Podcast Summary: "Écrire l'histoire de France, mode d'emploi : Mondiale et populaire, comment dépasser les frontières de l’histoire de France ?"
Le Cours de l'histoire, France Culture
Date: 8 octobre 2025
Host: Xavier Mauduit
Guests: Patrick Boucheron (professeur au Collège de France, coordinateur de L'Histoire mondiale de la France) & Gérard Noiriel (socio-historien, auteur de Le peuple français. Histoire et polémique)
Overview
This rich, reflective episode delves into how historians today reimagine and write the history of France in a context that's both global ("mondiale") and popular ("populaire"). Through the conversation between two of France's foremost contemporary historians, the show examines the challenges of surpassing national narratives, integrating diverse perspectives, and making history accessible and meaningful for all. The discussion asks: Can we write not only the history of a country, but of those who comprise it—its peoples, their movements, their stories, their contradictions? And what are the stakes of transmitting these complex narratives in a time of political tension and cultural change?
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Defining "France" and Its History (00:08–06:35)
- Question of Definition: The episode opens with the host framing the core question: Is "l'histoire de France" the story of a state, a territory, or its people? The word "France" is shown to be elusive, complex, and evolving.
- Patrick Boucheron’s Perspective: He clarifies his role as coordinator rather than sole author of L’Histoire mondiale de la France, highlighting the project's collective nature. Initially an Italianist, Boucheron admits his engagement came from concern over letting critical questions about French identity be monopolized by non-scholarly or politicized narratives:
« Il fallait que je travaille sur autre chose (…) laisser ces sujets-là, la question de l'identité (…) à des narrations qui pouvaient être entraînantes mais qui se délivraient au fond des règles de la méthode. » (03:08)
- Gérard Noiriel’s Approach: Noiriel shifts focus from "the history of France" to that "of the French people," arguing for an approach rooted in sociology and critical of identity politics, drawing from Norbert Elias:
« C’est du côté du populaire (…) une approche en termes de peuple, quels sont les individus, (…) comment des individus font société et donc font nation quelque part. » (04:05)
2. Nation, Populism, and the Historian's Role (05:28–07:59)
- Against Reactionary Uses: Both historians stress the importance of writing about the people "against populism" and about the nation "against nationalism", advocating a non-exclusive, open patriotism.
- Continuing Debates: The profession's collective response to "civic urgencies" is highlighted, as well as the productive tension between consensus and controversy in the field. Noiriel notes:
« Ce qui donne à la discipline historique une capacité de réaction collective (...) chaque génération, en fonction des enjeux civiques qui se posent à ce moment-là. » (07:59)
3. History for a Broad Audience: Methods and Accessibility (09:32–16:23)
- Pedagogy and Chronology: Boucheron explains the pedagogical choice of using key dates to structure narratives ("histoire par dates"), making history less intimidating and more accessible, while recognizing the inherent limitations and exclusions of event-based storytelling.
- Transmission Beyond Books: Noiriel insists on the need to multiply forms of intervention (podcasts, performances, etc.) in order to reach non-specialist and younger audiences, especially those who don’t see themselves in traditional historical narratives.
4. Global and Popular Histories: Examples and Models (18:36–22:52)
- Howard Zinn's Example: The episode draws parallels with Zinn’s A People’s History of the United States, discussing the difference between "people's history" and "popular history." Noiriel notes Zinn's optimism—in contrast to today's context—and insists on analyzing relations of power within "the people," including issues like class, gender and xenophobia.
« Je conçois le peuple au sens politique du terme (...) une relation de pouvoir avec ses dimensions de domination mais aussi de solidarité. » (21:06)
- Complexity Over Simplicity: Both guests underline that the historian’s task is to add complexity, not recite simplistic, linear stories.
« On ne cherche pas à convaincre, on cherche à déplacer, à déplacer le regard et à, au fond, troubler quelques certitudes. » (23:27, Boucheron)
5. Limitations and Challenges: Immigration, Public Perception, and Political Realities (24:44–29:15)
- Historiographical Achievements vs. Political Impact: Despite academic consensus on issues like immigration, there’s an acknowledged and troubling gap between scholarly knowledge and mainstream public or political discourse.
« Le savoir accumulé sur l’immigration et les mensonges qui sont véhiculés par le discours politique (...) il faut continuer. » (26:16, Boucheron)
- Seeking Broader Impact: Recognizing that academic work often “prêche convaincus”, Noiriel moves towards direct engagement with new publics via education and artistic collaboration.
6. History, Art, and Public Narratives (30:17–34:09)
- Art as Transmission: The episode features a reflection on the power of artistic and spectacular moments—citing Aya Nakamura’s participation in the Olympic opening ceremony as symbolizing a bold, inclusive vision of France and the role of spectacle in conveying history to the masses.
« La République c’était ça. C’était ceux qui protégeaient tous ces enfants. » (32:50, Boucheron)
7. Engaging the Public and the Limits of Opinion (39:22–42:26)
- Rise of “opinion” and Erosion of Debate: The guests lament the trend whereby historians are asked for "opinions" rather than expertise, and the erosion of common ground for rational debate.
« Cette notion d’opinion tend à s’imposer. (...) On peut être discrédité comme ça au nom de... que vous seriez (...) quelqu’un qui détruirait la France. » (40:04, Noiriel)
- Defense of Scientific Debate: Boucheron insists that democracy requires organizing serious, untainted public debate, and that defending history and science is defending the very basis of democracy.
8. Tradition, Renewal, and the Dialectic of Histories (42:26–51:59)
- Long Lineages: Michelet’s and Jaurès’ approaches to "history of the people" are reviewed as predecessors to current "histoires populaires" and "mondiales"—proving these are not just trendy imports but entrenched parts of French historiographical tradition.
- The Value of Transmission: Boucheron and Noiriel emphasize the importance of transmitting history to new generations, of repeated pedagogical engagement, and of adjusting methods and media to meet changing audiences ("le temps joue pour nous", 49:04).
« Il suffit de jeter un regard neuf sur une question ancienne pour la rajeunir. » (49:41, Boucheron)
- Generational Renewal: The discipline stays "eternally young" (citing Max Weber) through renewal of topics and perspectives.
9. Actualization and the Politics of the Present (52:29–56:25)
- Recent Events & New Challenges: The guests explain how new editions of their works respond to major societal events (MeToo, Gilets Jaunes, Covid, Ukraine war) that upend previous narratives and frameworks, as well as the return of nationalism and challenges to scientific authority.
« Il y a peut-être eu un certain optimisme par rapport à l’idée qu’on allait vers une société de plus en plus mondialisée... et donc du nationalisme qui est revenue en force, je dirais. » (54:59, Noiriel)
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
-
On Method and Engagement:
« Moi, je pense que tout ça vient, et on le fait effectivement différemment, mais avec le même souci de la narration. Parce que (...) la force d'entraînement, elle est dans le récit. » (28:08, Boucheron) -
On Pedagogy and Repetition:
« On redit toujours la même chose. C’est de la répétition pour nous, mais ce n’est pas de la répétition pour le public qui reçoit cela. » (51:37, Host) -
On Tradition and Renewal:
« L’histoire avait la chance d’être une discipline éternellement jeune parce qu’elle renouvelait ses objets et ses regards en fonction des transformations de la société. » (50:48, Noiriel paraphrasing Max Weber) -
On History’s Societal Impact:
« On ne cherche pas à convaincre, on cherche à déplacer, à déplacer le regard et à, au fond, troubler quelques certitudes. Voilà, je pense qu’on est plus modeste aujourd’hui. » (23:27, Boucheron) -
On the Purpose of Updating Historical Works:
« On n’a pas eu le cœur de laisser le livre vieillir avec nous en disant... il est daté (…) on s’est dit, il faut peupler cet entretemps. » (52:49, Boucheron)
Selected Timestamps for Key Segments
- 00:08: Introduction—What is the "history of France"?
- 03:44: The collective nature of modern history writing (Boucheron)
- 05:28: Writing "about the people against populism" (Boucheron)
- 09:32: The value/limits of consensus and controversy in public history (Noiriel)
- 12:53: Chronology and pedagogy as inclusive structures (Boucheron)
- 16:33: The surprise success and proliferation of "world histories" (Boucheron)
- 18:58: Howard Zinn’s methodology & what is “people’s history”? (Zinn/Noiriel)
- 24:44: Limits of scholarly impact on political discourse
- 30:25: Art and history—Aya Nakamura, Olympics, and public narratives
- 39:22: Erosion of reasoned debate in public space; the “opinion” problem
- 42:53: Reading Michelet: France as "pilot of the ship of humanity"
- 47:04: The unavoidably political and polemical nature of “the people”
- 49:04: The necessary repetition and renewal of history for each generation
- 52:49: The need for continual actualization in response to historic events
- 54:06: Covid, Ukraine, nationalism: recent ruptures and their significance
Final Notes
- The episode underscores the historian’s evolving role: not to offer definitive narratives, but to catalyze reflection, encourage complexity, and foster critical engagement with collective pasts.
- In a time marked by identity tensions and skepticism towards knowledge, the historians in conversation propose a humble, dialogic, and plural vision of history—open to the world, attentive to the people, and always ready to be retold.
- For listeners, it’s not only a masterclass in contemporary historiography but also a rally for public history and civic participation.