Covenant Discipleship Without a Calling | An Interview with Tesiah Frame

Summary

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Leading Saints Podcast Ep. — Covenant Discipleship Without a Calling | Interview with Tesiah Frame

Date: July 18, 2026
Host(s): Leading Saints Team
Guest: Tesiah Frame
Main Theme: Empowering Latter-day Saints, especially women, to engage in meaningful covenant discipleship and leadership independent of official callings.

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Episode Overview

This episode explores how Latter-day Saints—and especially women—can step into purposeful, Christlike influence in their communities regardless of formal church callings. Through an engaging interview with online creator Tesiah Frame, the conversation covers proactive faith, women’s experiences within the church, practical Relief Society advice, leveraging scriptural women as models, managing social media, and supporting both men and women in their church involvement.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Stepping Into Leadership Without a Calling

• Tesiah's Purpose Online:
  Tess shares her motivation for creating online content: to represent her authentic, optimistic experience as a woman in the Church, contrasting with prevailing negative narratives.

  “I saw so many voices about the women's experience in the church, and I was like, that's not representative of my experience. … I'm going to just jump in there and contribute my experience…” (04:08)

• Church is the People:
  Many members wait for systemic change, but local action is vital. Recognizing a need is often a spiritual prompting—members can act immediately to solve local issues without waiting for higher approval:

  “That feeling that you just felt where you recognized a need and you wish someone would do something about it. That is the spirit telling you this is a problem. You can fix this.” (10:33)

• Libertarian Mindset in Church Culture:
  Both hosts and Tess align on the value of localized, grassroots solutions over top-down programs, noting that overgovernance can stifle meaningful action and create dependency.

  "...Programs are created to solve a need and all it does is create dependency on the program." (11:53)

2. Women’s Experience & Relief Society Influence

• Relief Society Autonomy & Hierarchy:
  Tess identifies occasional accidental hierarchy in wards, with some bishops limiting Relief Society influence. She urges women to focus on Relief Society's true purpose—providing relief—rather than just activities.

  “The organization as a whole is meant to provide relief, which is something we do not need permission for. That really is. We see a need, we meet it.” (15:05)

• Advice for Those Facing Barriers:
  Practical tips for RS leaders or members when faced with leadership roadblocks:

  • Privately address barriers with the bishop
  • Pursue what can be accomplished without formal approval
  • “Just do something” when possible

  “…For the leadership, it's just, see what can be done. Where you need approval, you need approval... But really my encouragement is just do something.” (15:43)

• Ministering & the "Shrink and Expand" Principle:
  If formal avenues are blocked, find ways to serve and connect informally (e.g. hosting groups at home, personal ministering).

  “...We respect that authority and the keys… so we shrink in that area, but then find other areas to expand.” (17:30)

3. Scriptural Women as Models of Covenant Discipleship

• Old Testament Examples:
  Tess discusses Ruth, Rahab, Sarah, Rebecca, Rachel, and others, highlighting their complexity, faith, flaws, and influence, drawing parallels to modern women’s spiritual journeys:

  “...They're these flawed women who... we can relate to the pain that they go through and the desires that they have and the prayers that they utter, but then also their flaws…” (19:53)

• Continuity in Women’s Stories:
  Emphasizes generational and relational patterns between scriptural women—urges holistic study, not isolating stories.

  “There are a lot of parallels. If you start looking at the women as a group... don't study Sarah and Abraham isolated from Rebecca and Isaac and then isolated from Rachel and Jacob.” (26:07)

• Resources & Study Tips:
  Tess recommends using AI or reference tools like Strong’s Concordance and combining creative and systematic approaches to study women in scripture.

  “Honestly, AI tools are probably really helpful for this... scan the Old Testament and show me all of the women in the scriptures and give me the bullet points of their biggest contributions…” (23:37)

4. Dealing with Social Media as a Woman of Faith

• Navigating Negativity:
  Tess actively chooses to focus on uplifting Latter-day Saint women seeking purpose and joy, rather than responding to online detractors, keeping her audience’s needs central:

  “...I'm not actually aiming my content at non members and certainly not at people who hate my church. I'm talking specifically to women in my church who... are wanting to find a lot more joy and fun in their faith...” (28:46)

• Social Media’s “Addictive” Design:
  She warns of social media’s intentionally addictive and divisive algorithms, suggesting self-awareness and intentional peacemaking.

  “...It is designed on purpose to be very addictive to you. So the reason that you feel like you can't stop checking it is because they want that.” (33:44)

• Comparison Trap:
  Tess notes that women are evolutionarily wired to notice differences for survival, but that social media amplifies this in unhealthy, unsustainable ways:

  “That's a primitive trait. It becomes negative when we use that to fuel our dissatisfaction...” (37:30)

5. Expanding and Reframing Relief Society’s Purpose

• Historical & Foundational Perspective:
  Relief Society began as a selective, women-exclusive support network and remains fundamentally about providing relief and community trust at a local level.

  “...The establishment of the Relief Society began as application based... The point was that women would come together to help and support each other or receive support.” (42:08)

• Local vs. Global Humanitarian Impact:
  Members shouldn't only focus on international efforts—the heart of Relief Society is local, immediate support and trust.

  “...Don't forget that it's local first.” (46:18)

• All Women Belong:
  RS is for every woman in the ward, regardless of visible contribution—avoid cliques and exclusion.

  “…All the women at church are part of this organization, whether they attend or not, whether they contribute or not. Like, this organization is for everyone.” (43:19)

6. Addressing Men’s Needs in the Church

• Gaps in Male Connection and Support:
  Tess and the host discuss how church programming often leaves men’s emotional and social needs under-addressed.

  “I think the men are getting the shaft right now. ...the emotional and connective community needs of the men are overlooked...” (48:05)

• Patriarchy & Pendulum Swings:
  Concern about a cultural swing in focus from men to women, highlighting the importance of boosting both, not simply reversing old patterns.

  “...We should be boosting both, not just one.” (53:43)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Local Action and Leadership

• “The church is you. Like, we are the church.” (09:36, Tess Frame)
• “That's how it should work.” (12:10, Tess Frame)
• “Just do something.” (16:33, Tess Frame)

On Women in Scripture

• “Ruth... commits to the covenant. ...This is also a statement of loyalty to the covenant... what can we as sisters in the covenant do for each other?” (22:30, Tess Frame)

On Social Media Addiction

• “Anger is an addiction. ...Your brain gets this really satisfying hit every time you see something just. Even if it’s just a little bit triggering...” (33:44, Tess Frame)
• “It’s a similar phenomenon with social media; you’re seeing the account and a response is being triggered on purpose...” (35:44, Tess Frame)

On Relief Society

• “Women really are the helpers. That is so deeply our role. We are meant to be nurturing spirits. ...Everybody has something that they can contribute to the group as a whole.” (44:08, Tess Frame)

On Men’s Church Experience

• “I think the men are getting the shaft right now. ...the emotional and connective community needs of the men are overlooked...” (48:05, Tess Frame)
• “We should be boosting both, not just one.” (53:43, Tess Frame)

On Christlike Leadership as a Mother

• “All mothers are leaders... I think being able to have that kind of maternal compassion is very Christlike.” (56:04, Tess Frame)

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Important Timestamps

• Tesiah's faith-expanding birth story: 06:14–08:55
• Leadership without a calling—local action: 09:05–12:34
• Women and hierarchy in church service: 12:34–15:43
• Ministering and practical Relief Society advice: 16:33–18:44
• Scriptural women’s influence: 18:46–23:37
• Resources for scripture study: 23:37–25:24
• Social media’s manipulative design: 33:44–37:03
• Comparative mindset and its dangers: 37:30–39:33
• Historical Relief Society perspective: 42:08–46:04
• Local vs. global in Relief Society service: 46:18–47:07
• Gaps in male emotional support: 47:43–52:16
• Motherhood and Christlike compassion: 56:04–57:15

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Additional Resources Mentioned

• Come Follow Me Podcast: Certain Women Podcast with Becky Squire (@certainwomenpodcast)
• Children’s Faith Brand: Happy Sacrament (happysacrament.com)
• Book: Daughters in My Kingdom (LDS Church publication on RS history)
• Study Tool: Strong’s Concordance

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Conclusion

Tesiah Frame’s perspective invites Latter-day Saints—especially women—to claim spiritual agency, solve local problems, and deepen discipleship beyond formal callings. Her scriptural models and practical advice challenge old hierarchies, encourage local ministering, and highlight both the pitfalls and opportunities of social media. Critically, she also calls attention to under-addressed needs among men in the church, emphasizing the importance of community, compassion, and mutual support in building Zion.

Transcript

[Host 1]

Hey everyone, you probably don't know this, but Leading Saints is not just a podcast. I know in the past we've been known as a podcast, but now Leading Saints is an online platform, an online community that we call Zion Lab because we are focused on not just preparing leaders to be better prepared to lead, but we want to help everybody, regardless of their church calling, to build Zion. And Zion Lab is the place to it's the laboratory of Zion, if you will, to step into, share your ideas, best practices. What are you doing in a specific calling? What are you doing outside of a calling? Where do you feel inspired? What are other people doing? And it is becoming such a dynamic, phenomenal community. And there's an AI bot in there that you can ask questions to. And it will scour the archives of the Leading Saints. What has it been since 2010 we've been creating content. It will scour those archives and give you a specific answer to the content that you're looking for. So come join us over at Zion Lab, which you can [e-mail] Zion. Let's talk about the plague of pornography for just a minute.

[Tess Frame]

Wow.

[Host 1]

This is one of the biggest issues that so many deal with in these latter days, but few talk about it or even know how to talk about it. And when they do talk about it, it's usually in a private setting with a leader who is expected to know how to navigate struggles with pornography. Thankfully, Leading Saints has put together a remarkable resource called Liberating Saints. It's a virtual library with 25 plus presentations focused on helping leaders be better prepared to help someone overcome struggles with pornography. We cover topics like how to minimize shame in the Bishop's office, how to talk with children about pornography, and even how to talk about female pornography use in Relief Society. If you'd like to review the Liberating Saints library at no cost for 14 days, simply go to leadingsaints.org 14. That's leadingsaints.org 1 4. While you're at it, we'll give you access to all of our virtual libraries that cover several leadership related topics. So click the link in the show notes or simply visit leadingsaints.org 14. Have you seen Tess frames content online?

[Host 2]

You've got to check it out. I'm so excited to invite her into the Leading Saints podcast for this discussion

[Host 1]

because she does such wonderful she is a Zion builder.

[Host 2]

I mean, she's such a great example of this where an individual who's putting

[Host 1]

content out there explaining what it looks like to show up as a disciple of Jesus Christ as a covenant bearer to step into our faith tradition, into our communities, and say, okay, I may not have a specific calling that gives me, quote, unquote, permission to do A, B and C, but you know what? I want to have an impact.

[Host 2]

I want to have an influence on my community, on the world at large,

[Host 1]

as a disciple of Jesus Christ.

[Host 2]

And you can see quickly by checking out her content just how effective that is.

[Host 1]

So I wanted to bring her in

[Host 2]

to the Leading Saints podcast and just

[Host 1]

have a discussion around this.

[Host 2]

As far as the.

[Host 1]

The women's experience in the church, she

[Host 2]

highlights women in the scriptures and just

[Host 1]

how they have inspired her to step into this covenant discipleship life that she leads.

[Host 2]

And then as far as the Relief

[Host 1]

Society experience, how can women show up differently there?

[Tess Frame]

How can.

[Host 1]

Especially when there's like that hierarchy that

[Host 2]

kind of feels heavy or, you know,

[Host 1]

I don't know if we can do

[Host 2]

this because maybe the Relief Society presidency doesn't want to do it, or you

[Host 1]

are in the Relief Society presidency and you're like, well, my bishopric doesn't want

[Host 2]

to do this, but I feel inspired

[Host 1]

to lead the women a certain way.

[Host 2]

And anyways, just phenomenal concepts to consider. And you're going to enjoy this episode.

[Host 1]

I encourage you to drop this link

[Host 2]

into an email or into a text message and share it with somebody who comes to mind. And they will. They'll thank you for it.

[Host 1]

So here's my interview with Tess Frame.

[Host 2]

All right, Tess Frame, welcome to the Leading Saints podcast.

[Tess Frame]

Thanks so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

[Host 2]

Now, you're. You're kind of Instagram famous at this point, right? I know you probably don't want to, like, put yourself on that pedestal, but

[Host 1]

I see your content all the time.

[Tess Frame]

That's so fun. I'm so glad my stuff is getting out there. I set out to just kind of contribute to the conversation. I saw so many voices of about the women's experience in the church, and I was like, that's not representative of my experience. And so I was like, I'm going to just jump in there and contribute my experience and give hopefully, you know, just maybe not a wholly representative perspective on it, but at least representing my experience.

[Host 2]

So, yeah, and it seems like, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but there's sort of like this entourage of ladies in the church like you that. And I know you're all friends and connected and share each other's content. Is.

[Host 1]

Is that true?

[Host 2]

Like, you're all sort of have this Mission of representing women. Well, Latter day women. Well, online.

[Tess Frame]

Yeah. I mean, I think that there are so many women who felt that at the same time, and there kind of was just this uprising of female influencers who wanted to represent that in a more like in a more optimistic and accurate light than what media was typically portraying. But an entourage, Is that a bad

[Host 2]

way to frame it?

[Tess Frame]

Well, I'm like, if there is, I'm not part of it because I'm located in Southern California.

[Host 2]

Okay.

[Tess Frame]

And so many of these LDS creators are based in Utah. So I'm like, I actually feel a little bit on the outside. I have so much fomo. When they have all the events and stuff, I'm like, oh, I wish I

[Host 2]

was there, to be honest. Like, my wife and I, we would love to live anywhere outside of like Idaho and Utah and those areas. But as a content, as a Latter Day Saint content creator, it is very convenient to be in Utah. And with all that's happening here, you

[Tess Frame]

know, the networking is unbeatable. Yeah.

[Host 2]

Yeah. So maybe someday when I retire from this content world, but we'll see. Well, very cool. Now I, I risk completely taking us off the direction we're headed. But just really quick, and this is, this deserves like old podcast series, but I was going through your content and I came across the various stories that you delivered one of your babies while you were in a coma.

[Tess Frame]

Yes.

[Host 2]

So what's the. Give us the quick story there.

[Tess Frame]

Well, it's crazy. I wasn't really there, so everything I know about it has just been told to me. But yeah, I was in a coma with lung failure in late pregnancy. And it was so risky for the baby that they delivered him while I was sedated. And so I woke up and didn't know how I had gotten there. But I also didn't know that I wasn't pregnant anymore. So it was a pretty traumatic experience for us and for our family. And the post traumatic stress recovery period for several years was definitely harder than the physical recovery. But yeah, it was a very faith expanding experience also.

[Host 2]

So did the lung failure come just as a result of the pregnancy or.

[Tess Frame]

No, I got the flu in late pregnancy, which late pregnancy can exacerbate illnesses that you would normally just. You get better after three or four days. But I think just being so crowded in here made it just, you can't cough effectively. And that's like a really important part of getting better from a respiratory illness is getting the fluid out. And I couldn't cough, so I. It just, it turned into pneumonia. And then sepsis and then organ failure.

[Host 2]

So did the. What's the word? Did the doctors put you in the coma? Is that.

[Tess Frame]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

Is that the idea? Wow.

[Tess Frame]

Yeah. Interesting. I think they saw. They saw my condition. They saw my blood oxygen levels. It was in the 70s. A healthy adult should be in the 90s or like, as close to 100 as possible. And I was in the 70s. And so they were like, this is a. Like, we're worried about brain damage for the baby with blood oxygen this low. So. So they put me under general anesthesia, I guess.

[Host 2]

You were there, but not there.

[Tess Frame]

Delivered the baby. Yeah.

[Host 2]

Holy cow. And so how long were you sedated then?

[Tess Frame]

So they put me under general anesthesia. I think the plan was actually that they put me under general anesthesia to do the C section right away, but then I couldn't be extubated. I was not able to breathe on my own. I was dependent on that. So I think I stayed sedated for two weeks. And then they did. Then they. They do breathing trials. They try to bring you out of it because there's limits to how much, like, your body becomes more and more dependent on it. So they try to bring you out, and then if you fail, they put you back on. And I failed. They put me back on. And then another week later, they. I failed again, and they ended up traking me. So I've got the scar from,

[Host 2]

you know, giving birth. Scar that.

[Tess Frame]

No, no, not typical. Not ideal.

[Host 2]

Wow, that's fascinating. So was that your youngest, or do you have children after that?

[Tess Frame]

That was my youngest. That was my third son, and he's seven now.

[Host 2]

Oh, wow. Wow, what a journey. And obviously, there's so probably filled with miracles and stories and faith development and all that. Right?

[Tess Frame]

So, yes, absolutely.

[Host 2]

So with your content, what I've really appreciate about it, we featured some of it on the Leading Saints account and so forth. But just this approach of. I don't know if it'd be. And I'll let you frame it better, but like, calling or finding purpose in the church and. And just leading out, you know, without waiting around for. To be told what to do or be told what your calling is. Is that like a common theme that you have in your content?

[Tess Frame]

Yes, it's something that has come up a few times because I see people. People will say things like, they're agreeing with me. They're like, yes, I love this. I wish the church would change this thing. And so I see this narrative a lot that members have. Like, I just wish the church would do this. And I'm like, the church is you. Like, we are the church. Yeah, you don't need to wait for somebody to make a system wide change. You can actually just fix that problem right now. So I also tend to be the type of person that like, I would prefer to just take action and then apologize if it was the wrong thing. I'm like, I'm not gonna wait for permission, I'm not gonna ask. I don't need anyone's permission to do stuff, you know. So especially with issues that you might see on a local scale in the church or in your specific congregation, things like somebody feels left out or needs are not being met or, you know, the, the youth organization is really struggling or whatever it is. It's like that is a local problem, that is not a systemic problem. And you know who fixes that is the locals. So yes, I like to encourage people to just identify that need. And especially because people don't recognize that them identifying the need and thinking to themselves, man, someone should really do something about that. That is a prompting, that feeling that you just felt where you recognized a need and you wish someone would do something about it. That is the spirit telling you this is a problem. You can fix this. Someone could fix this. Maybe it's you. So I like to encourage members to take some initiative.

[Host 2]

Yeah, now we're, we're definitely kindred spirits in this area where. And much, you know, just with my work with leading saints over the, over the years and you know, assessing issues or cultural dynamics and things, I've become much more of like this libertarian type of person in relation to the church where people say, I wish the church would do A, B and C and everybody's got their thing right. Like, yeah, the church would just do whatever. And I'm always like, whoa, whoa, whoa. I don't think you want the church to do that. And let me give you several reasons why. And there are examples in the past where I feel like when the institutional church steps forward and creates programs and policies and things, it doesn't fit everywhere. And then it's just, it's never a great fit for the local church. But if it's driven by the local church, it could be a really good fit, you know?

[Host 1]

Yes.

[Tess Frame]

And the libertarian mindset is a great way to describe that where you're really just like, I just want to be governed less. I just want to be like. And when sometimes programs are incredible and like we need them, but sometimes programs are created to solve a need and all it does is create dependency on the program.

[Host 2]

Right.

[Tess Frame]

So, yeah. And that's what we want to avoid. And I really think that is what the church is trying to avoid. The church, meaning like the church organization, they're trying to get us away from dependency on that third hour, away from dependency on the Scouting program. And, you know, so they're like, no, this is home centered. This is you. You are the church, and we are here to support you and your decisions. So it really is. That's how it should work.

[Host 2]

Yeah. And then how does this concept. What's the uniqueness of this as far as your experience as a woman in the church? I mean, is there any different approaches that. Because sometimes it can feel like, you know, the men have the. Are calling the shots, you know, because of the priesthood and keys and things like that. But what's that experience like for women?

[Tess Frame]

I think a lot of women probably do feel that way that, like, and there may be. Not just that they feel that way, but there may be ward situations where it's like the Relief Society can't get anything done because the bishop wants to approve everything first. You know, where it's like there does feel like there just is this barrier of approval that she has to meet and she's not able to act in full capacity in her stewardship. And I do see that as. I don't want to call it a problem because the bishop is the, you know, the father of the ward. But also when that position of leadership is used to the extent that it is now prohibiting other leaders from doing their jobs and supporting you as the main leader, then now it's creating barriers and it's creating a hierarchy which we should be avoiding. So I think as women, what I've seen is women really are very action oriented and most women really will try to just fix problems. But yeah, I think on a local level sometimes that the leadership, the way that it's organized, can lead to accidental hierarchy.

[Host 2]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Host 1]

So what would you say to a

[Host 2]

relief setting presidency or even women in general, as far as, like, if you met my bishop, Tess, you would understand just how difficult this is. And, you know, he's ruling with an iron fist or we can't get anything done or. I mean, what advice would you give to that group of people?

[Tess Frame]

I have had leadership situations like this, and I want to be careful because I love these people dearly. So I don't.

[Host 2]

It's all good intentions.

[Tess Frame]

Yes, of course. And everyone is leading in the way that they know how. But I have found myself where, like, I am just totally mentally Murmuring against people that the Lord has called and not that feedback is never allowed, but also to the point where, you know, if you're talking about this with friends and you're actively undermining leadership, that's also not productive. So I would say Relief Society presidents, like, what can we do? The purpose of the Relief Society is not just, like, bring treats and deliver cookies and have craft nights. Like, that's not the point. Those are great things because those do actually serve local relationships and build community. And, like, you are ministering to the one on a small scale, which is important. But, like, the organization as a whole is meant to provide relief, which is something we do not need permission for. That really is. We see a need, we meet it. You can bring meals to new families in the ward. You can organize, like, dinners for eight. You pick four families in the ward, and you just randomly can assign. Like, we're going to just shuffle families so that everybody gets to know new people. We're not developing these cliques. You don't need precinct approval for that. So I really think being a Relief Society, Relief Society organizer or member, it comes down to, where can I provide relief?

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Tess Frame]

So for the leadership, it's just, see what can be done. Where you need approval, you need approval, and that's, you know, that's something you have to work out with your local bishop. And maybe that's something. If that's a barrier, you have a private conversation with him. As a president and as a bishop that, like, I feel like I am being inhibited in my stewardship here. These are the things that I agree that should get approval from you and that we should work together on. But these are the things that I feel like I should be able to act without being held up or having, like, delays, because a lot of times bishops have jobs and they can't get back to you right away, or they. They're ministering to their people, you know, so it's like, it just causes this chain reaction of slowness or extra communication that's not always necessary. So really my encouragement is just do something.

[Host 2]

Yeah, yeah, that's really good. And not to mention, I mean, there's also really ambitious women in the world who are not in official Release Society presidencies or roles who are maybe even feeling the same drive. But then it's like, well, I'm not the Release Study presidency, so I can't do that. You know, I can't lead out or whatever. And when in reality, there's a lot that you can do and have impact Absolutely.

[Tess Frame]

And that is, to me, I think, of the ministering program. I'm like, what that's for is that basically you see a need and you meet it. You don't need approval, you don't need organization. You just figure out, based on who you're talking to and who you're friends with, whose family needs a priesthood blessing. Can your husband offer that? Can you call their home teacher or, you know, their minister? Can you call their. The bishop? Can you call somebody to come help? You can help organize those things without putting it on someone else. I think that is the point of the ministering program, is to put each member in charge of what they notice.

[Host 2]

Yeah. And I've often seen this where. And I. I frame it, as I call it, that my shrink and expand principle, where maybe, let's say you're in a Relief Society presidency and you have this inspiration, this idea that, oh, we're going to do this monthly activity, and it's going to be focused on, I don't know, like family or, you know what, insert whatever principle. And we're going to meet every. Every month on a Saturday. We're going to do this and that. And then you take it to the bishopric, and they're like, nope, we don't got the budget. Our focus is elsewhere. We're not doing that. You can kind of feel deflated, like. But no, I felt really driven there. I wanted to do that. Right. And so, again, we respect that. That authority and the keys, which they're directing the ward by. And so we shrink in that area, but then find other areas to expand. So then it's like, well, I'm going to do it my own house. I'm going to invite five women that I'm close to in the ward, and we're going to do. Do that on the home level. Right now, the bishop can't come and say, you can't do that in your home. Like, do what? I'm sorry. No, this is my home. This is. I determine what happens here. Right. You may not announce it as an official church program, but you're still having impact in the lives of women. And then you could get some momentum and then grow, and then everybody wants to be a part of it. Right. So there's always this opportunity to step back and say, okay, like, I've got some resistance there. I'm going to see where else I can have impact and expand my influence.

[Tess Frame]

Yes, absolutely.

[Guest or Additional Speaker]

Cool.

[Host 2]

Tell me about. I know you've been, like, inspired by different figures, you know, women figures in. In the Bible or in the scriptures. What comes to mind with that? And how do they inspire you?

[Tess Frame]

Okay. Wow. There's so many. And we're studying the Old Testament right now, and I feel like every book has at least one or two really incredible women. And sometimes they're. Sometimes what we're learning is that they have, like, massive influence. Not for the better. Some of these women murmur. And some of them, like Delilah, like, sever the covenant. And, like, you know, they. They have. But they have massive influence, all of them. And what I love is, like, finding continuity in their stories and seeing how each of these women relates to each other and, like, either genealogically or just spiritually, that something they went through is similar. Like, you have Sarah, Rebecca, and Rachel, three generations of women in a row who all struggled with infertility and all said special prayers and were granted fertility later. Like, later than they felt was fair. So you've got this cluster. And some of them were, like. They were righteous women. They were. They were receiving revelation from angels, but they also were, like, tricking. Like, Rachel tricked Jacob, you know, so it's like they're. They're these flawed women who. And I think we can relate to the pain that they go through and the desires that they have and the prayers that they utter, but then also their flaws that they. Like Sarah. Sarah laughed at the revelation that she would bear Isaac in her old age. And she's like, yeah, sure, you know, and then Rachel, you know, tricking. Sorry, Jacob. Right.

[Host 2]

Yeah, I believe.

[Guest or Additional Speaker]

So.

[Tess Frame]

Like, I'm mixing up all my.

[Host 2]

I know. Yeah. There's a lot. There's a lot of stories.

[Tess Frame]

And then we look later at, like, Rahab is a woman in the city of Jericho. She's a prostitute woman who is outside of the covenant. She's a Moabite, and she harbors Israelite spies. And that action contributes to the fall of Jericho, which is important because Israel needs to inherit that land and kick the Canaanites out. And so. But she's a Canaanite. And so you see her conversion and her help in the purpose, and then because of that, she is blessed to be in the lineage of the Savior. So it's like, wow, you see these ways that women can contribute to the work by just, like, letting spies stay in their house, by waiting in patience for their baby. For, like, Ruth is another one who, by the way, marries Boaz's son. Or, sorry, Rahab is Boaz's mother. And so that's where that genealogy, continuity comes in. It's really cool to look at it Like a whole fan chart. Anyway, Ruth now is another mobi woman and she commits to the covenant. And the declaration that she makes to Naomi is not just her saying, your God will be my God. Where. Where you go, I will go. She's not just saying, I'll stay with you because your husband also died. My husband died. We need someone to take care of us. It's not just a, like, statement of personal loyalty. This is also a statement of loyalty to the covenant. That she's like, no, I have been converted. My God is your God now. I'm staying here. I'm not going back to my family of origin just because my husband in the covenant is dead, which the other daughter in laws did. They went back. So you see this incredible commitment. And what I love is that that statement of commitment, of faith that she's staying with the covenant, but she's also staying with this woman who I'm sure she has grown to be close with. This statement is between woman and woman. And most of the time when we see declaration of covenant, it's either between man and woman or between man and God. And so woman to woman is a really incredible, sweet thing that we see Ruth do. And it makes me think, like, what can we as sisters in the covenant do for each other? We make our covenants with God and then now our job is to lift, lift each other, share the gospel, unite families for eternity, do the Lord's work, ease one another's burdens. You know, like, there's all these covenants that we make in baptism and in the temple. And these scriptural figures are great examples of either the carrying out of those covenants or the failure to keep those covenants. And we see the consequences. So I just love Ruth in particular, sticks out to me because this happens to be the week that we're studying her. And I just think, man, how have I not only declared my commitment to the Savior, to my fellow sisters, but also declared that because I'm committed to the Savior, I will stay with them?

[Host 2]

Yeah, that's powerful. Any advice on women or just, I guess anybody who wants to study the women in the scriptures better or I mean, any specific approach you have or resources you use or look to?

[Tess Frame]

Well, I have an advantage because I'm studying several weeks ahead for my own podcast. We do a Come Follow me podcast and it's geared towards the women. So I'm specifically searching for the women as we read. But honestly, there are like, you could search, give me a list of all the women in the scriptures. And you just can go through and comb through and read about them and what they've done. You can also. Honestly, AI tools are probably really helpful for this. They're not good at creative work, but they're really good at compiling work that's already there. So you can, say, scan the Old Testament and show me all of the women in the scriptures and give me the bullet points of their biggest contributions and why they're recorded in these books. And you can kind of read quickly through rather than like, being intimidated by the work as a whole. Not that there isn't value in the work as a whole, but.

[Host 2]

Right.

[Tess Frame]

If you're wanting to kind of. It's a lot. And if you're wanting to specifically pick out the women, this is one way that you can kind of do that quickly. I also love studying the Old Testament in particular with the resource Strong's Concordance. It's an index of the Hebrew and Greek origins of all the words. And it just deepens the study so much because you notice as you go that there are multiple meanings for certain words. And so then it's like if it was translated just slightly different, it means something different. Or you realize that there's actually a Hebrew metaphor at work that doesn't mean what it literally says or that their names mean something really special. Hannah, Samuel's mother. I forget what her name means, but I just recently looked it up and was like, her name is so significant. It has. It just adds to, like, the symbolism of her action. Like that her name represents who she actually is. So there's a lot that can be gained from looking at those kind of original languages, too.

[Host 2]

Yeah. And I'm sure that, I mean, there's obviously a great benefit of, you know, putting together a podcast where you're going to talk through this information. You know, going back to our conversation with church programs, they. What the church should do is mandate that we all, every member of the church has to start a Come Follow Me podcast.

[Tess Frame]

Yes.

[Host 2]

Because you gain so much from yes.

[Tess Frame]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

I'm also listening and saying teacher. Oh, yeah. Exactly. Right.

[Tess Frame]

And that helps, too.

[Host 2]

Yeah. Now some are wondering. Some days it seems like every member of the church has a Come Follow me podcast, but it's really highly recommended. It's good.

[Tess Frame]

I know. It's so funny.

[Host 2]

Anything else that has been mentioned as far as, like, women in the scriptures who lead or that you want to hit on before we move on?

[Tess Frame]

I think that's it. There's also, I guess one last thing would be. There are a lot of parallels. If you Start looking at the women as a group. Then you notice things like, don't study Sarah and Abraham isolated from Rebecca and Isaac and then isolated from Rachel and Jacob. It's like, man, this is a family. This is three generations of people. And then you look at how their problems are so similar and what is promised to each one. And then you look at Hannah and the prayer that she utters and how it's so similar to the prayer that Mary, the mother of Jesus, utters, like, a thousand years later. So there's just continuity with the women in the Scriptures. And I think, I think God wants us to notice that and see that, like, we're not different from them. We often will think that because in our brains it was so, so long ago that they must be very primitive. They must be a very, like, primitive version of us. They're the same. They have all the same problems. They are also just as smart. They are just as spiritually receptive. They have the same family connections and issues. So I think God wants us to notice that. And you really see it with the women.

[Host 2]

Yeah, right. That's awesome. And then going back to our discussion with, like, as far as the Relief Society experience or the women's church experience, like, is there any specific crossroads there? I mean, obviously the, the women in the, the Scriptures are inspiring and there's so much to consider about their approach or what, what to learn from them. Is there specific ways that you felt like these stories or these Bibles or scriptural figures have influenced just your experience as how you show up at a church or engage in the Gospel or be a disciple?

[Tess Frame]

You're saying specifically, like, the scriptural figures,

[Host 2]

did you just find inspiration there or is there more of a specific application that you found as you've studied those lives?

[Tess Frame]

I think it just. Yeah, it probably just depends on the woman and my state as I'm studying her and just like, what I'm specifically needing to learn or gain from that. But like I said, I'm studying Ruth this week and it just really struck me that, like, this commitment, woman to woman, is so special. And it is by her committing to her mother in law, she is committing to the covenant. So this connection, woman to woman, like, this is the spirit of the Relief Society, is that we commit to serve one another in the name of Jesus Christ, you know?

[Host 2]

Yeah, yeah, that's really good. How about any other, like, opportunities that you're always trying to communicate through your content? As far as opportunities for ways, whether. I don't know if it's always focused on Women or, you know, as a latter day Saint in general. But what are some other opportunities of ways we can show up or have impact or influence?

[Tess Frame]

Well, I get a lot of. I mean, anytime you're posting faith content online as a member of the church, you're going to get a lot of people who disagree with that. And so some of my content is like a comedic reaction to some of the stuff that I encounter. I try mostly I think I reached a point where I was like, I'm not actually aiming my content at non members and certainly not at people who hate my church. I'm talking specifically to women in my church who like, are wanting to find a lot more joy and fun in their faith and in their practices and also who are feeling like, what is my purpose? My purpose can't possibly just be baking cookies and needlepoint. That can't be it. Like, there's gotta be something bigger. And so I show up personally on my account with this, with the intent to connect with and inspire women who are active in the church to deepen their study, but also to like really dig and find the fun in it and find the joy in it, because that really should be the fruits. I feel like. Did I answer that question? I feel like I might have gone on a little tangent.

[Host 2]

No, that's good. I mean, just, you know, recognizing that there's moments of discontentment, but to then orient yourself towards the opportunities. Right. And that those. I think that's the target that you're aiming for. And because there are so many of these gravity of conflict or I can't believe that person said something, I'm going to respond to it or when in reality there's so many women in the church who are looking for deeper meaning and that's kind of where your, your bread and butter is, right?

[Tess Frame]

Yeah. And I'm the one getting, I'm getting a lot of that like, negativity online. And I realize it's not helpful actually for if I am talking specifically to active women in the church who are looking to deepen and have more fun and have more connection in their faith, it's not helpful for me to be like demonstrating all the time how I respond with comedy to people who hate my faith. They're not encountering that the way that on the scale that I am, because they're not doing the same thing that I'm doing. What are they dealing with? They're dealing with, my neighbor just moved in and she's pregnant. How can I help her? There's an inactive ward in or an inactive family in our ward, and my friend is best friends with their kid. My son is best friends with their kid. How do we inspire them or invite them without making them feel like we're pressuring them? Or we only want to be friends with them because we want to bring them back to church. Like, you know, how can we share our faith in an unintimidating way? And so I'm thinking they're dealing with lives on a local, real personal scale, not the widespread disagreement online that I encounter. Yeah, yeah. So I just kind of had to gear my content, like, who am I actually talking to and what are their problems?

[Host 2]

Yeah, that's really a helpful reality check. And I think you, obviously, you have to reconcile that as a content creator, maybe more than someone just passively consuming content. But, you know, I often hear things like, you know, the world has never been more divided, or our country's never our communities, or have never been more divided than today. But I'm like, maybe we've just never had as much social media as we do today.

[Tess Frame]

You're just seeing all of it.

[Host 2]

Yeah. And often frame social media as. The social media is the drug house in the neighborhood. Right. Like, if you walked into the drug house and got yelled at and assaulted and beat up and you went home and you're like, you will not believe what happened to me today. I went down straight to that drug house and got yelled at. Your family would look at you and

[Host 1]

say, well, that's because you went in the drug house.

[Host 2]

Like, don't go in the drug house anymore. Right. And I get it. I mean, I don't mean to totally frame social media negatively, but we always have to keep that in perspective. Like when those negative comments come, that's because the nature of that platform will, you know, stimulates that kind of reaction, or it emphasizes those voices that the everyday person who just going about their life, they don't walk through the grocery store and suddenly get yelled at or about their religion. Right.

[Tess Frame]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

So it's tricky. Tricky for sure.

[Tess Frame]

Absolutely.

[Host 2]

Any advice on. Because this is one thing, you know, and these are perceptions. I don't. I'm sure there's research behind it, but obviously social media is a unique power against women today, and it impacts women differently. And, you know, just like take Instagram, for instance. Like, that is. I mean, I use Instagram a lot, but it is primarily a female platform. Right. Like, the vast majority of people using Instagram are female. And the way it, I think, just impacts the mind, both male and female. But where, as far as like observing other people's lives and we only see the good and the message you talk about. Sometimes the negativity or it can suddenly feel like, oh, I didn't know we're so divided. But again, we're just sort of that hit after hit after hit. Any advice or approach as far as for women and social media and how to approach it or understand it or keep it at bay if you need or what comes to mind?

[Tess Frame]

I mean, okay, it is designed on purpose to be very addictive to you. So the reason that you feel like you can't stop checking it is because they want that. They want you to keep opening it and checking it and seeing more. And also, this is something I learned in my post recovery from my bad birth, was that anger is an addiction. And so your brain gets this really satisfying hit every time you see something just. Even if it's just a little bit triggering and you just leave a mean comment or, or you're in an argument with someone and you're so convinced you're right, that just gives you this little tiny pow. Explosion of, of a hit in your brain. And talking about drug houses, it's really. It's really what it's doing, and it's doing that on purpose. And I think if you can recognize that it is trying to trigger that response from you, it makes you a little bit less susceptible to just fall right into that trap. And also realize that it's very easy to get into those because you're behind a screen and you're not face to face with a person. So we've lost that interpersonal communication and that compassion that is really essential for bridging those gaps. You know, people say things to me that I'm like, if I had you over to my house for dinner, would you say that to me in my house? Because when you come on my page, you're in my house. You don't get to say that. You know, so really we just have to remember in all of our interactions that these are real people that we're dealing with. I'm a real person when people talk to me that way. And I can tell right away when someone has lost the ability to see that they are talking to a person and not an account. You know, with road rage, you're not angry at the person, you're angry at the car. I've noticed that about myself. I'm like, oh, this Subaru, it's always the Subarus.

[Host 2]

You know, what's the deal with that Subaru?

[Tess Frame]

Or a Prius? No, now it's the Teslas.

[Host 2]

Oh, well, there you go.

[Tess Frame]

There you go. They're everywhere. It's so funny. No, you get mad at the car because you disconnect. All you're seeing is these big machines around you. You're not seeing the individual people. And so it's a similar phenomenon with social media that you're seeing the account and a response is being triggered on purpose in order to get you to engage and keep you on the app and keep you spending money. And when you realize, oh, I'm totally just a player in their game and you, you can separate the emotion and the responses, those primitive responses in your brain, and realize, I get to actually choose how I react and respond here, they don't get the power over me. I think that that really changes the addictive nature of the app, the negative nature of the app, because you are now not responding the way they want you to respond. And you're keeping that addictive tendency in check, both with the, like, compulsive checking, but also with the, those impulsive, like the angry responses. So my biggest advice for managing social media as a woman, especially as a woman in the Gospel, is we've been advised to be peacemakers. And I think a huge part of that is realizing when we are internally peaceful or not and like, really become self aware in our usage of social media.

[Host 2]

Yeah, there's that, you know, just sort of having that check in of like, like, because I'll find myself sort of like drawn to it. And it's like kind of a overwhelming day. And so you just want, like, just give me another funny meme. I just want to laugh at something, you know, so go back to it. But sometimes like, oh, actually I need to put this down and engage with like, my children or with human connection and real life. And it's amazing how I can almost feel my brain reset, you know, and reconcile or recalibrate.

[Tess Frame]

And I think with all that. And one thing that you had brought up was that, like, this seems to be a primarily female app. There's men all over it, but women tend to be like the most heavy contributors to the app, whether they're consumers or creators. I think a huge part of that is that we are built to be aware of what other people have around us. We're built to compare. Like that is. And that's not a negative trait. That's a primitive trait. It becomes negative when we use that to fuel our dissatisfaction, our constant dissatisfaction. So it's important to notice what your neighbor has because if her family is healthy and they have clean water, and your family is always sick and you don't have clean water. You notice what's different here? She has clean water, and I don't. I need to get clean water. Like that's important.

[Host 2]

Yes, yes.

[Tess Frame]

But when it becomes, her car is nicer than mine, her clothes are nicer than mine, why is her family always smiling and happy and mine's not? It's like, oh, now we gotta realize that that manipulative nature of the app is at work to keep us dissatisfied and spending money, you know, So I think women are especially wired to notice when things are different from our family to another family, you know?

[Host 2]

Yeah. And that's tricky because you can get. Instead of just looking around your neighborhood at, like, three families or five families, suddenly you're looking at a hundred, thousands families.

[Guest or Additional Speaker]

Yes.

[Host 2]

Right. And even a innocent picture of a family standing outside the temple after, you know, their daughter's first baptism, you know, or baptisms for the dead. Like, you know, it's a beautiful family moment, but then we can't help but say, well, why isn't my family like that? You know?

[Tess Frame]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

It's just again and again and again. Right.

[Tess Frame]

And aspirational stuff looks beautiful, and it's so enticing. And it's like, we do want our families to feel peaceful and happy and. And clean and well clothed and well fed. But, yeah, it does well for a reason. It's because most people don't have that and they want it. So you got to be able to draw the line for what's real and what's not always real.

[Host 2]

Yeah. Really helpful discussion. Well, any other. What other point principle concepts have I missed or have we not talked about that you want to make sure we. We cover before we wrap up?

[Tess Frame]

Okay. I do want to talk a little bit more about, like, the Relief Society. We touched on this, the purpose of the Relief Society and women's role in the church. In his original church that he established during his mortal ministry and then also in the Restoration. So women were part of his ministry. He had women patrons financing his ministry. He had women traveling with him. Him. He had students or disciples that were women, and he never, ever condescended to them as if there was a social difference between men and women.

[Host 2]

In fact, wish there was a social difference, but he didn't play long in society.

[Tess Frame]

There was, but for him, in an eternal sense, there is no social difference between men and women. Men are not higher or more worthy to, like, receive spiritual guidance than women. And what I love so much about his Ministry is the first time that he ever declares himself to be the Son of God and the Messiah is to a woman. And so we, we often talk about his second coming, but I like to think of it as his third coming. His first coming was his birth, his second coming was his resurrection, and his third coming will be when he returns again. So the second coming. But both times he's already been to earth, he was received by a woman. So I'm like, that's awesome. What is that? What can we maybe think is going to happen? Yeah, for the third one.

[Host 2]

Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting.

[Tess Frame]

I wonder.

[Host 2]

Never thought about that.

[Tess Frame]

I think, you know, angels come and they prepare women to receive light and goodness and welcome babies and raise babies like God is so. So depending on women to carry the work forward. So that's kind of the view that I have of women in the original church and in God's purpose for women in Scripture. And then when we look now at the modern church and the reestablishment of Christ's Church on Earth and then also the establishment of the Relief Society, it's a really funny and interesting journey that women have gone through. So that social hierarchy of men and women just kind of got wider and wider and wider as time went on. Or maybe it didn't. Maybe it was always that way. But it just seems like, man, the 1800s, like, I just view women as, like, back then as like, wow, I don't know if that was for me. I don't know if that's for me.

[Host 2]

You would have picked that century to live.

[Tess Frame]

I don't think so. Yeah, it's not for me. But the establishment of the Relief Society began as application based. You had to, like, apply to be part of it. And not everyone was approved. And it was a. It was a women's exclusive organization. And the point was that women would come together to help and support each other or receive support. So if somebody was widowed, the women in the group would pool together and make sure that her children were clothed, that they had food, that they could get her a job, like some kind of job selling goods from her home or repairing clothing, tailoring clothing, you know, just. They would work together to make sure that needs were being met in their community of women. And as it expanded, the application system dropped. But I just think, I look back at that and I'm like, that is so funny. And I think that women do this where there is a little bit of a who should we let in? We see this in the church. There are, you know, women do form Factions and cliques, not just women. But when I'm talking about women in the church, this happens. And I think we've got to make sure that. That we look at this as, like, all the women at church are part of this organization, whether they attend or not, whether they contribute or not. Like, this organization is for everyone. So when we are, you know, every ward has doers, every word has, like, heavy contributors, people who are just going to show up. And sometimes there are people who just don't show up a lot. It doesn't matter. They are still part of the kingdom, whether they're contributing or not. Whether they're contributing in your eyes or not, I should say. Anyway, so I just. I've been listening to the book that the church put out about the establishment of the Relief Society called Daughters in My Kingdom, and I'm not even finished reading it through. They published it in 2011, and I remember receiving the book, and they talked and talked and talked about this book, and then I never heard about it again.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Tess Frame]

And, like, never again. No one ever mentioned it again. It's available on the app, so I'm listening to it on the app, and it is a little dry because it is very, like, history heavy. But some parts of it, I'm just like, wow, this is incredible. You really learn about the true purpose of women in God's kingdom from this book, because women really are the helpers. That is so deeply our role. We are meant to be nurturing spirits. You know, Mary and Martha are great examples of this because they each had different skills. One was a listener, one was a learner, and the other was a server. She wanted to clean and cook and wash, and, like, Martha and Mary wanted to sit at his feet and learn. And they both are disciples in their own way. They have these different gifts that make them essential. And so when we look at it that way, it's like everybody has something that they can contribute to the group as a whole. And I don't even want to make it sound like, you know, like a big social program, but, like, that is what makes the world go round, is women noticing things and meeting needs. And I think our maternal instinct plays a big role in that. And when we connect deeply with the purpose of women in God's kingdom and the purpose of the Relief Society, the real purpose of Relief Society, it's harder to forget. It's harder to get lost. It's easier to remember. And like, oh, yeah, you know, when a need is noticed in my local community and I see it and I contribute And I help lift people up and I just ease their burdens. I know also that my community will do that for me. So it creates this element of trust in the organization, which is the law of consecration, which is something we covenant to participate in, you know, so I'm having trouble articulating it, but the purpose is so much bigger and so much greater and more important than I think we sometimes think it is.

[Host 2]

Yeah. Seems like an organization that they would name the Relief Society, right?

[Tess Frame]

Yes, yes.

[Host 2]

Rather than. It's not just like a women's group or it's where the women go on Sunday or whatever. It's really is a society aiming for relief, Right?

[Tess Frame]

Yes. And it's global, too. So, you know, but it's. I think sometimes when we think of it as a global organization, we think, oh, we need to offer global humanitarian aid, which we do. But don't forget that it's local first.

[Host 2]

Yes. Yeah. That's powerful. That really is. Because there's so much we can do, and it is tricky at times. You know, we have such a successful, awesome, institutional church that is doing a lot of humanitarian stuff, and we can, you know, sit in between conference sessions and look at the, you know, the World in Review or whatever they call it, where, oh, look, they. All those trucks pulling up with food. It's some, you know, remote village or whatever. And like, ah, we did that. That's good. But no, no, no. Like, what about your neighbor across the street? Or, you know, like, that's. We have such an important role to play locally in conjunction with this humanitarian effort internationally. Right?

[Tess Frame]

100%.

[Host 2]

That's good. That's awesome. Anything else about, like, Relief Society or that experience that we should consider or.

[Tess Frame]

I think that's it. I just. I have a testimony of the organization. I love it.

[Host 2]

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So before we wrap up, I have one more question, and I don't mean this as a gotcha question, and if there's nothing here, we can edit it out. But I am. I don't mean to catch off guard, but I am curious just because I do so much. So much men's work in our faith tradition and elsewhere. Just from your experience and the content you're creating, obviously, you know, focusing on the. The woman's experience. How can we help men in the church from your perspective?

[Tess Frame]

Oh, my gosh, I'm so glad you asked me that. I got nervous when you were like, I don't mean this as a gotcha. I'm like, what? What is it? I'm so glad you asked. That. So women have Relief Society and primary and young women. And now we also share Sunday school.

[Host 2]

That's right.

[Tess Frame]

Or auxiliaries, which they don't you like

[Host 2]

the bishop break next.

[Tess Frame]

I know, I know. And so, and men have the bishopric, which includes young men. It's not a separate organization anymore, which is so that's one thing. And they have elders quorum. And I think the men are getting the shaft right now. I think women have so much. We really are so action oriented. We are so productive. We notice and we do. And I think the men do that too. But the emotional and connective community needs of the men are overlooked because women have their days free. Like if you're working, if you are a stay home or work at home, mother or woman, you've got time during the day to be able to minister in this traditional way. Men typically work full time jobs. And then they might have like a calling. Like if they're in the young men or in the bishopric, they have a calling once a week that they do. They're taking the kids maybe to sports or they're exhausted at the end of the day. And so there's not a lot of capacity on an individual basis for like more stuff to do. Which might be why they feel like, okay, we'll split the Sunday school presidency, like we're beat. But then I look at it and I'm like, I've never, you know, I've never sat in on an elders quorum lesson. So I don't know, is there a lot of emotional connection happening here? Are their friendships being fostered? Are they caring for each other and making sure, you know, that they aren't lonely or alone? I just, the reason I paused is because I just, it struck me that I already know the statistics for male depression and even suicide rates. And it's upsetting. So obviously there's a gap here. We are not caring for this demographic in the name of like equality, you know, that, that we want to make up for this lost, this, this sense of, sense of inequality that a lot of women feel that they've had over so many years. So it's almost like revenge. Like, well, then we're not caring. We're going to take the position of power and we're not going to take care of you. And I don't think this is a widespread church thing. I just think this is, this can be a social mindset that affects men negatively. But within the church, I do wonder, maybe you can answer that, like, is there that kind of connection for the men?

[Host 2]

Well, I mean, I'm biased because I'm the elders quorum president right now. So I say, like to say, well, in my ward there, you're like, in

[Tess Frame]

my ward, it's great.

[Host 2]

But no, I think generally speaking, yes, that is a huge miss. You know, the. I don't hear very many men gloating about their, their elder scorm experience. Right. And so it is a concern and I think just those more societal dynamics, they. It's easy to go to place like, oh, well, the man in charge, the one with all the authority is a man. So what's the problem? When in reality, just because one man in the ward has the priesthood keys and authority to direct, that word doesn't mean he resonates or represents all the male experiences in the ward. Right. And so oftentimes that's where the mental health can sneak up on men and it can just be a really negative disconnecting experience. Right. So, yeah, and there's probably a episode in me on this, but our church, you know, terms like the patriarchy get thrown around, but I would make the argument that our church is becoming more and more and more and more a feminine type of experience. Right. As far as the diminishment of scouting and outdoors and, and like you mentioned, these organizations, there's less and less opportunities for men to step into a directive role in those things. And even the fact that, you know, the institutional church, there is no organization, there's no advisory council that's primary focus is on the male experience in the church. Right there we got the Relief Society Advisory council, we got the young women's, young men's, and. But there's no like, you know, council. Whether their primary focus is, is the men.

[Tess Frame]

There's not like a general elders quorum.

[Host 2]

There's not. No. So.

[Tess Frame]

Oh my gosh, I don't think I ever put that together.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

I mean, on paper, people say, oh, well, it's the, the quorum of the 12, first presidency, it's like, yeah, but that's their primary focus where.

[Tess Frame]

Right.

[Host 2]

There are, you know, I guess weekly monthly meetings where the recited presidency and general council is getting together and discussing women's needs and issues in the church. There's no counsel for men, so.

[Tess Frame]

Wow. Yeah. I wonder what the solution to that is. I mean, I, as a woman, probably am not going to be the solution. Well, and for this particular problem.

[Host 2]

Right. And going back to the beginning of our conversation, I'm not saying, well, if the church would just do this and this, it's. It's really Just being aware of, like, oh, maybe there. We can't just assume because the bishop's in charge and he's male, that all

[Tess Frame]

the males are taken care of.

[Host 2]

Right? Yeah.

[Guest or Additional Speaker]

Yeah.

[Tess Frame]

Well. And I even think about on a small scale, like, on a local scale, even within the wards, mothers get, like, we really celebrate Mother's Day big. Maybe not all wards do this, but I feel like most American wards really give Mother's Day a big to do. They get a little brunch during second hour. They get the rose or the cupcake or the whatever during right after sacrament. All the talks are geared towards the importance of motherhood. And then also on kind of the flip side of that same coin is there's all this consolation for women who want children but can't have them or have fraught relationships with their mothers. And there's all this kind of apologetic, similar, like, Mother's Day adjacent apologizing. But, like, you don't do any of that for Father's Day. Do they get, like, a brunch in elders quorum?

[Host 2]

Well, in my ward, you know, we're a couple weeks out from el. From Father's Day, and let's just say that there will be meat involved. So at least don't come to my word, everybody, we got a budget. We ought to stand or so.

[Tess Frame]

That is so funny. Yeah.

[Host 2]

There's definitely more to consider there, right?

[Tess Frame]

Yeah. Are we appreciating our men? Because the gospel is not meant to be just men or just women. So I feel like maybe there's been a little bit of a pendulum swing where the primary focus was men for so long, and now is there maybe a little more? Not that it's too much on women, but it's. We've lost some of that attention that should be on men. And, like, we should be boosting both, not just one.

[Host 2]

Yeah, for sure. Well, really good. Any other thoughts, stories, concepts that we didn't hit on or. I think we did pretty well.

[Tess Frame]

I think we did great. For context, my opinions about the men's programs and the young men's programs. I have. I'm a mother of three boys.

[Host 2]

Okay, cool.

[Tess Frame]

And my husband is in the bishopric right now for the third year. So I'm like. He's been in the young men's program for, like, 15 years. Most of our marriage, 15 or 16 years. So as a bishopric member, he's still in the young men's program. So I'm like. He has been definitely, like, Wednesday nights for our whole marriage are reserved. We never have anything planned for Wednesdays, except mutual, you know. So I have a little bit of a vision of like a taste of what's going on at the bishopric level and in the young men's program. But I don't know anything about the elders quorum because he hasn't been in there.

[Host 2]

Interesting. Well, if people do want to follow your content, your come follow me podcast, your online content, where would you send them?

[Tess Frame]

Oh my gosh. So my personal account is Tessia Frame at Tessier Frame, T E S I A H Frame, like a picture frame. And then same website.com and and then our podcast, I have a Come follow me podcast with Becky Squire called Certain Women Podcast and you can find at Certain Women Podcast. And then I also co own a children's faith brand called Happy Sacrament and you can find [e-mail] Very cool.

[Host 2]

Awesome. Well, I really appreciate taking the time to have this discussion and it's so inspiring and many women and of course men check out your content and just be very helpful.

[Tess Frame]

Thank you.

[Host 2]

So last question I have for you, Tess, is as you consider just your journey as, as a leader and obviously in your, you know, in your message, that doesn't necessarily mean a specific calling, but just your journey of stepping forward in the world and leading. How has being a leader helped you become a better follower of Jesus Christ?

[Tess Frame]

I think just trying to emulate Jesus Christ and his capacity for other people. I think all mothers are leaders, you know, I think everybody has it in them to be a leader. And I think my motherhood really woke up something inside me to be able to see other people, to see the child in other people. I feel like I look at like adults and I'm like, I could see what you looked like as a baby. It makes you like that I can see the preciousness that your mother saw, you know. And it's especially helpful when you're dealing with somebody who's maybe kind of difficult to deal with, that you're like, this is just a kid in a grown up body. Like we're all just kids, you know. And I think being able to have that kind of maternal compassion is very Christlike, I think to be able to see other people like they're just kids, you know, and they just need gentleness and kindness. And like my goal with disagreements is can I make them laugh? I don't have to make them agree with me, but can I make them laugh? Because it takes all the heat out of it, you know. So I think just emulating Christ in that way, being able to see them as little children and and love them regardless of position differences and stuff.

[Host 1]

Hey, you made it to the end of the episode. Wasn't that so good?

[Host 2]

You know, I tend to pinch myself

[Host 1]

that this is what I get to do. I get to sit down with some remarkable people across the world, Experts, everyday leaders, PhDs, therapists, whatever it be, and have such an impact, impactful conversation. I hope you'll share it, drop it into text message and email and share it to someone who maybe came to mind during this episode. And if you go to the show notes and scroll to the bottom, there's actually a list of some of our most popular episodes. So don't stop with this episode.

[Host 2]

I mean, you're not done with the dishes or mowing the lawn or working out, so you might as well keep

[Host 1]

it going at the bottom of those show notes and make sure you listen to each one maybe a couple times

[Host 2]

on a few of them.

[Host 1]

And remember, head on over to Zion Lab and ask a question. See what other questions are being [e-mail] Zion.

[Guest or Additional Speaker]

It came as a result of the position of leadership which was imposed upon us by the God of Heaven, who brought forth a restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. And when the declaration was made concerning the only true and living Church upon the face of the earth, we were immediately put in a position of loneliness. A loneliness of leadership from which we cannot shrink nor run away, and to which we must face up with boldness and courage and ability.