The Risks of Criminal Court

Summary

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Law Enforcement Talk: True Crime and Trauma Stories

Episode: The Risks of Criminal Court
Host: John "Jay" Wiley
Guest: Iris Etan, former criminal defense attorney
Date: March 25, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the hidden dangers and systemic failures of the criminal court system, featuring candid discussions between host John "Jay" Wiley (retired Baltimore police sergeant) and guest Iris Etan, a former criminal defense lawyer with 28 years' experience. The conversation centers on the overwhelming power wielded by prosecutors, the trauma inflicted on the wrongly accused, the media's role in shaping public opinion, and the urgent need for prosecutorial accountability. Iris’s personal stories underscore these issues, shedding light on the emotional toll and real-life consequences for defendants, law enforcement, and even justice system insiders.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

The Human Side of Law and Enforcement

• Mutual Motivations:
  Both Wiley and Etan emphasize entering their professions to help people, not just enforce the law or win cases.

  • Jay: “Very, very little of the job was about arresting people. And even those who did arrest, the vast majority were not hardcore criminals.” (05:04)
  • Iris: “All I wanted to do was help people and make sure that they were treated right and that they were treated humanely.” (05:29)

• Public Defenders’ Essential Role:
  Public defenders, often under-appreciated, are described as “phenomenal” for defending those unable to hire private counsel and teaching officers to testify effectively.

  • Jay: “The defense attorneys that were assigned by the courts were phenomenal. They taught me how to be a better testifier in court.” (03:04)

The Imbalance of Power: Prosecutors’ Immense Authority

• Prosecutorial Dominance:

  • Iris: “All the power... sits with one single entity, and those are prosecutors. They have more power over cops. They have more power over the accused. They actually have more power than judges.” (07:40)
  • Jay: “And they also usually have total immunity from prosecution.” (08:09)

• Prosecutorial Immunity:
  Prosecutors cannot be sued for actions during prosecution, even when hiding exculpatory evidence or engaging in misconduct.

  • Iris: “The only lawyer and court actor… that cannot be sued and is not held accountable is a prosecutor.” (08:15)
  • “3-2-20, 25 marked 50 years of the you can’t sue us even when lives are ruined law.” (28:52)
  • Jay: “It doesn’t happen. I’ve never heard of that happening,” on prosecutors being prosecuted. (30:14)

• Plea Bargains and Unchallenged Evidence:
  Most cases end in plea deals, so evidence rarely faces scrutiny in court.

  • Iris: “Statistically, 98% of cases get plea bargained… most of the evidence is never tested.” (09:31, 09:54)

Wrongful Prosecutions and the Destructive Role of the Media

Life-Destroying Prosecutions

• Iris describes defending clients (e.g., a jail deputy, a detective, a contractor) who were wrongfully charged due to prosecutorial ambition, hidden evidence, or political motivations.
  • “Prosecutors who have all this power, they would coerce plea bargains when they knew one, there was evidence that they didn’t reveal that showed someone else committed the crime.” (14:23)
  • Case example: A jail deputy was prosecuted for his wife's suicide, despite all investigators agreeing it wasn’t murder. “He had lost so much—his relationship with his children, his job, his life…” (19:03)
  • Another: An investigator indicted for refusing to lie in a sheriff’s political race; charges dismissed only under pressure. (34:51)

Media Influence and Persistent Stigma

• The media often sensationalizes stories, never correcting public perception if someone is exonerated.
  • Jay: “Their name gets dragged through the mud… Very rare does media turn around and say, oh, by the way, we made a mistake. They’re found not guilty. If they do, that’s buried.” (17:49)
  • Iris: “Still, nearly 10 years, a decade later, this is what the prosecutors set in motion. And the media only assisted it. …48 Hours still airs that show.” (25:06)

Systemic Disillusionment and Long-Term Effects

• Impact on Practitioners:
  Prosecutorial misconduct and the lack of accountability led Iris to leave criminal law.

  • “That was produced to me after. And the worst of all is that when the judge started finding that the prosecutors were breaking the rules and was holding them accountable, the prosecutors went after the judge and secretly investigated the judge.” (36:43)

• “Presumption of Innocence” is a Myth in Practice:

  • Iris: “Once someone is charged with a crime, that’s it… The minute you’re charged with a crime, we all presume them to be guilty.” (23:55)

• Grand Jury System Critiques:

  • “You can indict a ham sandwich… when you see a prosecutor… go for a grand jury, [it’s] usually a sign they have a very weak case.” (38:49, Jay)
  • Iris explains how the grand jury process is stacked against the accused: “The prosecution is in a room by themselves… They are not required to put on any evidence of the person’s innocence.” (40:11)

Advocacy for Prosecutorial Accountability

• Protect Ethical Prosecutors:
  Iris’s new mission is championing greater transparency and accountability for prosecutors, not as an anti-prosecutor stance, but for public trust and system integrity.

  • “Real accountability is a shield for the good ones and a stop sign for the repeat bad actors… right now, bad actors can create massive harm and face almost no consequences.” (41:49)
  • “Accountability isn’t anti prosecutor, it’s pro integrity.” (42:05)

• Alarming Statistics:

  • “35% of all exonerations in the United States are a result of prosecutorial misconduct... And of that 35% that represents 12 years of innocent people’s lives is the average spent in prison that are innocent… 1 in 16 death penalty reversals are a result of prosecutorial misconduct.” (42:54)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “The criminal justice system is designed to protect the rights of the criminal, the victims... No one cares about.”
  — Jay Wiley, (06:37)

• “I call it a criminal legal system because... I don’t think it’s just.”
  — Iris Etan, (07:24)

• “Prosecutors have more power than cops, the accused, and even judges.”
  — Iris Etan, (07:40)

• “Prosecutors have complete, absolute immunity. And you know what, I’m going to tell you something. 3-2-20, 25 marked 50 years of the you can’t sue us even when lives are ruined law.”
  — Iris Etan, (28:52)

• “The minute that you’re charged with a crime, we all presume them to be guilty. The media has caused this to happen.”
  — Iris Etan, (23:55)

• “If it bleeds, it leads.”
  — Jay Wiley, on crime reporting, (26:43)

• “There should be a pitchfork number.”
  — Jay Wiley, on 35% exonerations due to prosecutorial misconduct, (42:49)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Background and Introduction: [01:00–03:44]
• The Role of Public Defenders and Attorneys: [03:44–05:29]
• Why Each Entered Their Profession: [05:29–07:02]
• Prosecutors’ Power and Immunity: [07:24–09:31]
• Plea Deals and Unchallenged Evidence: [09:31–10:26]
• Case of Wrongful Prosecution & the Media: [14:23–20:56]
• Presumption of Guilt and Public Perception: [23:55–26:43]
• Prosecutorial Immunity: Historical Context: [28:52–30:14]
• National Registry of Exonerations Stats: [31:03–32:39]
• More Cases of Prosecutorial Misconduct: [34:51–37:49]
• Grand Juries and Weak Cases: [38:49–41:32]
• Protect Ethical Prosecutors: Mission & Stats: [41:49–43:47]

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Final Thoughts & Resources

This episode exposes the dire need for transparency, accountability, and system reform in U.S. criminal courts—particularly regarding prosecutorial power and immunity. The personal trauma of wrongful accusations, compounded by sensational media narratives, leaves deep scars on defendants, law enforcement, and attorneys alike.

For more information on prosecutorial ethics and accountability, visit:
protectethicalprosecutors.org

Listen and connect:

• Law Enforcement Talk Radio Show [Website & Facebook]

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Summary prepared for listeners of Law Enforcement Talk: True Crime and Trauma Stories—offering insight for those who haven’t heard the episode, and providing clarity on a system where the stakes for justice, dignity, and truth couldn’t be higher.

Transcript

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[John J. Wiley]

She was a criminal defense attorney. Her involvement in her world famous murder case caused her lots of problems from the so called good guys, DAs, state's attorneys, whatever you want to call them. She's here to talk about the incident and her life after welcome to the Law Enforcement Talk Radio Show. In the Law Enforcement Talk Radio show we are joined by special guests talking about their experiences, their realities of investigating crimes, plus those who have experienced horrendous trauma. Police, first responders, military and victims of crime share their stories. Hi, I'm John J. Wiley. In addition to being a broadcaster, I'm also a retired police sergeant. Be sure to check out our website letradio.com and also like us on Facebook, search for the Law Enforcement Talk Radio Show. Of all the radio stations in the United States, there are no other shows like the Law Enforcement Talk Radio show on Facebook. There's only one official page. Do a search on Facebook for the Law Enforcement Talk Radio show and be sure to like the Law Enforcement Talk Radio Show Facebook page. Contest From Colorado we have Iris Eton on the Law Enforcement Talk Radio show. Iris is a former lawyer, criminal defense lawyer. We'll talk about her status and what how to address that now because I'll be honest, I don't know. Her website is protectethicalprosecutors.org and she was a defense attorney criminal defense attorney for 28 years. Iris, thanks for being a guest on Law Enforcement Talk Radio show telling us all about this. Very much appreciated.

[Iris Etan]

Thank you. I'm happy to be here.

[John J. Wiley]

It's Good to have you here too. And by the way, this is nothing personal. I am not a big fan of attorneys. And when they say attorneys, that means defense attorneys and prosecutors. I've had my go with both of them as a Baltimore cop. Trust me, you don't want to put your life in the hands of attorneys. I'll just say that

[Iris Etan]

I understand that. I think that a lot of people feel the same way you do, actually.

[John J. Wiley]

Well, and without beating a dead horse, I don't want to get on a soapbox, but a lot of attorneys want to becoming politicians. And they write laws that benefit attorneys and they don't benefit regular people. And I have a big problem with that. And I'll just say this. The prosecutors, most of them I dealt with, were really good. Most of the defense attorneys, especially the, the, the states, not, not the defense attorneys, but the defense attorneys that were assigned by the courts were phenomenal. They taught me how to be a better testifier in court. They were really good. They were very ethical people. Public defenders is the word I'm looking for.

[Iris Etan]

Yeah, you are. You're looking for public defenders who are court appointed when people don't have the resources to hire their own lawyer.

[John J. Wiley]

So you were a lawyer for 28 years. Are you practicing law now?

[Iris Etan]

No, I started off as a public defender, actually, like you were talking about, and then I practiced criminal defense in different aspects. And then now I no longer am a criminal defense lawyer. I still practice civil rights and. But I don't practice criminal defense anymore.

[John J. Wiley]

I blame you. First of all, the clientele. Pardon me, sucks.

[Iris Etan]

Well, I, I have to, you know, push back with you on that because I, I, you know, I feel very much see the human side of anybody, no matter what they're charged with. And yeah, I said, I say the

[John J. Wiley]

same thing too, until they shoot at me and then, oh, guess what? It's hard for me to look as a human being with feelings.

[Iris Etan]

Yeah, right. I mean, of course, you know, you're looking at it from the end of where you're at, which is, you know, from public safety. And I understand that. I don't. I just, My experience has been, you know, I became a lawyer because I wanted to help people. That's really, that's. I didn't become a criminal defense lawyer so I could, as people think, get people off. That was never my intention.

[John J. Wiley]

It's the same reason I became a cop, because I wanted to help people, actually. I wanted to be a priest first, and I decided the priesthood was not a calling for me. That whole celibacy thing I had a problem with. But police work allowed me to do a lot of great things to help people, and that's the reason why I did it. And very, very little of the job was about arresting people. And even those who did arrest, the vast majority were not hardcore criminals. That would cause you a problem.

[Iris Etan]

Right. I think that's a fallacy too. What you just said is that that's the important thing. I don't think that. That there's that many people that are committing these super violent crimes. And, you know, and like you, I really, sincerely might have been really naive. I mean, it was. I became a lawyer 30 years ago, and all I wanted to do was help people and make sure that they were treated right and that they were treated humanely. It's all I ever cared about. And I never really thought about what it felt like to be in a courtroom, to do cross examination. None of those things were important to me. In law school, I never took a single trial class because it wasn't on my radar. What was my radar was how do I use the law to help people, to give them power so that they can, you know, they can be the best person they can be. Whether, you know, it just seemed like the laws weren't there to protect them, and if they were, no one was there to help them use them. And that's all I wanted to do. That's it.

[John J. Wiley]

Right. And here's what my. And my pushback is. The criminal justice system. The criminal justice system is designed to protect the rights of the criminal, the victims. No one cares about, whether it be defense attorneys, prosecutors. No one cares about them and their welfare. And that's been my experience. And, you know, we both got into the job for the same reasons. And.

[Iris Etan]

Yeah.

[John J. Wiley]

And the thing is, as much as people would love to feel there's a lot of animosity towards police and defense attorneys. There is not. At least it was in my case.

[Iris Etan]

Mm. I mean, I think it's interesting that you think that. That the system protects the people that are charged more than they protect anybody else.

[John J. Wiley]

Yeah, they do.

[Iris Etan]

And, you know, at least in Maryland, they do. I mean, that's. Well, you know, I feel that all the power. All the power. And I don't call it a justice system because I don't think it's just. I think you probably agree with that.

[John J. Wiley]

There is. Yeah.

[Iris Etan]

Yeah, there's not. And from. No matter what angle you're looking at it from, I think, you know, I call it a criminal legal system because that's really. That's factually what it is to me. Right. But I think that the legal system, I think the power all sits with one single entity, and those are prosecutors. They have more power over cops. They have more power over the accused. They actually have more power than judges.

[John J. Wiley]

And they also usually have total immunity from prosecution. They can't be held responsible for what they do.

[Iris Etan]

Well, that's kind of where we're going to end up at the end of this, which is exactly right. They are. Cops can be sued for when they commit wrongdoing, and they should. And same for criminal defense lawyers and same for every other lawyer that exists in the United States. But the only lawyer and court actor that's not. That cannot be sued and is not held accountable is a prosecutor.

[John J. Wiley]

Right.

[Iris Etan]

And so their power is immense, you know? Right. Because prosecutors, as you know, get to decide. You bring them a case. Right, John. You bring them a case, say, hey, I think this guy should be charged. And they get to decide who, where, when, what, and how that person's gonna get charged.

[John J. Wiley]

And my biggest piece, my biggest complaint, Iris, was that we were bringing the. And I had a great conversation with my wife earlier this morning that you go to war with the army you have, you build a case. Not the army you want, the army you have, you build a case with the evidence that's presented, and we take it to the state's attorney. In my case, it called state's attorneys, so district attorneys, and they would decide whether you wanna prosecute or not. And a lot of them, they wouldn't prosecute, un. Felt they could win. And the win was usually in the form of a plea deal. It wasn't even a trial.

[Iris Etan]

Right, well, that's right. And I mean, that is. I mean, they get. So you. You work your case up with the evidence that you have, and then they get to decide, okay, am I going to be able to make a conviction or not? Right. And as you know, you know this, but like, statistically, 98% of cases get plea bargained. Right?

[John J. Wiley]

Right. Most of them do.

[Iris Etan]

So that means. Most do. Right. So that means that most of the evidence is never tested. Right. So because if you plea bargain a case, you're not testing the evidence in the case. So whatever you bring, your interviews and the evidence that you bring towards the DNA or whatever is that you bring from the lab, it's never really getting pressure tested. Because what all that's getting tested is the will of the accused. Right. Is, should I take this plea bargain that is going to like, that's going to escape me from these mandatory sentencing

[John J. Wiley]

rules and I'm not Take a short break. We're going to return our conversation with Iris Etan in just a moment. She's a criminal defense attorney practiced for 28 years. Her website now is protectethicalprosecutors.org that's protectethicalprosecutors.org this is law enforcement Talk Radio Show. In return, we're going to start talking about a world famous murder case that had a huge impact on her. If you want to be a guest on the law enforcement Talk radio show, simply contact us. It couldn't be easier. You can send us a message message on Facebook look for and like the Law Enforcement Talk Radio show page or email jetradio.com that's J A Y E T radio.com if you work in university

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[John J. Wiley]

Return to conversation with Iris Etan on the Law Enforcement Talk Radio Show. I love saying her name. Number one, Iris. We'll talk about in a moment. Etan makes me sound like I'm fancy. I know what I'm talking about. She was a defense attorney, criminal defense attorney. She practiced for 28 years. Her website is protectethicalprosecutors.org that's protectethicalprosecutors.org before we go into your story, Iris, that's a name you don't hear too much anymore. Your first name, Iris, it used to be pretty common. But you don't hear that anymore.

[Iris Etan]

No, you don't. It's. I don't. I don't know if it was ever common.

[John J. Wiley]

Do you what was much more common? I'm a much older guy than a lot of people think. When I was in my early teens, it was far more common. Names like Sylvia, Iris, a bunch of other ones were far more common than there are nowadays. You just don't hear them now. It's like everything is, it doesn't make sense at all.

[Iris Etan]

Well, I'm glad I have a unique name. I feel like I have a unique life and story too. So it goes with it.

[John J. Wiley]

So you were a defense attorney for 28 years and you said earlier in the conversation that you're no longer practicing law, you do civil rights law, you don't do criminal law anymore. And we had a little toe to toe about the clientele. And by the way, here's one thing when it comes to criminal law and they say opinions don't matter and say, yeah, they don't matter until you get in front of a judge and this so called expert and they're giving their expert opinion, then you don't want to be on the end end of that. And there's a lot of things that happen in trials I can't speak for Colorado, in Maryland, that I had established my expertise, all that, every trial I was into, I could tell you what would happen. I could predict almost with, without failure what the defense attorney's gonna do. But most times the state's attorneys wouldn't prosecute. They wanna make a plea deal. If they could make a plea deal, they'd drop the charges.

[Iris Etan]

Well, I mean, in my experience in Colorado, I think I tried, you know, nearly 100 cases. It's a lot. You know, it's a lot because as we talked about, there's so many cases get plea bargained, right? And it did. What I started to experience that eventually really broke me down was that prosecutors who have all this power, they would coerce plea bargains when they knew one there was evidence that they didn't reveal that showed someone else committed the crime. One that would happen, unfortunately, on really big cases. And the second thing that I experienced with prosecutors was that they would go after my clients and hide what you just talked about, kind of in a different way. But I had cases where like an architect's life was forever changed because the prosecutor, or the da, you call them state attorneys in Maryland, left him in jail and pursued a homicide case against him, knowing that the lead homicide detective and the lead crime scene expert opined in their expert opinion that it was a suicide. And the district attorney knew these things and never told me and never told, obviously my client and he walked through being in jail and losing his career, his reputation, you know, his house, everything, because his prosecutor was bent on getting a win and wanted to win at all costs and getting a notch on his belt and didn't report this. I mean, he didn't even call this prosecutor, didn't even call the lead homicide detective to testify in the case.

[John J. Wiley]

Right.

[Iris Etan]

Went through the whole a year of this. And, you know, I used to think, John, I mean, I trusted. It's weird, you know, being a criminal defense lawyer because people think that I hate cops because I'm naturally right. It's not true. I never walked through. Like I said, I wanted to help people. I never thought that anyone was a bad character. I looked at every case new as if it was, here's a new case, here's a new human being that I'm here to represent. Here are the people involved. Let me take a look at the facts. What's there, what's not there. I analyzed it not from like a skeptic point of view, like someone must be lying. And I trusted. The most important thing is I trusted the lawyers that I studied with and practiced with all through my career. Prosecutors, which are lawyers, and they took the oath to follow the Constitution just like I did. I thought they meant it.

[John J. Wiley]

Right. Well, the truth is, you found out they don't. You found out that a lot of them don't.

[Iris Etan]

Right, Right. But I was like, it seems so naive and childish looking at the world the way it is now, by the way, as you see. But like that, I was shocked when I encountered prosecutors who wanted to win more than they wanted to do the right thing and they broke the law. I was shocked that they were going after people and they broke the law themselves.

[John J. Wiley]

Here's the thing that you said so. And we'll return some specifics in a moment. But one of the things that happens, and I feel bad for the. The person that was charged with murder and they lose everything. They lose everything. Whether not guilty or not doesn't matter. But their name gets dragged through the mud, through the media. And very rare does media turn around and say, oh, by the way, we made a mistake. They're found not guilty. If they do, that's buried.

[Iris Etan]

Exactly. Oh, my God, it's so true.

[John J. Wiley]

And when they say not guilty doesn't mean innocent. It means not guilty. But they could be innocent as the day is long. But they'll never ever recaptured the dignity had before.

[Iris Etan]

John. I mean, I represented a jail deputy, okay, who worked in the jails, you know, that you know, their job, like they just, they're making sure people are complying in the jails and whatever. They don't carry guns or anything like that. Right. Because they're, they're working in the, you know, in the detention center. And his three children were devastated by his wife's suicide. And years later, he was charged with her murder. Like he. Because the prosecutors went to the grand jury instead of just charging him straight up, so went to the grand jury to kind of get like a, you know, a backdoor indictment, you know.

[John J. Wiley]

Well, that's your, you know, what move that a lot of states attorneys use.

[Iris Etan]

Exactly, exactly. And years later, during the trial, during the trial, I found out through getting a public records request, you know, going and asking a state agency to provide me all the communications that they were having with the district attorney's office. I found out during this man's trial, this is three years after his wife committed suicide, that the da, this same prosecutor, and all law enforcement involved in the investigation agreed that it was a suicide and this person should never have been charged. But because the media, like you were just saying, because the media and the family of this woman put so much pressure on the prosecutor to do something, he went to the grand jury and never revealed that he and law enforcement had this opinion. And so this man was acquitted. But guess what? Nothing ever happened to the prosecutor. He's still prosecuting. Okay. And even worse, even worse. I mean, the jury was so angry. I mean, they. After a three week trial and three years of this guy being under such scrutiny by the public, they acquitted him in a matter of two hours. You know, it was like the fastest acquittal I've ever seen. It was emotional watching this guy. I mean, he had lost, you know, so much of his relationship with his children and his job and his life, and he couldn't move back to the state where he lived at the time. So he was separated from his children for almost two years. While this is going on, in and out of jail. And in the meanwhile, what's happening in the news? Oh, oh, Lifetime 48 Hours is publishing hour long shows about how guilty this guy is with no evidence that they actually made it up.

[John J. Wiley]

We'll return our conversation with Iris in just a few moments. Her website is protectethical prosecutors.org and we will talk about that, what her mission is in a few moments. Don't go anywhere. We'll be right back. Get access to free podcast versions of the show and more on Facebook. Do a search for the law enforcement talk radio show and Be sure to

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[John J. Wiley]

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[Iris Etan]

Yeah. Guilty or not. Exactly. I mean, it doesn't matter. I mean, once you're. And you know this, John, like once, once. Once you, not you. But once someone is charged with a crime, that's it. You know, we all claim, you know, we live in this. People hear the term presumption of innocence all the time. Oh, you're presumed innocent. You're presumed innocent until you're found guilty. People, no matter, no matter where you have been or been, not educated, everybody knows that's the truth, right? Except for the minute that you're charged with a crime, we all presume them to be guilty. The media has caused this to happen, right? That anyone who's charged is automatically a monster. That. Period, end of story. We put pictures of people in their, you know, their booking photos with wearing their, you know, their handcuffs all over the news. I mean, they don't even allow that in Europe. It's not allowed until the person is convicted. They allow, put up the pictures, do

[John J. Wiley]

that on my show, period. Because. And it's simple. I give zero publicity to anybody whether they're guilty or not. I don't put their name out there. I don't put a photo. I don't do anything.

[Iris Etan]

I honor that so much, John, I have to tell you, because that's rare, you know, that's clickbait, you know, that we know of. And that's how, you know, these media industries are racking in shows and eyeballs just like the one I was talking about with his jail deputies. So now this guy, so look at this. This guy was found not guilty by a jury, okay? Even after the DA himself said there was no probable cause to even arrest him and went after him for murder. Okay? And so this guy's grieving the loss of his wife, he's raising his three children alone. You know, he's gone through the wringer with the criminal legal system. And what's happening now to this day, that was 2017, to this day, 20, 25, 48 hours still airs that show. Hour long show, three times a year, they still air it. And people reach out to me saying, thinking that I just tried the case. Oh, Iris, I just saw you on tv. Good job on your trial. Ooh. That guy kind of seem. Seems a little guilty. I'm like, what? What, what in the heck, right? I mean, this is how powerful the media is. This guy still, still nearly 10 years a decade later, this is what the prosecutors set in motion. And the media only assisted it. It was like an easy push let's charge this guy with a crime, make him look like he's guilty. What does, what in the heck does 48 Hours know about the evidence in the case?

[John J. Wiley]

They don't care.

[Iris Etan]

And then they continue to reveal this guy as he's a guilty guy. It is horrific and heart wrenching to me.

[John J. Wiley]

One of the things that we used to say in Baltimore, and it's pretty much a nationwide thing, and it really applied at the time to print media, newspapers. If it bleeds, it leads. And that's the hook they use. And you look at the headlines and I wanted to say this right now, news so true, whether it be printing, whether it be online, whether it be radio, whether it be television, doesn't matter. They're always going to, depending on the audience they want to get, they're going to use the most inflammatory statements first. So, for example, cop shoots man who ran from car. They don't talk about. Like, there's a case in Key West, Florida, this guy had multiple DUIs. Multiple. He knew he had a problem with alcohol and yet he drank anyway. When the police got behind, went to pull him over, he decided to run in the car. When they had a wreck, he decided to run and flee. Then he decided to fight the police. Anywhere I'm getting shot and killed, though. There's a lot of things this guy could have done beforehand that would have prevented all this stuff from happening, starting with not drinking and driving.

[Iris Etan]

Right. I mean, look, I agree with you that how the media packages up crime is irresponsible and unethical. And listen, that's what, if you want to talk about it, that's what really brought me to my emotional knees in the last case that I ever represented somebody in because of the media and the prosecutor that were working together to sour this guy's potential to have a fair trial and to ruin his life. And only to elevate the DA and the media to, you know, give them high ratings and give her a stage, this prosecutor, a stage maybe perhaps to elevate this person too, so she could run for higher office.

[John J. Wiley]

And by the way, what people say a lot of times afterwards, oh, they'll sue them, they'll win in court. Oh, really? A lot of those people have. They don't have a qualified immunity. They got total immunity.

[Iris Etan]

And that's the thing they can do. That's the thing. Police officers in most states have qualified immunity, meaning they have immunity only to a point. Prosecutors have complete, absolute immunity. And you know what? I'm going to tell you something. 3-2-20, 25 marked 50 years of the you can't sue us even when lives are ruined law. 50 years. That's when the United States Supreme Court passed their own enacted legislation, which they're not allowed to do. Right, but they are the ones that just decided that prosecutors can never be sued for actions committed while they're prosecuting. Not to hide evidence of innocence, not

[John J. Wiley]

to hide, not to go against judges. But most of those Supreme Court justices were lawyers, right?

[Iris Etan]

There are lawyers. No. Now all Supreme Court justices in the United States are United States Court. They're all lawyers. And yeah, they decided. They decided collectively. They made a decision that, you know what, 50 years ago. We don't want prosecutors busy with worrying about being sued. And there's other ways that they're gonna get. They're gonna be held accountable. You know, look, there's bar associations, they're gonna take their licenses away and they can be criminally prosecuted, John, you know. Cause we know that prosecutors are gonna prosecute other prosecutors when they break the law.

[John J. Wiley]

Right? It doesn't happen. I've never heard of that happening.

[Iris Etan]

That's right, it doesn't. It hasn't. You're right, because it hasn't. It hasn't happened once. And you know, just to reveal, the big reveal is this. The data is clear. I mean, the gold standard for understanding what's going on in this country in the legal system is that is the National Registry of Exonerations. It is a very, very exclusive, research oriented database. And what it's showing of the people we know that have been wrongly incarcerated and then exonerated, so they were convicted and then later found to be innocent. Because usually a DNA. Right, right. That's usually what happens. Right. So science is really more truthful than people, honestly.

[John J. Wiley]

On that note, I want to jump in really quickly. There was a guy I had on my show a while ago, and I'm as guilty as the next person. I used to think Twitter, smoke, there's fire. This guy, he had a female classmate when he's in high school that was killed, that was murdered. And it's a horrible thing, but they thought he did it. And he wound up, he was 16, he wound up confessing to it, and he wound up going to prison for I think 20 years. And guess what? DNA cleared him. Because they found a serial killer's DNA on their person's body and he's released from prison. That happens and it happens and people say it all the time and I'm right there with them. There's a reason why in states. We still have the death sentence that it takes 10, 20, 30 years for the execute someone because sometimes they find out that they were not the person who did the crime. We're talking with Iris Eden. She was a criminal defense attorney in Colorado. She practiced for 28 years. She now does civil rights law. Her website is protectethicalprosecutors.org, that's protectethicalprosecutors.org this is law Enforcement Talk Radio Show. We're going to talk a little bit more about cases that, let's just say, put an end to your career and what she does about it today. Don't go anywhere. We'll be right back. Of all the radio stations in the United States, there are no other shows like the law enforcement talk radio show. And on Facebook, there's only one official page. Do a search on Facebook for the law enforcement Talk radio show and be sure to like the law enforcement Talk radio show Facebook page.

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[Alex Kanchrowitz]

Hi, this is Alex Canceroitz. I'm the host of Big Technology Podcast, a longtime reporter and an on air contributor to cnbc. And if you're like me, you're trying to figure out how artificial intelligence is changing the business world and our lives. So each week on Big Technology, I bring on key actors from companies, companies building, AI tech and outsiders trying to influence it, asking where this is all going. They come from places like Nvidia, Microsoft, Amazon, and plenty more. So if you want to be smart with your wallet, your career choices, in meetings with your colleagues and at Dinner parties. Listen to big technology podcast wherever you get your podcasts.

[John J. Wiley]

Return to conversation with Iris Ethan on the law enforcement talk radio show. Conte is from Colorado. She was a criminal defense attorney in Colorado. She's still an attorney. She practiced criminal law for 28 years. She doesn't do that anymore. And her website is protectethicalprosecutors.org that's protectethicalprosecutors.org. so, Iris, after all this stuff you talked about, this is one of the case involving the deputy, the corrections officer was one of the cases that kind of disillusioned you. Was there more?

[Iris Etan]

Yeah, there's been a lot, but they added up. You know, I represented the sheriff in one case, the sheriff's top investigator who was indicted because he refused to testify against his boss, a sheriff running for office. And there was a lot of politics around whether or not that sheriff should be, you know, the sheriff or should be the other. The other person running.

[John J. Wiley]

Right.

[Iris Etan]

And they didn't like that. This investigator wouldn't lie. And so they manufactured, prosecutors manufactured a case claiming this investigator was part of an arrest that never should have happened. And he wasn't there during the arrest. He had nothing to do with the arrest. They knew that and they charged him anyway. And they charged him with felony charges. And it ruined his life and his career. He was financially depleted and his reputation was soured. And, you know, so that case eventually was dismissed under pressure that I was going to take them to trial. And they didn't have any evidence to prove it other than really the evidence that proved he was innocent. And so I'm glad you did that case. Me, too. And I mean, look, but I mean, it's like, you know, you have. I represented the jail deputy and I represented the sheriff's top investigator in another. In another county. And then I represented this man who was a contractor. And prosecutors decided that he had to be the one that committed. That committed this. That committed this murder. And they didn't have any evidence, and they just decided he had to be the one. They had no other suspect. When they filed the affidavit with the court saying this is what we believe happened, there really wasn't any dots that were connecting about why it was him and what they left out of the affidavit that I found out only a year later. And right before they dismissed the case over the period of a year, I started finding out what they hid. They hid DNA evidence that pointed to unknown male DNA that was all over the house and in the car that was in the garage where she went missing, there was statements made by experts in the case saying, don't trust all of this cell phone data. It's not trustworthy. Don't trust it. Don't go to the judge and tell him that you think it's right that this is where the accused was. It's not correct. And then they were telling witnesses what to say and not to say. And that was produced to me after. And the worst of all is that when the judge started finding that the prosecutors were breaking the rules and was holding them accountable, the prosecutors went after the judge and secretly investigated the judge.

[John J. Wiley]

That's crazy.

[Iris Etan]

Yes. Crazy. And using the media.

[John J. Wiley]

You would think, Iris, that would be a made for TV movie. Remember back in the day, made for TV movies? It's like a real beast movie.

[Iris Etan]

It will be, I think it will be one day. It should be, you know, it was. I mean, to think that this prosecutor started off the case. Started off the case, John, by going on a podcast to talk about the case. It's unheard of that a prosecutor and nothing should never happen to talk in public.

[John J. Wiley]

One of the things, and by the way, there's someone that, that is a defense or a prosecuting defense attorney. I don't know where the status is now. It's all over the media and I'm like to my wife, I can't stand this person. I can't stand the way they talk. I can't stand anything about them. I want to revert back a little bit. This is something that you and I are probably going to agree on. One of the biggest things we used to say is you can indict a ham sandwich, you can indict the pope. And when you see a prosecutor, whatever terminology you want to use, go for a grand jury is usually a sign they have a very weak case.

[Iris Etan]

It is.

[John J. Wiley]

If it's a strong case, why not just charge them?

[Iris Etan]

Right? Why not just charge him? I mean, when you have an, when you have an election, you can, you know, you. A lot of the time, okay, I will say this, I will say this. I, you know, I will say this. Sometimes they have to go to a grand jury because maybe it's a high profile case and they claim that, you know, they want to get, you know, these, the witnesses, you know, in a secret place to really find out what they're going to say before they start investigating and charging the person. But I'm going to tell you, I get that too, but not in the cases that I've ever handled, including this last one.

[John J. Wiley]

One of the ones that seems to be the most politically motivated cases usually go for the grand jury first more than other ones. And there are other ones. We've had murder cases go to grand jury that the convicted was as wrong as the day is long. They were as guilty as the days long. However, especially when you case with police, use of force, all that, they'll go to grand jury because they can turn around and say, oh look, they indicted him, it was their choice or they let him go. Should know grand 100%. Right?

[Iris Etan]

And John, and this is the thing that when people say you can indict a ham sandwich, this is why, and you and I both know this, but so no. So the defense doesn't get a lawyer.

[John J. Wiley]

Right.

[Iris Etan]

The defendant usually doesn't testify. They can elect to testify or not the accused. And so the prosecution is in a room by themselves deciding what evidence they want to put on and what evidence they don't want to put on. They are not required to put on any evidence of the person's innocence.

[John J. Wiley]

None.

[Iris Etan]

So they don't have to tell. They don't have to tell the grand jury. There's DNA that points to somebody else. They don't have to. There's no requirement that they, the case will never be thrown out because of that. Never. So the prosecutor gets to tell this grand jury put on witnesses, by the way, that are usually just like cumulative witnesses. They call that like a summary witness. Like, hey, I talked to these 10 people and this is what they said.

[John J. Wiley]

Right.

[Iris Etan]

Okay, that, that's, that's so, so the grand jury is hearing this. Yeah, the grand jury can hear, can ask questions, but usually the prosecution's in there saying, look, you know, you guys want to keep coming back, you know, every week and hearing this evidence or like, do you want to move along here? Like this is just going to take more time.

[John J. Wiley]

I don't agree with the prosecution. It's too one sided and the reason why I'm cutting off ours, we're getting short on time. And I agree wholeheartedly. Listen, if a case has merit and is full discovery, all the evidence is put out there and you still decide to go to trial, go to trial, try the thing and get a jury, do whatever you do. If it's not cut them loose, just end the story. Cut them loose.

[Iris Etan]

Agreed. Agreed.

[John J. Wiley]

You don't do criminal law anymore, but you still, and I like your website name protectethicalprosecutors.org because there are a lot of ethical prosecutors out there, there and they, they need protection just like from the. The negative ones.

[Iris Etan]

Right, exactly. And that's. Look, I get sometimes why the name raises eyebrows. Because, because, because what I'm trying to do is I'm trying to increase transparency and accountability. Right. And. And, and I think real accountability is a shield for the good ones.

[John J. Wiley]

Yeah.

[Iris Etan]

And a stop sign for the repeat bad actors. Right. So we're protecting the ethical ones by changing the incentive structure. Like, hey, right now bad actors can create massive harm and face almost no consequences. Right. And I think that poisons public trust for everybody, including the prosecutors who do it. Right, right. And accountability isn't anti prosecutor, it's pro integrity. And the point of this is to draw a bright line. Right. To say, let's protect good faith prosecutors and hold intentional misconduct accountable so it stops repeating. Right. We should have enough of this. 35% of exonerations in our country are because of prosecutorial misconduct because they hide evidence of incident.

[John J. Wiley]

Say that again, sister. Because that should be an alarming number. There should be a pitchfork number.

[Iris Etan]

Yes. Okay, so I'm gonna give you the numbers. I'm gonna give you three numbers right now. Okay? 35% of all exonerations in the United States are a result of prosecutorial misconduct. And the type of misconduct we're talking about is hiding favorable evidence, destroying favorable evidence, putting on false evidence. All right? That's what we're talking about. And of that 35% that represents 12 years of innocent people's lives. Is the average spent in prison that are innocent? That shouldn't be there. 1 in 16 death penalty reversals are a result of prosecutorial misconduct. People on death row because prosecutors are hiding evidence of innocence and putting on false evidence in front of the jury.

[John J. Wiley]

We're out of time. On that note, Your website is protectethicalprosecutors.org that's protectethicalprosecutors.org Iris, thank you so much for stimulating conversation and for all you've done. Both very much appreciated.

[Iris Etan]

Thank you so much for having me.

[John J. Wiley]

I'd like to thank our guests for coming on the Law Enforcement Talk Radio Show. The Law Enforcement Talk Radio show is a nationally syndicated weekly radio show broadcast on numerous AM&FM radio stations across the country. We're always adding more affiliate stations. If you enjoyed the podcast version of the show, which is always free, please do me a favor and tell a friend or two or three. I'll be back in just a few days with another episode of the Law Enforcement Talk Radio show and Podcast. Until then, this is John J. Wiley. See ya.

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[Alex Kanchrowitz]

Hi, this is Alex Kanchrowitz. I'm the host of Big Technology Podcast, a longtime reporter and an on air contributor to cnbc. And if you're like me, you're trying to figure out how artificial intelligence is changing the business world and our lives. So each week on Big Technology, I bring on key actors from companies building AI tech and outsiders trying to influence it, asking where this is all going. They come from places like Nvidia, Microsoft, Amazon, and plenty more. So if you want to be smart with your wallet, your career choices, in meetings with your colleagues and at dinner parties, listen to Big Technology Podcast. Wherever you get your podcasts.

[Josh Spiegel]

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[John J. Wiley]

It really does help the show to grow.

[Josh Spiegel]

Thank you for listening.