"40% of Your Ad Budget Goes to Products Nobody Buys": The AI Solution Retailers Can't Ignore

Summary

Podcast Summary: Lead With AI Episode: "40% of Your Ad Budget Goes to Products Nobody Buys": The AI Solution Retailers Can't Ignore
Host: Dr. Tamara Nall
Guest: Nathan Wurst, Founder of Shoptimize
Release Date: May 27, 2025

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Introduction

In this insightful episode of Lead With AI, Dr. Tamara Nall welcomes Nathan Wurst, the visionary founder of Shoptimize, to discuss how artificial intelligence is revolutionizing e-commerce advertising. With a mission to eliminate inefficiencies in ad spending, Nathan shares how Shoptimize leverages advanced neural networks to ensure retailers maximize their marketing budgets and drive smarter growth.

Guest Background: Nathan Wurst

Nathan introduces himself as a dedicated problem solver with a passion for connecting the dots to find effective solutions. With a background in data science at a marketing agency, Nathan identified a significant gap in product marketing for large retailers like Dick's Sporting Goods and Farfetch. This realization led him to establish Shoptimize over a year and a half ago, aiming to address the widespread issue of wasted advertising spend on non-performing products.

[02:01] Nathan Wurst: "At my core, I'm a problem solver. I like solving all kinds of problems, whether it's puzzles, crosswords, or business cases. With AI, I enjoy the moment where all the dots connect to provide a solution that's been eluding us."

Shoptimize's Mission and Operations

Shoptimize was founded to tackle the inefficiencies Nathan observed in product advertising. The company's primary focus is on identifying and eliminating wasteful ad spend by analyzing vast amounts of data to determine which products truly drive purchases. Nathan explains that their AI systems meticulously analyze hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of variables—including product descriptions, keywords, and metadata—to predict the optimal products to advertise.

[06:47] Nathan Wurst: "We look at hundreds of thousands, if not millions of variables... you can draw conclusions and patterns that a human can never make on their own."

The Jaw-Dropping Impact: Revealing Ad Spend Waste

One of the most striking revelations for Shoptimize’s clients is the significant portion of their ad budgets being wasted. Nathan emphasizes that up to 40% of ad spend can be directed toward products that neither generate clicks nor drive purchases. This reality is often more severe than clients initially perceive.

[04:44] Nathan Wurst: "40% of their spend goes to products that didn't even drive those sorts of purchases. It's an even bigger problem than people think initially."

This revelation not only highlights the inefficiency but also underscores the critical need for AI-driven solutions in retail advertising.

Under the Hood: How Shoptimize Works

Shoptimize's AI capabilities hinge on advanced pattern recognition and neural networks. By processing vast datasets, the AI identifies trends and patterns that are imperceptible to humans, enabling precise decision-making in ad placements. Nathan shares an impressive achievement where their AI model predicted product purchases with 92.3% accuracy during testing.

[10:24] Nathan Wurst: "We could predict whether a product is going to get purchased in a given time period with 92.3% accuracy. That was just the most mind-blowing thing to me."

Client Requirements and Suitable Use Cases

Shoptimize caters to a broad spectrum of clients, from solopreneurs to large enterprises. However, the effectiveness of their AI models depends on the availability of substantial data. Typically, a minimum catalog of 100 SKUs is required to train their neural networks effectively. Additionally, higher-priced products ($100 to $1,000) tend to yield better optimization results compared to lower-priced items.

[07:10] Nathan Wurst: "We want to see a lot of data to train very complex neural networks... generally, we require a catalog of at least 100 SKUs."

Ethical Considerations in AI Marketing

Nathan addresses the ethical dimensions of using AI in marketing, emphasizing the importance of anonymized data to protect consumer privacy. He also highlights his commitment to ethical business practices by refusing to work with companies whose values do not align with his own.

[12:55] Nathan Wurst: "We work with totally anonymized data... there are certain companies that I just won't work with if I don't feel good about what that business is doing."

This stance ensures that Shoptimize not only delivers effective solutions but also contributes positively to the broader societal impact of AI.

Future Vision: Enhancing the Shopping Experience

Looking ahead to 2030, Nathan envisions a seamless shopping experience where AI-driven recommendations benefit both retailers and consumers. By eliminating irrelevant ads, shoppers can find exactly what they’re looking for with minimal effort, enhancing overall satisfaction and efficiency in the purchasing process.

[14:53] Nathan Wurst: "We're striving to improve the shopping experience for people and make that seamless... it's about improving the whole flow for all parties involved."

Rapid Fire Segment

In the rapid fire segment, Nathan shares his opinions on current AI trends and future breakthroughs:

• Most Overrated Tech Trend: Nathan believes that while Large Language Models (LLMs) like ChatGPT are impressive, their proliferation in unrelated applications is overrated and unsustainable.

  [21:24] Nathan Wurst: "LLMs have amazing capability, but companies trying to create new products just by adding an LLM are vastly overrated."

• Most Underhyped AI Breakthrough: He points to AI's advancements in protein recognition and folding, a monumental breakthrough in biology and medicine that remains underappreciated outside specialized circles.

  [22:02] Nathan Wurst: "AI's ability to recognize proteins and understand their folding... this is a monumental breakthrough for biology and medicine."

• Bold AI Prediction: Nathan forecasts that within the next 15 to 20 years, AI will be able to create a perfect March Madness bracket, outperforming human predictions through advanced algorithms.

  [24:08] Nathan Wurst: "Within the next 15 to 20 years, we will get a perfect March Madness bracket, built by AI."

Call to Action: Engage with Shoptimize

Dr. Nall urges listeners to explore Shoptimize’s impact by conducting a simple test: search for a generic product and assess the saturation of ads. This exercise demonstrates the extent of wasted ad spend and highlights the potential benefits of adopting Shoptimize's solutions.

[20:21] Nathan Wurst: "Go and Google one of the products you sell that's not in season... reach out to Shoptimize so they can help you."

Nathan provides multiple avenues for interested parties to connect, including LinkedIn and their official website, ensuring accessibility for businesses eager to optimize their ad strategies.

Conclusion

The conversation wraps up with mutual appreciation between Dr. Tamara Nall and Nathan Wurst. Nathan emphasizes his excitement about the future of AI in retail advertising and encourages listeners to take proactive steps in optimizing their ad spend with Shoptimize.

[28:09] Nathan Wurst: "Thank you for having me. It's been a blast to talk about AI and Shoptimize."

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This episode of Lead With AI offers a compelling glimpse into the transformative power of AI in e-commerce advertising. Nathan Wurst’s expertise and Shoptimize’s innovative approach provide valuable insights for retailers looking to enhance their marketing efficiency and drive meaningful growth.

Transcript

[Dr. Tamara Nall]

What if every marketing decision was backed by real time data, every dollar spent was maximized, and your campaigns evolved without you lifting a finger? Today on Lead with AI, we're joined by Nathan Wurst, founder of shoptimized, a company that's reimagining e commerce advertising through powerful custom built AI to the tune of neural networks. With shoptimize, he's helping retailers unlock the full potential of their product ads using AI that knows exactly what to push, when to push, and why to push, thus driving efficiency, revenue, and smarter growth. Want to look at what's actually working at the cutting edge of retail media? You're in the right place. Let's get started. Welcome to lead with AI. I'm Dr. Tamara Nall. In each episode, we will take you behind the scenes with visionary leaders shaping the future of AI across public and private sectors. Join us as we explore groundbreaking projects and innovations that are transforming industries and many making a real impact on people's lives. Let's dive in. Well, hello, everyone. How are you? My name is Dr. Tam Renault. I'm your host with the Lead with AI podcast. And I am so excited to have Nathan Wurst from Shop Demise AI. Hi, Nathan, how are you?

[Nathan Wurst]

I'm doing great, thanks. How about yourself?

[Dr. Tamara Nall]

I'm amazing. And thank you so much for being an illuminarian guest on our podcast today.

[Nathan Wurst]

Thank you for having me.

[Dr. Tamara Nall]

Absolutely. So let's start off, just tell us a little bit about you. Who are you at your core? You know, I believe that every great AI product starts with a deeper vision. So talk to us about that.

[Nathan Wurst]

Yeah, I think, you know, at my core, really, I'm a problem solver. I always have been. You know, I like solving all kinds of problems, whether it's, you know, puzzles or crosswords or, you know, business cases. With AI, you know, I really just like that little moment where you see all the dots connect and where you get a solution to this thing that's been bothering you for a while.

[Dr. Tamara Nall]

Got it, Got it. So tell us about shoptimized.

[Nathan Wurst]

Yeah. So shoptimize really started, you know, a little over a year and a half ago at this point. I've been doing this Since October of 2023, and prior to that, I was working as a data scientist at a marketing agency. And I knew I kind of wanted to start my own company. I wasn't exactly sure the direction I wanted to go, but I'd been working with some pretty big retailers. Dick's Sporting Goods, Farfetch. And I'd found that there was Some room for improvement in their product marketing. And as I went off and founded Shop Demise and started doing my own thing, I saw that this was kind of a pattern that was repeating across a bunch of different retailers. And you know, that pattern was that they were wasting tons and tons of money advertising products that weren't driving any purchases.

[Dr. Tamara Nall]

Well, and you know what, I love that because as an entrepreneur myself, people come and they say, oh, I want to start a business, I don't know how. And it's about gaps and pain points. And a lot of great ideas come when you go and work for other companies and you can kind of see where those gaps are. And then creature on. That's amazing. So what about the holy smokes moment? What's the jaw dropping moment when people first experience shoptimize and realize that it changes everything for them?

[Nathan Wurst]

Yeah, to be honest, I think it comes even before they really get to experience shoptimize. The biggest sort of jaw dropping moment for, for most of my clients so far has been when we actually show them how much money they're wasting. And so, you know, we can go in, we pull their, their ads data and we say, okay, here's all the money that you spent in the past month or whatever, here's all the money that went to, that actually drove purchases, and here's what you spent advertising products that didn't drive any purchases. And you know, with the bigger clients, this can be millions of dollars. And so you have this sort of this jaw drop moment where people see, oh my God, like these, these algorithms that we've just been trusting blindly are actually, aren't working as well for us as we thought they were.

[Dr. Tamara Nall]

Wow. Wow. So you're saying that you will show customers, okay, you spent this money and they'll be, you know, I don't know, 40% of their spend to products that never even moved.

[Nathan Wurst]

Exactly. Yeah. And not even, not even products that never even moved. Products that never drove a purchase on the website. So, so that includes products where like, you know, someone might see an ad for a product, they'll click on it and then they'll click on a different product on the website. They'll see something else in that, like you may also like, section and they'll buy that. So it's not, it's 40% on products that didn't even drive those sort of purchases. So it's, it's really, it's an even, an even bigger problem than people think initially.

[Dr. Tamara Nall]

Yeah. Can you imagine if you can decrease and it sounds like y' all are the number of clicks. Like I don't have to click 2, 3 times to get to what I want. I can click one time and it's right there.

[Nathan Wurst]

Yeah, it's something that we've been working on in the background. Keep it tuned for Q3, 20, 25.

[Dr. Tamara Nall]

Yep, yep. No, I understand that. So let's break it up. If the brain of shoptimize. So if I were to actually go up under the hood, what's going on, what's working there?

[Nathan Wurst]

Yeah, I think it's on the most simple level it's about pattern recognition. So if you were to like become shoptimized all of a sudden, all of a sudden you would be able to have the most amazing pattern recognition for retail products and the most in depth knowledge about their how that the patterns that you see impact marketing behavior. So we look at hundreds of thousands if not millions of variables. You know, all, all the like descriptions, the keywords, the metadata of these products and how the time that they're advertised impacts whether or not they drive purchases. And so as shoptimized you would be able to see, wow, like you know, blue stuff on Sundays at 3pm is like much better at driving purchases but like, you know, red is, you know, out the window. And so you'd be able to draw these conclusions and these patterns that you know, a human can never make on their own.

[Dr. Tamara Nall]

Right, right, absolutely, absolutely. And just so that I'm clear, your customers are, it doesn't matter what size, whether I'm a solopreneur that's selling a product all the way up to a large or what's that sweet spot. And that's number one. And then number two, you must be selling something physical. Like it has to be something physical. Correct. Can you just talk a little bit more about that for our listeners?

[Nathan Wurst]

Yeah, absolutely. You know, we have worked with solopreneurs in the past, definitely, you know, still, still open to it. I think one of the, the main things is that we want to really see a lot of data. You know, we're training very complex neural networks and so you know, to, in order to really maximize our impact, we want to see a bunch of products and a bunch of data points that we can really use to make your ad spend as efficient as possible. So there's no real limit on like the company size, but we generally do want to see like catalog of products that at least has like you know, 100 SKUs, I'd say.

[Dr. Tamara Nall]

Okay, got it. That's very, very helpful. So the minimum is where you can, because again, like you said, like the, the, the model itself needs a lot of data, right?

[Nathan Wurst]

Yeah.

[Dr. Tamara Nall]

So 100 SKUs. Is there a certain amount of time you need to have been in business? Do you have to have sold like, what If I have 100 SKUs and I've been in business for a year and I haven't sold as much because I'm not doing as well paying to us, like the perfect customer.

[Nathan Wurst]

Yeah. You know, a year is a, is a fine amount of data to have. Obviously, the more the better. You know, the sort of, the sort of dream clients would be, you know, like the lvmhs, the.

[Dr. Tamara Nall]

Okay.

[Nathan Wurst]

You know, the Macy's of the world, the Home Depot is, you know, anywhere where there is a, a huge amount of products and a huge amount of data is really the best place for us to be. And also, you know, to an extent, we do try and work with like slightly more expensive products just because there is a kind of a, a lower limit on the cost per click that you see on like a Google or a meta. So with Google, for example, you know, you usually see clicks in like the, the 1 to $3 range and really that's like about as low as you can go. You know, there, there are exceptions to that, of course.

[Dr. Tamara Nall]

Right.

[Nathan Wurst]

But if you're, if you're doing like a national campaign, you know, large scale, like that's, that's about the limit. And so if you're only selling stuff that's like four or five dollars, you know, we worked for some, some CPG brands, you know, like food and beverage. It kind of limits how much you can actually get out of that. Where we see a ton of potential is with products that are $100, $1,000. That makes a huge difference because when you're optimizing those, you can see really incredible returns.

[Dr. Tamara Nall]

Right. And it's very, very important to be very clear about who your target audience is. And so that's important for our listeners to know from shop to minds. And we have a number, we have thousands of listeners and many of them work in marketing departments of these larger companies. They work in project management for larger companies. And so this would be ideal for them. So make sure you definitely find your way to shoptimize and we'll get to how to do that a little bit later. So awesome. Thank you for that.

[Nathan Wurst]

Of course.

[Dr. Tamara Nall]

Now talk to us about a phenomenal result that you got from a customer in terms of numbers or in terms of impact that was so unreal that it even amazed you.

[Nathan Wurst]

Yeah. I think, you know, we've delivered some pretty, pretty great returns for customers along the way. And it's going to sound a little silly, but I always kind of knew that that was like within the realm of possibility, you know, like, you know that like you, you see the room for improvement and you know, like, oh, you know, we've improved return on as spend by like as much as 32% in some cases. And you know, you see that and you're like, great. That's pretty cool. What really blew my mind was actually the first iteration of the neural network that we built for shoptimized where we were looking at all this historical data and it was just a test. We were just doing a breakdown of the training and testing data and when we got to the point where we were working with the testing data, we could predict, I think it was 92.3% accuracy whether or not a product will be purchased in a given time period. So we had our confusion matrix, our false positives, false negatives, true positives, true negatives. And you watch the, it's really cool. You can see it in your terminal on your screen. You can see it go through with the testing and the count of all these things go up and down and you start to see like the accuracy go up and up and up over time and you go, oh my God, like we're, we're actually doing this, you know. And so you get to the end of that test and it says, you know, 92.3% accuracy. You've predicted whether or not a product is going to get purchased in this time period. And that was just the most mind blowing thing to me because I can't imagine being able to do that in my life at all. Like if you gave me, you know, I, like, I couldn't predict like the weather tomorrow. You know, like to predict whether some random product is going to get purchased based on marketing is just absolutely insane to me.

[Dr. Tamara Nall]

That is. And I could definitely hear the data scientist in you because I too am a data scientist and I like, you know, in school at George Washington, learn about random forests and neural networks, et cetera. So it's really exciting. Like we're geeking out over here, so that's amazing. Congratulations on that.

[Nathan Wurst]

Thank you. Yeah, I appreciate it.

[Dr. Tamara Nall]

That is amazing. So, you know, with AI, there's always this topic around ethics because I mean, you're dealing with powerful, powerful, powerful tools and all this data. What are the ethical lines that you're watching and how do you, you know, make sure you don't cross that boundary and at the same time keep the human in the loop.

[Nathan Wurst]

Yeah, it's a, it's a great question. And it is one that keeps me up at night for sure. You know, there, there are times where I think like, oh, this would be such a great idea. And then I think about it more and I'm like, actually, like, this would be terrible. And you know, I think for, for me, you know, we work with totally anonymized data. Right. So we, we don't have any sort of like, you know, any sort of like, personalized info that is, that could be causing potential problems. And so the actual building of the models and activation of our models feels pretty ethical to me. Some people who have different opinions on marketing may disagree, but that's. Personally, I don't make an impact on who our stuff gets shown to. With that being said, there are certain companies that I just won't work with. There are industries or specific companies where if I don't feel good about what that business is doing.

[Dr. Tamara Nall]

Mm.

[Nathan Wurst]

I'm not going to help you improve your marketing and get your message out there and improve your, your return on ad spend, you know, that they're for. So for me, it's a very kind of personal line and it has less to do with AI and more about the, the ethics of the companies that I'm working with.

[Dr. Tamara Nall]

Yeah. And the impact on humanity. Absolutely. And I think as leaders, we do have to keep that in the forefront. Like the fact that you're so brilliant and you come up with these different ideas, but then you put it through a filter or, or at gate of. No, I can't do that. Yeah, it's amazing. And that says a lot about your leadership as well as you taking a stand about, you know, those customers that you'll take on versus not because I tell people not all money is good money.

[Nathan Wurst]

No.

[Dr. Tamara Nall]

And you have to keep that at the forefront. So that's, that's amazing. And we have to make sure that we support shoptimize just based on that.

[Nathan Wurst]

Thank you. Appreciate it.

[Dr. Tamara Nall]

Yes. So let's Fast forward to 2030. What is the future powered by Shoptimize look like and how will that impact the everyday person?

[Nathan Wurst]

Yeah, I think really, you know, what we're, what we're striving for is really to improve the shopping experience for people and to really make that seamless. You know, when we talk about, like, you know, people being shown products that they're not purchasing, that's not good for the searcher either. You know, like sometimes yeah, you're just kind of exploring. But, like, most of the time when you're searching for something, you're clicking on something, like you're actually kind of interested in it. And so I think for us, it's not just about, you know, improving the future for retailers and improving their return on ad spend. It's also about improving the purchase process for shoppers and to make this experience better for them as they find what they're looking for.

[Dr. Tamara Nall]

Right. And, you know, I've actually experienced something that just really, really gets on my nerves. That's when I'm on Facebook, I'm on Instagram, and there is a picture of an outfit or something I love. I click on it and it goes absolutely nowhere or it goes to something else that I'm not interested in, or I don't like the color. That is so annoying. And I will have. In the beginning, I used to take a little time and do a little search or try to go back and find it. I've even sent out emails or chatted with them, and some. In some cases, they can't even find it. It's very bizarre to use a picture of something that I like and then you can't get it. So I'm sure you're helping with that, too, and keep up the good work.

[Nathan Wurst]

Thank you.

[Dr. Tamara Nall]

Yeah, click on it. That is what I want. I want it to be exactly what I saw and so that I can buy it.

[Nathan Wurst]

Exactly. Yeah. And it's, you know, it's the same thing when you're. When you're searching for stuff, you know, like.

[Dr. Tamara Nall]

Right.

[Nathan Wurst]

Google's algorithm, like, if you search for. For, like a black shirt, you know, it could. It could show you a black tank top. And, you know, if you're in. If it's, you know, December and you're in Texas, that's great. If you're in. It's December and you're in New York, like, not so much so.

[Dr. Tamara Nall]

Right.

[Nathan Wurst]

You know, we're trying to really improve the whole. The whole flow for all parties involved.

[Dr. Tamara Nall]

So, Nathan, as you know, we have a segment that we call from one genius to another. So, Ben Arnon, my last guest, has a question for you. And that is we're experiencing AI transform in industries that have remained unchanged for decades, which is so very exciting. What dormant human capability or experience do you believe AI will unexpectedly awaken or enhance that we have yet to recognize?

[Nathan Wurst]

Yeah, I think that is a great question. I think it's super cool, too, because I think there are very few industries that have remained unchanged over the past few decades, right. Like, almost, almost everything has been transformed by, you know, the, like, the dot com bubble and, you know, the rise of, of smartphones. And one area that I think has a ton of potential and it's already kind of started, is like, the fast food industry in a sense. You know, it's. It's already kind of happening to an extent. There is like a fully automated McDonald's in Copenhagen, which is super cool. But I think we're going to see kind of a rise of like, you know, super fast, like, coffee places. Right. Like, people aren't like, hanging out in Starbucks in the same way that they were 10 years ago or like in coffee shops in general. And I think there's going to be sort of a rise in like, automating these tasks that are, you know, very repeatable and like, time consuming. Right. Like if you're, you know, if you're a barista and you're running around and you are having to, like, you know, make an espresso shot and make foam some milk for a cappuccino and then pour it in a cup and then clean all the stuff out and then do it again, you know, a hundred times in an hour. I feel like that's something where some, somewhere in that process could be repeated or it could be and could be done by AI, Right? Like that's something that we could change. The area that I'm really hoping AI changes and impacts is laundry. Because I would really like it if someone could come up with an AI to fold my laundry for me. That would be a dream come true. Like just, you know, take it out of the dryer, throw it in some mysterious machine and let that thing calibrate and fold all my calls for me. That would be the really, the dream.

[Dr. Tamara Nall]

Well, you do know there are humanoids out there that will do that, so we're not that far from it.

[Nathan Wurst]

Yeah, it would be nice if they were, you know, a little more accessible, I'd say. You know, I don't have room or, or money for a humanoid robot wandering around my basement, so.

[Dr. Tamara Nall]

Right, a little compact.

[Nathan Wurst]

Yeah, exactly. You know, we've got a ways to go for sure, but, you know, fingers crossed, we'll get that one in, you know, the next five or ten years.

[Dr. Tamara Nall]

All your chores for you. That's amazing. Well, yes. Stay tuned. I'm actually working on a couple of projects related to that. Okay.

[Nathan Wurst]

Amazing.

[Dr. Tamara Nall]

Yes. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. Okay, awesome. Well, make us believers. I love the CTA of this. So what's the one thing that any of our listeners can try build or explore with shoptimize today to get a taste of it this week, talk to that marketing manager, talk to that product manager and, and your customer base and tell them, you know, what they can do this week to see the type of results that that shop tomy provides for sure.

[Nathan Wurst]

You know, I think the easiest way to see the impact that shoptimize can have for a marketing manager either at an agency or a retail company is right now go and Google one of the products that you sell that's not in season. And you will see, you know, keep it, keep it generic, right? Just use the, just use like tank top or boots or shirt or whatever. You know, don't use your brand name but use, you know, describe that product, put it in Google and watch how many results come up from your company and from other companies that are all selling this product out of season and likely not driving purchases with that ad.

[Dr. Tamara Nall]

Right. Right now. That's amazing.

[Nathan Wurst]

Thanks.

[Dr. Tamara Nall]

Amazing. And then when you do that, reach out to shoptomize so they can, can help you.

[Nathan Wurst]

Yes, please do.

[Dr. Tamara Nall]

Yes, please do, please do. And we're going to get to how people can get in contact with you. But let's do our rapid fire now. Most overrated tech trend.

[Nathan Wurst]

Oh, this is going to be controversial, but LLMs in general, I think, you know, they have amazing capability. I, you know, I work with LLMs. I think they're great. I think there are, you know, it is super cool tech and I think it is going to be revolutionary. I think that all these people making companies that are just like a, you know, open AI rapper, like trying to do something new because it has an LLM in it is vastly overrated. And I think that that's something that is not going to last.

[Dr. Tamara Nall]

All right, okay, next, the most underhyped AI breakthrough.

[Nathan Wurst]

Yeah, I think, you know, this is, has received a decent amount of hype in the bio community, but I think it's not being talked about enough in general is AI ability to recognize proteins and the way that they fold. You know, this is stuff that like what previously took ages and ages for humans to do. Like people got their PhDs analyzing a singular protein and now we have a technology that has done that for hundreds of thousands of proteins, like even ones that we haven't found in nature. So it's absolutely incredible. Absolutely a monumental breakthrough for biology, for medicine, and it's going to have absolutely huge impacts on health and research and everything in the next who knows how many years. And it's really not being talked about outside of these spheres at all.

[Dr. Tamara Nall]

Okay, well, it's on here now, so now it's going to blow up.

[Nathan Wurst]

Yeah.

[Dr. Tamara Nall]

One book everyone should read about the.

[Nathan Wurst]

Future again, a little. I feel like it's a decently well known book and it's actually kind of about the past, but I think it tells us really, like, how to think about the future. And that is. Surely you're joking, Mr. Feynman, by Richard Feynman of the Manhattan Project fame and MIT and all that. It's just one of my favorite books. It's super clever and it really gets in the mind of how you should think as a scientist and puts you in the brain of someone who's just way, way smarter than myself, which is why I like it. You know, I won't speak for everyone, but, you know, Feynman's a pretty, pretty genius guy. And so it's really great to get inside his mind and hear about his experiences and see how that can be, how the revolutionary technology that he was building can be applied to the revolutionary technology that we're building today.

[Dr. Tamara Nall]

Yes. Amazing. The boldest AI prediction you believe.

[Nathan Wurst]

All right, this one is a very hot take. Almost all the guys. My take is that I would say within probably the next 15 to 20 years, we will get a perfect March Madness bracket, okay? And that bracket will not be built by a human. It will be built by an AI. And to make it clear, I don't think it's going to happen every year. I don't think it's something that's going to be repeatable all the time. But I think between the changing college basketball landscape with the nil and the advancements that we're seeing with AI, I think that there is going to be some AI that creates 10,000 brackets and one of them will hit. As a little anecdote, I tried my hand at this, this March, and I put, I don't know, maybe like five or 10 hours into, into making a bracket with an AI, and it wound up in like, the 88th percentile of all brackets. It got most of the games right, caused some huge upsets, and it was a, you know, monumental Houston collapse away from being in the, like, the 99th percentile of all brackets. It got all the elite eight and final four teams right, and, you know, had Houston winning it all. So unfortunately dropped the ball on that one. But, you know, it got me thinking, like I was only, you know, a handful of games away with this, this model that I made in a Relatively short amount of time. And you know, if someone really puts a lot of time into it and comes up with the right, you know, the right algorithm and you know, makes enough brackets with it to account for some of the variability and the volatility we see. I don't think it'll happen every year, but I do think that there is a decent possibility that it gets it right sometime within the next 15 to 20 years.

[Dr. Tamara Nall]

Yeah, no, it's probably sooner than that because we actually have March Madness and my company, the leading niche. And you know, everybody went in. The person who won the $500 gift certificate used Chad GPT.

[Nathan Wurst]

No way.

[Dr. Tamara Nall]

Yes, she used Chat GPT. She won. And everybody else was, you know, they put in their best brains, their best thinking, but she was the one. And I asked the question because I was curious.

[Nathan Wurst]

Yeah.

[Dr. Tamara Nall]

At least on the corporate team, how many people did it versus did anybody use it? She was like, I did it, I'll admit. And she won.

[Nathan Wurst]

That's incredible. Yeah, I won. I won. I've, you know, I made it. I made one AI bracket and one like personal picks bracket.

[Dr. Tamara Nall]

Okay.

[Nathan Wurst]

And the AI one outperformed the personal picks by, you know, a landslide. It was, I also, also won my group using my, my AI algorithm. So, you know, it's on the rise. I think it's doable. You know, it's. I don't know that. Like I said, you know, I don't think it's going to happen all the time, but I think someone somewhere is going to get it right and I think that's going to be a very exciting moment as a data scientist and a sports fan.

[Dr. Tamara Nall]

Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, Nathan, I have so enjoyed this conversation. Tell us if someone wants to work with Shop to Minds because they know that you, after hearing this conversation, you'll be able to help them. Tell us, how do we get in contact with you?

[Nathan Wurst]

Yeah, a couple of ways. First and you know, probably the easiest is to just message me on LinkedIn. I am, you know, checking in pretty often, so feel free to add me there. Shoot me a message. You can also contact us directly on our website. We have a contact form at Shop Themize AI and you know, click on the contact tab and fill in your info and we will, we'll get in touch.

[Dr. Tamara Nall]

Absolutely. And on LinkedIn, that's Nathan. N A T H A N last name worst W E R S T.

[Nathan Wurst]

Yep, that is correct.

[Dr. Tamara Nall]

Awesome. Any last minute words, anything you want to share? This has been so amazing.

[Nathan Wurst]

No, I mean, just thank you for having me. This has been absolutely wonderful and it's been a blast to get on here and talk about know all things AI and shoptimized and, you know, what a, what a wonderful opportunity. Thank you for taking the time.

[Dr. Tamara Nall]

Absolutely. Absolutely. I've enjoyed it and thank you so much.

[Nathan Wurst]

Thanks.

[Dr. Tamara Nall]

Thanks for tuning in to lead with AI I'll see you next time as we continue exploring the cutting edge innovations shaping AI across the public and private sectors. Until then, keep leading with AI.