Podcast Summary

Podcast: Le Cours de l'histoire – France Culture
Episode: Écrire l'histoire de France, mode d'emploi : Histoire de France, un récit commun ?
Date: October 7, 2025
Host: Xavier Mauduit
Guests:

• Éric Anceau (Professeur d’histoire contemporaine, coordinateur de “Nouvelle Histoire de France”)
• Jacqueline Lalouette (Professeure d’histoire contemporaine à l’Université de Lille, autrice de “Trois Fleurs de la Nation”)

Overview: Main Theme and Purpose

This episode explores the question of writing a “new” History of France: What does it mean today to create a common narrative for the nation? The discussion revolves around the necessity, challenges, and approaches to constructing a shared history, especially with reference to the recently published Nouvelle Histoire de France (1100 pages, collective work) and Trois Fleurs de la Nation (on the flag, anthem, and motto). The panel addresses the evolution of historical narratives, the role of national symbols, historiographical shifts (such as debates about the “roman national”), and balancing scholarly rigor with public engagement.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Write a New History of France?

[02:36] Éric Anceau

• The Nouvelle Histoire de France responds to three needs:
  • An encyclopedic-yet-accessible project: “Proposer une histoire qui soit à la fois encyclopédique et ludique pour le grand public.”
  • Showcasing leading historians to a wider audience.
  • Updating with new historiographical fields: including gender, environment, and WWII, reflecting the rapid evolution of historical research.
  • Notable quote:

    “L’historiographie va très, très vite et il s’agissait…de renouveler les choses.” [02:36]

2. The Challenge of Collaboration

[03:34-04:08] Jacqueline Lalouette

• Writing cross-period history is a “défi” for specialists used to a specific era.
• Contribution to Nouvelle Histoire de France: focused on “Liberté, égalité, fraternité” and national symbols.

3. Symbolism of the French Flag, Anthem, and Motto

[04:31-05:35] Jacqueline Lalouette

• The flag, anthem, and motto are not just “bouts de tissu” or words but carry deep meaning and are embedded in national life and traditions.
• E.g., display on schools (only became mandatory in 2013); flags at protests.
• Notable quote:

  “On voit que les drapeaux, ce n’est pas seulement des bouts de tissu, mais porteurs de beaucoup de choses...” [04:31]

4. History’s Role in Society and Contemporary Echoes

[06:16] Éric Anceau

• There’s an “écho” between historical research and current events.
• Emphasizes the book is not a partisan history, but “un vrai livre d’histoire.”
• Organizational challenge: finding a balance in topics and the sheer volume; 100 chapters, 340 “éclairages” (short thematic entries).

5. The “Three Flowers of the Nation” as Symbols

[07:42-09:16] Jacqueline Lalouette

• Chose the flag, anthem, and motto because they are constitutional since 1946/1958.
• Other symbols like Marianne and the national holiday lack constitutional status or play different roles.

6. Defining the Nation and France

[11:40-13:43] Éric Anceau, Jacqueline Lalouette

• Nation: A political construct (“une représentation très politique qui permet aux élites de gouverner le peuple”).
• France: Difficult to define through a linear narrative. The book starts with the Franks, and, via archaeology, addresses the “mythe gaulois” separately.

7. Relation to “Les Lieux de Mémoire” and Pierre Nora

[14:08-17:25] Multiple speakers

• Les Lieux de Mémoire (Nora’s project) remains a reference but reflects another historiographical era (from national narrative to “deconstruction”).
• Some overlap in contributors and themes; different approaches and periodizations.

Notable anecdote:

• Pierre Nora declined to write the commemoration chapter, believing he “had already said everything…” (see [14:29]).

8. Historiographical and Editorial Choices: Inclusion, Balance, and “Roman national”

[21:43] and [28:30-30:48]

• The danger and evolving meaning of the term “roman national” (= national myth/narrative).
• Early use in the 19th century referred to genuine novels; today, it’s used more pejoratively for chauvinist, exclusionary narratives.
• Editorial vigilance to prevent partisanship or thematic imbalance; some contributors occasionally needed guidance to limit bias.

9. Diversity and Gender Representation

[31:06]

• 20 out of 100 contributors are women, a higher rate than in previous national histories.
• Emphasis: never before has so much attention been paid to the history of women within such a general history of France.

10. National Symbols and Political Appropriation

[38:08] Jacqueline Lalouette

• The tricolor and Marseillaise are sometimes associated with the right or far-right, but historically, they are also revolutionary and republican symbols.
  • “Il ne faudrait pas penser que le drapeau et la Marseillaise renvoient forcément à la droite...” [38:32]
• Examples: Jean-Luc Mélenchon and François Ruffin appropriating these symbols for the left.

11. The ideological Depth of “Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité”

[39:47-41:10]

• Christian roots and Enlightenment influences; debates over the order and meaning of the words, contested uses (e.g., exclusion of foreigners from fraternity).

12. Controversies Over Terminology

[42:43-43:47]

• Current feminist debates: “fraternité” (masculine) vs. “sororité” (feminine) vs. “adelphité” (neutral, from Greek).

13. The Marseillaise: Between Reverence and Parody

[47:50-50:10]

• The anthem’s significance to all political sides; it has been both venerated (by the Resistance and the left) and parodied (sketches with Pierre Desproges).
• Debate over its militaristic tone; musical adaptations to “adoucier” its effect.

14. Plural France, Plural Histories

[46:13] Éric Anceau

• France is multiple (“elle est une, mais elle est surtout multiple”).
• The Nouvelle Histoire de France tries to embrace this plurality, covering diverse identities and heritages, not just one story.

15. Limits, Gaps, and Reception

[51:04-52:40]

• Inevitably, some topics or figures are omitted.
• Reception: Mostly positive, called a “monument” and “ouvrage à avoir dans toutes les bibliothèques”.
• Book encourages “picorage” (dipping in thematically), not just linear reading.

16. Objectivity, Engagement, and the Historian’s Position

[53:44-56:14]

• Debate between striving for objectivity (“mise à distance”) vs. acknowledging one’s own engaged perspectives.
• Possible “troisième voie” (third way): Being a citizen, but putting aside personal convictions for scholarly rigor.

17. The Question of a “Common Narrative”

[56:14-56:31]

• Éric Anceau believes a common narrative is possible, but—being French—in practice, there will always be debate and pluralism:

  “Nous sommes français et nous aimons débattre, un peu gaulois, dirait un certain président. Et c’est très bien comme ça.” [56:19]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “On voit que les drapeaux, ce n’est pas seulement des bouts de tissu, mais porteurs de beaucoup de choses.”
  Jacqueline Lalouette, [04:31]

• “La Nation, c’est une représentation…très politique, qui permet aux élites de gouverner le peuple.”
  Éric Anceau, [11:40]

• “Faire de l’histoire, c’est aussi faire de la politique…mais la démarche scientifique permet d’avoir cette distance.”
  Xavier Mauduit, [29:46]

• “Il ne faudrait pas penser que le drapeau et la Marseillaise renvoient forcément à la droite et à l’extrême droite…”
  Jacqueline Lalouette, [38:32]

• “La France, elle est une, mais elle est surtout multiple. Et c’est ce qui fait, bien évidemment, notre richesse.”
  Éric Anceau, [46:13]

• “Un récit commun…je crois qu’il est possible, mais nous ne l’aurons pas. Nous sommes français et nous aimons débattre, un peu gaulois…Et c’est très bien comme ça.”
  Éric Anceau, [56:19]

Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Topic / Segment | |-----------|---------------------------------------------------| | 02:36 | Why a new History of France? (Anceau) | | 04:31 | Flag, anthem, and motto as living symbols | | 06:16 | History’s connection to current events | | 07:42 | Three constitutional flowers, meanings | | 11:40 | What is the Nation? | | 13:43 | Differences in historical approach (Gaulois/Francs)| | 14:29 | Dialogue with Pierre Nora; transmission of memory | | 21:43 | “Roman national”: history of the expression | | 31:06 | Gender and diversity among contributors | | 38:08 | Appropriation of national symbols, left vs. right | | 39:47 | Roots and debates on “Liberté, égalité, fraternité”| | 42:43 | Fraternité vs. Sororité vs. Adelphité | | 47:50 | Marseillaise: from Resistance to parody | | 51:04 | Reception and “monumentality” of the book | | 53:44 | Objectivity and engagement: historian’s position | | 56:14 | The elusive “common narrative” in France |

Tone & Language

The episode balances scholarly precision with playful, accessible moments (e.g., historical songs; comedic interludes by Pierre Desproges), mirroring the ambition of making history both serious and “ludique.” Both guests stress nuance, inclusivity, and the dynamic, debated nature of historical narratives in France, while reaffirming the need for rigorous scholarship and openness to differing perspectives.

Key Takeaways

• The new Histoire de France project is a plural, collaborative, and updated synthesis, deeply conscious of both past and present, and alert to historiographical debates.
• National symbols are living, contested, and evolving objects at the heart of French identity.
• “Roman national” is a problematic, politicized concept—authors deliberately avoid both nostalgic myth and deconstructive nihilism in favor of critical, inclusive history.
• French history, like French identity, is irreducibly diverse and plural, and the idea of a “common narrative” may be more aspiration than reality, but debate and reflection are essential to national life.
• Both the Nouvelle Histoire de France and Trois Fleurs de la Nation demonstrate that knowing and questioning one’s history offers tools to better understand—and perhaps pacify—contemporary social and political tensions.