Loading summary
Transcript81 lines
- [00:00]
A
Foreign.
- [00:08]
B
Welcome to the Lead Worship well podcast. I'm your host, Chris Baker, and today I am thrilled to have with US pastor Will McDowell. He is a pastor, a worship leader, a songwriter. He does so many amazing things and he took time out of his busy schedule to sit down and have an insightful conversation with us about revival and repentance. Now, look, the conversation doesn't stop there. We go further and we discuss his new powerful song, the Promise, and how revival and repentance ultimately positions us to receive God's promise over our life. You don't want to miss today's episode. Let's jump in. Hey, friends, welcome to the Lead Worship well podcast. I'm your host, Chris Baker, and today we have one of my most and my family most favorite people in the whole world. He is absolutely incredible. We have Pastor Will McDowell with us today. Pastor Will, how are you doing, sir?
- [01:06]
A
I am great. And I feel the same way about your family.
- [01:09]
B
We love you, man. We love what God is doing in your life, in your incredible church. He pastors an incredible church, Deeper Fellowship Church in Orlando, Florida. And I just want to say, you know, a lot of people, we know you for your songs and you being a worship leader and to watch how God over the last couple of years just have put you center stage as a voice to the body of Christ. It's been special. And I have had the privilege of going to your church, to your conferences, and one thing you're gonna always get is the presence of God. My mother in law, you guys host the Presence. You host the Presence of God like no other church that I've ever been to. And I want to kind of start here. Sir. I know that that's not accidental.
- [01:59]
A
That just doesn't happen.
- [02:00]
B
It is very intentional. So let's start with how do you guys go about making sure that we place a premium on the presence of God?
- [02:12]
A
Well, I love this question because it is very intentional for us specifically as it relates to our posture. We deal a lot with postures in our church, but it really, it begins with something that we have as a part of the lexicon of our language, and that is that he's not in our presence, we're in his. And that that changes the way that you look at everything. We are the privileged ones. We are the ones who are honored, you know, to be in his presence. And because of that, there is another kind of posture that we've taken, specifically talking about the two disciples on the Emmaus Road that Luke talks about. You know, they talk about idea. Obviously, most People would talk about did not our hearts burn when he spoke with us? And that's that particular passage. But there's a peculiar phrase in that passage of scripture that I think also defines our posture, which is that when they got to their destination, the scripture says that Jesus acted as if he wanted to keep going. And I found that to be an interesting phrase that the scripture would include that Jesus acted as if he wanted to keep going. Because what it indicates is that he was not, didn't actually want to keep going. He wanted to see whether or not they wanted to host it.
- [03:33]
B
Yes.
- [03:34]
A
And so really it's this idea that he stays where he's hosted. And so of course the Bible says that they invited him in and of course he broke bread. And when he did that, they recognized who he was. Prior to that moment, they didn't recognize who he was. And I feel like, you know, there's a lot of, you know, subtle invitations that people miss because Jesus will come or the presence of God will come. And, and if you would host him, if you would invite him to stay, he absolutely will. So that's part of our posture. And then there's some things, very specific things that we do to kind of keep an atmosphere as well. So for example, you know, obviously you have ministries like, you know, IHOP in Kansas City, who, you know, kind of keep the flame, you know, burning kind of that, that Leviticus model. But for us, you know, even our way to do that, even though we're not able to do, you know, physical in presence, 24 hour worship for the entirety of the existence of our church, which is nine and a half worship, has played in our building 247 for nine and a half years. Wow. So even when we're not in the building, all throughout the building, we are playing worship throughout the building as an organization, as a staff. All of our meetings begin with prayer. Everything is about hosting the presence of God. Because for, for us, one of our core values as a church, core value being that which you do that cannot be compromised or changed for any reason. It's a core value. It's what you do and no one else's looking for us, a core value is that we honor the presence of God. You know, 1st Samuel 2 talks about the fact that God honors those who honor him, but for those who don't, he esteems lightly. And so it's one of those things where for us it is a posture specifically that we take that everything we do, whether it's the fact that worship has gone non stop for nine and a half years that we pray as a church twice a day on the phone at 7:00am and 9:00pm every day for, for seven and a half years now. These are things that we have done. And then of course, our posture, because of lexicon of our language, which I first started with, which is the fact that, you know, he's not in our presence, we're in his. So when we, when we take that posture, he's the one that's in charge. He's done, we're done when he's done. We don't get to control that. And so all of that is about honoring the presence of the Lord and hosting the presence of the Lord in an intentional way.
- [05:58]
B
So here's the hard thing about this interview. I'm interviewing you, but I'm trying to take notes too. Because you guys, if you've never heard Pastor William preach, I mean, you drop so many nuggets, it's like boom, boom, boom, boom. It's incredible. So this is going to be hard for me. Pastor William, honest to God, I love for you, I love how you unpack that level of intentionality because it is not accidental. It goes so far beyond picking two fast songs, a mid tempo song and then the slow song and calling that a worship experience. There's a lot that goes in to preparing for that experience. I love it. And I'm going to tell you guys, if you've never been to Deeper Fellowship Church or Habitation Conference, let me just go in and do that plug there. It is life changing. Your church is a revival center. It is a revival center. And I know revival is something that is near and dear to your heart. And my wife, she went to the, she served at the conference. I hate that I wasn't able to be there, but she came back. The T shirt. And the T shirt says, revival is not an event, it's an invitation.
- [07:06]
A
Invitation. Yes.
- [07:08]
B
And when I tell you, when I saw that Pastor William, it wrecked everything. Because growing up in church, my mom's a pastor and our listeners, they come in from all different walks of life. Revival is to some people, there's a spring revival and a fall revival. It's a set of services that you just put on the calendar and you schedule. But the way you have framed that revival is not an event, it's an invitation. Can you take a moment and unpack that for us?
- [07:39]
A
Sure. I, you know, this is something that I think is near and dear to my heart because a lot of times when we talk about revival, our mentality is a little backwards. Now, we would never articulate it the way I'm getting ready to articulate it. But it's very important that we understand this. We talk about revival as if it's something that we want, that God is waiting on. In other words, like we have to revive God, and God wants revival more than we do. He's not the one that's asleep. Revival happens. So, you know, because we act like, you know, that we have to, you know, if we do it perfectly and if we. If we shout long enough and if we praise long enough and if we pray long enough. And ultimately, revival is initiated by the Spirit and sustained by the Spirit. It is an invitation of the Spirit for every generation, for every individual to walk into the revelation of who. Who God is and to live with that purpose in mind. In other words, the truth about revival is a people or a nation that's in need of one is not in a state that deserves one.
- [08:44]
B
Okay, I'm gonna have to do this several times. Please, sir, say that one more time.
- [08:53]
A
People or a nation that is in need of a revival is not in a state that deserves one. Because in order to be revived, you must have first been alive. So revival itself, itself is actually a. A, a thing that is for those who are already in the body of Christ. Oftentimes we talk about revival because we look at the state of the world and we say, the world needs a revival. But that's a different terminology altogether. That terminology is an awakening. That's what the world needs. It's an awakening. What the church needs is a revival. A revived church leads to an awakened world. And so ultimately, you know, that's. That's. So when we talk about the invitation, you know, what often happens is because people who are asleep don't wake themselves up, it is the grace of God, it is the initiation of God. It is the provocation of God that leads to an awakening to our awareness that we even need him or that we're far from him. And that's the initial invitation of God into, hey, there is something that I have for you. There's a life that I have for you. Because in order to be revived, I say this kind of tongue cheek, you had to first be vibe. In order to be made alive again or awakened, you had to first be made alive. Well, the scripture is very clear that we are made alive when we are saved. We're quickened by the Spirit. And so ultimately, what revival is, is for the people of God who have once been at a place, who have now fallen asleep. So the Spirit of God, then through awakening, through his grace and mercy, through divine provocation, will invite us into a place where now we can live in an awareness of what's available to us the entire time. So it's not an. It is an invitation of God to be awakened to who he is and what he has for us.
- [10:40]
B
Okay, so let's just pause for a moment and see Lao on.
- [10:44]
A
On that.
- [10:47]
B
Oh, my God. That is. It's incredible. I've never heard it put that way. The difference between an awakening and a revival, because those terms are. They're used synonymously or interchangeably. I absolutely love that. The world needs an awakening. The church needs a revival. That's. That's.
- [11:03]
A
That's incredible.
- [11:04]
B
What? Why. Why do you think revival is important? Why do you think it's important?
- [11:09]
A
Well, so many different reasons. One of them, obviously, initially, is that those of us who have been saved, who then, you know, for whatever reason, have fallen away, have fallen asleep, are not aware or not even passionately pursuing all that God has for us. It's important because whenever the church, or even individual in our own lives, live as zombies, dead people walking, not alive to the things of God, it affects negatively everything around us. So the state of the world that we see sometimes we look at it and we say, well, that's just what the world is going to do. But we are to impact the world where we are. And so the importance of revival again becomes. If the church, a revived church, challenges the status of the world, a revived church becomes the physical representation of the invisible kingdom of God. We begin to live from a set of a reality and a moral standard that is higher, that we are empowered to live, that is higher or different from the world itself. And so it is vitally important because the systems of our nations are affected by a sleeping church, an awakened church or revived church not only challenges the systems of the world, but also changes the systems of the world.
- [12:35]
B
Let me ask you this. Are there any prerequisites? I've heard you say this. Revival is God's response to the cries of the people, you know, that's God's response. Are there certain prerequisites to. Yes, yes, let's go there. Okay.
- [12:52]
A
Well, you know, when we say revival is a response of God to the cries of his people, here's the interesting thing. He provokes the cry.
- [13:04]
B
Divine provocation. I got you. I see it.
- [13:07]
A
So it's not just that we are crying out for something, and he finally responds. It's actually that he's the divine initiator. The divine provocation that actually awakens or provokes the Christ. So I'll give you an example with Hannah. The Bible talks about in first Samuel that Elkanah, you know, had two wives, you know, Peninnah and Hannah, of course. And Peninnah, you know, gave him all these children while Hannah was barren. And the scripture says that every year Panina would taunt Hannah because Hannah was barren. And so ultimately, that was God's divine provocation, because ultimately she had made peace with disappointment. And so because she had made peace with disappointment, what ends up happening is she's no longer crying out for this thing. But God could not allow her to be silent because while she wanted a. So a prophet, so therefore, because of what God wanted to birth through her, he could not allow her. So he used divine provocation through taunting of someone else to actually cause her to cry out. So that by the time she goes to the temple, here she is giving this wordless cry. Eli thinks she's drunk, and she says, no, it's not that I'm drunk. It's that I've been crying out to God. And so he says, may God give you what you've been crying out for. At which point, you know, obviously, she initially birthed Samuel, who becomes a prophet to the nations. But even after that, Samuel wasn't the only child that she birthed at that point. But there. There was a divine provocation. So there are some. Some prerequisites, I will say. One of the. The prerequisites, of course, I will say, is no cry, no revival. Right. That is. That is something that if. Because a cry, only awakened people will do so. It is. It is. It is that which says we recognize that we need.
- [14:51]
B
Something is missing. Yes, sir.
- [14:52]
A
We need something. We cry out for it. And so you know that there is that sen. Cry, no revival. But when you say the specific word prerequisite. The specific word prerequisite is a very important word. Because if you had said, is there anything that can lead to revival? I would have, you know, focused on the cry. But when you say prerequisite when I made the statement earlier that a people or a nation that's in need of revival is not in a state that deserves one, that then also indicates to us that one of the prerequisites to revival, and we see this all throughout Scripture, is repentance. This is the one area where a lot of times we tend to not lean in on it. But repentance is a gift from God. It is a gift from God that comes with a Promise which. The promise attached to repentance is, if you return to me, I will return to you. It is God saying, listen, once you've been awakened to the fact that you are not where you're supposed to be, if you will return to me, I will return to you. It is the prerequisite of every revival. Revival. But it's also the gift that God gives us. And it's a posture that we don't get to lead. Because what repentance is, is a perpetual turning towards God and away from the world. So it's a perpetual thing. It's not the thing we do just when we get saved or just when we mess up. It's actually a. A gift or a technology that God has given us to constantly turn us away from idolatry, away from the things of the world. When I say idolatry, I'm not just talking about statues of people's houses. What John 5:21 says, what is an idol? Idolatry is anything that takes God's place in your heart. So anything that takes God's place in your heart becomes an idol. The way that the ESV or other translations would say it would be. Dear children, keep away from idols. NLT says, keep away from anything that takes God's place in your heart. So there's this reality that the love of the world or just being in the world is constantly pulling our attention, pulling our heart, pulling our focus away from God. What repentance or a posture of repentance is doing is constantly turning away from the things of the world, constantly turning towards God. And a repentant heart is a prerequisite to revive heart.
- [17:07]
B
Okay, like, this is enough to chew on for six months. Because here's the thing I've always loved about. You know, I'm literally. Tears in my eyes. I've always loved about your. Your ministry. Whether it was just songwriting or your preaching. You have a way of making the kingdom simple. I don't know what it is, man. It's just you have an anointed to take this down and break it down in a way that. Oh, like, okay, I can see that pattern now. I understand. Revival is not an event. No, no, no, no, no. It's something totally different. And revival is God's response to the cries of his people. So how do we get. How do we get into revival? Well, repentance is one of the ways. It's one of the prerequisites. So now we're talking about repentance, but it's not repentance in The Lord, I'm sorry, forgive me for my sin. But it's a perpetual turning away.
- [17:57]
A
That's right. A turning away from and turning towards God. It's a posture.
- [18:03]
B
So I want you to dig into this because we love to talk about revival, but most people don't talk about repentance. It is not a popular thing. And I know if this is a burden that God has placed in your heart, I know you might have had to wrestle with this burden because it's not a popular burden. It is so much easier to just talk about what God is going to do. God is going to bless us. You know, you keep, you know, be faithful. And God is going to. God is going to. But we negate our responsibility. And I love how you are now talking about it is our turning away. So can you deal with this idolatry thing? Because it is so under the radar. Most people will say, like you said earlier, I'm not bowing to a statue of BAAL or, or different things. And so we don't realize that idolatry is operating in our lives without us even knowing it.
- [19:00]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [19:01]
B
Can you take a moment and deal with that?
- [19:02]
A
Sir, yes, sir. So, you know, as the Lord began to deal with me over the last number of years concerning the posture of repentance, you know, I'm like, okay, you know, we're going to take this posture. This is going to be a perpetual posture. This is not going to be something that we, you know, take lightly and that kind of thing. And I taught on it, you know, for a while, but it was very clear, you know, when people begin to really think, okay, but what are we repenting of? The primary issue that we have in this world, whether people recognize it or not, is we're repenting specifically of idolatry. This is a thing that actually leads us astray more than anything else. Now, first John, chapter two, verse 15. I guess we have to flipping our Bibles to get to it. But first John, chapter 2, verse 15. These things become a real issue for us. And I think that a lot of times we don't look at it. The scripture says, do not love this world, nor the things it offers you. For when you love the world, you do not have the love of the Father in you. For the world offers. And I think this is so important for us only because a lot of times I think that we think there's all this stuff that the world offers, but there's only three things that the world has to offer, offer, and none of them satisfy us. But yet when we pursue them, it ultimately the love of the world pushes out the love of the Father, right? So the world offers only a craving for physical pleasure, a craving for everything we see, and a pride in our achievements and possessions. That's the only thing that the world has to offer. Now only Jesus satisfies us. He's the all sufficient one. Now the amazing thing about the satisfaction of Jesus is once we've tasted him, he's the only one that can satisfy. But we still want more, right? So, you know, it's this interesting thing, but as it relates to, you know, what we're dealing with here, we don't recognize, most of us don't recognize how much of the world we embrace in order to try to fill what only God can. And so what ends up happening is that's why later on in this same book, he says, keep away from anything that takes God's place in your heart. That is what's defined as an idol. Now the interesting thing about the provocation of God is that whenever his people find themselves in this place, he uses divine provocation in methods that most of us would never think that God would use. Divine provocation in order to get us to see our error or in order to get us to see our idolatry or in order to get us to see how far away we've drifted. Why? Because he loved us so much that he's unwilling to allow generations to drift into destruction. Right? So whenever we are not intentionally doing something, we're drifting. And so because he's unwilling to allow us to drift into destruction, he will send course corrective or allow course corrective events to happen in our lives, both individually and then also corporately and even globally, in order to awaken a people to how far they've drifted or how far they've fallen in love with the things of the world that lead to a place of idolatry that draws away from him. There's a scripture in Amos that is just profound. And I think that if we were to, to really think about this particular passage of scripture, it would really change the way we see the love of God. Because I know we sing about the love of God often, but we sing about the love of God in a way that's basically like he loves us like we love, but he loves us beyond the way that we love. Because the way we define love is I'll never do anything that makes you uncomfortable. I'll never do anything but, but ult ultimately true love goes so far beyond that. So I want to show us for example, divine provocation. And when I read this passage, Scripture, most people would never look at this particular passage scripture as the love of God. All right, now, when I read it, it's going to sound like, how in the world would you call this love? But think about this. In Amos, chapter 4, verse 6, the Bible says, I brought hunger to every city and famine to every town. But still you would not return to me, says the Lord. I kept the rain from falling when your crops needed it most. I sent rain on one town but withheld it from another. Rain fell on one field while another field withered away. People staggered from town to town looking for water, but there was never enough. But still you would not return to me, says the Lord. I struck your farms and vineyards with blight and mildew. Locusts devoured all your fig and olive trees. But still you would not return to me, says the Lor. I sent plagues on you like the plagues I sent on Egypt long ago I killed your young men in war and led all your horses astray. The scent of death filled the air. But still you would not return to me, says the Lord. I destroyed some of your cities as I destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. Those who survived were like charred sticks pulled from the fire. But still you would not return to me, says the Lord. Now I read this, and you're like, that sounds like a really mean God doing all these things, things to people. But everything was to get the attention of his people because of his promise, if you return to me, I will return to you. But because you don't see how far you've gone, I'm gonna allow these things to happen to get your attention. I'm gonna allow this calamity to happen. And so many times in our lives, Chris, what happens is stuff happens in our life, and it's God trying to wake us up. It's God trying to get our attention. Why? So that he can give us what he planned for us. The entire time we talk about this particular scripture, we put it on mugs and T shirts and everything else, but I know the plans that I have for you, says the Lord, plans of good and not evil, to bring your hope in the future. You know, we quote this all the time, but we don't recognize that the context of that passage is, of course, they're going into captivity, Babylonian captivity. For 70 years, everyone's thinking, why is God allowing this to happen? It's for the nation. Next part. In those days, when you call to me, I will listen. When you pray, I will. It's like God is like, I am going to do some things to wake you up so that you will recognize your need for me. And I know that you think that what I'm doing is terrible, and I know that you think that what I'm doing is bad. But I know the plans I have for you. They are plans for good and not evil. Not to. The plans to give you a hope in the future, everything you're about to go through, Even if next 70 years, it's all about coming back to me. Because I love you so much that I'm unwilling to allow you to drift into destruction in your idolatry and in your sin. And so the divine provocation of God is that he will allow certain things to happen in our life or even scripturally cause certain things to happen in our life for the attention of saying, hey, don't forget about me. I love you so much that I want to bring you back to me. And if I find you going in another direction, and by speaking to you, you won't listen, I'll put a roadbloc in your path. I'll do whatever it takes to turn you around. And that is why repentance is a gift. Because God says, no matter how far you've gone, no matter. No matter what you've done, no matter how far your nation has gone astray, no matter how far your life is off the rails, if you will return to me, I will return to you. There will never be a moment that I will not revive you when you recognize you need me. There'll never be a moment where I'll say, you messed up too bad, or it's too late. The entire time, everything I'm doing is to get you to see, hey, come back to me. That is what we call the parable of the prodigal son. It's actually the parable of the loving father.
- [26:56]
B
I love that flip on that perspective. Yes, sir. Go ahead, go ahead.
- [27:00]
A
Loving father, who basically said, okay, I'm gonna let you go do that, but. But understand that the moment you come back, you know, the son, when he came to himself, here he is trying to figure out throughout the speech. And the Bible said that when the father saw him from a long way off, he ran and greeted him. He ran to him because it's like. And the son was like, hey, you know, I. If I could just be one of the servants. You don't have to be a servant. You're a son. I embrace you. I'm gonna throw a party for you. Because it doesn't matter what you've done. The moment you return to me, I will return to you. That is the invitation of revival, and that is the invitation or the gift of revolution. Repentance is that God will do these things to get us to see. But the moment we turn, revival is on the other side.
- [27:43]
B
Wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow. It is so clear you're taught. I've been in church my whole life, Pastor William. It is. I can see the intentionality from the enemy to put this disdain on repentance. Because he understands that's the key.
- [27:59]
A
That's right. It's the key. We talk a lot. You know, probably one of the most famous repentance verses is in Second Chronicles 7. Of course, you know, if my people who are called by my name would humble themselves and praise, you know, seek my face, turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and forgive their sin. But there is another, you know, reality. Again, context matters. And in the context of this. Of this passage, you know, of course, you know, Solomon, they just built the temple, and he's dedicating the temple. And as he's praying, you know, over the temple and everything else, of course, you know, God shows up, you know, fire comes to heaven, the priest can't stand to minister, you know, that. That whole thing. But then he starts this long prayer and he's saying, God, okay, would you bless this place in such a way that if people at times go astray, if they come and they pray in this temple, would you hear from heaven and forgive their sin? And he says, if they mess up so bad, but they come back here, you know, all of this is in Second Chronicles six. But if they come back here and pray, would you hear from heaven? Would you forgive their sin? And he goes through all these things, and he even says, you know, even if foreigners do it, but they come here and they pray, you know, would you hear from heaven? By the time we get to that particular pass of Scripture, and the whole prayer is in 2nd Chronicles 6. But the interesting thing is what verse 11 says is, so Solomon finished the temple of the Lord as well as the royal palace. He completed everything. He planned to do construction of the temple and the palace. Then one night, the Lord appeared to Solomon and said, I have heard your prayer. This is the part we don't always add, right? I've heard your prayer. Prayer and have chosen this temple as the place for making sacrifices. Verse 13. At times I might shut up the heavens so that no rain falls or command grasshoppers to devour your crops or send plagues among you. But Solomon wasn't praying something random. He was actually praying what he knew that God said he would do. In Deuteronomy, when Moses said, hey, if you turn away from God, God's gonna send these things to you. So choose blessing here. So why? Because again, God was saying to Moses, listen, whenever people go astray, I'm not going to let them forget about me. If they forget about me, these are the things that are going to happen. Why? We look at it as a punishment, but if we see it through proper lens, it's God saying, I won't let you forget about me. I won't let you go astray and not course, correct you. So the scripture says, at times I might shut up the heavens. Why? Because if they go astray, that's what will happen. Happen. So that no rain falls or command grasshoppers to devour your crops or send plagues among you. But if my people, who are called by my name would humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, the answer to the prayer is, I will. I will. You asked me. You asked me, God, would you. Would you. Would you forgive? He's saying, I will hear from heaven and forgive their sin and restore their land. I will. Solomon. Yes. If people repent, I will respond. If people repent and they turn back to me, I will come back to them. This is the promise. And I think that the thing that I want everybody to know is that repentance comes with the promise. Repentance is attached to a promise from God. The promise from God is, when you return to me, I will return to you. That's why the enemy doesn't want us to do it. That's why he puts this shame. He tries to attach the shame on it and everything else. No, no, no. It's a gift from God. I made a promise, a covenant that I will keep. You come back. I'm right there.
- [31:44]
B
Oh, my God. This is. This is. This is beautiful. This is beautiful. Pastor Wynn, we have. There's worship leaders, there's musicians, there are pastors that listen to the podcast. And I just want to ask you, practically speaking, what does repentance look like? Are there any practical, clear steps that a person can take that we can take?
- [32:05]
A
Such a great question, because I think that, you know, obviously, you know, there are things that we are aware of, and there are things that we are not aware of. And so the practical thing is, first, don't deny the thing that, you know, you're aware of, right? You know, acknowledge that before God. Acknowledge the fact that he is holy. He sees all things with. Everything is, you know, with the Scripture makes this declaration. Everything is. We're naked before him. Everything is seen. So, like, don't sow fig leaves, right? Don't try to. Don't try to hide this stuff, right? We know the areas of our life and which are. That are not congruent with the word of God, that are not congruent with God's standard. And so agree with God quickly. Don't fight God in those areas, right? So that's a perpetual posture that we take. Lord, I recognize, you know, that you are holy and that I am not. That you are. The process of sanctification you're taking me through. You are making me more like you. You are making me holy. But in the areas where I've missed it, I confess those things, right? So that's practical that we're doing those things. To confess those sins is to agree with God quickly. And the Scripture makes it very clear that when we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us of our sins and cleanse us of all unrighteousness. So we know, like here, this is. This is already, you know something. So let's. Let's agree with God. Let's agree with His Word. But the second thing, there's another reality, and that is to pray until the Holy Spirit reveals the areas of our life that are not congruent. Because if you'll sit with them long enough. I think one of the missing spiritual disciplines that we really need to recover is solitude and silence. Because ultimately, you know, part of the dialogue or the conversation of prayer, at some point you gotta stop talking to him.
- [33:52]
B
Yeah. Stop talking.
- [33:55]
A
So, you know, it's like, you know, when Peter and James and John are on the mount of transfiguration, you know, they. They see Jesus talking with Moses and Elijah and that whole thing. And you can get into the whole, he's talking to prophet in the law and all that kind of stuff. It's fulfilling. You can do all that stuff. But the truth of the matter is Peter's like, this is great that we're here. We should build three tabernacles, one for you and one for Moses and one for Elijah. And a voice comes from the cloud and says, this. This is my beloved Son. Hear ye him.
- [34:18]
B
Yes.
- [34:19]
A
In other words, stop talking. You know, there come moments where if you will sit with him long enough and just be with him, you'll begin to recognize there's Other areas that you did not readily know at the top of your head, hey, I want this, this is where, you know, the psalmist says, you know, search me, oh God, see if there's any, you know, thing hidden in me. Any, any way that that doesn't please you, like, root that out of, of me. Search my heart. And so it's really, you know, the fear of the Lord, but not being afraid of the Lord, if that makes any sense. So it's the reverential respect and awe of God that says, you know better than me. You know even my secret thoughts, you know, even my secret ways, you, you know the things that I don't know. And so part of that is in order to be fully congruent, it's being honest about what you know, but also asking him to reveal what you don't, and then taking a posture that's says, every single day of your life, I'm turning towards you. Because we're not just turning away from something, we're turning towards something. Yeah, you know, Matthew 13:44, 46, which is the parable of the treasure in the field and the parable of the pearl, you know, ultimately the treasure in the field, you know, the kingdom of God. Like a man who found a treasure in a field, in his excitement, he hid it, hid the treasure, then sold everything he had to buy the field so they could possess the treasure. Well, he wasn't thinking about what he was losing, he was thinking about what he was gaining. You know, I think oftentimes we've kind of looked at the things that the Lord asked us to do, whether it's, it's turning away from the things of the world or whatever. And we've kind of looked like what we're losing, like, oh, he's asking us to live this, this chase life that just no fun and no whatever. But the, that's, that's not the thing. It's that we're gaining Christ. And so we, we are returning away from the things of the world. And recognizing this stuff doesn't satisfy me. I shouldn't be pursuing this. I shouldn't be after this. I gained Christ so that the practical, the practical thing is, you know, first treasure him.
- [36:24]
B
He's the reward.
- [36:25]
A
He's the reward. You know, I said this years ago, the reward of worship is God. Like, we get him. He's the treasure. He's the pearl of great price. He's the treasure, he's the reward. So treasure him first. But then because of that treasure, turn away from anything else that obscures our view, our pursuit of that treasure.
- [36:46]
B
I want to go into this other because I want to talk about this transactional worship experience that we engage in because we are talking to worship leaders and, you know, psalmist and how it has perpetuated this thing to where we are worshiping to get something. I am sowing to get something from God. I am doing this because I want God to return. And. And we're missing the point. Like, I heard you. I've told you, I studied all your stuff, man. So I'm like, it's changed my life when you made it very, very clear, like, listen, listen, he is the main thing. He is the reward. He is the object of our affection. Everything is about Him. The moment it is about what he can do for us, then we lessen it. But so many of us, and I'm guilty of it, Pastor William, have been guilty of engaging in this transactional worship experience and transactional relationship with God.
- [37:48]
A
Yep. You know, it's amazing. Now, I will say you just encapsulated all of it right there in the way that you said it. Moses in Exodus 33, you know, after all he had experienced, you know, I mean, the 10 plagues, you know, the bush that wasn't would not be consumed with fire. God writing the commandments with his finger on stone tablets. I mean, the cloud by day, pillar of fire by night, the parting of the Red sea, manna from heaven.
- [38:19]
B
All the.
- [38:19]
A
That after all of that, he still says, but I want to know you. I want to know you. Show me your glory or show me your ways. And it's one of those things where it's like, what I'm after, like, all the things you've done. That's great. But what I'm really after is you. You know, the psalmist in Psalm 73 put it this way. Whom have I in heaven but you? There's nothing on earth I desire besides you. It becomes like the premium focus. Jesus is not a means to an end. He is the end. He is the end, you know, but we unfortunately, at times, you know, treat him like a vending machine. You know, like somehow or another I'm doing this so that I can get things from God. And ultimately he is. That's why Matthew 13, you know, 44 through 46 becomes such an important, you know, lesson for us, that he is the treasure, he is the pearl, he's the end. And ultimately, you know, when people ask me, what can I do to be a better worship leader, or what can I do to be a more effective worship Leader. They ask me that question all the time. They don't. They never seem to like my answer. I'm like, be completely in love with Jesus and Jesus alone. And I mean, it's like, there's got to be more than that. And it's like, no, no, there's not. There's not more than that. I mean, are there practical things within context? Yes, but all of those things have different contextual meanings based on the context you lead in, on how it's effective, effectively engaging people. But if you want to be an effective worship leader, but you're not in love with Jesus, you're not leading them anywhere. And so ultimately, you. You. You'll never be effective in worship if you don't love Jesus. You'll never be effective in pastoring if you don't love Jesus. I mean, it's like he is. He is everything. He is the end goal. He is the prize.
- [40:12]
B
Pastor William, you have shared so much revelation, and it does change your worship because worship is correlated to your revelation of who he is.
- [40:24]
A
Absolutely.
- [40:26]
B
I know people that are listening, they're going to be. They're blessed by it. They're going to like. But for me, it has unlocked something in me.
- [40:34]
A
Wow.
- [40:34]
B
To see it clearly. Thank you so much, sir. I want to ask you this. How has this revelation informed your songwriting, and how has it appeared in your music? The songs we sing that Pastor William pens, how has it appeared in your music?
- [40:56]
A
Well, you know, it's really, really interesting, Chris, because this really hit me me this way, beginning in 2020 is really how it hit me. So, you know, I've always taken a posture of surrender that has been a kind of a running thread throughout my songwriting, really. My songwriting has been my prayers to melody and then obviously trying to give people, you know, language for either how they feel or language for how they. The relationship they could have, you know, with God. And so that had kind of been, you know, everything had been, you know, for, I would say, up until 2016 or so, have been looking forward to a move of God. And then in 2016, the Lord began to do some, you know, amazing things in our church. Really just, you know, miracles, signs and wonders.
- [41:48]
B
Yes, sir.
- [41:49]
A
Really began kind of. Okay, we're seeing the things that we were praying about, singing about, you know, before. And then when I released the project, the Cry, it was an attempt to give people language and a glimpse into to the other side of a move of God. These songs were birthed out of that. So the first it was, we want to see a move of God. Now it's. We've seen. We've seen it. This is. This is how. Now we've hosted him. This is how we've been in sustained revival or sustained move of God. That's what that was about. And then in 2020, something really happened. Now, we could have taken the full time just to talk about what's taking place, and we've kind of been talking about it in a roundabout way. But in 2020, I really sought to understand, you know, I. I do recognize that, you know, the political climate and all that kind of stuff, people think a lot of different things. I just want to talk from this book, not my opinion, right? So I was in South Africa when the whole world shut down, right? March of 2020, I was in South Africa, and I was actually in my hotel room, and the Holy Spirit woke me up in the middle of the night and said, go home now. I was supposed to speak at this conference in South Africa another five or five more times, right? And. But the Holy Spirit said, go home now. So I called my assistant here in America. I said, please help us get these flights. And we end up getting the last three seats on the last flight out before everything shut down. So we come back here, and at the time, because there was so much uncertainty, and everyone who's listening, please, please just suspend your skepticism for a moment and hear my heart, okay? Because I know how difficult this is now. You know, even what I'm about to say, it's not difficult biblically, but it's just difficult in the way that most people process, right? And I'm fully aware of that. So. Because I'm aware of that, I know that, you know, but you asked the question, so I'm gonna answer it honestly. Like every pastor, knowing the uncertainties of everything, I'm like, okay, I want to preach about don't fear and don't, you know, whatever, and God's not giving us a spirit of fear and do fear and all God speaking, all this kind of stuff. And so as a pastor, because I don't want people to be afraid. I want people to stand in faith and all that kind of stuff. I'm like, okay, that's what. And so on the plane ride home, I wrote a whole message about don't fear. I got back to my office, and I got on my knees and I said, lord, I don't just want to say to your people what I want to say or what I think, Give me your heart. What is it that you are saying in this moment? Moment. And he Spoke to me. But the thing is, what he spoke to me made me so nervous at first because I didn't fully understand it that I was like, oh, no, I'm not saying this. I'm not about to, you know, because what the Lord said to me at that moment was he said, I want you to study the word pestilence, is what he said, I want you to study the word pestilence. And so when I start studying the word pestilence, the pestilence actually means global disease. Global disease is what the word pestilence means. But then in the scripture, every time you see pestilence, it's connected to judgment. So then I'm like, oh, no, I'm not about to be like, oh, this is a judgment. I'm not about to do that, God. Nope. I'm gonna go back. Do not fear. But the thing is, this is how it ties into everything we've been talking about, right? Pestilence becomes an instrument of God's divine judgment, Judgment for the purpose of divine provocation to bring people to turn back to him. It is an attention getter that, that causes people to say, wait a minute, if this is happening, and, and here's my thing, right? If everybody's praying about something that won't go away, and we call it the devil, but everybody's praying about it, at some point, if it's not moving, the devil don't have that much. He doesn't know, sir, right? So at some point we have to ask God, is there something that you've allowed in the earth to get our attention? Is there something that you've allowed in the earth to get our attention? Whether it be our financial markets, whether it be pestilence, whether it be. That's why we had to read Amos chapter four. We had to read Amos chapter four because Amos chapter four lets us know that God is like, hey, I said this to get your attention, but you wouldn't turn. I sent this to get your attention, but you wouldn't turn. I sent this to get your attention, but you wouldn't turn. Now I recognize, recognize the political climate and everything else people like, I can't get with you on that. I appreciated everything else you said, but I can't get with you on that. But my thing is this Bible says that God will allow pestilence also in the earth in order to get the attention of his people to turn. There was a pestilence that God allowed in David's day for three days that took out 70,000 people. And the Bible says that When David bought Aruna's threshing floor and built an altar to repent, the pestilence averted. And so we don't want to look at it like that. So when you asked me the question, how has this affected your songwriting? What. What ended up happening was, for me, I stopped writing for a moment because I was like, nobody wants to sing about repentance. Nobody wants. And then it was like, wait, but there's a promise attacked this that. That we must invite people into. Because here is the thing. Thing that becomes the most powerful thing prior to 2020. If you look at the verbiage of the body of Christ, particularly in the Western church, right? All the verbiage was revival this, revival that, revival this, revival that. Everybody wanted to talk about revival. And God said, great, I want you to have it. But there's a prerequisite to it that I need to let you know. The prerequisite to revival is repentance. And so I came to answer your prayer. I came to give you what you asked for. But because the invitation came and outside of the envelope said repentance, most people didn't want to open it.
- [47:52]
B
Didn't want to open it. God almighty.
- [47:55]
A
Revival is not an event. It is an invitation. It's an invitation, but the invitation into it is repentance. God will bring about certain things in the earth. That's why we talked about divine provocation. He will allow certain things that happen in the earth to position us. This is what the Babylonian captivity was about. It was about positioning the people to actually a remnant of people who would actually live right, who would actually do things the right way. And as a result, what God did, even though the temple was destroyed, the original temple was destroyed, and everyone lamented over that, the temple that the exiles who returned built, Zerubbal's temple, was smaller. But God said prophetically, the glory of the latter house shall be greater than the glory of the former house. Now, if you look at the glory and the splendor of that, you're like, how is that possible? God visited that house with the cloud, right? But he visited Zerubbabel's temple in the form of Christ. Christ was the greater glory. So they got the cloud, they got the shadow. Zerubbabel's temple got the substance. What the. What the. What the. What the exiles built was the temple that Jesus visited. Jesus is the greater glory. So, you know, God is positioning us for something great if we will receive it. So when you ask me the question, how has it affected my songwriting now? I'M writing from that place.
- [49:17]
B
Oh, wow. So which leads me to this last question here. The Promise. New soul.
- [49:25]
A
The Promise. Yes.
- [49:27]
B
It makes sense now. It's like. Well, it's just. It's. The revelation now informs it to. Whereas, oh, this is. This is something different.
- [49:36]
A
The Promise. The lyrics of the Promise, which is the song that God gave me to write because I was trying to figure out, you know, how can we give language to this. You know, how can we give language to this understanding, which is, I think, important for all of us that, you know, we write out of a place of revelation? You know, we write songs out of a place of our time with God and not just out of our idea of God. Right, right. It's. It's a real revelation that that's downloaded into us. Something that we've walked through, you know, for years, that we can really carry and articulate. Those are the things that really, you know, birth things in people's hearts, you know, so it. It's like, how can we write, you know, this in a way that. That allows people to really kind of understand and have handles, you know, on this season that we've been in, the season that we've been walking through. So it does begin with setting questions, Chronicles 7. You know, it begins as this prayer. You know, if my people who are called by my name would humble themselves and pray, I'll hear from heaven and forgive their sin, I'll hear their land and revive them. And then we. We enter into the promise, which is return to me, and I will return to you, my beloved. You know, these are the lyrics I'm actually giving. Return to me and I will return to you. And then it's when you return to me. If, when. When we return, it comes with the promise that that's kind of the, you know, you will revive us. I think the thing that I wanted everyone to see is that if we would take the posture of returning to God, then the thing that we've been crying out for, the thing that we've been praying for, will be revival. And so we have this moment of prayer where we ask the Lord to forgive our sin and heal our land, to revive us and restore us. And then my brother Dunson Oyek, who's just a force, really kind of gives language for asking after we're praying this prayer, you know, we kind of have this reprise moment where he just kind of gets language to the power of what happens when revival. You know, he says, when revival comes, Jesus is glorified, the body is edified, and the devil is terrified. So it's this whole journey of we start with the humility of simple repentance that leads into our prayer of actually doing it, that leads into God's response. And that's the journey of the promise.
- [51:44]
B
Oh, Lord, Lord. And then. And then Nicole. Ben is on it too, right? Yes.
- [51:49]
A
Yes. It's. It's. Yes.
- [51:51]
B
So you, Dunson and Nicole, that is just. That's a serious problem, Pastor.
- [51:56]
A
And your wife is too.
- [51:57]
B
Oh, man.
- [51:58]
A
She was. She was so excited.
- [52:00]
B
Oh, man.
- [52:01]
A
It was a whole moment. And what we've done with this is to give the song context. I've never done this before, but to give the. The song context, we're also releasing the exhortation, which kind of. Kind of puts into, you know, a few minutes, our entire conversation. So we're releasing the exhortation that gives a song context so that people can understand. And, you know, we're releasing this not as a part of an album or full project, it's a standalone so that this particular song and this particular revelation can really get into the hearts of people all by itself without being lost among other songs.
- [52:35]
B
Oh, wow. Cannot wait. Cannot wait. Come on. Super excited. Super, super excited. Pastor William, this has been life changing. It has been life changing for me and I'm sure for everyone listening, it has been a life changing conversation. And I know that you paid a price. You don't get this type of revelation without a price being paid. And thank you for your. Yes, I mean that from the bottom of my heart. The ability to break open scripture to make it plain, simple, to where I can immediately I can apply that. I get this. Thank you, sir, for taking time out of your schedule to speak with us. My last question for you, and then we'll wrap, is this is just. What is your greatest desire for this generation of worship leaders? What is one of your greatest desires?
- [53:25]
A
Wow. It's gonna. It's gonna sound really simple again.
- [53:28]
B
I love it.
- [53:29]
A
Really know God and be known by God. It is so our. Our. Our privilege that we get, you know, when we get the lead worship is we get to minister directly to him and people get the opportunity to witness that and be inspired. And I think that one of the most dangerous things that we have right now, particularly in, you know, generations, are shorter definition now than they were biblically. But, you know, in the latest generations on the earth, is that we're one of the first generations, generation to be famous for the way we live before we die. And so as a result, it has produced a desire to be famous while leading worship, but we are never more Luciferian than when we desire to. To have fame while pointing to him. So ultimately, this. This desire to know God, to please God and be known by God, and to look at him is the highest privilege. Being with him is the highest privilege. It's not a platform or anything else. It's actually him, because platforms don't equal the pleasure of God. So I think that when we. When we talk about, you know, this and worship leaders, it's people who actually find such a privilege of worshiping God that doesn't matter if they're in front of people or not.
- [54:43]
B
Yes. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Well, Pastor William, thank you so much. Blessings to you, your beautiful family, your church, your amazing church, and all that you're endeavoring to do. Do your best is. Is still yet to come, sir. Thank you for the price you have paid and thank you for being a blessing to the body of Christ and
- [55:03]
A
thank you for this time. And of course, love, love you and your family as well.
- [55:06]
B
We love you, sir. Give our best to your family and, sir, you take care and you be blessed. Thanks for sharing these nuggets with our lead worship. Well, podcast, our lives are forever.
- [55:18]
A
Thanks for listening.
- [55:19]
B
I wish you could see my notes. Like, this has been the hardest, hardest interview I've ever done because I have questions and I'm like, no, forget that. I'm taking notes. I need to eat right now. So, guys, if I ate today, I ate really, really well. So. So thank you, sir. And God bless. God bless you, sir.
- [55:37]
A
God bless you, too.