The Raid in Texas and Bombing in Oklahoma

Summary

Podcast Summary: Law Enforcement Talk – The Raid in Texas and Bombing in Oklahoma

Episode: The Raid in Texas and Bombing in Oklahoma
Podcast: Law Enforcement Talk: True Crime and Trauma Stories
Host: John "Jay" Wiley
Guest: Barry Black, Retired FBI Sniper & Bomb Technician
Original Air Date: April 19, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode features Barry Black, a former FBI sniper, bomb technician, and accountant, sharing firsthand experiences from three of America’s most infamous incidents: the Waco Siege, the Oklahoma City bombing, and the aftermath of the 9/11 World Trade Center attacks. Host John J. Wiley guides a compelling, candid conversation uncovering both the procedural realities and personal impacts of these events. Together, they explore the evolution of law enforcement work, the trauma that comes with the job, and how officers and their families cope and rebuild.

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Key Discussion Points

Barry Black’s Unusual Career Path

• Accounting to FBI: Barry started as an accountant to bypass the FBI's experience requirements, influenced by advice from a recruiter and childhood aspirations inspired by TV shows and a mentor.

  “The accounting background was just means to an end. I never really wanted to be an accountant, but I did want to be an FBI agent since I was a kid.” — Barry Black [02:46]

• Hiring Practices: In the late '80s, the FBI prioritized accountants due to widespread financial crime following the oil bust.

  “A lot of people in my class were, in fact, accountants.” — Barry Black [03:38]

FBI Work: Fact vs. Fiction

• Hollywood vs. Reality: TV shows take liberties, but sometimes get elements right by compressing timelines and combining real individuals into single characters.

  “Because of time constraints... everybody’s identified with facial recognition or DNA. Sometimes that just doesn’t exist.” — Barry Black [05:56]

• Contact DNA: Barry explains modern forensic developments and the limits of DNA in investigations.

  “Contact DNA can be as few as seven skin cells... The technology has changed so much, but it is amazing.” — Barry Black [06:35]

Technology’s Evolution in Law Enforcement

• Old School Policing: Both men reminisce about the lack of modern technology in earlier days and emphasize the enduring value of human connection during interviews.

  “What we’re losing, it seems, is the ability to have contact with individuals face to face.” — Barry Black [09:43]

• Advancements Driven by Terrorism: Increased budgets and evolving threats transformed equipment and training for units like bomb squads.

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Waco Siege (Texas)

Segment: [11:17] – [19:10]

• Background: Barry was called to Waco right after his honeymoon, expecting a routine three-day deployment; it lasted 51 days.

  “I said, I’m going to pack for three days. This will be over in about three days. And of course, it lasted for 51. So I was wrong on my first deployment.” — Barry Black [12:38]

• On-Scene Challenges: Extreme firepower in the compound, difficult access, and the emotional toll of a protracted standoff.
• Family Impact: Barry’s personal life collided with duty—his wife hand-delivered wedding photos as the siege dragged on, underscoring the invisible burdens on law enforcement families.
• Armchair Quarterbacking: Both host and guest resist second-guessing the initial ATF raid decisions, emphasizing respect for those who were actually there.

  “Hindsight is always perfect... I would never assume the back, kind of armchair quarterback those decisions.” — Barry Black [16:41]

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Oklahoma City Bombing

Segment: [20:47] – [29:43]

• Event Recap: Barry explains the magnitude of the attack and the immediate aftermath.

  “This was about 5000 pounds parked outside on a city street. Destroyed. The Murrah Building was completely destroyed, and it damaged another 300 buildings.” — Barry Black [24:07]

• Personal Stakes: Barry’s wife, a federal probation officer, narrowly missed the explosion by two minutes.

  “She missed it by two minutes.” — Barry Black [25:14]

• Routine Police Work Pays Off: Timothy McVeigh was caught through a routine traffic stop for a missing license plate—not by sweeping anti-terror operations.

  “That’s when the old gum shoe police work that can pay off big time.” — John J. Wiley [21:26] “So’s mine.” — Trooper Charlie Hanger, on arresting McVeigh [21:50]

• Investigative Breakthrough: Discovery of the truck’s rear axle with a Vehicle Identification Number led to breakthrough leads.

  “A reserve deputy sheriff called me and my bomb tech partner... wiped away some grease, and revealed a cvin...” — Barry Black [26:47]

• Enduring Trauma: The investigation was massive (over 1,400 investigators, 900 days). Relationships with victims and survivors furthered the emotional weight.

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9/11 World Trade Center

Segment: [32:02] – [36:44]

• Immediate Response: Barry was dispatched to New York after a colleague (Lenny Hatton) died rescuing people in the collapse.
• Crime Scene Realities: The devastation was unprecedented—“14 acres of just absolute destruction.” [34:47]
• Occupational Hazards: First responders did their jobs without full understanding or protection against long-term medical consequences.
• Barry’s Cancer Diagnosis: Years later, Barry was diagnosed with a rare cancer linked to toxic exposures at Ground Zero.

  “I was diagnosed with an exceptionally rare form of cancer that required surgery... Thank God they got the whole tumor out.” — Barry Black [36:05]

• First Responder Mortality: More have died from related diseases since 9/11 than on that day.

  “More responders have died since the attack than died the day of the attack.” — Barry Black [35:04]

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Reflections on Trauma, Health, and Resilience

• Physical and Mental Toll: Law enforcement and military service shortens life expectancy due to cumulative stress and exposures.

  “The things you do, the things you see... it takes a physical toll and a physiological toll. And it’s important you have some way to deal with all that, because there’s a whole good life after retirement.” — Barry Black [37:51]

• Coping and Moving On: Barry began writing about his experiences, initially for personal reasons, which eventually became his memoir: Hazardous Devices: Memoir of an FBI Bomb Technician, Accountant and Sniper.

  “I strung those stories together, really, for my son or his kids one day. But... they published it and it’s really going quite well.” — Barry Black [38:24]

• Humanizing the Badge: Both guest and host lament that media and Hollywood rarely share the nuanced, service-driven side of law enforcement.

  “The men and women that do the jobs we did, and I’ll throw in our military partners, are public servants. They have servants’ hearts.” — Barry Black [39:42]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “You weren’t there. So shut your pie hole.” — John J. Wiley on armchair quarterbacking critical incidents [16:22]
• “This person always outranked me. If I was a sergeant, they’re lieutenant. If I’m a lieutenant, they’re a captain.” — John J. Wiley on police spouses and relationship dynamics [13:03]
• “My sniper partner, his wife drove my new bride to Waco with the photos so we could pick our wedding pictures and some other gear.” — Barry Black [17:25]
• “You go to war with the army you have. You build a case with the evidence that’s presented.” — John J. Wiley [28:36]

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Important Timestamps

• [02:46] Barry describes becoming an accountant to enter the FBI
• [06:35] Barry explains contact DNA
• [09:43] Technology changes in policing and the value of face-to-face interviews
• [12:38] Barry called to Waco right after his honeymoon
• [17:25] Personal impact: wife delivers wedding photos to Waco
• [21:50] Trooper Hanger’s traffic stop of Timothy McVeigh
• [25:14] Barry’s wife narrowly misses Oklahoma City bombing
• [26:47] Discovery of the truck’s rear axle at bombing site
• [32:33] Barry’s deployment to Ground Zero after 9/11
• [36:05] Cancer diagnosis linked to Ground Zero work
• [38:24] Motivations behind writing his memoir

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Resources

• Barry Black’s Book: Hazardous Devices: Memoir of an FBI Bomb Technician, Accountant and Sniper
• Website: barryblackokc.com
• Host Contact: [e-mail]
• Podcast Website: letradio.com

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This episode is a powerful testament to the hidden realities behind historic national tragedies and the quiet courage of those who serve and survive. Barry Black’s stories illuminate both the technical complexity and emotional burdens of law enforcement’s most dangerous moments—while underscoring the unbreakable bonds of family, duty, and resilience.

Transcript

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[John J. Wiley]

He's a retired FBI sniper. He was on scene at Waco, the siege at Waco, the Oklahoma City bombing where his wife was there. Fortunately she survived. He was even assigned to the 911 World Trade center terrorism attack. He's here to talk about all that and more on the Law Enforcement Talk Radio Show. Welcome to the Law Enforcement Talk Radio Show. In the Law Enforcement Talk Radio show, we are joined by special guests talking about their experiences, their realities of investigating crimes, plus those who have experienced horrendous trauma. Police, first responders, military and victims of crime share their stories Hunters hi, I'm John J. Wiley. In addition to being a broadcaster, I'm also a retired police sergeant. Be sure to check out our website letradio.com and also like us on Facebook search for the Law Enforcement Talk Radio Show. You can find us on Facebook. Look for and like the Law Enforcement Talk Radio Show Facebook page. Joining us from Oklahoma, we have Barry Black on the Law Enforcement Talk Radio Show. Barry is a retired FBI sniper bomb technician. He started his career as an accountant which we'll talk about in a few moments. He's author of the book Hazardous Memoir of an FBI Bomb Technician, Accountant and Sniper and his website is barry blackokc.com that's barryblackokc.com Barry thanks for your service A and B thanks for being guest on the Law Enforcement Talk Radio show and talking about it.

[Barry Black]

Oh it's my pleasure. Thanks for having me on.

[John J. Wiley]

And by the way, Barry was diagnosed with cancer as a result of his deployment to the World Trade center, which we'll talk about a little bit later on. I know this. I looked at the FBI and I was not qualified for the FBI because I didn't have a college degree. I wasn't a military veteran and I didn't have accounting or back then, computer skills or language skills. How did you make the jump from accountant to a bomb technician and FBI sniper? That seems like a bit of a reach.

[Barry Black]

It was an odd ride, for sure. And really the accounting background was just means to an end. I never really wanted to be an accountant, but I did want to be an FBI agent since I was a kid. And speaking with the recruiter very early on in college, I was told, hey, we're not hiring engineers, which is what I was studying. She told me, we're hiring accountants and lawyers. Law school was three more years of school, and back then they had an accounting test. So if I got an accounting degree, could have passed the FBI accounting test. They would waive this requirement for three years of practical work experience so I could get in really much sooner. And it got me in at the age of 24.

[John J. Wiley]

So the thing is, a lot of people don't realize back then, and now it's language, computer skills, a lot of other things. But that sort of stuff will get you in the door. Why was accounting such a big deal?

[Barry Black]

Well, I got in in 1988, and in the 80s, you may remember, there was the oil bust. Oil dropped. You know, the market's very volatile right now. But there were so many banks in the Southwest, particularly in oil country, that made some really bad decisions in their loan making. So there were bank failures and a lot of bankruptcy fraud. So the FB is pretty dynamic in its hiring. They realized they were going to need some people with accounting backgrounds, so they put out that specialty request. And a lot of people in my class were, in fact, accountants.

[John J. Wiley]

There's a big difference between being a sniper and being a number cruncher.

[Barry Black]

There is, yes, I'll agree, I'll agree.

[John J. Wiley]

Although numbers and sniping plays into it. I was never sniper. I was just street cop. And that's a skill set I really don't know much about. But you wanted to go. Was the show FBI part of your influence of why you want to go in there?

[Barry Black]

Oh, absolutely. The show itself, FBI and the Untouchables and all those things that young kids watch were incredibly instrumental. And I actually had a Little League coach that was an FBI agent, and he was a great role model and mentor. And I hammered him with questions all through middle school and high school until he eventually handed me off to the recruiter. So I had a lot of help along the way.

[John J. Wiley]

Is it like policing? I've gotten to the point where I rarely ever watch American Made police dramas because they're so, so far from the truth. They're not even remotely close, the FBI ones, are they, Are they just as distant?

[Barry Black]

You know, I watch them, I enjoy them. I've been small parts behind the scenes in one or two of them. A lot of it is factual, but they have to jam so much into a 60 minute episode. Obviously there are some kind of Hollywood liberties taken, but they do make a good story.

[John J. Wiley]

One of the things that I get quite often is I'm retired Baltimore police. And they'll go, oh my God, Baltimore. Was it like the Wire? Was it really like that? And go, well, I'll give you an example. That one of the characters in the Wire, I could see elements of six or seven police. I knew in that, that one character. What they'll do is they'll take all these elements from different people and combined in one.

[Barry Black]

Because of time constraints, Right, exactly. And that's how you get, you know, everybody's identified with facial recognition or DNA. Sometimes that just doesn't exist on a crime scene. You know, best laid plans and you still may not get usable DNA or even fingerprints. But on most of these shows there's always some forensic clue that's left behind and you know, we'll try to collect them, but sometimes they just aren't there.

[John J. Wiley]

One of the things I get, you brought up DNA. And that was in its infancy when I was policing. But one thing I see quite often now on television is contact DNA. They're going to leave their DNA around. What are they talking about?

[Barry Black]

So contact DNA is it can be as few as seven skin cells. So if you touch more often a rough surface, you slough off skin cells. And five to seven cells can be enough in certain circumstances to provide. The technology has changed so much, but it is amazing.

[John J. Wiley]

And one of the things that I don't get and that I think a lot of people don't get, and maybe Hollywood is to blame. I'm gonna say not maybe. They're definitely to blame for this, the Guthrie case that they talk about, they recovered DNA. Well, that's great, but if you don't have a sample that matches up to that, you really got nothing.

[Barry Black]

Right? Well, DNA is not always a silver bullet. You know, you have exclude people that had some reason to be on the scene. But yeah, if you get DNA and nobody's been loaded in the database, if that string is identifiable in theory, you could get what they call a John Doe warrant. We're looking for the person with this DNA so that if there's a statute of limitation, that warrant would outlast the statute of limitation. So it can be handy, but obviously not everybody is in the database.

[John J. Wiley]

When you started in the FBI and one of the advantages of working with the feds, I did about two years of a DEA in Baltimore. I was detailed them as a U.S. marshal, Special Deputy U.S. marshal. It was a pretty sweet gig. But they had great equipment, they had great technology, they had great cars. They had all the things that we didn't have. But when I started, we didn't even have cell phones. We didn't have when we started this drug investigation was with a clone pager and then a pen register. We had to sit there and register every time a phone call came in. We document it and then we follow up with surveillance on that location. All that stuff nowadays it seems like. And this I'm opposed to the formal question have you seen a lot of changes technology wise between when you first started and now?

[Barry Black]

Oh, absolutely. When I went through the academy, we had to buy our own handcuffs. When I got on the SWAT team, we were buying our own boots. When I became a bomb technician, we were using. Some people were using homemade disruptors. Yeah, budget plays into that a lot. You mentioned the task forces had better cars and better equipment. That's just straight a function of budget. So yes, as terrorism has become more prevalent, the terrorism budget went up. And when I was a bomb technician, our tools and capabilities went up dramatically.

[John J. Wiley]

Well, I guess there's positives and there's negatives with that. And one of the things I get all the time and I was actually thinking about this in the shower before my interview with you. It's like man policing nowadays, you got cell phones, you can ping a cell phone, tell if it banged off of. We didn't have any of this stuff. And it seems to me that a lot of crimes are solved by old fashioned gumshoe policing.

[Barry Black]

I agree completely. And what we're losing, it seems, is the ability to have contact with individuals face to face. A face to face interview can tell you things that you're not going to get from texting or, you know, any kind of direct messaging. And I was a training agent for a while and one of the newer agents asked while we were driving four hours of Oklahoma to interview somebody instead of emailing them. I said because I want to see his face.

[John J. Wiley]

I want to see his expression on his face. We're talking about. Barry Black is a retired FBI sniper bomb technician. He's author of the book Hazardous Memoir of an FBI Bomb Technician, Accountant and Sniper. His website is barry black okc.com don't go anywhere. This law enforcement talk radio show. We'll be right back.

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[John J. Wiley]

Joining us from Oklahoma, we have Barry Black. He's retired FBI. I love the saying retired FBI bomb technician, sniper, accountant. He's also an author of the book called Hazardous Devices Memoir of an FBI Bomb Technician, Accountant and Sniper. His website is barry black okc.com is barry black okc.com during your career in the FBI, Barry, we talked about how you got started as an accountant and why you did that. But you wanted being assigned to Waco. And I remember watching videos. I still, I cannot watch those videos of the, the ATF and other people on the roof and exchanging gunfire with. I can't to this day stomach that stuff. It brings up parts of me that I don't like.

[Barry Black]

Yeah, it was difficult. It had never happened before. Obviously, there was that, that initial raid, it did not go well. There were four of their agents killed. And of course, some of the Davidians were. But there was basically a ceasefire called and President Clinton was new, the ag, Janet Reno was new. And they basically said for the FBI to get involved and resolve it. And that's how the FBI got involved at all.

[John J. Wiley]

But you were there during the whole thing or just it came in towards the end of it?

[Barry Black]

Yes. So that after, after the raid, I was unpacking from my honeymoon and we had pagers by then. The pager went off with a SWAT rally and my wife said, how's this going to work? I said, I'm going to pack for three days. This will be over in about three days. And of course, it lasted for 51. So I was wrong on my first deployment.

[John J. Wiley]

Yeah, you were slightly off by a little bit.

[Barry Black]

She hasn't forgiven me for that either.

[John J. Wiley]

Well, and by the way, they have long memories. And here I'll say this about police wives. And I use the term police. That includes federal agents as well. No matter. And I was married to A woman that she didn't sign up for this stuff and the marriage failed. My wife, now, she's phenomenal. We've been married almost together about 30 years. But no matter where I was in the rank structure, this person always outranked me. If I was a sergeant, they're lieutenant. If I'm a lieutenant, they're a captain.

[Barry Black]

Well, the families of law enforcement and the military, you're right, they didn't sign up for it, but they're an integral part through support while you're away. When you get home and you've seen some horrible things. I know I have. And you can't come home and just unload that on your family. So they're a huge support.

[John J. Wiley]

It's not fair to them. And I never wanted to have them worry about me, and they still did anyway. But when you were being deployed to Waco, were you, like, jacked up and excited about this?

[Barry Black]

Well, it was just part of the job. I had been on the SWAT team, and the subset of the SWAT team was the sniper team back from TV shows. That's kind of what I wanted to do, and I was fortunate to get to do it. So when we were deployed, it was going to be in support of the FBI office in Waco. Other teams would be coming in as mutual aid, but we had no idea that this was going to be this unprecedented, historic event. It was just another SWAT call out at the time.

[John J. Wiley]

And I, from memory, if my memory is correct, and it's often not at this ripe old age, this thing went on a lot longer than most do. We had situations. We did raids. They were done early in the morning, usually when people were asleep. And if we thought there was a chance of violence, we'd have a SWAT team or we would call qrt. They would do the room entry, but they would handle it. And we would cut off water if we need to cut off electricity. All that stuff from Jump street, all

[Barry Black]

of that was done. You know, this was, if you'll remember, you said you saw it on television. It was an enormous compound on the flat plains of Texas. There was no good way to access

[John J. Wiley]

even the compound, no matter what you did.

[Barry Black]

There was a watchtower in the middle of that compound, and we were told that they had.50 caliber weapons. Yeah, it was a bad situation. So we borrowed some armor from Fort Hood and walked down this long country road on the safe side of that armor, got to our initial positions, and, you know, everybody was hopeful negotiations would work out. So we held there as the negotiations kind of ebbed. And flowed and it turned into that 51 day standoff.

[John J. Wiley]

One of the things that and I had some guests on a long time ago and they talked about there were a Waco for the raid, there was atf and one of the things that they said was this guy David Koresh could have been arrested anytime in town. He went in town frequently.

[Barry Black]

Yes. And I won't armchair quarterback the decision of that initial raid by the other agency. You know, we inherited that situation where there had already been a pretty severe fierce firefight deaths. It was a bad situation. Yeah. Decisions made before we got there. Really I hate to even comment on.

[John J. Wiley]

I agree with you. And one thing I tell people all the time and trust me, I love police and that includes federal agencies, state troopers, deputies, you name, I love them. However, when you get the so called tactical and America tactical experts, they say if I was there, I'd done this and I go you weren't there. So shut your pie hole.

[Barry Black]

Yeah, it's difficult. Hindsight is always perfect. Things don't always go well in tactical situations. But yeah, I would never assume the back, you know, kind of armchair quarterback those decisions. But it did not go well and you know, the ferocity of fire they took. I was briefed by one of their SRT or special response team and he had taken a shotgun blast from an upper story window. It was a pretty dramatic brief in and we expected some problems but had no way to know it would last 51 days.

[John J. Wiley]

And obviously you packed for three days. So listen, there's. I'm not able to go into details but you had to make a run to the store to get change of underwear.

[Barry Black]

Sure. Well, and I mentioned I just got married and back in the day our wedding photos were on 35 millimeter film. So that wedding photographer was pressing my new wife to get his proofs back. So my sniper partner, his wife drove my new bride to Waco with the photos so we could pick our wedding pictures and some other gear.

[John J. Wiley]

Listen Barry, one of the things I can only assume this is the case of feds with police. They're long on memories and they quick to give people nicknames and they tease each other relentlessly. I could see being an active sniper and having your wife show up with wedding photos. Did you catch any flak from that?

[Barry Black]

You know, we were on 12 hour shifts with an hour brief and debrief on each end. When we got done, everybody just tried to get some sleep. There wasn't a lot of time for joking around. It was a crisis situation, you know, it was A bad situation. All in all, the team was great. We were all good friends. And yeah, it was just once it turned into that protracted situation, it was just, you know, do your shift, try to get some sleep and then show back up and do your shift again.

[John J. Wiley]

Before we go to break, I've got to ask you one quick question. And one of the things I get quite often from police is like, whoa, you ever in a shooting? And I'm like, yeah, I was in four of them in a little more than 10 years. And I'm like, you gotta be kidding me. I don't go into a lot of details, but did you expect, did you encounter agents to go, man, you've been through a ton.

[Barry Black]

Yes. In 31 years with some pretty major events, historic events. My career was not unique. Even my buddies tell me that it was a strange ride. And I got to do a lot of kind of unusual things with some amazing people.

[John J. Wiley]

We're talking with Barry Black. He's a retired FBI sniper and bomb technician. He's an accountant turned FBI sniper and bomb technician, which we will turn to in a few moments. And wrapping up a conversation about being at Waco. The siege of Waco. He was also at the Oklahoma City bombing. His wife worked at the building where the bombing took place. He was the World Trade Center. He got cancer from the World Trade Center. One of his partners was killed. We'll talk more about that. He's the author of the book has this Device's memoir of an FBI bomb technician, accountant and sniper. And his website is barryblackokc.com, that's barryblackokc.com this is the law enforcement talk radio show. We're going to take a short break. We'll be right back. Of all the radio stations in the United States, there are no other shows like the law enforcement talk radio show. And on Facebook, there's only one official page. Do a search on Facebook for the law enforcement talk radio show and be sure to like the Law enforcement Talk radio show Facebook page.

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[John J. Wiley]

During conversation with Barry Black on the law enforcement talk radio show. Barry is a retired FBI sniper, bomb technician accountant. He's also authored the book Hazardous Devices Memoir of an FBI Bomb Technician Account and sniper. His website is barry black okc.com as barry black okc.com I think OKC is for Oklahoma City, am I correct?

[Barry Black]

Correct. Oklahoma City.

[John J. Wiley]

So by the way, Oklahoma City's also I remember watching video of the Is it the Edward R. Murrow building, the bombing?

[Barry Black]

Yeah. Alfred. Yes. Alfred Murrah Federal Building. Yes. Alfred Murray. Yep.

[John J. Wiley]

And by the way, Timothy McVeigh was one of the main players in this. He was caught on a routine traffic stop several hours later. And that's constantly I bring that up because people are constantly saying, oh, routine traffic stops or minor traffic stops, we need to get rid of those things. And I'm telling you, that's when the old gum shoe police work that can pay off big time.

[Barry Black]

Absolutely. So McVay had detonated the bomb in front of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal building, driven northbound on i35. And. And this was a huge blast. It registered 3.2 on the Richter scale. Still the largest act of domestic terrorism in the country. But Oklahoma highway patrol trooper Charlie Hanger, he was driving south to come help in Oklahoma City. But his dispatch, of course, they still have policing responsibilities in other parts of the state, being the highway patrol. So he was told to turn back around and go to his patrol zone. As he was making that U turn in the median, McVeigh passed him in this old yellow Mercury. But Mercury didn't have a license plate. So he trooper hangar pulled him over for failure to display a license plate. And when McVay got out, Charlie realized he had a gun under his jacket. So in classic OHP fashion, McVay said, hey, I've got a gun and mine's loaded. Charlie put his gun to McVay's head and said, so's mine, and arrested him for failure to display a plate. And having that weapon, which was illegal back then, he didn't know he had just bombed the Murrah building. So he was sitting in a county jail. We ended up doing an offline NCIC search for McVeigh by name. Realized he was still sitting in jail about 90 miles north. I had the air assets at the time, and we got a helicopter. I flew up, landed on the highway to seize the car, and then my partner and other agents flew on ahead into federal custody of McVeigh.

[John J. Wiley]

And by the way the term where he said, you know, my gun's loaded too. That was what we call verbal judo. And Baltimore police were notorious for that.

[Barry Black]

Well, I saw Charlie at a Law Enforcement Society meeting day before yesterday. He's a quiet, unassuming guy. He's a. He's a great man. He's retired now as well, but, yeah, what a great guy.

[John J. Wiley]

Well, next time you see him, tell him I said thank you. Because I don't think he knew. And we're not here to tell his story, but I don't think he knew who he had and what he.

[Barry Black]

Oh, no idea. He had no idea.

[John J. Wiley]

So when this Oklahoma City bombing, first of all, as an American, I never thought that would happen here. That only happened overseas. And when I saw that on television, I was shocked.

[Barry Black]

Well, it had never happened before. Of course, there was the first World Trade center attack, which was a big device. It was 1200 pounds inside a garage. This was about 5000 pounds parked outside on a city street. Destroyed. The Murrah Building was completely destroyed, and it damaged another 300 buildings. The size and magnitude of this blast was really unbelievable.

[John J. Wiley]

And was your wife working at the time?

[Barry Black]

So we got married just before Waco. She was a federal probation officer. That's how we met. So, yes, she was. The government cars, the G Rides, we call them, were in the garage of the Murrah Building along with her personal car. And she worked in the building across the street, but had gone to the garage in the Murrah Building, gotten her government car, left the west garage, pulled right, drove right past the bomb on the north side of the building, made it a couple blocks away at the time of detonation. And she thought she had fallen into some giant construction hole on the highway. That overpressure had pushed her vehicle, but she missed it by two minutes.

[John J. Wiley]

Did she realize how close she came?

[Barry Black]

Well, she didn't know immediately what had happened. Of course, there weren't cell phones then. But once it became obvious, y. So her office was closed, obviously. And I was one of two FBI bomb technicians, so I really couldn't say, I'm not coming to work. So that was a difficult time. Just on a personal level, you have that pull to be home with your spouse, who, by the grace of God, is still here. But there's only two of us in the state, and there's a job to do. Plus we knew other people that were killed in the building. It was a very difficult time.

[John J. Wiley]

One of the things that I can relate to, and I didn't do anything to that level, trust me. But there is no saying no. When the bosses said you could do something, it didn't matter if there's 500 in the state. You didn't say no. Ever.

[Barry Black]

Well, as you know, as a first responder, most of us and our military partners are kind of type A people anyway. And, you know, it gets to a point where as a leader, as a manager, you have to send your people home just to get some sleep. But. But there were, I believe there's a total of about 1,400 people worked just that investigation for nearly 900 days. It was an unbelievable effort.

[John J. Wiley]

And if my memory's correct, and it's quite often not, they were. The linchpin in solving the case was the rear axle from the truck.

[Barry Black]

Right. So there was a huge piece of twisted metal blown about a city block away. And a reserve deputy sheriff called me and my bomb tech partner, Jim Norman, over. He spit on his finger, wiped away some grease, and revealed a cvin, a confidential vehicle identification number. Jim and I both wrote it down, we called it out to make sure there were no errors. And we still didn't have cell phones at the time. So Jim tore off his little paper from the tiny government memo pad we all had, gave it to a runner, and took that to the command post. And then they were starting to run the cvin, which led to Ford Motor. Ford said that it was a truck built for Ryder Rental company. Ryder said it was assigned to a place in Junction City, Kansas, called Elliott's Body Shop. So we flooded that place with our state and local partners and FBI agents got a sketch artist up there because there was not digital photography back then, right? And got sketches of John Doe 1 and John Doe 2. Got about, oh, well, nearly 16,000 leads from those sketches. But, yeah, that's how those now infamous sketches were gotten so fast.

[John J. Wiley]

And by the way, John Doe number one and John Doe number two turned out to be McVeigh and his partner.

[Barry Black]

Well, John Doe one was McVeigh. John Doe two was a mystery and the reason for so many conspiracy theories. But we fully identified him as another soldier who was at Fort Riley. He had been to Elliot's body shop, but just on a different day. The composite was perfect of both of them, actually, the, the sketch, but the people that gave us their recollection had just sort of misremembered what day John Doe too was there. But we spent about 8,000 hours identifying that man.

[John J. Wiley]

One of the things that amazes me, and I would love for you to touch base on this so Many crimes of this magnitude are not solved because the evidence, Listen, I talked to my wife the other day and we talked as a famous quote that I love. You go to war with the army, you have, you build a case with the evidence that presented. You can't create evidence. There's certain things about that case that if they were not there, it would be a lot harder to prove.

[Barry Black]

Well, finding that cvin that early on it was about, I don't know, maybe 10:30 that morning, which was enabled us to run that data and get to Elliott's body shot where there was an eyewitness, you know, who rented this truck and we got the sketch. So finding that, you know, was great. We had, we did have some chemical residue but it was very minute because it rained that night.

[John J. Wiley]

Right.

[Barry Black]

And a lot of the chemical, explosive, chemical residue was washed away. But yeah, some of this evidence that you need is very, very small. And it just takes an extremely thorough crime scene investigation followed up by really good interviews to put a case together.

[John J. Wiley]

And do me a favor, please tell your wife I said thank you for her service as well. We're talking about Barry Black, retired FBI sniper bomb technician. He's an accountant or an FBI sniper which is a mind blowing thing but when you think about it, he's authored the book Hazardous Devices Memoir of an FBI Bomb Technician, Accountant and Sniper. And his website is barry blackokc.com that's barryblackokc.com this is law enforcement talk rated show. When we return we talk about 911 World Trade Center. Don't go anywhere. We'll be right back. If you want to be a guest on the law enforcement talk radio show, simply contact us. It couldn't be easier. You can send us a message on Facebook, look for and like the law enforcement talk radio show page or email jetradio.com that's J A Y@L ET radio.com

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Foreign.

[John J. Wiley]

Conversation with Barry Black on the Law Enforcement Talk Radio show. Barry is retired FBI sniper bomb technician. He started off as an accountant. He's author of the book Hazardous Devices Memoir of an FBI Bomb Technician, Accountant and Sniper. His website is barry black okc.com it's barry black okc.com as if you didn't have enough already in your long career, Barry, you also have being dispatched to 911 World Trade center terror attack. Tell us about that.

[Barry Black]

Well, obviously it was a horrific event. I had become a bomb technician in 1994, exactly 53 weeks before McVay bombed the Murrah Building in Oklahoma City. And between the bombing there in 95 and the 911 attacks, I I'd been given the opportunity to do a great deal of training and been to a number of special events. So that morning, of course, everybody remembers where they were. The FBI went into high gear and four of us special agent bomb technicians were sent to New York in part because our special agent bomb tech there, Lenny Hatton, who was a great guy, he was killed rescuing people when the buildings collapsed. We lost Lenny. So we went up to support our New York for those technical operations.

[John J. Wiley]

I can't even begin to imagine the scope of that disaster afterwards. And by the way, I talk about this many times on the show many years afterwards, I went to the construction area and they had NYPD there. And I just wanted to say I'm retired Baltimore police and I can't imagine losing that many people in one day. And I made about three feet from them and I started crying. To this day, granted, there's a lot of people that are born after that, but to this day that has a huge impact on me. I can't imagine being on scene and trying to go from rescue mode to recovery mode.

[Barry Black]

Well, that job, the rescue and recovery are done by first responders and my hat's off. That was really not our part of it. You know, it was the evidence Would come through, and if it had any kind of explosive element or we were backfilling the jobs with New York's special response teams when. And they would get leads for suspicious activity that may or may not have been tied to the attack. So it was a crazy time. There were a lot of things going on. But, yeah, the magnitude of the loss, the crime scene itself was just a hellscape, Something like I had never seen. It was like 14 acres of just absolute destruction.

[John J. Wiley]

And how bad was the health situation? Because I remember them saying that it wasn't that bad, and people were wearing little paper masks. And now we've actually lost more first responders, more people on scene from cancers than we did on scene from the disaster itself.

[Barry Black]

Right. Well. And as you know, first responders are kind of. Let me help first ppe, you know, whether it was available or not, you just went and did your job. I remember being at ground zero, you know, the smoke was still rising. The little grid, that cover don't walk signs were just packed with material. We did not know what we were breathing. And we had teams at fresh kills landfill that were sorting all that debris. But, yes, more responders have died since the attack than died the day of the attack.

[John J. Wiley]

And you've had your own health scares as a result of working there?

[Barry Black]

I did about eight years after I'd been having some sinus issues, which was really pretty common with birth responders. There was seeing an ear, nose, and throat guy. And I said, hey, by the way, doc, what is this? There's this little knot kind of behind my left jawline.

[John J. Wiley]

Never good, by the way.

[Barry Black]

No, it's. You know, you got to ask. So I did. And he. He said, look, I don't know. So he sent me to a couple of different folks. Anyway, it was. I was diagnosed with an exceptionally rare form of cancer that required surgery. Six hours of surgery with a head and neck specialist. And thank God they got the whole tumor out so I didn't have to have any treatments after. But I count myself as being very fortunate. Some other friends of mine in the explosives unit and other units have died because of their exposures on scene. I'm blessed and quite fortunate.

[John J. Wiley]

You're very fortunate indeed. And that is not lost on me that I can have this conversation with you. And by the way, a lot of these people that have died from horrific illnesses died very young.

[Barry Black]

Right. Well, you look at the average age of the first responders. It's not an easy job physically. And the parameters just within the FBI, you're mandatorily retired at age 57. So you're going to be well below that when you're doing some of these more physically intensive jobs.

[John J. Wiley]

And one of the things I jokingly say this, and then we'll go into what you're doing today in a moment, is when I was in the police Academy back in 1980, we had a major at the time. He said the average life expectancy for Baltimore police at that time was 52. That's how long they lived. And they usually lived two years after retiring and died. The average life expectancy, last time I read for an average American male police officer is 58. And the average life expectancy of American men is 73. So we're still dying young.

[Barry Black]

Well, and I think you'll find a correlation to the military as well. It's just the things you do, the things you see, the operational tempo, the stress, it takes a physical toll and a physiological toll. And it's important you have some way to deal with all that, because there's a whole good life after retirement. You just have to be around to enjoy it.

[John J. Wiley]

And by the way, speaking of your good life after retiring, you wrote this book, Hazardous Devices Memoir of an FBI Bomb Technician, Accountant and Sniper. What possessed you to do that?

[Barry Black]

Well, a good friend of mine, when I was a little boy, she knew I wanted to be in the FBI. So when I got my letter to Quantico, she knew me well enough. She said, you're going to forget all the cool stuff, start writing it down. So I did. I just kind of, when I was flying from Kathmandu or Mogadishu or Tashkent, some of these crazy places, I would just jot down on the back of a napkin or something, what we did, what we saw, what we ate while we were there. And in retirement, I had a lot of free time. So I strung those stories together, really, for my son or his kids one day. But I was contacted by a publisher. I teach at a university now. I was contacted by a publisher to write a forensic science textbook. And I said, well, I haven't really thought about that, but I do have this compilation of little stories from 31 years in the FBI. And it was sort of a surprise to me, but they published it and it's really going quite well.

[John J. Wiley]

I'm thrilled for you. I really am. Because quite honestly, and this part of reason why I started the show nine years ago. Today's the nine year anniversary of it, the birth of the show. I wanted to provide a platform, a national platform where people could tell their Stories about the realities of police because we get everything that seems to be washed with some political bias.

[Barry Black]

Right, right. Well, and tv, you know, Hollywood's not necessarily realistic. Then the news is usually negative. But the men and women that do the jobs we did, and I'll throw in our military partners are public servants. They have servants hearts and they're trying to help people that need help.

[John J. Wiley]

And is your website, barryblackokc.com a spinoff of the book?

[Barry Black]

Well, I started, I've been doing some little speaking engagements here and there and the last one I did down at the Dallas Holocaust Museum, they were like, well, we just happened to find you on LinkedIn as I was talking to them and a buddy suggested you should probably get a website. I'm not good at that promotion part because as you know, in law enforcement we usually couldn't even talk to the media. But it was good advice to get a little website. I do some speaking now and of course it's a good avenue for the book as well.

[John J. Wiley]

Is that a great place for people to reach out and get a hold of you?

[Barry Black]

That's a fantastic way to get me Barry Black, okc.com, the book's available on Amazon or wherever else you buy books, but sure, that's sort of what it's for and I hope it continues to be a viable avenue.

[John J. Wiley]

That's Barry Black, okc.com Now we change gears very quickly. Barry Black, is that your given name or is that a made up name?

[Barry Black]

No, that's my name. Yep, it's it. And I had to live with it when I was a kid. People would reverse it, you know, BlackBerry, whatever. But yeah, no, that's me.

[John J. Wiley]

I'm sure the song Old Black Betty was one you heard quite a bit.

[Barry Black]

Well, and it mentions Birmingham. That's where I'm from. So that folds into.

[John J. Wiley]

Well, that's awesome. Barry, I want to thank you for your service, but I really want to thank you for talking about these things. They're not easy to talk about. They're not fun to talk about. You handled it with dignity and grace and you're very much appreciated.

[Barry Black]

Well, I appreciate your kind words and thank you for your services.

[John J. Wiley]

And I'd like to thank our guests for coming on the Law Enforcement Talk Radio Show. The Law Enforcement Talk Radio show is a nationally syndicated weekly radio show broadcast on numerous AM&FM radio stations across the country. We're always adding more affiliate stations. If you enjoyed the podcast version of the show, which is always free, please do me a favor and tell a friend or two or three. I'll be back in just a few days with another episode of law enforcement talk radio show and podcast. Until then, this is John J. Wiley. See ya.