50 plus days, there's still nothing. It's mind boggling. At Saturday Moon I agree with you and I think some of it could be also that, that they just haven't released the information. Some of the information, some of the solid information, some of the solid investigative tips they've gotten, some of the solid investigative steps they've taken at Casual observer from the chat@ Casual Observer 26 that was my question, Sergeant Cannon. I thought FBI experts in consumer products and Walmart Corporation employers all verified porch guys backpack was Ozark trails, not Adidas new 3 line casual observer 26 yes, they have identified the brand of it and they even went to the next step is how many was sold. But I don't think they can verify how many were sold perhaps through Amazon, you know, but they can verify how many of that very specific backpack was sold from Walmart. So that's a voluminous lead. That is a voluminous investigative task that the FBI and the Pima County Sheriff's Office took upon themselves. Now, the digital forensics in this case, right? And that was one of the things we thought is going to blow this case wide open, right? And, and it hasn't, right? No confirmed phone tied to the suspect, no GPS hits placing a known individual at the scene. WI FI disruption that remains unexplained. The WI fi detail continues to stand out and that suggests if they did try to shut down the WI fi planning, planning this case reconning. So the family is basically asking today, right, for anyone with information to come forward, for the person responsible to do the right thing and for Nancy to be brought home. This wasn't just an emotional plea. It was strategic to try to get someone to cooperate at this stage in the investigation family pleas are often used to apply pressure, trigger guilt or fear or shake loose new tips. And remember, there's still a substantial reward on the table. $1 million. Money changes behavior, right? And everyone, not everyone, but many people, have a shift in where the case is involving. Early on, investigators had to consider random home invasion a crime of opportunity. But at day 51, this is looking more like a targeted offender, possibly someone who knew Nancy's routine, someone comfortable enough to approach that home. And let's talk about entry. Right, let's talk about entry. There are signs this may not have been a chaotic break in or smash and grab scenario. This may have been controlled deliberate and fast. And that points to experience, confidence, possible prior criminal behavior. So what are the investigators? What are they doing? Where do they keep going? Re interviewing I always mention in a case where you hit a brick wall, what do you do? You go back, you start all over. You look at things you've done and you do them again. If anything was unanswered for you, do it over. Read the case folder numerous, numerous times. Talk to the other investigators, talk to the other detectives. What do you think? I don't know. What do you think? You know? That's how cases get solved. And we would call it hypothesizing and theorizing. My good friend Phil Grimaldi calls it spitballing. Whatever it's called in whatever jurisdiction the investigators are from, so, so very important. And this case, as I have said numerous times, this case will get solved. It's a matter of time. And we are getting very frustrated. And you can't even imagine how frustrated the Guthrie family is. They've got to be 10 times, 50 times more frustrated than anyone following this case. Right? So they recheck alibis, running down new tips from the reward tips. Right? Got to keep doing that. Cross referencing DNA with genealogical databases, analyzing vehicle movement patterns in the area. You know, we had always thought that the vehicle would be identified by a license plate reader, but so far that has not been the case. So here's a big question tonight, right? We all have a question in this case. And what's the big question? The big question is because at day 50, one of two things is happening. They don't know who did it or they know but don't have enough to arrest. I believe they do not know who did this. And based on what we're seeing, this case feels like it's moving toward the second category, that they may have some evidence or they may have a person that they're looking at. But they don't have enough evidence to arrest this person. So a family still waiting, investigators are still working, and a suspect who, whether they know it or not, is getting closer to being identified. So these cases don't just disappear, they build, they tighten. And one day they break wide open. So folks, hit the like button. Share this Stream Drop your thoughts in the chat. And most importantly, if you know anything about the Nancy Guthrie case, now is the time to come forward and help to solve this case. Because at day 51, there is no arrest. Folks, I would just like to remind everyone that Police off the Cuff is sponsored by Vandu on the Believe Network and I want to thank everyone for tuning in today. We're working hard on this case and we've followed this from the very beginning. Again, we're not boots on the ground in Arizona, but many of the people on Boots on the Ground have no more information than persons that are covering it from far away. And I want to thank all of the true crime community and especially all you new off the cuffers. We really appreciate appreciate you. I'm so happy that you follow us. I'm Bill Cannon from Police off the Cuff. Have a great night everyone. God Bless. See you next time.

[Alex Kanchowitz]

Hi, this is Alex Canceroitz. I'm the host of Big Technology Podcast, a longtime reporter and an on air contributor to cnbc. And if you're like me, you're trying to figure out how artificial intelligence is changing the business world and our lives. So each week on Big Technology I bring on key actors from companies building AI tech and outsiders trying to influence it, asking where this is all going. They come from places like Nvidia, Microsoft, Amazon and plenty more. So if you want to be smart with your wallet, your career choices, in meetings with your colleagues and at dinner parties, listen to Big Technology Podcast wherever you get your podcasts.

[William Bill Cannon]

If you like the show, please take a moment to rate, review and subscribe. It really does help the show to grow. Thank you for listening.