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Leading Saints Podcast
A Blueprint for a Christ-Centered Church Culture | An Interview with John Bushman
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- [00:02]
Kurt Francom
Hey, if you think Leading Saints is just a podcast, well that's a big mistake. We are so much more than a podcast. We've established online a Leading Saints community. That's right. If you go to leadingsaints.org Zion, you'll be pushed towards a community online where the discussion is really happening. Sure, you're going to listen to this episode, you'll get some great tips and ideas and hear a thought provoking discussion. But the conversation doesn't end there. We go over to the Leading Saints Community and talk further there. You can make comments, you ask questions and we'll probably do some follow up live streams with maybe the same guest. But a lot is going on at the Leading Saints community. So check out the show notes for the link leading saints.org Zion and join the Leading Saints community. So you're checking us out as maybe a potential podcast you could start listening to. I know many of you have been listening for a long time and but let me just talk to the newbies for a minute. What is Leading Saints? What are we trying to do here with this podcast? Well, let me explain. Leading Saints is a nonprofit organization, a 501C3 is what they call it. And we have a mission to help Latter Day Saints be better prepared to lead. Now of course, often means in the context of a calling. It may mean in your local community, your work assignments. We've heard about our content influencing all sorts of leaders in all sorts of different contexts. We invite you to listen to this episode and maybe a few others of our 500 plus episodes that we have out there, jump in and begin to learn and begin to consider some of these principles we talk about on the Leading Saints podcast. Here we go, King before Kingdom. That's the book that John Bushman wrote, Subtitle Faithful Revival within the Church of Jesus Christ, Latter Day Saints. Now obviously we have a huge focus on the King Jesus Christ. We want to orient people there. However, there's also the Kingdom, right? And we want to orient people there and gather around the kingdom and the church and the institutional church and all that happens there is beautiful, right? But sometimes we can get these two mixed up that maybe we're emphasizing the church and we forget the King in the process, right? Or the Savior Jesus Christ. And I think over the years been making a better effort at keeping Jesus Christ as the focus of our meetings and of our talks and of our, our learnings, right? But where do we miss it? And how can we have a, a faithful revival where we're orienting people to not Just the restored gospel or the restored church, but to the Savior, Jesus Christ, that can restore our souls. So John Bushman and I explore this concept. Fantastic discussion. I think you'll appreciate, and it'll cause you to think a little bit deeper about your approach, not only as a leader, but also as a person, as a Latter day Saint who shows up at church. So here's my interview with John Bushman. All right, John, so when. When was the moment you sat up in bed and said, I need to write King Before Kingdom? This book?
- [03:09]
John Bushman
I would say about three years ago. And it wasn't just a moment, but just these ideas were coming. And it kind of a. You feel frustration when you find such an emphasis sometimes on church and people talking about like, oh, I know the church is true and bearing testimony, which is a great testimony to have, but okay, now talk about Jesus. And yeah, you just felt like there's something missing and people, boy, church has changed my life. Wait, did Jesus change your life? What part did that play? And, yeah, and I think some of it's just behind the surface there. But, yeah, people not recognizing that. By the way, Kurt, I love, love, love what you guys are doing.
- [03:52]
Kurt Francom
Well, thank you.
- [03:53]
John Bushman
I didn't know about you till, like two weeks ago, like I was saying. And. And I was kind of like, dang, why wasn't this, like, when I was serving as bishop, Elders, quorum, different presidencies, why didn't I have this? Because I love what you guys do with collaborating, getting ideas, and sharing vision. I listened to the podcast with Eric Richards. Oh, yeah, he's great. Yeah. And he's a good friend. I love that man. He's such a good guy. And yeah, I was like, where was this for me?
- [04:23]
Kurt Francom
We were right here. Yeah. Trying to look over here.
- [04:26]
John Bushman
You know, I'll definitely be sharing about you guys.
- [04:30]
Kurt Francom
I appreciate that.
- [04:31]
John Bushman
I had, when I was serving as bishop, for a long, long time in Washington, we had this stake president that once a month he called all the bishops in. And part of that meeting, he would have us just talk about different aspects of being bishop, like, okay, with ward councils and with. And all these subjects. And then we collaborated and shared ideas. And so often I was blown away by, you know, some other bishop shares this idea of what they're doing. And I'm like, that is so much better than what I'm doing. And it's so easy to come into a calling. And you're like, well, this is what it is. And, you know, it looks like this and it's always been done this way. So I guess it always should be done this way. And then someone brings an idea that just kind of gives you a whole different view, a whole different vision of what it could have been. And it's like, okay, I'm going to change that. I mean, I'll tweak it a little bit this way and put a little different spin. And I just love that. One of the coolest things. My stake president was Michael Anderson, one of the best leaders I've ever served with. And he said, saying to us bishops, well, in the church meetings, what's the most important meeting? And this is during the days of the three hour block. And it's like, oh, sacrament meeting. Okay, what's the most important part of sacrament meeting? Well, the sacrament. Okay. And then he said, how many of your sacrament meetings, the sacrament portion goes something like this. So without any more ward business, we'll go ahead and proceed to the sacrament portion of our meeting by singing hymn 194. And then after which, and it's just like this autopilot thing and you can almost feel all the people just kind of like they've heard this so many times, your mind just starts to turn off. He's like, stop it. Don't do that anymore. And now I kind of like in my mind, paused and thought, wait, you can't change that. That's just how you do it. And what are you going to do? Put the sacrament at the end of the meeting? You can't do that. Or what are you going to do? Like do the water first before the bread? You can't do that. But he went on and said, just say something little, like afterward business. Just say something little like right now we're going to, we're doing the most important part of this meeting when we get to commune with the Lord and we get to recommit ourselves to the covenants. And, and you know, one of those covenants is to always remember Him. And I want to challenge all of you to maybe as you're taking the sacrament, think of how you can remember the Lord more, maybe how you can think of him and focus on him during the next seven days. And he said, now, whatever you share, if it's more than two minutes, you've gone too long. It should be like a minute long, but just say something. And so as a bishop, I was like, okay, counselors, this is what we're doing. And something short, quick, to the point. And I noticed this difference that people, instead of just this glaze of going on, going through the motions of the sacrament, you could just feel a little more power there. And people were really recommitting themselves and thinking about the prayer and. Yeah, so interesting. My box, it was. It looked like the sacrament should be like this, and then here's this person that just blew that away. And. Yeah, so I love what you guys do and just giving ideas.
- [07:56]
Kurt Francom
And I love that approach where it's just sort of that pattern interrupt. Right. Where even if you don't say the perfect thing or relate it to something specific, you know, in the scriptures or whatever, it's more of like, oh, wait, something different's happening here.
- [08:09]
John Bushman
Right.
- [08:10]
Kurt Francom
And which takes me to your subtitles. A faithful revival within the Church of Jesus Christ Latter saints and leading saints. I mean, from the beginning, we wanted to be part of a faithful revival. Where. And I guess I'm curious, that word revival, like, that can sound very evangelical, right? What does it mean to you, that
- [08:28]
John Bushman
revival, you know, the word revival and revive. You can kind of think of it three ways. Revive, like the cool water revived our spirits. You know, you weren't asleep or anything. It just like, okay, I'm back. You know, there's revive, like when you wake up. And spiritually you can just kind of be asleep. And when you are asleep, think of it like if you're having a hard time going to sleep some night, it's like, dang, why can't I go to sleep? And then you don't realize you did go to sleep until you no longer are asleep. You wake up the next morning, oh, I guess I did fall asleep about 1am so interesting.
- [09:06]
Kurt Francom
That works. Yeah, yeah.
- [09:07]
John Bushman
And people who are asleep, like. Like when Lehi told his sons, you know, Laman and Lemuel. Awake.
- [09:12]
Kurt Francom
Awake.
- [09:13]
John Bushman
Yeah, he's talking about revive. Get, you know, get back to awake. Spiritually, of course, there's also revive, like when you have to take the paddles. Like someone, you know, needs CPR and they're dead. And I think sometimes there's people who are dead. Spiritually, they may go to church weekly and keep, you know, basic commandments, but spiritually, there's no life and connection with God. They're just thinking, okay, well, I go to the right church. I have a testimony of that, the right church, and I participate in the right ordinances and I learned the right things, so I must be right with God. And there's no connection. There's no feeling. It's just motions without emotions, I guess.
- [09:58]
Kurt Francom
Yeah, yeah. And we're creatures of routine and habit. Right. Which can be a blessing in some contexts. Where it's like, I'm so glad that, you know, I, I wake up and do the things I do and it gets me on the right track or another times it's like, wait, what, what am I even doing? I'm just sort of breathing and going about my day.
- [10:16]
John Bushman
Right.
- [10:16]
Kurt Francom
And so it's that re engagement that revival can, can have, right?
- [10:20]
John Bushman
Yeah. It's like driving here this morning, can you remember what lights you stopped at and which lights were green? No. In fact, probably as you were, probably once you arrived here, you couldn't. Like we drive on autopilot where we're thinking about, okay, later I got to see this person do that. And, and if it was a red light, you probably just instinctively put your brake on the pedal there and go, okay, accelerate. And yeah, just kind of spiritual autopilot sometimes. And so things that wake us up out of that, you know, sleep, so to speak.
- [10:53]
Kurt Francom
So what does that, what does that sleep look like in the Church of Jesus Christ, Latter Day Saints, like you
- [10:58]
John Bushman
said, we just do some things, we have routines and it's easy to fall asleep to it. Sacrament. Here's these 14 year old kids in my seminary class and 15 year olds and okay, let's do the math. Let's say you took the sacrament 40 times. You know, you went to church 40 times out of 52 weeks that year in their state conference, whatever. 40 times, okay, then you're how old? 15. Do the math. And they've taken the sacrament like 600, 700 times. You know, as us, we've thousands now and said so you, you've heard this verse more than any other verse of scripture here, write out the sacrament prayer and it's like, oh God, the eternal. Okay, and, and I even have like little fill in the blank. So some of it's there, some of it's missing still. And then for the, you know, for the bread, there's three promises we make. That's the part they get stuck on the most. What is the three promises we make when we take the sacrament? And they can't think of it, you know, willing to take upon us the name of thy Son, Take upon us the name of Jesus Christ. Always remember him. Always remember Jesus. Keep his commandments. And that just kind of, wow, I've heard it thousands of times, but it's so easy to just not even recommit.
- [12:16]
Kurt Francom
And I'm curious like, because I do so many of these types of interviews where I talk with, you know, leaders sharing their own experience, leading and, and great ideas come to the surface and many of those kind of go viral and they get passed around and, and sometimes I worry that when we think of revival, it just means just do it different. Right? Like, because I'll hear some really dynamic ideas or people will meet me in person or send me an email like, hey, you got to hear what my words doing. We're doing it different. And it's sort of like, well, I mean, it's great to like, try different things, but I also don't want to create this perception that we're just all about doing it different. You know, like, testimony meeting is so, like, archaic. Do it different, you know, and, and again, these, you know, there's a lot of inspiration there. But I worry that, like, sometimes we reach for revival by just doing it differently. And I don't know if that's always the best case.
- [13:04]
John Bushman
Yeah, I'm sure you've said this many times, the why and trying to figure out the why you're doing it that governs the how you're going to do it and what you're going to do. Like all these different things. Well, does it align with your why? What is your purpose? What are you trying to accomplish? A year or two ago, we're driving home from church and with our boy Jordan. And he didn't have that great a time at church that day, I guess, but I remember asking like, hey, Jordan, how was church today? And he's like, dad, why do we even have to go? I never learn anything new and. And I end up answering all these questions and the other people aren't saying anything and why do we even have to go now? In his mind, the purpose of church was, I guess, learn new things, learn things you didn't know. And he's a smart kid, so he knew most everything. And maybe to get a testimony of things you don't or strengthen your testimony of things that you don't have a testimony of. And, you know, is that why God wants us to go to church? To learn new things and stronger testimonies? Well, we call them worship services. Worshiping God, you know, I could have asked him. Jordan, how did you do with connecting with God today? Did you feel closer? Did you feel his spirit? Did you? You know, I didn't at the time. You know, just kind of. But yeah, worship should be about connecting with God. There's worship. You know, I love looking at words like how they are in the scriptures. You have like the, the Hebrew, the Greek. Modern definition, worship in. In Hebrew is. I can't remember the word right off hand, but it's to. The idea is to bow down, but not just bow like, you know, like Japanese or, you know, you do a little bow. It's not that it's bowed down like a Muslim person might do when they're praying. They're on their hands and knees with their head clear to the ground, as
- [15:01]
Kurt Francom
low as they can get, really low.
- [15:02]
John Bushman
And the idea is with worshiping is God, you're greater than me in all ways. It's a point of surrender. In fact, in Alma, Chapter 22, King Lamoni. No, no, it's King Lamoni's father, he asks Aaron, what do I have to do to have eternal life?
- [15:23]
Kurt Francom
That's a good question.
- [15:25]
John Bushman
In the answer, it's just one short verse. He says twice to bow down before God. I don't know if we usually think of that. How do you have eternal life? You got to bow down. But the idea is this surrender to God. God, I want to do things your way. And so part of worship is to surrender ourselves and, okay, God, you're in charge. You're smarter than me. I want to do life your way. The Greek is a lot like the Hebrew. It's this bowing. But it also is to see worth in worship is to see worth in so. And, you know, the way our society is, there's things that just digging on God all the time. How could a loving God allow this? And God, why isn't this happening in my life? And to worship is to see worth in God. And, you know, all the time we should be testifying, saying, man, the Lord's been so good to me, helped me through the hardest time. And. And so that connecting with God by sharing about his goodness and love. And the modern definition of worship is anything that connects us with God. So our prayers, singing the hymns. Boy, talk about going through the motions. How often have we sung a hymn and not once thought about God or how awesome he is? We just go through the motions. So, yeah, one of the big whys of church should be to connect with God.
- [16:51]
Kurt Francom
It's really interesting because I appreciate, like, how you frame that. That, like, it shouldn't necessarily be all about, like, just doing it differently, but first starting with a vision or what are we trying to accomplish? You know, are we trying to create a worship experience, connecting with God? And with that, then, yeah, there's some things we could try differently to enhance that, but it's more of the, you know, just don't do it differently. Do it differently. What's the purpose in there? I think that's where a lot of Church leaders or even individuals personally can start of being like, okay, wait a minute, I put this tie on every single Sunday. What am I even doing? Right? And this has caused me. We're recording this the day after the announcement of the going from alternating schedule to a split schedule right. On Sunday. And there's all sorts of opinions about it, right? Why it won't work, why it didn't work or whatever. And I often, like, people have asked me, like, what do you think about it?
- [17:42]
John Bushman
Right?
- [17:42]
Kurt Francom
And I think where I go is, I don't think we've really come together to identify what is it we're even doing or trying to accomplish on Sunday. Right. Like in one thought, I'm thinking, well, why can't we just show up, have the sacrament and go home? Like, essentially, that's the ordinance that can only be done in person, right? We can do. I can do YouTube for come follow me if I need. Or I can do, you know, I got buddies I can connect with that aren't in my elders quorum and still have that. Right. And I go to church for community primarily myself. Others maybe go for primarily gospel instruction. Right. But there's also this feeling of, I kind of like in our culture we see scripture study and engaging with the gospel is like, we're all striving to be BYU religion professors, right? Like, if I just know the Hebrew of this and that and I can articulate it, then I'm like, I've grasped the gospel, when in reality I kind of feel like it should be to that connection with divinity to think, like, I think I can do seven more days, you know, like, yeah, I'm gonna. There's that renewing or that reviving happening. But sometimes we get trapped in this. Like, well, you know, this PhD said this about that scripture and this and the other is like, okay, great, but what is that even? How's that helping you connect with God other than just sort of being a cool factoid, you know? Yeah. What thoughts come to mind as I spew that all over you?
- [19:00]
John Bushman
Yeah. Is it about knowledge or connecting with God? Some people, that's not even on their radar. Wait, I'm supposed to be connecting with God today, Sunday or every day? That's a new thought for many people. In fact, how do you think most people would answer this question? True or false? Agree or disagree? I guess if I keep the commandments sufficiently, I'll go to heaven or celestial kingdom. If I keep the commandments sufficiently, how do you think most people would answer that?
- [19:32]
Kurt Francom
I'd say most people Say true, right?
- [19:33]
John Bushman
Yeah, yeah. You know, now if that's your idea, if that's your vision, your why, then everything would be focused on, okay, then we need to be talking about the commandments more because we got to keep them well enough to get to heaven. So, okay, talks in church. Well, we'll take honesty. That's a commandment. And we'll take this commandment and this, and we'll break it up to make sure everyone knows what the commandments are, and then, you know, inspire them to keep those commandments. And it'll be all about the commandments all the time. And so let's put a pin in that for a moment. Will the commandments, keeping it sufficiently, save us? Put that aside for a second. And here's something. I bet you 99% of your audience this will be new information. They've never heard this before. The Bible, the Old Testament, the New Testament. That is the two main parts of the Bible, those titles, Old and New Testament. It's a mistranslation. The actual. And you think, well Testament, you know, it's like, testify. So this is, you know, the proclamation, the old proclamation from God, and this is the new proclamation. Now, it's a mistranslation. It's not even close to that. The actual word is old covenant, New covenant. So in the Old Testament, there was an old covenant, and there's a new one. And so naturally you think, well, wait, what was the old covenant that we were under? And what is the new covenant? And how. You know. And the old covenant was Moses. Well, all the people said, okay, we'll do all these commandments, we'll do all these things. And Moses sprinkled the blood. There's always blood when there's a covenant. In fact, the term for covenant, you cut a covenant, there's always got to be blood with it. So the old covenant was, we will keep the commandments like you say, and when we break them, there's the blood offerings of these animals, the burnt offerings that we do. So that basically is the old covenant, the new covenant. Well, you know, what did Jesus come, and how is it different from what Jesus came? Faith. Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Did you know the Old Testament does not talk about faith at all? Except haggai, I think chapter four Haggai says, you know, the just shall live by faith. And it's repeated in Romans. But, yeah, the new covenant is faith. And why did Jesus even come to give a new covenant? It's because, like Jeremiah In Jeremiah, chapter 31, he talks about the Old covenant, which they broke, and we've always been breaking the whole way. We've never been able to keep God's law sufficiently. But then Jeremiah 31 talks about how he would give a new covenant and it would change and it would be inside of us rather than these outward things that we do. So Jesus, like when he gives the sacrament, he says, he takes the cup of wine and he says, this is my blood of the new. Now the King James Version says, this is my blood of the New Testament. But again, that's a mistranslation. Every translation except King James translation says, this is my blood of the new covenant.
- [22:44]
Kurt Francom
Oh, wow.
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John Bushman
And notice with blood, there always has to be blood with the covenant. But this time it's not blood being sprinkled on us like Moses sprinkled the blood on him, it's blood. If we take into ourselves Jesus's blood, that's what the covenant. But faith. So you think, well, faith, believing. Okay, isn't everyone, you know, it stated, sorry, general conference this next week. If we made it interactive. And one of the speakers said, hey, raise your hand if you honestly believe in Jesus Christ. I'm sure we get 99%. Yeah, you know so. And you know the scripture, John 3:16. For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting Life. So, okay, 99. We're all going to heaven. We all have eternal life. Well, do we really understand what believing in faith means? Because I don't think we do.
- [23:42]
Kurt Francom
Because that's. Usually we're approaching the New Covenant when we're talking about context.
- [23:46]
John Bushman
Yeah.
- [23:47]
Kurt Francom
But we often have an Old Covenant approach to it of, like, because if you're asked a question, commandments to a class, what does it mean to have faith? Oh, well, go to church, right? Like, read your scriptures, right? Like, it's this outward expression of I'm doing something, therefore I have faith.
- [24:01]
Gordon B. Hinckley
Right.
- [24:02]
John Bushman
Yeah. And when you get the recommend, get a recommend. I think the first question is, do you have faith in and a testimony of God, the Eternal Father, his Son, Jesus Christ, the Holy Ghost. And how do we translate it into our minds? I think it's like, okay, he's asking if I believe in God. Yeah, yeah, I believe in God. And they do. But you know, James brings up this idea in the New Testament that even the devils believe in God. In fact, like, think when Jesus was casting out devils out of these people, they would cry out, jesus, thou son of God, leave Us alone. And they knew he was divine. Other people are like, who's this Jesus guy? You know? But the devil's new. If it was all based on having a sure knowledge that God exists and that he's real. Check the box. The devils know, but the devils obviously aren't going to heaven. So faith is something different than just accepting something is true or false or a real thing. What is it? Think of maybe another level of a different level of faith. Like you have faith in your surgeon. Let's say, you know, I'm going in for heart surgery, and you know that. And I'm like, I don't know, Doctor. I. I'm a little worried about this surgery. And he's like, hey, you need to have faith in me. It has nothing to do if the surgeon exists. He's probably right across from me talking to you. But do you trust me? Will you rely on me? You know, I'll have a scalpel and you'll be out cold. You trust me because of one bad incision and you're dead. You know, do you rely on me? You know, because it's complete trust. That's faith. Having faith in your surgeon, nothing to do with his existence.
- [25:45]
Kurt Francom
Yeah.
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John Bushman
It's about know do you trust? And likewise, the faith in Jesus Christ that saves is, do I trust him? Do I rely to the degree that I put my life into his hands? Am I bowing down to him where I'm surrendering? You know, Lord isn't just a cute title for Jesus Christ. Lord is what he's supposed to be in our lives, that he's the master, that he's in charge. And have I made Jesus Christ the Lord of my life? That's the faith that saves a person. That whosoever believes that way, you'll go to heaven. But if it's just. Yeah, I believe God exists. So what should the why of church. We should be directing people to Jesus Christ. The checklist. The answer to if I keep the commandments sufficiently, will I go to heaven? The answer is no. The first principles and ordinances of the gospel are faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, number one, and then repentance, baptism, you know, during, to the end. And that's what. So everything we do in our wards and stakes and should be pointing to Jesus Christ and that faith in him where it's a surrender and making him the Lord of our lives.
- [26:59]
Kurt Francom
Yeah. That is the new covenant. That's it. So take us back to that pin you put in to strive to keep the. The commandments.
- [27:06]
John Bushman
Golly, if it's a do list. Isn't that just discouraging? Yeah, if you think it's keeping the commandments sufficiently. You never feel good enough. Yeah. You never feel like you're there, even
- [27:16]
Kurt Francom
if you're striving right.
- [27:17]
Gordon B. Hinckley
Yeah.
- [27:18]
Kurt Francom
It's like, well, I could have stroven, striven, you know, 10 more today or whatever.
- [27:23]
John Bushman
Yeah. I could have read my scriptures a little more.
- [27:25]
Kurt Francom
Yeah.
- [27:25]
John Bushman
I could have prayed a little longer. I could have been a little nicer to my child. You're never enough because you're not. That's why we need Jesus, because we're not enough on our own. And it's Jesus that saves us. So I can follow him and try to follow Him. I'm willing to do those things because I'm trying. I'm not able to, but I'm willing.
- [27:47]
Kurt Francom
Yeah.
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John Bushman
So.
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Kurt Francom
So I want to see if we can stimulate some more revival even in this concept of making Jesus Christ the focus. Because this is becoming. I think obviously there's been a cultural shift in last 10, 15 years at least. Maybe that's just my awareness of, like, you wake up any leader in the dead of sleep and say, what do you want church to be focused on, son? Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ. Right. And we sort of say the things, and we. We're like, okay, well, this person's talking about hope in Jesus Christ. So we up there hope, you know, they're saying, which is good. But I almost feel like we can push it further. It's like, it's not about making Jesus Christ the focus as much as this making. Making his redemption the focus that he has redeemed us, that his grace saved us. And that is that message. People walk out of church feeling like, oh, I'm like, I'm glad I came. Rather than like, okay, A lot of Jesus talk. Cool to hear these stories. I've heard them a hundred times. But it's more of that connection point, that redemption is the connection point to our soul. I feel like, what are your thoughts on that?
- [28:47]
John Bushman
Yeah. And you're right. We have been going the right direction, like, 10, 15 years better and better. And yeah, we are definitely going the right direction. And I think there's just these little obstacles, these little things that get in the way. Substitutes. I think we substitute out Jesus sometimes in really weird ways. Let's hear him, for instance. Conversion. You hear the idea, oh, Sally, she's a convert to the church. She's a convert to what? The church. And you think, why do we even think that way? I bet you on missions preach My gospel. And I was before preaching my gospel.
- [29:27]
Kurt Francom
Me too.
- [29:27]
John Bushman
Okay, yeah. But the way we committed people to baptism was kind of the same. We taught people about Joseph Smith, the Restoration, we taught people about the Book of Mormon and Moroni's promise and how they can get a testimony that these things are true. And then at least in my mission we're like, hey, if you're feeling it, go for it. And we'd say, and I checked with preach my gospel. It's almost identical to this still today. When you know these things are true, will you follow the example of Jesus Christ by being baptized on April 21st or whatever it is, Notice what we've asked him to do. When you know these things are true and have a testimony, testimony that Joseph Smith was a prophet, the Book of Mormon is true, therefore the church is true. That ripple effect. When you know these things are true, will you follow Jesus Christ's example by being baptized? So notice the testimony as soon as you have that, you're ready for baptism. Now if you go to the topical guide and look under Baptism Qualifications for, it's a whole set heading there, Baptism Qualifications for. It sends you to like Moroni, Chapter 6, Mosiah, Chapter 18, Doctrine Covenants, Section 20, where it talks about requirements. Never is having a testimony that the church is true a requirement for baptism. What it does talk about is willing to serve him till the end of your life. This full on commitment to Jesus Christ. Baptism is not about choosing a church, it's about choosing Jesus Christ. But we have like in missionary work, made it about choosing a church. There's actually an ordinance about choosing a church. It's confirmation, you know, and I confirm you a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. So leave that to confirmation. But really what baptism is about dedicating their lives to Jesus. We have no business baptizing somebody who has not made a commitment to follow Jesus Christ for the rest of their life. We just no business doing it. It's not about choosing a church. And later I served in the Philippines where it's fairly easy to baptize and they're very believing people and we would ask them, you know, hey, read the Book of Mormon, pray about it. They would. And yeah, I know it's true. And, but also they would go inactive. That was a very big problem. So I would say half of what we did as missionaries was visiting less active members and trying to encourage them. And so we'd say, hey, you know, we haven't seen you. Oh, I've been busy. Well, you know, do you still have a testimony? You still know the Book of Mormon is true? Do you still. Oh, yeah. And they were telling the truth. They really did. But what we didn't ask them, and I wish we would have, was, are you still dedicated to following Jesus Christ for the rest of your life? And I think they'd be like, wait, I don't remember the missionaries talking about that. Was that part of the deal, getting baptized as Christians? I'm surrendering my life to following Jesus. Now we need testimonies that the church is true. I mean, we should not baptize someone unless they know Joseph Smith is a prophet. The Book of Mormon is true, all that. But we also need to add in. I am following Jesus for the rest of my life. I'm surrendering to him. And that's when you'll get people following for the rest of their lives. So conversion is one of those big ways where we just kind of make it about something else.
- [32:51]
Kurt Francom
Yeah. And if I'm remembering even the sacrament period, like, there's no reference of a church. It's all about our relationship with God or Jesus Christ and, And following him and his commandments and having his spirit be with us. Right?
- [33:03]
John Bushman
Yeah. Keeping his commandments, Jesus's commandments. If it's like, my church doesn't want me to drink, sorry, I can't drink it. My church doesn't want me to.
- [33:11]
Kurt Francom
No.
- [33:11]
John Bushman
Jesus is saying, don't drink alcohol. There's a difference.
- [33:14]
Kurt Francom
Yeah. So this is interesting in it, and I'll go here, but I'm curious, are there any other quick ones as far as where we substitute church with Christ too quickly?
- [33:24]
John Bushman
Yeah. Here's a quick one. I teach Institute online. One of the chapters is all about the atonement of Jesus Christ. And then they can ask questions at the end of the week. And one of the common ones, how can I apply the atonement of Jesus Christ in my life? Is the atonement like lotion? You're rubbing it in.
- [33:44]
Kurt Francom
And I often related to, like, the force. And star was like, Luke, like, use the force. Like, what? What is the force like? It's just this obscure power that we have. Right.
- [33:55]
John Bushman
That they apply in their life. It's like Jesus, by dying force, created this thing called the atonement, and it can help me. No, it's not the atonement you need applied in your life. It's Jesus Christ in your life relationship. Yeah, we need to quit talking about the atonement like it's this thing unto itself. And by the way, President Nelson's talked about that and hiring and others, but we are not there yet. We still talk about atonement, like, it can help us when. No, it's Jesus who helps us. Atonement doesn't forgive you. Jesus forgives you. It doesn't strengthen you. Jesus strengthens you. It's.
- [34:33]
Kurt Francom
Yeah, yeah. So I'm curious, just this is sometimes a tough dance for church leaders, who they're called in these roles. They receive authority, keys at times. And there can be this heavy presence of, like, I represent this institutional church. And even, you know, even in concepts like forgiveness, where people think, well, why am I going through like this, you know, this process, repentance process. When doesn't Christ just forgive me? Like, has he already paid? Like, isn't. And I've heard some people frame it in, well, we're not talking about the forgiveness of Christ as much forgiveness of the church. And as it gets muddy. Right. And as a bishop, I'm like, you can be like, well, I'm doing this temple recommend. Like, I kind of feel this obligation to protect the institutional church or the institution of the temple or. And so then Christ kind of gets lost in that. Right. And so what comes to mind as far as that dance that sometimes church leaders have to do?
- [35:29]
John Bushman
It's tough. And you got to have your. Why that again, it needs to be about Jesus, the whole purpose, because the church is so important. But the purpose of the church is to direct us to Jesus. And so us as church leaders, if it's got to be directing them to Jesus, everything else is spinning your wheels. Everything else is. And yeah, the church is important. And this is God's kingdom on the earth. I believe that with all my heart. But you just can't put that before. It's king before kingdom, not king instead of kingdom. We're not trying to get rid of the kingdom. But yeah, you put him first. Everything falls into place. And we know. I think as leaders in the church, we know how to put the right emphasis when we know it's Jesus before anything else.
- [36:20]
Kurt Francom
Yeah. And so that's just keeping that at the forefront as we're interacting with people. Like, what is going to orient them to Jesus, you know, as much as possible, rather than am I just sort of making sure that, you know, procedures and policies are exactly followed? I don't know, it gets tricky at times where, you know that. Where revelation plays a role there. But yeah, I don't know. It's tricky.
- [36:42]
John Bushman
Yeah. You know, you could ask somebody. I did this about a year and a Half ago I would colleagues at work and people, everyone I knew, I would ask them this question I'd like to or requests. I would say, tell me about your conversion story. And it's a wonderful conversation to have. It's just people sharing. But here's something weird. Nine out of ten times when I asked people to share their conversion story, they shared about how they got a testimony that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is true. That how they got a testimony that the Book of Mormon is true. How you know that the prophet is real, which is great, but is there a difference between a conversion story and a testimony story? We need testimony stories. I could tell you my testimony story, but my conversion story is a little different where, you know, where I just kind of said, lord, I am done doing things my way. I am, I am lame. I want to do things your way from now on. Please forgive me and let me. And yeah, when you start thinking about it that way, boy, wouldn't it be great in sacrament meeting fast and testimony meeting people getting up and I just wanted to share my conversion story with you. And you know, here's the point. When I decided I was all in with Jesus Christ and all the power. How do we know when we've reached that revival, so to speak? You'll have people talking about Jesus more and what the Lord has done in their lives and it's always going back to Jesus. And you're there when that happens.
- [38:14]
Kurt Francom
Yeah. And I've noticed that as that revival happens, there's a shift of people being speaking more authentically from their brokenness of like how Jesus stepped into this, this wounding and offered me healing or offered me a new course and, and really changed me so that I can move on rather than a place of this is what I know, but more of like this is what my relationship with Jesus Christ looks like. And it changed me. It's remarkable. Yeah. Yeah. So it's easy to sort of, I guess you could, with this focus on Jesus Christ, you could look at any, you know, Protestant grace loving, Jesus loving person and be like, you know, they're. Yeah, they're oriented towards Jesus and, and so they could have some of these conversion stories and things, which is true. And I love hearing those. That faith and. But at some point there, there's kind of this. As Latter Day Saints were like, yeah, but there's this institutional church and we have, you know, restored authority and ordinances and things. And you know, this is part of
- [39:11]
John Bushman
the, part of the journey here.
- [39:13]
Kurt Francom
So, you know, so like, how does that how do you reconcile that? Or, you know, as far as the role of that, the church and the
- [39:19]
John Bushman
ordinances and the authority, king before kingdom, like as missionaries go out. And also what we're doing as church leaders focusing on conversion to Jesus Christ. And then it's natural to want to find his kingdom, like missionary work. Sometimes we approach people like, hey, God has his kingdom on the earth and they have no interest in God, so why would they even care about his kingdom on the earth? But when they're converted, they see how Jesus Christ can play this role in their lives and following Jesus, once they're converted, then they naturally want the kingdom. I think Joseph Smith, at 13 years old or early 14 years old, and hearing all the camp revival meetings of all these churches, and he decided he was all in with Jesus, that he wanted to follow God. And so naturally it's like, okay, now which one is. Which is your church? And that's when he's studying. He's going to all the different church services of the different. He's asking questions and he wants to know God, you know, I found you. Help me find your kingdom. And that's when he finds us. Not on the earth today, but yeah, by putting that conversion first. And you talk about, you know, Protestants, many different Protestants. And there's a funny. I wouldn't recommend south park. Usually not very appropriate, but if you want to see a funny skit, go YouTube, South park and Mormons and hell, have you seen that one?
- [40:52]
Kurt Francom
So the first time I saw this was on my mission during a zone conference where my mission president said, you cannot write home and. And tell your parents I showed you South Park. But the skit was so funny.
- [41:01]
John Bushman
Yeah. And all these people in hell and they're like, wait a second, I shouldn't be here. I was a faithful evangelical. Well, you picked the wrong one. Well, I was a Jehovah's wit. You picked the wrong one, too. Well, who was it who was right? And he looked at the clipboard. It was the Mormons. Yes, the Mormons. And everyone just collectively, ah, you know, we picked the wrong one. And will there in the next life be this separation by denomination, that you pick the right one, you pick the wrong right? Wrong, wrong, wrong, right. You know, and I would say no. In fact, I don't think Elder Oaks would agree that there's this separation by denomination, that they'll be very good, faithful followers of Jesus Christ that will be in the celestial kingdom. He said it in October 2000 conference in the talk the challenge to Become. He said what is important in the end is what we have become by our labors. Many who have come in the 11th hour have been refined and prepared by the Lord in ways other than formal employment in the vineyard. Being an actual member of the church, then he says, these workers are like the prepared dry mix to which it is only necessary to add water, the perfecting ordinance of baptism, gift of the Holy Ghost, which, with that addition, Even in the 11th hour, these workers are in the same state of development and qualified to receive the same reward as those who have labored long in the vineyard. So these people who are trying to follow Jesus Christ with all their heart, when they learn in the next life, the Lord's like, well, actually, I did have my kingdom. Okay, sign me up. Where can I. Because they're all in with the Lord. But I think we can have the danger on the other end of it where we think, hey, but I was part of the kingdom. I was baptized at 8 years old. Well, were you really surrendering yourself to Jesus? Were you really all in with Jesus or just content with being a member of the church? Yeah, yeah. Making him the King of our lives by far, is more important in the church and out of the church than any other thing. Other things can work out, but that can't work out.
- [43:17]
Kurt Francom
Yeah. Yeah. That's really good. Really good. What are we missing here? Anything? I appreciate the concept of you talking about legalism in the book. Is there anything around that you haven't discussed already or maybe just explain? I think a lot of people aren't familiar with the term legalism in faith and how that works with grace or doesn't work with grace. Right?
- [43:38]
John Bushman
Yeah, it doesn't.
- [43:39]
Kurt Francom
You know, legal.
- [43:40]
John Bushman
We think of, like, lawyers. The term lawyer is like seven times in the New Testament, but not once is it talking about lawyers the way we think of lawyers in the eyes of the Pharisees and Sadducees, God's law. Like, they believe that. Yeah, by keeping the commandments sufficiently, I'll go to heaven. So they made it all about the commandments. They made commandments into law. And you do these laws, you'll go to heaven. And so they added extra commandments just to make sure you don't break them, the fence laws. And you start doing that, like some people. Sometimes we're accused of being judgmental. Well, if you do believe that keeping the commandments sufficiently will get you to heaven, shouldn't you be judgmental? Like, if you see someone thinking about getting a tattoo, that just might be the thing that pushes them over and, sorry, you're out because you did this. And so we should nudge them, maybe shame them, do anything you have to do so that that commandment, whatever commandment, even if we've kind of made up the commandment, isn't necessarily broken. But on the other hand, when it's all about Jesus and trying to follow him, honestly, you know, the For Strength of Youth pamphlet, it went from this do list to ask God if you're thinking about tattoo. Ask him. Well, the thing is, unless you're converted, asking him, you're not even really inclined towards God yet. And so, yeah, legalism is all about the focus on the checklist, while the new covenant that Jesus came to give is all the focus on him and following him. And I'm all in with Jesus. And, yeah, that makes it. It's liberating, honestly, because you don't have to reach some mythical level of perfection to make it. It's all about, am I honestly trying to follow Jesus? Yeah.
- [45:34]
Gordon B. Hinckley
Yeah.
- [45:35]
Kurt Francom
And this is the paradox of grace, as I frame it, is that, you know, when you surrender your life or you feel that complete love and acceptance, you can't help but turn to that source and say, how do I become like you? Like, that's amazing. I want to follow you. You know, I want to. I want to be with you. And so you'll naturally make the, you know, decisions and choices that legalism person would be like, yep, that's exactly what you're supposed to do. But. But you're doing it in a different cadence and a different. For a different purpose.
- [46:04]
John Bushman
Yeah. One of the chapters is, I think it's called Prohibition versus Regeneration. And Prohibition, well, that's when they couldn't drink alcohol in the 20s. But also prohibition is like all these don'ts. Don't do this, don't do that. And sometimes we. Okay, youth, here's all these things you shouldn't do. Regeneration, on the other hand, is when, like, the Book of Mormon teaches regeneration better than anything about how you no longer even desire to do evil. You abhor it. Before regeneration, before conversion, you want to get as close to the line as you can, you know, because you think there's something about that's good with sin. Regeneration, it's like, gross. Why would I even want to do that? So God starts to change our hearts when we're converted, when we've been born again. And, yeah, something's changed in us. No book teaches about rebirth better than the Book of Mormon. It's just. Yeah, it changes everything. It brings joy in Alma chapter 30. I think that's when Kori comes along. There's this un. Underlying theme in there of like, why do you want to teach this? To stop their rejoicing and joy. And rejoicing comes up all over in this because the gospel is just bringing this joy to the people. And I think so many people who have the mindset of legalism, they're just like. It's discouraging, it's this weight and it hurts. It's sad. I've been there. I was brought up that way. And you never feel good enough and you always feel condemned and self condemning half the time. And it just changes everything.
- [47:42]
Kurt Francom
Yeah. Because you know that what is the. That. What's the opposite? Prohibition. What word did you.
- [47:47]
John Bushman
Regeneration.
- [47:47]
Kurt Francom
Regeneration. Yeah. Like. And this is because that regeneration makes us a new creature. Right. And that's what Jesus does. Right. We often joke, you know, you have people joke about in heaven where we can just eat whatever you want. Like we just eat pie and ice cream all day and. Because that's what heaven is. When in reality we don't do that because we're new creatures and we won't even want the pie or ice cream. And I don't know how, you know, the, the menu works in heaven, but just the point being that we've overcome it. Not because we now get to indulge in what we didn't get to indulge in in the world, but we are now on a whole different level. Right. Where as opposed to just. Well, now you have to sit there and look at the buffet and be like, oh, I'm not supposed to eat that. And that's not reviving, you know.
- [48:27]
John Bushman
Yeah. I bet you there were sins when you were a teenager that were really tempting that now you're just like, like for me, confession time. The word of wisdom. The 80s was a different time. And I was really like to smoke. I was very tempted. It was just like, wow, that's so cool looking. I never did. But now that's gross. Honestly gross. And there's other sins too. That, whoa, that kind of looks and like, no way, you know, it's not even tempting.
- [48:59]
Kurt Francom
I could.
- [49:00]
John Bushman
I wouldn't ever.
- [49:01]
Kurt Francom
Yeah. So yeah. And that's a tricking with that repentance and that because repentance is, you know, we're repenting over and over in order to become something new. Right through Jesus Christ and his grace and so forth. And you know, as I talk with some where they're just, they want the. Okay, what's the five step plan? So this goes away. What's the five step plan? So that cigarettes do look disgusting to me, right? Like or. And it's sort of like, well it's more of like just. Or yourself to Jesus repenting and striving to have relationship with him. And then one day you wake up and you're like, wait a minute, like it wasn't like this moment where like wow, that the desire suddenly left me, right. It's just this natural progression and that mortality is tricky that way because we want the event of being like. And today I am over it.
- [49:45]
John Bushman
You know, and honestly regeneration, there are times that things that, oh, I'm still really tempted that way. And it's not like once you have this conversion experience, we don't believe it's this one time event. Like maybe others believe it's constant. In fact, every week, okay, Lord, I want to follow you better and think about you more this week. And so we'll still have to struggle with the natural man and say no to ourselves for the rest of our lives. But it's so much easier with Jesus.
- [50:14]
Kurt Francom
That's why it's better framed as a relationship rather than just doing, doing the stuff they're doing.
- [50:19]
John Bushman
Which used to be taboo to say, even talk about relationship with Jesus Christ. And we could talk a time about that.
- [50:26]
Kurt Francom
But like in our church it was taboo or. Yeah. And why was that? I mean, what.
- [50:31]
John Bushman
In the early 80s there was this time that a professor at BYU was talking about having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and general authority. He came to BYU and gave a talk at BYU.
- [50:46]
Kurt Francom
Is this the Seven Heresies talk?
- [50:48]
John Bushman
No, no, it's the same Bruce R. McConkie. He talked pretty directly that it's inappropriate to have a personal relate. You seek a personal relationship. He talks about you should have this reverential barrier, in fact, and that caused a ripple effect that was not good. Now luckily church leaders since then like Elder Holland and others have gone push far the other direction, have said very directly about it is good to have a personal relationship with God. And heck, if you're not having a personal relationship, are you having a impersonal relationship? You know, what does that even mean?
- [51:28]
Kurt Francom
But and to me that's like at the core of our theology of like, you know, I think other Christian, you know, Protestant denominations would definitely, you know, they want a relationship with Jesus, right? But we take it so far that we build beautiful temples and, and go there and have a ceremony to like literally marry Jesus, right? Like we are stepping into covenant with Jesus. And so to me it's just like such at the core and the uniqueness of our theologies. We really take that relationship to a different level.
- [51:58]
John Bushman
And.
- [51:58]
Kurt Francom
And I love it.
- [51:59]
John Bushman
Yeah. And we talk about that's in the last few conferences, a covenant relationship with the Lord. But be careful. Don't think just because I've been baptized or I take the sacrament, I have a relationship any more than my wife and I got married 32 years ago. So I have a relationship with her.
- [52:17]
Kurt Francom
I haven't seen her in 10 years, but yeah.
- [52:19]
John Bushman
Yeah, it's actual relationship. You know, the young men, young women theme is walk with me. What does that mean outside of relationship? You know, like, if I go for a walk with my wife, it's. We're close, we're in proximity. There's. You're experiencing. We're right next to each other.
- [52:36]
Kurt Francom
And.
- [52:37]
John Bushman
And that's what we need to have with the Lord in our lives, like today. Lord, I want to be close to you and. And walk, you know, wherever you want to go, I'm going with you. And it's beautiful.
- [52:47]
Kurt Francom
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I wonder. Maybe two questions left, but if people want to check out the book, obviously Amazon's got. Is it on? Is it. Everybody asks, is it on audible or things like that? Or is it coming.
- [52:59]
John Bushman
It's being in the audible thing. It's not there yet. In the process, yeah, it's being. Chapters are coming in, but I hope by the end of April. But April 1st is terrible day for a book to come out, but April 1st it's out. And so, yeah, and Amazon also. Cedar Fort. So, yeah, I think it will bless your life. It's not because anything of me. I think, you know, there's just really the goodness is from the Lord in there, and I think it's beautiful. Very well worth it.
- [53:31]
Kurt Francom
Cool. So just sum it up for us. Wrap it up as far as, like, from talking to maybe an audience of church leaders, like, how can we better simulate the revival? Because there's often times where I'm like, well, I know we're doing the king thing this week, but also this. There's the kingdom thing. And, and.
- [53:48]
John Bushman
And you need both.
- [53:49]
Kurt Francom
That's right. So everything you've said, sum it up, like, how can you encourage them to be part of the revival of focusing on the king and not the kingdom,
- [53:57]
John Bushman
Getting people to seek the Lord, getting people to. It's a tough word, but surrender. Because we want to do life our way. And, Lord, I want to do it your way. I'm done doing it my way. That's where that conversion happens and keep whether through the sacrament, through the things we teach, pointing to the Savior, making it so people can see that he's someone they can trust. Honestly, one reason people don't really give themselves over to God is because they have resentment in their life. They're wondering, like, hey, I've been trying to do what's right and things aren't working out. Come on, why aren't you there for me? And to help people see God's goodness, his love. And I think in the book, it's really structured that way of getting rid of these kind of obstacles we have in the way of coming to the Lord and also how to see the Lord differently. So you want to come to the Lord and. Yeah, just little tweaks, little, sometimes very small adjustments make a huge difference. Like a carburetor. I know no one has a carburetor anymore in their car. It's fuel injection. But it used to be like, with a screwdriver, you change how the oxygen intake a little bit and suddenly a car that was coughing change it and suddenly, vroom, vroom. It's like this beautiful thing. And as a church, little small adjustments and can make a beautiful change. I hope there is this revival that happens because I think we are on a precipice of something incredible. You've noticed that all over, in and out of the church, people are talking about the Lord more and differently. And I think the Lord is trying to do something amazing. And it's really up to us. And as church leaders, we need to, you know, as church leaders, we're the ones that affirm. And ultimately church leaders, they say, okay, is this a good idea? Is it not a good idea? Maybe it's a good idea, but the wrong time. And so we need to take things up with the Lord. And I think we're on the. Again, the precipice of something amazing.
- [56:07]
Kurt Francom
That concludes this episode of the Leading Saints podcast. Hey, listen, would you do me a favor? You know, everybody's got that friend who listens to a ton of podcasts, and maybe they aren't aware of Leading Saints. So would you mind taking the link of this episode or another episode of Leading Saints and just texting it to that friend, you know who I'm talking about, the friend who always listens to podcasts and is always telling you about different podcasts. Well, it's your turn to tell that friend about leading Leading Saints, so share it. We'd also love to hear from you if you have any perspective or thought on this episode. You can go to leadingsaints.org and actually leave a comment on the episode page or reach out to us@LeadingSaints.org contact.
- [56:55]
Gordon B. Hinckley
It came as a result of the position of leadership which was imposed upon us by the God of Heaven, who brought forth a restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. And when the declaration was made concerning the only true and living Church upon the face of the earth, we were immediately put in a position of loneliness, the loneliness of leadership from which we cannot shrink nor run away, and to which we must face up with boldness and courage and ability.