Podcast Summary: Le Cours de l'histoire
Episode: Fou d'histoire : Adélaïde de Clermont-Tonnerre, romancière – "La question de la femme sainte et de la femme maudite m'obsède"
Air Date: September 12, 2025
Host: Xavier Mauduit (France Culture)
Guest: Adélaïde de Clermont-Tonnerre, romancière
Episode Overview
This episode delves into how literature shapes our understanding of women's roles throughout history, focusing on Adélaïde de Clermont-Tonnerre's new novel, Je voulais vivre, which gives voice to Milady de Winter from Dumas's Les Trois Mousquetaires. The conversation revolves around the dichotomy of women in literature — the saint and the cursed — and how contemporary perspectives, especially post-MeToo, reshape interpretations of classic texts. The episode also examines the constraints of genre, the importance of historical accuracy in fiction, and the burden and inspiration of family legacy.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. The Literary “Trial” of Milady de Winter and Childhood Readings
- Opening dramatization: The episode begins with a dramatized reading of Milady’s trial from Les Trois Mousquetaires, highlighting the gendered lens imposed by male narrators (00:32–01:33).
- Adélaïde’s recollection: As a child, Clermont-Tonnerre read and reread Dumas obsessively, internalizing the dichotomy of the “good” Constance and the “evil” Milady, without questioning the fairness or justice of Milady’s treatment (03:31).
- Quote:
"Petite fille… je veux être Constance, la compagne de d'Artagnan… Milady me paraît une épouvantable criminelle. Donc par un instant, je trouve que le sort qu'on lui fait subir pose problème. Ça passe comme une lettre à la poste."
— Adélaïde de Clermont-Tonnerre (03:31)
2. Rethinking Milady: From Villain to Complex Character
- Shift in perception: Only with maturity and the context of movements like MeToo did Adélaïde re-examine Milady’s vilification, especially after hearing "cette perverse qui a quinze ans à peine a détourné un prêtre", questioning the narrative’s perspective on age and consent (06:00).
- “Il faut que je raconte son histoire. Ce n'est pas parce que c'est un personnage de fiction qu'au fond, elle ne peut pas réclamer justice.” (06:54)
- Modern context: The host and guest discuss how re-reading classics in our current society exposes underlying dominations not previously seen (07:00).
3. The Dichotomy of Women in Literature
- The "pure" versus the "cursed": The episode explores how literature, including Dumas, often limits female characters to simplistic archetypes — the virtuous Constance and the damned Milady — and how Adélaïde seeks to enrich and complicate these portraits (08:49).
- Literary playfulness: Adélaïde describes the joy of reinterpreting canonical works and “playing” with silences and blanks left by Dumas, joining the lineage of writers as a "showrunner" of the narrative (10:02–11:25).
4. Feminine Solitude and Literary Injustice
- Masculine gaze: Adélaïde underscores that Milady’s story is written by men, for men, and her execution represents arguably the greatest literary feminicide in French fiction (11:45).
- Historical archive: Incorporating archives like Jean Thibodeau’s 1970 critique offers a historical precedent to re-reading Milady not as a villain, but as a victim of male power (13:19).
- Quote:
« C'est quand même le plus grand féminicide de la littérature française. Et nous ne l'avons pas vu. »
— Adélaïde de Clermont-Tonnerre (11:45)
5. Contextualizing the Roman Historique
- Genre boundaries: The guest challenges the perceived inferiority of the historical novel, championing the genre’s capacity to animate the past and evoke all facets of human experience (17:00).
- “Je lutte toujours un peu contre cette idée, cette typologie des genres... je trouve que l'exigence littéraire et le plaisir de lecture doivent primer avant tout.” (17:00)
- Research and authenticity: Writing Je voulais vivre required rigorous historical research – from clothing fabrics to period-appropriate food and social mores (18:31).
6. Narrative Structure and Multiplicity of Perspectives
- Non-linear narration: The novel is structured with shifting timelines and viewpoints, including d’Artagnan reflecting on his actions in old age, introducing male vulnerability and transformation (20:07).
- Exploring sexuality and identity: Historical figures like Buckingham are reimagined with greater fidelity to historical records (including his homosexual relationship with James I), opening up discussions about fluidity and social normativity in earlier centuries (20:07).
7. Personal and Historical Legacy
- Family heritage: Adélaïde reflects on her mixed feelings towards her aristocratic lineage, learning about family members’ roles only recently, and struggling with the male-centric nature of historical transmission (39:13–43:00).
- Family motto:
“Quand même tous, moi non” (“Even if all would renounce you, I would not” —42:04)
- Family motto:
- Transmission and visibility: The erasure of female names and legacies in both literature and family prompts her to forge her own story (43:00).
8. The Illusion (and Value) of Historical Chronology
- History versus lived experience: While trained as a historian, Clermont-Tonnerre asserts her preference for incarnated, character-driven history that draws readers in (36:39).
- Quote:
"On a longtemps méprisé une histoire des personnages. Or moi… j'aime suivre des personnes, j'aime suivre des grandes femmes et des grands hommes… Dumas donne de la chair à l'histoire, il donne une voix à l'histoire…"
— Adélaïde de Clermont-Tonnerre (36:39)
9. Women’s Place: Domination, Solidarity, and Legitimacy
- Internalized illegitimacy: Adélaïde describes the subtle, inherited belief that women should not be artists or writers, despite a family library full of male authors; she now encourages other young women to assert themselves (30:37).
- Solidarity and sorority: The episode concludes with a reflection on women’s solidarity, ongoing struggles worldwide for women’s rights, and the importance of remembering that progress is not universal (53:13–54:17).
- Quote:
"Cette question de la femme sainte et de la femme maudite m'obsède, c'est vrai."
— Adélaïde de Clermont-Tonnerre (29:28)
10. The Craft and Joy of Writing
- Writing as manual labor: Echoing Colette, Adélaïde shares the daily, disciplined work and the intense yet joyous labor that goes into creating a novel (47:58).
- “On écrit comme on va à la mine. Il y a quelque chose d'artisanal, de laborieux et en même temps quelque chose d'extraordinairement joyeux.” (47:58)
11. Heritage and Point de Vue
- Directorship: As director of Point de Vue, she details its history — born of the Resistance — and the complex French fascination with aristocracy, suggesting a need for collective reconciliation with history (49:58–52:48).
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
-
On Milady’s trial:
“C’est quand même le plus grand féminicide de la littérature française. Et nous ne l’avons pas vu.”
— Adélaïde de Clermont-Tonnerre (11:45) -
On writing and genre:
“Je lutte toujours un peu contre cette idée… le roman historique fait peur et pourtant, quel merveilleux terreau !”
— Adélaïde de Clermont-Tonnerre (17:00) -
On gendered transmission:
“La transmission se fait par les hommes, transmission de la connaissance, du nom… Le nom de naissance est effacé.”
— Xavier Mauduit (43:00) -
On internalized illegitimacy:
“Il y avait une immense bibliothèque… mais il y avait très peu d’auteurs féminins. Je lutte contre ce sentiment d’illégitimité…”
— Adélaïde de Clermont-Tonnerre (30:37) -
On the "mark" of Milady:
“Cette fleur de lys sur l’épaule… c’est la condamnation féminine et on ne peut pas s’en sortir. Cette marque ne peut pas s’effacer.”
— Xavier Mauduit (33:59) -
On solidarity:
“J’ai dédié ce livre à toutes les femmes qui nous ont précédées, à tous les hommes qui les ont défendues et aimées.”
— Adélaïde de Clermont-Tonnerre (53:13)
Timestamps for Important Segments
- 00:32–01:33: Dramatization of Milady’s trial
- 03:31: Childhood reading of Dumas; early perceptions of female characters
- 06:00–07:00: Re-reading Dumas in light of MeToo; question of consent and narrative bias
- 10:02–11:25: The pleasure and method of rewriting Milady’s story
- 13:19: Archive of Jean Thibodeau critiquing bourgeois literary violence
- 17:00: Defense and merits of the roman historique genre
- 20:07: Novel structure; bringing multiple perspectives and fluid identities
- 30:37: Personal history of internalized illegitimacy as a female writer
- 33:59: On the indelible social condemnation of the "marked" woman
- 36:39: Perspectives on history: characters vs. movements
- 42:04: Family motto and issues of gendered transmission
- 47:58: On the hard work and joy of writing
- 53:13–54:17: Dedication to preceding women and the importance of sorority/solidarity
Additional Highlights
- Family and autofiction: Despite the rise of family memoirs in French literature, Adélaïde prefers imaginative fiction, echoing Romain Gary: "la botte du réel a écrasé les écrivains" (45:55).
- Consent in history: A concluding segment (55:40+) reflects on consent from the 12th century to today, showing the historical depth of issues that are often thought of as modern.
Conclusion
This episode of Le Cours de l’histoire offers a rich, critical, and personal exploration of how women’s stories are told and retold, and how expanding our perspective on classic literature — and on our own families — can illuminate the persistent struggles and evolving solidarities of women across centuries. It is an invitation to read, question, and imagine differently, with both rigor and pleasure.