← Leading Saints
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- [00:02]
A
All right, here's our goal, folks. Leading Saints is no longer a podcast. Well, obviously we are a podcast. We will continue to podcast, but we're really shifting our focus over to Zion Lab, which is an online community put on and developed by Leading Saints. And this is where we want to go and gather the masses and share ideas about leadership, share ideas about different callings, share ideas about building Zion. And this is the place that we want to make online, where all things are discussed, great ideas are shared, and that we can help one another in whatever calling we're in or what calling we're not in, to feel like, you know, I've got purpose here. I can really make a difference in shifting culture in a better way or developing Zion in my own corner of the kingdom. So join us over at zion lab@leadingsaints.org Zion and there you can just jump in. It's free to join and create a profile and jump in and look around and answer some questions, leave a comment, pose a question. And I think you'll benefit from the things we're doing over at Zion Lab. So join us. So you're checking us out as maybe a potential podcast you could start listening to. I know many of you have been listening for a long time, but let me just talk to the newbies for a minute. What is Leading Saints? What are we trying to do here with this podcast? Well, let me explain. Leading Saints is a nonprofit organization. A 501C3 is what they call it. And we have a mission to help Latter Day Saints be better prepared to lead. Now, of course, often means in the context of a calling. It may mean in your local community, your work assignments. We've heard about our content influencing all sorts of leaders in all sorts of different contexts. We invite you to listen to this episode and maybe a few others of our 500 plus episodes that we have out there, jump in and begin to learn and begin to consider some of these principles we talk about on the Leading Saints podcast. Here we go. I'm excited to welcome in Aaron Hale, who is the new president of Southern Virginia University. Now, some of you may be familiar with this special university, some of you may not be. It's a private university in Southern Virginia that is has the same standards as maybe you find at byu. However, it's an independent school separate from the church, but they want to champion the Latter Day Saint values and the Latter Day Saint type of experience at a university institution. And this is something that everybody, especially bishops or those with teenagers, getting closer to the college years to really consider as an option for going to university. Now, in the beginning of this interview, I talked with Aaron just about what is svu, maybe those who aren't familiar with it and just to kind of put it in the context of it. Then we talk about his personal leadership experience as a bishop in a stake presidency and just transitioning into this role as a college president. What is he considering? What principles is he drawing upon to really do this? Well, and I'm excited for any follow up interviews we have with him in the future as he's had years leading this university. And then we talk about a really cool program, really innovative program that SVU is doing is that gives college credit to return missionaries because of their service as a missionary. Right. This isn't just service work, which there's nothing wrong with good service work, but a mission is a dynamic experience that really transforms individuals in their progression, that really deserves college credit. And so really dynamic program that Southern Virginia University is doing called the Knight's Crest program. And it will give you all the information in the show notes for that. But join me as we explore leadership principles and concepts and talk a little bit about Southern Virginia University with its newest president, Aaron Hale. Aaron Hale, the newest president of Southern Virginia University. And you're brand new, right?
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B
Yeah, I've only been on the job for about five weeks.
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A
Holy cow. Yeah. And you're originally from Arizona. You're moving your family back east to have this experience.
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B
Fly back to Arizona tomorrow and then we drive out to Virginia.
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A
Awesome.
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B
Yeah.
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A
I bet you're excited.
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B
I mean, we are really excited. It's going to be quite an adventure. We've never, I mean, we lived in Houston for a couple years after our MBA program, but most of our lives have been in Arizona. My wife and I are both natives. Our kids have all been raised there. But we're excited. It's going to be a new adventure. And Virginia has fireflies, so I'm super excited for fireflies. I love fireflies.
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A
And the summers are a little bit more tempered than Arizona.
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B
They are a little, little cooler, but a lot more humid. So it's kind of a balance.
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A
So now you're replacing Bonnie Cordon.
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B
Yes.
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A
Who was. She's been there three.
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B
About three years. Yeah. Just under three years. Yeah.
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A
And she was at the. She was Young Women's.
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B
She's Young Women's General president. Prior to that.
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A
Prior to that. And now it's your turn. Was this. How'd this opportunity find you or led to it?
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B
Last September, our stake president invited Bonnie Cordon out to do a fireside in our state, kind of about education, SVU in general. The other counselor in the state presidency with me, his kids go to svu, and they're on the volleyball team, so he was really excited. So we had her come out, had a chance to talk with her and visit with her and her team. And then the next night, we went to a fundraiser for SVU that some of my friends had invited me to and got to hear her story multiple times and talk with her team, and they kept inviting, you got to come out and see svu. Come feel the spirit on campus. My wife and I were already scheduled to be in a conference in Virginia in late October, and we hadn't booked our plane tickets yet, so we just added on a day and decided we'll go out a day early and go see svu. Went to campus, took a tour. You know, it's beautiful. It's in the Shenandoah Valley. Just named one of the top 10 prettiest college campuses in Virginia out of, like, 144. So it's a big deal, and the students are amazing. So we talked to them, felt the spirit there. At the very end, they had their. One of their VPs kind of do a presentation for us kind of about SVU and what they do. And with my background in education, I just started asking questions about more operational questions that they didn't have a lot of answers for. And as we walked away, my wife just looked at me and she said, aaron, what they need is you. We should just move out here and help. I'm like, I can't just show up and say, hey, I'm here to help.
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A
Give me a job.
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B
Yeah, these friends of mine are on the board. Then. They've been talking to me about perhaps being on the board. Like, okay, if they asked me to be on the board of svu, then maybe I can come back and forth and help them out. For sure. This is a special place. I felt the spirit there. But we ended up spending, like, two hours driving around the town there, Buena Vista, and looking at houses and thinking, like, what would it be like to move here? And then we're like, what are we doing? Like, we're not ruined in Virginia. We live in Arizona. We love it. And so we continued on, had our conference, and it was great. But some of the things that Bonnie had said in her fireside had stuck with my wife. When she got asked to serve in that capacity, she originally told him no. She's like, I've just. I've come off of 10 years of church leadership. I just want to go home and clean up my closets and hold my grandbabies.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And my wife heard that, and that clean out her closet stuck with her. And so all through fall and Christmas time, my wife was just cleaning out closets. Like, she just felt like I need to be cleaning my closets. And then we met with some SV people. We did some scholarship stuff with them. And then in late January, these friends of mine who are on the board called me up and said, aaron, can we talk to you? So I went over to their house to visit, and they said, we just heard that Bonnie is retiring as president. We'd like to consider you as a potential president. Would you be interested? And because of those feelings we'd had on campus, I said, you know, yeah, I'll think about it. We'd consider. And so we went through the interview process, and they offered us the position. And I'd been mostly retired for the last couple years. We built a big organization. We have an amazing leadership team who runs it, and so I don't have to do a lot. And so the last couple years, a lot of our prayers have been, how can we build the kingdom? Lord? Where do you need us to serve? What can we do? And I got called into the Stake Presidency, and so that took a lot of my time. But we continue to have those prayers. And when this came, it felt like, this is the next step. This is where we need to really build the kingdom. Yeah. And it's not a church calling, because SVU is independent. It's not affiliated with the church, even though it is aligned. And so it really just kind of felt like a calling from the Lord, like, this is what he needed us to do. Similar to you. Like, no one in the church gave you a calling to do a podcast on leadership, but you have that feeling, like, this is what the Lord's calling me to do.
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A
Absolutely. So for those that don't know or they hear svu, like, why are we talking about some random Virginia college? And great, this guy's the president. He's a member or whatever. But what is svu? How would you extend this pandemic?
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B
It is really a special place. Southern Virginia University, back in the mid-90s, there was a member of the church in Richmond named Glade Knight, and he traveled out to University of Virginia, where Southern Virginia University is located, because the college that was there, Southern Seminary, was shutting down. Like, they financially just couldn't make it. It had been at all girls school. They tried to transition and but they had been an equestrian school and they had lots of horses. And he has a ranch. He loves horses. He's a real estate guy, but loves horses. And he continues in his 80s to still do cutting and roping and compete.
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A
Wow.
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B
But he went down there to check out the horses and as he walked into Main hall, this historic building built in the 1890s, he just had this vision of LDS students wandering the halls and this being a place for LDS students on the east coast to come and to get a high quality education. And so he had no desire to start a college, but he talked with some friends of his who were in church leadership there and they all got together and said, okay, we'll do this. They took on the debts of Southern SEM, took over the school and just continued running it, converted it into an LDS based university and it's grown from there. I think the first year they had 60 or 70 kids. And now we're up to about 1,000 and plan to grow to 3,000 in the next couple years.
- [09:39]
A
Wow, that's awesome. And now one thing we focus on with leading saints. Not only like, you know, good, practical church leadership. I'm called to this calling. Let's talk about it. But also what's come from our efforts with leading saints is this dynamic in our community of being a Zion builder and especially as we step into temples and make covenants to dedicate all our time, talents and everything that God has given us right to the building up of the church or the kingdom of God. And so I love the these types of stories of like, he could have waited around, thought, well, if the church wants me to start a college right
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B
here the last time. Yeah.
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A
And I don't know if there was anything in this story where he approached the church and said, hey, here's this idea.
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B
Or he just did it.
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A
Did it.
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B
Yeah. And you know, he and his family are very wealthy now. Like, he grew up on a small ranch. Poor.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And has built this real estate empire. But at the time in the mid-90s, he didn't have an empire. He was doing well, but not. He wasn't fabulously wealthy.
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A
He's not just writing checks to start college.
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B
Yeah. But he put a lot of money into it along the way and was giving until it hurt every time to keep this college running and to get it started. And he attributes his current financial success to that. Like, he sacrificed. He did what he felt like the Lord was calling to him to do. And because of that, the Lord blessed him and has blessed him immeasurably. And he's been able to give far more than he ever anticipated to the school because as the school has grown, his, his financial blessings have grown as well. And he continues to give and just be a huge supporter.
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A
And is, I don't know, is he still around or involved?
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B
He is. I actually was in his office yesterday meeting with him. Yeah. One of his sons is on the board and just a fabulous family who has really been a blessing to that area with his university. And the university has been a blessing to their family. I know at least three of their children met their spouses at Southern Virginia University, and I think they said that they're going to have three grandkids coming to school with us this year, getting all, getting home off their missions, want to come take advantage of our new Knight's Crest program. And so they're coming to svu.
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A
Yeah, well, and we have such a tradition in our faith community of being BYU bound. Right. And, and so many of us, there's so many that would like to go. I'll just answer here. I was rejected from BYU three times. So no hard feelings, but anyways. But that's sort of the reality for a lot of graduating seniors. And so like, how would you. What's the difference? Obviously, BYU's church owned, church run.
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B
Right.
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A
What's the, the major differences that someone's going to experience by going to SVU as opposed to byu?
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B
Well, the major difference is we have a thousand kids on campus and they have 35,000. Okay, so. So really you know everyone on campus? Yeah, I mean, a thousand kids, you don't know everyone personally because you're. Your circle of friends is usually 50 to 70 people. But you know, your professors, your classes are, you know, 20 to 30 kids in a class. So we have a 93% grad school placement rate. That's medical school, law school, business school. Because our professors know you and so they write amazing letters of recommendation for you. They help guide you into the school they fit, would think would best fit your skills and your future desires. And so, you know, I've heard of people who get accepted by you and choose SVU because they want to go to medical school or law school and they know I have a higher percentage of getting it, higher percentage chance of getting into medical school if I go to SVU than BYU just because of that personal touch and that access to the professors. You know, we have. We don't have a professional cadre of college advisors. Our professors are our college advisors. You assign to a professor and they are Your advisor, they help you pick your classes and walk through the process. And along with that, because it's smaller and more intimate, it's more of a community feel, you don't get lost. If you don't show up to class, your professor knows, they know your name, and they'll reach out and say, hey, why weren't you here today? You know, you don't show up to your freshman econ class at BYU, there's 300 kids in class. No one notices. Like, it's just. You blend in and it's same. I went to Arizona State University. Same thing. My econ classes, my freshman classes were all big, massive lecture classes. But at svu, you get that personalized attention and you get that ability to customize your degree, customize what you're looking for. We have a core that's about 38 credits. And then our majors are mostly 38 to 40 credits. So you have room in your schedule to have either a second major or a minor or. You know, we have a lot of students who come and they're majoring in business or they're majoring in our sports performance program, but they were musicians, and so they're singing in the choir, they're playing an instrument. Whereas at a big university like byu, there's so many music majors. If you're not a music major, you're not singing in a choir. Like, you're not getting in. Whereas here you can have that flexibility and you have that opportunity to do more things.
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A
Yeah. And are there, like, religion courses? And there are.
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B
So we have a. The largest institute east of the Rocky Mountains is on our campus, and we give credit for institute classes just like BYU would. And so you go to institute, you take the classes there, and you come back, they. Those credits transfer right into us.
- [14:23]
A
Interesting. So obviously, the sni, the institute seminary institutes are. Are hiring and putting teachers there.
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B
But so we're not church funded, mostly because the church does fund the institute. SNI hires the institute professors, the directors, they run those classes, and then we award credit for that. So they're spending, I don't know, a half million dollars a year on our institute, which is really a subsidy for us to some extent, because if not, we would have to be hiring our own religion teachers, but we use that. The church's institute professors.
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A
Yeah. Now, I assume you have some student body who are not members of the church.
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B
Yeah, we're about 8, 85% members of the church.
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A
And so as they enroll, I mean, it's very clear this is a Latter Day Saint Experience, Academic experience.
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B
Yeah. And we just, you know, the institute last year started a class for non members because they've, you know, it's kind of an investigation class. What is the church. And it's been very well attended. And those students really are interested because they're surrounded members of the church. On Sunday everyone goes to institute and so. Or to church, the YSA wards. And so a lot of them just go with them because those are all their friends, those are their teammates. You know, we have more student athletes than BYU does.
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A
Oh, wow.
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B
We have a ton of athletic programs and that really is one of the draws that we have, is that you can come and play your sport. If you're not done in high school, you're not going to D1, you're not going pro, but you still want to keep playing, come play at SVU. Last year in 25, we won the national championship for volleyball. Our rugby team, our rugby team is actually D1 because there's not a D3 in rugby. And we were, I think we were ranked 9th in the nation this year. Phenomenal programs.
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A
Cool. So then these religious courses aren't necessarily like required, like at byu?
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B
No, no, no, they're not required.
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A
These are, but they're there and you can get credit.
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B
Yeah, and that's one of the differences between us and the BYU schools. We are aligned with the church and we have an honor code very similar to byu, but because we are not affiliated with the church, we don't have access to ecclesiastical endorsements. So if a student doesn't want to get an ecclesiastical endorsement or can't for some reason or another, but still wants that faith based education, they can come to us. We still have the honor code, no smoking, no drinking, no premarital sex, anything like that. And so it's a safe environment, but one that's a little more where it's the student's choice. Yeah, they're making those choices to keep the commandments and to keep the honor code. And so they have just a little more flexibility there. But it's fun to see students who came, you know, and I met student after student those couple weeks I've been on campus who came to byu, came to SVU to play their sport, their play volleyball, play football, with, with no intention of serving mission. They wanted the faith based, but they weren't going on missions. And I'm talking to my. What are you doing next? I've got my mission call. I've got my mission call. Just so much because of that environment. They just come and they're surrounded by other faithful Latter Day Saints. And what everyone's doing is going to stute, going to the YSA War on Sunday, going to the temple on Saturday. And so they just go along with them and their testimonies are strengthened. And it's really a place where we see a lot of miracles.
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A
Are there any other colleges like this who are somewhat faith Latter Day Saint base?
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B
Oh no, this is the church. This is it. Yeah. So we were, I was actually at a conference on Monday. It was the American Council on Education's Commission on Faith Based Education that Clark Gilbert started several years ago. And so we were there. There are probably 50 universities and colleges from around the nation. There's about a thousand faith based institutions in the country and about 50 of us were there. And it was fun because, you know, it was byu, BYU Idaho, BYU Hawaii, you know, Ensign College and US and Southern Virginia. And we were just kind of that we're that group of Latter Day Saints. But it was also Notre Dame and the Catholic University of America and. Yes, what university? And Baylor and all these Christian and Jewish organizations. And it was so cool to have everyone there together as friends and supporting each other. And we have different, obviously religious doctrines and different beliefs and creeds, but we all are trying to build faith in these young adults and so we all support each other in that. It was really, I was just so profoundly touched by this conference. It was an amazing experience.
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A
That's awesome. So just starting this experience, I mean you have experience in leadership, you've run. How would you explain sort of your career up to this point? You've run, helped.
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B
Yeah. So charter schools. Yeah. So my wife and I with some co founder started Legacy Traditional school back in 2020 or 2007 was our first year that we opened and we grew it from a small school of 400 kids to we now have 30 campuses, we're building a couple more. We have nearly 30,000 kids. And then we also saw a need for other charter schools, needed support that we, we kind of create our own district office. And so we now do back office support for another 400 charter schools. About 260,000 kids we support across the nation.
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A
That's cool. So I mean then this is just, I mean essentially a big charter school.
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B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And this is independently. Yeah, we've been, you know, K12 and now we're 12 16. So a little bit different, bigger kids and some different issues. We've never had. I've never had boarding before and have to deal with dorms and that sort of Thing, but, yeah, but the education side is very similar in the business side.
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A
So considering your professional life, you've been a bishop, you've been in a state presidency. And as you approach this role, like, I'm always intrigued by these transitions because it's not like anybody was fired or you're, you know, you're not inheriting a mass or anything, but it's just like, all right, take over and what principles or where are you starting as far as finding your, your footing there? Obviously you've got to get moved all the, the technicalities there.
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B
But, yeah, so I've only been on campus for about two weeks total. So I, I did a week before President Cordon left, kind of transitioning with her. And then the first week of me starting, I was on campus, and then we, then I was. The next week I was back east or back west doing fundraisers and already jumping and meeting donors for svu. And then we had kids still in school. But that first week when I was still transitioning, I went to what we call academy meeting. It's our meeting of a lot of our director level or VPs, 26 to 30 leaders. And I asked each of them, I said, you know, what is your top priority? Like, what is your focus? And each one of them gave me a different answer. And they're all good. They're all very much related to what they were doing, what they were, they individually were focused on. But it made me think, there's not a lot of clarity as to what is the organization's mission. Like, what are we doing together? How are we moving forward? And so that first week that I was on the job, I spent two hours a day with our executive team. And the only thing we discussed is what is our North Star? What is the guiding principle that leads Southern Virginia University? And we had debate and discussion back and forth, and by the end of the week, so two hours a day for all week long. And what we came up with and we settled on and really felt the spirit confirming, is we teach students to discern truth and choose Christ, that they may be prepared in all things. And so that is kind of that guiding principle that we use as we look at new programs or new classes or what we're teaching is, is this going to help students to discern truth and choose Christ? And that really is our focus. How do we help our students to build faith and testimony while at the same time still getting an education that they can use to support their families and to contribute to the world for the rest of their lives?
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A
And this is an interesting dynamic. I think you even see on, like, a ward level where there's so many capable perspectives and voices in the room, and they. It's easy for them to sort of have a bias as it relates to maybe their organization. And, you know, they kind of feel like the word mission should be kind of in line with their. Their mission.
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B
Right.
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A
And sometimes I think a lot of leaders, the temptation is, well, we'll just do it all. Right? And because these are all valiant efforts and focuses. So, yeah, we'll do it all. We'll figure it out. You know, we'll come together. But then it can really cause confusion or you really don't go anywhere.
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B
Yeah, yeah. And, you know, it's that story, the oxidant. If you're not equally yoked and you're not all pulling in the same direction, you just can't accomplish as much. And that really is something that, when I was bishop and then even with my executive team at the charter school that we talked about is when you're in those meetings, when you're in ward council, when you're in our executive meetings, you are not the representative of your organization to that meeting. In the meeting, you are a member of that council. And it doesn't matter what your area of expertise is. We all contribute to how we build the organization, and we're not protecting our own fiefdoms, but we are what is best for the organization.
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A
Yeah. That seems so small and can be looked over, but it really is true. It can. Sometimes you can build a culture, like in a ward council, where everybody's here to report. Right. Like, all right, primary, what's going on there? You know, with the youth? Let's spend some time there. But I've even heard there's been, you know, I'm not saying this. This is in the handbook, and maybe it will be in the handbook and. But anyways, I've heard of some bishops, like, even set apart individuals as not only their calling, but as a member of the war council. Right. And I think that shifts the culture of saying we're not just here to sort of jockey for attention in your auxiliary or make sure that you're doing your program. But how can we come together and really consider the. The ward or the organization as a group?
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B
Yeah. One of your past guests talked about that, how they. Their first thought isn't, who's the new primary present going to be? But is, who do I want on the ward council? Yeah. And then once I pray about who that should be on the Ward council. Then I find the spot that fits them and their expertise. But it's. It really is building that council together.
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A
Yeah. And another area that sometimes is we recalling new counselors or people in auxiliary organizations we default to. Well, who doesn't have a calling when in rally's like, I know the least site president loves her first counselor, but the young women feel like maybe there's some need there. And so let's talk about it. What does the greater body need rather than just sort of trying to protect your organization?
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B
Yeah, exactly. And you talked about, you know, you come in and often a word counsel is just a reporting. Everyone says, okay, what's going on in the organization, that drives me crazy. Like, that is not how I ran my ward councils. So one of my greatest mentors was my dad, and he was. He finished being bishop just a couple months before I was called. And so I would go over to his house every week and we'd sit down on his brown couches and we'd talk about what's going on, like, what are the struggles I'm having, what's the issues? And he told me a story. He was in a bishopric training one time with their stake. And one of the other bishops got up and detailed how, you know, they went through. They had like 175 different points on their agenda for ward council of all these very detailed, what they're going to cover, what they're going to talk about. And he looked at his counselors and said, do you see what he's. You see that right there, that, that lesson? Oh, we're not doing that. And I didn't do that either when we got in. I didn't like talking about events that can be coordinated outside of work Council, you know, that can be emails in my word councils. I wanted to talk about people, you know, what are the needs? Like, who is struggling right now, how can we help them? Or how can we simply bless the ward? How can we move missionary work forward? You know, let's talk about real issues that the whole ward council needs to counsel about, not what kind of food are we going to have at our next activity. Yeah, like that's something can be done offline, that can be. But when you're there as a council, it's such a. You're pulling people away from their family, such a valuable time that you want to use it. Use it.
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A
Well, yeah, if you were coaching someone to, like, kind of run a council type of meeting, I mean, is there any, any principles or concepts that they could anchor into?
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B
Yeah, first is that discussion of what is the most important thing. Whatever you talk about first is going to get the most time. And what you put on last on your agenda, you're probably not going to get to. Because the first things are. And so put the first things first, prioritize those things that are most important and then talk about the things that are of most value to your organization. As I was observing some of these initial meetings at Southern Virginia University with our executive team, they spent a lot of time talking about food, about meal plans, and it's important for the students, it really is. But I asked the question, I said, okay, how much money do we make off of meal plans? I said, nothing. It's a break even at best. I said, okay, we're not going to talk about meal plans anymore in this meeting. This meeting is an expensive meeting. You look at what we're paying each person, salary wise, the same thing in the church. You look at your ward council, if you were paying them their hourly wage of what their job is, those are expensive meetings. So talk about things that are of most value, that are really going to move the needle for the organization. And that's, you know, in a ward at Southern Virginia University, we're looking at what is going to impact students, what's going to help them to discern truth and choose Christ. And discussions about meal plans weren't doing it. And so we focus on, you know, really what is going to impact students, what's going to make a difference in their lives. It's the same thing in ward council. What's really going to make a difference in the lives of these ward members? Let's talk about that.
- [26:27]
A
Yeah. And that becomes easier as you sort of formulate that clear vision of what we're actually trying to do in the beginning. So that you can kind of always measure up these different topics against that. Right?
- [26:37]
B
Yeah. When we started in our new state presidency, I was called about 15 months ago and you know, we have high council, you know, twice a month. And one of the jobs responsibilities of the high council is that the missionary return missionaries report to them. When we started the missionaries, our council meeting starts at 7, the first missionaries there at 7, 10, and it was going until 8, 15, the missionary reports and then we'd have 15 minutes to okay, who has it something. And then we'd end and we talked about it as a state presidency and said, you know, this isn't really, we're not utilizing the high Council, pulling away from their families just to listen to missionary reports. And so we reorganized Our high council. And so missionary reports didn't happen until 8 o'.
- [27:13]
A
Clock.
- [27:13]
B
So the last half hour and however many we had, we just allocated that amount of time. But then, and they loved it because then they can come late, they're coming at 8 instead of 7, and it's great for them. But then our high council comes and each week it was counseling about something in particular when we have our state council. We had our primary president came in and she led the discussion about how can we better involve primary kids in the ward and in sacrament meeting. And so we had an hour long discussion with the Stake and Women's presidency and the Stake Relief Society presidency, primary presidency, all the high counselors. And that was a valuable meeting. That was a meeting where we moved the needle. Ideas were happening, revelation was flowing. And so looking for opportunities to do that, to really get to a spot where you're, you're counseling together, you know, it's been said multiple times, you know, revelation is scattered about. And as a leader, your job is to find it, to help discover it and to provide opportunities for people to share those thoughts that they have, you know, and provide an environment where you're open and welcoming. I love to do puzzles. I do puzzles with my kids. And if we've all grabbed some puzzle pieces and we're all working on the puzzle together, but we have one person who's afraid to use their piece because they might put it in the wrong spot, you get to the end and the puzzle is not completed, it's not whole, you're missing pieces of it. It's the same thing in our council meetings. If you have members of the council who are worried about expressing their opinion or they're not going to look good, or people are going to make fun of them or not like what they say, they're not going to share those little bits of revelation that they're receiving. And we need to make an open environment where everyone can talk and share their ideas and their thoughts. And not all ideas are good ideas, but that's okay, because your idea, if it's not the one that was adopted by the council, might have sparked someone else's thought, who sparked someone else's thought. And it's all part of that process of gaining revelation. And it's funny, you know, you're talking to ward counselor in a meeting like that and you're, you're counseling that in the beginning there's just lots of discussion, lots of ideas, and you're debating back and forth and then suddenly you come to an idea and it's the right one. And suddenly you're like, oh, of course. This. Obviously, this is the solution. And it's like. It's like it was always there. And you almost forget we just spent a half hour debating to get to this point. But once you get there, it's just well clear. This is the solution. This is the option. But you couldn't get there unless everyone was sharing their thoughts and their revelation and their little bits and pieces that all come together to make that final whole.
- [29:29]
A
Yeah. Is there anything that. And this is. Maybe there's nothing here. It's not. Everybody has a clear way of doing this. But as far as drawing that out and teasing kind of that engagement out of those in the room, because sometimes people hold back and, you know, sometimes you look for the person who's been most quiet and point them out. But anything else that. To get everybody engaged.
- [29:50]
B
Yeah. The first thing is, as the leader, especially as the bishop, is to almost never talk, at least never express opinions or ideas. You can ask questions. And that really is the role. That's the role I took on as bishop because I found that as soon as I expressed an idea, that was it, discussion stopped, because everyone's like, oh, the bishop has spoken. This is the word of the Lord. Like, and that's not what I was intending. I was intending just to throw out ideas, because at work, people don't give that much deference to me, even as the leader. Like, yeah, they're okay, great, Aaron, let's do it. Let's continue discussing. And so they continue to discuss. But in our church settings, we see the leader as kind of not infallible, but close to it. And so when the bishop speaks, everyone's like, okay, well, the bishop's spoken. Now we're done. And so bishops and stake presidents have to be very cautious to not express ideas as much, because it tends to end discussion. But that's where it's incumbent upon counselors to then drive that discussion. Because the counselors may have been in the bishopric meeting prior, the state presidency meeting prior. They know some of the ideas that their leader is having, and so they need to be the ones sharing those ideas. Because when the counselor says it, everyone's like, oh, yeah, great idea. Let's discuss it now. Whereas if the bishops had the exact same idea, they'd be like, okay, well, we're done.
- [30:55]
A
Yeah.
- [30:56]
B
And so in the Stake presidency, that was one of the roles that we tried to take. We tried to, as counselors, lead those discussions and derive those discussions and ask those Questions so that our stake president didn't have to, because when he did, people would just stop talking because now the state president spoken. And so it's a different dynamic in the church setting as opposed to an outside organization, but one you have to be very aware of as the leader and be cognizant of. But then, like you said, you have to be looking for those who aren't speaking. Those you can often see in their face where you see an idea come to them, and they haven't raised their hand, they haven't expressed it, and you're like, okay, what was the thought you just had? They're like, what do you mean? Like, I saw it on your face. Share it. And they're hesitant because if they. If they're ready to share it, they would have just shared it. But then they'll say, and you're like, that's the thought we needed. And it's practicing that and doing that over and over again so that when the thought comes, they've had enough experience of you being open to those thoughts that they are willing to share it, that they are willing to say, oh, yeah, here's the thought I had. And even if the thought totally changes, it's what needed that moment to spark the discussion and keep the things rolling.
- [31:57]
A
Yeah, that's awesome. I want to go back to. You talk about, you know, you heard these different visions or perspectives from some of the professors or the staff at svu. What was the process of doing? Did you have individual interviews with all of them? Like, are you just trying to.
- [32:14]
B
So this was. That was in a big discussion. I just went around, oh, okay, gotcha. I said, what is your priority? Each person said kind of what their name was, what their job title is, and then what their main priority is. So I started. I was there that week before graduation and then the week after graduation. But as soon as graduation happens, people just kind of scatter. Like, professors in particular, because they're not contracting anymore, their summers are off. And so I haven't had a ton of time to meet with all our professors yet, meet with our staff. And that's one of the things I want to do when we come back in, you know, in August, is sit down one on one with everyone, like, and ask them these questions, you know, ask them what is good? What is good here that we need to make sure we preserve as we grow and as we scale. And what do we need to change? Like, what. What needs to be different for this time in this season?
- [32:59]
A
Yeah, that's awesome. Any other concept or principles. You sort of. And this is the type of thing it would be fun to, you know, come back, regroup in a few years as you're really get the lay of the land and everything. But as far as transitioning in this role or thoughts that come to mind is how you do that. Or principles.
- [33:16]
B
Yeah. So the first time you asked that question that came to mind is, I love a lot of leadership books by Patrick Lencioni. He wrote the Advantage and Death by Meetings and stuff like that. And so that was one of the things that I. The first meeting I led with our group there, I said the concept that meetings. I asked him, what would you rather go to a meeting or a movie? Because Patrick asked that question. Everyone's like, oh, a movie. But in a movie, a meeting should be more important. Like, you should want to go to a meeting more than a movie, because in a movie, the outcome's already predetermined. Nothing you do can change this movie.
- [33:46]
A
It is.
- [33:46]
B
It's going to be what it does, but it is. And it doesn't impact your life. It's just a movie. Whereas a meeting that you're in, like a word council or some of these executive meetings were in, it impacts the lives of the people in the meeting and a lots of other people's lives. And they can contribute, they can make an impact. And so, and we have this discussion about our meetings should be fun. They should be conflict. We should be having discussions. We should be arguing back and forth and trying to come up with the best solution because what we're doing matters. And if we're not debating it and we're not caring about it, well, then we're talking about the wrong thing, because we're talking about something that doesn't matter because obviously no one cares about it. Let's move to something that does matter, where there is going to be a little discussion and debate because it's going to make an impact in your lives. And you should come away from meetings excited and energized.
- [34:30]
A
Yeah, yeah. And that's interesting. I appreciate that movie comparison because, you know, movies are obviously much more engaging. Obviously, there's sometimes a narrative, but it's because of the conflict and the struggle and things. And movies can also be quite transformational.
- [34:45]
B
Right.
- [34:45]
A
Where meetings are kind of like, all right, do we make it down the checklist? You know, are we good? Do we talk about this?
- [34:50]
B
But our meetings should be transformational.
- [34:52]
A
Yeah.
- [34:52]
B
Our meetings really should be something that changes us, but it requires people being open, being vulnerable, willing to call other People out willing to have those discussions, willing to push back. And sometimes it's hard in a church setting to do that. We're like, oh, we're all volunteers and we don't want to step on people's toes and work. We're sometimes a little more willing to do that sort of thing. But in church, we need to be more willing to do. And it's a comment upon the leader, on the bishop, on the stake president, to draw that out to get people to have debates and have discussions, because if you don't, you end up with just random things. We had a steak service activity that was already planned before I got in, but it ended up being like. Ended up being a great activity. The youth loved it. It was great. But it was these just four random disjointed projects that were all happening at the same time because the youth had ideas in the meeting and no one wanted to counteract anyone else's idea. And so they just said, okay, we'll do all the ideas. And it was great. The service project turned out really good. But sometimes that happens that we're just. We're not willing to say to anyone, well, that's a bad idea. And so we just accept every idea. And it kind of waters down our intent and our purpose sometimes. And so sometimes you need to have that conflict and say, okay, that's an idea. Thanks for sharing that. Let's, let's talk about how, how can we make that better? How could that fit into the overall plan and, and really push back a little bit and figure out what is the right solution, but do it in a way that you're not saying, well, that's a stupid idea, because then people are going to talk again. Right. They're not going to share the next idea. You want them to share ideas. And that's one of the things I told my. My team. I said, you know what? I'm an idea generator. I'm just going to toss out any idea that comes to my mind, and I need you to say if it's good or bad, and we can have a discussion about it. And some of my ideas will be stupid. That's okay, because it's going to spark something in someone else, and we're going to get better ideas for that, and some will be good. So let's discuss all of them.
- [36:44]
A
Yeah, that's cool. Awesome. Now, I do want to touch on, like, this approach that you're. And maybe tell us the story as far as the, the Knight's Crest program.
- [36:53]
B
Yeah.
- [36:54]
A
And I'm Curious to be met. Who's the founder of SVU Glade? Is this. Is this based on his name or.
- [36:59]
B
Yeah, yeah, so. So, you know, Southern Virginia. Our mascot is the Knights.
- [37:02]
A
Oh, okay.
- [37:03]
B
And based on his name, we have a beautiful bronze knight statue in front of campus. It's gorgeous. But our crest program is our credit for recognized experience, service, and training. So for decades in the accreditation literature, it has allowed for colleges to give credit for experiential learning and for service opportunities. And most colleges do for military service. Like, they recognize the military transcript and they'll give credit for military service, and we do as well. But it wasn't until last year, I think, Utah University of Utah announced they were doing something very similar. They were giving credit for missionary service. And so they kind of, you know, a big state university kind of pioneered the way of saying, okay, we're doing this. We're using what's already in the accreditation literature. And so we had some of our associate provost who were already working on this, and I had the idea and I emailed them, and they're like, oh, we had the same idea. Here's the documentation we've already prepared. And I said, okay. And this was all through March and early April. I said, okay, I want this live 1st of May. As soon as I take over this wants. I want this to be the first thing we do. So now I'm returning missionary. When they're coming home, they can get up to 24 credit hours, you know, 12 for language, which most schools do, and another 12 for things like leadership, you know, teamwork, critical thinking, cultural immersion, teaching, all those sorts of things that are really. That they're learning on their mission experience, they're gaining. That's already in the accreditation literature, that's already aligned to classes we teach. So they'll come back and they create a portfolio. We'll walk them through the process, and it's going to be, you know, multiple pages that documents, what did you do on your mission that justifies college credit. And we walk them through that process, and then they, you know, they start as a freshman, and then their freshman year as a junior, wife's a year off of their degree. And by doing that, it ends up making us 40 to $50,000 cheaper than BYU schools and, you know, 100 to $150,000 cheaper than other big private institutions because that you're not paying for education that fourth year, and instead you' working. And so that differential just flips really quickly on the math of going to school.
- [39:04]
A
Yeah, that's interesting. So it's 24 total credit hours, 24 credits available. And because typically, as many know, you know, you learn a language on your mission, you come home, you kind of just sort of take the test and yeah. Try and gain that credit. But this, you know, that's not available to everybody. And the greater holistic experience is really what was the.
- [39:22]
B
Yeah, and so this is, you know, for those who didn't learn, they went on their mission. We're still wiping a semester off your degree. You're gonna still get these other 12 credits because, you know, most schools are gonna treat you like a freshman straight out of high school, but you're not. You just spent two years or 18 months serving a mission, serving in some other place that's not your home, teaching people, tracting and all the teamwork, leadership, all those different skills that are very verifiable that we can document and we can give you credit for those.
- [39:47]
A
So. And they're again, it's not like they're just showing confirmation that they served a mission. No, no, no. That. Is there like a presentation involved or what process?
- [39:55]
B
Like they create a portfolio and you know, for some of them it's just going to be writing a paper. For some of it might be creating a PowerPoint presentation, which is actually one of the things that I love because it's allowing these missionaries to come home and then spend some time reflecting on their mission and reflecting on what they learned and documenting it. You know, they've learned so much on their mission, but unless they take time to document it, it's hard for them to articulate to a future employer. And so this walks them through the process of how do you document it to justify these credits? But then that helps us to build out your resume as well. And not to say missionary service is one line on the bottom. I served in Argentina or wherever, I served in California, Spanish speaking. But to document, I did this in leadership wise and I did this from an education and I did this from a cultural immersion standpoint. I did this from a service standpoint and to really document what you learned on your mission. And so now instead of this line of this two year gap period in your resume, this is two years of documented experience that we've helped you build out through this portfolio process.
- [40:53]
A
Yeah, because it is, I think we've all been through that, you know, doing our resume and you don't, you don't want this to be a gap there. So you're like 24 months of religious service. Yeah, but it's so much more than that, yes. You know, because there's leadership in there. There's really, you know, organizing things and you know, it's much different. Just, oh, I taught a bunch of people and knocked on doors or whatever. Their. It's, it really is an experience.
- [41:16]
B
Yeah. And so that, that's what I love about this program. In addition to the college credits, which is great. It gets you through your degree faster. You're really building out that resume and, and articulating clearly what you did so that a future employer sees that as two more years of work experience rather than just a two year gap year.
- [41:31]
A
Yeah. And is there obviously, like you said, 85% that are latter Day Saints in your student body? Is there other types of service that
- [41:40]
B
will fit into this? Yeah, so military Service, Peace Corps, AmeriCorps. We actually, we are one of the first universities in the world to also give credit for full time parenting and full time caregivers. You're cared for a parent for the last years of their life. There are lessons you learn there that we can help you document that will qualify you for credit as well.
- [41:58]
A
Yeah. And it's so funny how just this tradition of academia and whatever, like sometimes I remember taking some courses and I'm like, I didn't learn much there, but I jumped through the hoops. I got the grade and I got out. Right. But it, it felt different where it's like these other life experiences. I couldn't just jump through the hoops. And to be able to, you know, exchange that value and that experience for credit that gets you towards, you know, a credentialed degree is awesome. Yeah, that's really cool.
- [42:25]
B
Yeah, we're excited for it. It's gonna be a great program.
- [42:27]
A
And so is that, is that going now or is that.
- [42:29]
B
It is. So we actually, you know, our, some of our current students are working on it and we have an event tonight at Thanksgiving point. One of our students, Hiram, is going to be presenting and he is going through the portfolio building process this summer. He's a returned missionary. He thought he had two more years on his degree with this. He's going to graduate next May and beyond to law school. So it's accelerating his life and getting him through school faster and real tangible benefits for our students.
- [42:51]
A
Yeah. Anything else about this? I mean, this is awesome. I mean, it's something that would have really helped me, you know, back in the day.
- [42:57]
B
Yeah, we just, we just want to get the word out to mission presidents and stake presidents, these missionaries who are coming home, they're talking with their mission President. Those last, you know, a couple of interviews where they're going through MyPlan, and this is a great thing for mission presidents to share on MyPlan about, hey, this is. Consider SVU. This is a way to get up to 24 additional credits, knock a year off your degree in a faith centered university. Same thing with state presidents. As you're coming, as these missionaries are coming home, they're interviewing, you're asking, what's your next step? Like, what are you planning? You're asking about jobs and college. Make sure they're aware about Southern Virginia University and this Knights Crest program because it really can make a huge impact in their life.
- [43:32]
A
Yeah. And obviously it's awesome to be done in the context of university, but I'm excited to see where this goes, where it's such a wonderful exercise. Regardless of someone's in school. How do we articulate that experience so that it's not just, oh, yeah, we took a break for two years or whatever, but it's more of that. You can really talk to an employee about what you did or those things. I think that'll be cool to see how that refines and.
- [43:57]
B
Yeah. And I think that's something that, like you said, even if they don't come to Southern Virginia University, all missionaries should be doing is you come home and sit down and document. What did you do?
- [44:05]
A
Yeah.
- [44:05]
B
So you can articulate to an employer. Because it makes a difference. Yeah.
- [44:09]
A
All right, now your next task is to do the same thing for being a bishop. Or like, maybe someone's. Go back to grad school and be.
- [44:17]
B
Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. If you. If you come to us and you've been a bishop for five years in the state presidency, we will work with your portfolio process and get you credit for that.
- [44:23]
A
I think you're required just to give them a PhD actually.
- [44:26]
B
Here you go.
- [44:26]
A
You're done. So anyways, that's all awesome.
- [44:28]
B
Yeah. But if he wants to look at it, it's SVU Edu Crest. So easy to find.
- [44:33]
A
Yeah. We'll put all the links in the. In the show notes and things. And of course, you know, as a college president, you have a duty of, you know, you want to market your school well and you want people to come take a look. And obviously you got websites, you got things to Latter Saints can consider. Anything else you would recommend. Do you want, like a campus visit, if possible? Especially those East Coast Saints that are campus visits.
- [44:55]
B
If there's a stake president who wants us to come out and talk to their stake words, we are happy to do that, we travel all over the country. We'll bring some students to talk to your stake and to youth conferences. We're going down and doing a YSA conference in August in Florida, but especially on the east coast, we're there. And that's one of the things that really has been or is going to be one of my focuses is how do we attract more east coast students? Because there has been a trend in higher education away from go out of state, you know, and go find yourself in some other place and towards go to school closer to home. Most students, now 80% of students, want to go to school within five hours of their home. And so that's what we've been looking at, is how do we help those students? Just let them know that we exist, that we're here. You know, there's within five hours of us, there's 15,000 LDS seniors every year. And a lot of them are coming back west or going to, you know, any of the BYU schools or any of the Utah schools. And the problem is they find a spouse out here and then they stay out here in the West. And so you kind of start hollowing out some of that leadership on the east coast, where we want the church to grow out there. There's 100,000 members in Virginia. But there needs to be more than that. We need to continue to grow the church, and it's fun. We talked a little bit earlier about the history of Southern Virginia University. We're in this little enclave in the south of members. It's this Shenandoah Valley. It's gorgeous. But it was a place that J. Golden Kimball back In the late 1800s, early 1900s, he was the first missionary there.
- [46:17]
A
Oh, wow.
- [46:18]
B
And he would hide in the mountains because people wanted to kill him. And he would come down at night to teach people in this little valley. And some of the families he baptized are still there in that valley. And they're the leaders of the church. Now, 100 years later, and the church has grown. You have a stake there, we have a YSA stake there. And it's just this little pocket of faith. I don't know. It's really fun. It's an amazing experience.
- [46:39]
A
Well, and especially for the sake of my home prices here in Utah. Maybe go to svu, maybe marry someone there, stay there. It's a beautiful part of the country.
- [46:47]
B
Beautiful houses are cheaper there. Yeah. Cost of living is lower, so love it.
- [46:52]
A
Really good. Any other point, principle, concept, you want to make sure we cover before we wrap up or how do we do yeah.
- [46:58]
B
So, you know, one of the things that I wish I would have done better as a bishop was ministering to the one and to all of the ones. So I did great. Like anyone who had problems, I was out ministering. I was. That wasn't the issue. I was really good at ministering to that one who was in need. What I didn't realize was that those people who don't appear to be in need still are. One of the first weeks after I was called into the Stake Presidency, I needed to look up someone's contact information, and I couldn't remember what ward. I knew they were in a bishopric, but I couldn't remember the ward they were in. So I just went on to leader and clerk resources, and I clicked on the High Priest Quorum because that's. I knew every bishop group members in the High Priest Quorum. When you click on it, the first thing you see is the High Priest Quorum presidency, which is the stake presidency. I saw my name there, and then I click into the next tab, which are the Quorum members. And I realized, this is our Quorum. Like, we are the Quorum presidency for the High Priest Quorum. And I've talked to state presidency members in the past who talk about how, oh, we wish we were bishops. We wish we could, because that's when you minister to the saints more. I thought, that doesn't have to be the case. This could be one of the greatest ministering experiences of my life as I get a chance to minister to all of these amazing leaders in the stake. And so, you know, I took the chance to take out our bishops to lunch, to take the high counselors to lunch, start taking out bishopric members. Because I remember when I was bishop, it's a lonely calling. There's no one you can talk to. And I was blessed. I had my dad, who had just finished serving as bishop, but also the CEO of our company, whose office was right next to mine. He was a bishop at the same time I was. And so right after I got called, good friend of mine, I'd go over almost every day and say, hey, Brandon, he currently serves as a mission president in Brazil. I'd say, brandon, what do you think of this? And we just talk probably an hour a day. Those first couple weeks, I was taking his time, and he would just counsel with me. And then a couple years later, he got called into the Stake Presidency. And it just. Great, now you're a state presidency. Now I can share names with you. So we talk. And really. And that makes such a difference when you're in those leadership positions, to have someone to talk to, but then as a leader, to also recognize that other leaders need help. They're not immune to problems and sorrows and difficulties. I took one of our counselors in the bishopric out to lunch. I just felt I should talk to him. Amazing guy, just amazing leader, great with the youth, amazing family. And as I was talking with him, he just shared that he was feeling kind of beaten down, like his faith was lower. It was just hard. Life, work and family and calling and all that was hard. And as we talked, I asked, I said, so how often do you go to the temple? He said, I go every couple months, mainly with the youth. I said, when was the last time you just went? And it had been a while and he had served his mission in Japan and we've been talking about that. And he said, yeah. He said, I would love to take Japanese names to the temple. Is there a way that I can just find Japanese names? I said, well, is there anyone from your mission who you're still in contact with? And he said, well, actually there's a branch present in this small branch out in the middle of nowhere who I still email with regular, who does family history work, contact him. And so he did. And he texted me a picture a week later of this Japanese name that he just finished doing at the temple and just, it changed his life. It brought the spirit into his life, especially doing that temple work on behalf of these Japanese saints who he loved. It just, it changed his outlook and he increased his faith and kind of brought him back out of the funk he was in. And that never would have happened if I hadn't thought, I'm going to reach out to a bishopric member. There's, you know, a stake of 3,000 people. There's plenty of people need to be ministered to. And most people wouldn't think to take a bishopric member to lunch. But I just listened to the, you know, the Bing talk and those names come into my mind. I'd be like, okay, I'm just going to do it. I don't know why. And as a leader, that's one of the things that I wish I would have done better earlier in my tenure as bishop is just take everyone out and not worry about, oh, they seem like they're doing fine. If their thought comes to your mind, act on it, reach out to them, see how they're doing. We don't know what people are struggling with and so many people need more and they just need that one on
- [50:41]
A
one touch, love It So if people. Where would you want to. If they want to learn more about SVU or.
- [50:47]
B
Yeah, they can go to SVU Edu, which are just our main page, or SVU Edu Crest to learn about this nice Crest program and share it. Reach out to us. We're happy to talk to you through any questions. If you have a missionary out serving or returning, let them know about this program. Let your stake president, mission presidents, you know, let them know about it so we can get more. We want these missionaries to get the credit that they've already really earned and qualified for. We want to help as many of them as we can.
- [51:11]
A
Awesome. Well, last question I have for you is as you reflect on your time as a leader, how has being a leader helped you become a better follower of Jesus Christ?
- [51:19]
B
I think the more I interact with other people, the more I minister, the more I see and feel Christ's love for them. And it really. You just can't help loving people when you're serving them. And as you serve, you feel like, oh, it helps me to realize that Christ loves me in the same way that I'm feeling this love for them. And you know, someone as a bishop, someone come in and repent of some sin. And rather than being like, put off by it, I felt increased love towards them. And it makes me realize in my own life that I don't need to be worried about repenting, that when I repent, it brings Christ joy. Like the same way as when people come to me as a bishop to express repentance. And I felt joy because they were finally making this change. The Lord feels the same way. And so it helps me to be able to repent more, to come to him with my problems, knowing that he already knows I don't need to hide anything. And he's joyful when we come to him and when we repent. And that really has helped me as a leader to become a better follower of Jesus Christ.
- [52:22]
A
The end. That's it for this Leading Saints episode. I encourage you to check out some of the most popular episodes of the podcast that we list at the bottom of the show. Notes. If you haven't listened to all of those, do so now. It came as a result of the position of leadership which was imposed upon us by the God of Heaven, who brought forth a restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ. And when the declaration was made concerning the only true and living church upon the face of the earth, we were immediately put in a position of loneliness. The loneliness of leadership from which we cannot shrink nor run away. And to which we must face up with boldness and courage and ability.