What if the challenges you're facing aren't obstacles—but invitations to grow? In this episode, Heidi Brooks and leadership expert Jennifer Garvey Berger explore how we grow through uncertainty, not just survive it. They also discuss why change is essential for leaders, how to turn everyday challenges into opportunities for growth and why embracing imperfection might be the key to thriving in an anxious world.

Sharing insights from her book Changing on the Job, Jennifer talks about the power of character development, the conditions that make learning possible and the small but profound shifts that help us navigate complexity. She and Heidi unpack a paradox of leadership today—where we admire vulnerability in others but still strive for perfection ourselves.

Together, they ask: What if the difficulties we encounter are actually the curriculum for our growth? Whether you're a leader facing high-stakes decisions or simply looking to approach change with more courage and curiosity, this conversation will challenge the way you think about learning, leading and transformation.

Learning Through Experience is produced through the Yale School of Management. What resonates with you about this conversation? We'd love to hear from you—reach out to LTEpodcast@yale.edu. And subscribe to the LinkedIn newsletter for additional insights and reflections about the episode topics and takeaways.

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Show Notes & Key Moments

2:40 – From Teaching English to Coaching LeadersJennifer shares how her early love of storytelling and character development led her to leadership coaching: "I've always been fascinated by how people grow and change. Now, instead of just reading stories, I get to help co-author them in real time."

5:00 – When Change Becomes UnavoidableThe most meaningful transformations happen when people recognize that their old ways of thinking no longer serve them: "My favorite experiences are when people say, 'Hey, me—I need to be different.'"

11:30 – Work as a School for AdulthoodJennifer challenges the assumption that personal growth stops after childhood: "We hit 20, and suddenly there's no more context for growth. But workplaces should be the schools of adulthood."

22:00 – The Conditions That Make Learning PossibleInstead of resisting difficulties, what if we saw them as part of our learning curriculum? Growth requires both challenge and support: "Organizations know how to push people, but they often forget to create the scaffolding that helps people rise to the challenge."

35:00 – Noticing the Invisible Forces That Shape UsThe first step in transformation isn't action—it's awareness: "Can I begin to notice more? The assumptions I carry? The way I react? The invisible currents shaping me?"

39:00 – Experimenting with New Ways of BeingJennifer encourages small, intentional experiments in daily leadership: "Could this meeting be a learning event? Could I approach this conversation differently?"

42:00 – The Surprising Lesson of AI & Human ConnectionHeidi and Jennifer discuss why some people find AI more "empathetic" than humans—and what that tells us about the way we show up for each other.

45:00 – The Lifelong Practice of Growth

Something to sit with: "Getting behind our growth can be painful, but it's also the greatest relief."

The Growth Curriculum: How Everyday Struggles Shape Us

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