← Law Enforcement Talk: True Crime and Trauma Stories
Law Enforcement Talk: True Crime and Trauma Stories
Violent Crime In The USA From A Cop
00:53:28
Violent Crime In The USA From A Cop, Gun Control And More, Special Episode. In a gripping and deeply personal interview, John J. Wiley opens up about the violent encounter that forever changed his life and ultimately ended his career as a Baltimore police officer. Appearing as a guest on the Law Matters 1030 Radio Show and Podcast on KVOI AM Radio, Wiley was interviewed by host Sherry Harrison in a special episode that dives into the harsh realities of policing, survival, and the long-lasting effects of violence in the line of duty.
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- [00:01]
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- [01:00]
John J. Wiley
Inc. A fight over control of a police officer's gun and shots fired. This is a very special episode. In this episode, the guest is me. In particular, my appearance as a guest on the Law Matters radio show broadcast on KVOI AM Radio in Tucson, Arizona. Law Matters host Sherri Harrison interviews me. We talk about the violent incident that ended my police career, gun control and much more. Welcome to the Law Enforcement Talk Radio Show. In the Law Enforcement Talk Radio show, we are joined by special guests talking about their experiences, their realities of investigating crimes, plus those who have experienced horrendous trauma. Police, first responders, military and victims of crime share their stories. Hi, I'm John J. Wiley. In addition to being a broadcaster, I'm also retired police sergeant. Be sure to check out our website, letradio.com and also like us on Facebook, search for the Law Enforcement Talk Radio Show.
- [02:05]
Sherry Harrison
I want to make an announcement. We're again mourning the loss of a good guy, one of our amazing four star agents. Border Patrol supervisor agent Daniel Cox, a 23, 24 year devoted servant to his country, was killed this week. This is a senseless tragedy and it just breaks my heart. But on behalf of Lawmatters and we offer our prayers, our sympathy to his family and his work family and I'll never get used to making these announcements. And our guest today is Jay Wylie from law enforcement out of Florida. And Jay, thank you for joining us.
- [02:47]
Jay Wiley
Pleasure to be here with you. Sherry. Thanks for having me on your show. It's very much appreciated and you're right, it's. It's horrible when this news happens and it never gets easier and it brings up memories of so many people that have died in line of duty and their service or sacrifice is always appreciated by me.
- [03:05]
Sherry Harrison
Oh, absolutely. I want to, I want to talk to you about everything, but before we get started, tell our listeners about you. What's your history, your work history, and I know you do a show in Florida. Tell us why you do the show.
- [03:20]
Jay Wiley
Well, first, I'm a retired Baltimore City police sergeant. I got hurt and retired young in what the news media loves to call the unarmed man incident, who tried to shoot me with my service weapon while still my hand. Fortunately, he survived. I survived. I thought I sprained my wrist. And after multiple surgeries, a couple steel plates and total fusion, my right hand and wrist, I was retired at the age of 33. About eight years later, I began pursuing a career in broadcasting in the early days of. We have visited podcasting and fell in love with it. Went to a station where I got to buy my time and did a show, then went to broadcasting school at night. And I've been in full time radio, FM, music, DJ. And in 2017 I launched a podcast. We got approached by radio stations act and we converted to radio show we did. It's now syndicated, broadcast once a week and then it goes online as a podcast each episode. It's a top podcast worldwide. I love what I do and I love providing a platform for not just law enforcement officers to tell their stories, but getting a glimpse behind the badge, but also victims of crime, military, other first responders, other law enforcement officers, their family members, their survivors, talking about trauma they went through, how it impacted their lives and what they did about the new lives afterwards. And most of them, their trauma has been impacted and caused by violent crime. And there's some very inspiring stories.
- [04:50]
Sherry Harrison
Yes, that's so true. And I don't think people realize they'll read a headline and oh, so and so was killed. The ripple effect is tremendous. And I don't think anybody out here where I, you know, my friends, my circle of influence, I don't think anybody's not experienced something like this. And it's just, what do you do? How do you handle that every day? I know you, you cover the whole nation when there's a tragedy. How do you handle that every day?
- [05:21]
Jay Wiley
Well, first of all, I tell people that, you know, I'm just a street cop. I don't. I'm not a psychiatrist, I'm not a psychologist. I'm not A therapist. I just try to stay in my lane and tell people when in the very little the show is about me and what I've been through. But when I do, when it adds to conversation, I tell people what I went through, how it impacted me and the choices I had to make to find a way to build a better life in spite of what happened. You know, these things happen to everybody. Like you said, they happen to everyone. And the ripple effect on community is tremendous. But we're given a choice. We can't undo the past. What we can do is say, okay, how can I change the future for me, for my family, my loved ones and then hopefully for my community and make a positive impact. That's what I try to focus on now.
- [06:10]
Sherry Harrison
And I don't think people realize when you're in a situation like that, you have a nanosecond to make a decision. And there are so many Monday night quarterbacks, you know, saying, oh, I would do this or I would do that. You don't know what you're going to do until you're in the situation.
- [06:28]
Jay Wiley
And I'm very, I'm very rude about it. I tell people you don't know, you weren't there. Say that easily from where you're at the safety of your keyboard where there's no threat or the biggest threat is a rusty paperclip, it's easier said than done.
- [06:43]
Sherry Harrison
Oh, absolutely. So how do you feel about the attitude towards law enforcement? And this is like even two years ago, everything has changed.
- [06:53]
Jay Wiley
Well, first, you know, I would love to tell you that I think it's new, it's dramatic, it's getting a lot of coverage. We have, you know, from my early days in policing, we didn't have 24 hour, seven day a week cable television news channel and we didn't have social media was being flooding these stories. But there was very much a negative anti police climate going on. Left over from the 70s from the Vietnam War era. People need to look at their history and see how many people, how many police officers have been killed and mutilated by murderers, by criminals, by terrorists in the 60s and 70s. The number is staggering. So we what? It's not new. What is new is that we're constantly being bombarded with it. We don't hear all the great things that the cops do. We don't hear all the great things they do daily. We don't hear about all the positive interactions they have in community under horrible situations. All we hear is negative, negative, negative. And here's an example. I Come up with. You can have a professional athlete decides to take a knee during the national anthem. They get front page publicity and sponsorship, but you have someone who feeds thousands of people every day and no one knows about them.
- [08:09]
Sherry Harrison
Right?
- [08:10]
Jay Wiley
No one. Right.
- [08:12]
Sherry Harrison
It's so true. Everybody wants to focus on the wrong things is my opinion. Yeah. That's why we do the show, because we want people to know we've got some amazing law enforcement personnel out there and we need to support them. Their job is dangerous and military. I can tell you, I'm honorary commander at Davis Month, and one of my people stopped at the grocery store to pick up some diapers on his way home and some lady came up and spit on him because of his uniform. And he has to not engage because he's in his uniform. You cannot engage. You know, you don't want to cause a scene. This is unacceptable. And this happened just a few months back. This is unacceptable. People need to be more respectful of law enforcement, of the uniform. I just don't know what's in people's heads anymore.
- [09:09]
Jay Wiley
It's become fashionable to do that. People think they're making a statement and they're raising awareness. You know, I'm a product of the Vietnam War era. I grew up in Norfolk, Virginia, and a lot of the kids I went to school with, their fathers were POWs or missing in action. And they spent seven, eight years in these facilities and they came home and I remember how they were treated when they came home. And the same treatment is happening with our law enforcement officers today and to some respect, other first responders and military as well.
- [09:40]
Sherry Harrison
Yeah, absolutely. And I just don't get it. I don't understand. Were they raised by wolves? It just doesn't make sense to me. What, what do you think is going to happen with this case up in Minnesota? Is he going to get a retrial?
- [09:56]
Jay Wiley
You know, that's a decision that the legal experts have to make. You know, I was always taught early on that as a police officer, when you want to have an arrest someone, you build the best case. You have what's available at the time with the evidence, and there's no accounting for what juries do. There's really no. There's so many intricacies that are created by the legal system that you don't have a lot of impact on it. All you can do is the best job you can. Will he get a retrial? I don't know. And you know, I've learned this a long time ago. Never bet on what a judge or jury is going to do ever, ever, ever. It could be a lock, solid case and next, you know, they're not guilty.
- [10:37]
Sherry Harrison
Yeah, that's so true. I've, I've seen a lot of cases like that. I just feel that, you know, I didn't have the time to sit and watch the whole trial, but I was home when they did part of the closing arguments. And that was the first time I saw the video of what led up to the, the person being on the, on the ground. And I thought, why, why didn't we see that part all these weeks before? Instead of just watching, you know, somebody kneeling on somebody, I. It put a whole different perspective on the situation for me. But I'm just one person and I'm not on the jury.
- [11:19]
Jay Wiley
We had a philosophy in Baltimore and it still holds true, is, and this referred to the newspaper, the Baltimore sun in particular. If it bleeds, it leaves. And the more gore, the more shock that they can deliver. The more eyeballs that get on their product, the more advertisers see, the more revenue they can generate. It's a revenue thing. And, you know, you and I are both in radio and we're about trying to get more listeners. We want to be honest and have authentic product and be authentic people and do we stand by and stand for. But if you can't get an audience, it doesn't really matter. So when these other people, news media, they're going to put out what's going to attract a lot of attention. And a shock factor is what gets everything out there without saying whether I believe or agree, whether he should have been arrested or not. I am not shocked ever that any media outlet puts out a video that is edited, that is shortened and deliberately manufactured and presented a way that creates most shock factor, gets most eyeballs on their product, period.
- [12:28]
Sherry Harrison
And starts a conversation. And not necessarily the right one.
- [12:33]
Jay Wiley
It doesn't really matter if it's the right one or even a fair one or just one. It's about making money. It's always with the news media people. We've had court case after court case. They're not required to tell us facts or the truth. Their job is to generate revenue for their shareholders and their advertisers. That's their job.
- [12:52]
Sherry Harrison
Even if they're spewing untruths, unfortunately. And they do. Yeah, they do do that. So during your career, how did people treat you?
- [13:08]
John J. Wiley
Of all the radio stations in the United States, there are no other shows like the law enforcement talk radio show and on Facebook, there's only one Official page. Do a search on Facebook for the law enforcement talk radio show. And be sure to like the law enforcement talk radio show Facebook page.
- [13:26]
Carvana Customer
Hey, sweetie. Your mother showed me this Carvana thing for selling the car. I'm gonna give it a try. Wish me luck. Me again. I put in the license plate. It gave me an offer.
- [13:35]
Jay Wiley
Unbelievable.
- [13:37]
Carvana Customer
Okay, I accepted the offer. They're picking it up Tuesday from the driveway. I haven't even left my chair. It's done. The car is gone. I'm holding a check anyway. Carvana, give it a whirl. Love ya.
- [13:49]
Carvana / Grainger Advertiser
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- [14:26]
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- [15:01]
Sherry Harrison
I know it was decades earlier, but how did people treat you? Did you get the respect of, like, school kids? This is something I'm finding really remarkable.
- [15:12]
Jay Wiley
The short answer is no. It depends on the individual and the situation. I'll very quickly tell people in my career, I was in four shootings in a little less than 11 years. Like 10 years and change. And the first two, I never fired a shot back because immediately I knew the threat was over. The second two were dramatically different. Everybody survived. And not one of those people, not one of them shot at me because I was a white officer. They all shot at me because they're trying to avoid apprehension. However, if I shoot back, it's automatically about race, of course. And there are conclusions made based on the way people look and not based on the facts. So it's incredibly violent situation. A lot of violence, most of it was directed towards family members and victims of crimes in our community that we served. And it's horrifying to see.
- [16:07]
Sherry Harrison
Yeah. And that's something we're experiencing here in Arizona. We have homicides are up just in Tucson and Pima County. Homicides are up like three times, four times more what they were over a year ago. And I'm just like, what's the matter with people? What's this world coming to? Everybody's out buying guns and shooting people up because they're angry. And then the news says, well they had a mental problem. Well no kidding.
- [16:36]
Jay Wiley
Join a club. Who doesn't have a mental problem? Who doesn't have an anger issue. I laugh when people tell me, you don't understand. I'm angry. Oh yeah. Like I haven't been angry in my life. I don't want to come out for a day. I'm talking about for years.
- [16:49]
Sherry Harrison
Oh yeah. When I get angry I don't go breaking into department stores, looting them until they're empty and then torching them. That's not, you know, how you handle the situation. And John is sitting in the control room going, you don't? Why not? Yeah, no, it's just a whole different ball game. And honestly there's a lot of politicians out there that I, some of them I respect, some I don't. But I don't think when John Lewis was talking to people just before he passed, said he meant to do things like what's going on now. It's just, it's senseless. So what do you think about the gun situation? What do you think they're going to do with it?
- [17:33]
Jay Wiley
Well, again it's. The thing about politics is you have to create an environment where I'll put it this way, the best movies are the ones about the boogeyman. So they create someone who is a threat, that or a something that is a threat and they are the solution for the threat. So guns, they keep telling you, are the problem. It's not guns that are problem. They want more gun control. How about some criminal control? How about we take people that have 10, 15 prior arrests, have been convicted multiple times for violent crimes and put them in jail and leave them there. Population, these guns that are being used in crimes, the vast majority are not being committed by law abiding citizens or even legally purchased guns. They're by guns that are stolen and robberies, burglaries or whatever else it's done by criminals. Let's lock them Up.
- [18:30]
Sherry Harrison
Why do you think they're not doing that? I've said it before, you know, let's do something about this. These people shouldn't have these guns. Why are they selling guns to people who have mental problems?
- [18:42]
Jay Wiley
I don't know that they are. You know, even in the state I'm in, in Florida, last time I bought a gun and I'm not, I'm not a gun guy, to be honest with you, I never had a gun in my life until I became a cop. So I have a coup. But even being a retired police, there's a seven day wait, seven to 10 days to be able to purchase a handgun. And you got to go through the requirements. Everybody else does. I don't know where they come up with this stuff from, but part of it is if someone has a mental problem, the HIPAA laws do not allow some of that information to be released. How are they going to get access to it, number one? Number two, if the person filling out the paperwork to buy this rifle or this gun doesn't let out, they've been treated for schizophrenia voluntarily, how are they going to find out?
- [19:33]
Sherry Harrison
Right. Oh, by the way, I'm a sociopath. You know, they're not going to say that.
- [19:37]
Jay Wiley
Those people don't exactly tell people, hey, yeah, by the way, I'm a sociopath. I hear voices like the Son of Sam that tell me I want to kill people. They don't tell you that.
- [19:47]
Sherry Harrison
True, that. But I still think that, you know, if. And they'll say, oh, it was spare the moment, somebody just, you know, got angry and spur of the moment, they, they killed somebody. If you have to wait 7 days, 10 days to get a permit and this is what you're doing to, you know, shoot somebody with this gun that you're buying, that's premeditated murder. That's not. Oh, spare the moment.
- [20:12]
Jay Wiley
So, and the big thing is that we're taught that when it comes to violent crime, you got to have the means, the motive and the opportunity to commit that crime. So the opportunity is, okay, there's no cops around, so I'm going to go kill Joe. Blow the motive. I'm killing him because he was messing around with my wife or whatever might be, or he owes me money. The means is the least important. I use a gun, a knife, a car, a bomb, whatever might be. People focus on the means all the time instead of the opportunity and the motive. You can't put more emphasis on one saying the gun is the issue. Look at the United Kingdom. Knife crimes are skyrocketing gun crime is very, very low here United States. Does it really matter if a person was shot, stabbed, bludgeoned with a baseball bat or whatever? If they're killed, they're killed.
- [21:06]
Sherry Harrison
Yeah. That is dead. You're not coming back.
- [21:09]
Jay Wiley
No.
- [21:09]
Sherry Harrison
You know, and they're poisoning people. I was watching a show the other day, and so, yeah, this is your poison of choice. And I'm like, wait a minute, what? But, yeah, people will find a way. If they are, they're set on doing something, they will find the way. And you're right, they'll go out and buy illegal guns. They're everywhere. And, yeah, you don't need a permit for that. I don't know. I don't know how they could even begin to control anything like that.
- [21:39]
Jay Wiley
Well, a lot of these people. I'll go back to what I said earlier. A lot of these people that commit these violent crimes in their. You know, there's. In the prison population, in my experience, there's a percentage of people that have one bad moment in their life. There was another large percentage of people that wasn't for drugs or alcohol. They'd never do the things they did and wound up in prison. They're so responsible for what they did. Then you have the career criminals. The career criminals that go out and purchase these guns illegally. It's not the first time they've done this. Many of them have been arrested multiple times. And given. I'll give you the case. In Texas, a guy is a convicted felon and he's out on parole. He's on parole and he's arrested for murder. And what's the judge do? Gives him bond and lets him walk. He's a parolee.
- [22:28]
Sherry Harrison
Yeah.
- [22:28]
Jay Wiley
He's already proven he can't be trusted in society, and he did it again. And yet we let him back down the streets. We can harm more people. That doesn't make sense. Logically.
- [22:38]
Sherry Harrison
That happened in New York. The. That man that was beating up on the little Asian lady. He was paroled and he was a murderer, and they let him go.
- [22:54]
John J. Wiley
One of the questions I get all the time is how can I show my support for law enforcement? We're all busy. We've got busy lives. But there's something oh so simple you can do with our Facebook page. Search for law enforcement talk radio show Facebook page. And when you see a post you agree with, that resonates with you. Share it, especially episodes of the podcast. To do all that, just search for us on Facebook, look for law enforcement talk radio show, and be sure to click.
- [23:23]
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- [23:54]
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- [24:38]
Sherry Harrison
So we've got a call around the line. Charles, what's on your mind?
- [24:44]
Caller Charles
Well, I wanted to bring something up in terms of guns and I'm sorry, your guest name again is, please, Mr.
- [24:50]
Sherry Harrison
Wiley, is it Jay Wiley?
- [24:53]
Caller Charles
Jay Wiley. Mr. Wiley, thank you for your reasonable attitude. And you're trying to broaden the scope and talking about dealing with violence, not just with the method of violence. I think it's a message that doesn't get out there often enough. It gets overridden by emotion, especially in media. But Sherry, just because a person has mental problems does not disqualify them from gun ownership, only if they've been institutionalized against their will. And those records are available, even hipaa, notwithstanding those records, especially if it's done by a court, those records are public. And so it is possible, if we fix the system and require reporting of that, to get people who are mentally disabled from owning a gun, to make it so they can't buy one from a dealer. But just because they have schizophrenia alone, unless they've been institutionalized for it, doesn't prohibit them from owning a gun. And here's why. What you're doing basically is you're saying, if you're saying, well, if you've got schizophrenia, you can't defend yourself, what you're then doing is you're discriminating against the handicapped. Mr. Wiley, I'd love Your comment on
- [26:08]
Jay Wiley
that, I agree with you 185%. And the other thing that a lot of people don't realize, I tell people all the time, don't answer yes to people's preconceived stereotypes. Schizophrenia, everybody's got schizophrenia isn't a threat. Everybody's got some sort of mental illness is not a threat and not always violent. And even people who are narcissists and sociopaths, they're not always violent. Some of them are elected politicians and are very good at what they do because of that, that skill set. And some of them are, you know, in the legal profession. So if someone has a great example is post traumatic stress. Everybody that has PTSD or injury, I prefer to. It is not a threat of violence, people. But Hollywood puts out that image and everyone believes that's the case and that's what the media runs with. So you could have all these people that have mental illnesses and have weapons and they're no threat to anybody and they're your next door neighbor and they've never been a threat to anybody. And they don't, they don't go out of the way to make life miserable for anyone. They just want to have a happy life.
- [27:17]
Sherry Harrison
That's true.
- [27:18]
Caller Charles
That's never right to defend themselves, especially if they're disabled. I teach the concealed weapons permit class and I've been doing that for 27 years and I have certified in my time three blind people. And when people who are anti freedom about guns hear that, they go nuts. Why would you want a blind person
- [27:39]
Jay Wiley
to have a gun?
- [27:41]
Sherry Harrison
The same reason I want them to have a car.
- [27:45]
Caller Charles
No. Maybe. But if you listen to it doesn't mean they can't own the car, it means that they can't drive it. But the point is a blind person is at a greater risk of attack than a person with sight. So what you're saying is because the person has a disability, they can't defend themselves. That is open and notorious discrimination. Now you change the ammunition, the person shoots so it won't go as far. Okay, you put ammo in their gun. That has less likelihood of injuring innocent people. But if a person attacks a blind person, they're going to be at hand distance. Why wouldn't you use a gun? And some people just don't think that way. They think that somehow because a person's blind that they have a handicap, that you should discriminate against them. And that's horrible.
- [28:32]
Jay Wiley
That's.
- [28:32]
Caller Charles
We have laws against discrimination.
- [28:35]
Sherry Harrison
That's true. And I think when people Apply for certain types of weapons and certain types of ammo. They should be able to sign something that says I give up my HIPAA rights. You can find out that I'm a normal person. I've never been, you know, put in the funny farm or anything. And I'm not distressed. I'm not, I'm not happy.
- [28:57]
Caller Charles
You cannot. There's a principle in law that you cannot force someone to give up a right to gain another one. Sure, you shouldn't. And number one, and also remember in Arizona there is no licensing that's required. There's, it's against the law in Arizona
- [29:11]
Jay Wiley
to force a person to register a gun.
- [29:13]
Caller Charles
Except a machine gun or a silencer or short barrel rifle or short barreled shotgun. But other than that, and that's a national registration, not a local one, is against the law in Arizona to force a person to register a gun. And that's good. The government has no business knowing what, what, what non criminal citizens own.
- [29:32]
Jay Wiley
None.
- [29:34]
Sherry Harrison
Okay.
- [29:35]
Caller Charles
Hey, I'd love to hear your answer on the air.
- [29:37]
Jay Wiley
Thank you. He's preaching to the choir if you ask me because I agree with him 100%. You know, and again, every, every state's different. But I have a Rottweiler. We've had Rottweiler dogs for 20 years. 20. My wife and I were 25 years. The state will issue licensing and they want to know what breed you have so they can be classified as either an aggressive dog or a non aggressive dog based on their breed. I don't believe they have a right to know what kind of three family member I have. I don't believe the government has a right to know and demand how many Glocks I have or what 12 gauge shotgun I own. That's really none other business because I don't walk around and I don't create problems for people. I've never been arrested nor will I ever plan on getting arrested. But all these laws they pass, guess who they target? They target people. They want to create a whole new class of felons, for lack of better words, that have never committed a crime in their lives. Because all of a sudden some legislation has been passed that says you are now criminal. Meanwhile, they ignore the violent criminals that walk the streets and they go so far as to put them right back out there.
- [30:48]
Sherry Harrison
Yeah. And they have. And they, they don't reform them. They're in prison. So they're out there doing what they did when they originally went to prison. They're just better at it now. So we're going to take Quick break, Jay. Stay with us. Please.
- [31:08]
John J. Wiley
Get access to free podcast versions of the show and more on Facebook. Do a search for the Law Enforcement Talk rated show and be sure to
- [31:17]
Carvana / Grainger Advertiser
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- [31:52]
Sherry Harrison
Thanks for staying with us. Our guest today is Jay Wiley from Law enforcement out of Florida. Are you in Florida or are you in Baltimore?
- [32:02]
Jay Wiley
I'm in Palm Beach County, Florida.
- [32:05]
Sherry Harrison
Oh, so it's pretty nice down there.
- [32:08]
Jay Wiley
Yes. I had to get away from Baltimore. It's just a tad too much violence for me. I did my time. I want peaceful. Really do.
- [32:16]
Sherry Harrison
Yeah, I hear you. That would be nice. There are certain parts of Tucson I will not go to after dark and it's really too bad. Day times maybe, but definitely not after dark. So tell me about the area that you live in. Does the police department have like an Explorer program where they can engage kids to, you know, start doing the right thing before they start doing the wrong thing?
- [32:44]
Jay Wiley
Well, the biggest agency here in Palm beach county is Palm Beach County Sheriff's Office. And they have a huge area to cover. And then the, the different jurisdictions inside the county have the police departments like West Palm Beach, Palm beach itself, Boynton Beach, Delray, a few other ones. And most of them have an Explorer program or police cadets program. And it's, and all of them have been heavily involved. And this is something that's going on in 1980 in Baltimore. They're heavily involved in community relations and very much thoughtful about and deliberate approach about we want to be part of community, part of the community. And that goes back to the conversation we had earlier where that kind of stuff's not reported. They'd rather use terms like they're an occupying force and all this other nonsense is just not true. But they've been heavily involved in it. And I'm pretty sure PBSO has a very extensive cadets or law enforcement forwards program.
- [33:44]
Sherry Harrison
There was a situation where people are becoming offended because law enforcement looked very military. Like when they come in to do whatever their job is and they were talking about, you know, let's, let's change their uniform, let's kind of dumb it down, I guess. How do you feel about that? I. I'm just appalled that they would think, you know, the bad guys are going to have better equipment than the good guys and, you know, you want to strip them of, of his gear.
- [34:13]
Jay Wiley
Well, by the way, you know, looks matter that as far as people are concerned, it doesn't matter what you do. Again, I'll go back to my prior experience. It doesn't matter what you do. It dep on how you look. So if they think a uniform is going to make a difference, have they looked at the violent crime that goes on our communities? Have they seen what they're up against? You said earlier? Sherry, Good point. There's parts of your, your city, Tucson, which by the way is a lovely city, I was there many years ago, you won't go to at night, but your police have to go there. Your sheriff's department has to go there. Every time there's a call for service, they don't have an option. So if they got soft body armor on and it's exterior body armor, which by the way, saves a lot of people's backs and makes you uncomfortable, get over it. Take a look at what they're going up against.
- [35:00]
Sherry Harrison
Yeah, you're dealing with the kind of people that you need to be prepared. I mean really prepared, and you know, taking their body armor away or, you know, taking their guns away and giving them a baton, you know, this defund the police. I know some areas have done that. Has anything like that happened in Florida?
- [35:21]
Jay Wiley
No, I am in Florida. There may be some pockets of that, particularly further up north around Orlando, but it's not been an issue here. And areas where they have done it, My own department, Baltimore, I think they funded, even though that's the number one or number two most violent city United States, they defunded their police by about 20 million and secretly they turn around and refunded them by an additional 8 million. So they went from 20 million deficit to 28 million additional funds, and they're about 500 officers short. Where we used to go out with in the district with 20 to 25 officers, they're going out with seven. This is one of the deadliest cities in the United States, so you can't make it. We can train these people, hire people, get the best of the best out there. Guess who's going to suffer? It's not going to be the people in the gated communities. I can guarantee you that.
- [36:17]
Sherry Harrison
Yeah, absolutely. And I think this is something that's all across the board in America we are not fully staffed as far as police is concerned. Some areas are at critical levels. And I know Tucson is not staffed the way they would like to be staffed, and they're having a very difficult time finding qualified people, recruits. So where do you go to get these good people? I know there's good people out there to say, hey, come on in, join our department. People aren't going to like you. You might get spit on or shot at, but hey, it's, it's a good job. Come on and join our department.
- [36:59]
Jay Wiley
Well, first of all, they've got to. Number one, people that go into law enforcement now, most of them have a college education of some degree or another. A lot of them are military veterans. Many of them speak multiple languages. They bring many skill sets to the table that are very much sought after in our communities. And by the way, when I call 911 because I have a medical emergency in my home, I want the very best possible to show up. And more than likely it's going to be law enforcement first because there's more, they're more mobile, they're usually closer. So I want them, I want the best ones showing up. These people have more options now. So if they have a choice of making $40,000 a year where they can get sued and by the way, immunity from prosecution is taken away or looking for, they can be held civilly liable for what they're trained to do. They can get arrested, they can get killed, they can get permanently injured and maimed. And by the way, your entire department, city will attack you. They're not gonna take that job for $40,000 when they can get another job, that's $45,000 and it's a lot safer. And by the way, having nights and
- [38:11]
Sherry Harrison
weekends off, yeah, almost a normal job. It's amazing when I hear these different agencies come on and they're, they're struggling to recruit people. And it used to be a job where, you know, people wanted to be the good guy. We need more good guys out there. Definitely.
- [38:31]
Jay Wiley
I think there's a lot of people out there that really still want to do this job. And it's a calling, it's a vocation. There's many people that are so good at what they do and they're community servants. And the reason they carry that gun is when people attack them so they can save their life or the life of someone else. It's not to go gun people down, but when they, these people really want to do this job, they've got families to take care of. They've got other obligations would like to take care of. And maybe they're getting the point. We're saying it's just not worth it to risk all that. When my wife or my, my husband and my kids, you know, they're the ones are going to have to pay the price when I'm killed, they're the ones who be left alone. Or worse yet, when I'm physically disabled and maimed for the rest of my life, they got to help take care of me. And we're going to make a lot less, which is happening at alarming rates every part of the United States.
- [39:21]
Sherry Harrison
And you know, I, with some of the situations that have happened over the last year or so, you know, I think it's trial by media and people are bad mouthing law enforcement when they go after people that, what was it, a 12 year old running around at 2:30 in the morning with a gun and he got shot. He didn't put the gun down or he just dropped it when you know he got shot. What is your 12 year old doing out at 2:30 in the morning waving a gun?
- [39:54]
Jay Wiley
People will have me tell you then this is my sarcasm coming out and I apologize in advance. People will tell you it takes a village. Yeah. And to some degree it does. But it also takes a parent, one good parent that's involved in her child's life. If you have two great. If you have aunts and uncles and neighbors that care about the kid, they're not going to tolerate that nonsense.
- [40:13]
Sherry Harrison
No, they're not. And you know, nothing good was coming out of that situation. And most of the situations that have gotten into the media have involved illegal weapons, drugs, people are on drugs, felony warrants. They're trying to, you know, take a felon off the street and they get combative and end up, you know, getting injured or permanently injured.
- [40:37]
Jay Wiley
And basically that's what happened to me. It I was 33 years old and like I said, I thought I knew in this incident, Sherry, that this guy was trying to kill me. When I came to this conclusion, this guy's trying to kill me. And the first thought came to my mind was I'm going to die. But it's not going to be tonight and it's not going to be because of him. I'm going to do whatever it takes to survive. But I thought I'd sprained my wrist and I was 33, married, had two children, mortgage, everyone wanted life and within a matter of months my pay was three quarters of what it was before and I was on the Way out and my career was over.
- [41:13]
Sherry Harrison
Yeah. And it happens in a. In a flash. Did you watch the Capitol Police testify this past week?
- [41:22]
Jay Wiley
I did not. I don't watch a lot of those things. And the reason why is I get too upset. First of all, it hits things in me that brings up memories of things in the past, and it's a physical, physiological response. So I don't watch them now.
- [41:39]
Sherry Harrison
Those, those, all those police are going to be, for the rest of their lives, be affected by what happened on January 6th and their families. Their families and people don't think about it. If you're married to law enforcement or military, your family is also a part of that department because, you know, what did your wife go through when. When you were shot?
- [42:05]
Jay Wiley
Yeah, well, I tell people I wish that we had some of the tools now that we had, that we have available now back then, you know, my, my first marriage ended because of. I didn't handle it better. And you're absolutely right. There is positive there. There's definite impacts that's going to happen on the family members and they're going to get impacted. My daughters are impacted and they're in their 30s. Granted, it's not part of their daily life anymore, but they certainly paid a price and they were very young when this happened. So we have got to get better at having conversations with ourselves. Our law enforcement committee, our firefighters, our EMTs, our corrections officers, dispatchers, they're all paying a heavy price to try to make our lives safer. And it's being driven by politics and politicians and people trying to create. You need to be afraid. There's an old saying from movie. The greatest trick ever played is when the devil convinced the world he didn't exist. Well, that's been replaced by the biggest trick in the world is convincing that police are the enemy. And not 1%. Outlaw motorcycle gangs and MS.13 and the mafia or anybody else. You gotta be afraid of the police. That's preposterous.
- [43:19]
Sherry Harrison
Yeah, it is. Absolutely is. But that's, you know, the media is out there. And it's not just the media, the news media. I was watching and I talked about this on the show before I was watching the news media. They were reporting an officer involved shooting. And the reporter said the racist policeman went after this kid who had a felony warrant out and shot him because he was black. Not the fact that the kid was shooting at him and they were exchanging fire and the kid started it and he had a felony warrant. You know, the racist police went after him. I'm like, what are you, what are you doing? This isn't reporting. You're not being, you know, this is very biased.
- [44:05]
Jay Wiley
It's, it's about opinion and speculation. Most of what passes at news nowadays, and again, you and I both work in radio, most of which passes for news nowadays, especially in the morning shows, is opinion and speculation. And they bring in so called experts. And I'm thinking half the time, what are they even talking about? I don't know if these people even know a clue what they're talking about. And that's what a lot of our news reporters are. Some states are changing. As a police officer, in many states, you're a public official. And people say whatever they want as long as there's some basis in truth to it. There's, there's, you're pretty much open game. Now that I'm retired, if someone comes out to me and calls me those sort of things, they can expect to be in court, they're going to get sued.
- [44:49]
Sherry Harrison
Yeah. And people need to stop doing that and just report what's happening. We call them the talking heads. You know, what did the talking heads say today?
- [45:00]
Jay Wiley
Yeah, exactly, exactly.
- [45:02]
Sherry Harrison
You know, and you're right, it's basically their opinion. They're not trying to get the truth out there. And this is something that we try to do, you and I both, and I think we're both of the same generation. I had a lot of friends in Vietnam and you know, when they came back, it was pretty horrific. I was appalled because my mom and dad were both in the Marine Corps during World War II. So I was raised differently. I was raised to respect the military, respect police. And people don't raise their kids like that anymore.
- [45:38]
Jay Wiley
And unfortunately some don't. And that's going back to that. Hey, I don't have to take care of my kids and raise them the idiots. I'm sorry. The village will do it so I don't have to do it. The problem is a lot of the leaders in the village are idiots.
- [45:53]
Sherry Harrison
Yeah. Oh, yeah. In this whole thing with COVID thing, how does Covid affected you and your family? Are you okay?
- [46:01]
Jay Wiley
Everybody's good. My wife and I got vaccinated probably about four or five months ago because, you know, we're. I'm in my early 60s and I'm never worried about it. I tell people this whole six feet apart. I prefer 21ft apart. And look, it's right on my alley. I go to a radio station, I do my job, then I go home and I have to be around people that's like, perfect environment for me. I like it. So we got the shots because we want to be able to travel. And people are entitled. Their opinions, you know, I'm just not. I don't engage them. They want to argue about it, go have at it. I got other things to do.
- [46:40]
Sherry Harrison
Yeah, I was vaccinated, too. And. Same, same. I've got other things to do. And the politics of this whole Covid thing is just blows my mind, you know, I'm not going to go to my precinct captain to find out what I need for my sore throat. I'm just. It doesn't work that way. So listen to your doctors. Listen to the scientists. That's the best thing you can do. And use your head.
- [47:07]
Jay Wiley
Common sense, you know, I wear my seatbelt when I drive a car because I've never seen a professional race car driver drive without one. When I was a police officer, always wore soft body armor because that was ingrained in me. So getting the vaccination was not a big deal. I've been. As a kid, I was vaccinated against everything. I probably like you. I had the scar on my arm. We had every inoculation in the world known to mankind. We had. And I'm fine. So getting this thing. But when people get on TV and they love to talk about it and Covid this, Covid that. We need to do this, we need that. I'm like, yeah, you need to. You need to shut up.
- [47:44]
Sherry Harrison
Yeah, it's on the news. People are protesting. Wear a mask. People are protesting. Don't wear a mask. I'm thinking. Get a life.
- [47:54]
Jay Wiley
Sherry, I'm busy. You're busy? Aren't you busy?
- [47:56]
Sherry Harrison
I'm busy. Terribly busy. I don't have time for that. But I remember when I was in grade school, the nuns would line us up and everybody got a shot in school.
- [48:08]
Jay Wiley
Yeah.
- [48:09]
Sherry Harrison
And it was, you know, no questions asked. It's a done deal, and I have the scars to prove it.
- [48:16]
Jay Wiley
I can go back. And we're obviously the same age group. I grew up in Norfolk, Virginia, big military town. And one of the drills we had was the fire drill. Everybody knew that in elementary school. But the other one we had was a nuclear bomb drill where they did sound the alarm and we had to get on our desk. And we were convinced because this is what the government told us, hey, this will keep you safe. Getting under a little desk is not going to save your life. A nuclear bomb is dropped on your school. It's just not going to make a difference. Yet we did it. Anyway, so people get too occupied on what the talking heads say you should or shouldn't do and they pepper it with their opinion. Oh, and they're elitist. I'll look down at you because you're stupid if you don't agree in the type attitude. Well, I found out later on in life that desk in his drills did nothing and never would have done anything. But it was nice to make us feel like we were putting a band aid on the bleed, you know what I mean?
- [49:06]
Sherry Harrison
Air raid drills, I remember them. And you know, we had blackout trails too. And then it was replaced with tornado drills.
- [49:16]
Jay Wiley
Yeah.
- [49:17]
Sherry Harrison
So we were drilled all over the place.
- [49:20]
Jay Wiley
Yeah, drilled and given shots and given shots.
- [49:23]
Sherry Harrison
Stand there, don't move. So, yeah, that's a different time now. People, people are. There's, there's a group of people who want their kids to get vaccine vaccinated and another group that says, no way. It's just crazy. I think the world's just going crazy.
- [49:42]
Jay Wiley
Yeah. My daughters, like I said, they're in their early 30s and they've both been vaccinated. That's their choice. And they get to decide what they want to do. If I had, I was a parent of a five year old, a six year old. Right now I think my mind's gonna be totally different. And again, I go back to. People are entitled. Their opinions and their point of view, their perspective. Their perspective is their reality. It doesn't mean it has to match their facts. So it's not just about. This is about anything. When people start spouting off, the more emotional they are about something, quite often it's run by their perspective, their experience. And who am I to tell them they're wrong? All I can do is, hey, not be part of the problem, be part of the solution.
- [50:21]
Sherry Harrison
And when you're listening to the news, switch it up. Listen to all the stations. Don't just focus in on one station because after a while you've got their perspective. Whether it's liberal or it's conservative, whatever it is, you've been. It's kind of like a brainwashing. It's, you know, that's your perspective and that's what you believe. And there's a lot of propaganda out there all over the place. So you need to consider the source too.
- [50:51]
Jay Wiley
Yeah. And people, they asked me and one of the greatest compliments I've had working in radio is they'll say, you know, I don't know if you're conservative or liberal or what you are. And I'm like, thank you. That's the whole point. Because when I do a radio show, especially music radio show, it's not about me. It's about my audience and it's about my guests and making sure they get what they need, like you're doing. We have a conversation and what I believe, what my thoughts, what my opinions are really don't matter. Experience is what people really want to hear about.
- [51:23]
Sherry Harrison
Yeah, it's true. And we try to get the good news out there. Not that everybody wants to hear it, but we do. Every once in a while we'll get an agency will call and say, hey, we've got somebody want to brag about. We've got a segment we call above and beyond the badge. And you can see it on our website, lawmatters1030.org. And we've got some really exceptional law enforcement people out there who do things they don't need to to do. They can go to work and go home and, you know, not be bothered, collect the paycheck. But these people are invested in their community and they really want to help people. And like you said, it's a vocation. You want to be a part of the community and part of making it better. That's why people get into law enforcement and the military. And we need more people like that all across the country.
- [52:14]
Jay Wiley
Absolutely. And a lot of big things happening in departments is what they call laterals. They'll take people who are experienced police or other agencies and give them a job at a higher rate of pay. They don't have to train them. I had a guest on a show, sheriff's department in Maryland, and he said it cost him on average, I think, $120,000 to get one deputy on the street between all the people that don't make it, that don't, don't wash out, that don't make it to the academy or whatever it might be. That's the cost. And then many of them are leaving within three years. So the retention problem on top of that is huge. So what they're doing is they're going for the best of, let's say Tucson is doing laterals for the county guys that have 10 years on the job. I say guys, that means men and women, they're getting the best of the best and they're taken from other agencies because everybody is in this race to try to get and fill the positions they need because our communities need these people.
- [53:15]
Sherry Harrison
Yes, they do. And it's, you know, you say it takes a village. It does take a village. And I remember when I was little, there was a bobby on the beat. People would know who the law, law enforcement officer was. John was our officer. John, he was our policeman in our neighborhood. He walked the neighborhood, he talked to people, he shook hands, he, you know, played catch with the kids. You don't see that anymore. Not a lot. Periodically you'll see it, but not a lot. And they don't have manpower to do that. They don't have the manpower to. Actually we were told that they are not pulling speeders over anymore. They're not giving out tickets because they don't have the people to do that. They are responding to calls. They don't have people just patrolling. And it makes a big difference.
- [54:09]
Jay Wiley
I remember my first post in Baltimore. My sergeant said to me, if I pull someone up and pull you up in front of somebody, you don't know who their name is. You don't know where they live, you don't know where they're good guy or bad guy. You know who the parents are. You're not doing your job. Your job is to handle calls for service and be a fixture's community. And you knew you arrived when the people in the community gave you a nickname and that was you became part of. You got invited to the backyard barbecue. And of course you're also there when people took their last breaths when they got shot. So you're on all sides of it. And when you have encounters with people, it's usually because they're having a really, really bad moment. So it really helps if they know someone. But we don't have enough people to fill those positions, even handle calls for service. You're going to lose that aspect. What we call community policing now was what we did all the time was everyday polic policing. And I was taught that by Vietnam veterans and I was taught that by even some Korean War veterans who are commanders. It's about being respect and about giving it and getting it and being an integral part of the community and helping solve people's problems.
- [55:15]
Sherry Harrison
Yeah, and I think that's, that's the big thing is respecting the people in your community and they'll respect you back and treating everybody right. If we can, if we can do that. What was your nickname, Jay?
- [55:28]
Jay Wiley
I've had many. My first one was Bigfoot because I wear a size 13 shoe. And then remember Deep Throat from the Watergate days of a deep voice? They called me Deep Throat after that.
- [55:41]
Sherry Harrison
Okay, give me some words of wisdom for our listeners and people who are thinking about getting into law enforcement or the military.
- [55:50]
Jay Wiley
Listen, if you want to get into it. I would tell people, get into the military when you're young. I didn't do that. I was stupid. I stayed home, had menial jobs, go somewhere, learn something and if you're interested in creating law enforcement, get it but one and go for it. But one thing I would tell people is you have a dentist you see every year, you have a general position physician you see every year. If you're going into law enforcement, make sure you have a psychologist, a psychiatrist that is skilled in trauma you see once a year on your own so that you can do the proactive work to prevent any long term mental injuries. But it's a great career and I highly recommend it.
- [56:31]
Sherry Harrison
That's really sound advice because you're going to benefit from it, so will your family. Because so many times people don't, you know, they take the work home and either they talk about it or they don't. And if it's bottled up, you're not getting the help you need. Jay, I want to thank you so much for coming on the show. You're absolute scholar. I love you.
- [56:52]
Jay Wiley
Thanks Sherry. It's a pleasure.
- [56:54]
Sherry Harrison
Okay, until next week, I want everybody to shop local, stay safe and stay out of the wash.
- [57:00]
John J. Wiley
The Law Enforcement Talk Radio show is a nationally syndicated weekly radio show broadcast on numerous AM&FM radio stations across the country. We're all always adding more affiliate stations. If you enjoyed the podcast version of the show, which is always free, please do me a favor and tell a friend or two or three. I'll be back in just a few days with another episode of the Law Enforcement Talk Radio show and Podcast. Until then, this is John J. Wiley.
- [57:27]
Jay Wiley
See ya. If you like the show, please take a moment to rate, review and subscribe. Subscribe. It really does help the show to grow. Thank you for listening.