← Leading Saints
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- [00:02]
A
Hey, everyone, it's important that you know that the Leading Saints podcast is only the beginning. We're not just a podcast anymore. Leading Saints has grown and developed and evolved into a phenomenal online community. And that community specifically is called Zion Lab. And yes, this is an app in your app store, whatever app store you use. If you search for Leading Saints, we'll pop the familiar red logo and it'll take you into Zion Lab. And there is so much content on this, discussions happening, questions about being a bishop, about leading youth, a dynamics of. Of leadership, and church programs that get discussions going. And it is a party over there in. In the best sense of that word, which is a community of Zion builders coming together and working together, sharing best practices on how to build Zion. So at least give this a try. Go spend some time, download the app from the App Store by searching Leading Saints and jump into Zion Lab, the think tank for Zion, the laboratory to come in and test and share best ideas, best practices, and let's grow Zion together in Zion Lab. Hey, if you're a newbie to Leading Saints, is important that you know, what is this Leading Saints thing? Well, Leading Saints is a nonprofit organization dedicated to helping Latter Day Saints be better prepared to lead. And the way we do that is through content creation. So we have this phenomenal podcast, we have a newsletter, we have virtual conferences. So much more articles on our website. I mean, I could go on and on, right? And we encourage you to jump in, check out Leading Saints, go to the search bar@LeadingSaints.org and type in some topics and see what pops up. We're just glad you're here to join us today. I want to introduce you to Orlando Kelm, who is a patriarch down in Texas, a former academic professor, teacher at the University of Texas at Austin. And he felt inspired after six, seven years of serving as a patriarch in his stake to write a book titled It's a Patriarchal Blessing. Emphasis on the blessing. And we have a fantastic discussion with Orlando just about starting as a patriarch. Some of the. The uneasiness, the nervousness that goes into, you know, dictating a blessing upon somebody who they'll look to throughout their life and how to prepare for that, how he prepares personally, how bishops can help others prepare. And then how can we better frame the idea of a patriarchal blessing, that it's not a patriarchal, you know, indictment or a patriarchal lecture or a patriarchal warning. This is a blessing, and we should see it as such. And it's interviews like this remind me, man, I really need to pull up my. My patriarchal blessing and review it more often. There's so much power in that, so much love and identity that God bestows through that. That beautiful blessing. And so hopefully you'll check out the book, recommend it to others, especially those preparing, and I hope you enjoy this interview with Orlando where he explores this concept of not only patriarchal blessings, but revelation and. And how revelation comes to him and dictating, you know, the lineage and so forth. It's just a great discussion and one you'll find inspiring. So here's my interview with Orlando Kilm, the author of It's a Patriarchal Blessing. All right, Orlando, so what's the story about you being called as a patriarch?
- [03:29]
B
Yeah, 2019, just before COVID Oh, wow. I was called as patriarch, and then I fell out of a tree and broke my back. And then they wouldn't let us do patriarchal blessings during the whole Covid period. So I got called, but then I kind of got delayed before anything ever happened after that.
- [03:48]
A
Wow. So how. How long in between being called in your first patriarchal blessing that you gave?
- [03:53]
B
So just a couple of weeks, you know, So I was called in, like, October. I then gave a couple of blessings. I then fell out of the tree, and then we were told not to do blessings at the beginning of the year. And so I went, like, you know, six, eight months there between my first four or five blessings and then never doing it again for months and months and months.
- [04:15]
A
Wow. Yeah, it's one of those things. You can't get a haircut over the phone. Neither can you get a patriarchal blessing over the phone. Right.
- [04:21]
B
Yeah. It was a strange period to kind of get almost know what you're doing and get a feel for it and then have to put it on hold.
- [04:29]
A
Yeah.
- [04:30]
B
But now I. I average maybe one a week about. I would assume that I almost always do one a week. This week I'm drinking three, as a matter of fact.
- [04:38]
A
Oh, wow.
- [04:38]
B
Yeah, it's a heavy week.
- [04:40]
A
So what's the. Is there any, like, formal training or they give you a special handbook to read through, or do you have a mentor, patriarch or anything?
- [04:48]
B
You see what. That's it. This. The instructions that patriarchs have.
- [04:54]
A
It's like maybe it's like a thin magazine. Right.
- [04:58]
B
It's like maybe 10 pages worth. And I would say over half of this information is how to submit names and problems when you submit names. So the actual nuts and bolts of what you're doing. The church does a pretty good job of saying, we don't want to micromanage too much. I think they're really careful about. Let's not do too much oversight of this and that. Let's just let them get rolling. So, no, there isn't tons that way.
- [05:25]
A
So, I mean, I'm just thinking. It feels so intimidating to me. I mean, it seems like a lot of leadership callings and roles have a lot of pressure on, you know, the leader who's called. But I mean, this is sort of the blessing of their life. Right. I kind of. Maybe I put too much pressure on myself.
- [05:42]
B
No, for sure. Because, like, when you serve as a bishop, if somebody doesn't like what you're talking about, you got another week to try again. Right. They come back and they visit you again, and you take another stab. Let me try this instead. You don't get that with a patriarchal blessing, there's only one chance. And so that thought of man, you've got beyond. It's just that keeps you getting ready and humble. For sure.
- [06:11]
A
Yeah.
- [06:11]
B
But there's that sweet spot. There's that sweet spot where. Okay, I'm getting ready for it. I'm confident. But let's not get too confident here, because you got to get this one right.
- [06:23]
A
So did you mention to your first blessing that the person receiving the blessing, this is your first go, or do you just kind of.
- [06:30]
B
Yes. Oh, yeah. They totally know. And in fact, that family, I have now given four blessings to members of that family over the years.
- [06:38]
A
That's awesome.
- [06:39]
C
So.
- [06:39]
B
So, yeah, in fact, I was looking at the data today. I think over 45% of the blessings are multiple members of a family. So I've, you know, I might have done a brother or a sister a couple of years before.
- [06:52]
A
Yeah. And are you the only patriarch in your stake?
- [06:55]
B
I am the only patriarch in our stake, and I'm also the Spanish language patriarch for the area. So if somebody is in the next stake over and their patriarch doesn't speak Spanish, they come to me. And so I do receive a number of people from. From up to Waco, Texas, and below even, you know, just in case they need to send somebody down to us.
- [07:18]
A
Yeah. Did you find it? I would imagine it would really shift my. Just my gospel study in general. I mean, you know, the lineage portion is obviously an important component of it, but I don't know if I could rattle off the 12 tribes of Israel, you know, unless I thought of a Donny Osmond song, but I don't know.
- [07:36]
B
Yeah, indeed. And not only does it shape your study that way, but that's kind of my pattern. You know, three or four days before a person comes to receive blessing, my brain is already churning on.
- [07:50]
A
Yeah, I bet.
- [07:51]
B
What will the topics be? And so you. I find myself studying different sections, different scriptures, looking at different conference talks, listening to different types of online things. It really is those three or four days before you actually give a blessing, your brain is churning. I once told somebody, it's kind of like a faucet that you can't turn off. You know, you wake up in the morning and your brain's already thinking about the next blessing. You go to bed at night and you're still thinking about it. And every scripture you read, you wonder, is maybe this a topic that should be part of this person's blessing next week? And so, yeah, your brain is on overload with that all the time. And I love how that kind of directs a lot of your study, too.
- [08:34]
A
Yeah. And that. That is an interesting component of revelation. I'm sure you sort of get a unique flavor of it where it's not like you, you know, as a. As a bishop. It's not like you have to be sitting in your chair in your bishop's office with your counselors surrounding you in order to receive revelation. It's. You know, I remember oftentimes just driving down the street and boom, it kind of hit me like, you should be thinking about this or have you thought of this name or.
- [08:57]
C
Right.
- [08:57]
A
It kind of is that. That natural churn. Yeah.
- [09:00]
B
I do love how when you're studying something, when you get this new insight and you think, man, I've never thought of this topic this way. I've never interpreted this scripture this way before. I've never noticed that part of this verse before. And so you say to yourself, man, if these are new insights that I'm getting right now, let me listen to that. Because this may be something I need next week when I'm giving a blessing. And that happens over and over again. You get a brand new feel for something, a brand new insight, and you go, ah, let me listen to that.
- [09:33]
A
Yeah, that's fascinating. Just.
- [09:35]
B
Just to kind of show you what I mean, I remember there was a time I was reading in Jude and there's a verse that says, have compassion making a difference. And I remember that little line, it makes a difference. And I mean, it's a verse that we've all seen before, but there was something about that little word, when you have compassion, you really can make a difference. And that sort of feel just jumped out at me. And I thought No, I need to listen to that. That's something that I probably should be paying attention to. And that's the sort of thing that I feel happens quite a bit as you're preparing. But, you know, Kurt, in your case, or in anybody's case, when you're preparing to give a blessing for somebody, your mind is doing the same thing. You know, it's just that I have to do it on a weekly basis. But when you give a blessing, your brain probably does the exact same thing.
- [10:28]
A
Yeah, yeah, for sure. For sure. Is there anything else in just the preparation of it that comes to mind that you found is helpful or insightful?
- [10:37]
B
In that little manual I showed you, that little tiny piece there, there is a line that talks about trying to live your life in a way that you're not living with contention. And I feel that's really important, that how can we prepare to give a patriarchal blessing if our whole life is surrounded by contention? And so you do make a. I find myself making a bigger effort to not be contentious or exposed to contention. So I do find myself saying, you know what? I can't chance getting my brain into that mindset. And so that, I think, is also part for sure of that preparation phase of, am I doing things within my family or the sort of media I watch or the things I get into just to try and say, you know, try to keep yourself out of that mode. So it's not hard to get into the right mode.
- [11:31]
A
You might say, yeah, that's great. I'm curious. As you know, you mentioned sort of this dynamic of this revelation sort of starting to massage your mind a little bit leading up, you know, days before the actual blessing, is it inappropriate that to write down some notes and bring them with you into the blessing setting? Or how do you do that?
- [11:49]
B
I totally have a notebook that before everybody ever comes to my home, I am making written notes of ideas and topics. And so when a person comes into my home, I already have made a list of 7, 8 different possible topics that might become part of that blessing. And then what happens is when you're meeting with the recipient of the candidate, you're talking some of those things just kind of float to the top, and some of them just kind of disappear. But I do. I do actually have a notebook that I make before they come to my house. Now, I don't take that with me into the blessing, and I don't have the notes in front of me when I give the blessing. But as part of my. Before they come into my house, I am Making a list of them. Also, you know, I said I give blessings in Spanish sometimes. And the challenge of giving a blessing in another language is that I don't have all of these phrases in my head like I do in my native language. And so a lot of times when I give a blessing in Spanish, if I'm trying to quote something, I'll give it my best shot. But I will go back after the blessing and make sure that the wording really is the way it. The way it's stated in the scriptures. And so there is also that aspect of when it's not true language, it's just harder. Just draw things out of your brain. Yeah.
- [13:13]
A
And if I understand right there is that, you know, you say you kind of get one go at it, but as you are submitting the blessing and finalizing it, you do have opportunity to maybe go back to say this sentence. I knew what I was trying to say, but I could reword that better to be more on target. Is that fair?
- [13:27]
B
100%. And the manual even says that when you Re. When you review it, review it for grammar and punctuation and for content. And that's a really interesting experience, Kurt, because what happens is sometimes when I'm typing it up, my brain goes, you know what I was trying to say, let me change this word or that word. Let me change this to kind of get closer to what I was trying to say. And so I do find myself sometimes making little edits. But the opposite happens as well, Kurt, which is sometimes my brain goes, no, that is what you said, and I don't think I should change it. So I found myself on both sides of that, which is sometimes you change it because you try to make it better, and other times you say, no, that really is the way I said it, and I really shouldn't change it. I remember one time giving a blessing where there was a phrase that seemed pretty forceful. And I remember thinking, maybe I should soften that up a little bit. But no, Then I felt, no, I really shouldn't soften it. That I think it was pronounced that way for a reason. And so I left it, you know, so it happens both ways.
- [14:35]
A
Yeah, that really is a. I mean, I don't know if I'd say unique experience, but as far as, like, just that, you know, I'm thinking back to the times of Joseph Smith, where he's. He's going back to some of his manuscripts and. And maybe adjusting some things or whatever before it hits the printing press. And, you know, that's part of this process of getting it right and hearing that revelation through our mortal ears and our mortal mind.
- [14:59]
B
And I actually think this is an important thing to understand because, I don't know, there's something about church tradition that kind of thinks that patriarchs are these people who open their mouth and God's words flow out of it. And if you were anywhere in the world, the patriarch would have said exactly the same thing in the same way, because it just goes out that way, and that's not the way it is at all. I do love in our manual, it says, your blessing should not be given from what you know about the person, but from revelation, from the Holy Ghost, the thoughts that it generates and the capacity to express them. Isn't that interesting? So what it says is, you receive revelation, it creates thoughts and ideas, but you still got to figure out how to say it. And it's going to be based on my capacity to express them. So I often tell people, for better, for worse, you're going to get an Orlando kiln version of a patriarchal blessing, because it is my capacity to put into words those thoughts and impressions that I have. Yeah, and. And you're the same way, you know, you and your family. You. If you want to tell your children that you love them, your spouse has her way of doing it and you have your way of doing it, and it's going to be a Kurt style when they come across.
- [16:19]
A
Yeah. And I appreciate that just in our faith tradition as a whole, where, you know, there's things that President Monson did that are different than what President Nelson did. Now what President Oaks is doing, and it's not because, you know, President Nelson wasn't, you know, he was hearing revelation, but President Oaks is going to hear it differently and. And lay it out differently. And. And that's just the beauty of it is, is we. God invites us to participate as his children in this process, not just. Not just to be puppets, you know.
- [16:49]
B
Oh, yeah. And you're going to find people that really identified with President Monson and he spoke to their heart, and you're going to have others that go, not as much, but I really connected with Hinckley, you know, and so it's the same thing.
- [17:03]
A
Yeah. That's fascinating. Anything else about just the preparation of it that we.
- [17:07]
B
Worth mentioning, or in terms of my own preparation, maybe not. But in terms of the preparation that others go through, we could take that happen.
- [17:16]
A
Yeah. That was a question I wanted to ask is, you know, even from a bishop standpoint of, you know, helping somebody prepare for a Patriarchal blessing, is there preparation that they could encourage or, you know, for the, the receiver of the blessing?
- [17:31]
B
Yeah, very much so. Now, when a person receives the recommend and they contact me, the first thing is that I do is send them a text message with a list of about 12 or 15 recommended general conference talks, scriptures, chapters, topics to read. Now I tell them it's all optional, but I do give them a possible list of things to do in preparation. And I've also shared that list with all of the bishops in our stake. So they know when they're interviewing the candidate that they can also know that this is what I'll be sending to them and this is what they can do and study in preparation for it. It also depends too. You know, sometimes we're giving blessings to a 14, 15, 16 year old youth who's been raised in the church, and other times it's a recent convert who's 40, 50, 60 years old. And so that those preparations will be different based on those kind of things too.
- [18:26]
A
That's great.
- [18:26]
B
The other thing I've found out over the years is it's kind of a scary thing to call a patriarch up, connect with the person, come to this stranger's house, and what are they going to say? What are they going to do? There's almost like this mysterious, you know, I'm going to this bearded guru Gandalf on the hill who's going to pronounce some words, you know, and I've really appreciated over the years that it's scary for a lot of people that they're pretty nervous about coming to my house and so what can I do to help them feel more comfortable when they get here too, and to not be so freaked out about it. But you know, in the church we kind of, I don't know if the word is disservice, but we've got a weird tradition that goes with patriarchs. You know, we sit on the stand at stake conference. Like, why do they make me sit on the stand at state conference? I have no role other than to be a plant or a flower to add to the scenery. But there's something about, oh, we're supposed to put the patriarch on the stand. And so people kind of have this weird sense of what patriarchs are like and what they do. And so for me, part of the getting ready is to say no. The inspiration that a patriarch receives to give a blessing is the same inspiration that everybody gets when they have to give a blessing or say a prayer or bear their testimony. And so we shouldn't think that somehow patriarchs have a whole different way of pronouncing a blessing anybody else does. Yeah, that's really the other thing I'd say, Kurt, is that. And for me, this is one of the most important ones is it's called a patriarchal blessing. You know, I had a patriarch years who came to talk to our ward and he said, it's not a patriarchal warning. It's not a patriarchal admonition. It's not a patriarchal chewing out. It's a patriarchal blessing, and it should be a blessing in our lives. My experience is that so many members of the church don't look at their patriarchal blessing as a blessing. Often people come to me and they say, there are parts of my blessing I don't understand, or why did this patriarch say this? Or this never happened? Or this. I don't understand this part. How sad. You know, we've got to be able to do something so that it does feel like a blessing. You're excited to get it, you're excited to receive it, and it feels like it's a blessing in your life. Not warning, admonition, you know, chewing out.
- [20:53]
A
Yeah, that's. I mean, that it's one of those things. Well, yeah, it makes sense. But, yeah, I do catch myself sort of falling into that.
- [20:59]
C
Right.
- [21:00]
A
Or we want the. The patriarchal fortune telling. You know, just tell me, am I going to be rich someday or am I, you know, do, do I marry or do I go on a mission or, you know, those things.
- [21:10]
B
Well, and that's one thing that I warn people off of quite a bit, which is too often people look at their patriarchal blessing as a list of events, and we kind of check them off. Go on a mission, check. Get married in the temple, check. Have children, check. If you look at your patriarchal blessing as a checklist, a couple of bad things happen. Number one, once that event happens, now you think that part of your blessing no longer applies to you ever again. So let's say, for example, you say, oh, my patriarchal blessing says I should go on a mission. I went on a mission, checked it off, as if that part of your blessing now doesn't mean anything for the rest of your life. And so one of the dangers of the checklist is once it happens, you kind of take it off the list and it no longer applies. The other side is, what if the thing in the checklist doesn't happen? You decide, you don't go on a mission, you never do get married, you don't have Children, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Well, then that puts you in this weird mindset of, well, was it because I'm a bad person? Did I do something that disqualified me for this blessing? Was the patriarch totally wrong? And then you kind of go through this whole weird funk of, why does my blessing say this? And it didn't happen. So I often tell people, if you can look at your blessing as something you bring to all of life's events and all of life's decisions and all of life's challenges, then you can apply it to everything, as opposed to your little checklist of things on the list. That would really help if everybody just understood that. No, don't think of it as a checklist. Yeah, and I'll add Kirk. Sometimes I've had people like, I don't know if I'm supposed to go on a mission, so I'm going to get a patriarchal blessing to see if I'm supposed to go or not. It's like, well, if the blessing says I should, I should. And if the blessing doesn't talk about it, I guess I'm off the hook. It's like, no, you cannot use your patriarchal blessing as a replacement for your own search for inspiration and guidance in your life. It helps you. But to, like, remove all the responsibility, because now it's if the blessing says it or not, that certainly is not what your blessing is designed to do. And so we don't want people to fall into that trap of thinking, oh, if my blessing says it, it has to be that way, or if it doesn't say, it doesn't apply at all.
- [23:37]
A
Yeah, that's really helpful. I want to go back to a few things that you mentioned. One, you mentioned this list of 15 to 20 talks. It's kind of a rule on the podcast that my audience will get angry at me if I don't twist your arm for that list of talks and include it in the show notes.
- [23:51]
B
So just write it down here. I will totally send you my list.
- [23:55]
A
So we'll put it in the show notes. And then I think it's really insightful, and it seems maybe a basic point, but this feeling of people feeling nervous coming into your home, and I think this is a dynamic in church leadership that we sometimes look over because, you know, a stake president is thinking, oh, well, you know, I've got some appointments. I've be good to group them together and they can all come to the church and meet with it. Just, it's more of a practical thing to invite people into the stake Pres. Office. But for one individual to be called into the stake president's office, like that's a very nerve wracking experience. Or for the stake president, just another night of the office, you know, and so to really just be mindful that people are walking in, they're very nervous, so how can you put them at ease or help them feel more comfortable or you know, find opportunities maybe to go to them? Obviously that would apply in this setting, but is there anything specific you do to, to put people at ease as they enter your home?
- [24:46]
B
Well, one thing I have done is I've asked all the bishops in our stake to give me a chance to come and meet their youth, come and meet their people. This could be a Wednesday night activity, it could be a fireside, it could be come during their Sunday school class, it could be speaking, their sacrament meeting. But just do something so that they at least have seen me before and they can find out that hey, maybe he's not such a crazy guru as I think, you know. So part of it really is helping me to be exposed to members of the stake. You know, people that come to my home aren't even necessarily in my home ward. They've never seen me or heard of me ever before. And so they're, they're going into a stranger's house. Anything I can do to help reduce that is helpful. And I do know that a lot of times when, especially for the youth, if they've met me before, they can say, oh yeah, you came to our ward once and da da, da, da. Or in my case, my hobby is astrophotography and nature photography. And so I can show people pictures of my galaxies and nebulas and that kind of thing. And it just helps to kind of break that ice a little bit. Also if they're in high school, you know, I find out if they're on the band or if they're the science kid and all that kind of thing. Just do something to break that.
- [26:07]
A
Yeah, yeah, that's really good. I would imagine, you know, talk about this experience of sometimes, you know, that revelation is flowing. It's just sort of up to you and your brain to, to articulate it into words. And I would imagine there's a lot of moments where you are, it is up to you to articulate the love that God has for them individually. Is that. I'm sure that's quite the task, you
- [26:28]
B
know, Maybe so, but gosh, I am just blown away with the quality and the feeling you have of being in a room with spectacular people. There is something, Kurt, about seeing a mom and dad come with a youth, and they kind of struggle with their goofy teenager on a daily basis. And then they come to my home and they hear all these wonderful things about their child, you know, and to kind of realize that, wow, this is what the Lord thinks of my son. These are some of the things that he is telling my son. And I just love to see the parents kind of be overwhelmed with a sense of, wow, my kid's a good kid. He's a spectacular youth. That's just a neat thing. And I feel that way too. You know, you. You kind of get into the world of social medias and news and things drag you down, and then they come to my home, and there's just this feeling of I am in the presence of a really awesome kid. It's just a neat feeling to think that these are spectacular individuals. I remember I gave a blessing a few years ago to a couple. They were originally from Honduras. Nothing spectacular about them socially. You know, one cleaned apartments, one did maintenance. In society, we're always talking about they don't bring us our best, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I was in the presence of God's elect, you know, and when I put my hands on their head, it was just like, oh, these people are spectacular. And to be able to talk about spiritual gifts that the Lord has given to them and opportunities that they're going to have, people they're going to influence, ways they can represent the Lord, to gather Israel and all that, it's just like, it is so neat to think of people as their best selves. And that's kind of what a patriarchal blessing does. And so every time I meet somebody, I get to see their best side, you might say their most positive attribute about them. It's really gratifying to be part of that.
- [28:38]
A
Yeah. Takes my mind to that. I don't know, verbatim, that C.S. lewis quote about, you know, if you could see the eternal nature of each soul, you would worship them, right? Yeah. You sort of get a glimpse of that, that we truly are children of a divine being. And it's. It's beautiful. So really good. Tell me about just the dynamic of the, you know, pronouncing a lineage sometimes that can. Obviously, I love the idea of this is a patriarchal blessing that you're going to pronounce various blessings. But what could you teach us about the lineage portion?
- [29:09]
B
Yeah. So let's take two steps back and say covenant of Abraham, gathering of Israel, and the declaration of lineage. Because when we make a declaration of lineage, what we're really saying is you are part of the family, you are part of Abraham's covenant children. And all the blessings that were given to Abraham, they're yours. And the opportunities that were given to Abraham, they're yours. And the Lord told Abraham, through you and your descendants, we're going to take the gospel to the whole world. And through priesthood authority, they're going to be open up to eternal life and exaltation. And so a declaration of lineage really is to say, that's you, you're part of the group. You know, I love the verses in Third Nephi when Christ says to the Nephites, ye are the children of Israel, you are the children of the prophets, you are the children of the covenant. And so a declaration of lineage is to say, that's you, that's your opportunity, you get to be part of it. The Lord has a plan to bring all of his children home, and he needs some helpers, he needs his army. And your patriarchal blessing says you get to be part of that group. So the first thing I'd say about a declaration of lineage is it's a chance to say, you're invited, you get to be part of this great work. And for whatever reason, the Lord thinks you're going to be a great candidate to help them out. Now, the actual declaration of which tribe a person comes from, I think it's interesting that when you read the blessings of the different tribes, think of it as, how will I contribute? How can I help out in the gathering of Israel and taking the gospel of the whole world. Now, clearly the majority of the people are told they're from the tribe of Ephraim. And when we read the blessing of Joseph, that applies to both Ephraim and Manasseh. The Lord says, you're like a big old longhorn bull, and with these horns, you're going to push people together from all over the world and bring them to the gospel. The ten thousands of Ephraim and the thousands of Anasa, you know, so if you're told you're from the tribe of Ephraim, the Lord is saying, you're part of that mover and shaker group. You're part of that group that takes them all and brings them. The Lord needs those leaders to do that. Now, you could be told you're from any tribe. And what I always reinforce with the people that receive a blessing is, this is not a DNA test. I said, after thousands of years, you literally have some ancestor who was related to Reuben. You have another ancestor who was related to Zebulon and Gad and Asher and whoever you know, Simeon, Levi, we all are going to have literally ancestors from everywhere. And so the declaration of lineage is not a DNA test. It is to say how can you most contribute to helping the Lord gather His children again? Now, it just so happens that we still need Ephraim a lot because we still need to settle all who are going to be those leaders that way. But we could say others because there are other talents or abilities that you bring to the table. I'll give you a couple specifics. Most people are told they're from Ephraim or Manasseh and Judah. Those are kind of the three top ones that statistically you'd say that get called out the most. If I were told I was a member of the tribe of Judah, then I would try to figure out for the rest of my life why did the Lord tell me Judah? And I recently gave a blessing where I did tell this young lady she was from the tribe of Judah. And her blessing contains so many powerful statements about not just bearing testimony of Christ, but really feeling the power of his atonement and his suffering and his resurrection and his ascension. And there was just something really powerful, powerful about the way that she is going to be able to identify with her Savior and bear testimony of him in a way that just seemed to be more profound than most people. And I could just say, that's your role as a member of the Tribe of Judah. You're going to have an opportunity to bear testimony of your Messiah in a way that maybe others can't. Now, if I were told I was from the tribe of Zebulon, Zebulon is told that he is like a haven on the sea. Well, I mean, if you look at the map in the Old Testament, Zebulon didn't even get any land near water. It's like, how could be told you're like a haven in the sea. But when you think about it, a haven is a place where people go as a refuge, as a place of protection. I think it's beautiful that if I were ever told I was from the tribe of Zebulon, maybe one of the ways that I would contribute is by helping people have a haven, a place to go to, a refuge, a way to be safe. That would be a beautiful thought, wouldn't it? That's maybe what I would do. By the way, if you look at a map, I believe the city of Nazareth was located in the territory of the tribe of Zebulon.
- [34:40]
A
Oh, interesting.
- [34:41]
B
Yeah. It's kind of sweet to know that the city of Nazareth was located in the area whose blessing talks about having a haven to go to all that, to say that if somebody is told they're from a certain tribe, that's how they are invited to receive the blessings of Abraham. And then you would say, okay, based on that tribe, what are some of the promises and blessings that help me contribute to the gathering of Israel? It may be behaving in protection. It may be a way to bear testimony of Christ. It may be that leadership role of bringing it in. If somebody's from the tribe of Levi, for example, one of their blessings is to be able to teach the ordinances and teach the gospel. So maybe that would be something we would look at. So every tribe would kind of contribute in a different way. I often tell people it's kind of like a sports team, you know, if you're into American football, some of the players are 6, 8 and 350 pounds, and others are 5, 7 and 150 pounds. And they all contribute differently because they have a different skill set that they bring. And that's kind of how I see the different designation of tribes. Everybody would have a different way to contribute to taking the gospel to the whole world.
- [35:58]
A
Yeah. And so when it comes to those, those tribes, like, it's not necessarily your role is dictated, but it gives you an opportunity to sit with some of the, the verbiage related to that tribe and lean into the revelation that you may get personally about what that means.
- [36:14]
C
Right.
- [36:14]
B
And you know, another thing I warn people against is this is not a personality test. You know, I think sometimes we think of it as, oh, you are from Aries, you're a Taurus, the bull. You're, you know, we think of like a zodiac sign.
- [36:28]
A
Yeah, that's true.
- [36:29]
B
And all Aries are creative. No, this has nothing to do with personality test. And just because Levi was hot headed and they went and attacked a bunch of people doesn't mean those from the tribe of Levi are hot headed and go and attack people. So try to remove ourselves from that mindset of whatever personality Reuben had. That's a definition of those from the tribe of Reuben. I think that would be dangerous to think in that light, wouldn't it? Or in that way.
- [37:02]
A
Yeah, yeah, that's interesting. Really good. Anything else about the lineage portion that would be worth mentioning? We covered all pretty well.
- [37:09]
B
I remember the first time when I started giving blessings. I really stressed about the idea of how am I going to declare a person's tribe, what kind of inspiration do you receive when. When you have to decide that? And you know what? I found that there have been a few times where I've been kind of stumped initially, and I'm not. It takes me a while to figure it out. But most of the times, Kurt, it's actually pretty easy in that it's like my brain can't think of any name except for. Except for the one that I've got to say, or it just feels right. And I do remember, I mean, the first couple of lessons that I gave, I declared the tribe of Ephraim, and I felt good about that. And it was like, oh, maybe the fourth or fifth one, Somebody came to my house, and the second he walked into the house, my brain went, I think I'm supposed to say a different tribe today. I think I'm supposed to say Manasseh. Yeah. It was something I thought even before the blessing started, and I was kind of nervous about it, you know.
- [38:14]
A
Yeah, sure.
- [38:16]
B
Because I was brand new at this. I'd never done it. And maybe to show my lack of confidence a little bit, as we were talking before the blessing, I just happened to mention to the parents, did you ever receive a patriarchal blessing before? And this is. Yes, we did. And I said, just out of curiosity, what tribes were you told that you were from? And mom goes Manasseh, and dad goes Manasseh. And I went, oh, thank you, Heavenly Father. And. Because I didn't have enough confidence to say it, but now I do, because maybe it's not such a crazy thought that I had when I thought that way. But in general, Kurt, I found that it really isn't as difficult of a task to declare lineage as I thought it would be. And again, the vast majority are going to. I've said Ephraim or Manasseh a number of times. I've said Judah. Only a couple of other times in all my blessings have I said anything other than those tribes. I have said others as well, but the vast majority are Ephraim and Manasseh or Judah.
- [39:19]
A
Yeah. And I appreciate you framing it. I forget exactly how to do. But as far as, like, we're all. At the end of the day, we're all on the same team. Like, we're all. We all have the general, you know, mission to gather Israel and, you know, be a part of that. Just so it's not, you know. You know, again, it's not a personality test or anything like that that you have to nail.
- [39:38]
B
And this young lady that, that I had a couple of weeks ago. I even knew that her mom and dad were told they were from the tribe of Ephraim. But I still felt really pushed to say Judah when I gave her blessing. And so it was one of those of, okay, this is the impression I'm receiving and I've got to go with it. And even though logically my brain is going, mom and dad were told they were from the tribe of Ephraim. I mean, I didn't actually know that know that, but I was pretty clear on it in my brain. And sure enough, I talked to him afterwards. But her daughter is, was told that she is a member of the tribe of Judah. That's awesome.
- [40:16]
A
Really good. Where do you want to go next with this? As we wrap up on as far as just the, the contents of the statements in a patriarchal blessing or what feels like we haven't hit on enough,
- [40:28]
B
maybe reinforce the idea that I love that a patriarchal blessing is a confirmation that you're a big deal that, you know, sometimes I think how amazing is it that out of the billions of people that live on this earth and the millions that get to be members of the church, we have especially these youth who for whatever reason have the opportunity to be raised in a location, in an environment that they can learn they're a child of God from day one and have a sense of a relationship with Heavenly Father and get the inkling of a testimony when they're young and try to put together the pieces of do I believe this stuff? I mean, just this past week I gave a blessing to a young man who's only 15 years old. And I asked him, I said, what made you feel like you wanted to get your blessing now? And he goes, I had so many decisions in front of me and it seems to be getting harder. And I thought, man, here's a 15 year old who's got it together enough, who is saying, I got some decisions in front of me and I want to get a little bit of help to make sure I'm pointing in the right direction. And so to reinforce that idea that how cool is that? That the Lord with his master plan for all of his children is putting things in place so that some of these people can be told right away you have an opportunity to use some of your spiritual gifts and your talents to bless other people. And I'm going to identify that for you so you can develop it and look forward to it and do it. And so it's a two edged thing, which is you're hot stuff. And the Lord actually needs people and this is one of his ways to say, I'm asking you to help me, help me bring my children home. I mean that's one of the main reasons why I want to call it a patriarchal blessing because it brings that realization of wow, the Lord has confidence in me and he needs me and he's helping me along. So that, that's just neat stuff.
- [42:37]
A
Yeah, that's the blessing part of it. This is, it's full of encouragement. Right. And that we are, we are God's child. You know, that makes us a big deal.
- [42:45]
B
So and so it's not a patriarchal warning, it's not a patriarchal ammunition, it's not a patriarchal chewing out. It's a patriarchal blessing.
- [42:54]
A
Yep. Anything we you haven't said as far as just when we're striving to interpret or bring meaning to each line and word and a blessing like. Any thoughts there on guiding us through that?
- [43:06]
B
Yeah, I think it would be. We need to be more open and more flexible in interpreting things in a broad sense. I think too often we're very narrow of what does this mean? How can it be interpreted in this? Only one way. Why did he say it this? You know, really it's more like any scripture we read in our lives that we'll read the same verses, the same stories, the same situations. And when we're young and trying to figure out what to do at school, it hits us one way. When we're serving as a missionary and we're teaching somebody we care about, it hits us another way. We're making a decision on our career and education. The same things we feel a different way. And when we fall in love and make relationships, the same things we interpret differently. And when you're a dad and you're dealing with your five year old child, you interpret it different again. And when that child is 15, you interpret it different again. So I think one of the things I would say is that our patriarchal blessing should work the same way, which is be really open to. This is an avenue to receive guidance and inspiration throughout our whole lives in everything that we encounter. And don't limit your blessing to just one meaning at one time with one interpretation. Let it be that catalyst that creates just one more avenue for the Lord to help us feel good about what we're doing. That's a much better way to think about it, isn't it?
- [44:41]
A
Yeah, really good. Well, I definitely want to make sure we clearly point people towards where to find your book. But is there any other point, principle, story that you want to make sure we squeeze in here before we wrap
- [44:51]
B
up or only to say that the title of the book is It's a Patriarchal Blessing. And that's really what I hope people get out of it. And, you know, it's not just for those that are getting ready for a blessing. Hopefully this book will help people that have already got it and those that are helping others get ready for their blessing as well. So, yeah, it's a patriarchal blessing.
- [45:12]
A
Love it. Well, last question I have for you, Orlando, is, you know, obviously, you know, being a patriarch is a. Is a leadership role, and maybe it's a very unique leadership role. You know, you don't have a patriarchal presidency or a quorum that you're meeting with or leading or those things, but definitely there's some great influence there. So as you reflect back on your time as a leader, how has being a leader helped you become a better follower of Jesus Christ?
- [45:36]
B
You know, the beauty of being a patriarch is that I do have to prepare every day for things and getting ready, getting ready, getting ready, getting ready. I remember when. When I served in a bishopric, the same thing, that faucet that just keeps on flowing. It's the same way. It just keeps on flowing and keeps on flowing. And in every position or calling I've ever received, that same sense of. I am surrounded by incredible, fantastic people. The members of the ward are amazing. The youth are amazing. The new converts are amazing. The new primary presidencies, amazing. The teacher that teaches the kids are amazing. I think that sense of appreciation for all the members of the ward and how they all contribute and how they interact together, you know, the scriptures are pretty clear that the eye cannot say to the ear, I have no need of thee. The foot can't say to the nose, I don't need you. Every little piece is necessary. And so in a leadership position, it's the same thing. We get to look out and see all the contributions and all the different skills and all the spiritual gifts and all the new excitement that people bring. Never at any point as a leader do we have to be the guy that knows it all and does it all. And when you see the strength that is in the excitement of the youth and the excitement of the new converts and the courage of the missionaries and the guts that the person has to take on a calling for the first time. To me, that's something that we learn in leadership positions, and maybe sometimes we forget just how awesome everybody is. And it's a good reminder.
- [47:27]
A
That concludes this episode of the Leading Saints Podcast. We'd love to hear from you about your questions or thoughts or comments. Go to leadingsaints.org contact and send us your perspective or questions. If there's other episodes or topics you'd like to hear here on the Leading Saints podcast, go to leadingsaints.org contact and share with us the information there. And we would love for you to share this with any individual you think this would apply to, especially maybe individuals in your ward, council or other leaders that you may know who would really appreciate the perspectives that we discussed.
- [48:06]
C
It came as a result of the position of leadership which was imposed upon us by the God of Heaven, who brought forth a restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. When the declaration was made concerning the only true and living church upon the face of the earth, we were immediately put in a position of loneliness, the loneliness of leadership from which we cannot shrink nor run away, and to which we must face up with boldness and courage and ability.