← Law Enforcement Talk: True Crime and Trauma Stories
Law Enforcement Talk: True Crime and Trauma Stories
What Caused Him to Be a Crime Fighter
00:39:09
What Caused Him to Be a Crime Fighter: From Gangs in England to a Global Mission. In this Special Episode of the Law Enforcement Talk Radio Show and Podcast, listeners are introduced to Simon Osamoh, a former police officer from England whose journey from the streets of the United Kingdom to becoming an American-based security consultant, author, and podcaster is nothing short of remarkable.
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- [00:00]
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- [00:57]
John J. Wiley
Start your free trial@shopify.com He's a former law enforcement officer in England. He left the department at the rank of police detective. He was involved in investigating organized crime, terrorism. He's involved in the 311 TSA travel rule and he'll explain that growing up in England, policing violence and much more. Welcome to the law Enforcement Talk Radio show. In the law Enforcement talk radio show we are joined by special guest talking about their experiences, their realities of investigating crimes plus those who've experienced horrendous trauma. Police, first responders, military and victims of crime share their stories. Hi, I'm John J. Wiley. In addition to being a broadcaster, I'm also a retired police sergeant. Be sure to check out our website letradio.com and also like us on Facebook search for the law enforcement Talk radio show. And if you're on the Clubhouse Drop in audio chat app, be sure to look for me and follow me. My name's John the letter J. Wiley W I L E Y. You can also search for ET Radio show. That's John J. Wiley W I L E Y T Radio show on the Clubhouse Drop In Audio Chat Apple calling us from the great state of Minnesota. We have Simon Osamo on the phone. Simon. Well, we're all familiar with the term bicoastal, meaning someone spends significant amount of time on the east Coast United States and significant amount of time on the west coast United States. Simon is kind of by Atlantic or by Pondo. Is that a right phrase? I don't know. He was born and raised in the United Kingdom. He's a former English police detective living in Minnesota. Simon, thanks so much for being a guest on the show. Very much appreciated.
- [02:49]
Simon Osamo
Well, thanks, John, for the invitation. I'm really excited to talk to you and hopefully share some wisdom and let people know a bit of it, more about my life and my experiences in the UK Police.
- [03:00]
John J. Wiley
One of the things is Americans are, and I don't know why I'm going to just put it out there. Americans are fascinated with the British accent. And I know I've had friends that he was in the British Air Force, for lack of better terms, stationed in Southern Maryland, and she's from a different part of England and the kids are born in different parts and they all had different accents. And when you put them together, you could understand and see the differences. Where in the United Kingdom were you born and raised?
- [03:29]
Simon Osamo
Yes, I'm from a town called Reading, which is around sort of 40, 50 miles west of London. So for some people listening, it might sound sort of very London, sort of esque, but it's actually just sort of west of, of London, which on you raise an interesting point because for your podcast, people actually won't know from my accent, but I'm actually. My dad is black Nigerian. My mum is white English. So I'm obviously mixed race and I've been stopped by the police before. And when I start talking, it confuses them very greatly to see this black guy with an English accent talking. So we often have a laugh and a joke at the side of the road about that. It's quite funny to see when I talk how it can capture people off guard. They're not expecting it.
- [04:12]
John J. Wiley
It's one of the things I love about doing this show across the United States and a successful podcast. But one of the reasons we launch his show is to break the Hollywood stereotypes about what police are like. And granted, Simon, you're from a different country, but you were a police officer. And there's many similarities, there's some differences, but you break all those stereotypes, which I applaud and I love.
- [04:35]
Simon Osamo
Yeah. One of the things, John, is interesting you say that because what I always say to people is that, you know, the police departments or police force we call in England, they should be representative of the communities. People should be surprised to find, you know, black people or Asians or any ethnicity, because you've got to reflect the community that you, that you serve. So it does fascinate me when people don't expect to see certain profiles. But, you know, we've got, we've got to reflect those communities. But, yeah, I mean, I grew up in very humble Backgrounds. It's important for my story that people know that, you know, my parents separated before I was born, so I've never met my father. That meant that I lived in a council house. In American terms, that means sort of social housing, you know, wasn't sort of what didn't grow up in poverty, but lived in sort of very poor and humble backgrounds. And there was key times in my life, John, where, you know, perhaps I could have gone in the opposite direction. And people from my school age might be saying, hey, Simon, I'm surprised to hear that you spent 14 years in the police force. I thought you'd end up in prison yourself, you know, so that's part of my sort of journey. Journey as well. So, yeah, we're all different people, all different backgrounds, you know, serving the. Serving the community.
- [05:50]
John J. Wiley
So many people in police work that I've met came to a point in their life where they're like, which side of this fence or the law do want to be on the good side, the bad side or whatever terms you want to use. Did you have a point in your life where you decided, look, this is the direction I want to take my life in? I don't want to be a part of the street life, I don't want to be part of crime?
- [06:10]
Simon Osamo
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, if you take the area that I grew up in, like I said, I mean, I grew up on a council estate, which is sort of social housing. So by nature and demographic, most people on that were poor or living on some type of government assistance. And, you know, I look at my time in the police force and I should say, if you're listening, I spent some of my time in uniform policing the town where I grew up. And I think I might be arrested between five and 10 people that were sort of my age that I'd sort of gone to school with. And I do look at that and say, well, why. Why didn't I go in that direction? I've got to be the very understanding and loving son to say that how my mum raised me was crucial to that at times when I could have been going on the wrong path. And I was talking about hard. I was taught about sort of hard work, perseverance, determination, having respect for property. So all those things made me always stay in a straight line. But I've come to understand in my life, John, like a lot of us do, but not everyone has that stable environment. I always craved a father figure, but I don't think you necessarily need two parents in your life, but you do need someone that places faith in you. So I think that that is a key reason why I didn't drift into the wrong circles like some people do, is I had a very, very loving mother who was always very supportive of everything I wanted to do. And I know now age 42, not everyone has that. I love short, not everyone does.
- [07:47]
John J. Wiley
And I've met people that came from very similar backgrounds that never got in trouble, that were and are very accomplished in life, that are very successful. And I've met people who were very successful and came from what's considered a privileged background, very wealthy families that are hardcore criminals. And sometimes it's got a lot to do with it and sometimes it doesn't. And I'll be honest with you, Simon, I don't know the rhyme or reason behind it anymore.
- [08:15]
Simon Osamo
Yeah, no, well. And I'll tell you an interesting story time. You know, what I learned, John, was the criminal mind fascinates me. And I became a detective at 23, which again, on US terms is my probably very young, but what I always used to say to people, if you're good enough, you're old enough. You know, if anyone would challenge my age inside the police, you know, just they were looking my track record for, I can remember a pedophile ring was sort of caught on the west coast of la and they had all these credit card details from across the world and they gave us these credit card details in the UK of all these men that access this pedophile site. And basically we went around their houses and seized their computers. If we found anything on their computers, then we then go back and talk to them because all we knew was their credit card had been used on this child pornography site. And there's one guy, I'll name him because he was convicted, a guy called Graham Jerome. And we went around there and I said, you know, are we going to find anything on your computer? And he said, well, you tell me what you found and I'll tell you what I'm going to say. So, okay, Jonathan, if he wants to, he wants to be that type of person, we can do that. And it took three or four months to do an analysis of his computer. And it was something ridiculous, John, like 50,000 indecent images of children cataloged, you know, folded all on his hard drive. And I went back to him and said, it doesn't really matter what you say, you know, you're going to prison. And this guy, you know, this guy said to me, John, he looked me in the eye and said, you know, someone who's downloaded all these images of children. He said, do you find men or women attractive? And I said, well, I find women attractive. He said, so you can do whatever you want to me, but why do you think you can change my sexuality and my preference? Because I like, you know. And he went on to tell me what he what he liked. I won't trouble your listeners with having that burden. But in that moment, John, it really fascinated me because I thought, okay, this is the conversation, you know, he was saying to me, as much as you can change your sexuality to find men attractive, why do you think incarceration is going to change me so?
- [10:25]
John J. Wiley
And on that note, we're gonna take a short break. We're talking with Simon Osimo on the Law Enforcement Show. A reformer police detective for United Kingdom. He's an author, he's a podcaster, and he's also heavily involved in a case that impacts travel for terrorism reasons. Don't go anywhere. We'll be right back. Of all the radio stations in the United States, there are no other shows like the law enforcement talk radio show. And on Facebook, there's only one official page. Do a search on Facebook for the Law Enforcement Talk radio show and be sure to like the law Enforcement Talk radio show Facebook page For accredited investors
- [11:05]
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- [12:06]
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- [12:39]
John J. Wiley
Return to conversation with Simon Osmo on the law enforcement. Simon is a former police detective from England. He's also a podcaster and author. And breaking all kinds of stereotypes from Hollywood about law enforcement for winter break. SIMON we're talking about understanding the criminal mind and we're talking about sexual preference. And look, I had to deal with rapists and sex offenders and child sex predators and that's a part of the job that, I'll be honest with you, doesn't really quite go away. And it didn't matter if the victim was 80 years old or 8 months old. The younger ones were really hard and the older ones, they were all difficult to be honest with you. But I never understood those cats.
- [13:25]
Simon Osamo
Yeah. And I'll tell you about understanding the criminal mind, John and on one thing that my time as a detective talking to so many sophisticated criminals is that, you know, that line is very thin between which way that they can walk. And it's actually a guy that I incarcerated around 15 years ago who was a white collar criminal, very well known in, in England. Now in his 40s, he spent over sort of 20 years incarcerated. But even when I used to investigate him time and time again, I could see something in him, John thinking he's very entrepreneurial. He used to think if only he could harness that sort of spirit and that sort of entrepreneurial spirit for the good, he could achieve so much in his life. And really some people find his story amazing. Others say that it is a Hollywood movie that when I immigrated to America, you know, 10 years ago, around five years ago, this guy was out of prison, started to turn his life around. There was a news article on him and actually rang him up, John, and said, hey, I'm the person that put you in prison. For a while me and him held a very good and deep conversation, you know, and I've sort of remained what I now consider a friend in his life because he has turned his life around. He's taken what used to be a criminal mind and now has become an entrepreneur and he's incredibly successful. John must be more successful, will ever do and is doing well with it. So it is, it is interesting on that criminal mind as to how it can really change and develop with age. And just sort of where people are. Some life is about perspective, isn't it? It's fascinating.
- [15:07]
John J. Wiley
It is. And when we look at what the news media and social media and Hollywood puts out, they. They portray this image that every encounter with the police, especially when there's an arrest made, it's always hostile, it's always aggressive, and the people are almost pugilistic with each other and enemies. And that's not the case. I had many people that got sober and they got clean, and they would come up to you and say, you know, you helped save my life by locking me up. And I remember clearly having a conversation with drug dealers, armed drug dealers, saying, dude, you're out here every day of the year, 12, 14 hours a day. Doesn't matter if it's snowing, raining, windy, cold, doesn't matter. You're out here, you're trying to dodge the police. You're trying to dodge people ripping you off. You're trying to dodge other dealers trying to steal from you. And if you put that kind of energy into something legitimate, you'd be a wealthy, wealthy man.
- [15:59]
Simon Osamo
Yeah. And a lot of people, you mentioned yourself, you know, there are some very sophisticated criminals, and I've come across a few that have had everything in life. And they've been given opportunities, they've had wealth in their family. But the basis of most of the people that I met there are people that have had no trust in their life. They've had no direction, They've had no role models. Believe it or not. You know, I mean, I lost count one time as to how many years I'd incarcerated people for. I think it was hundreds of years. A lot of counsel. We used to work in organized crimes. We used to dis out big sentences. But I'm not too sure that incarceration is the full way. Because when they get incarcerated, what rehabilitation is there for them? A lot of these people need social skills. They need to know how to hold down a job. They need to know how to interact in society. So there's many components of it. But I'm not truly convinced that solely incarceration is the way forward because of the upbringing that a lot of these criminals have had. But they need guidance in life with some. Some people just whatever personal circumstances don't have. Fascinating.
- [17:07]
John J. Wiley
Yeah, I don't know the answer to that either. And I'll be honest with you, I swing like a pendulum on it sometimes. And a lot of it has to do with the individual. There are so many people in prison in the United States that I encountered that were there, if it wasn't for drugs and alcohol, they'd never would have done the things they did and wound up being incarcerated. Now, granted, they're responsible for what they've done, so they have to pay a price. The other ones are people that had 10 bad minutes their life where they made a bad decision and they wound up paying the price by spending a certain amount of time in prison. And then you have the hardcore career criminals. The hardcore career criminals, I think a lot of them are beyond rehabilitation, at least by techniques. I would know the other two, man. It's a different situation. And many of them come out and lead great lives afterwards and are happy, healthy, productive members of society. And I welcome them with open arms. I really don't know what the answer is, but I know part of the problem is, you know, economic. But I grew up poor. You said earlier you grew up poor. I grew up in a military family and everybody's a military family. And back then we made. They made next to nothing. And we all had hand me downs. We grew into our clothes, we bought clothes too big. We bought sneakers that were too big and put newspaper in the toes to grow into them. I got a job so I could save enough money to buy a pair of Levi's jeans because we couldn't afford them and Converse sneakers. And that was my motivation. Time. This is what I'm going to do. I'm going to work every day of the summer so I can have one pair of jeans and one pair of sneakers.
- [18:37]
Simon Osamo
Yeah, and it's very true because I would say that, you know, if you look at my personal life growing up, you know, I sort of mentioned that, you know, I had an absent father that I've never met, you know, lived in social housing, you know, sort of. My mum didn't work, so there was only sort of government assistance coming in. You had free school meals. You know, life would mostly look at me and say, well, you know, someone's a victim here of society or circumstances. But I think one of the things that I see about myself is I've never seen myself as a victim. What I say to myself is, well, how do I change this? And I changed through my change my circumstances, through hard work, determination and finding a strong career where I could find purpose in. So yeah, it is interesting.
- [19:21]
John J. Wiley
So those are definite choices you made back then. And I would suspect you have to make those choices on a daily basis. It may not be right in front of you saying I got to do this, but somewhere along the lines you have to Decide, look, there's no easier, softer way. If I want certain things in life, I got to get busy and I got to work for them.
- [19:40]
Simon Osamo
Yeah, absolutely. And even within my police career, I mean, there were not many times when, you know, if I want, if I wanted a job within the police, John, you know, generally I would go for that job and I would get it. If I wanted to become a sergeant when I left the police, I detective sergeant, you know, I would work for it and get it and then I sort of see results. But what I would say where I became very successful is, is that consistency of studying, working hard, building those blocks. And someone might just say, well, any job Simon goes for, he wants to go on the robbery team, he gets there. He wants to go and organize crime, he gets it. But behind the scenes was the hard work, the consistency to get there. And those were for sure learned behaviors. Because at school, I left school with my high school diploma. I'm not very clever, John, I'll be the first to admit that. But I can work very hard. No one will work harder than me. One of my sayings in life for
- [20:39]
John J. Wiley
sure, look, I was not a great student. I begged for one point to pass algebra and geometry because I got a 69 all the time and had to get that extra point. But I will outwork just about everybody else. We're talking with Simon Osimo. He's. Simon is a former police detective from England. He's also a podcaster and author. He lectures and trains law enforcement United States. When we return, we're going to talk about organized crime investigation in the United Kingdom and more. Don't go anywhere. We will be right back.
- [21:12]
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- [21:28]
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- [23:33]
John J. Wiley
Back to our conversation with Simon Osamo on the law enforcement Simon is calling us from Minnesota. He's originally born and raised in the United Kingdom in England. He is a former police detective. Is it from Reading Pen? Reading, Pennsylvania? Reading, England, Correct?
- [23:49]
Simon Osamo
Correct. That's correct, John.
- [23:51]
John J. Wiley
See my my background in the mid Atlantic is popping up because Reading, Pennsylvania was where you went to the outlet stores to go shopping and buy bags and bags of socks and underwear and all that stuff. So totally different environment. But you immigrated to the United States. You did about 14 years in law enforcement and before with a break, you were talking about if you wanted something in your law enforcement career, you're very driven and if you wanted to get into robbery Squad, you worked to get it done. And part of your career was involved in organized crime and terrorism. And I know that something that affects a lot of people, terrorism is something that's international, the organized crime portion of it. We tend to think of American organized crime and we don't think of the organized crime aspects of in the United Kingdom. Brief Overview what was that like to get into that form of policing? How was how difficult was it for you?
- [24:43]
Simon Osamo
Yeah, it's very, very difficult. So in My police department, police force, we call it England, was Thames Valley police. And there's around 4,000 sworn officers and maybe two or 3,000 support staff. So it gives you an idea. Very large, I believe, John, in England, population of 65 million, there's only around 50 different recognized police departments that govern that entire country of populations a lot larger. You're a lot more powerful, you have a lot more control and a lot more influence. And so there was around 40 detectives in organized crime out of a department of 4,000 sworn officers. So to get into the team, you have to be very good. And to stay there you have to be very good because there was always someone wanting to take your place, which means that you attract people that are highly motivated, highly dedicated. And also when that phone call comes in at 2 o' clock in the morning to say we're on for surveillance, you're going to get those people that sort of jump out of, jump out of bed. Now I was that guy and I was like, everyone you see these cop shows, you're fascinated by it. And I always love to see John, what happens when someone closes their, close their door. I believe another sort of skill that I have, which you need in organized crime is you need patience. I believe it's why the Chinese and Russians are very good at sort of infiltrations because they have, they have patience. But different to the us, we in England, our chief of police can authorize and can sanction many different covert police tactics. Because in England we don't have federal law enforcement, we just have law enforcement. So within my team of 40 detectives, we would do phone tap investigations. We would do what we call covert entries is a police term really. You're breaking into people's houses and planting listening devices. We would do surveillance, following people around. We would monitor people's personal finances through the financial institutions. And most of that, John, can be authorised by the Chief for Police, which is very different culture than here in the us. The British system is based on. It's difficult to catch these organized criminals as it is. If you're following Simon Osimo and you have an opportunity to break into his house and find a list device, we're not going to slow you down to have these 16 different levels of authorities. The chief of police can give you a verbal authority and then you go in and do it. And then retrospectively you can get the written authority. So how organised crime is investigated between the two countries is very different. I say that to some law enforcement, they say, car, I'd love to be a detective in England. And I said to some people and they're shocked how easy it is to get these authorities. But you know, we're talking about those that are bringing in drugs, terrorism, you know, those real bad things in society. But you do want the police to be able to investigate and tackle very quickly. And if there's too many authorities, it slows down the investigations because like I said, the Chinese and Russians are very good at this because they have patience. And for us to investigate and actually sort of arrest these people, we also need patients to do them because you might only get one opportunity once in 12 months where Simon's going to ring up someone and say, have you got the £2 million? Because I've got the 60 kilos of cocaine. Let's, let's get our people talking to each other. So very different culture. John is really telling you there.
- [28:24]
John J. Wiley
When we talk about organized crime over there, what are some of the kind of organized crime groups that plagued a part of England you policed in?
- [28:34]
Simon Osamo
Well, you get different sort of ethnicities, if I can say that. Do it. I mean, predominantly everything, you know, funds through money laundering, you know, I mean, that is. But behind organized crime it's easy to say that, you know, money laundering has to be behind it because there's legitimate businesses because they've got to clean their money to then sort of integrate it back into the finance institution. So you have various different ways and business types of them, but they'll do that. But when I was leaving, sort of towards the end of 2020, when I came over a lot of Eastern European crime, what was coming into the UK and that was getting a lot more violent with knife crimes, with sort of weapons and with sort of firearms. So firearms, as a sort of a generalization are outlawed in the United Kingdom. And it 10 generally tends to be the organized criminals and the sort of criminals would use the firearms of a high level criminals that use the firearms generally for their own enforcement. As a police officer, very rarely did I see a firearm use. It does happen.
- [29:40]
John J. Wiley
So we encounter them quite often and. Yeah, but you guys, what? Well, we have a conception here in United States that all British police are unarmed. That's not accurate, is it?
- [29:51]
Simon Osamo
Correct? That isn't accurate. So we just have roving, sort of roaming police cars that have firearms and then they can be called. Every town, every police department would have a roaming armored vehicle that has, you know, ar firearms on board. But you have to remember John, as a starting point. Firearms bar refused. Shotguns and hunting rifles are predominantly outlawed in the United Kingdom. So there is the basis that most people you come across won't have those firearms. And if you see them in organized crime, and I did come across a few guns, a lot of those are generally tended for enforcement of their drug transactions, not necessarily geared towards the police. But it does, I don't want to say it doesn't happen. It does happen that police become victims of those firearms, but as a whole they're used for enforcement because, you know, firearms are outlawed. So we don't tend to see too many people with guns and nor do they expect the police to be carrying.
- [30:53]
John J. Wiley
One of the things that I tell people all the time, and this is a bone of contention I have with the American media, they have thrown this term out there, gun violence, gun violence and gun violence. And what I always say is violence is violence. You may not have come from an environment where there's a lot of gun violence because of legislation, but you came from an environment we had a tremendous amount of knife and sharp edged weapons violence. Correct?
- [31:17]
Simon Osamo
Yeah, absolutely. I know. Me and you spoke about this one time. John Offline. Surrounding. The easiest thing to really say is that people are people no matter where you are. And I think I've visited maybe 30 countries now my life. People are people. So brokenness is brokenness. If you replace incident of mass violence here in the US you can hopefully change that in England to mass violence with a knife. You know, if someone was going to take out their firearm, more likely getting slashed with a knife or some other weapons. So the, the outcome is the same that someone is injured, just the style of weapon is different. So yeah, I wouldn't. Having lived in the US now for 10 years and 33 years in the UK, there isn't really a difference in the criminal mind, just the outcome and their weapon of choice changes. It's really crucial for the American audience to know crime is just crime.
- [32:12]
John J. Wiley
We used to have a saying that you could do your best with police to try to eliminate the opportunity to commit a crime by being as omnipresent as possible. You couldn't take away absolute access to the tools to commit the crime and certainly you couldn't take away their motivation to commit the crime. When we return to the Law Enforcement show, our interview with Simon Osimo, former police detective from England, also podcaster and author. We're going to talk about investigating terrorism, international terrorism and ties to travel, a case that he was involved in. Don't go anywhere. We'll be right back.
- [32:48]
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- [33:18]
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Are you using myfico.com no, it's some other company. Oh, you should get a MyFICO account instead.
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- [35:54]
John J. Wiley
Conversation with Simon Ossimo on a law enforcement show with a fascinating character. Simon is a former law enforcement officer police detective from the Reading, England area living in Minnesota. He's also a podcaster and author. We'll talk about his book his podcast a little bit one of the things you were involved in. And by the way, thank you for your service. I forgot to say that earlier I'm really working on getting better at saying to everyone and for some reason I just blanked out when it involves England. But it's very much appreciated what you did over there because one of the cases you're involved in has ramifications for people travel. The 311 rule. What is that about? I know what it is. Explain it from your point of view perspective.
- [36:38]
Simon Osamo
Thanks john. Yeah, in August 2006 there were some British born Muslim extremists which bas had they taken the idea a step further but rather than try to get on, actually it's quite a genius plan when you really think about it. Rather than actually take a bomb onto the plane, they're actually going to make the bomb when on the plane. So it's tied to, as you mentioned, the TSA 311 rule and the British security services. Very similar to your sort of CIA. I'm here John. In the US they are intelligence services. They're not sort of apprehension prosecution. So after 9 11, like a lot of people, every country created these sort of terrorism laws. When the plot became known to the security services, it was one of the sort of first times they said we're going to actually apprehend these individuals in the act and then we're going to prosecute them using this new legislation rather than just preventing this before he even gets there. So there was a lot of, there was a lot of risk for those at the senior level for sure because this hadn't really been done before. But that was the basis of the plot that some British born Muslim extremists were actually going to get onto a plane and make the bomb use liquids that were going to take on their hidden within their luggage and hand luggage, hence no longer being able to take liquids onto a plane.
- [38:06]
John J. Wiley
So they were actually followed onto a plane and they tried to start this act and they were intercepted before they can complete it, obviously.
- [38:14]
Simon Osamo
No, yeah, they weren't following to plan to be. The sort of plot was foiled before then, I should say. But that was, that was the basic as to what they were intended to do. Yes. So the floor was forward before then.
- [38:25]
John J. Wiley
That's really close. Yeah. Because look, there's always a rule of thumb that we had in law enforcement. I imagine the same with, with you guys over there is when I say guys, I mean men and women. If we allow them to go a certain step further, can they commit a crime and harm or kill people? So it's always, it's always questionable, it's always fear driven. We've got to, we got to catch him, but we got to better make the case. So that must have been an overriding factor for you guys.
- [38:52]
Simon Osamo
Absolutely. And you know, I'm not going to betray that I was at that level involved in any of those decisions. But I do understand from doing a lot of reading and research afterwards that America, because the planes were destined to come to America, that's where these guys were wanting to go. But America was saying, well, let us, you know, get, let us know who they are and we'll basically, you know, take it from here. But the British security services and law enforcement were really, no, we want to use this legislation and to apprehend these individuals. So it was fascinating to work on. And there was one individual in particular I can remember at a time we were doing on someone, I can remember looking around, John, and sort of their motivation and the sort of plot was in my mind I was thinking, this person here that we're following intends to kill, you know, two or three thousand people. I can remember stopping, pausing and thinking about that. That someone that appears so normal and someone who has blended into everyday suburbia has this mindset and has this intent. So there is numerous different facets that I learned during that investigation. But it was also very key to me to look in the eyes almost of someone that intends to cause so much harm and have them appear so normal to me it was, it was quite a unique time and moment in my life. John.
- [40:17]
John J. Wiley
Yeah, I've never understood them. I don't understand the thought processes. Look, I Can. And it helps when you're trying to catch someone, whether you're in uniform patrol or your detective, whatever. And you've got got a criminal to think like a criminal, which way would I go? What would I do? It makes it a little easier to apprehend them. But when you talk about terrorists or serial criminals, look, they think in a different way. That doesn't, that doesn't really fit in a normal brain like yours and mine. So in a way, and I hate the term fascinated, but I, I find them intriguing because I don't understand them and their motivation at all.
- [40:56]
Simon Osamo
Yeah. And it is really hard. And I think one of the things working in organized crime is understanding people's mindsets and motivations as well and their sort of ideology. You need to, you need to have empathy towards them and you know, you never should because you know, these are horrible, horrible people. But really understanding their mindset, you know, what is it that they're truly trying to accomplish? How are they hoping to do that? That, what does that mean for the good of society, but for me, or the bad of society in some cases for me, really trying to get into that mindset really helps you to understand. Okay, so then we know this. What are they going to act like? What are they going to walk like? What are they going to be like? How do we find times or disrupt that crime? Opportunities to infiltrate them, to get intelligence that we can then use against them, to bring down their sort of cell or their organized crime group and stuff. You know, infiltration is a big part of really understanding people's lives and motivation to be able to then go and follow them and do a lot of these covert police tactics.
- [42:03]
John J. Wiley
Right. And the motivations oftentimes boil down to money, greed, jealousy, anger, so called crimes of passion. Those, you know, you can kind of think like a criminal and kind of try to figure it out and say if he's motivated by money for doing this, then this would probably be his next step. Or that'd be the next step. So that's one way. But we talk about serial criminals, rapists, sex offenders, pedophiles, terrorists, they operate on a totally different plane. And I've never been able to figure them out. And I'll be honest, the profilers that have got it down to a science, I don't get it whatsoever. But I want to shift gears. I want to talk about you as an individual. After your life in law enforcement, you immigrated to the United States. States. And you have a podcast, you've written a book. Let's talk about your podcast first.
- [42:53]
Simon Osamo
Yeah. Thank you, John. So the whole Became podcast is really about people that have found their purpose, overcome adversity or created a positive mindset. Because I've met a lot of interesting people in my life. I've seen a lot of change and transformation in their lives. I've seen a lot of change and transformation in my life. And I just love to share the stories because we often think that we're going through things alone. Am the only one that this has ever happened to and we know that isn't the case. So I just love to learn the Became piece. How did you get your success? How did you overcome your. Your transformation, you know, sorry. Your adversity to really help them other people grow and learn and be inspired by the stories to know that they can make a positive change in their life. So I just, I just love people that I get to meet through the Hill Became podcast.
- [43:48]
John J. Wiley
And what is the name of your book?
- [43:50]
Simon Osamo
Yes, the book. Actually written two books. Because of my background in safety and security, when I first moved to America, I was in charge of counterterrorism at Mall of America, now one of the largest pieces of infrastructure in the Midwest. I got into safety and security for nonprofits. So I've got one called Securing Church Operations. And then the second one is understanding suspicious Behavior. Most acts of criminality generally start with breaking social boundaries. So I sort of teach people what to go looking for around suspicious behavior and then how to try and intersect that with a sort of more positive outcome.
- [44:30]
John J. Wiley
And where can people get more information about you and all the things you do?
- [44:33]
Simon Osamo
Yes, I mean there's a lot of different things that I did, John, from the Overcame podcast, safety consulting, to coaching young men that have been through similar circumstances to me. But the best thing is just to head over to my own personal website, which is Simon osamo.com My last name is O F A M O H. So just Simon osmo.com where you'll find all the information on there. All my consulting business, my safety and security is kingswoodsc.com kingswoodsc.com so that's how people can can connect if anything I said is resonating with with them today.
- [45:06]
John J. Wiley
Simon, I want to thank you for all you've done and I want to thank you for being guest on the show. Very much appreciated, John.
- [45:12]
Simon Osamo
I'm really appreciative of your time today and I love what you're doing on your radio show and your podcast. So I want to thank you for inspiring many people and remaining the positive part about law enforcement that's really, really important in today's world. So thank you for everything that you do.
- [45:28]
John J. Wiley
John, this was the podcast version of the nationally syndicated Law Enforcement Enforcement talk radio show. And we are so glad that you decided to join us. Big thanks to our guests for telling her story on the show. Two simple things you can do. Be sure to check out our website, letradio.com that's letradio.com and be sure to follow us or like us on Facebook. Do a search on Facebook for law enforcement talk radio show and be sure. Or when you see a post that we put up that you like, that you resonate with, that gets your attention, be sure to share it with your friends. We'll be back in just three days. Another great episode of the show. See you then.