← Law Enforcement Talk: True Crime and Trauma Stories
Law Enforcement Talk: True Crime and Trauma Stories
The Truth Being A Baltimore Maryland Police
00:54:39
The Truth, Being a Baltimore, Maryland Police Officer: Crime, Violence, and Survival. A Special Episode. In a media landscape dominated by headlines, hashtags, and heated debates, few stories cut through the noise with honesty. A special episode of the Law Enforcement Talk Radio Show and Podcast does exactly that, by telling the truth about what it really means to be a Police Officer, Cop in Baltimore, Maryland.
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Podcast Host
Happy Holidays. Want to give your host a gift? Consider subscribing, rating and reviewing the show this holiday season. It really helps the show grow from all of us at Believe. Have a Merry Christmas everyone and a happy holiday.
- [01:20]
John J. Wiley
I'm a guest with Abby Ellsworth on her podcast on Being a Police Officer, talking about my career in law enforcement. Four officer involved shootings in a little more than 10 years. The realities and shattering myths about law enforcement officers and in particular use of force. Welcome to the Law Enforcement Talk Radio Show. In the Law Enforcement Talk Radio show, we are joined by special guests talking about their experiences, their realities of investigating crimes, plus those have experienced horrendous trauma. Police force, first responders, military and victims of crime share their stories. Hi, I'm John J. Wiley. In addition to being a broadcaster, I'm also a retired police sergeant. Be sure to check out our website letradio.com and also like us on Facebook search for the Law Enforcement Talk Radio Show. It's a special episode featuring me as a guest on the show on Being a Police Officer with Abby Ellsworth.
- [02:18]
Abby Ellsworth
Today I'm thrilled to have as my guest John J. Wiley. He is he is the host of the popular Law Enforcement Radio show and podcast. Jay is a retired police sergeant. He was with the Baltimore Police Department from 1980 to 1992. Jay, welcome and thank you so much for joining me today.
- [02:36]
John J. Wiley
Abby, thanks so much for having me as a guest I very much appreciate the opportunity to speak to your audience.
- [02:41]
Abby Ellsworth
Well, thank you. And I really enjoy your podcast and all that you're doing and the stories you tell, so it's a real honor for me to have you. First, I want to thank you for your service.
- [02:50]
John J. Wiley
You're quite welcome. I never. I never quite know how to reply to that, but thank you.
- [02:56]
Abby Ellsworth
Well, I think it's important. And I noticed on Facebook yesterday, you posted that it was the 30th anniversary of your retirement.
- [03:03]
John J. Wiley
Yeah. And it's. I was talking to my wife about it, and it's funny because sometimes it seems like a lifetime ago, and other times it seems like just a few months ago, but the reality is I've been in radio now longer than I was a police officer, and. And I'm very proud of my police service, and I'm also very proud of my radio career, and both of them are a big part of who I am and what I am.
- [03:25]
Abby Ellsworth
Well, what I would really like to do is get your story. I know that you retired at the young age of 33 due to a medical retirement due to an incident, but I'd like to start with what drew you to law enforcement. You've referenced it as a vocation and how much it meant to you. So I'd love to know what drew you to be a police officer.
- [03:46]
John J. Wiley
It was about serving people. Before that, I really thought long and hard about being a priest, a Catholic priest. And I jokingly say I went on a date, had some Miller Light, and decided that wasn't my vocation, but policing was right behind it. Because in my mind at the time, it was doing more the same. Being a public servant, serving people, helping people solve their problems, and putting, for lack of better words, bad guys in jail. Because, well, I didn't. I really didn't have a big concept of how violent it was, but I thought, this is something I could do and I wanted to do. And to be honest, I was shocked at the time that the Baltimore Police Department hired me, and I was like, am I. Am I ready for this? Am I tough enough for this? Mentally, physically? I don't know. But that's the reason why. It was just to serve.
- [04:31]
Abby Ellsworth
Were you tough enough? Were you ready?
- [04:33]
John J. Wiley
I was not ready. I was much better at the physical part of it than I thought. And where I worked, it was always very high crime, lots of violence. It was far more violent of a job than I imagined. I'm not talking about just violence towards me, violence towards people, domestics, child abuse, children being hurt, children Being killed, car accidents, house fires, you name it. Then there were the assaults on me. I was in four shootings in a little less than 11 years and a couple close calls where I've been stabbed once, had smoke inhalation twice. I've had multiple surgeries on my right hand and wrists, steel plates, and I call my scars street tattoos and my steel plates body ornaments.
- [05:19]
Abby Ellsworth
Well, and I know you've mentioned the four shootings in your podcast and you did not have to fire your weapon the first two.
- [05:28]
John J. Wiley
I did not. Here's the reason why I bring it up. There is a mindset that Hollywood in particular and the news media, social media, puts out that police shoot and they're trigger happy and they shoot every time there's any kind of justification and even when there's not. Most of police I know have been involved in multiple situations where they could have used deadly force and opted not to. The first two, very quickly, I was a rookie police. It was a stolen car. They took off and hit me in the right front or left front of my car. And then a revolver came out the window and started firing at me. And just like the TV movies, I was up on the curb running over street signs, all that stuff, and I didn't fire a shot. I ducked. We got the guys, we found the gun. It was not a big deal, but it was one of two like that. The second one, I was working narcotics. We saw a drug deal happen. A guy took off running. I started chasing him, and while he had his back to me running away, he did one of those maneuvers where he took his hand under his opposite armpit and fired a shot at me. And I saw something, that corner of my eye drop, and I wasn't sure what it was, but I just knew immediately in both situations, the threat to me was over. Pursued him, we caught him. It turns out it was the magazine for that gun, for falling out. So he was effectively unarmed at that point. But the first two never fired a shot. Had times where people pulled guns and knives and we didn't. This is before de escalation was a thing. We talked people down. There was a potential for shooting people, but we did not. And most of the time, most of police I know did not. It was a very fine line when the last two I was in were all out, knock down, dragged out gunfights, and they were ugly. And fortunately everybody survived.
- [07:19]
Abby Ellsworth
So you're saying he turned around, fired under his arm?
- [07:21]
John J. Wiley
Oh, yeah, that happens quite often. People run away and they shoot at you. And so you'll Hear a news report, but the officer shot him in the back as if they're doing something wrong. Well, quite often these people are running away and firing at you the same time, either over their shoulder or under their arm.
- [07:37]
Abby Ellsworth
And you said he dropped a magazine, meaning the magazine from the gun.
- [07:40]
John J. Wiley
I believe it was an old.32 semiautomatic. And effectively, after I shot, went out, it was effectively disabled, so I just pursued him on foot.
- [07:49]
Abby Ellsworth
Okay, got it. But you would certainly, under those circumstances, you could see why an officer would shoot.
- [07:57]
John J. Wiley
And I've had people tell me, abby, look, if I was there, I'd have done this. And my answer is, you weren't there. You know, we have the same training through most apartments, so there's a legal threshold about fear for your life, fear for your safety, or the life and safety of someone else. There are other times we were allowed to shoot. We didn't. Is a fleeing felon of the dangerous type, a convicted fleeing felon, the dangerous type, you couldn't apprehend any other way. And a great way to explain is, say you're a police officer and you see someone shoot somebody and they take off running, and you can't stop them, but they're still alarmed. They're not firing at you. In theory, you'd be justified shooting at them because they're a dangerous criminal and they put everybody else in danger. But most would not do it.
- [08:44]
Abby Ellsworth
I know of an officer that did. And it was justified for that reason.
- [08:48]
John J. Wiley
Absolutely. It's justified. But here's the thing. And you've interviewed many, many people in law enforcement. No one goes into a situation I know of wanting to shoot somebody. And the amount of pressure, the amount of stress. In our case, if you shoot someone and you kill someone, you're a police officer, it's a homicide investigation, and you're the suspect until proven otherwise. So there's a threat of being arrested, being indicted, having to get attorneys, your family losing their health care, all that stuff, your employment, all that stuff goes in, not the least of which is the moral catastrophe from having to take a life. No one wants to do that, right?
- [09:31]
Abby Ellsworth
Absolutely. I did an entire episode about this. Episode 21. I interviewed Patrick Shaver, who is a filmmaker and former police officer. He did a documentary called Officer Involved. And it's the impact of a deadly force encounter on the officer. Not something we tend to talk about. And it's everything you say. It's the, you know, the legal aspects and also the incredible emotional toll it takes on the officer and. And their families. And you're right, no one does want to do that. And the problem is it could happen at any time. So you love the job. Are there people you remember, incidents you remember, good or difficult? What were the rewards?
- [10:23]
John J. Wiley
You know, to answer it honestly, it's been so long, there are times I remember. I'll give you a brief play by play by. My biggest fear, one of my biggest fears was having to deliver a baby. And I got a call for a woman in labor in a high rise project and she had some special needs. And I was there by myself and I was like, please, saying silent prayers. Please, dear God in heaven, do not let her deliver this baby while I'm here. Let the paramedics get here, get her to the hospital. Fortunately, she was fine. The baby was fine. There's another case where we had a suicidal woman in a house on Valentine's Day. I was a patrolman and she was on one side of a kitchen table and she's holding a straight razor like box cutter knife and threatening to kill herself. And we were talking to her for a long period of time. Now this is February in Baltimore, and they have a tendency to make the rooms really, really hot, open up the ovens and all that stuff and the, the substandard housing. So we're talking to this woman and no one wants to use force against her. And she's holding a knife in a threatening manner. And I start talking to her and saying, you know, I'm single at the time. It's Valentine's Day. Here I am, I'm working as a police officer. Life can be pretty bad. I've had women stand me up on dates, relationships, I thought be forever weren't forever. And she said, you know, I kind of think you understand what I'm talking about. And she said, do you want something to drink? I was like, yeah, I'm dying of thirst over here. And she put down the knife for just a moment, at which point I kicked the table over, broke my toe. And we got her subdued before she can grab the knife again. These kind of things happen all the time. They happen all across the United States and, you know, no one hears about it. No one hears about it. What they hear about is, oh, this person had a mental health issue and the police who were called to help them shot him. That's what we hear about. We never hear about the thousands of stories where the people are disarmed and they got the help they need at risk of the people that were there.
- [12:25]
Abby Ellsworth
Right. All the time.
- [12:26]
John J. Wiley
It happens all the time, Abby. But you Know that's not sexy. That doesn't sell papers, that doesn't get people to turn on your television show.
- [12:33]
Abby Ellsworth
No, it doesn't. It's not what makes the news. They don't talk about the officer with crisis intervention training who shows up and successfully de escalates a situation or successfully gets a person in crisis the help they need. It is very frustrating. You mentioned being on patrol when responding to this call. Every officer starts in patrol. What was your journey? I know you promoted to sergeant. Did you get into specialty units?
- [13:02]
John J. Wiley
What was your first job out of the academy was? I was assigned to patrol the midnight shift. I believe it was in the Northwest district of Baltimore. And I remember driving there and it was. I was a real culture shock. The language being used, everything else was a totally contradiction of what I was used to. I remember a patrol officer, I was on a domestic call, and she said, this guy, my son's been calling me B's and H's and sell me wolf tickets. And I'm like, I don't know what that means. I have no idea what you're talking about. So after the call was over, I acted as if I talked to the senior officer. I was like, what are they saying that's disrespecting you, that's calling you out, your name, all those things. Oh, okay. So I kind of knew. But after working patrol for a few years, I began to show an expertise in stolen cars, violent crime, and also at the time, we had a problem in my post with a heavily armed Jamaican drug gang. And we had riots with them and a bunch of other things. And I wound up being assigned to record operations division, which is like uniform patrol. We do some plain clothes work, but you don't have the obligation to handle calls you're put in to fight high crime areas. From there, I was assigned to the Northwest District Drug Enforcement Unit in plainclothes capacity. And then I was detailed the DEA recruited by them for about two years as a deputy US Marshal on DEA Task Force, at which time I scored high on a list. We successfully wrapped up the primary investigation and was promoted to sergeant. And I went to Central District, was there for a few years and went back to Northwest District where I got hurt and was eventually retired.
- [14:49]
Abby Ellsworth
So let's talk about that. I know this is quite a loss for you. I mean, 33 is really young and to have to give up that which you loved so much. And this is not a topic I've heard about or covered. You know, I've covered line of duty deaths, suicide and how those families are treated, how the family of an officer, of an officer involved is treated. But this is not one an on the job injury that forces your retirement. So tell me the incident and tell me what happened.
- [15:25]
John J. Wiley
I'll go to two. And they happen in rapid succession. First was we had a call from Baltimore county that they had a robbery murder where the suspect took the victim's brand new Corvette. And so we were looking through our area and I had another sergeant ride to me and I was like, I think it's going to be in this area for some reason. And it turns out just over the district line, the car was there, it was unattended. And I said, that kind of car is a trophy that parts will be back. A few moments later the guy came back and he got in the car, got into gunfight with police on that side. And I was blocking a one way street at that point in a brand new Mark patrol car, my lieutenant's car. And he said, whatever you do, don't get in an accident in that car. The new Chevy Caprice. This guy came around the corner, it looked like a Stephen King novel. Hitting cars, smoking tires. He had a.45 automatic, was firing out the window and hit me head on. And we got into a running gunfight in the middle of the street. And my partner who was sitting next to me, I had to reach over with my foot and kick the door open because it had buckled. And I had a.38 revolver, that's how long ago it was. And he was yelling at me not to get out of the car. I could hear gunshots, but I really couldn't hear him. It's almost as if he was a TV voice in another room. They call it audio distortion, tunnel vision. All it could focus on was this guy. And we got into a gunfight in the street. And I realized as I was in the middle street, I'd fired four out of six rounds. And I don't know if I'd hit flying ducks or what I'd hit, but he was trying to reload. The semiautomatic was stumbling with it. So I ran up and tackled him. And it turns out the reason he couldn't reload the guns, I'd shot him in the wrist and I didn't realize it. So he was successfully handcuffed, treated. I was sick as a dog afterwards, immediately throwing up and began the mental decline. Began before that. But that was a big point. And as fear is not the right word, but really I'm realizing I'm in the middle of the street with no cover, nowhere to hide, no concealment, and I'm outgunned. This guy's already killed someone, and he's willing to do whatever it took to get away. This is early. Days before, we had cell phones, Abby. We had the emergency response wheel, came up and had a cell phone in the van. You know, it's, like, mounted into it. So I called my wife at the time, and I said, you're going to see this all over the news. I want you to let you know I'm okay. But I didn't want her being fearful. We had two newborn babies at the time, so she got really angry. And I say that because not. Not in a negative way. She got really angry because she's fearful for my welfare.
- [18:10]
Abby Ellsworth
You're saying you had shot him in the wrist and he was unable to reload, so you tackled him?
- [18:18]
John J. Wiley
Because I knew I had. I only had two rounds left, and I had no cover. And if I didn't close enough ground and incapacitate him, neutralize him. Here's what we try to do. We try to neutralize him, no matter what, which way possible to end the threat to myself and others. In the meantime, I can hear gunshots off in the distance and my partner yelling at me. So I ran up, I tackled him, and the guy knew my name. He's like, sergeant Wiley, you shot me. Like, I did something horrible to him. I'm like, his name is Dondi. Dondi. You murdered someone and you're shooting at me? What's the matter with you? Wow.
- [18:54]
Abby Ellsworth
So in that moment, then you were able to neutralize him. You got him handcuffed, and then you were. When you said you got.
- [19:02]
John J. Wiley
You said, yeah, I immediately started throwing up because it was. It was a homicide investigation, not a homicide. It was a shooting investigation. At point, I'm a suspect, and I know what's coming. I've been through these before. I know what's coming. It's not like tv. It's not like, hey, we're gonna have a beer, the guys, and you'll be celebrated. It's not like that at all.
- [19:20]
Abby Ellsworth
Even though he wasn't. He was alive, you still go.
- [19:23]
John J. Wiley
You still do. It's a. It's an aggravated assault in our state. It's a shooting. I shot someone. And until it's justified, a crime against persons report is taken. The guy who's the murder suspect, the robbery suspect that I shot, is the victim, and I'm the suspect. And you've got to notify your attorneys.
- [19:44]
Abby Ellsworth
And in those days, there Was no body?
- [19:45]
John J. Wiley
No, there's no body cams back then.
- [19:47]
Abby Ellsworth
Did you have bullet dust?
- [19:48]
John J. Wiley
Yeah, we had soft body armor. And when I first started on the job we had front panel only and we didn't have back panels. And it was only guaranteed to stop a 9 millimeter or below. And they're supposed to be changed every five years. We found out. I think I had the same one for 12 years. So speed forward a few more months. I'm driving 610 sergeant and I see a stolen van. It's obviously stolen. I'm following the van and I called in and they come back. Is it occupied? Yep. When the dispatcher says it occupied, it's almost guaranteed that it's reported stolen. And the guy is driving normal speed all throughout these different areas. I could see him moving around the car like grabbing stuff, which got my senses, like, is he grabbing a gun? Is he grabbing a knife? Is he what? Turns out it was crack cocaine and lots of it. And eventually he winds up crashing and bailing out. And I get out of my car, get him on the ground. He's about my height, probably 10, 15 years younger. I jokingly say he's built like Lawrence Taylor in his prime. And I had my service revolver out and I was trying to. I had him on the ground. I was trying to reholster a service revolver, which time he pushed me and him off the ground, hit me. We got into a fight over the gun. And while we were fighting for the gun, it was twisted towards my face and he was firing off rounds right next to my head. All six rounds were fired. Fortunately, neither he nor I were hit. He had a bullet go through part of his jacket. He survived, but I thought I sprained my wrist. And it proceeded to get worse and worse. And I had multiple surgeries. 3. A total fusion of my right wrist, total fusion in the base of my right thumb. Two steel plates and was parked. And at that point it's can we find a job for you to do? Here's where things get interesting. You give your heart and your soul to an agency and when you get hurt and you can no longer do the job and I tell people you're one call away, one bad call away from life changing incident occurring. The moment you can no longer do the job, it's out of the police department's hands and it's into the bean counters, the lawyers, workers, comp everybody else. And you're a number, then you have to get lawyers. And my wife at the time was losing it. I was losing it because all that time on the job that I put in, and all the times I put my. Not just me, but everybody else I work with put their lives on a line and you were expendable. And to fight tooth and nail to get everything we got. There was a point in time where it was either quit, be fired, or hopefully you get retirement. And I went to the hearing February 28th of 1992, not knowing what's going to happen. And the guy says, you're retired. We called 66⅓, and it's over. See you later. And that was it. We had no idea at that point whether I had any future left, what stability we had. And sometimes I wonder, did they even remember who I was? The reality is you can love your job, many of us do love the job, but the job will not love you back.
- [23:02]
Abby Ellsworth
And so what destroyed your. You weren't shot. What?
- [23:06]
John J. Wiley
I guess the best way to explain it, the hand surgeon said, is if you're using, like a drill or an auger device, like you're trying to drill a hole into wood, and all of a sudden it snaps. Here's a good example. If you watch NASCAR or racing, and when they're getting ready to wreck, almost all of them will always take their hands off the steering wheel, because if you don't, what winds up happening is too much torque is exerted on the wrist and the thumb. Either break the thumb or you destroy your wrist. One of the two.
- [23:34]
Abby Ellsworth
And so then there's a period of time where you are seeing doctors getting treated. And they put you, what you said, on light duty. Desk.
- [23:45]
John J. Wiley
No, they had me home on. We used to call it, we have unlimited sick leave. So it was a line of duty injury. And then they said, you got to come back to work. We're going to have you be a dispatch supervisor. This was after the first of three surgeries. And I went back and just writing would cause my hand to swell up in the area. For I had the second one and the pain was tremendous, so I couldn't do it. And once we hit that point, between the lawyers, the doctors and everybody else, they said, he's got to retire. His career is over. He can no longer do police work. Can he do secretarial work? Yes. But at that time, they didn't want to have people that were being police paid a police sergeant salary doing clerical work.
- [24:25]
Abby Ellsworth
All law enforcement knows, but not all people know you cannot be a police officer if you can't use your hand. You have to be able to fire.
- [24:32]
John J. Wiley
This is my right hand. I'M right handed. So effectively I have. Technically I'm physically disabled. I don't say that proudly. I just say that that's the reality, the technical explanation. It. There's certain things I learned to do differently, but there's still things I can't do. There's things I can't grab, there's things I can't hold between my wrist being fused one position and the right thumb being locked into position carrying certain things I can't do. So the big problem was grabbing onto someone and subduing them. I can shoot, but I can't do much else. So the ability to use my strong hand, as it's called, as a defense mechanism or to grab someone is gone.
- [25:14]
Abby Ellsworth
And then it sounds like relatively unceremoniously, you were told to.
- [25:19]
John J. Wiley
Yes, I had a meeting. My wife and I were there and we had the, the hearing person and they. It was about five minutes in a windowless building in city hall and they said, okay, you're now retired, go have a good life. And you're shown the door and you make sure all your stuff's turned in. You get the retirement id, the retirement badge, all that stuff. There's no parties later on. There was a party for several people, but you're there one day and you're gone. And it could happen to anyone. They could be 25 years old, be shot, for example, and their career is over and they have no idea what they're going to do afterwards. And here's the real catcher of it. My pension at the time, 66% of what I made during my normal salary. But my health insurance immediately tripled and became a third of my pension. So we were crippled financially.
- [26:12]
Abby Ellsworth
So walk me through the emotions and what you're thinking.
- [26:15]
John J. Wiley
Those are really dark days, Abby. Back then it was. Depression is a term that's used a lot. I don't know that really fits it. Post traumatic stress is used a lot. I don't know that really fits it. There's extreme anger, there was a lack of identity. What do I do now? And all those things over a period of time. I started making mistakes. I stopped talking to my wife about what happened because she was pregnant. I didn't want her to be afraid any more afraid than what she was going through. I began to isolate more. I began to have nightmares and difficulty sleeping and extreme irritability. So I wound up drinking myself to sleep until passing out every night. And that creates for a very unhealthy situation. And our marriage wound up paying the price and through no fault to her, she didn't sign up for this. So within two, three years after my marriage was over, I was retired police. I didn't know what I was going to do with my Life. I was 33, 35, 36 at that time. And what do you do now? What do you do when you want to grow up? This is all I knew, this is all I thought I was good at. And it was all over. And I had zero coping skills at that point.
- [27:25]
Abby Ellsworth
Did anyone from the department reach out to you, the chief, your colleagues, to see how you were doing?
- [27:31]
John J. Wiley
No, they did not. Not at the time. And I understand it because of fear this could happen to so and so it could happen to me. And also they're busy. That we had a saying, suck it up, you're the police. That's how we called each other in Baltimore. You're the police. You got a job to do. There's time afterwards to nurse your wounds, everything else. So they were busy and they had their families to take care of. And it wasn't until many, many years later that I went to a district reunion party and I connected with people I worked with. And it's as if no time had ever passed between us. And all that hostility I had, all that anger I had, all the resentment of them feeling abandoned disappeared immediately. And I realized it was me that had the issue. It wasn't them. It was explainable now. That was my colleagues, the department, the administration, city hall, forget it. There's absolutely nothing from them. And they just wanted you retired and gone and off the books.
- [28:28]
Abby Ellsworth
How often does this happen? Have they gotten any better at it? Was this a point in time issue or is this an ongoing.
- [28:35]
John J. Wiley
It's still happening. We just posted an article on law enforcement today. Go to letradioshow.com I believe is in Michigan and a police officer was many year veteran of the agency. Was hit head on by a stolen car and had debilitating injuries. And they fired him because the cost of the medical care and the timeline for his improvement was too long. I've had guests on my show that were shot in the head during a pursuit and survived in Oklahoma lieutenant and got the minimum pension. Another was a sergeant SWAT call out shot with a.308 rifle. Major major injuries. He was fired because he couldn't return to duty. A deputy in Texarkana, Texas shot multiple times by a serial rapist. Left to die on the side of the road. Debilitating injuries. I believe he was 25 at the time. When he's retired, he got Social Security retirement That's it. They lost everything they have. They lost their house. They lost everything. Literally. If there's a person eating beanie weenies, it's this guy, because he can't do anything and is through no fault of his own. He did his job, he did what he's paid to do, he did what was asked to do, and he. He and his family paid the price.
- [29:54]
Abby Ellsworth
I don't understand.
- [29:55]
John J. Wiley
Well, people don't realize this happens. There's a mindset that if you're a police or firefighter or EMT and you get hurt with a physical injury, you'll be taken care of. We used to tell each other from the academy, if something bad happens to you, we'll take care of you. You'll be taken care of. Your family will be taken care of. What that really means if you're killed in line of duty, there's insurances that your family be well taken care of financially, and they will be there for a while. But if you are physically harmed and unable to do your job anymore, you're on your own.
- [30:26]
Abby Ellsworth
That's just awful.
- [30:27]
John J. Wiley
That's the reality of what happens. And it's not just our police, our firefighters, our emt, it's our military as well. It happens all the time. And here's something I'll say that. Have you ever noticed, especially around election time, we hear all these commercials about these evil corporations not taking care of their people? You know who really doesn't take care of their people? It's the government. It doesn't take care of their people. State, county, city, local, even federal don't take care of their people. And those who are legitimately banged up, injured, and have debilitating injuries quite often pay a heavy, heavy price. I had a guy on my show named Victor Avila who was a federal agent ambushed in Mexico. His partner was killed. He had debilitating injuries. He was suspended with pay and treated like a common criminal. When they brought him back to the United States, he had to fight to get the bare minimum of a pension. It's just horrible what happens to people.
- [31:20]
Abby Ellsworth
I had no idea.
- [31:21]
John J. Wiley
Most people don't. Abby, it's not your fault. People don't tell you. If we don't tell people this, they won't know because the news media is not telling them. Social media is not telling people. And that's a big reason why I do. My radio show, which I'm sure you'll talk about later, is providing a platform for people to tell their stories.
- [31:38]
Abby Ellsworth
Your podcast, your radio show, they're important platforms to get the word out. And I'm sure there are a lot of people who really need to hear what you're telling them. I'm sure there are a lot of people who find that great comfort in what you're doing. And the rest of us, the education that we need. You talk about a few years after that and how difficult that was. Well, you've turned it all around. You have a wonderful career. So let's talk about how you picked yourself up and put yourself back together.
- [32:08]
John J. Wiley
Well, I had a lot of help, thankfully, without being melodramatic. There was a time where I was really out of options and my marriage was over. I didn't know if I'd see my kids. We spent many years apart. We have a very good relationship now. They're in their 30s. And I eventually wound up going to a treatment center in Florida that no longer existed for law enforcement only. And they helped me tremendously in ways that other people couldn't. And I'm not saying other people didn't try. There are people with lots of skills and training and book smarts and. But they've never been through it. And that began the transformation process for me. And I got a lot of help from military combat veterans, particularly at the time, Vietnam era veterans that took me under the wing and showed me how to deal with these things better and to embrace that I have these scars, physical, men, mental. And it's okay. Doesn't mean we jokingly say all the time on my show I'm damaged goods. But that doesn't mean I'm worthless. If you watch nascar, for example, quite often the car that wins a race has a lot of dents in it. It's got tape and Bond Bondo stuff on it. Keeping it together so I can be damaged, dinged, indented, and still have a productive, happy life. I'm remarried. My wife and I have a great marriage. We were married over 20 years. Been together, it was 25. I've been in radio full time about 18 years now. I've been in broadcasting about 20 years. And here's the funny thing. Apparently, like one of my bosses is sitting next to me. They'll say, hey, we don't want you to get stressed out having to do this thing. And I'm like, no one's shooting at me. This is pretty easy. It's radio. So I've been afforded a whole new life, but I certainly wouldn't be here without the help of a lot of people.
- [33:59]
Abby Ellsworth
Well, that's great. I'm glad to hear you're Remarried. I've heard you refer to your wife on your show, so I know I.
- [34:04]
John J. Wiley
Call her the Boss. Yes. In radio and also in the syndicated show, My wife Stephanie the Boss.
- [34:14]
Abby Ellsworth
And I know you were in radio. I mean, you were in music radio for Ron.
- [34:18]
John J. Wiley
Yeah, I've been doing full time FM music radio for about 18 years. Currently do show middays in the Florida Keys at one of our radio stations. And my music name in the radio world is Ripley. A boss gave me that name a long time ago and it unfortunately stuck. So I didn't like it to begin with. I'm like, ripley, you know that's my name. He's like, yeah. I was like, how about this? How about that? He's like, no, you're Ripley. And I'm like, okay, well, that label kind of stuck. And that's why I've been on air for about 11 years, 12 years now. Is Ripley. Okay.
- [34:54]
Abby Ellsworth
And then how did you, how, where did, how did you get into law Enforcement Today? Radio show podcast. Tell me all about.
- [35:01]
John J. Wiley
What I did was in 2017 I wanted to do a podcast. I wanted to take what I knew from the radio world, combine it with the human experience of law enforcement world. And I got a hold of Robert Greenberg from Law Enforcement Today. He's an active duty police captain and he had a really large Facebook page at time. I said, I want to do a podcast from law enforcement officers, their spouses, their families. And I was very specific about what I want to do. Overcoming trauma, things of that nature. And he's like, let's make this happen. In March 2017, we launched it and within three months of posting organically on his Facebook page, a radio station upstate New York heard it said, can you create a version of. And the episode they listened to was a young female, now retired officer named Stacy West. And Stacy was shot multiple times in Auburndale, Florida on a domestic call with an SKS rifle and almost killed her. And they had the 911 dispatcher audio. And when I think of it now, it still gives me chills. She survived barely. But her episode, one of our first, was so profound, they're like, we got to create a radio version. Can you do it? We did. Long story short, I syndicated self syndicated. First 13 stations got a syndicator. Now we're syndicated by a company called Talk Media Network. We broadcast once a week on 81 stations across the United States to about 24 million combined population. Then it goes on as a podcast. And when it went to radio we had expand. So we do I say crime and Trauma stories. We have law enforcement officers talking about investigations. I just did an episode today with a crime scene investigator from Orange County, Florida involved in a Kaylee Anthony case and also the Pulse nightclub and talking about what they do, how they do things, the investigation discovery aspect of it. Then we have victims of crime, military, other first responders, spouses or survivors talking about trauma they've been through and how it impacted them and what they did to build their lives afterwards. And that's about nine. The trauma ones are about 60% of all of our guests.
- [37:06]
Abby Ellsworth
It's a great podcast. I learn a lot. The stories are really moving.
- [37:10]
John J. Wiley
Well, thank you. I appreciate it.
- [37:11]
Abby Ellsworth
You have your finger on the pulse of what's going on around the country because you're talking to everyone from all over many different departments. And what are you seeing as the issues most affecting law enforcement? You know, I'm going to go out there and say defunding the national negative narrative, the sweeping police reform legislations restricting use of force. Tell me what you're saying.
- [37:42]
John J. Wiley
When I talk to people, one of the things that's very obvious, there's an old saying, I can't remember what movie it was from, but the greatest trick ever played was a devil convincing the world he didn't exist until this is where I had my spin. Until the news media and primarily social media, Hollywood convinced people that Ms. 13 criminal motorcycle gangs, other gangs, violent street criminals, career criminals are less of a threat than their police. That's the real problem. Policing now is dangerous. It's always been a dangerous occupation. A lot of lot more people are maimed and injured than killed. Everybody winds up paying a price. Their family members as well. They're not getting support from city hall and I use city hall as a short term their county government, state government, politicians, whoever might be, because they the news media is running a narrative that goes contrary to this. So it's become like the old movie, the tail wagging the dog. The news media says it's so, therefore it is so people believe it. And then the politicians turn around and attack their own people that they hired and trained and gave the equipment to and told them to do a job. We had court cases like Torrington, Connecticut that you have to get involved. If you believe the domestic violence, someone's going to be harmed. And when officers do, they're getting arrested, arrested for apprehending a physical combatant because they don't like the way it looks.
- [39:12]
Abby Ellsworth
Right. So what I see is they put videos out of these incidents and then the public they Monday morning Quarterback and they, having never been in law enforcement, say all the things that the officers should have done differently. No one seems to notice that lack of compliance is what an officer is responding to. Now, we've all seen exceptions to that. It just would be helpful to remember that most often an officer is responding to the actions of the person they have contacted. So often the assumption is that the incident occurred because of the person's race. And I'm not saying that doesn't happen. But if we're going to talk about race, let's also talk about the whole story.
- [39:58]
John J. Wiley
It's the actions, the facts are. The race of the people involved is a fact. It's not often a factor. And a lot of people don't know what I'm talking about. Say it. For example, if you have a fatal accident, car accident, the, the conditions outside, was it raining, was the road wet? Those are facts and they are oftentimes factors in the accident. What caused the accident, what caused the fatality. When you have a situation where it's a use of force and officer has to use force against someone, the facts may be that they are of a different race, but it's quite often not a factor. And here's a perfect example. The four people that shot at me, all of them were career criminals, had been convicted multiple times. They didn't shoot at me because I was a white guy, they shot at me because I was a police officer and they didn't want to be apprehended. However, if I turn around and shoot at them, it's automatically race based.
- [40:53]
Abby Ellsworth
So has it always been that way or is it just that way?
- [40:55]
John J. Wiley
It was that way in the 1980s. I don't see anything different. What I see different is a lack of backbone by our so called leaders, our elected politicians. They have become so wishy washy. They're afraid of anything that has optics, that don't look good. And granted the news media, their job is to get the most juicy morsel so they can get the most viewers. Consumers are podcasts, so they get or their episode so they get more advertising dollars. I get it. But when the politicians are and say, oh, we don't like the way this looks so we're going to arrest you, we're going to have you indicted. By the way, we had an old saying, I can get a ham sandwich indicted, you can indict the Pope. That doesn't mean that anything will happen on trial, but we'll get him indicted because that's a coward's way out. I don't Want to take action. So I'll get the officers indicted and we say we did our job and they, by the way, they quit.
- [41:46]
Abby Ellsworth
We're talking about deadly use of force and how, for example, in instance, you were describing, someone is running away, they're shooting at you under their arm, or they're a fleeing felon, you are allowed to shoot them in the back. But if you see that story in the media, that is not what will be reported.
- [42:06]
John J. Wiley
No, it won't be reported that way. And ultimately, in my case, I can only speak for what I went through in that situation. I knew immediately that the threat to me was over. I didn't know why and I couldn't explain why at the time. I just knew it. So therefore my response to that was appropriate. Had I thought the guy was still a threat to me, still firing, it probably would have ended a totally different way. And I had to be okay with that. Not everybody else is going to like it and not everybody's going to appreciate it. And they might say, well, he was just a marijuana dealer. Well, he's just a marijuana dealer that was shooting at me at the time.
- [42:40]
Abby Ellsworth
The other things, when you talk about city hall in the general sense, you know, with this defunding, it's demoralizing. The first thing that gets cut is training.
- [42:53]
John J. Wiley
Right?
- [42:54]
Abby Ellsworth
Training is. Training is the thing that will keep the incidents that they want to prevent from happening. And there are these feel good measures, like no bail. I can see what their goal is, but the method needs refining. They're tying the hands of law enforcement.
- [43:14]
John J. Wiley
Yes, they are. Back then, and I'll give you a short story back. I think it was 1984. I was a young patrolman. I was walking down the street, I parked my patrol car and got out. We're doing what we call community policing nowadays. It was a thing back in the day. We didn't have that term. We also didn't have the term de escalation. It's something we did every day. And I was walking into this corner store, and as I opened the door, a guy who I had arrested many times before for drugs said, officer Wiley, the guy walking down the street, just packed, just came out of the store. He's got a yellow shopping bag. In that bag is a loaded.357 Magnum revolver, and he's here to shoot somebody. I turn around, I see the guy, and I put his description out. And my side partner is coming down the street. And we get him up against the car. And as he throws the bag on the hood of the car. We hear a heavy metallic sound. So automatically he reaches into the bag or tries to reach him back. We grab him, we cuff him. Turns out it's a loaded.357 Magnum revolver. His name was Flint Gregory Hunt. And the reason this is important, he was supposed to be doing a year. He was convicted for that. Several months later, he was seen leaving traffic court in a stolen car by an officer named Vincent Adolfo. Vincent pursued him, chased him, bailed out. Flint Gregory Hunt ran into an alley called Iron Alley. Vinnie chased him into it. He pulled out a gun. He got up against the wall, then he pulled out a gun, knocked Officer Adolfo back, shot him in the chest. Remember I told you we only had front panel vests at the time. When Vinnie fell on the ground, he landed on his chest. He opened up on Vinnie and shot him back multiple times and killed him. Flint Gregory Hunt was the second to last man executed in the state of Maryland for that crime. If he had been in jail like he should have been, Vincent Adolfo would be a grandfather right now, more than likely. This kind of stuff has been happening forever. We just use different terminology. And the people who pay price are not the people in gated communities with walls. It's the people in poor, crime ridden neighborhoods that pay the price.
- [45:24]
Abby Ellsworth
Right? I. I guess. And no one sees it that way.
- [45:27]
John J. Wiley
No, it's hindsight's 20 20, but everybody's like, hey, let's do bail reform. It sounds good, it feels good. Let's do defunding the police. Guess who's depending on the police the most? It's not the people in the wealthy neighborhoods. It's not them. Where I worked, Abby, people couldn't have their kids out playing in the yard after 4 o' clock in the afternoon because of the gunfire. They would bring people and put them in their bathtub to try to protect themselves from gunfire. They couldn't be on the front porch of their house that they rented for years because of gunfire and drug gangs. And no one, not the politicians, not the activists, not community leaders, none of them were there when we had young men shot and killed and taking their last breaths. And people acting like it's Saturday night entertainment for free. None of them were there. But they all talk a game and they talk a big game. And they make these wide spread actions based off the actions of a few people that affect everybody. And it's horrible.
- [46:24]
Abby Ellsworth
Why is it so violent there?
- [46:28]
John J. Wiley
Because you have cowards as politicians, cowardly leaders. In Baltimore, when I was policing there, I think the population was 880,000. We averaged about 300 murders a year last time I checked. I believe their population is about 660,000. They average about 300 murders a year. I know people that have had multiple children killed. And the tax base dies. It leaves. As soon as people can afford to leave, they leave. The education's horrible. Everything's horrible. And yet we have government agencies and politicians who would throw millions of dollars in grand schemes. You know, the ribbon cunning. We're going to do this. Revitalization will do that. And 20 years later, nothing's changed, nothing's improved for anybody. But these politicians and her cronies made more money. You tell me.
- [47:15]
Abby Ellsworth
I don't know how anyone can be a police officer there.
- [47:18]
John J. Wiley
I really don't know. They say they have a shortage of about 500 officers. Last I heard. So many agencies across the United States. I talked to a sheriff in a great part of Maryland. He said it cost him, I think, $160,000 to recruit and train one deputy to get on the street for the amount of people that don't make it.
- [47:39]
Abby Ellsworth
Yep. Right. And some of these cities are walking back on the defunding message, wanting to add more officers, which is what they should do. But what they don't understand is what you just said. It takes time to test and to train before an officer can hit the streets. So in addition to dealing with defunding, there seems to be a focus on limiting the ability to use force. So what you said earlier is you have to meet the threat with appropriate force. So lethal force must be met with lethal force.
- [48:15]
John J. Wiley
Yeah, look, we didn't have tasers back in the day. We had nightsticks. What we called S bantunes is the way you use them. We had mace, which we jokingly said only worked on police and innocent bystanders. It never did anything to violent criminals. We had slapjacks. We had those sorts of things. And yeah, I stopped carrying slapjacks and all that because it was something else I had to defend against. It could be used against me. The reality is if someone. I had to learn this lesson the hard way. As a rookie cop, when people told me they're going to punch me and they made their hand in the fist, I used to wait for them to swing and I got chewed out by senior officers because I was getting hurt. And they said if someone tells you they're going to hit you and their body language tells you they're going to hit you, believe them. Do not wait. If someone pulls out a knife or gun and says I'm going to kill you. What else does someone need when they say I'm in fear for my life or I'm in fear for life for someone else. And yet people who will pass judgment from the safety of their office behind their keyboard months and months down the road and say, well, they could have done this. Yeah, they could have done a million things differently if they had the fortune of high, of perfect vision beforehand or if they were God or Superman. These are human beings, they're trying to do a really tough job. And when they do horrible things, they should be treated accordingly and arrested if need be. When they don't, they should be supported and taken care of.
- [49:47]
Abby Ellsworth
Right. Well, and part of what I see happen is they release video because they want to be transparent. But there's no, and maybe this is changing, but there's no statement from the command staff or there's no explanation of why the officers acted the way they did. And so they're immediately viewed as having done this incorrectly.
- [50:12]
John J. Wiley
Yeah, they act like they're covering something up. First of all, when you have any kind of use of force, it's a criminal investigation, right? Whether it's justified or not, that's to be terminated down the road. If you have a worst case scenario where an officer shoots someone, it's a criminal investigation. If the person dies, it's a murder investigation. Then there's a process they go through. The police departments are not in position where they can start giving out information beforehand because it can discredit the investigation, it can discredit trial. Here's some great examples with investigations involving serial killers. I believe it was Richard Ramirez in California where then I think was Dianne Feinstein, the mayor of San Francisco put out that he's wearing a certain brand of sneakers, only one sold in the United States and California at the time. And as soon as that person heard that news, they changed it. So when police departments start giving out information beforehand, they, they run the risk of that happening. They really can't do that. Secondly, I'm not an expert in body cameras, but that is not a fisheye lens. It doesn't show everything. It just shows what's right in front of the camera. And it may not show the beforehand or the afterhand and it could easily be made to look horrible. All use of force looks bad. None of it looks good ever. What we were trained to do is if you have to use force, number one, never lie about it. Number two, be swift, make it decisive and lock them up the minute handcuffs are on them, it's over. It's better to do that than it is to grapple. Pity pat wrestle people because things get ugly really quick and if you have an officer wrestling with someone, it's going to look even worse. One punch and they're out and they're cuffed. It may be just as brutal, but it's over a lot quicker and there's a lot less questions asked.
- [52:04]
Abby Ellsworth
One of the concerns I have is this restricting use of force may be causing officers to hesitate. There was the recent line of duty death of Chicago police officer Ella French, who was killed during a traffic stop and her partner, Officer Carlos Yanez was very seriously injured. The Chicago Tribune reported that he was shot in the eye, cheek, brain and back. And what caught my attention in the news report is his father has said the hesitation is why she was killed and his son now has life changing injuries. So would you agree that officers are now doubting themselves, making them think twice before they react?
- [52:47]
John J. Wiley
I really don't know how to answer that. We've always had to hesitate before. Do I think it's an issue now? Do I think officers are second guessing themselves? Yes. Would I think there's a case we made where officers are not getting involved in on view things? Absolutely. In her case, I do not know. I was not there. And. And no offense to you or anyone else, the news media puts out facts in a way that framed the way they wanted to be put out there. So I know, I can't judge it. I know Ella French was killed. I know her partner was severely injured. I just know it's a tragedy what's happened, not just to her, not just to him, but to their families as well. And the officers that were on scene that they work with and the family members of those who were involved in a crime, they're paying a price too. There's no such thing as justice anymore. There's no closure. Everybody loses in a scenario.
- [53:41]
Abby Ellsworth
Well, and based on your story that you've shared today and what you went through, it's possible he will experience something similar. I see this now in a whole new light. Right.
- [53:52]
John J. Wiley
And I know in the police department in Chicago and in very areas, there are commanders, there are bosses, there are sergeants, there's lieutenants, there's police officers that will do anything to help them. That's in their nature. That's part of what we do. The problem is when it gets out of the hands of the police department and in the hands of City hall. Again, I'm paraphrasing City hall, the bean counters, the accountants, the workers compensation insurance people. Don't even get me started on them, how horrible they are. That's what Carlos and his family have to look forward to.
- [54:28]
Abby Ellsworth
Well, I do know that in one of your podcasts you said that you have hope or that you advise law enforcement not to be discouraged. So to end on a positive note, what is your message to those listening to you, those you interview?
- [54:46]
John J. Wiley
You know, it's important. There's reason why we got into this job. And for most of us, we go in because it's a vocation, it's a calling. We want to serve, we want to help people. Right now, there's someone that is praying that an officer or someone will come help them be that person. Be proud of what you do. Have honesty, have integrity. But do not lose hope. It's an admirable profession and we need admirable people doing this job. People's lives depend on it. So please be that force for good.
- [55:15]
Abby Ellsworth
I agree. And I think again, thank you for having served, thank you for continuing to support law enforcement and thank you for being on the podcast.
- [55:24]
John J. Wiley
Abby, thank you so much. It's a pleasure. I look forward to working with you again in the future. The Law Enforcement Radio show is a nationally syndicated radio show broadcast on numerous stations once a week and growing. If you enjoyed the podcast version of the show, please do me a big favor. Tell a friend I'll be back in just a couple days with a brand new episode of the Law Enforcement Radio show and podcast. Until then, this is John J. Wiley. See ya.
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