Legacy Talk with Lena Waithe

Episode: "Building a Legacy with Ava DuVernay"

Release Date: August 19, 2025
Host: Lena Waithe
Guest: Ava DuVernay

Episode Overview

In this rich and candid conversation, Lena Waithe sits down with acclaimed filmmaker Ava DuVernay to reflect on DuVernay’s extraordinary career, her creative journey from indie documentaries to Hollywood features, and her commitment to storytelling that centers Black experiences and historical truth. The episode sheds light on the art and burden of legacy, the evolution of personal and professional identity, and the transformative power of choosing one’s own path in an often resistant industry.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Growth, Friendship, and Legacy

• Ava and Lena open with warmth and mutual appreciation, highlighting their long-standing friendship and evolution over the years. Lena acknowledges how Ava has changed, matured, and deepened her creative energy.
  • Ava DuVernay [00:13]: "I've seen you change in beautiful ways. You're not my child, but I remember you at a younger time...You had a different energy. And I think the energy has. It's matured and it's still vibrant, but it is matured. It's more. God, I don't know, it's is cooler."
• They joke about old memories, including Ava urging Lena to smile more in photos.

2. Early Work & Documentary Beginnings

• Lena lauds "This Is the Life" as one of her favorite documentaries, prompting Ava to discuss the film’s shoestring budget and DIY ethos.

  • Ava DuVernay [03:23]: “Check to check...I probably spent five grand, maybe seven grand, maybe...But it's hand. I love it because it's handmade. And it's probably one of my favorite things that I've ever made.”

• Ava underscores the creative freedom of early projects, unburdened by external expectations.

  • Ava DuVernay [05:34]: “The time when nobody's looking and nobody cares what you're doing is the best time...When the pressures start to come, it does change the chemistry and the vibe and the energy around the work.”

• The importance of key collaborators emerges, with Ava sharing the story of meeting editor Spencer Averick, whose audition on "This Is the Life" marked the start of a lifelong partnership.

  • Ava DuVernay [07:17]: "I'm barely paying you $4. But you're gonna audition? ...This boy cut this thing down so hard...he's probably the most important creative collaborator of my career."

3. Narrative Film Debuts: "I Will Follow" & "Middle of Nowhere"

• Lena reflects on her time as a PA for Ava’s first narrative film, "I Will Follow," and Ava recounts making the movie on a $50,000 budget in a single location, drawing from her real-life experience as a caregiver.

• The profound influence of casting director Aisha Coley is explored, especially in casting Sally Richardson-Whitfield and Omari Hardwick for "I Will Follow,” setting up themes Ava would revisit in future work: love, distance, and professional ambition.

  • Ava DuVernay [14:16]: “I had never directed actors...for her to step into that and say, I will do this...I'll be forever grateful to her.”

• "Middle of Nowhere," Ava's intended debut script, eventually became her “graduate thesis”—a $200,000 film that won the Directing Award at Sundance, making her the first Black woman to do so.

  • Ava DuVernay [27:16]: “Are you kidding? That has to be one of the most shocked moments of my actual whole life...That award was a big deal. And from there, things start to happen in terms of the next steps.”
  • On the impact: Ava DuVernay [29:36]: “It changed everything.”

Notable Quote

• Lena Waithe [29:16]: "Can't skip over it."
• Ava DuVernay: “Big deal. It was a big deal for me. It gave me as someone who didn't go to film school...so much.”

4. Transition to Television: "Scandal" and "Queen Sugar"

• Ava shares the challenges and lessons learned directing Shonda Rhimes’ "Scandal"—her first TV episodic assignment—including the lack of creative control and its role in shaping her approach to "Queen Sugar."

  • Ava DuVernay [32:27]: “The reason why I cried on set was because I did not have control. ...That’s where I made the decision. It's not happening again.”
  • On "Queen Sugar": She created an environment of artistic freedom for other women directors, imparting the chance to push back and claim agency.
  • Ava DuVernay [34:08]: “Sometimes you have to have someone tell you directly, you can do this.”

• Discussion of filmmaking "toys"— tools and resources only accessible at high budgets—sparks a reflection on how Black and indie filmmakers continually create greatness with fewer means.

5. Breaking Through: "Selma"

• “Selma” represents a defining moment—DuVernay was the seventh director on the film, brought in with the help of David Oyelowo, whose faith and advocacy proved instrumental.
  • Ava DuVernay [38:13]: “He tries to keep the film alive...he says, I just worked with this woman. She made a film that won Sundance for $200,000...if I can bring you another director who will make it for the $20 million, will you make it? Yes.”
  • On her approach: Ava centered King’s humanity and the crucial roles of women in the movement.
  • Ava DuVernay [44:08]: “To paint him as a saint is not historically accurate. To paint him as a real man, an ordinary man who did extraordinary things is accurate...”

Memorable Moment

• Ava DuVernay [41:34]: “I felt in pocket. I felt I had done enough things at that point that...I know how to do it, I know how to get it, I know how to do it...I'm working with subject matter that nobody can tell me anything about this.”

6. Global Reach & Social Impact: "13th" and "When They See Us"

• The discussion shifts to Ava’s return to documentary with "13th," emphasizing its global resonance and role as a catalyst for public consciousness about the carceral system.

  • Ava DuVernay [53:04]: “It was my first film where I thought, oh, I can learn while I'm making it and I can share what I learn...It was about people understanding prison is just a place where bad people go. ...studies done that the thought about prison has changed since 13th...”

• Lena draws thematic connections between Ava’s works, such as her use of hip hop lyrics and historical context.

• When They See Us: Ava describes being approached by Raymond Santana of the Exonerated Five and feeling a personal and historic calling to narrate their story.

  • Ava DuVernay [66:31]: “I always had been fascinated by that case...Their story was so classic Hero's journey...But people didn't know the back half...it became a calling.”

  • On impact and narrative:

    • Ava DuVernay [71:10]: “Filmmakers, artists, musicians...It is our job...to keep history alive. ...Make a version that they do watch...We have to keep iterating and keep telling the story...”
    • The specifics of working with Michael K. Williams, Jharrel Jerome, and the real Five solidify the segment’s emotional weight.

Notable Quotes

• Ava DuVernay [76:57]: “[Williams] was so stunning. He took those boys under his wing...he would come on days when he wasn’t scheduled to work...He gave so much to it.”
• Ava DuVernay [79:25]: "[Jharrel Jerome]...really took that on...he became close to the real man and was able to then share him through his own body..."

7. The Pursuit of Craft: "A Wrinkle in Time," "Origin," and Artistic Integrity

• Ava details being offered “A Wrinkle in Time,” her only traditional Hollywood "director for hire" job, reflecting on navigating white-dominated spaces, managing expectations, and learning from both successes and perceived failures.

  • Ava DuVernay [63:27]: “One of the things that has really helped me through that is peeling off the pressure...Spielberg was just like, okay, should I just take out all my films that didn't do the numbers that they were supposed to?”

• The making of "Origin"—her adaptation of Isabel Wilkerson’s "Caste"—blends fiction with documentary research and personal journey. Ava shares the creative process, visual approach, and working globally and independently.

  • Ava DuVernay [88:28]: “Thank you for asking about Matt Lloyd. Matt Lloyd was my DP at the time...He worked with crews from around the world...He is, you know, giving me so much respect...”
  • On a memorable scene:
    • Ava DuVernay [94:58]: "If there's one or two things that I hear as I talk to people about origin, they say, the boy in the pool."
  • Reflecting on the film’s impact and hopes for its enduring place in culture.
    • Ava DuVernay [98:06]: “It just feels like a song...Even though that’s my least seen movie, I look at that movie and it’s like that is everything that I want to be doing...I did it. And I’m excited to see where that leads me.”

8. Defining Greatness

• The conversation closes with Ava’s definition of a phenomenal director, emphasizing the supremacy of the work’s impact and endurance.
  • Ava DuVernay [99:11]: “I think it’s the work...If the work is doing what it needs to do, saying what it needs to say, enduring...that's greatness...If you are a director who’s made even one thing that people will remember you for, that's greatness..."

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Early Freedom:

  “The time when nobody's looking and nobody cares...is the best time...revel in it.”
  —Ava DuVernay [05:34]

• On Collaboration:

  “He's probably the most important creative collaborator of my career.”
  —Ava DuVernay on Spencer Averick [07:17]

• On Representation:

  "To paint him as a saint is not historically accurate...To paint him as a real man, an ordinary man who did extraordinary things is accurate."
  —Ava DuVernay on MLK portrayal in "Selma" [44:08]

• On Legacy:

  “Every project I'm learning and I think that film [Origin] is the film that I've been on the set and felt the most guided and like, I wasn't struggling. It just feels like a song.”
  —Ava DuVernay [98:04]

• On Impact:

  “I think, you know, you look at filmmakers...that have, you know, two things, three things, five things that will stand the test of time, that will echo through the culture. That's what I strive to be...”
  —Ava DuVernay [101:09]

Timestamps for Significant Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |-------------|---------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:02–01:44 | Opening warmth and reflection on legacy | | 02:18–06:01 | Early documentary work and creative freedom | | 06:01–08:01 | Collaboration with Spencer Averick begins | | 08:01–15:48 | Making and casting "I Will Follow" | | 17:12–22:25 | Directing and thematics in "I Will Follow" | | 22:25–29:36 | "Middle of Nowhere": genesis, struggle, breakthrough | | 29:36–34:08 | First TV: "Scandal" and the birth of "Queen Sugar" | | 36:26–44:08 | The making and impact of "Selma" | | 53:04–56:50 | Purpose and reception of documentary "13th" | | 66:31–71:10 | Creating "When They See Us" | | 75:13–83:05 | On Michael K. Williams, Jharrel Jerome, and impact | | 86:48–98:06 | "Origin": process, vision, and metanarrative | | 99:11–101:25| Ava's definition of a phenomenal director |

Episode Essence

This episode is as much a masterclass in the art and challenge of legacy as it is a moving chronicle of Black creativity, tenacity, and love. Through laughter, vulnerability, and sharp analysis, Lena and Ava build a tapestry of what it means to not merely succeed, but to shift culture, elevate truth, and inspire generations—one project, one collaboration, one audacious leap at a time.

Ava DuVernay [98:52]:
“Some of the most game changing movies were sometimes missed at the moment in which they came out...That it wasn’t meant for the audience it was put in front of. It was meant for generations that hadn’t been born yet.”

Listen to the full episode for more behind-the-scenes insights, industry wisdom, and the joy of creative sisterhood.