Podcast Summary

Podcast: Le Cours de l'histoire – France Culture
Episode: Portraits de familles 4/4 : Histoire d’une famille ordinaire, enquête généalogique
Date: April 24, 2025
Host: [Unnamed Interviewer]
Guest: Emma Rothschild, historienne

Overview

This episode features historian Emma Rothschild discussing her recent book De proche en proche. Une famille ordinaire dans l’histoire de France (An Infinite History), which meticulously traces the genealogy and social history of a seemingly “ordinary” French family from the 18th to the early 20th century. The conversation explores her historical methods, the discovery and exploitation of archival sources, the challenge and fascination of reconstructing obscured lives, and how micro-history offers new perspectives on society, economy, gender, and memory.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Genesis of the Project and the Allure of Archives

• Emma Rothschild began her project by chance, after stumbling upon two notarial acts in the Charente departmental archives that captured her attention:
  • A power of attorney granted to Marie-Emmar, trying to resolve affairs after her husband disappeared to the Antilles.
  • A marriage contract with an unusually large number (93!) of signatories, revealing rich social networks.
  • Quote: “Je me disais, mais qu’est-ce que c’est que cette famille avec tant de sociabilité? Et tout a commencé par là.” (Emma Rothschild, 01:40)
• The digitalization of archival material has drastically changed the accessibility and scope of historical research. Parish records, marriage, and death certificates are widely accessible online, but notarial and judicial documents still require travel and manual consultation.
  • Quote: “Les archives s’ouvrent à 10 heures, elles ferment à 12 heures… la possibilité de prendre des milliers de photos, ça a vraiment changé les conditions de recherche pour les historiens.” (Emma Rothschild, 14:46)

2. Methodology: Micro-history and Going “De Proche en Proche”

• The study moves from individuals to communities over five generations, showing how small micro-histories can reveal macro-structural shifts.
• Rothschild’s approach draws on the tradition of micro-history, especially influenced by Carlo Ginzburg and Carlo Poni.
  • Quote: “Le papier de Carlo Ginzburg... donne la possibilité de ne pas être obligé de choisir entre le micro et le macro... entre la vie des individus et la vie des sociétés.” (Emma Rothschild, 41:56)
• Instead of focusing only on descendants or notable figures, Rothschild casts a wide net: tantes célibataires, voisins, métiers invisibilisés.
  • “J’ai voulu beaucoup insister sur ça, que ce n’étaient pas les femmes qui ont eu une descendance qui sont des sujets d’histoire, des personnalités intéressantes.” (Emma Rothschild, 48:29)

3. Story of Marie-Emmar and Her Descendants

• The core figure is Marie-Emmar, an illiterate but inquisitive woman living in Angoulême during a time of intense social and political change. Her husband disappeared to the Antilles, supposedly making a small fortune in the slave economies of Grenada and Martinique, but little is verifiably known.
  • Quote: “Les documents racontent en effet des rumeurs. Je ne sais pas si cette fortune a existé dans l’île de la Grenade.” (Emma Rothschild, 07:30)
• The family’s history weaves through artisans, bourgeois, and the destitute over five generations, reflecting mobility both upward and downward.
  • Notable descendants include the prominent Cardinal Lavigerie, a missionary in Africa, and others who became Parisian bankers or struggled as laundresses.

4. Social, Economic & Political Context

• The French Revolution appears not as a distant, Parisian event but as a force reshaping real lives in the provinces. For Marie-Emmar’s descendants, the Revolution brought both challenges (e.g., career shifts due to institutional changes) and opportunities (e.g., five unmarried sisters opening a school for girls in nationalized property).
  • Quote: “La Révolution française a tout changé pour cette famille. Mais la Révolution de 48 a pas mal changé pour eux aussi. Un des descendants est devenu banquier...” (Emma Rothschild, 51:41)
• Economic activity and shifting gender roles become visible: Rothschild emphasizes the importance of “services publics” (public services), women’s work, and the patchy archive of these labors.
• Urban transformation and local dynamics—in Angoulême, the setting is not a backdrop but an active player, embodying both continuity and rupture.
  • Quote: “Congoulême aujourd’hui, toujours, c’est une ville merveilleuse, une des plus belles de la France.” (Emma Rothschild, 55:27)

5. Memory, Généalogie, and Public History

• Rothschild points out how genealogy, now popularized and democratized by online tools and amateur practice, provides new insights and connection to the past, but must include not only ancestors but also the “invisibilized” such as unmarried aunts or neighbors.
  • Quote: “J’essayais de concevoir la famille de Marie-Emma comme des gens comme nous qui s’intéressent aux informations... Les enfants posaient des questions à leurs grands-parents en disant, mais qu’est-ce qui se passait?” (Emma Rothschild, 26:46)
• She encourages students and listeners to ask their older relatives about their economic lives—not just mothers but grandmothers.
  • Memorable moment: “En vacances, je vais poser des questions à ma grand-mère pour savoir quelle était sa vie économique à elle il y a 50 ans.” (Emma Rothschild, 32:41)

6. Literature & Social Imagination

• The family’s history echoes and intersects with broader cultural narratives—from Zola’s multigenerational sagas to Balzac’s Illusions Perdues set in Angoulême. The structures of fate, luck, class, and city play out both in real and fictional lives.
  • Quote: “Il a un côté extrêmement Zolaesque dans les destins des descendants qui se trouvaient à Paris vers la fin du 19e siècle.” (Emma Rothschild, 38:25)
• Literary references (e.g., Chekhov, “la dame au petit chien”) underscore the narrative dimension and the shared textures of lived experience and fiction.
  • Memorable moment: The archival discovery of a theft involving Eliza Sterne, daughter of Laurence Sterne, in Angoulême, providing a “micro-récit” in the Chekhovian tradition. (44:57)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Method:
  • “Le nom du livre en français, De Proche en Proche renvoie à cette idée... de contiguïté... famille, enfants, mari, voisins, signataires.” (Emma Rothschild, 05:21)
• On Female Agency & Visibility:
  • “Ce n’est pas uniquement question des femmes, mais aussi de replacer les femmes célibataires, ces tantes non mariées avec leur vie compliquée, intéressante, réussie.” (Emma Rothschild, 48:29)
• On Social Mobility:
  • “Il y a des descendantes qui ont vécu vraiment dans la misère à Paris et aussi des figures de grande importance dans l’histoire de la France.” (Emma Rothschild, 19:19)
• On the Meaning of Ordinary:
  • “Même les familles ordinaires... aucune famille n’est ordinaire...” (Emma Rothschild, 10:59)
• On the Value of Genealogy:
  • “C’était aussi une grande différence avec la recherche historique à l’époque du grand livre d’Alain Corbin... Si je pouvais un peu donner le goût de chercher davantage dans l’ascendance des personnes vivantes...” (Emma Rothschild, 26:46)
• On Historical Perspective:
  • “Je n’ai pas voulu être obligé de choisir entre le micro et le macro... entre l’histoire économique, l’histoire politique, l’histoire sociale, l’histoire des individus.” (Emma Rothschild, 51:41)

Important Timestamps

• 00:38 – Emma Rothschild introduces her book and outlines the scope of her project.
• 01:40 – How her research began, with discoveries in the Charente archives.
• 07:30 – Discussion of the unreliable firsthand sources and rumors in archives.
• 14:18 – Alain Corbin’s philosophy on biographical reconstruction of “invisible” individuals.
• 17:08 – Rothschild reflects on her aims: storytelling, inspiring new research, and examining economic sectors.
• 23:03 – Studying the Revolution from a provincial, everyday perspective.
• 26:33 – Decision of where to end the book, “Une histoire infinie.”
• 32:41 – Teaching about economic lives and prompting students to question their grandparents.
• 38:25 – Zolaesque destinies and dramatic class divergence within the family.
• 41:56 – Citing Ginzburg and Poni on microhistory as methodological inspiration.
• 48:29 – Centering women’s stories and insisting on non-descendant female agency.
• 51:41 – Intertwining social, political, and economic history in family narratives.
• 55:27 – The geography and urban evolution of Angoulême as a living context for social history.

Tone and Style

The conversation is warm, reflective, and at times playful and nostalgic, balancing scholarly rigor with accessible storytelling. Archival anecdotes, literary allusions, and references to family lore humanize the analytical discourse, weaving a rich tapestry that bridges past and present, scholarly and personal curiosity.

Conclusion & Takeaways

Emma Rothschild’s work, as discussed in this episode, exemplifies a new depth and inclusivity in historical inquiry—where ordinary lives, marginal actors (especially women and the economically precarious), and everyday social bonds become crucial to understanding the long arc of social change. The methods, enabled by digital archives and inspired by micro-history, offer listeners and future researchers an invitation to reimagine what matters in the study of the past and how it connects, generation by generation, to their own stories.