← Leading Saints
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- [00:02]
Host 1
All right, here's our goal, folks. Leading Saints is no longer a podcast. Well, obviously we are a podcast. We will continue to podcast, but we're really shifting our focus over to Zion Lab, which is an online community put on and developed by Leading Saints. And this is where we want to go and gather the masses and share ideas about leadership, share ideas about different callings, share ideas about building Zion. And this is the place that we
- [00:27]
Host 2
want to make online, where all things
- [00:29]
Host 1
are discussed, great ideas are shared, and that we can help one another in whatever calling we're in or what calling we're not in. To feel like, you know, I've got purpose here. I can really make a difference in shifting culture in a better way or developing Zion in my own corner of the kingdom. So join us over at zion lab@leadingsaints.org Zion and there you can just jump in. It's free to join and create a profile and jump in and look around and answer some questions, leave a comment, pose a question.
- [00:57]
Host 2
And I think you'll benefit from the things we're doing over at Zion Lab. So join us.
- [01:04]
Host 1
If you wanted further insight into a come follow me lesson, you'd probably search in YouTube or get the We Believe app. Tough church history questions, you'd reach out to the B.H. roberts Foundation. But what if you wanted to learn to be a better leader?
- [01:17]
Host 2
Well, I'm glad you asked.
- [01:18]
Host 1
You'd come to Leading Saints. That's why we exist, to help Latter Day Saints be better prepared to lead by being familiar with others leadership experiences, understand the latest leadership research and finding a community to share ideas. That's why I'm glad you found the Leading Saints podcast. We hope you will dive into the archives and visit leadingsaints.org to find out what are the top most listened to
- [01:41]
Host 2
episodes on the podcast.
- [01:43]
Host 1
Welcome. You're going to love it. All right, this is an episode that I need you to forward on to your bishop's wife. Or maybe you are the bishop's wife and you have found the right place. I interview Jeanette Smith, who's the author of Side by Side, Supporting a Spouse in Church Leadership and a phenomenal resource. It was actually written a couple decades ago, but it's still applicable today as more couples enter in this this adventure of church leadership and how to support one another and how to support the actively serving spouse. Jeanette has actually been a bishop's wife several times. She has been a mission leader and she now is currently the wife of the Stake President. And so she has a lot of personal Experience. She's also a marriage and family therapist, and so has a lot of experience there. Just the perfect person to speak to this concept. And we talk about it all. We talk about the. The strain that sometimes these callings bring on a relationship, on a marriage.
- [02:45]
Host 2
And how do you do that?
- [02:46]
Host 1
How do you turn this from being a tax on a marriage to being an opportunity for the marriage? And what about confidentiality? What's a couple to do when they feel like, I don't know how much we can talk about this? And, you know, they try and set it aside and talk about anything else,
- [03:00]
Host 2
but, you know, the bishop is walking
- [03:02]
Host 1
around the house just with this weight on his shoulders of. Of some of the stress happening in the ward, and he needs that outlet. He needs to process.
- [03:10]
Host 2
And so she talks about a lot
- [03:11]
Host 1
about that confidentiality and how to make that not be a tension on the marriage. But this really can be a time for a couple to grow closer, for their marriage to become stronger, and for the family to be blessed as a whole unit because of these opportunities of service and ones that we appreciate and are also grateful.
- [03:30]
Host 2
They don't last too much longer than
- [03:32]
Host 1
five or nine years or however long it is.
- [03:35]
Host 2
But, you know, it does have to
- [03:36]
Host 1
be a lifetime of service. So you're going to appreciate Janette's experience. She gives a great perspective how to serve side by side in these callings and be a support to the bishop, to the stake President, and to have your marriage flourish. So here's my interview with Jeanette Smith.
- [04:00]
Jeanette Smith
All right.
- [04:00]
Host 2
I am really excited to bring in Jeanette Smith to the Leading Saints podcast. How are you, Jeanette?
- [04:05]
Jeanette Smith
Thank you. I'm doing very well.
- [04:07]
Host 2
Good. And you are the author of Side by Side Supporting a Spouse in Church Service. And this that came to my attention, we've done in Zion Lab, in our online community, we've done several live streams around certain callings, church experiences, topics. And one thing we've done, we've tried to do at least more and more regularly, I should say, is the experience of a bishop's wife or a bishopric wife or a Stake president wife. Whether these are sort of these pseudo callings, these are not official callings, but they sure feel like a calling or responsibility and sometimes a duty, right, to show up in certain ways.
- [04:41]
Jeanette Smith
And.
- [04:41]
Host 2
And in this, you know, I just want to open. Create an open forum for bishops wives to come or somebody in a similar position and say, hey, this is what I'm experiencing. What have others done? What's your experience been like? Or I'm Brand new. Any suggestions? Type of thing. And somebody brought up your book, and I thought, man, how did I miss this book? I know it's been several years since it's been written, and this led me on a path that likely wasn't too hard to track you down. And now to interview you. So tell us about this book, how it came to be.
- [05:08]
Jeanette Smith
Well, interestingly enough, I was just finishing up my master's degree in counseling psychology when my husband was called to be a bishop for the first time. And so I was learning about how to do marriage. I became a marriage and family therapist. That was my emphasis. And I recognized that there were some things that were happening in our marriage when he became a bishop that weren't conducive to a happy marriage. And so I just started pondering it and of course, used some of the things I was learning as a student to figure out, like, how can we. How can we fix this marriage? How can we not just survive the next five years, you know, hold our breath until, wow, we're done with this calling. But how can we use this calling to actually strengthen our marriage and be better as a result of the calling? Because, you know, you're not always just going to serve one time, and that's the end of the story. And in our case, he served as a bishop, he served as a branch president, he served as a bishop again, he served as a mission leader, and now he's a stake president. So it's kind of a good thing that we learned how to do marriage early on in the game.
- [06:11]
Host 2
Yeah, yeah, for sure. And did you have. What stage of life were you at in that first time of serving?
- [06:17]
Jeanette Smith
So we had little kids. Yeah, we had. We had three children. One of them was born while he was serving as bishop. And so it is a different dynamic when you have children, but I think there's a lot of principles that apply across the spectrum from, you know, whether you have babies, whether you're single, whether you have teenagers in your home. As a matter of fact, when my. When I was a young girl, my dad was the bishop, and he tells stories. So I was probably, I don't know, four, he would take me with him to go visit people as a bishop, and he said that I was his secret weapon, like, who can turn away a little girl, blonde? And so it was a way for him to connect with me, and it was a way for him also to do his calling. Gave my mom a break. So that was one of the ways that they handled life when they had little children at Home. You know, we did some. Some things that were similar, Brett and I. Oh, my goodness, we did so much together when he was serving as bishop the first time. One of the things I should probably tell you as we go on into the interview is what makes the marriage strong. When you decide, I'm going to have this calling, strengthen our marriage instead of weaken the marriage. And what we learned is that too often couples have this idea. Bishops have this idea. Males in the church have the idea that because they're in this important ecclesiastical calling, that everything is confidential, that they just can't share, share anything with the spouse. And that is a recipe for drifting apart. Because the priesthood leader or the one with the calling, he's always thinking about his calling, like that's his world. You know, he has a job, but he's thinking about the people that he serves. He's thinking about people. He's concerned about people that he loves, the callings that he has to extend, the marriages that are in trouble, and that's constantly on his mind. And if he feels like he can't share anything that's about his calling with his spouse, then they're living in different worlds. She's raising the kids, maybe she's got her hobbies. He's got his job, and he's got his calling. And it's like, never the twain shall meet. Yeah.
- [08:21]
Host 2
You know, we have such a tradition of endure to the end. Right. So we sometimes take on these callings or these experiences, thinking, okay, it's just five years. You know, we can get through this. And I think in all levels of. Of life, whether it's the relationship or, you know, you hear about bishops being called, as in their medical residency, and it's sort of like, all right, we just got. Just survive. Right. And. And, yeah, there are those moments, the tough weeks, the long hours, and there are maybe some enduring. But I love this framing that you give. It is you really have to make the decision that, no, our relationship can thrive, and there you can't, just. Because I also think that there's this feeling at times where, oh, you were called as a bishop. You'll be blessed in all things. Right. Like your. Your marriage will thrive just because your servant is the bishop, where you really have to make it, that decision and being intentional about it.
- [09:07]
Jeanette Smith
Right. You do have to be intentional. I think we need to think of the calling as a couple's calling. Even though the bishop's the one that's officially set apart. It's going to be a way easier calling if two people Share the burden. If he feels like he has a spouse that he can confide in when he's sad, or he can confide in when he's nervous or when he's frustrated or when he's overwhelmed, these are things that she's there for. He needs to have someone who he can trust to be with him and to care. So she needs to care about the congregation. I call him the sheep. She needs to care about his sheep as much as he does. And how can she care about what he's doing and what he's ministering to if she doesn't know anything about it?
- [09:54]
Host 2
Yeah.
- [09:55]
Jeanette Smith
So we. I think we need to reframe this idea, and this may be radical, that you just can't share anything. If you're. If you're a priest or leader, you need to be careful about what you share and how you share it. And there's some guidelines for sharing it, but you have to share or you're just going to drift apart as a couple.
- [10:11]
Host 2
Yeah.
- [10:12]
Jeanette Smith
At least, you know, not progress as a couple.
- [10:14]
Host 2
Yeah, for sure. And sometimes there's just that weight of the calling at times, and maybe a leader's new to this world and they just. They just want. Making a mistake. They don't want to overshare. They don't want to, you know, share something that they weren't supposed to share. And then. So then they think, well, I'll just not share anything. And it's sort of like, you know, the bishop comes back home from a night of meetings and, you know, that he might have been in the abyss somewhere, you know, because. And doesn't share anything and just kind of expects to carry on with the evening or when he's carrying a lot of. A lot of spiritual weight.
- [10:46]
Jeanette Smith
Right. You know, the first time. Well, I guess it was when Brett was called, one of the times that he was called to serve. But whoever set him apart said, use your wife as a third counselor.
- [10:58]
Host 1
Yeah.
- [10:58]
Host 2
I'm hearing this more and more. This is good.
- [11:00]
Jeanette Smith
And what happens is bishops don't get called generally if their wives are not capable. They're not their equals. You've heard the joke that when a leader is called, they look around and see who the capable wife is. Then they call the spouse.
- [11:14]
Host 2
Yeah.
- [11:14]
Jeanette Smith
Yeah. And I don't think that's far from the truth. I think that a bishop needs to have a capable wife. One, because he's. She needs to manage the home so he's not extra worried about things that are happening at home. But two, because when he is feeling Whatever kind of emotion that's overwhelming him, he needs someone whose shoulder he can cry on. He's not going to cry on his counselor's shoulders. You know, they need to see him as a leader, and he's going to consult with them, and he's going to counsel with them, but he's not going to weep. It's the wife that's going to be the one who says, honey, I know you can do this, and I know it's hard, and I know that your heart is broken because of what's happening. And my heart's broken, too, because it makes me sad to see you sad.
- [11:54]
Host 2
Yeah.
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Jeanette Smith
And she's the one who loves him through all of this. And he doesn't have to tell her. He doesn't have to use names. He doesn't have to tell her who's experiencing what, but he can tell her what he's experiencing. I'm so sad because something's happening, and this is the nature of, you know, this couple that I just admired so much, and they're going to get divorced. You know, you don't need to know who it is. And she doesn't even need to dig and try to figure out who it is. That's not even necessary. She just needs to be there for him in his grief and. Same thing in his. In his joy. You know, there's going to be times when, you know, they. When. What's the other joke they say? When you're a bishop, there are things that, you know that you wish everybody knew, and there are things that, you know that you wish you never had to know.
- [12:39]
Host 2
Yeah.
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Jeanette Smith
And so the things that you wish everybody knew, maybe you can. Or can't tell, but you can celebrate. Man, I was so happy today because I just learned this kid that I've been working with and working with and working with is worthy to go on a mission. And you don't know who it is, but you know how happy he is.
- [12:55]
Host 2
Yeah, I really love that. And as you talk through that, it reminds me of the President Nelson's story. He talks about his first wife when, you know, he came home from the operating room just so disappointed and frustrated. I think, you know, maybe some patients had passed away, you know, while he was working on them, and. And just kind of just wept on the floor. And then after some time, you know, his wife kind of picked him up and said, no, you're gonna get that suit back on tomorrow and get back out there because people need you and your skill. And, you know, obviously the world was blessed because of those encouragements.
- [13:24]
Jeanette Smith
Yeah. And a spouse is in the position to know just what he needs to hear. And he trusts her counsel. You know, she's a counselor, official or not official. He trusts her because he knows how much she. She loves him. And if she really does care about the congregation, if she really does care about the sheep as much as he does, then she's not going to be conflicted when it comes to his needing to minister. I recall a situation we had when Brett was serving the first time, and we had gone to dinner for our weekly date. You know, Friday night date was always a priority. And we were in the middle of this beautiful dinner, finally, by ourselves, had a babysitter for the kids. And he got a call, and it was a frantic mother. And she said, bishop, my son has run away from home, and he's gone to live with his girlfriend. And the mother explained that the girlfriend lived with her dad alone, completely unsupervised. And the mom was super worried that he was going to break the law of chastity. So he says. Explains to me the problem. He says, this mom's super worried about her kid. And I said, we need to go rescue that kid. So we left the meal, and we went to the house, the girlfriend's house, and this young man opened the door, and he was not appropriately addressed. I mean, it was pretty. It was a bit embarrassing for both of us. But we went in, and Bishop sat down with him and said, you know, maybe we could give this time to settle, you know, so you're not so mad at your mom. Maybe you can think really hard about your decision here to run away from home. And he didn't want to go home. So I said, well, why don't we let him come stay at our house for a couple nights, just till he cools down. I would have never done that if I didn't care about the sheep the way my husband cared about the sheep. So we brought him home, stayed at our house for a couple days. I took him to work, and finally he had calmed down enough that they could talk, and he went back, stayed home, reconciled with his mom, turned out to be a great kid. He served himself as a bishop later in life.
- [15:13]
Host 2
Oh, cool.
- [15:14]
Jeanette Smith
Yeah. So I just think that, you know, I don't know if. If Brett would have said, we need to leave this meal. We're finally having a date, and you need to have this kid coming to our home. If we hadn't been on the same team, you know, if we hadn't been always communicating about the Needs of, of the members of the ward?
- [15:32]
Host 2
Yeah. Is there anything specific you did? Like, is it important to have that sort of that intentional conversation of being like, okay, how are we going to do this in the beginning or, or what tips would you give to, you know, in the beginning as the calling as the bishop has just been set apart or whatever it is.
- [15:48]
Jeanette Smith
I'll tell you one of the most valuable things that we did not learn until we became mission leaders. And this, I really recommend it for every couple, whether it's a whatever calling that you're in. It can be a super difficult calling. It can be a less difficult calling. But we did companionship study every morning like you're supposed to when you're missionary companions. And we were missionary companions. We talked about the missionaries because they were our sheep and we both cared about them and we both received inspiration as to what the missionaries needed. We studied our scriptures together with the missionaries needs in mind. We studied. And with the idea of what are we going to talk about at zone conference? What are we going to talk about when we go to interviews this week? And so that couple's time in the morning really put us in a position where we could receive revelation for the calling. And since we've been home, we've kept it up. We've been home for six years from the mission and we still do companionship study in the morning. Now Brett's stake president and we still discuss, you know, let's. Different callings that he needs to extend. I know the people in the stake, I know the sisters in the stake better than he does. So he trusts a lot of the recommendations that I give him. So one of the cautions about that is when we do make recommendations as a spouse, we have to remember that there are recommendations and the person with the mantle makes the decision. And a spouse is never in a position to criticize or second guess or say, I told you so about a decision that the priest or leader makes. She gives the input, but he makes the final decision.
- [17:21]
Host 2
Yeah, that's really, really helpful. And even in, like, I'm glad you bring up sort of even the calling thing or I remember coming home from, you know, meetings and saying like, okay, we're thinking about doing this for fifth Sunday. Right? Like, let me kind of break it down for you. What feedback do you have? Right. And there's just a different life experience that even my counselors wouldn't have that, you know, my wife could bring to the table and, and you know, as my counselors are having a similar conversation with their Wives. And. And it really was that team effort. And, you know, and that. That really changes the. The nature of. Of that experience when it feels like we're all in this together.
- [17:52]
Jeanette Smith
Right, right. Well, one of the lucky things, when I served with Brett the first time when he was the bishop, he called me to be the seminary teacher. And so I got to know the youth in the ward really well because I was with them every morning. And that became a resource for him because the bishop's in charge of the youth. You know, that's his primary calling, is the president of rock priesthood. And so he knew who needed what a lot of times, based on what they had said or the conversations that we'd had in seminary. And then another time, I was young women's president when he was in the stake. And so we were able to kind of get the same kind of a dynamic going there where I could see things that he wouldn't have seen had it not been for the calling that I had.
- [18:33]
Host 2
Yeah, that's great. Any other advice for those newly called families in these roles?
- [18:39]
Jeanette Smith
Well, I think a wife has to be really careful when she's seen as a bishop's wife. People know she knows stuff. Whether or not they realize the bishop's sharing. She is going to be privy to conversations just because she'll be in the car when he's on the phone, or she'll see who comes to the door for an interview. You know, she's going to know stuff, and she needs to be super trustworthy. Like I always say that the wife is not an atm. The wife is a safe deposit box. So, you know, the bishop can share things, but she does not share with. I really recommend anything about the ward. If people want to talk about the ward, she can change the subject, because if she shares one small thing, they might think that she knows other things that she shouldn't be sharing. So I recommend that she just talks about, you know, things that sports or books or the scriptures. There's plenty of things without talking about people in the ward. I kind of learned this because I was a therapist at the same time that. That Brett was serving. And so I had to keep confidences.
- [19:42]
Host 2
Yeah, that.
- [19:43]
Jeanette Smith
So I learned, you know, firsthand the importance of keeping confidences because I could lose my license.
- [19:49]
Host 2
Yeah. Yeah. It's a big deal.
- [19:51]
Jeanette Smith
So I remember one time we were having dinner with some friends. We'd gone out as couples, and they started talking about a couple in the ward that were having trouble in their marriage. And this couple, I was seeing them as their Therapist. And so I'm sitting here at dinner hearing this conversation and knowing that they're completely off base and they're kind of judging and they shouldn't be judging. And I can't say anything. You know, I just am putting food in my mouth as fast as I can so that they don't wonder why I'm not participating in this conversation. But I think it's a safety thing. I think the members of the ward see you as a trustworthy spouse when you just don't pass on information.
- [20:28]
Host 2
Yeah, that's really good. I often hear about this community shift that sometimes the bishop's wife feels of man.
- [20:35]
Host 1
We were.
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Host 2
I was so close with so many in the ward, and I was just sort of one of the ladies. And then my wife or my husband got called as bishop, and now I'm the quote, unquote, bishop's wife. And I feel a shift. I feel a distancing. I feel like people don't want to engage with me. Is. Is that common? Have you heard that before?
- [20:52]
Jeanette Smith
I think there is a shift, like you say, because they might not want things to get back to the bishop that, you know, that you might find out when you're lunching with the ladies. Yeah. And they don't want that to get back to the bishop. I think there is a shift, but I think the reassurance is, you know, your primary relationship is. Is that of your spouse. Your spouse is your best friend. And if the other relationships take a back seat, it's not like you don't have a best friend anymore. You know, you can still be friends with them, but in a different way, a different shift. I mean, my goodness, we've been doing this service 44 years now. And as a stake president, there are probably things. I'm a stake president's wife now. I don't think there's things that people tell me because. Because it's not my business to tell them to the stake president. When they're ready for him to know, they'll tell them himself.
- [21:35]
Host 2
Yeah.
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Jeanette Smith
It's also not a bad idea to have friends outside the church.
- [21:40]
Host 2
Yeah.
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Jeanette Smith
One of the things that has been really rewarding for me is, is to have friends that didn't know I was the bishop's wife or didn't understand what that entailed. And I could develop really close relationships with those non members. And of course, I live in Florida, so the opportunity to develop relationships with non members is really. Yeah, it's pretty easy. Yeah.
- [21:58]
Host 2
That was sort of my next question of if that. If the bishop's wife does feel that loneliness. You know, what are some things to do? And I'd say, you know, outside of Utah, maybe you can look outside the church for friendships. Inside of Utah, you can look outside the stake for friendships, because it's really not that far, you know. You know, even, you know, parents of your kids or whatever that they probably don't. Or several stakes away or whatever. And.
- [22:20]
Jeanette Smith
Yeah, they play sports or people that you play sports with. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [22:25]
Host 2
But I think it's. I mean, I think that's just a really important. Because if you're not intentional about friendships or about going to lunch with the ladies or it often can, you know, just creates a vacuum that gets filled with other stuff. But because you will feel moments of loneliness. My. I go back to the. My mom has these old, you know, crocheted afghans that she crocheted back when my father was first bishop. This was before I was. I was born. And. And she just. These. These afghans represent kind of that loneliness because she's like, I felt I was just home alone with these young kids, and I would just crochet, crochet, crochet, you know, and suddenly I have this afghan and. But she remembers at a time of loneliness.
- [23:06]
Jeanette Smith
Well, I do think that there has been a shift. I think that, you know, when my father served, you know, as a bishop, I think that there was more of this idea that you can't share anything with your spouse. Yeah, I think that was a dangerous place. I think that sometimes that's one of the things that I think causes women to think that they want the priesthood, which I don't think that women should have the priesthood, but I think that women who see men as hoarding power or men who see themselves as powerful because they know things that no one else knows, I think that's the type of thing that a woman resents. You know, if you really. You've been a. Recently, you've been a bishop, you know, it's really all about hard work. It's really all about service. And so if you're coveting the job of a priesthood leader, you're coveting a hard job that takes a lot of time and a lot of effort, a lot of heartbreak. But I don't think that's what women want when they resent the fact that they don't have the priesthood. I think they're looking at men who wield power, and one of the ways that they wield power is by keeping all these secrets to themselves, because, you know, knowledge is Power. And if they lord around this fact that I've got all this knowledge that you don't have, it makes the wife feel diminished. So that's another risk of just not sharing the things that you can share. I think a priestly leader wants to see his spouse as his equal, and anytime he starts to see himself as her as his superior, it's going to affect the marriage, and it's going to affect the marriage in a detrimental way.
- [24:38]
Host 2
Yeah, you mentioned, you know, that the church calling should not be a tax on a marriage. It should be an opportunity for a couple to draw closer. Any, any other concept there that you haven't mentioned?
- [24:49]
Jeanette Smith
Well, you think about what draws you closer anyway, whether you're in a calling or not. And it's having similar goals, it's having their similar priorities, it's caring for what one another cares about, it's helping one another in whatever it is you're working on. You know what I. When I was serving, working as a therapist, I noticed I had couples that would come in and a lot of them would run a business together. I had a couple that came in and they were. They ran a business, a skydiving business, and he was the pilot, and she was the one who would jump out of the plane with the people, the customers. And they came in not because of their marriage, because they had a really good marriage. I mean, they were. They were a team. They worked together to. For this similar goal. They shared all the time, you know, what can we do to promote our business? And so I think if we look at maybe a calling in the church in a similar way, like we're a team and what can we do to further the goals of this team? And the team is, of course, our ward or our stake or the family. And how can I help you? And how can you help me? And then that's what helps anybody grow together.
- [25:56]
Host 2
Yeah. And then I feel like, you know, going back to that experience you shared about the youth and, you know, moving in with his girlfriend, where you felt part of the team, you felt empowered to, you know, say something or, or encourage it one direction or the other, because it was part of that. And it seems like. And maybe you can correct me if I'm wrong, but, you know, being called as mission leaders, obviously you're both, you know, called and set apart, and you're both in the experience. It's obvious. Right. And to me, we, we maybe don't create that culture as well as it should be around being called as a bishop or, you know, in, in this or a stake president, where it's like, no, this is a. An experience that our family's being called to, even though dad's the only one being set apart. Right. As in this role.
- [26:39]
Jeanette Smith
Yeah. I just think it's a paradigm shift. And I think for the longest time, we've seen Collins as being a separate. Separate. A wife's calling, a husband's calling. But one of the things I have loved, as I've observed the Brethren, is the way that they've involved their wives and their callings. I particularly love the Renlunds. You know, they came to our mission while we were serving, and they served together. You know, she. The Kierans came, they served together. She had a message that was as powerful as the one that he shared. And I think it's really awesome that we see so much of them, these face to face conversations that the Brethren are doing. They serve with their wives, and that didn't happen when I was young. So I think there's. There's just a paradigm shift where people see husbands as being effective because they have wives that are good counselors to them. We did have another member of the quorum of the 12 come to our mission. I won't tell you who it is, but it was a really private meeting with just the mission leaders. There was. We had us and the mission leader from an adjacent mission and then the mission leaders from the MTC. There was an MTC there, and this member of the Quorum of the 12 was sharing a scripture with us, and he was, like, at the pulpit, and his wife was sitting right behind him, and she says, honey, that's not where it is. That's a different place. And she corrected him in front of all of us and told us where the scripture was. And he was so gracious. Oh, like, you're right. Thank you for sharing that. And it was such a great model for us to see how they worked together and how he respected her opinion, and she had no qualms in sharing her opinion. So I think Brethren are doing a really good job of helping the members of the church see that you can serve more effectively when you're both on the same page. When, you know, the wife cares about the husband's calling, the husband cares about the wife's calling, and you and you use one another as a resource.
- [28:29]
Host 2
Yeah, that's powerful. One thing in your notes, in your outline, you put that really hit me is the problem is not that the church servant, wife, or husband is physically less available to the spouse. The problem is that he or she is emotionally less available. Unpack that for us.
- [28:44]
Jeanette Smith
Yeah, well, so example, for example, you were able to, you didn't have children, you know, when you first served as a bishop. And so being gone wasn't as big of a crisis because the thing when a husband leaves and there's a bunch of kids at home, the wife's going to be a lot more cranky than if she's just got some time to herself to sit down and read a book, you know, and so the being gone is one thing, but, you know, like I said with my dad, he could take, he took the children with him and when we went, now that we serve, you know, as retired people, I can go with him. But I think the, the bigger issue is the fact that you, not just his time is taken from you, but his attention is taken from you, his thoughts are taken from you, the things he cares about are taken from you. I mean, you're going to drift apart if you don't share the things that are important to one another.
- [29:37]
Host 2
Yeah.
- [29:38]
Jeanette Smith
It could happen even outside the church if you didn't share what was. What was important.
- [29:42]
Host 2
Yeah.
- [29:43]
Jeanette Smith
Because that's what really, what really cements a marriage is being of one heart, being of one mind, not necessarily even being in the same place. I mean, you could be close to someone who travels. If you're talking every day and you're sharing what's on your mind and you're receiving the kind of support that you need so that you need to focus on.
- [30:01]
Host 2
Yeah, that's really good. I remember instances where, you know, I met a church meeting and for what, whatever the topic or whatever we're focusing on, it's almost, I mean, I had some deeply spiritual experiences, as if almost the heavens opened up and, you know, it was just such a bonding spiritual experience for the bishopric or the Stake Presidency or whatever was the context. And then, you know, I'd come home just sort of floating into the room, just wow, you know, and, and she's watched, you know, whatever kids movie for the nth teent time and you know, it's like, wow, you know, you can be. You then come back together on such different places because we were doing such different things. And sometimes that gap is hard to mend or ease into.
- [30:40]
Jeanette Smith
Right. And you want to share. When you've had a floating on the cloud experience like that, the first thing you want to do is share it with someone you love. And if she doesn't care or she's preoccupied or, you know, the things that matter to her more than the Things that matter to you that deprives you of that opportunity to share what's important to you and that opportunity to bond. And a good listener is going to be just as excited as you are about whatever it was that delighted you so much. A really good listener is going to just tell me more about that, you know. Oh, I'm so excited for you. I really am happy that you had that experience. And she is going to be happy you had an experience. So that makes you feel more loving towards her because she's been so delighted for what you went through.
- [31:20]
Host 2
Yeah.
- [31:21]
Jeanette Smith
And then she's more loving because you shared. Because you wanted to share with her.
- [31:26]
Host 2
Yeah. What about, you know, just being wrapped up in our own personal concerns. And this happens even outside of these callings. Right. Where, you know, whether it's going with my marriage, like, I'm sort of wrapped up in my day to day, my career, my, you know, things I'm. Projects I'm working on and, you know, she's doing her focuses at home or with the kids. And then those worlds unite at the end of the, you know, the beginning of the evening. And sometimes there's. And this may be a male female dynamic where I don't necessarily want to rehash all that stuff or all the heaviness or all those things. And she wants to talk about it. You know, she hasn't had adult conversation all day and finally she wants to chat about it. Any thoughts around that dynamic of when we get kind of too wrapped up in our own concerns?
- [32:08]
Jeanette Smith
Well, I think sometimes you make the sacrifice because you're in a marriage and the marriage is more important than anything else. Even how tired you are. You may put your head on the pillow and you want to just crash, but your wife needs to share and you make that a priority and whatever it takes so that you can nurture the marriage. And it's more important than whatever putting your feet up and watching the television. That can't be the priority. The priority has to be her needs or his needs.
- [32:34]
Host 2
Yeah, really good.
- [32:35]
Jeanette Smith
You asked me a little bit, you mentioned a little bit ago about his world and her world. And it reminded me of another situation we had that was super tricky. When Brett served the first time as a bishop because I was a therapist, A little girl in our ward, her mom had brought her in to see me because she had been molested by a young man. Turns out the young man goes to visit the bishop, who is my husband. And so we had quite a difficult dynamic there for a while because I'm Trying to help the little girl heal, and he's trying to help the young man heal, and we have to make our marriage the priority. I couldn't make. Make my work my priority, the little girl my priority. He couldn't make even his calling the priority. Our marriage had to be the priority, and we had to decide that, you know, I'm not going to tell you how to do your job, and you're not going to tell me how to do my job, because we need to be unified and I'm going to trust you to do your job. He's going to trust me to do my job, but it's not going to affect how we regard one another.
- [33:38]
Host 2
Yeah. Yeah, that's great. Obviously, you know, the. It's still sage advice as far as, you know, regular date night and, you know, having those personal connections away from careers or callings or, you know, the household or children and anything else to consider around date night when it comes to these. These types of callings, obviously we encourage it, but anything else?
- [33:58]
Jeanette Smith
Well, you know, I think the purpose of date night is connecting. I mean, you don't. You don't have to even leave the home to connect a lot of times. So my son is a bishop as well right now, and he and his wife just like to go to the beach and sit on the lifeguard stand and watch the waves. And while they're sitting there, they just talk about the things that they're going through. And so whether you call it a date night or whether you call it companionship, study in the morning, or whether you call it talking on the phone when he's driving out of town, whatever it is, just that opportunity to connect. You don't have to be having, you know, a celebration. You have to be having a fancy dinner, but you do have to have some time alone without interruptions. And, you know, one of the things that I was. That I was thinking is you have to be pretty, pretty careful when you are in this type of a relationship that you both have pure motives. You know, we talk about the wife needing or wanting to know what's going on in. In the ward, and she can't do that just because she's curious. She can't do it just because she's nosy. You know, her motive for wanting to know what's going on has to be because she wants to lift his burden. She wants to comfort him if he needs comfort. She wants to be able to share if she gets a good idea. She's not. She wants to strengthen the relationship. She's not trying to seek power. She just really has pure motives because she wants him to succeed in his job. And whatever she can do to make him succeed in his job is going to drive how she interacts. And if you don't have that pure motive, then you don't have any business really knowing what's going on. You just got to do it for the right reason. And then the leader, the priesthood leader, needs to have his motive as well. He needs to recognize that I am listening to her. Not just to placate her, not just to make her feel better, not just to pat on the back and say, oh, yes, you're important, but I'm listening to her because I really value her wisdom. I think that she's really got good things to say and I want to know him. And he needs to acknowledge that sometimes the Lord will send revelation to the wife. I think we've heard stories at general conference where the husband was just so busy doing what he does that he didn't ponder. And so finally the Lord reached out to the wife and she got the revelation. She shared it. Lord will find a way to get his work done. And he needs to be open to the fact that that could happen and see her as someone that he could really listen to and learn from. And he needs to see her as an equal, not as a superior by any means or not as inferior, but really as someone with whom he's equally oaked. And I think that helps the communication. There's a purpose to the communication when, when they both have pure motives for. When you see another lifeguard standing there and they're talking about the people they both love, they're doing it for the right reason.
- [36:52]
Host 2
Yeah. And that's just a good moment to kind of check yourself, you know, with everybody involved of, you know, what are my motives here? Why do I feel maybe resentful of this experience or this calling or. And you know, maybe there's moments of revelation that can help us correct course there as we turn to turn to God. Right.
- [37:11]
Jeanette Smith
So, you know, you talk about resentful and I think that resentment can occur not just, but because a priestly leader is always gone and you have a heavier burden. But resentment can occur when you're not taking good care of yourself as a spouse. You know, we tend as Latter Day Saint women to think that we're super moms and, and that we can survive on four hours of sleep and that we only need to eat, you know, one meal a day or whatever. You know, we think that we should be able to Handle the stress that's put on our shoulders. There's extra stress. You know, when you have a demanding calling, your spouse has a demanding calling. And moms need to make sure that they take good care of themselves so that they're in a position to be a resource to their spouse. And that's actually. I have a whole section in the book on taking good care of yourself so that you can be a better resource to both the members of your congregation and to your spouse. It's actually called increasing your capacity to serve. And you increase your capacity to serve by sharpening the saw, basically sitting back and taking good care of yourself.
- [38:14]
Host 2
Yeah, that self care is always the, you know, it's like the obvious thing to focus on, but it's so easily missed at times where it's like, oh, yeah, I've gotta actually shower in the mornings.
- [38:23]
Jeanette Smith
And you know how hard that sometimes is.
- [38:27]
Host 2
Yeah, yeah, for sure. Really good. Any thoughts? Like, I don't know. Obviously we're both big fans of therapy, and I'm just thinking of those bishop relationships or stake presidency relationships or, you know, these. When these heavy callings are involved where, man, the marriage is not going well and, you know, we put on the face for church and show up and try and be that happy family. But this could be the end of it, right? This could lead to divorce and speak to that group that maybe somebody's experiencing that.
- [38:58]
Jeanette Smith
You know, I've seen that happen too many times. And I think that may have been one of the things that motivated me to become a marriage therapist in the first place, is because I was so astounded that people that I looked up to that were, you know, had served as bishops and they had struggled in their marriage, and then their marriage ended. And so that's tragedy when it happens. I think it takes a lot of humility when you're in a leadership position to recognize that you're vulnerable and that you're not. You don't have to be on a pedestal. You know, like a lot of leaders sometimes think that they have to be on a pedestal and so that they can't admit that they may be having some of the same challenges that someone in the congregation is having. And so it takes a lot of humility to recognize I am human too, and I need to. To get the help that I need if my marriage is struggling. You mentioned that. You know, sometimes we think that because we've agreed to serve that the Lord's going to automatically bless us. But I think what happens is, is he gives us the opportunity to learn and to grow in these leadership callings. But we got to take the opportunity. You know, he doesn't. He stands at the door and knocks, but you got to open the door, you know, You've heard that.
- [40:05]
Host 2
Yeah.
- [40:06]
Jeanette Smith
We really have to recognize, oh, wow, I'm learning something from this calling. I'm facing a situation I wouldn't have faced otherwise, and so I need to get some help for whatever situation that I'm facing. It's like, I don't even know who you would go to, who you would trust to go to, as, you know, for counseling. If you were a bishop, maybe to your stake president, maybe he could recommend someone, like out in Utah, where there's a bunch of members and a bunch of therapists, maybe somebody out of the stake. One of the things that's an incredible blessing nowadays is they're doing a lot of teletherapy, and you can get help online. And, you know, if you're a private person and you don't want anybody to know, that's kind of a good way to keep your. Your need to get therapy private. But I would encourage leaders to be honest about their humanity and maybe not say, oh, my wife and I are having trouble. But just say, you know, I'm human too, and I understand what you're going through, because we also have some struggles, you know, without going into detail, I think it's really a good thing for leaders to be humble. I think it's good for them. I think it's good for the congregation, because then they don't expect the leader to never need time for himself or have all the answers. You know, if. If you put yourself on a pedestal, what is a. Folks on a pedestal have to watch their step. Right. And so if you put yourself on a pedestal, people are going to be disappointed if you. If you fail them. So it's probably in your best interest not to put yourself on a pedestal. Just to let you know, hey, I didn't get trained for this calling. You know, I didn't have a background in leadership. I didn't have a background in therapy. I. I am winging it. So be with me, you know, help me succeed, but don't expect me to know exactly what I'm doing. Yeah.
- [41:47]
Host 2
Wow. Such important conversations and dynamics that often just leave people feeling like they're on an island. And so hopefully somebody somewhere is hearing this and realizing there is help, there's resources, and they're even available to the bishop's family, you know.
- [42:03]
Jeanette Smith
Yeah. So, yeah.
- [42:05]
Host 2
Any other point, principle, concept that we should consider about this, you know, marriage dynamic.
- [42:10]
Jeanette Smith
Well, I think another thing that the wife needs to be careful about is that when she gets information, she needs to be really careful. Not just to keep it confidential, but she needs to be careful that she doesn't form judgments. Because we as humans are always off. If we form a judgment, we are going to just always be off. Even as a therapist, you know, I got to know people inside and out. You know, like, they really shared their deepest selves with me. But I still, especially as a therapist, felt like I was in no position to judge them. Which is one of the things that I just love about the atonement and about having a savior is he is in a perfect position to judge because he knows both sides of the coin. You know, like, he knows everything about the person who is maybe sinning. He knows everything about the person who has sinned against, who's been sinned against. He knows the struggles that we encountered as children. He knows the biological makeup that we have. He knows any limitations that we have. He is the perfect judge. And for us to think that we could even come close to making a judgment is just audacious. And so I think that it's really important if we do hear information as a supportive spouse that we recognize. I don't know enough. I just don't know enough to come to any conclusions about this.
- [43:35]
Host 2
Yeah. So anything. Is there any unique dynamic? I'm just thinking, you know, there. It just feels so heavy with the, you know, the bishop or the stake presidency role. But what about when the tables are turned? Is anything go to mind with the. If the spouse of a Relief Society president or. I mean, just.
- [43:53]
Jeanette Smith
Yeah, I think it's absolutely the same thing. It's probably even more difficult because women have a really easy time confiding in other women, and men don't do that quite so much. So if a man is struggling, he. He might just, you know, kind of hold his cards to his chest, but a woman's going to be more vocal. So I think it's equally important that a husband recognize the importance of sharing, you know, what his wife's going through. Um, so we served the second time, my husband was the bishop. Actually, it was after he was a branch president, then he. The third time he was bishop. We served in a Spanish speaking branch, and we had a couple in the branch. She was member, but he was not. He was Catholic or something like that, but he came to everything with her. She was really good at throwing parties, and he was the one that would carry the Cooler of ice. And he was the one that would stand behind the grill and he would, you know, flip the hamburgers. And they did everything together, even though he wasn't a member. But he supported her in her calling like none other. And they, they had so much fun together. I think that's one of the really key things, is you can have fun together when, when you're serving my husband, we've got girls camp coming up here in a few weeks, and my husband has to go or has been invited to go and, and chaperone. And I've been invited to go and present a workshop. So we're both going to be at girls camp together and that's going to be a fun opportunity. You know, maybe have a water balloon fight with those girls. You know, maybe just jump off the diving board into the pool with them. You know, you can do a lot of fun things when you're serving together. It doesn't have to always be just a big old burden on your shoulders, because there's a lot of fun things that you can do as a bishop, especially as the leader of the youth. Even if you, if the wife was available, she could even go to the. The weeknight activities because he should be there every week anyway because he's the leader of the young men. And if she could go with him, I mean, they can be playing volleyball together with the youth. And that's just fun. That's not work.
- [45:50]
Host 2
Yeah, that's awesome. Anything related to. What about the. Considering the relationship with the children, whether they're young, older teenagers, maybe out of the house, Anything there?
- [46:00]
Jeanette Smith
Well, once again, taking them with you when you can, going to as many events as you can, it's kind of a benefit if you're a bishop and you have teenagers and because teenagers have so many activities and you're required to be there anyway. And so I think, you know, that's a great time to be a bishop if you have adolescents in your home and just join in the activities. You know, one thing again, a lot of times we think that it's. It's such a privilege to be called as a leader, and it is a privilege to be called as a leader, but it's also a huge responsibility and it also requires a lot of time and a lot of work. And I've noticed, you know, my husband invites me to go with him to many, many different meetings now that he's the stake president. And one of the meetings, one of the things that he does is he invites me to come with him when he sets a Missionary apart, to go on a mission. And we do that a lot. Like we probably do that, you know, every other week, which is just really fun. He invites me because, you know, I've. I served a mission with him and he'll ask me to share a little bit of advice with whoever's, whoever's going to be serving. But that's fun for us to go together and to celebrate this really neat, not neat time where this couple or this young person's going to be going on a mission. And the other thing we do is we have mission leadership training or not mission, mission correlation.
- [47:11]
Host 2
Oh, yeah.
- [47:12]
Jeanette Smith
And he invites me to come to that. And we talk about how we can improve the missionary work in our stake. And I teach stake mission prep. And so he comes to my class and we do role plays together because the missionaries, the people that are going to be missionaries, they need to see how to do missionary work. So we role play for them. And that is fun. I mean, they laugh when they see us role play, and they laugh even harder when it's their turn to do a role play. But it's work. Like I could be. I could be sitting home, you know, reading my favorite book because I love to read. But I make that sacrifice to go with him to all these different places he has to be anyway, because I want to nurture our relationship. I want to support him, and I want us to grow together as a couple. So every opportunity that we have, there's so many things that a wife can go to if she wants to. You know, he gets invited to go speak, I get invited to go speak. He can come with me when I go and I can come with him when he goes. We did seminary graduation last week, and I don't have any kids in seminary, but of course I went with him because, you know, he was on the program. So it's a sacrifice to go and be involved in all these things that happen in the ward or in the stake. But it's worth it because it really does strengthen your marriage when you do all these things together.
- [48:27]
Host 2
Yeah, that's awesome. That's really good. As far as the book, side by side, is there, like, any advice on how the book works? Should the, the wife read it separately? Is it a couple's book? Is it what make your, you know, choose your own adventure?
- [48:40]
Host 1
I mean, how.
- [48:41]
Host 2
Anything more you could tell us? Just about how the book's structured, how to use it as a tool.
- [48:45]
Jeanette Smith
Yeah, so it's structured basically for wives. It's, you know, how to support a spouse in Church service. And we talk about how to meet the needs of the congregation. We talk about how to meet your own personal needs as. As a spouse. And we talk about how to meet the needs of the servant, of the church member. So there's. There's different sections in the book. It is written to wives. And so. And you know, the husband, if he's the one who's got the calling, he's probably too busy to read anyway. So I do recommend that wives read the book. And this is the thing that they can talk about when they're sitting on the lifeguard stand and looking out at the waves, you know, when they're having their. When their time together, or they can have, you know, their personal study in the morning, their scripture studies, what they do together. She shares, you know, what she's learning from the book, and he's probably going to be pretty delighted that she's learning, you know, how to be a resource, and she's learning how to lighten his load, and she's learning how to celebrate what he celebrates. That's what the book was help with.
- [49:38]
Host 2
That's awesome. Really cool. Any other principle you want to make sure that we include before we wrap up or how do we do?
- [49:44]
Jeanette Smith
No, I think we did a really good job. I just don't want people to run away and think that, oh, you know, we've changed the rules of the church by saying, oh, that the bishop doesn't have confidential. I'm not trying to change any rules of the church. I really am hoping that the wife will see, she'll have pure motives. She'll see herself as a resource. She'll. She'll see herself as lightening the husband's load, and she'll see that this is the way to strengthen their marriage. So I think when you keep your motives pure and you recognize this is why we're serving together, we're serving as a couple is because it's good for the ward, for the stake or the mission, or whomever it is you're serving. It's good for them to see a couple that's united. And the leader is going to be a lot stronger because he has that support of a spouse. He doesn't have anybody at home that's like dragging him down because she wishes he wouldn't, you know, be out serving. He's got someone that's right there, right there by his side cheering him on and glad that he's serving. Grateful that he has this calling.
- [50:40]
Host 2
Yeah. And if people do want to check out your book, I know I got the Kindle version. Any other place they can find it?
- [50:46]
Jeanette Smith
Well, I understand that it can be found on lots of. Lots of places online, like Amazon has different people that sell it thrift books. It's been out for a while, and so it's, you know, I think I published it in 2002. So it's been out for a while. But there are still places where you can get a hard copy or you can go to Deseret Book, because Deseret Book published it. And so they have it on their website as a Kindle or ebook.
- [51:08]
Host 2
Either way.
- [51:09]
Jeanette Smith
Yeah.
- [51:10]
Host 2
Well, Jeanette, this has been really helpful and encouraging. And, you know, I just. My heart breaks when I hear some of these relationships sort of behind the scenes that are crumbling and they're suffering from the. The calling is becoming more of an endurance battle than a blessing. And it really shouldn't be that way. There are those seasons. So what final encouragement would you give to bishops, wives out there who are listening in?
- [51:34]
Jeanette Smith
Well, I became a marriage therapist because I believe in strengthening marriage. And when the marriage is strong, the family's strong. And so I really feel like if the wife can remember that my marriage is a priority, the husband can remember my marriage is a priority. Whatever the calling is, you're going to be a couple forever. You're going to be a couple after this life. And part of what we're doing here is we're learning how to serve together as couples because we're going to serve together after this life. So I think if we remember, if both husbands and wives remember, that the marriage deserves the attention and the marriage is the priority, and then it actually makes the calling easier. And the calling probably gets more attention because you've got two people that are on the same page but are trying to bless the ward.
- [52:20]
Host 1
That concludes this episode of the Leading Saints podcast. Hey, listen, would you do me a favor? You know, everybody's got that friend who listens to a ton of podcasts, and maybe they aren't aware of Leading Saints. So would you mind taking the link of this episode or another episode of Leading Saints and just texting it to that friend? You know who I'm talking about, the friend who always listens to podcasts and is always telling you about different podcasts. Well, it's your turn to tell that friend about Leading Saints, so share it. We'd also love to hear from you. If you have any perspective or thought on this episode, you can go to leadingsaints.org and actually leave a comment on the episode page or reach out to us@LeadingSaints.org contact.
- [53:09]
Church Leader (Quote)
It came as a result of the position of leadership which was imposed upon us by the God of heaven, who brought forth a restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. When the declaration was made concerning the only true and living church upon the face of the earth, we were immediately put in a position of loneliness, the loneliness of leadership from which we cannot shrink nor run away, and to which we must face up with boldness and courage and ability.