The Dangers of Police Work and What

Summary

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Law Enforcement Talk: True Crime and Trauma Stories

Episode: The Dangers of Police Work and What

Host: John "Jay" Wiley
Guest: Keith Groundsell
Date: May 10, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode brings a raw, first-person look at the realities—and dangers—of police work through the lens of Keith Groundsell. With 22+ years of law enforcement experience ranging from undercover operations to chief of police and international training, Groundsell shares the highs, lows, and unseen traumas of the job. The discussion moves well beyond classic “true crime” stories, delving into the psychological impact, family costs, systemic corruption, and the unexpected truths about deep undercover work. The hosts and guest also highlight the difficult process of rebuilding after trauma and coping with the cumulative toll of a law enforcement life.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Career Background and Undercover Work

[04:45]

• Groundsell began in community patrol (1998), gravitated to drug enforcement, and was recruited for undercover narcotics work.
• Worked undercover at multiple levels: city, county, federal (DEA), including deep cover assignments.
• Saw “eye-opening” drug trade realities in Kansas while with the DEA, especially the operations of Mexican cartels.
• Later transitioned into international police advising (Afghanistan, Haiti, Liberia), commanding special forces units.
• Rose to chief of police, where he fought local corruption and achieved dramatic crime reduction.

“I uncovered some corruption, blew the whistle on it, lost my job … fought really hard for about 14 months … we went from number 28 safest city in the state to number one.”
—Keith Groundsell [07:51]

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The Realities and Dangers of Deep Undercover

[12:44]; [14:57]

• There’s a distinction between plain clothes, short-term, and “deep cover” undercover—deep cover involving complete immersion, fabricated backgrounds, and long-term assignments, sometimes even including disinformation to weed out corrupt cops.
• Risks included not just exposure to criminals but also the stress of deceiving one’s own community, colleagues, and sometimes family.
• Undercover work can require engaging in a much broader spectrum of vice and criminal investigations than is commonly believed (not “just” buying drugs).

“Anytime anything popped up, if you specialize in undercover … vice, narcotics, gambling … murder for hire … we were there.”
—Keith Groundsell [15:03]

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Corruption: Inside and Outside the Department

[08:48]; [22:50]; [23:00]

• Groundsell describes whistleblowing on both political and police department corruption, resulting in personal and professional risk.
• Both men agree that coping with “bad cops” is a core challenge among good officers—policing their own is often the most distasteful part of the job, but necessary.

“If there’s one thing cops hate, good cops, it’s a bad cop. I’d rather take out one bad cop than 100 drug dealers any day of the week.”
—Keith Groundsell [22:50]

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Misconceptions about Police Work and Undercover Life

[16:01]; [19:00]; [27:07]

• Discuss the gap between Hollywood perception and reality—most officers don’t live glamorous lives or drive fancy cars, and undercover work is neither as dramatic nor as flashy as movies suggest.
• The “are you a cop” myth: Undercover officers don’t have to reveal themselves, contrary to what is seen on TV.

“The mindset of these people is just … whacked. But yeah, it’s funny, it’s comical. You gotta laugh about it sometimes, but you always gotta be on your toes.”
—Keith Groundsell [19:05]

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Psychological Toll and Family Impact

[27:53]; [33:48]

• Undercover assignments led to prolonged stress and personal sacrifice—not just for Groundsell, but his family as well.
• Isolation is part of the job; partners and families are often left in the dark or endure social stigma due to the officer’s secretive lifestyle.
• Writing became a key form of therapy and a bridge to healing.

“It’s mentally the most stressful thing I’ve ever done. … I developed stomach problems over the years, a nervous stomach. And just a lot of … physical things happened to me because of the stress.”
—Keith Groundsell [27:53]

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Trauma, Resilience, and Recovery

[37:55]; [39:24]

• After years of adrenaline-driven work, returning to “normal” life is nearly impossible—often, the high-risk mindset persists, leading officers to continually seek high-stakes work.
• Injury and forced retirement amplified the challenges; keeping busy and creative (such as writing) are vital tools for combating depression and PTSD symptoms.

"For me, writing the books was absolutely crucial … that time was a mental—I could have mentally broke down, but I decided to be productive. And I did the therapy writing the books."
—Keith Groundsell [39:24]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On the cost of corruption-fighting:

"It’s a very short walk from being officer of the year to being on the unemployment line. One day you’re a hero, the next day you’re a zero."
—John J. Wiley [08:48]

On protecting teams from political interference:

“As chief of police, my job was to ensure that my officers could do their job without any interference. So that meant that I took all the [heat] from the politicians.”
—Keith Groundsell [09:38]

On mental health and law enforcement culture:

“In a thin blue line, you don’t want to talk about your mental stresses because you look weak, which is a misconception … we had for many, many years.”
—Keith Groundsell [27:53]

On trusting your instincts in dangerous situations:

“My gut instinct is the greatest trait that I have. When the hair on the back of the neck stands up and your stomach starts to bubble, you better listen.”
—Keith Groundsell [36:50]

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Segment Timestamps & Contents

• [01:01] Host and guest introductions; books authored by Groundsell
• [04:45] Career overview; entering undercover work
• [07:51] Fighting corruption as a chief; whistleblower’s journey
• [12:44] Types of undercover work; distinctions and risks
• [14:57] Undercover procedures; working with confidential informants
• [16:24] Price of contract killings shock value; myths vs. reality
• [19:00] Movie & media misconceptions about policing
• [22:50] Dealing with “bad cops”; self-policing departments
• [27:53] Psychological stress, family life, secrecy
• [33:48] Mindset and survival tactics for undercover work
• [35:51] Hair-raising near-death experiences; trusting your gut
• [37:55] Post-policing challenges; seeking adrenaline, finding healing
• [39:24] Writing as therapy and memory
• [40:44] Where to find Groundsell’s books and resources
• [42:12] Final thanks and closing remarks

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About the Guest's Books

• A Narc's Tale (four-book series): Based on true stories (with identities/places changed), covering undercover operations at city, county, and federal levels.
• Over 350 photos/newspaper articles included for authenticity.
• Available at groundsoulbooks.com and Amazon.

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Takeaways

• The dangers of police work extend far beyond external threats; mental health, family stability, and professional reputation are all at risk.
• Undercover work demands compartmentalization and sacrifices that last for decades.
• Officers combating corruption often face internal and political backlash, even when their efforts increase community safety.
• Healing from trauma is possible, but rarely simple; creative outlets like writing and open conversations play a key role.

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Closing Thought

“God bless everyone that's listening.”
—Keith Groundsell [42:19]

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(Summary excludes all advertisements and promotional breaks)

Transcript

[Keith Groundsell]

Feeling uncertain by Life's challenges.

[John J. Wiley]

At InTouch.org you'll discover encouragement that lasts. With powerful sermons From InTouch Ministries, Dr.

[Keith Groundsell]

Charles Stanley, Daily devotionals, and resources designed to strengthen your faith, you'll find hope and wisdom for every season of your life. Don't wait. Visit intouch.org today and let God's word inspire your journey. That's intouch.org

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[John J. Wiley]

He's got more than 22 years experience in law enforcement, including working with the DEA and being a Chief of police. He's trained police departments across the world and he's the author of a series of books called Narc's Tales. Welcome to the Law Enforcement Talk Radio Show. In the Law Enforcement Talk Radio show, we are joined by special guest talking about their experiences, their realities, investigating crimes, police plus those who have experienced horrendous trauma, Police, first responders, military and victims of crime share their stories. Hi, I'm John J. Wiley. In addition to being a broadcaster, I'm also a retired police sergeant. Be sure to check out our website letradio.com and also like us on Facebook search for the Law Enforcement Talk Radio Show. Of all the radio stations in the United States, there are no other shows like the Law Enforcement Talk radio show. And on Facebook there's only one official page. Do a search on Facebook for the law Enforcement Talk Radio show and be sure to like the Law Enforcement Talk Radio show Facebook page. Calling us from Greenville, South Carolina, we have Keith Groundsell on the phone. Keith, thanks for being a guest on Law Enforcement Show. Very much appreciated.

[Keith Groundsell]

Hey Jade, thanks for having me.

[John J. Wiley]

It's a pleasure to have you here. Keith has a wealth of experience in law enforcement. He's got more than 22 years on the job at different levels, worked at DEA, he's been chief of police. He's worked with so many countries training their departments, I can't even keep track of them. And he's an author of a series of books called Narc's Tales. How many books are in this series?

[Keith Groundsell]

It's a four book series called A Narc's Tale based upon six years of working deep undercover at the city, county and federal levels.

[John J. Wiley]

And where can people get more information? I mean, I know they're available on Amazon, but you have a website, don't you?

[Keith Groundsell]

Absolutely. My website isground soul books.com and that's G R O U N S E L L Grounds B O O K S dot com. My last name is Ground without the D and cell. That's where that comes from. And there's an array of different videos and further information about the books on my website. You can also read Amazon reviews of A Narc's Tale the series.

[John J. Wiley]

Now the series is four books. Is it fiction based on facts?

[Keith Groundsell]

It's, it's based upon true stories. And of course we had to change the names and the locations to protect different individuals, including myself. So we had to classify it for legal reasons as a fiction story. But it's all based upon true stories. And there's over 350 photos and newspaper articles and different things to authenticate the different stories throughout the four book series.

[John J. Wiley]

Well, that's the only way you can really do it. If you do a fact wise, you just open yourself up for so much civil liability even.

[Keith Groundsell]

Absolutely.

[John J. Wiley]

The thing about written words, I don't know if you do this text and email, I always read something into it that's not intended to be there. And when I send something to someone, they always read something in there I don't intend. So like the spoken conversation seems to be so much better and so much more accurate.

[Keith Groundsell]

Absolutely. You know, the same, same thing. That's what my attorneys had said to me. Just be err on the side of caution. And I went ahead and went with their advice.

[John J. Wiley]

The other thing too, by the way, for people on social media, if you learn one thing out of this show, social media, Facebook, Twitter, it doesn't matter. It doesn't capture sarcasm. So you may be joking. You may have a real tongue in cheek delivery. When you type something, everybody reads it as, oh my goodness, did you see what Sozo said? So just don't do it. When we're talking, you can hear the tone of voice and all those things. I'm glad you're on the show. We've communicated a little bit beforehand. Your career, just a bird's eye view. Start to where you're at now.

[Keith Groundsell]

Absolutely. I started my career back in 1990, 1998 and as a uniform police officer through Community Patrol Division under a federal grant back in the 90s. And quickly I learned that I had a knack for, you know, Going after drug cases. It started out obviously very small and I always wanted to work undercover and I always had that ambition there. But we didn't have a large enough agency. So I did a little bit of part time undercover here and there. And eventually after three years on the force, I was recruited to go work for a much larger agency with a few hundred police officers. And I went to work there in about three couple days in orientation. They yanked me out of orientation and told me, you're no longer going to be working on uniform patrol. We're going to be signed undercover working narcotics. And it was supposed to be a few months and ended up being a year long undercover operation doing two different operations. From there I got recruited to go work for the sheriff's office, pretty much the same thing. They wavered my time on the road and put me right into vice narcotics. Continued working three years undercover for a large sheriff's office, one of the largest in the state of South Carolina. And from there I had ambitions to achieve the highest level of drug enforcement, which at the time I believe was the U.S. drug Enforcement Administration. And I applied. It took about two years to get hired on, got hired on with them and did that. I spent a couple years out in western Kansas and under the St. Louis Field Division, the Kansas City district office, and work there. And a lot of things happened and it was eye opening, to say the least, working with the different cartels and different levels of drug enforcement that I had never seen on the East Coast. And, and after a couple years, you know, total of six years working undercover, I was a little bit burned out and I wanted to change. And that's when I resigned from the feds and I started doing contracting with the U.S. department of State as a police advisor. I went straight to Afghanistan and over there I was a US Commander over their special forces unit, their SWAT teams, the riot teams, for a couple of years, got injured over there, came back home, eventually worked my way back into being able to work again and became the lead investigator for the largest prosecutor's office in the state of South Carolina. And did that until an opening came up to be chief of police in the town that I was currently living in, which was right next door to my hometown. So I had applied for that. They had about 50 applicants from across the nation. And I was blessed enough to be picked for that position. And went into that position, you know, very ambitious and a little naive, thinking that I was going to be able to make drastic changes to a culture that went well beyond problems inside the police department. I uncovered some corruption, blew the whistle on it, lost my job initially, fought really hard for about 14 months, was received. They reinstated me, got my job back. They had to give me full back pay for 14 months for about two and a half years. Things were wonderful. We went from the number 28 safest city in the state to number one safest city. We did community policing, drug enforcement, and that was, that was how we were successful. I ended up being involved in some indictments with corrupt mayor who was convicted in court.

[John J. Wiley]

No, no, wait a second. A corrupt politician?

[Keith Groundsell]

No, no way. Those exist around here. Not at all.

[John J. Wiley]

I think they're everywhere, to be honest with you.

[Keith Groundsell]

I agree with you wholeheartedly. Well then also there was, you know, some corruption involved. The police department members at the high ranking members prior to my time there. We ended up indicting a couple of them, the chief before me, but he was acquitted on his charges. They were dismissed prior to trial on a technicality. And then the head of investigations was pled guilty for tampering with evidence to cover up suspects in a murder and a rape. That was a cold case that we're about to solve. And, and so I basically kicked the hornet's nest and politically was under attack the entire time there. And eventually I was forced to resign and I went back into contracting overseas.

[John J. Wiley]

There's an old saying we had in my department. It's a very short walk from being officer of the year to being on the unemployment line. One day you're a hero, the next day you're a zero. And especially when it comes to corruption. And when I say corruption, it's not always about money. Political corruption is more pervasive. Now when I say political corruption, what I'm referring to is a lot of areas the powerful, wealthy people command the mayor's attention, the city council's attention. They call the police commissioner or police chief. And it goes downhill. When you talk about the poorer areas, the economically depressed areas, they don't have the same kind of poll, the same kind of clout. And that's where a lot of police get into conflicts and confrontations with command staff and city hall. Am I correct?

[Keith Groundsell]

Absolutely. As chief of police, my job was to ensure that my officers could do do their job without any interference. So that meant that I took all the. From the politicians.

[John J. Wiley]

Absolutely. And it was a sergeant. It's a little bit different. I'm sure you can relate to this. My job was to make sure the officers did their job the best of their ability and protect them from heat from above. So you were kind of like the wall between lieutenants and captains and everybody else. And if everybody got yelled at, you did so you made sure they treated everybody the best way possible, they did the best job possible, and they got everything they needed. This is the Law Enforcement Show. We're taking a short break. We'll be right back.

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[John J. Wiley]

Return Conversation with Keith Groundsell on the law enforcement 22 years experience in law enforcement from being chief of police, training, international police departments, working with DEA and author of four books called the Narcs Tales. Get more information at his website, which I believe is ground. Soulbooks.com Keith first of all, thank you for your service. Very much appreciated.

[Keith Groundsell]

Thank you.

[John J. Wiley]

And in some ways there's some similarities in my career and yours. I quickly began to gravitate from uniform patrol to we call special operations or flex type unit, crime suppression to drug enforcement, stolen cars, that sort of thing, armed robberies, men with guns, bad guys with guns. And I really developed a fondness for narcotics investigations. However, unlike what a lot of people think is I was lousy undercover. There's plain clothes on people, there's undercover and then there's deep cover. And part of your story sounds like it involved deep cover, didn't it?

[Keith Groundsell]

Absolutely. And that's you know, a misconception amongst the community. People think you see an officer in plain clothes, they're undercover. And as you said, there's plain clothes police officers that work surveillance. And then there's short time guys who go in and out and do a few buys here and there, part time undercover. Then there's guys that, you know, live a role and not all the time that I actually live a role. A lot of times I did some part time stuff, but I was always alert because I was doing multiple operations for multiple different agencies at one given time. So therefore, you always had to be on your toes on duty, duty, off duty. There was no such thing.

[John J. Wiley]

We had all the time guys, I mean, men and women in the academy and wasn't in my class, but there were always a couple that, like, the week before graduation, all of a sudden they are called out of the academy and you're thinking, oh, there's another one lost. They got fired. And then you find out five, six years down the road they've been working undercover. No one in the never saw them. Police department, you never saw them in headquarters. No one knew where they were. You never knew what they're doing, but they had a job to do. And that's what we see. Like Donnie Brasco, those kind of stories that you see on television. What I did was totally different.

[Keith Groundsell]

Yeah, so for me, it was, it was a little bit different. I had already spent three years with one agency. I changed agencies, and at that time, unbeknownst to me, they yanked me out of the orientation, put me undercover, and they made up a scandal that I was fired for using excessive force on an old case and I failed a drug test going in. The purpose was to be able to look at potentially any corrupt officers as well as people in the local community. Some of them knew who I was. I lived in an area that was pretty vibrant, that was growing, and multiple counties around it. You have close to a million people. So therefore I was able to continue, you know, and still work undercover and not be burned.

[John J. Wiley]

The story, the COVID story is the way they call it about being fired for excessive force and all those other things. That also goes contrary to what a lot of people hear and think in the media when, when we had a bad officer, everybody knew it. Everybody knew who they were, and no one kept it quiet. Everyone talked to someone about it. Their problem was you have to go above and beyond to make sure you get evidence. You just can't take unilateral action on people.

[Keith Groundsell]

Exactly. You can't go based upon rumors, you better have something pretty substantial if you're accusing a public servant who dedicated their life to helping people of corruption. So therefore, we got involved in cases where there were allegations made up against our officers. We made some arrests. We, you know, do undercover work for other agencies. I assisted the department of corrections Selling drugs to corrections officers to smuggle into prisons and going after dirty cops that are selling information and things like that. So I was involved in an array of things from murders for hire all the way to purchasing children, working undercover, posing as a pedophile. So, I mean, it wasn't just drugs, you know, vice and narcotics or gambling operations. But anytime anything popped up, if you specialize in undercover and somebody had a lead, Whether it be setting up a fencing operation and buying stolen merchandise or like I said, a murder for hire, we were there. We enjoyed it. And there was a small niche group. There was only a couple of us at the entire agency of hundreds of officers that actually did the deep undercover stuff.

[John J. Wiley]

It's a funny thing you brought up because you hear all the time about so and so looked for a hitman to kill their spouse, and lo and behold, guess who the hitman was? It was an undercover police officer. And you think that people will get wise of that. That's a Hollywood myth that I don't even know where to begin to look for someone that's supposedly hitman.

[Keith Groundsell]

What shocked me was the price which people felt they could get somebody killed for in lower socioeconomic status areas. You know, it wasn't anything to pay some hundred bucks to pop. Somebody would just shoot them and not kill them. $500 to kill somebody. I'm like, wow, I wouldn't even blink an eye. Somebody said something like that. You see these TV shows where they're paying tens of thousands of dollars, but the reality is, who has tens of thousands of dollars, you know, readily available to give somebody other than if there's a life insurance policy involved? And these type of people did not have life insurance policies.

[John J. Wiley]

So when you had these type cases, what was the average asking price? For lack of better words or part of the bargaining?

[Keith Groundsell]

Yeah, it could be anywhere from $500 to, you know, 1,000, $2,000. You know, there were people willing and basically to shoot people for 100 bucks. So we had to make sure our price was reasonable. And they didn't shop around to go to somebody else. Because once you interact with someone and they say they're willing to kill somebody and they make an overt act to meet with you youu know, you pretty Much better do something about it. Because if you delay any and they go hire somebody else and they kill them, you had knowledge of it. Then you're on the hook for some sort of liability. So the pressures on. Once you have knowledge.

[John J. Wiley]

Well, I would imagine. And like I said, I didn't do this type of work. But one doesn't hang out their shingles. A hitman for hire or whatever it might be, whatever you're posing as. Most of these leads probably came to you from what we called confidential informants. Someone heard something about someone doing this or that and then he approached the police.

[Keith Groundsell]

You're 100% accurate. That's exactly how it opens up. And in several cases, like one in particular you read about in the books was a situation where we actually utilized Guy's reputation that we busted saying that we were hit men for him in the past. And we sent him down the road to prison because people automatically feared that individual. And it was kind of funny how it worked out. We had direct knowledge of his whole organization in case they asked any questions. And that was only because we investigated, not because we were part of it. But they believe we are part of this other much larger organization.

[John J. Wiley]

One of the things that still amazes me is people will. There's a court decision that police can use reasonable subterfuge, meaning police can be dishonest. They don't have to tell you the truth. People always say, you see, in Hollywood, if a guy is going to go buy drugs or is a hitman or whatever he's posing as, and the customer will say to him, you're not the police, are you? Because I know you have to tell you.

[Keith Groundsell]

Yeah, exactly. I often laugh about that. And you'll read about that multiple incidents throughout my books, especially the first book where people. So I even had an individual that asked me to commit a crime, to do something because he believed that if I touched him or assaulted him that he couldn't be charged because I committed a crime before he sold me the drugs. The mindset of these people is just. Is whacked. But yeah, it's. It's funny, it's comical. You gotta laugh about it sometimes, but you always gotta be on your toes and be alert.

[John J. Wiley]

The other thing I always get, and I see this on so social media as well, and they'll say the case against so and so and just doesn't matter what it is. Let's just say murder. The case against so and so. The murder charges need to be dropped because they didn't read him as Miranda rights And I'm saying, I've been saying this for 20 years plus. They don't have to read you your Miranda rights when you're arrested unless they're going to talk to you. This is a law enforcement.

[Keith Groundsell]

Exactly.

[John J. Wiley]

We're talking to Keith groundseller, author of four books. He's got 22 plus years in law enforcement, including being chief of police, working in DEA and training police departments across the world. Don't go anywhere. A lot of great stuff heading your way on the Law Enforcement Show. We'll be right back.

[Commercial Announcer]

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[Keith Groundsell]

Feeling uncertain by life's challenges? At InTouch.org, you'll discover encouragement that lasts.

[John J. Wiley]

With powerful sermons From InTouch Ministries, Dr.

[Keith Groundsell]

Charles Stanley, Daily devotionals and resources designed to strengthen your faith, you'll find hope and wisdom for every season of your life. Don't wait. Visit intouch.org today and let God's word inspire your journey. That's intouch.org

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[John J. Wiley]

Back to our conversation with Keith Groundsell on the Law Enforcement show In a Nutshell. Keith has more than 22 years experience on law enforcement, from working with the DEA to being chief of police to training law enforcement agencies all throughout the world. He's also authored a series of books called Narc's Tales. Get more information his website, groundsoulbooks.com we're talking about your career, in particular the undercover work, because you spend a lot of time doing that. And you made a great point earlier, Keith. It's not always about drugs and narcotics. Sometimes it's vice, sometimes it's sex crimes, sometimes it's crimes against children. Understand, human trafficking is now a big, big issue with the undercover work and sometimes a small percentage of it. Because unlike what people think, the vast majority of police, I mean all forms of law enforcement are great officers doing the best they can. 99% of the time when they're not and you get word of it, then you have to spring a trap for them.

[Keith Groundsell]

Yes. I mean if there's one thing cops hate, good cops is a bad cop.

[John J. Wiley]

Absolutely.

[Keith Groundsell]

I'd rather take out one bad cop than 100 drug dealers any day of the week.

[John J. Wiley]

I've had the experience and was not a good experience of having to arrest an officer when I was a sergeant. And it's for small charges. They were intoxicated, had to take action against another officer who had a drinking problem and had to get a probationary officer fired. And those are very unpleasant parts of the job. But they happen daily. I say daily somewhere across the United States. It doesn't happen daily in every department, but it's part of the job no one likes and no one is proud of.

[Keith Groundsell]

Absolutely. We make, you know, in America we make about a million citizen contacts every single day. And you have such a small, small percentage that are negative or go away and the officer actually does something wrong. But that's all we hear about in the news. We don't hear about, you know, the 999,000 and some odd change, you know, other incidents that went textbook. We just hear about the bad ones. But we can always do better and policing ourselves I think is crucial. That's where as a supervisor, as a officer, a co worker issue job, to point out if something's wrong or to step in if you think it's about to go array and protect the other officer as well by doing the right thing.

[John J. Wiley]

We did make sure we did a long time ago. And here's the real basic reason why people, and this, this includes law enforcement as well, people are basically self centered. We don't think about you all day long. What we think about is how things affect us. So for you to expect me to cover for you and put me, my wife, my kids at risk of losing health insurance, retirement benefits and getting Sued is something 99.995% of us are not willing to do.

[Keith Groundsell]

Absolutely. You know, it's very sad. Nowadays in law enforcement you can be a police officer and do everything right, still be crucified by social media and in the public's eye, they'll portray this image that you did all these bad things when actuality you did it textbook and that's the hard pill for law enforcement to swallow nowadays and what makes it really difficult to be a law enforcement officer above and beyond what it used to be back in the days before social media.

[John J. Wiley]

Absolutely. And I say this again, I can't take credit for this. A good friend of the show who's a lawyer represents police, a lot of police in Georgia, he said, if people don't like the first string, meaning the first law enforcement's on the scene now, what are you going to do when a second string shows up? Because when we make life so difficult for the best of the best, and I want what I call 911 for an emergency, I want the best available to show up. I don't want somebody that's horrible. If we make life miserable for those people, they have options. They can go elsewhere for more money, less stress, less physical danger, all those things. When they leave, who's going to fill the void?

[Keith Groundsell]

Yeah. We're paid to intervene in the private lives of individuals that are doing something wrong. And sometimes we get good information and sometimes we get bad information, but we have to react and we have to investigate. So people are going to complain when you intervene and you catch them dirty. That's a fact. So as a law enforcement officer, there's old saying that you know you're not doing your job because you're not being complained on. That's somewhat true when it involves some people that don't want to take responsibility for their actions and they get busted.

[John J. Wiley]

Absolutely. The first line of defense in Baltimore and the drug lawyers was make a complaint of excessive force and discourtesy against us. That's the first thing they did. I want to shift gears. A big part of your career was involving undercover. Now the American population, really, it's not their fault. What Hollywood puts out is horrible. What real life law enforcement is like in America. It doesn't show how violent our society really is. It doesn't show the traumas that they experience. I've never met a cop who had a million dollar luxury loft and drove a sports car. I've never seen it. And we don't get involved in shootings all the time and then go out drinking with the guys. The undercover part, I think is so misunderstood because, well, quite honestly, no one's telling their stories.

[Keith Groundsell]

That's, that's 100% accurate. That's a lot of people. You say, oh, that must have been so exciting working undercover. I said, well, have you ever done anything that's the coolest thing you've ever done in your Life like skydiving, cliff cliff diving or something you always wanted to do. And what did you do immediately after you were done with it? You want to told people about it. Well, imagine doing something like that, but saying, hey, you can never, you can't talk about it right now. You're still undercover. You can't talk. So for years and years, years I didn't talk. So I wrote down notes, I started writing the stories, I kept my incident reports, and that was my form of therapy. And that's how I actually got into writing the book, originally as a form of therapy and to show my kids one day why daddy's always gone.

[John J. Wiley]

I'm sure you were gone a lot. It must have been really difficult on you in a family life.

[Keith Groundsell]

Absolutely. It's mentally the most stressful thing I've ever done. You know, you're living a life that nobody really understands. Your neighbors really don't know what you do. Your wife can't talk about it. For example, when I moved to Kansas with the dea, you know, my wife couldn't make any friends because I worked undercover. That's what I did. That's what primarily what I did every single day. And when you're doing that, you don't want to befriend somebody. You never know who knows somebody, who knows somebody. And it just became very stressful. The mental stress was overwhelming. You don't have any outlets for it. You know, I personally worked out, that was my thing. I had a home gym, I exercised and it enable me to be healthy. But the stress that I kept inside bottled up, mentally affected me to where I would blow up at times at home and I just almost lose it. And I couldn't go talk to anybody about it because, you know, in a thin blue line, you don't want to talk about your, your mental stresses because you look weak, which is a misconception. You know, we had for many, many years. You don't want to appear to be weak because you, you have a badge and a gun and you don't want that taken from you. So you have to hold in. And I developed stomach problems over the years, a nervous stomach. And just a lot of, you know, physical things started happening to me because of the stress. And, you know, it took its toll on my marriage. And after many, many years and even later on, you know, fighting corruption as a chief of police, being deployed six years internationally, you know, traveling around the world, being in very hostile areas, you know, all that took its, took its toll. And you know, my wife was wonderful to go through all the stuff she did. And her friends would tell her, you, you know, your boyfriend at the time when we were dating, or your husband, he's a dirt bag, he's hanging out with drug dealers. We saw him at a strip club or we saw him here. Well, yeah, those things were true, but I was actually working undercover and they didn't know it. They were bad mouthing and she just kept her mouth shut. So the mental stress wasn't just on me. It was on my wife, it was on my family, it was on my parents. You know, with the rumors going around that I was fired, you know, my mother was just beside herself. And eventually I had to tell her because she just couldn't understand, you know, how somebody that she raised could do these things. And that added mental stress to my entire family. There were a lot of sacrifices that were made.

[John J. Wiley]

I sit there and I think that I hate to keep bringing this film up, but the, the movie, the Donnie Brasco movie that I think Joe Pistone was the FBI agent went undercover and captured a lot of Mafioso in, in New York and a big part of the movie. And I don't think they did credit to it because they go from being happily married couple to him doing his job. All of a sudden, the entire marriage is on the brink of collapse. And I don't think that tells a full story. We're going to talk about what goes through the mind, the mindset, the preparation for serious undercover work. This is a law enforcement show. Don't go anywhere. We'll be right back.

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[John J. Wiley]

Back to our conversation with Keith groundsell, calling us from Greenville, South Carolina area. Just in a nutshell, and this is a very small look at his career. More than 22 years in law enforcement, he worked with the DEA. He has been a chief of police. He has trained law enforcement agencies in the most hostile environments in other countries across the world. And he's the author of a series of horrible. It's called Narc's tale. Get more information at his website, groundsellbooks.com before we went to break Keith, we started talking about the effects on or we were talking about the effects on marriage and relationships or undercover work. One of the things that I don't think most people really comprehend, and I'll work it this way, when we get a hot call in uniform, in a patrol car. First of all, when you're in uniform. When I went from work in plain clothes, narcotics for years back to uniform because I got promoted, it was such a relief. But you're in a fishbowl. Everybody sees you, everybody knows you. Everybody knows you're the police. Well, when you're plain clothes and you say, okay, I gotta go do this, I'm a support role. I gotta follow this guy, whatever it might be. When you go in undercover, you've got to have a mindset where you walk yourself through everything and like, what's the red flags? What to watch out for? How do you keep your composure?

[Keith Groundsell]

Absolutely. I used to have a technique that when I used to teach at the federal undercover school, I coined it as relaxed intensity. On the inside, you always got to be intense and ready to pounce at any moment, fight for your life at any moment. But on the outside, you always need to appear relaxed. So for me, what I tried to do was I'm not a heavy drinker, I'm not a big smoker, but when I worked undercover, I smoked. And a lot of people like, oh, why did you smoke undercover? Because when you're blowing smoke, you're keeping people out of your face. People didn't want to get up close to me when I was puffing on a cigarette and blowing smoke in their direction. So it kept people from trying to get close enough to get touchy feely. Like, they would send females in to touch you, to see if you have body wires on and things like that. It's nerve wracking working undercover. You have no radio, no bulletproof vest, no badge on you. All you got is a gun. And if something went away, you can't just say, I'm a police officer. They're not gonna believe you. They're gonna think they're being robbed. So they're gonna be fighting for their life thinking they're being robbed, because that's their number one fear, not the police. And then you're fighting, thinking that, oh, why, why aren't they complying? Why don't, why don't they stop? I'm announcing I'm a police officer. You don't look like a police officer, you don't act like a police officer. You don't have any weapons. All you have is your mind. And that's the most important thing. So, yeah, you're always one step ahead. You're always worried. You know, if you send an informant in to buy some drugs for you from somebody because you can't get in the door because they answered the door with a gun. And when they come back out, does the informant take the drugs as payment portion of the drugs, or do you pay the informant extra money because if you allow them to take it, then you're involved in the distribution? There's so many factors that come into play. You got to prepare for an unknown event, which is almost impossible. So you got to be innovative and willing to on a split second, change up everything you're doing, make a call. My key was going with my gut instinct. If I felt like it was wrong, no matter what, I wouldn't allow the lust for the bus to get in the way. I would pull out and come back another day.

[John J. Wiley]

Is there a scenario or that you remember in your experience where you're thinking, oh my, this is going to go horribly wrong. I'm going to get killed here.

[Keith Groundsell]

Yeah, quite, quite a few of them, actually. One in particular. I remember a guy, meth head. I was, you know, it was a meth cook. I was about a pound of crystal meth from the guy. And I've been trying to get with him for quite some time. Finally got it all set up and we set up a meeting location. I call him, he'd say, I'm on my way. He wouldn't show up. You know, typical dopers time, whenever they decide to arrive. Well, it went back and forth, back and forth. And my gut was just telling me, you know, this isn't normal. From our Previous, smaller deal. And at the last minute, I decided I'm gonna pull out. Well, he calls me, he's like, I'm here. As I'm pulling out, I see him pulling in. And my gut told me, go, don't even, don't give it about the pound of meth, go. We have enough evidence to stop him. So I did, I pulled out. The guy looked at me bug eyed, like, what the, you know, so they pulled him over. So what he did was he didn't have a pound of meth. He had a mini phone book duct taped up, sawed off, shotgun sitting in the seat. He's gonna throw me the phone book. When I started feeling questions, gonna blast me in the face with a shotgun. And he was gonna rob me. The reason I know that is he got interviewed afterwards and see I was gonna rob and shoot a drug dealer. He thought I was a dealer. So, yeah, I mean, my gut saved me on many occasions. Many, you know, incidents that went away, going into fist fights to guns, coming out. I mean, it's, it's all in the books. It's crazy. You know, I didn't, couldn't plan for those things. I just believe I have a guardian angel. But I also believe, you know, my gut instinct is the greatest trait that I have. When the hair on the back of the neck stands up and your stomach starts to bubble, you better listen to what your body better pay attention to it.

[John J. Wiley]

That's right. I always tell people this, you know, if something makes the hair and back of your neck stand up, trust it, whether it be God given, instinct, nature given, whatever you want to think, trust it. If you're wrong, you can always apologize. How does one, or I should say this, how do you, after all those years of doing this, this high adrenaline work, this high danger work, how do you go back to just being like a married father afterwards?

[Keith Groundsell]

That's an excellent question. Well, I didn't. I went overseas, was in charge of national SWAT team in Afghanistan, went to Haiti, was assigned to the Haitian national SWAT team there as a US contingent commander. Went to Liberia, was a senior law enforcement advisor. Every place I went, I got involved in the drug nexus because it was in my blood Taliban. We did pop eradication fields in Afghanistan, in Haiti, the Colombian cartels, 10% of all US cocaine comes through Haiti as a transshipment point, we're involved in taking out the cocaine loads. And Liberia, the Nigerian cartels control most of the heroin trade and the drugs in Africa, we got involved in that. So I can't turn it Off. And that's part of my, part of my dilemma. I was, you know, I would push in the fitness industry and just, you know, doing a lot of weightlifting and things like that. But, you know, I got injured in Afghanistan. I've had, you know, three shoulder surgeries, tore my bicep tendon twice, pectoral tendon, Achilles tendons. I've, you know, been injured doing stuff on the job. So it's hard. I'm being forced to slow down. And that's, that's kind of been a hard pill to swallow.

[John J. Wiley]

I would imagine it would be. Because I'll just say from my experience, I got hurt and retired very young, very suddenly my career was over at age 33. And you go from non stop adrenaline daily to I'm bored out of my mind. And if I, if I wasn't challenged, I wind up thinking and I wound up thinking about old stuff and it usually was bad stuff and usually would lead to depression and everything goes along with it.

[Keith Groundsell]

For me, writing the books was, was absolutely crucial. I was in Liberia as a senior law enforcement advisor to the inspector general there and I got quarantined for 22 weeks when Covid hit. And literally every couple weeks I go to the grocery store for 30 minutes and I just hunkered down and finished out the books. And that time was a mental. I could have mentally broke down, but I decided to be, you know, make it productive. And I did the therapy writing the books. I had to relive a lot of stuff and had to, you know, go back to old police reports, have people send me pictures of different things and copies of police reports to refresh my memories and things. But I mean, reliving all that, I forgot about a lot of things, to be honest with you. Then I'll see something, it'll trigger a memory. Is like, oh, I forgot about that.

[John J. Wiley]

Exactly. Things can mean they put away and it's been replaced by something else and boom, out of nowhere it pops up. A car looks similar to something you're involved in. It doesn't matter. And I'm still dealing with a lot of that. And I retired 29 years ago. Like I said, I was very young, retired. So this is part of how I have a mission to do things and it keeps me occupied. You obviously running your books has been a big part of your recovery and healing process. Where again, can people get more information about your books and everything you do?

[Keith Groundsell]

Yeah, they can go to my [e-mail] that's G R O U N S E L L B o o k s.com that links also into my YouTube channel. My YouTube channel has 50, 60 plus videos, different activities involved in my career of things that I've done. There's, there's other information on there about the books. You can go on Amazon and go it's a narc's tale and just look that up and there's four books, there's over a hundred reviews on their five star reviews and read about it and see if it's something that interests you. Book number one covers all my time working, you know, building up to becoming an undercover. What made me interested in it, Some trials and tribulations of my life, growing up, getting in trouble and different things that, you know, had good cops cut me breaks and things like that. And that's book one, Undercover with the City. Book two and three is undercover as a county sheriff's investigator. And that was where I grew so much and finally got a lot of training and things like that. Book four is all my federal undercover time dealing with the high level cartels and wiretap investigations and big dope and you know, from renting planes to do dope deals, hundreds and hundreds of kilos of heroin to you just name it. It's, it's, it was just at a totally different level that you know, was eye opening to me and what you think you know about the drug world, there's always something new to learn every single day. It's just like in law enforcement if you're not learning, you need to get that out. You know, it all.

[John J. Wiley]

Keith, I appreciate your service and I really appreciate you spending time with us talking about it on the Law Enforcement Show. Very much appreciated.

[Keith Groundsell]

Thank you very much. I appreciate all that you do to educate everyone in the community on what law enforcement actually does on a day to day basis. And God bless everyone that's listening.

[John J. Wiley]

I'd like to thank our guests for coming on the Law Enforcement Talk Radio Show. The Law Enforcement Talk Radio show is a nationally syndicated weekly radio show broadcast on Numerous AM&FM radio stations across the country. We're always adding more affiliate stations. If you enjoyed the podcast version of the show, which is always free, please do me a favor and tell a friend or two or three. I'll be back in just a few days with another episode of Law Enforcement Talk Radio show and Podcast. Until then, this is John J. Wiley. See ya.

[Keith Groundsell]

If you like the show, please take a moment to rate, review and subscribe. It really does help the show to grow. Thank you for listening.