← Leading Saints
Loading summary
Transcript177 lines
- [00:02]
A
Hey, if you think Leading Saints is just a podcast, well that's a big mistake. We are so much more than a podcast. We've established online a Leading Saints Community. That's right. If you go to leadingsaints.org Zion you'll be pushed towards a community online where the discussion is really happening. Sure you're going to listen to this episode. You'll get some great tips and ideas and hear a thought provoking discussion. But the conversation doesn't end there. We go over to the Leading Saints Community and talk further there. You can make comments, you ask questions and we'll probably do some follow up live streams with maybe the same guest. But a lot is going on at the Leading Saints Community so check out the show notes for the link leading saints.org Zion and join the Leading Saints Community. If you wanted further insight into a come follow me lesson, you'd probably search in YouTube or get the We Believe Apple. Tough church history questions. You'd reach out to the B H Roberts Foundation. But what if you wanted to learn to be a better leader? Well, I'm glad you asked. You'd come to Leading Saints. That's why we exist to help Latter Day Saints be better prepared to lead by being familiar with others leadership experiences, understand the latest leadership research and finding a community to share ideas. That's why I'm glad you found the Leading Saints podcast. We hope you will dive into the archives and visit leadingsaints.org to find out what are the top most listened to episodes on the podcast. Welcome. You're going to love it. All right, in this episode I'm bringing a fellow elder from my elders quorum into the studio. I met Cole Zeziger in my elders quorum and we both moved in around the same time and he said oh, I'm a content creator. I said I'm a content creator at a bonding moment there. But he focuses on helping individuals through breakups and he's recently written a book called X's and Nos the breakup advice you don't want to hear. And he knows his stuff when it comes to breakups and getting over divorces because that was part of his story. He was a phenomenal young Latter Day Saint who did the mission thing, was doing the college thing, did the temple marriage thing, but then it didn't work out after a few years experienced a divorce and he really digs into his experience and what he learned where many don't realize that with all these YSA wards, a good chunk of those wards, a good percentage of those wards are of divorced people, individuals who are attending these wards and trying to get remarried again at a really young age. And so what sort of dynamics come up when we're leading individuals who not only are struggling with their personal relationship with significant others, but that sometimes gets projected on their spiritual relationship with God? And how do we, you know, welcome them, help them feel like they have a place and remove the stigma of divorce and. And help them find a life of discipleship? And so we covered all. Just really fantastic resources. Definitely follow Cole online. He's. Every day, he's putting out resources to help individuals that I think many, especially those YSA leaders, can recommend to individuals that they're leading. So here's my interview with Cole Ziger, the author of X's and Nos. All right, Cole Zeziger, you're in my elders quorum. I am. And that's what we're here to talk about. No, just kidding you. It's funny.
- [03:27]
B
This is very.
- [03:28]
A
When we met, you're like, oh, I do things on online social media about relationships. And I'm like, oh, I'm a content creator, too. And you didn't know who I was, but your mom knew who I was.
- [03:37]
B
My mom watches, like, every week. It is cool, though. It's a. It's kind of a lonely job in real life because, like, none of your friends do it. So it's cool to meet people like you.
- [03:45]
A
Yeah. And I'm. It's cool to connect with other content creators because most people are like, that's not a job. What? No way. You know, so.
- [03:53]
B
Yeah.
- [03:54]
A
So this your journey? I mean, you didn't. I mean, I guess every kid wants to be a YouTube star these days,
- [03:59]
B
but I actually did. So. Yeah, that's. I usually don't tell that part of the story, but when I was like, 12, I probably started. When I was 12, I made tons of YouTube videos about, like, I'd review longboard wheels or I do backflips off of, like, rocks in my backyard and just like, try to do that. So nothing related to what I do now, but I did make videos.
- [04:19]
A
So you're. You jump through the typical hoops of a young Latter day Saint, go on a mission.
- [04:24]
B
Yeah.
- [04:24]
A
Come home from a mission and marriage is next and tell story.
- [04:27]
B
So I was very much, like, trying to be the perfect priest, Elders quorum, all that kind of stuff. Like, I. I was the oldest of five siblings. My mom and dad actually had my youngest sibling when I was on my mission. So I grew up with four.
- [04:40]
A
Oh, wow.
- [04:40]
B
But yeah, I. I kind of just always wanted to be the perfect example. That's what I felt like. I kind of had to be. So like, when the Nephi.
- [04:48]
A
Even though, yeah, I wasn't the oldest, but.
- [04:50]
B
Yeah, I know. And I kind of. I don't even really like Nephi as much as the other people in the Book of Mormon now, but I think I was mostly like him. And yeah, I. When I came time to go on a mission, I didn't even. It's kind of funny to me that people actually, like, think about, do I want to go on a mission? Because to me, I didn't even think that that was a possibility. And I kind of just. My mom even did my papers when I got to the Philippines. I. I looked because my mom packed all my stuff. Even, like, I. I didn't know even know what I had until I arrived in this Filipino hotel. Cause I went to the MTC there and. Yeah, it just. I kind of did that. Got home after my mission and immediately got on mutual because that's what people started doing. I got home in late 2017 and that was just catching fire. So I swiped like crazy, went on as many dates as I could with people in my local area, and then ran out of them. And then I ended up like, expanding it and I found a girl in. Who lived in Texas and we got married extremely quickly. I went to BYU Idaho for her two weeks. A little bit long. Not that much longer, though. Like, it was one semester of college. Oh, I marched. I matched with her on the app on March 4th and then went up to BYU Idaho to date her. And it was kind of like.
- [06:03]
A
Because you knew she was going there.
- [06:05]
B
Yeah, okay. Yeah, yeah. She was like at home for the time and like, she was going to go back there and I was going to go to UVU just to do. I think I was. I was in between like medical or entrepreneurship. So I went to LDSBC first to kind of take in between classes and then I went there and we dated for a semester and then got married on August 4th. So five months to the day from when I matched with her on the app. We got married, which I think is.
- [06:31]
A
Met my wife in July 3rd and we got married January. So, yeah, six months. Yeah. But yeah, sometimes it works. But so then was there an indication of like, was it day two of the marriage? Like, oh, no, something's not. Something's off or how.
- [06:47]
B
So this is. I think this goes back to like, the. The path thing that I thought of. I had a really naive view of divorce before I got Divorced. I thought that like, I. I was the one who was supposed to be perfect example all this kind of stuff. So I always thought that if you got divorced, you like, you were doing something majorly wrong or you were a quitter or something like that. So the marriage was hard. Like, we were really well connected in personality wise. Like we got along really well, but we would fight about stuff. We didn't fully decide on where we were going to live, whose family we were going to live near because hers was in Texas, mine was in Utah. So there was a lot of things that we just never really figured out. And by the end we'd fight like big blowout fights like once a week. But I'd always grew up hearing that love was hard. So I just thought that's the way it is. And I never considered divorce a possibility because that wasn't on my playbook of how I was supposed to live my life.
- [07:37]
A
Yeah, yeah. And I think back to our first year of marriage and yeah, it's tricky because, I mean, everybody experience those dynamics to some extent where you're like sort of filling out the situation and, and you're like, why is this is awkward? Like, why isn't this working? Like we're supposed to be happy and you're kind of in the honeymoon phase and then you're not and then you are. You know, it's tricky.
- [07:56]
B
And I got. I got like a really clear answer from God that I should marry her too. So, like, it was that. It was. We got sealed in the temple. We had like experiences where we felt like we'd feel our kids and stuff. So when she came home, it was two and a half years into the marriage. She came home saying that she wanted a divorce. It just didn't compute that that was possible for me. And I. For about three days she would be like off on these really long drives. Like she'd leave in the morning for about like 11 hours and I would just be home. I watched actually the entire show of Malcolm in the Middle and like those three days, just trying to disassociate from reality. And then when she got home, I'd beg and try to fix it. And yeah, after those three days, it was pretty quick. I. I moved back with my parents. We were in Idaho. I moved back with my parents in Utah just because my dad was like, you need to give her some space. Because I was going absolutely crazy. I called her, like on her drives, I would call her 60 times, not exaggerating, trying to get her to talk to me, to figure it out because yeah again like if, if we got divorced, where the heck was I? Like I had this perfect path. I did it with the mission and graduated high school. I graduated seminary as an Eagle Scout. I did all these things and then I was just getting divorced at 23 and I thought I'll just be the biggest loser ever. Nobody's ever going to want to date me or talk to me again.
- [09:15]
A
Yeah. And, and I mean in your current content you get into like attachment styles and things like that. Do you kind of see there? Because I feel like this is a very common. I don't know if it's a Latter Day Saint thing or just immaturity thing where cuz it's almost like on the mission if things aren't going well, we'll get out there, knock on more doors, talk to more people and you can kind of will it into existence a little bit or be more obedient or. Right. And so it's like hey, if I can't talk with you, like I can't just sit here like we gotta fight for this.
- [09:42]
B
Right.
- [09:43]
A
And in reality there's, there's maybe more going on there.
- [09:46]
B
I didn't even think about that a hundred percent though. I had super anxious attachment. So for anyone who doesn't know, that basically means that you believe that love exists. You got it kind of inconsistently growing up. Usually that's how it forms. But if you believe that love exists but for some reason you don't get it all the time, you come to the belief that something's fundamentally wrong with you. So you need to kind of make up for that by being hyper vigilant all the time to look if love is going to get away or by earning it by just working harder and harder. And that's the one I would do like on my mission I, I was consistently at the top of like they're called OEMs, just how many times you open your mouth and talk to people. And my companionships and I would do minimum 100 a day because I was just like I get two years. We are going to baptize as many people as humanly possible. Like that's what we're going to do. So yeah, that's exactly how I felt is I just thought I need to work harder and harder. And it just bugged her. Like it just, it just made her feel more and more trapped and more and more like she had to get away.
- [10:41]
A
And it's a spiral. Right. And this is probably a discussion and we've done attachment styles before but yeah. In my own experience, like, we. We. Nice Guy it Right? Where we're like, I'm gonna be like the perfect husband. I'm gonna do the dishes. And then what we do, any problems or discontent we have, we just bury further and further, like a beach ball in a swimming pool. Like, I'll just keep this down here. But then the pressure is building.
- [11:02]
B
Yeah.
- [11:02]
A
And then it blows up. And, you know, what about me? And then it, you know, feeds into that discontent. Right.
- [11:08]
B
Yeah. That's when. When I was gonna. Like, when I was saying anything I could to get her to stay, I said, I don't even have to go to medical school. Because that was my plan at the time. I don't have to go to medical school. I'll live in Texas. I'll work at McDonald's if I have to. I care about nothing that I want. I just don't want you to leave. And luckily, she said no still, because I think that would have created much bigger problems. If she would have let me do all of those sacrifices, sacrificing absolutely everything I wanted in life. I think it would have created a lot of discontent and probably worse fights, and it would have gotten worse. So I'm. I'm glad she stuck to her guns, even though it killed me at the time.
- [11:40]
A
Yeah. And so a separation happens, leads to divorce type thing.
- [11:44]
B
Way quicker than that. Like, it was after those three days, I went home and I got into therapy. I didn't change my clothes or get a shower for, like, a week. I was just this, like, ball of sadness. And. Wow. I actually. I saw her one more time. She boxed up all my stuff. Her mom moved into our town home, and I went and got the stuff with my dad. And that's what the first, like, introduction of the book is, this story. But I pretty much. I got there and she was, like, done up all pretty, and her mom was there, and. And then I. I walked in to get all my stuff, and she just looked at me, and she was like, if you weren't such a jerk, then I would have had a happy life. And it was horrible. And then I walked out and waved, and she kind of just, like, looked at me. And that was it. The last time I ever saw her.
- [12:26]
A
And no kids. So that.
- [12:27]
B
No kids. Which. That's an interesting thing because everybody says that to you if you're young and get divorced. Everyone's like, at least you didn't have kids. Oh, sorry, that sucks. But, like, at least you have kids. And it's. It's. It's the worst thing to hear. It's so annoying.
- [12:39]
A
Interesting. That's the feedback.
- [12:40]
B
Yeah. Because you're just like, I chose this, like, this is the person that I wanted. We had a legitimate temple marriage, just like you have. And now you like belittle it because we didn't have kids. So it's fine. It can just feel like a little mistake. Yeah, I hated that.
- [12:53]
A
So in hindsight, especially with the knowledge you have and the experience you have, like, I mean, is it one of those things? Like, because I think about, I'm in a 20 year marriage.
- [13:02]
B
Yeah.
- [13:02]
A
We have such a beautiful relationship. I mean, sure, there's trickiness and arguments and things there, but I just sometimes in hindsight, like, I'm like, man, like I can name five girls who I like was just Twitter painted by.
- [13:14]
B
Yeah.
- [13:15]
A
And that I would have done anything for, but that'd be like, that would have been terrible. Right? And yeah, but like, it's not like I did something right and you did something wrong. It's just the way it happens. So like with hindsight, you are just. Sometimes two people just doesn't happen or you're too immature or. I mean, what do you look back, think, could it have have worked?
- [13:34]
B
I don't think so. Maybe. No, I think our values around like where we wanted to live, I don't think that could have been fixed. Like we both really wanted to live by our families and our families were like 24 hours apart by car. Like that was extremely important to both of us and we just kind of ignored it and got married. And like other things around career and stuff were very different. So no, I don't think that could have worked the same way.
- [14:01]
A
But you don't also don't look at it like you completely missed some red flags and should have avoided altogether.
- [14:07]
B
Like, I don't think I know what to look for. Like, I kind of just was like, oh, somebody likes me. Because I was in high school, I was more like shy and I thought that no girls liked me. But like when I think back now, that's kind of stupid because there were times where I was like with a girl at like 2am watching a movie, alone at her house, and we're just cuddling and I'm like, I don't know, she likes me. I gotta just go home now. So I, I had someone who liked me and I was like, let's just get married. That's what you do. And she wants to be married in the temple. We're both active in the church. Let's just do it.
- [14:33]
A
Yeah. Again, then some of that. Attachment issues, and we don't even realize it's happening. That's a tough thing. Where, as I hear people sort of. Like you mentioned the. It's easy to say. Well, we. We don't say the D word. The divorce word. Right. We don't believe it. But it's like, man, like, I hope it works out for you because mortality is just more complicated than that.
- [14:52]
B
Yeah.
- [14:52]
A
First, again, it's not like Kurt did it right and Cole didn't do it right. No, it's just I could have easily been in your situation for what, a number of reasons.
- [15:00]
B
So that bugged me about my view of how God worked forever. You shared this in Elders Corps and it, like, blew my mind where you talked about. I don't know if you talked about, but like, yeah, it'll make you seem really cool. But like, you put three different piles of chairs in the gym when we walked in. And the first one was, I get
- [15:16]
A
weird in Elders Corp.
- [15:17]
B
But yeah, it's going to be hard at the 25 minute thing. I hope you can still do things. I know, but. But like, all the chairs, the first one, all the chairs were lined up perfectly. There was like six of them and two rows of three, and they were perfect. The middle one, all of them were, like, collapsed on the ground. And then the third pile, they were all put together in this interesting matrix where they were unfolded but, like, stacked all crazy. And he said that the first one was a really naive version of faith where everything's perfect, God is love. Everything, like, happens according to his will. Everything's great. Second one is when that gets shattered and they're all just all over the ground and a lot of people will, like, leave the church and experience big faith crises there. And then the other one was, you realize that life has nuance and that there's eternal laws, and that God also sometimes allows us to go through trials so we can learn. And it actually is a lot stronger. So with me, I was so confused at why God would answer me so clearly that I should marry her if he knew both of us. And it was only two years in the future. I was like, who the heck are you? Like, why? Why do you not know this? Why do you lead me through this? And it bugged me forever. And it was actually like, it came together a lot. I spoke in church like, two weeks ago, and it came together a lot. I had this misunderstanding. I heard some scripture one time that said that I think it's in Moroni, but it Says that evil comes from the devil and things that lead to good come from God. And I overdid that to think that nothing bad comes from God and good things come from God. But I don't believe that at all anymore. I think that I, 100% God, knew that we were going to get divorced and that I had to learn skills. And one way, I think it's to prepare me to do what I do now. Like, I've helped a lot of people through this, help them learn from my mistakes, and I wouldn't have had any of that if I didn't go through that. So, yeah, I think as a church, we think that divorce is just this failure or a sin or to be hidden. But I think it can be the plan for a lot of people.
- [17:04]
A
Yeah. Yeah. That's a really complex way to see it, which. That's mortality for you. Right.
- [17:09]
B
It's just.
- [17:09]
A
It's tricky. So continue on with your story and then we'll kind of jump in to some principles.
- [17:14]
B
Yeah, so. So after that, I went and got my stuff. I actually jumped on mutual again, like, immediately. This is another part of the perfection thing is I was like, I just need to get married again ASAP so that, like, people can just forget this ever happened. Yeah, I can go to medical school, have another wife, get another dog. We'll just keep going on the plan. So I found a girl. I matched with her, like on day three. And I kind of just built my life of what it would be with her in my head. My parents all thought I was delusional because I had this one girl in mind that she was going to be my wife. And then I went on a date with her like three weeks later after the divorce was more final and she actually became my girlfriend. Like, I won, I succeeded, which blew my parents mind. And they all thought it was kind of cool. But we dated for 10 months and I didn't do anything to fix. I didn't learn any skills. I didn't do anything to fix anything about me, the anxious attachment, or any of that. So we broke up, like 10 months. She left me too. And then I was just completely crushed because then I was like, okay, all my fears were correct. I actually am unlovable. I actually can't do this relationship thing. And now I've got a. During that whole relationship, I still lived with my parents. I kind of left my life in limbo mode. I was like, let's just pause everything and get married again and then continue. But I was like, okay, I've actually Got to move out. I've actually got to get roommates. I viewed it as like a downgrade. I've actually got to like go back to level one of life and, and that was really hard. But that's when I started actually being like, okay, I've got to learn how relationships work now. I've got to learn what I'm doing different. And I started making TikToks like two months after she broke up with me. And yeah, I just, there's this guy online named Gary V that makes like how to get big on social media. And he was like, make three videos a day. And I was like, okay. So I just started doing that in like a month. I had like 6,000 followers and by six months I had a hundred thousand. And I started just putting a, a link in my bio. If you're going through breakup or divorce, you need help, do that, Pay me this amount and we'll talk for an hour. And that became my business for a year and then it became more long term stuff. Now it's me and several other coaches and I've got the book. But the coolest thing was about probably seven months into it, Jocelyn, my wife now, she went through a divorce a little bit before and she was watching all the videos and she DM'd me. She was like, it was awesome. But she was like, I just got divorced. Similar story to you. I need like a singles word. I want to make friends. And I was like, she is beautiful and I like helping people make friends, so let's do that. And it was cool because I was in Iceland at the time because I was just saying yes to everything during this period and doing crazy stuff and spending lots of money on my credit card.
- [19:49]
A
And she not necessarily recommended, but I
- [19:52]
B
don't know, it worked good. But she was watching like Secret Life of Walter Mitte and there's.
- [19:57]
A
I love that movie.
- [19:58]
B
It's like my top 10, two favorite movies.
- [20:00]
A
So good.
- [20:00]
B
But, but he was, she was like, you should like longboard down the volcano. He longboards down. And, and I was like in the moment. She texted. I was actually doing that with my friends so I got to seem really cool. And I, I sent her like a selfie of doing that and then yeah, we ended up hanging out every single day and getting married. Now we have a daughter.
- [20:16]
A
Yeah, it's awesome. And yeah, you're just contributing to award and making it a better ward and living the dream.
- [20:23]
B
Right?
- [20:24]
A
That's cool. So like let's transport into a room full of YSA bishoprics. And, you know, because this is like, this is a thing, right? It's one thing to talk about divorce of, like, yeah, we were married 20 years, just drifted apart. Now, you know, we're this middle age trying to figure out. But, you know, if we use this as a microcosm of like, no, this is like, they were married a year or two and they're not. And they did all the things. Return missionary, take, temple worthy. Like, it just didn't work out. And then it's almost like this parallel journey of those who come home from a mission early. It's like the stigma.
- [20:57]
B
It's really similar to that, actually. That's a really good analogy.
- [21:00]
A
Yeah.
- [21:01]
B
Yeah.
- [21:01]
A
So, like, what do we need to know or understand about that demographic experiencing divorce?
- [21:07]
B
I didn't know that other people did it. I think it's because it's so hidden in the same way. The mission thing is I thought that I was the only one. Like, I was this weird alien. So I moved from Centerville, where I grew up, and I lived with my parents. After the divorce and that other relationship, I moved down to Vineyard, and I only kind of knew one person from, like, a UFC party that we hosted in Idaho from, like, three years ago. So he became my roommate, and I just was like, I've got to build a life now. And when I went to church, I was really afraid to tell people because I just didn't. I didn't know if anyone else did. And then one time I was talking to the bishop, like, getting to know him right when I moved in. So I told him. I was like, I don't want to tell anybody this, but this is where I come from, and I'm worried about dating and all these types of things. But he told me that 25% of the ward, based on what he'd talked to, was also divorced.
- [21:56]
A
Wow.
- [21:56]
B
In. In Vineyard, which was about. I think our demographic was like 20 to 28 in our ward, Vineyard, Utah
- [22:02]
A
county, like, Provo area.
- [22:04]
B
I mean, like, all the people who graduated from UVU or BYU and just moved like 10 minutes north and. And just. Yeah, yeah. So that helped me a lot. And then I started testing, bringing it up and dating, and absolutely no one cared. They care a lot. I think it's more if you're actually over it, they care. If they. If you're not over it, they. They do care because they can feel that you're emotionally charged, and people are pretty intuitive that way. But if you're actually over it and you've done work to feel better and Build your life after. I don't think anybody cares. So that's the first thing I'd say is some sort of way to make it okay to talk about it. Because if you get people sharing about it in like Sunday school or elders quorum or something like that, 25% of the people in Utah county will relate to it. And they're people that feel invisible and feel like they're not good enough.
- [22:50]
A
Yeah. And that's the shame of most things, right. That you feel alone. And the best. The first step would be to show them you're not alone. Like there's so many that have experienced this or willing to sit with you in it and. And are fine with it.
- [23:02]
B
Yeah. So again, one time I was on a. If you live in Vineyard, you go on these walks by the trail with all the single people and. And by the pickleball courts. And we were walking one time and there was five of us in this little group and it somehow came up. I think. I think they actually were talking about my TikTok. So it's like kind of a weird thing to do. So it's like a topic of conversation. And like, of the five of us walking, four were divorced. And it just like nobody knew before. We all shared and we were like, holy crap. Like, that's crazy. So that's the first thing is that second thing I would. I would say is like, if we could somehow teach that a path that goes in a non traditional way is just as beautiful, that'd be cool even. Same thing with the mission thing. Like there's. There's people that come home early from their missions and then use that as a testimony builder and help others through that. I think that definitely there seems to be this designed way that is like the standard that we should all be at. And if you're not that standard, it's not as good. When really I think it's just a different instrument in the symphony that makes it sound more beautiful and helps other people along. And if all you had was the standard, then it would be less dynamic than it is if you have everyone.
- [24:09]
A
Yeah. And that's the paradox of it. Right. Because I appreciate you saying that. No, God actually confirmed that I should marry your first wife.
- [24:16]
B
It's the strongest answer to any prayer still that I can remember. It was like audible.
- [24:21]
A
And to know that God also knew this was not going to work out, but he was inviting you into this journey. And again, it's not that we should platform divorce or recommend it or. But then the day it is part Of, Yeah. Mortal journey for a lot of people. Yeah.
- [24:35]
B
Yeah. I still, like, I'm. I have a really weird view of it because I still believe that if you promise to get married to someone, then it's like it's your job and responsibility to remain in love with them. I like CS Lewis talks about that when we are under the feeling of love, then we make promises, but then love ceases to be a feeling. It switches from dopamine based to oxytocin based. It's more, like, not as exciting, but more steady. And a lot of people just view that as, okay, the feeling faded. So therefore I'm not in love anymore. Therefore I've got to go find someone else to make me happy. But he says that if you stick to your promises only when you feel things, it's the same thing as promising to never feel a headache or feel hungry again. Like, you'll never have a stable foundation for any decision. So I'm kind of weird on it. Like, I like that I got divorced, but I'm against divorce.
- [25:25]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so what would you say to maybe that young couple who's been at a year too? And it's easy to just kind of think, well, maybe I made a mistake, or I'm not attracted to her or him as much as I was. Like, what advice would you give to those who. Who want to, like, grasp onto your story and be like, yep, that's mine too. We should just go this direction.
- [25:44]
B
Yeah. I do think if there are, like, major value on alignments. Like, I think religion's one. I think that what you want to do with your life is one. Like, if one person wants to be a van lifer and the other person wants to live in New York City. Like, if there's. I want to have kids and you don't want to have kids. If there's major value misalignments, I think that love is not enough and relationships break down. However, if you're all, like, value aligned and you want the same things and it's just the feeling is fading, then it's your job to create the feeling through action. So one rule that I try to follow now, which, again, I'm. One of the interesting things about my job is I talk to people going through breakups every day. So I get to see, like, all these relationships dying. So it's like a mirror for me. And I'm like, okay, I did that yesterday. I got to not do that. So I'm trying to constantly learn too. That's but one of the Rules that I made up was if I have, like, some idea pop into my head, and this is kind of an idea from leadership and self deception. It's a good book. But if I have an idea that pops into my head of a way that I can serve Jocelyn, then I have to do it. Not because she will think I'm cool or, like, love me more, but because I'm voting. I'm proving to myself that I actually love her. And if I do enough times that I don't do that thing, then that's like casting a vote that I don't love her. So I need to always make sure that there's more votes that I do so that I remain in love with her. And that's my job to make sure that happens.
- [27:10]
A
Yeah, you know, I. There's a divorce attorney that's going around.
- [27:14]
B
I like him.
- [27:15]
A
What's his name?
- [27:16]
B
James Sexton.
- [27:17]
A
There it is. And he talks. I've listened to several interviews, and he says one of the earliest indicators of divorce is, like, when the wife stops picking up the husband's favorite granola at the store. Just these little things, right? Of, like, not a big deal. It's not like this big I love you moment, but on their mind of, like, in the simplest way, I can serve them by getting his favorite granola. Right? And so, like, one habit I have is every morning, I'm more of a morning person. And so I wake up for my wife, and one of the first things I do is make her some tea. And I make her tea, and I get it really hot and go set up by her bed so that by the time she wakes up, it's not so hot. And. And this is my indicator. And there's. Sometimes I'm like, oh, man, it's been a week. I haven't done that. All right, I got to get back on it. Because again, it's not like. Doesn't change her day in anything significant, but it's sort of this indicator of like, I love you, I love you, I love you.
- [28:10]
B
Right.
- [28:10]
A
It's just these service moments, right? And I don't expect anything in return or feel like, now you gotta love me.
- [28:16]
B
Right.
- [28:16]
A
But those simple moments can go a long way, right?
- [28:18]
B
Yeah. That's what's made it powerful for me, is if it's just like, I'm gonna do this thing so that they feel loved by me, we look for some sort of reciprocation or proof that it's actually working. Cause we wanna know that our goals are leading to progress or actions are leading to progress. But if you view it as this is my maintenance to make sure that my love for her remains strong, then you do see the progress. And there's. There's no other thing that you need from her because you're doing it for that reason.
- [28:43]
A
Yeah. And who is it? The. I've interviewed him. The no more Mr. Nice Guy. He calls.
- [28:47]
B
Oh, you have? That's cool. Oh, yeah, I forgot his name, but I've read anyways.
- [28:51]
A
Great book. No more Mystery Guy. There's some things in there you can swim past. Don't. But just this concept. He calls them covert contracts.
- [28:59]
B
Yeah, Yeah.
- [28:59]
A
I clean the house and do the dishes, then we're going to have sex. Yeah, right.
- [29:05]
B
Like, yeah.
- [29:05]
A
And then you don't have sex. And then it's like, hey, wait a
- [29:07]
B
minute, why am I doing this?
- [29:09]
A
Share this contract. Nor is it a good, like, give and take thing. Right. And so, yeah, I love that concept. And we do it in all sorts of relationships where I am showing up a certain way. So I expect you to show up in a certain way when that's just poison.
- [29:21]
B
And it's hard, though, because it's almost true.
- [29:23]
A
Right.
- [29:24]
B
And that's, like. Because you feel really justified in it, especially since a lot of social media is an echo chamber about, like, red flags. And this is how you know if you're actually being abused and all this kind of stuff, which is useful, but I think that they go really far towards just normal behavior is viewed as demonized now. But if you're constantly looking for that stuff and you're constantly, like, looking for it should be even and, like, I should be respected. That's true. Like, you should. But if that becomes the primary measure and you're always just like. Like, I have an analogy for it right now. So I. I'm recently coming out of an addiction on YouTube of looking into, like, proof of the Book of Mormon being true or not. I got.
- [30:04]
A
This is a fun one.
- [30:05]
B
Yeah. Deep wormhole. I watched and, like. And also, like, debates between, like, different Christians and people in our church about if God exists. Like, all of the apologist stuff. I got, like, super, super into that. And I was loving it, but I felt like, not as spiritually fed. And I didn't know why, because I was like, well, I'm. I'm researching all day, every day. I'm doing way more than everybody else, like, what's going on? But I was not reading my Book of Mormon at all. And I was just, like, learning all about different Greek ways to say Christ and All this kind of stuff. And then I, I thought about it and I was like, I'm sticking in the shallow end of the gospel. I'm like looking at all these things of is the Book of Mormon true or not? But if I'm there, I never actually get to experience what the Book of Mormon actually is and what it has to offer me because I'm constantly back and forth here. And it actually kind of made it interesting reading it too because then I was like always looking for, oh, is it true? Like, what about what would this mean? And I'd, I'd be in this questioning mode. And because I was always in the shallow, I didn't get to experience the depth. So I think that if in the relationship you're constantly looking for, like, do they love me or is it right? Or all this kind of stuff, that's the shallow end stuff. And until you actually decide that you're in it, you don't get to actually experience any of the depth. So it's like a self fulfilling prophecy. It doesn't feel deep because you're not looking for anything deep.
- [31:21]
A
Yeah. So let's go back to. You talk about all these. You have tons of interactions with people who are going through hurt and breakup and divorce or whatever and kind of projecting that on or being reflective on the YSA experience with divorce. Anything else come to mind with that?
- [31:38]
B
So the biggest, I have a lot of clients that are members of the church. Especially as I've done like local podcasts, there's been people that reach out and they're like my age or a little bit younger, like 21 to 30. Big thing is feeling abandoned by God, especially people that go to the temple a lot. Like I've had clients that they go to the temple every single week. They are always trying to do all the right things, but then boom, God still abandons them. They have a kid and now they're divorced and now dating is hard. So yeah, big, big thing I think again for the bishops is to teach deeper versions of who God is. That was what my talk on Sunday was, was and Jesus. I think it's John 17:3 or one of the verses. I think it is that actually. But, but he says that behold, this is eternal life to know God, the eternal Father and his Son, Jesus Christ. So I think focusing on who God actually is and like talking about that and having discussions on that, because I had this kind of all growing up, this ping pong view of God where he was perfect and he loved me, therefore I needed to be perfect. So it was pretty much just like, I'd pray all the time, and I'd feel not worthy after, like, two weeks. And then I'd go and do that thing where you open the scriptures and look for a scripture that says, your sins have been forgiven. And then. Then I'd like, okay, good. And then I'd feel good for, like, two weeks. And then I'd do it again and again and again and again. And it built this thing of like, okay, God is always going to answer me. He's always going to lead me by the hand. And then. Then I got divorced, and it just seemed like he was gone. And I was like, okay, well, none of this is real then, I guess, or I don't know. But I always kept going to church and doing all this stuff. But I felt very far away from God. And that's one thing that I've seen. And I. I do think it comes from a misunderstanding of who God is.
- [33:22]
A
Yeah, great data point as far as you literally are abandoned by the relationship. And.
- [33:27]
B
Yeah.
- [33:27]
A
Then you project that on your relationship with God or you feel that way for whatever reason, so it can spin off somebody into more of a faith struggle than not just a relationship struggle.
- [33:38]
B
Have you talked about attachment styles with God? Has anyone brought that up?
- [33:41]
A
I don't think so.
- [33:41]
B
So that's. I learned this in therapy when. When I was going through the divorce, that our attachment figures are our parents, and we kind of like, okay, if parents teach me that I deserve this much love and this much love exists in the world because of how they treated me, how they raised me, then, like, that's how I view romantic relationships. But that's also how you view God. So if you are really anxiously attached. I was with God, I would always ask, like, it's basically like, am I still worthy? Is the same thing as, do you still love me? So I would always be checking, checking, checking, checking, checking. And then it's just, boom, abandoned and not there. So therefore, he must not and I must not be cared about like that.
- [34:18]
A
Yeah, yeah. It's really these attachment styles and things, and there's different modalities and ways to understand relationship. But you do find, like, we often project our earthly parents onto the face of God, and we think, oh, well, they were disappointed when I got home late, you know, in high school. And so I bet God is super disappointed, or they were disappointed in the divorce. And so I bet he's super disappointed in the divorce. Right. And it's tricky, and it can be. It can corrode faith quickly. Right.
- [34:46]
B
Yeah.
- [34:46]
A
Yeah.
- [34:47]
B
So, yeah, I think those. That. And probably just like actually following up with people and ask. Actually asking them who they are because you kind of want to disappear and not be noticed, but you do need to be noticed. It helps a ton if you feel like people actually care about you and your journey. There was a. So when I got divorced, I was an adjunct professor for anatomy at byu, Idaho and there was a teacher, two of them, Professor Hunt and Professor Anderson, both checked up on me because I. I like took a. A week off my teaching duties because it was during COVID so I was teaching it in zoom. So I kept doing it when I was in Utah. But I had like all these classes of nursing students and I was a ball of sadness, so I couldn't teach them about the breathing system and muscles and stuff.
- [35:31]
A
So.
- [35:32]
B
So they would check on me and they would ask if I was okay. And that meant a ton to me.
- [35:36]
A
Yeah. And are there more? It's just the checking. I'm just thinking about this YSA word where, you know, 25% roughly were divorced. Like, is there more of a formal approach or best practices tactics as far as, like, do you have a divorce group? You like, do you get them together so they can be of strength or. I don't know.
- [35:56]
B
That's kind of cool. I do that in my company now. Like I. All my clients, I have an online community called the Healing Project and we meet three times a week. And people love it. Like, it's. It helps to just when they're going crazy and like 60 times a day, checking social media after a breakup or divorce is average. That's not a crazy thing, but it feels like a crazy thing. You feel like a crazy person, but it's what people do.
- [36:17]
A
So when you say checking social media, like just get on the. Doing the scrolling.
- [36:21]
B
Looking at their ex or looking. Yeah, their ex. Yeah, like what they're doing. A lot of times people will like this. If you're doing this is going to help you feel normal. But a lot of people will be like forced, unfollowed. And the person has a private account and they'll just look at the numbers of how many they're following. And if it goes from like 700 to 701, they'll come up with a story in their mind that, oh my gosh, they met a girl at a party for sure, he's in love, now he's gonna get married. And then he. It goes down to like 699. They're like, oh, good, okay. They're Gone. They'll build all these hypothetical scenarios. So, yeah, being with other people in a group like that and being able to relate and be like, okay, this isn't crazy. It kind of lessens the shame of it, and shame drives it. So when you feel more normal, you don't. You're not as, like, driven to do those types of hypervigilant behavior. So I actually do like that idea. What I think, like, that probably be, like, extreme. I think that'd be really, really cool, but kind of harder to do. The easiest thing to do would just be, like, to be sure there's someone inviting them to activities and to do things, because you. You do feel like you just want to be alone because you just feel weird. And when you're alone, that's when you get lonely and do all that kind of stalking stuff, which just makes the dopamine pattern of looking for your ex stronger because it's like getting a little hit of that drug. So if you're invited to do stuff and get out of your comfort zone and actually create new memories, it makes the past have less pull because you're creating more of a present to actually exist in.
- [37:43]
A
Yeah. And in the context of breakups, because I am curious of some best practices there where I'm sure, like, I'm thinking of Ysa Bishop, who's seen this couple. They've been bidden dating six, seven, eight months, and they're just this cute couple, perfect for one another, and you just can't wait to get the wedding invitation. And it's going to be, you know, the pictures outside the temple and.
- [38:03]
B
Yeah.
- [38:03]
A
And. But then they break up. Right. And naturally, as a Bishop, you're like, wow, maybe you should. I should give it another go. Right. And. Or, like, you almost want to force it back together. But is there some perspective you could offer where, like, what. What should he say to them individually if they're, like, looking for spiritual guidance or, you know, how do you help someone get past somebody else?
- [38:25]
B
So that is a weird one, because if they have to see, the equation that I help people, like, follow to get past someone else is, number one, completely detox from the person. Because it is, like, it's actually crazy how accurate the comparison is from hard drugs to heartbreak. This. They've done brain scans and they've found that, like, people quitting cocaine and people quitting a relationship is, like, almost indistinguishable, which is why breakups are extraordinarily hard. And people just don't really remember that for some reason, even though Everyone goes through them. But even a breakup, sometimes just for like three months, people will. Their entire life will end. And then they feel like, okay, everyone thinks I'm weird now. I'm so weak because my whole world is ending. And it was only three months. But yeah, so that's. The first part is detoxing from the person, which I'll relate all this to the YSA example in a second. But second would be really creating a narrative about what happened. So that's where, like, things like attachment styles help. That's where talking through the story with people that you know love you and that you love helps a lot. But once you have, like, okay, I kind of get what happened and I have my side of the story, and then next is building some sort of present that is worth existing in, where a lot of people, like, I did, like, I just had this limbo version where I live with my parents and don't know what I'm going to do. And in the past, I was like, I had a wife, a dog, I was going to medical school. I had all this stuff. Of course my brain is going to want to ruminate on the past because it's more interesting. There's more things to do there. So things like activities help them build more of a present that they can actually be in, getting them friends. If you have friends all of a sudden now, you can have trips that you're going on in the future or their birthday parties that you're looking forward to, so you actually have a place to be interesting. And then next last is showing yourself that love can actually exist again. Like, that you can actually be physically capable, being interested in other girls or other guys. So I think being at co ed activities, even if you can just like notice that you found a girl attractive, that's a big step. You can be like, okay, I guess. I guess I'm not broken. I guess I do like people still. So that's like the framework. But if you're in a YSA thing, I don't think I would try to like, put ideas and recommendations in as much. I think more I would listen and be there that they can really feel heard. Because. Because you do feel crazy and you feel like nobody understands you. You feel a lot like people downplay. And it's not actually as intense as it is. So that, that would be a big thing is I would actually listen and validate that their pain is actually real, regardless of the length of the relationship.
- [40:53]
A
Yeah.
- [40:53]
B
And do not fight, like, to try to convince them that the person is not good for them either. Because when you start saying that's the whole like you didn't, at least you didn't have kids thing. Cuz once if you say that then they dig their heels in deeper and try to convince you or defend their choice and their ex partner.
- [41:10]
A
Yeah.
- [41:10]
B
That they're like, okay, like obviously you don't see the gravity of this, so I need to get more entrenched in it and more into them so that you can understand that. So more validating that kind of stuff. And then like have activities that they can go to and if, if they end up like finding their way back to each other, then cool. And you could counsel them that to really the counsel I'd give for that is have them actually look at what broke the relationship and make a plan to actually fix that or change things within the dynamic or themselves so it can be different. And then also make sure that they actually talk about that before getting back together that they can say, okay, this is what broke it. This is what we'll do different this time because people can do that, but if they break up again, it's usually because they skip that step. That's about what I do. I don't think I'd try to play matchmaker and, and be in the middle of everything.
- [41:58]
A
Right, right. Yeah. And again, this just shows the value of what you do and whether it's coaching or therapy or other like helping, you know, having somebody who understands these dynamics, kind of walk them through these steps. And rather than, and as a church leader, you can be the, you can just drive the hope train like Jesus lives. It's going to get better. Here we go.
- [42:18]
B
Right. This is like invaluable. I think that's the better role than trying to make it happen.
- [42:22]
A
Yeah. You know, one place my mind went with, you know, the detoxing of the person, which makes sense. Right. And especially in a social media world be really important because you can really be in the lives of people. Yeah. You know, I've talked with several of my friends who've been YSA bishops and I've heard this often where there's a stigma of dating others within your YSA ward. Right. Like really?
- [42:45]
B
Yeah, like that what you're supposed to do is what they're for.
- [42:48]
A
Okay, this is interesting.
- [42:49]
B
What does that even mean?
- [42:50]
A
So there's a variety of reasons.
- [42:52]
B
Maybe is it like dating someone at work? Like they're afraid if it doesn't work, then they got to see.
- [42:56]
A
I think, I think that plays into it big. But yeah, there is this Thing of like, oh, no, no, no. Like, I don't date in the ward. I go elsewhere to find, like, dating partners, but not in the ward. And it could be some of that. Of, well, what if it doesn't work out? Or there's just the natural. I don't know, like, oh, now that. Now we sort of have an announce to this group that we're. We're an item rather than, yeah, I brought this cute girl to church and yeah, we're dating, you know, so, yes, I did that.
- [43:21]
B
I. I tried to date people in the Word, but Jocelyn wasn't like an external person.
- [43:24]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So. And that's the thing of, like, it's really hard to, you know, detox yourself from a person when they. You'll see him every Sunday. And not only that, you'll, oh, now she's dating that guy and you're, like, dying inside. Yeah, from that.
- [43:39]
B
But. So I don't like the idea of. I don't think. I think that's too far because it's a really good mechanism. I talk to people who, like, of course, vast majority of the people I talk to are not members of the church. They're all over the world. Like, they're all different ages. And it's very hard in the world to find people to date because you basically have, like, clubs or dating apps. That's how people meet people. So if you have the opportunity to go to a YSA ward, that is major advantage. Like, there's nothing like that in the world for everybody else. So I don't like the idea of just not using it. I think it's awesome. But. So no contact is kind of the Internet term for this detox thing. But, like, sometimes people have to do it with co parenting. Like, if you're getting divorced and you have kids, that's the most extreme way. Or if you work with them or go to school with them, the biggest thing to get the most benefits out of it, if you have to see them, is just to create as much contrast as you can so you don't have to be cold to them. You can wave, you can say, hi. I wouldn't, like, start random conversations if you don't have to. And of course, all the stuff you can 100% control, like having pictures on your phone or having their social media accessible or having things they've given you, like little gifts or things. If you can put all that away, that makes the biggest difference. But if you're just having to see them out of the corner of your eye once A week, you're going to get most of the benefits. It's usually people are lying to themselves and they're thinking that they're doing that, but really they're checking like three times a day still. And yeah, you've got to follow the. You've got to actually like, think of it like an equation. Like if you're like, I can't stop thinking of them but you're doing all that stuff, that is why you can't stop thinking about them. It's nothing magical.
- [45:16]
A
Yeah, it's interesting. I didn't live in this, you know, I've been married 20 years and, and nor do I have children old enough who are in the dating game. But with the apps thing, like, like in your experience, it was so easy to get back on the apps on mutual and just start swiping. Right. You're back in the game type of thing. Where in my day and age it sort of be like, okay, I think I'm going to go to a social
- [45:37]
B
situation that is like, I never thought of that. Yeah, yeah, that's a big difference. I mean, do you.
- [45:42]
A
Are you the fan of the apps or you don't care?
- [45:44]
B
I mean, after breakups or at all?
- [45:47]
A
Well, like at all, but also after breakups.
- [45:50]
B
Let's hear. I'll do it. So after breakups, I think it's a terrible idea because I did it. So I'm more like strongly biased against this one. I do not like at all the idea of going on dates to get over someone.
- [46:02]
A
I think rebound.
- [46:03]
B
Right. It's hard because they work short term for what you need. So you convince yourself that it's actually helping you, but it's not because it does get rid of loneliness. It gets rid of the feeling that you need to better yourself and you're pretty much just like skipping that. Which is like the biggest blessing of a breakup is you feel terrible enough to actually change everything and progress through your life. But if you just jump into something else. One, there's a lot of studies that we fall in love with people that we're in the same emotional state as. They did this study where I think I put. Yeah, I did. I put this one in my book that they got two different groups of people and put them on two different bridges. One was like made of rocks and really stable and one was swinging and made of ropes. And then they had them like rate each other attractiveness wise and ask for numbers. The people on the swinging bridge got like 70% more attractiveness scores because they were in the same Emotional state. So if you're feeling really heartbroken and you go out into the dating world, you will feel extremely connected with people who are also not ready to be there.
- [47:04]
A
And heartbroken.
- [47:05]
B
Yes. Like, you'll feel like, oh, my gosh, this person really, really gets me. And they do. But, like, that doesn't mean that you're not choosing for things that actually lead to lasting relationships. You're not choosing for values or actual compatibility. You're just choosing for emotional state, which feels like the deepest connection you've ever had in your life, because they really get you and no one else does. So there's a lot of scary things that happen there. So I don't like at all getting on dating apps right after. I think that the thing that I give. I don't like giving a specific time. But if you're happy enough with your singlehood that it's actually something that you value, that, like, with me, I. I was going on these trips, I had this new group of friends. I wouldn't just throw it away for the first person that liked me anymore, because it was something that I actually was proud of. If you're at that place, then I think go on dates. If you're not, then don't yet. Focus on building that. If you hate being single, then that's. That's a sign that you need to build your individual life. Like, you actually can get to the point where you enjoy that. And then I think that's when you can share it because you've got something to share, not just an empty hole that you want to fill with someone else.
- [48:06]
A
Fascinating. And because that is the. I can say, I have a parent or church leader. Be like, you know, get back out there like a lot of girls.
- [48:13]
B
Horrible. And that's the worst. It doesn't work, but it's. It's an easy thing to say to get them to leave and not have to talk about hard things, which is why I think people say it.
- [48:21]
A
So do you have any general advice, then? How do they build that? I mean, is it just a bunch of therapy? Do you. I mean, how do they. How can they start to be okay with their singleness?
- [48:30]
B
You can't. Like, I. I like therapy. I like coaching. That's why I do it. And that helps, like, if there's deep patterns that you keep repeating. But I like to have people. This is in the book, too. I've got, like, place where you can write stuff and do this activity in it. But I like looking at all the areas of your life you can Control and then rating them out of 10 and then picking a couple activities to raise the numbers. So it is family relationships, friend relationships, religion, more spirituality if you're not religious, hobbies, work, and health. And then go through. And I like, have my clients rate them out of 10 from when they were with the person and then today, like right now, based on if they're satisfied or not with the act with the area. So, like, if they were to die right now and they were a 10 with their family, that means they showed up exactly how they wanted to and they. They lived with integrity there. Mazero would be like, I really don't like who I am around my family. I don't like the relationship we have. I think it's not a good place. And then pick two to three things that you can actually do. So, like, I'm gonna talk to my mom today, or I'm gonna try pickleball, or I'm gonna read the scriptures for an hour. That's a long time. But like, something like that, that it's actual, like, you create a grab bag of 12 to 18 things and then just make it a goal to do one of those things every single day. And it can be like a big one or a small one, but you just try to do a thing. And then I re rate it every week so that you can compound different activities that if you're like one month in, you've done 30 things to make. That's one thing. The next thing is just to say yes to stuff. So I moved to a place I knew one person in, and then I would go to every party that it was possible to go to. I went on 11 vacations and the crazy.
- [50:12]
A
Including Iceland.
- [50:13]
B
Yeah, the Iceland one was crazy because it was right. When I started dating, there was a girl I was on a second date with from Hinge, and she was going to Iceland in two weeks. And I had just gotten back from a. Like a repelling trip with these other guys that I met, and they were going to go with her to Iceland. So I was like, oh, I kind of know people. And so I just went. I had no money. I think I was full time doing this, but I think I made like two grand a month. I was poor, but I had like a, like a. No girlfriend yet and like a $600 a month apartment, and that was it. So I. I just put it all on a credit card. It was like two grand. And I went to Iceland and we longboarded down that volcano. I fell into like a frozen river at night, chasing A sheep, we got its leg, but it was too fast. And it was cool because it showed my. It like proves to yourself that you can still make your life amazing. So yeah, those two things. And by then I really liked being single because I. There's all these cool things I was doing.
- [51:08]
A
Yeah, that's interesting. That wasn't dependent on you being in a relationship.
- [51:11]
B
Yeah.
- [51:12]
A
And, and that can even be, you know, exacerbated in our faith community where there is theological purpose in a couple being married and sealed. And, and so we find deep purpose in that relationship and having children and engaging in your war. And so that can be maybe a little more tricky when that sort of stigma is looming over you to say, actually I'm in this period of life. I'm not saying that will never happen.
- [51:38]
B
Yeah.
- [51:38]
A
But I can have great purpose and connection with God and friends and community and family where I'm at now.
- [51:45]
B
It's the same thing. Like, it's that this is the path that like if you're not on the path, you need to course correct to get back on it as quickly as possible because there's no progression anywhere but inside the path. Yeah, that's totally how I felt. And I do think it's partially true. Like that thing where people say like men don't mature until they get married. I do think that's pretty true. I think that like, if I wasn't married, I would probably have a Ducati Bullet bike. I'm not allowed to get one of those, but I would have that your
- [52:10]
A
Eldritch corn president also does not afford.
- [52:13]
B
I have too many guitars right now. I'd probably have double the amount I have right now. So like, I do think it's, it helps you, but I don't think you're supposed to skip phases of your life and just get to the next one. Like there's really cool things about being single that when I was married, the first time I got married when I was 20 and I didn't really date in high school, I had like a little part of dating that I did right after my mission before I met my wife, which I went on a lot, but it was like four months. So that was my entire single life was living at my parents house and going on four months of mutual dates. And so like when I was married, I'd see people at byu, Idaho going on all these single trips and I felt sad. I was like, crap, I skipped that part of life. That's sad. I would never leave the marriage because I don't do that. I've only gotten left ever. But I was sad. Like, I felt like I skipped that. And then when I got to vineyard and I went on all those vacations, spent all my money, and my. My dad did think I was dumb. Like, he was like, you could have lived at home, saved this money, and you're blowing it traveling the world. But, like, I'm extremely grateful for that time because now I don't feel like I have regrets. I'm happy being married at the place I am because I waited until I was ready to be there instead of where I should have been along the path.
- [53:19]
A
Yeah. And I appreciate that's just a solid principle in general. Like, there's always this temptation of getting on with life. Right. Like, how can I raise my kids so that we can just get them on a missions and get them in college and get on with life? Or. Or even as a missionary. I remember those first six months of, like, I was more in it to become a return missionary than to be a missionary, really. Right. I was just like, let's just come on. Why isn't time going by? Like, let's go. They said this was great. It's not great what's going on. Right. Like, but instead say, actually, I want to be the best person I am in this stage that I'm in and work on just where I'm at, and then naturally life comes.
- [53:56]
B
Well, that's all life is.
- [53:57]
A
Yeah.
- [53:58]
B
Like, it's just. You're just in that stage, and once you're in the next one, you just want to be the next one. I've had to work on that a lot because I'm. I'm very much, like, achievement and getting places oriented and, yeah, it just leads to never enjoying anything. My wife has really, like, brought this up a lot because I'm always like, oh, I met this revenue, or I did this thing. Oh, okay, I got to do the next one. I never celebrate. Like, I'm at like 750,000 followers and just feels like nothing and dumb because I got to get to a million. Like, it's like, it's stupid, but, like, yeah, I've been really learning recently. A big thing I've been thinking about is that breakups and divorce are cool because they kind of break you out of that. Your entire life plan just shatters, and now you're not stage of the earth. You're in this weird limbo where you don't know where you're going. And that's kind of cool because it gives you the chance to be like, Do I actually like what I'm doing in life? And if not, I can change it. And you really can, especially in your 20s. Like, you can make the dumbest choices ever and still just be all over the place. Like, you can start businesses, totally fail them. I started like 11, like before this one worked. So doing all sorts of random stuff. So I think that it's a cool blessing if you use it and don't just jump in another relationship to be like, do I actually like my life? Do I actually like what I'm doing? Because all it is is those stages. So if you're trying to get to the next one, that means you probably don't like what you're doing and you can do something different.
- [55:18]
A
Yeah. Before we wrap up, any other point, principle, concept that you want to make sure we hit on or how do we do.
- [55:24]
B
I liked it. I thought it was fun. The biggest one, I think is the God one, like, developing an actual understanding of who he is. And I'm trying to still formulate this in my, like, theological, personal stuff. But, like, if you're at the ping pong, God or something like that, of how I viewed it, it is very valuable to learn more about who he is. And writing a church talk, even if you don't have to give one about it, is a great way to force yourself to learn.
- [55:49]
A
Yeah. Love it. If people want to check out the book, follow you, more, more content, I know you have all sorts of options. Where, where would you send them?
- [55:58]
B
Book is on Amazon or Barnes and Noble. It's. It's everywhere books are. And if you want to leave a review, that'd be freaking awesome because, like, Amazon pushes it when it's at like 50 and I'm at 20 right now. So we're on the way. So that, that's the book. You can work with me. Coachcoleziger.com and then I'm on YouTube and Instagram and TikTok and Facebook with that same name.
- [56:20]
A
Awesome. Last question I have for you is just reflecting on your journey about going through the divorce and learning these things. How has this helped you become a better disciple of Jesus Christ?
- [56:30]
B
I've become a lot more, like, better at understanding grace, especially for myself. I was really good always at being compassionate for other people. Like, on my mission, we baptized people who did crazy things. Like, one was like a murderer. And we were able, I was able to have compassion for him, but if I messed up at the dumbest thing, I'd be like, I'm lost. This is over. But like, having my entire worldview shattered and having to realize that I'm not perfect has helped so much in actually viewing that. God doesn't care about that. Like, he wants you as you are. He wants you to be getting better, but he wants you to actually be you. That helped me a lot.
- [57:11]
A
Now that we've reached the end of the episode, I quickly want to thank you for supporting supporting the Leading Saints podcast. There's so much content out there to consider, and you picked this one. If Leading Saints has made an impact in your life, we would sure like to hear about it@leadingsaints.org contact and if you could quickly text or email this episode to a leader, you know, I bet it will bless their life. You can mark off your good turn daily and let's even call it ministering. Okay, maybe not that far. But seriously, thank you and help us share this content. It came as a result of the position of leadership which was imposed upon us by the God of Heaven, who brought forth a restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. When the declaration was made concerning the only true and living Church upon the face of the earth, we were immediately put in a position of loneliness. The loneliness of leadership from which we cannot shrink nor run away, and to which we must face up with boldness and courage and ability.