Building a Legacy with Ava DuVernay

Summary

Legacy Talk with Lena Waithe

Episode: "Building a Legacy with Ava DuVernay"

Release Date: August 19, 2025
Host: Lena Waithe
Guest: Ava DuVernay

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Episode Overview

In this rich and candid conversation, Lena Waithe sits down with acclaimed filmmaker Ava DuVernay to reflect on DuVernay’s extraordinary career, her creative journey from indie documentaries to Hollywood features, and her commitment to storytelling that centers Black experiences and historical truth. The episode sheds light on the art and burden of legacy, the evolution of personal and professional identity, and the transformative power of choosing one’s own path in an often resistant industry.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Growth, Friendship, and Legacy

• Ava and Lena open with warmth and mutual appreciation, highlighting their long-standing friendship and evolution over the years. Lena acknowledges how Ava has changed, matured, and deepened her creative energy.
  • Ava DuVernay [00:13]: "I've seen you change in beautiful ways. You're not my child, but I remember you at a younger time...You had a different energy. And I think the energy has. It's matured and it's still vibrant, but it is matured. It's more. God, I don't know, it's is cooler."
• They joke about old memories, including Ava urging Lena to smile more in photos.

2. Early Work & Documentary Beginnings

• Lena lauds "This Is the Life" as one of her favorite documentaries, prompting Ava to discuss the film’s shoestring budget and DIY ethos.

  • Ava DuVernay [03:23]: “Check to check...I probably spent five grand, maybe seven grand, maybe...But it's hand. I love it because it's handmade. And it's probably one of my favorite things that I've ever made.”

• Ava underscores the creative freedom of early projects, unburdened by external expectations.

  • Ava DuVernay [05:34]: “The time when nobody's looking and nobody cares what you're doing is the best time...When the pressures start to come, it does change the chemistry and the vibe and the energy around the work.”

• The importance of key collaborators emerges, with Ava sharing the story of meeting editor Spencer Averick, whose audition on "This Is the Life" marked the start of a lifelong partnership.

  • Ava DuVernay [07:17]: "I'm barely paying you $4. But you're gonna audition? ...This boy cut this thing down so hard...he's probably the most important creative collaborator of my career."

3. Narrative Film Debuts: "I Will Follow" & "Middle of Nowhere"

• Lena reflects on her time as a PA for Ava’s first narrative film, "I Will Follow," and Ava recounts making the movie on a $50,000 budget in a single location, drawing from her real-life experience as a caregiver.

• The profound influence of casting director Aisha Coley is explored, especially in casting Sally Richardson-Whitfield and Omari Hardwick for "I Will Follow,” setting up themes Ava would revisit in future work: love, distance, and professional ambition.

  • Ava DuVernay [14:16]: “I had never directed actors...for her to step into that and say, I will do this...I'll be forever grateful to her.”

• "Middle of Nowhere," Ava's intended debut script, eventually became her “graduate thesis”—a $200,000 film that won the Directing Award at Sundance, making her the first Black woman to do so.

  • Ava DuVernay [27:16]: “Are you kidding? That has to be one of the most shocked moments of my actual whole life...That award was a big deal. And from there, things start to happen in terms of the next steps.”
  • On the impact: Ava DuVernay [29:36]: “It changed everything.”

Notable Quote

• Lena Waithe [29:16]: "Can't skip over it."
• Ava DuVernay: “Big deal. It was a big deal for me. It gave me as someone who didn't go to film school...so much.”

4. Transition to Television: "Scandal" and "Queen Sugar"

• Ava shares the challenges and lessons learned directing Shonda Rhimes’ "Scandal"—her first TV episodic assignment—including the lack of creative control and its role in shaping her approach to "Queen Sugar."

  • Ava DuVernay [32:27]: “The reason why I cried on set was because I did not have control. ...That’s where I made the decision. It's not happening again.”
  • On "Queen Sugar": She created an environment of artistic freedom for other women directors, imparting the chance to push back and claim agency.
  • Ava DuVernay [34:08]: “Sometimes you have to have someone tell you directly, you can do this.”

• Discussion of filmmaking "toys"— tools and resources only accessible at high budgets—sparks a reflection on how Black and indie filmmakers continually create greatness with fewer means.

5. Breaking Through: "Selma"

• “Selma” represents a defining moment—DuVernay was the seventh director on the film, brought in with the help of David Oyelowo, whose faith and advocacy proved instrumental.
  • Ava DuVernay [38:13]: “He tries to keep the film alive...he says, I just worked with this woman. She made a film that won Sundance for $200,000...if I can bring you another director who will make it for the $20 million, will you make it? Yes.”
  • On her approach: Ava centered King’s humanity and the crucial roles of women in the movement.
  • Ava DuVernay [44:08]: “To paint him as a saint is not historically accurate. To paint him as a real man, an ordinary man who did extraordinary things is accurate...”

Memorable Moment

• Ava DuVernay [41:34]: “I felt in pocket. I felt I had done enough things at that point that...I know how to do it, I know how to get it, I know how to do it...I'm working with subject matter that nobody can tell me anything about this.”

6. Global Reach & Social Impact: "13th" and "When They See Us"

• The discussion shifts to Ava’s return to documentary with "13th," emphasizing its global resonance and role as a catalyst for public consciousness about the carceral system.

  • Ava DuVernay [53:04]: “It was my first film where I thought, oh, I can learn while I'm making it and I can share what I learn...It was about people understanding prison is just a place where bad people go. ...studies done that the thought about prison has changed since 13th...”

• Lena draws thematic connections between Ava’s works, such as her use of hip hop lyrics and historical context.

• When They See Us: Ava describes being approached by Raymond Santana of the Exonerated Five and feeling a personal and historic calling to narrate their story.

  • Ava DuVernay [66:31]: “I always had been fascinated by that case...Their story was so classic Hero's journey...But people didn't know the back half...it became a calling.”

  • On impact and narrative:

    • Ava DuVernay [71:10]: “Filmmakers, artists, musicians...It is our job...to keep history alive. ...Make a version that they do watch...We have to keep iterating and keep telling the story...”
    • The specifics of working with Michael K. Williams, Jharrel Jerome, and the real Five solidify the segment’s emotional weight.

Notable Quotes

• Ava DuVernay [76:57]: “[Williams] was so stunning. He took those boys under his wing...he would come on days when he wasn’t scheduled to work...He gave so much to it.”
• Ava DuVernay [79:25]: "[Jharrel Jerome]...really took that on...he became close to the real man and was able to then share him through his own body..."

7. The Pursuit of Craft: "A Wrinkle in Time," "Origin," and Artistic Integrity

• Ava details being offered “A Wrinkle in Time,” her only traditional Hollywood "director for hire" job, reflecting on navigating white-dominated spaces, managing expectations, and learning from both successes and perceived failures.

  • Ava DuVernay [63:27]: “One of the things that has really helped me through that is peeling off the pressure...Spielberg was just like, okay, should I just take out all my films that didn't do the numbers that they were supposed to?”

• The making of "Origin"—her adaptation of Isabel Wilkerson’s "Caste"—blends fiction with documentary research and personal journey. Ava shares the creative process, visual approach, and working globally and independently.

  • Ava DuVernay [88:28]: “Thank you for asking about Matt Lloyd. Matt Lloyd was my DP at the time...He worked with crews from around the world...He is, you know, giving me so much respect...”
  • On a memorable scene:
    • Ava DuVernay [94:58]: "If there's one or two things that I hear as I talk to people about origin, they say, the boy in the pool."
  • Reflecting on the film’s impact and hopes for its enduring place in culture.
    • Ava DuVernay [98:06]: “It just feels like a song...Even though that’s my least seen movie, I look at that movie and it’s like that is everything that I want to be doing...I did it. And I’m excited to see where that leads me.”

8. Defining Greatness

• The conversation closes with Ava’s definition of a phenomenal director, emphasizing the supremacy of the work’s impact and endurance.
  • Ava DuVernay [99:11]: “I think it’s the work...If the work is doing what it needs to do, saying what it needs to say, enduring...that's greatness...If you are a director who’s made even one thing that people will remember you for, that's greatness..."

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Early Freedom:

  “The time when nobody's looking and nobody cares...is the best time...revel in it.”
  —Ava DuVernay [05:34]

• On Collaboration:

  “He's probably the most important creative collaborator of my career.”
  —Ava DuVernay on Spencer Averick [07:17]

• On Representation:

  "To paint him as a saint is not historically accurate...To paint him as a real man, an ordinary man who did extraordinary things is accurate."
  —Ava DuVernay on MLK portrayal in "Selma" [44:08]

• On Legacy:

  “Every project I'm learning and I think that film [Origin] is the film that I've been on the set and felt the most guided and like, I wasn't struggling. It just feels like a song.”
  —Ava DuVernay [98:04]

• On Impact:

  “I think, you know, you look at filmmakers...that have, you know, two things, three things, five things that will stand the test of time, that will echo through the culture. That's what I strive to be...”
  —Ava DuVernay [101:09]

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Timestamps for Significant Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |-------------|---------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:02–01:44 | Opening warmth and reflection on legacy | | 02:18–06:01 | Early documentary work and creative freedom | | 06:01–08:01 | Collaboration with Spencer Averick begins | | 08:01–15:48 | Making and casting "I Will Follow" | | 17:12–22:25 | Directing and thematics in "I Will Follow" | | 22:25–29:36 | "Middle of Nowhere": genesis, struggle, breakthrough | | 29:36–34:08 | First TV: "Scandal" and the birth of "Queen Sugar" | | 36:26–44:08 | The making and impact of "Selma" | | 53:04–56:50 | Purpose and reception of documentary "13th" | | 66:31–71:10 | Creating "When They See Us" | | 75:13–83:05 | On Michael K. Williams, Jharrel Jerome, and impact | | 86:48–98:06 | "Origin": process, vision, and metanarrative | | 99:11–101:25| Ava's definition of a phenomenal director |

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Episode Essence

This episode is as much a masterclass in the art and challenge of legacy as it is a moving chronicle of Black creativity, tenacity, and love. Through laughter, vulnerability, and sharp analysis, Lena and Ava build a tapestry of what it means to not merely succeed, but to shift culture, elevate truth, and inspire generations—one project, one collaboration, one audacious leap at a time.

Ava DuVernay [98:52]:
“Some of the most game changing movies were sometimes missed at the moment in which they came out...That it wasn’t meant for the audience it was put in front of. It was meant for generations that hadn’t been born yet.”

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Listen to the full episode for more behind-the-scenes insights, industry wisdom, and the joy of creative sisterhood.

Transcript

[Lena Waithe]

Lemonada first. Thank you for being here. I appreciate it.

[Ava DuVernay]

Thank you for having me. Thank you for having me. Why am I chuckling?

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah.

[Ava DuVernay]

Because I love you.

[Lena Waithe]

I love you too.

[Ava DuVernay]

And because I have seen you change in beautiful ways. You're not my child, but I remember you at a younger time.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah.

[Ava DuVernay]

And twenties. In your twenties, I really remember. And so when I think of you and when I see you, I am dealing with that memory of you. But that's not, you know, because you cool. You know what I mean? You cool. You talk, you know, low. You know, you have people who look up to you. But in my mind I just remember a little quirky, a little. A lot of like bright eyes, like always brilliant, but just you had a different energy. And I think the energy has. It's matured and it's still vibrant, but it is matured. It's more. God, I don't know, it's is cooler. You weren't nerdy. You were always cool. But yeah, it's like all come down into this kind of level. And it used to be out here like this. Do you remember? I do. And that's how I. So when I think Lena, that's what I think. Remember there was a whole period, it was like a three year period where I actually called you and was like, why are you not smiling in pictures?

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah, you still do that.

[Ava DuVernay]

What's going on? Like, why can't you smile? Well, I'm just, you know, just.

[Lena Waithe]

I don't even recall what the answer was.

[Ava DuVernay]

It was like, I don't recall the answer either. But the answer was not starting to smile, though. Legacy, oh, legacy. Oh, that's a lot to watch in one sitting. And they all treated me like a real director when I felt like, you know, fraud. Every piece of the journey helps with the step. I complained. There were times where I was just like, I am on deadline for a script every day of my life. Is it ever gonna end? And you're getting pickup after pickup. I mean, what I wouldn't give now, right, to have it back. Legacy, oh, legacy.

[Lena Waithe]

I was happy to go back and re watch this movie because I used to watch it all the time. I watched it again and again and again. And I think it was something because there was like old stock footage. It was something I wasn't aware of. And I'm a person that just likes, like old docs. I love Hoop Dreams. I love Paris is Burning. And I'm not gonna say this lightly, but I put this to me in the list of my favorite documentaries of all time is this is the Life.

[Ava DuVernay]

Wow. I did not know that. I did not even know you'd even seen this Is the Life.

[Lena Waithe]

I've talked to you about it back in the day. It's fine. I love that documentary. Really, I do. And I think it's because it was. It is very much a beginning. I love the bold choices, I love the drawing. I love you highlighting the lyrics, and I really love the old footage. I would ask you a very specific question to begin. What was the budget for that documentary, if you can remember?

[Ava DuVernay]

Check to check.

[Lena Waithe]

Ok.

[Ava DuVernay]

I mean, you know, I probably spent five grand.

[Lena Waithe]

Five grand?

[Ava DuVernay]

Yeah. Check to check.

[Lena Waithe]

What made you have to tell that story?

[Ava DuVernay]

Well, first of all, I'm delighted that you even, you know, considered it to be included in these questions and watched it and know it like that. I wanted to start making films, and I didn't have enough money to make a film with actors. First of all, I didn't know how to make a film with actors. I didn't know how to make anything. And. But I knew that a documentary was cheaper, you know, And I was thinking, what can I make a doc on? That was something that I could be passionate about. And so when I decided to make a doc about my friends and everyone started giving me their old tapes, and then one friend, Omid, had all the recordings from Every Good Life, and brothers and sisters were pulling tapes out from under the beds. I was driving around. People had things. Garages. Yeah. Photos, pictures. Someone telling me, oh, someone told me, oh, no. You know, this kid that collected that was in there shooting, I was like, who? They were like this kid named Keen. I was like, who's Keen? I didn't remember this guy. He was in Japan. He had taken his things to Japan. I got it from him. And so I had all this great, great old footage. And then I got to go around and shoot the homies. You know what I mean? Film them. And by that time, I was a publicist, and they were proud of me for just having a job where I was a publicist and inviting them to a premiere here or there. And so everyone was. All those interviews were done mostly in my office at the time, a few out in the field, but basically it was put together so handmade. The cinematographer also did all the graphics, you know what I mean? Like, it was just, like I said, five, seven grand, maybe, Maybe. But it's hand. I love it because it's handmade. And it's probably one of my favorite things that I've ever made a. The experience of doing it because no one cared and no one was looking. My first few films are my freest, most fun experiences because no one cared. That's why I always tell people the time when nobody's looking and nobody cares what you're doing is the best time. Because when the pressures start to come, it does change the chemistry and the vibe and the energy around the work. Our job is to try to hold the good energy. But the early stuff, when no one gives a damn what you're doing, revel in it. So thank you for the reminder.

[Lena Waithe]

It's also a place where you meet a very important collaborator, which is Spencer Averitt.

[Ava DuVernay]

First of all, how am I interviewing an editor? I don't even know what to ask an editor. I'm like, let me interview you as a director. I don't even know what I'm doing. But we met at a little place on La Brea, and I'm trying to interview him, and he walks in, and I remember we sat down. I was just like, so you want to be an editor?

[Lena Waithe]

Wow, Classic. A book.

[Ava DuVernay]

Yeah, it's classic. He said, yeah, I want to be an editor. I said, that's what you actually want to do with your life, is be an editor? He's like, yes. I said, a documentary editor? He said, actually, yes. That's what I went to school for. That's what I want to do. I said, so you're telling me that you're waiting tables? He was waiting tables all the time. Of course you're waiting tables and doing what in the evenings. He's like, documentaries. I was just like, I couldn't believe that this is what he wanted to do because he was so funny and, you know, cute and, you know, just like a cute, cute young white guy out here to be a documentary editor. So I was like, okay. So. And so I said, well, let me the nerve of this. I said, I'm gonna give you a few pieces of footage.

[Lena Waithe]

Oh, okay. You touched on.

[Ava DuVernay]

I dare.

[Lena Waithe]

First of all, I'm not paying auditioning for you.

[Ava DuVernay]

I'm barely paying you $4. But you're gonna audition? Yes. I'm give you a little bit of footage and see what you can do with it. The audacity. And he was eager, said, great. I would love to show you what I can do. This boy cut this thing down so hard. I was just like, I've never. In maybe three hours, he took this footage and created a segment that is actually in the movie and just changed the whole thing of the movie. And from there, he Did. I will follow. Middle of The Selma wrinkle, 13th. When they see Queen Sugar, like, literally, this one guy has been. He's probably the most important creative collaborator of my career.

[Lena Waithe]

I'm excited to talk about. Finally, I will follow. Do you want to, once and for all, tell me what my title was on that movie? Pa Runner, Assistant to your assistant.

[Ava DuVernay]

What does it say on the credits?

[Lena Waithe]

Probably says production assistant.

[Ava DuVernay]

I think it says something more than that. All I know is every night when I went home, I was walking out with Lena.

[Lena Waithe]

Oh, that's true.

[Ava DuVernay]

I mean, like, so often closing the gate on that house. Cause it all took place on one house in Topanga Canyon. That was the way to make a film for cheap was I had heard, stay in one location and don't move. So I was trying to think of an idea for a movie. I remember asking my mom, and she said, well, why don't you think about a time in your life when you've had to stay in one location and not move? And I thought about the time when I was a caregiver for my aunt as she was dying of cancer and we were in that house. So I decided to write the script about that time. And so the film takes place all in one day in that house. And it allowed me to. I just found it. I mean, we found a house in Topanga Canyon and we just shot there. And I remember you did everything from. You know, there's a picture of you. I don't even know how you're balancing that many coffees.

[Lena Waithe]

Oh, yeah, no, the coffees, too.

[Ava DuVernay]

There's coffee on your lap. There's coffee. There's coffee in the back.

[Lena Waithe]

Lane is driving.

[Ava DuVernay]

Yeah. Somebody's driving. Yeah. Yeah. Might be Tulane. So with a smile, just like, okay. Happy to be there. Everything from closing the gate to getting the talent out of. There's no trailer out of the bench that they're waiting on, the room that they were staying in. You were everything to me on that film. There was nobody else. There were like nine of us. And you did whatever was asked of you.

[Lena Waithe]

It was an amazing.

[Ava DuVernay]

Thank you.

[Lena Waithe]

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[Ava DuVernay]

Yeah.

[Lena Waithe]

How did you two work together? I know you talked about it being a small crew, very small cast. I think one of the most significant things I've kind of learned about Ayesha Coley's career is that she's really good at helping directors find their, I think, important muse. I'm curious to know what that collaboration was like and how she found you your muse for this movie, which was obviously Sally Richardson Whitfield.

[Ava DuVernay]

Well, Ayesha Coley is another nod to Gina Prince Bythewood. She connected me with Ayesha and who was just very nurturing and has continued to be nurturing of the newer director, you know. And so Aisha has cast iron every single thing that I've done. I know anything that you know that I've done up to origin. It's been cast by Aisha Coley. But yeah, the Sally piece of it.

[Lena Waithe]

I know a little bit about that journey, you trying to find an actress. But I was curious what that experience was like for you at the time because it's your first narrative film. You have to find someone. You're gonna have the camera on pretty much the whole movie. That's right. And also that person in a way, which I know a little bit about, casting someone that's a bit of a reflection of Myself and something I went through. So relationship between the casting director and you is very personal because you're looking for something that is really hard to.

[Ava DuVernay]

Yeah, really hard to do. And then also you had. On top of that, this film was made for $50,000. Five zero. I recall you got two of those dollars. Okay, maybe. Maybe 150. Yeah.

[Lena Waithe]

Perhaps Sam got his.

[Ava DuVernay]

Maybe. So literally, it was made for so little money. So to find any actors of note at that point, it's not even like, who's the right vibe. It's like, who's willing, you know, who's willing to come on a journey with someone that they don't really know in this capacity. I barely knew Sally. Even as a publicist, I knew a lot of people as a publicist.

[Lena Waithe]

I was aware of who she was. If you recall, you came into the office and I said, I know you.

[Ava DuVernay]

Were very aware and very robust with.

[Lena Waithe]

Your response from a low down dirty shame to the great white hype to Pasiphy.

[Ava DuVernay]

Yes.

[Lena Waithe]

You remember that?

[Ava DuVernay]

I remember the response very much so.

[Lena Waithe]

I was like, yo, yo, we just.

[Ava DuVernay]

Won, but we do it.

[Lena Waithe]

We just hit the lotto. Let's go.

[Ava DuVernay]

But I knew a lot of people from publicity, but I did not know her, you know, well, like, I knew Blairs in the movie.

[Lena Waithe]

Were you surprised that I knew her credits?

[Ava DuVernay]

No, not the credits. Of course I knew her credits. I'm talking about as a person.

[Lena Waithe]

Got it.

[Ava DuVernay]

Like, I did not know her personally.

[Lena Waithe]

Okay. Was that a requirement for you?

[Ava DuVernay]

No, because it wasn't like she was a homie who just came and did this favor for me.

[Lena Waithe]

Correct.

[Ava DuVernay]

Like, the reason why it makes it so significant is that she did. She knew I was a publicist in town. But the fact that she gave up herself and came to do this movie was like 14 days, no money. Craft services was a bag of Doritos on a plastic table. You know what I mean? Like, I probably wouldn't have that. You went and got and arranged as best you could.

[Lena Waithe]

But basically, it was her first narrative film.

[Ava DuVernay]

It was my first narrative film. I had never directed actors, you know, in anything like that. Like, it was very new. And so for her to step into that and say, I will do this. Yeah, I'll be forever grateful to her. And she did. She was able to come in and embody this character that, you know, was about caregiving and about kind of being, you know, between two worlds. When you're caregiving for someone who is dying, you have one foot in the living and one foot in the dying. In the dying. And on this particular day that the script chronicles, it's the day that the caregiver is moving out of the house that she shared with the woman who died, her aunt. And I'd been through that and I just kind of needed. I needed something from that character. But when you are making something for nothing, you kind of got to take what you can get. And the glory of that film is what I got was perfect. And it was Sally, you know what I mean? Like, the gift, you know, that, that. That she gave me in that was. Was fantastic. And. And so I didn't know Omari either. Didn't know him from Adam. Didn't know him from Adam. I didn't know Blair was a. Was a friend. And so he was my client. So imagine asking your client to be in your movie as a director. I mean, how dare the audacity. Why.

[Lena Waithe]

Why not?

[Ava DuVernay]

Why are you doing. You're doing movies now? I was embarrassed. I remember asking him to tell him I was doing a movie and would he come. And I mean, in pure Blair, debonair, elegant, class act fashion, of course. And he came and they all treated me like a real director, you know what I mean? When I felt like, you know, a fraud. Hmm. I didn't know what I was doing. You know what I mean? I literally didn't know what I was doing. The only thing I knew, I didn't know nothing about lenses. I didn't know anything about how to shoot. Only thing I knew was how to talk to the actor. And that is since then, I found that most emerging directors and new directors have problems with that. I struggled with all the other stuff, did not have problems talking to the actors because I was a publicist. That's all I did was talk to the actor. And the way to talk to the actor is just demystified. Like, I was not afraid of them. Many directors are somewhat afraid of their actor and how to be a part of their process. But having worked with so many actors as a publicist, you know, the main thing is fear. They're afraid.

[Lena Waithe]

Well, what's interesting is I've picked up on that. I mean, in the last three days, have watched really heart wrenching, stirring, vulnerable performances. How do you get that from. From an actor? Through communication with them on set.

[Ava DuVernay]

I mean, during. I will follow it was just intuitive because it was basically my story. And so I remember the quiet of the house, the sadness of moving out of a house that I shared with someone who's no longer there. All of that needed to be kind of memorialized within the scene. So that was very intuitive. Moving on to the later things. And up till now, it's just a lot of it is the pacing in the editing, but also just allowing the actors to have the room to do their thing. I mean, if it's moving too fast, you lose something. That's not how we really are in real life. When we're talking to each other, there's the awkward pause, There's a moment where we reflect. There's a thing, the moment where we don't quite know what to say. All of that, you want to make sure, is in there. And so you have to let the actors know that they can take the time. We have time for you to do your thing.

[Lena Waithe]

That's really enlightening, I think, because I might be a little bit of the opposite. I do like a paced up scene. I do like the quick, quick, quick back and forth.

[Ava DuVernay]

Like a Sorkin style, maybe, but also.

[Lena Waithe]

Grew up on, you know, sitcom tv.

[Ava DuVernay]

Yeah.

[Lena Waithe]

And so. But what I find in your work is that you're not afraid to take your time with a scene, with a moment, with an emotion. And I think that to me is. Is very much the beginning of your signature.

[Ava DuVernay]

Well, thank you. I appreciate that.

[Lena Waithe]

Can you talk to me a little bit about directing Sally and Omari in those scenes? Cause those were some of my favorite moments in the movie. And it's a bit of a surprise. It's a bit of a reveal of the character. That's something that we weren't aware of. And the way you kind of film relationship and love, it can be very intimate. But there's also sometimes between the two people, which I keep seeing as something that keeps coming up, which is what you want to see about a love story. There's a conflict. There's a thing that's keeping them from just existing as they should. And that is very much the beginning of that for you and your work. And I was watching it on set and in real time, but I was curious for you. You had to write it, you had to direct it, and you had to give it a vision, and you and Spencer had to cut it. What were you trying to tell us about the character and that choice on the page?

[Ava DuVernay]

About Momari?

[Lena Waithe]

No, about Sally.

[Ava DuVernay]

About Sally?

[Lena Waithe]

Yes. Well, her character.

[Ava DuVernay]

Yeah, it was autobiographical. It was really. You know, in the scene, she says, you know, that she's chosen her professional life over her romantic life. And she says to him at the time, I have some time now. You know what I mean? Like, I want to make time for you. And basically, spoiler alert, it's too late. He's moved on. And so, yeah, I mean, that whole film was really autobiographical. And putting the two of them in the scene, there's not much you need to do. She's dropped dead gorgeous. He's drop dead handsome. All I had to do was put him in a boy's extra small shirt.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah.

[Ava DuVernay]

I remember trying to pull the shirt over the muscles at the time.

[Lena Waithe]

You had a foot injury at the time, too.

[Ava DuVernay]

You did have a good memory, Lena. But do you remember us trying to pull the shirt? Like, I remember being in the.

[Lena Waithe]

In the couple handsome guys wearing some.

[Ava DuVernay]

Extra medium boys, extra small, pulling it over, and I was just like, the tightness. I want this. These muscles to be popping out of the shirt. And he was just like a. My circulation. I said, it'll be okay. We're gonna be done in just an hour.

[Lena Waithe]

So you weren't surprised when Power happened?

[Ava DuVernay]

You just like, oh, yeah, I wasn't. Because he's so. Yeah, he was so charismatic.

[Lena Waithe]

Well, now we will move to the middle of nowhere.

[Ava DuVernay]

Another Omari. True.

[Lena Waithe]

Yes.

[Ava DuVernay]

Omari returns also in that Boys extras medium.

[Lena Waithe]

Yes. You know, we also meet Emiyati, who.

[Ava DuVernay]

I love the great.

[Lena Waithe]

Yes. Who's now a Reasonable doubt killing it. And also, it's the beginning of another collaboration of you meeting someone.

[Ava DuVernay]

David.

[Lena Waithe]

David Oyelowo. I remember being at LA Film Festival for the premiere of Middle of Nowhere. Yeah, that was a premiere. I'm so curious about what you wanted to say about who you were as a filmmaker with that movie.

[Ava DuVernay]

That was the first script I ever wrote. I Will Follow was the second script I wrote.

[Lena Waithe]

Correct. I am aware of that.

[Ava DuVernay]

Middle Noah was the first one. Didn't have the money, didn't know how to make that, so wrote a script that was all in one location that was. I will follow. Middle of Nowhere was the one that I wanted to make. It was the. The script that I had applied to the Sundance labs with and been rejected over and over. It was the script that I was asking people to read that was like, my heart's like, what I really wanted to do.

[Lena Waithe]

Is it fair to say you wanted Middle of Nowhere to be your debut?

[Ava DuVernay]

Yeah, I did. I did, but I couldn't do it, so I was able to do it next. And I remember that being the second film and saying, this is the one that has to. You know, this is the one where I'll be thinking about. And I'm so grateful for the first one.

[Lena Waithe]

I was gonna say, you kinda Got the kinks out.

[Ava DuVernay]

I did. You know, and so when I was just trying to hang on by bare knuckles on that one, like, that was a $50,000 movie. Middle of Nowhere was a $200,000 movie. Still Crazy low budget, but.

[Lena Waithe]

But I will follow was kind of practice.

[Ava DuVernay]

It was practice. It was my film school.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah.

[Ava DuVernay]

It was my film school.

[Lena Waithe]

I got to watch you go through film school.

[Ava DuVernay]

You did.

[Lena Waithe]

And then you would say, middle of Nowhere is your graduate thesis. Yeah, graduate thesis.

[Ava DuVernay]

Yes, yes, yes. So, yeah. No. And so making that, I felt like I was on a real movie set. I was making my second film. I had an actor that I'd worked with already. Like, this is my actor I work with already. And then I had David, who was kind of becoming a big deal. He was in Lincoln. He just worked with Spielberg. He was in Rise of the Planet of the Apes. He was in big movies. And then this Imiazzi. This, like, her face, you know, it's just. And I remember auditioning her and thinking, oh, she's a star, and nobody knows it yet.

[Lena Waithe]

And just you and Aisha Coley.

[Ava DuVernay]

This is another Aisha Coley. This is Aisha Coley. Yep.

[Lena Waithe]

What was that conversation like when you guys.

[Ava DuVernay]

With Imianzi.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah.

[Ava DuVernay]

Oh, first all Emianzi. I remember just thinking, wow, what has she been in? Like, how do we not know her? And Aisha saying something like, she's new. Like, she's just starting and just thinking, like, wow. Wow. There are people out there that are this good who just haven't. We haven't seen them yet. And this will be her movie. She's in every frame of this movie. There's no part of this movie where she's not in it. And it was such a big deal to me. This was my queen's script. Like, this was the one. It was either gonna be this one, or nothing was gonna work. And to hand that over to someone who hadn't done it before. But I had such confidence in her because she was just. She was her. You know, she was fantastic. And so I've been happy to watch her work consistently over the years. I still think that she is a superstar.

[Lena Waithe]

The collaboration with you and David is really a beginning. You don't quite know that yet.

[Ava DuVernay]

Yes.

[Lena Waithe]

But what was it like working with him for the first time?

[Ava DuVernay]

It was incredible. The way that he came onto the project was incredible. Have you heard the story?

[Lena Waithe]

I have not.

[Ava DuVernay]

David. I did not pursue David for the film. David pursued the film. David was sitting next to a man on a plane.

[Lena Waithe]

This Sounds like David, but no idea.

[Ava DuVernay]

Okay, David Oyelowo is going back to do looping. Additional dialogue recording for Planet of the Apes. Rise of the Planet of the Apes. He's flying from LAX to Toronto to do this. Of course he's on the plane next to white guy. White guy is like, oh, my gosh, is this you that I'm watching on my iPad? The guy's watching a series that David was in in the uk. So, like, yeah, that's me. They strike up a conversation. The guy says, you know, you're in the film industry. Let me ask you. My friend's asking me to invest in this film. Is it a good idea to invest in independent film? David's like, well, not. Not really, but what's the film? He's like, well, it's being made by this new black woman filmmaker. David's like, tell me more. The guy takes out the script from middle of nowhere, hands it to David. David's like, I just saw her on CNN talking about her new distribution model. I just saw her. I saw her on cnn. The guy's like, okay, you. Sorry, can I read the script? He takes the script of. The guy reads the script, calls me. My number's on the front of the script. I have no representation, no agent, no nothing. It's just my cell phone number on the front. David calls me from the airport, says, my name is David Oyelowo. I've just read your script. A, I told this random man he should invest with your movie. B, if you ever would consider me for any of the parts in this movie, I would love to be in it. It's a beautiful script. And I was like, wow, you're someone I've admired. I've been watching you kind of make your way through the movies. And, you know, this is really kind of you to call. It gives me a lot of confidence. But I just want to say this is kind of not how this works. And he was like, oh, well, how should I work? I was like, I'm so happy you called me, but once. Your agents will never let you be in this place. Movie. It's a $200,000 movie. Like, it's barely. Like, we're barely making it. And he said with his posh British accent, well, I. With all respect to. I just want to let you know, I don't work for my agents. My agents work for me.

[Lena Waithe]

Come on. Hello.

[Ava DuVernay]

Hi. And if you would have me, I would love to be in your movie. And I said, okay, we'll see what happens when I Call CAA on Monday. And that was it. And that's how it started. And he's continued to move like that very much. You know, a king. A king. He came into this business like having a full sense of his own self worth and has moved that way ever since and has taught me a lot.

[Lena Waithe]

Wow. Well, I remember seeing the movie for the first time. You know, I think I had. Yeah, I hadn't really seen any of it. I hadn't. And I obviously remembered I will follow and knew that movie really well. But I was really excited for you to be making your second film, which is a very hard thing to do. And you obviously willed that movie into existence. Did you feel a great sense of validation with that one?

[Ava DuVernay]

Yeah, I think even more than the reviews, it was Sundance. I had wanted to be in Sundance. That was at the time the mark of distinction for an independent filmmaker. And I really wanted to get into a lab to anything. And so when Sherry Freelow, Shari Frilo got me, called me one day and told me that I was in. We were in. I thought, what is a sidebar? What did we get into?

[Lena Waithe]

Competition.

[Ava DuVernay]

Dramatic competition.

[Lena Waithe]

Big deal.

[Ava DuVernay]

Big deal at the time. Big deal at the time. And ended up winning an award there.

[Lena Waithe]

First black woman to ever do so.

[Ava DuVernay]

Yes, yes.

[Lena Waithe]

Can't skip over it.

[Ava DuVernay]

Big deal. It was a big deal for me. It gave me as someone who didn't go to film school and was doing all this that we're talking about in my mid-30s and had had another career that was actually still going at the time. I was still all this time working as a publicist for clients to pay the bills. To pay the bills. I had an agency, I had offices, I had employees, I had full campaigns for studios. All that time, all those clients never knew that I was making movies.

[Lena Waithe]

So you had a day job, no reps. And a job, no reps and a movie that got into Sundance for us dramatic competition. And I've been on the jury for that. And it's a high honor to watch those films because, as you know, it helps tell us where movies are headed for that. Not sometimes that year, but sometimes just in general. What was it like winning best director at Sundance and being the first black woman to do so?

[Ava DuVernay]

I was. I was astounded. I was just happy to be in it. So I really had not contemplated anything happening beyond that. It was the year of Beasts of the Southern Wild. And I remember, you know, you go into these festivals and they, especially with Sundance, there's like, you know, a darling.

[Lena Waithe]

Oh, for sure.

[Ava DuVernay]

You know, there's these. You've been through it. There's the ones everybody's talking about. And our film was nowhere on the hot at Sundance list. We were not there.

[Lena Waithe]

It's a quiet movie, it's bright, a black, you know, cast, all the things. Got a new ish director. I say new ish because it wasn't your debut movie, but. So were you really surprised when you won Best Director?

[Ava DuVernay]

Are you kidding? That has to be one of the most shocked moments of my actual whole life. I remember I could not believe it. That award was a big deal. And from there, things start to happen in terms of. Of the next steps.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah. I was going to ask you, like, how would you say middle of nowhere changed your life?

[Ava DuVernay]

It changed everything.

[Lena Waithe]

I do want to talk about the fact that you went from making movies to doing television. And the first television show you direct is none other than a juggernaut at that point. Season three.

[Ava DuVernay]

Yeah.

[Lena Waithe]

Scandal.

[Ava DuVernay]

Yes.

[Lena Waithe]

What was your Scandal experience like?

[Ava DuVernay]

Well, that was a time when TV was starting to. I think TV is. Is the most popular American medium right now. People are really embracing. There was a time where it's like, you either did film or you did tv. Film was this. And TV was for everybody else and had its own beautiful culture, but film was considered higher. That's all changed. And now you find, luckily for us, our story dictates where it wants to be. You know what I mean? As opposed to the other way around. We gotta fit in these boxes. So we came along at a time where, you know, there is not that hierarchy of genres is a little less. And that was. Shonda was right in that space with Scandal. You know, this is before the limited series starts to take off and streaming starts to take off. Right. And so you're still watching the networks, and Scandal was one of the last huge runaway hits. And so your episode is called Vermont.

[Lena Waithe]

Is for Lovers too.

[Ava DuVernay]

First of all, I think I actually had the best episode.

[Lena Waithe]

In the episode, there's the mom's eating her own arm.

[Ava DuVernay]

The mom's eating her own arm. You get to see the mom. Candy Alexander, get it in.

[Lena Waithe]

Papa Pope is in there as well.

[Ava DuVernay]

Joe Morton is getting it in.

[Lena Waithe]

There's a very intense sex scene.

[Ava DuVernay]

There's a sex scene in it. They go to Vermont. There's a helicopter.

[Lena Waithe]

There's a helicopter happening. There's queer domesticity.

[Ava DuVernay]

Yes, there sure is. There's a lot of good.

[Lena Waithe]

It's a lot going on.

[Ava DuVernay]

Good living in that episode. I remember getting it like, wow, this.

[Lena Waithe]

Is a good One, what was that experience for you? Juggling all of those things that you just talked about, but also doing it on an established show where you kind of can't do your thing because the mission is to make sure that every episode kind of looks like the one before it.

[Ava DuVernay]

Yeah. Yeah. I did not know that. That style. I had no idea what I was walking into. Tom Verica, who continues to be a part of Shondaland, is such a huge, huge part of that company and the cultural phenomenon that they are, was the producing director. And so he walked me through it as best he could. He's juggling three episodes and he's directing his own, but he was fantastic when he could be. But there was no way to prepare for what the episodic director could and could not do. And having produced, written, and directed my own, I guess at that point, it had been four films, two docs, and two narratives. I was not aware of how the thing works, but I remember crying on set.

[Lena Waithe]

Wow.

[Ava DuVernay]

And I remember, you should never cry on set. So I went away, okay. And I just. I got the cry out. And then I came back and I remember, like, I've made four films and I've never cried on the set. Like, I've never. No one's made me cry on a set because I'm putting together my own world, my own group of people. Not to say I never had any heart issues with guys on sets. That always happens, but I'd never been so. And the reason why I cried on set was because I did not have control. I had to eat it. You know what I mean? I had to. This is not my thing. You know what I mean? And I think from that is where I made the decision. It's not happening again. And I remember, you know, Queen Sugar comes out of the lack of control and helplessness I felt on Scandal. And I say this with no, please hear me. They were extraordinary people. Shonda was extraordinary. Verica was extraordinary. Carrie was extraordinary. So many people there. But there was something that happened where, you know, it was uncomfortable and unkind and there was nothing I could do. You know what I mean? Like, I am a director for hire on that set. And so I gotta keep going. I gotta eat it, and I gotta keep going. And so it really influenced the way that I shaped Queen Sugar and what I wanted those women's experiences to be. And I wanted to give to them what Shonda had given to me, which was an opportunity. Take it and run with it. And when I say experiences, one of the things that I would Tell the women on Queen Sugar is someone might say something that you don't. You know what I mean? Like, you don't abide by or you don't want to do. You know, you can talk back. You know what I mean? Like, you can say the thing back. Like, you can push back. This is your space, this is your time. This is your episode. This will have your name on it. And just to give them that room. Not that I didn't have it on Scandal, but I didn't feel like I could do it. I didn't have enough confidence to do it. Sometimes you have to have someone tell you directly you can do this. And so, yeah, but it was also an opportunity to play with all the big toys. I had never shot with two cameras. I'm shooting with one camera through all four of those films. And so to have two cameras, to have a crane, to have, you know, I mean, I hadn't had more than a jib arm. A jib arm. I mean, that just did. This is a jib arm, y'. All. It goes like that. I remember first time I saw a Jim Harvard shot on I Will Follow, I was like, ooh, look at that. They just did that. That's all we could afford. I was like, we saving that. That's a special. This is a special shot. And so I remember on Scandal, I got. There was a crane day, and they rolled out the crane, and I was just like, it goes like this and like that. And you forget, as a director, the toys, you know what I mean? Like, what we get to shoot with. You know, we look at films by women and people of color and people who are on the periphery of the Hollywood machine. And, you know, you look at it and say, well, these films are not as good as these films, right? Some people will judge it. People forget about the toys and the tools. There's only so much you can do if your jib arm goes like that, you know what I mean? You have to make films about people talking in rooms. You are not going to be able to make a film about the atomic bomb maker, you know what I mean? Because you can't get out and move it all around. You know what I mean? Like, there's. There's. That's why when you see Daughters of the Dust, when you see Sankofa, when you see some of these films that are. That our legendary filmmakers made with such limited means, you know, it should allow us to expand our minds to say, you know, even with limited tools, these things are possible. But it is. It's hard to see when you just don't have the tools that the other guys have.

[Lena Waithe]

This one, I don't know if I saw early. I went to a premiere, I think, at the Egyptian. This was a really big moment, I think, in your career, but I think for all of us, truly was it welcomed. How does Selma come into your life? I know David Oyelowo has a lot to do with it, I believe, but I'm just curious how this very godly movie, as I want to call it, manifested in your life.

[Ava DuVernay]

Thank you for the kind words. And your memory is crazy, because you did see it at the Egyptian. Because you were on my premiere list, because that was the world premiere at afi. The Egyptian.

[Lena Waithe]

All right.

[Ava DuVernay]

Incredible memory, Lena. Selma was an explosion in my career and life. And David Oyelowo, who had worked with the Middle of Nowhere, had been cast by Lee Daniels on Selma. Lee Daniels was the sixth filmmaker on Selma. I was the seventh filmmaker on Selma when Lee left the picture because it did not have enough budget. He is an experienced filmmaker, and he knows $20 million is not enough to make this movie. It's the period film, and it's the first film with King centered as the lead character. It's ain't enough. It needs to have more. He walks, he goes and makes. Makes the butler. They make the butler first. But David is still holding on to playing King because David always knew that he was going to play King. And so he tries to keep the film alive and basically produced that film by keeping it together and by having the financiers say, if I can bring you another director who will make it for the $20 million, will you make it? Yes. He says, I just worked with this woman. She made a film that won Sundance for $200,000.

[Lena Waithe]

She has this one best director, to be specific.

[Ava DuVernay]

She has this producing partner, Paul Garnes. They make independent films. They've made these four independent films. They feel like they can make it on this. And so he pitched us and Paramount to Pathe. Paramount was a negative pickup. They picked it up after.

[Lena Waithe]

Oh, okay, okay.

[Ava DuVernay]

And so Pathe, they said, okay, I rewrote the script to center. It's called Selma. It's not called Lyndon B. Johnson, Baines Johnson, which is. He was like the main character in it. And so rewrote it to include women of the movement and to conclude scenes where women talked about things without the guys around. And to do all of that, we did. And my father was from Haynesville, Alabama, so, you know, he's from Lowndes County, Alabama, which is central to the film. And so bringing all that family and that ancestry to it. And, yeah, we made that film in Selma, in Atlanta, Montgomery. And it was. My father was alive at the time. He was there to see it. He was there to go to the premiere. He was there to. And I just thank God. I thank God that. And he passed away maybe two years after, unexpected, unexpectedly, but he got to see his baby girl calling action on the steps of the Alabama capital in Montgomery State capitol. And with David being king, he was there. And so that film holds a lot of meaning to me, but for my family and for all that I learned on that picture, Hollywood politics, dealing with outside money, playing with the big toys. And on that film, meeting someone who would be, you know, central to my work and life. Oprah. And my strengthening relationship with David.

[Lena Waithe]

Cementing your relationship with David.

[Ava DuVernay]

Yes. You know what I mean? Just where we really became family. It's a huge, huge, huge moment for me.

[Lena Waithe]

You speak about family. There's other. As I watch the movie and see the cast, there are other people that pop up, that sort of become a part of. You would say maybe your chosen family. I'm talking about Niecy Nash. I'm talking about Como Domingo, talking about Omar.

[Ava DuVernay]

Yes.

[Lena Waithe]

And these are people, you know, I've gotten a chance to hang out with.

[Ava DuVernay]

You know, also the cast. That cast. You look back at the cast, you're like, wait, Lakeith Tessa's in there?

[Lena Waithe]

I mean, I mean, you know Audrey Holland, who's also turns on a beautiful performance.

[Ava DuVernay]

Absolutely.

[Lena Waithe]

You know, it's interesting. Can you talk about the casting process? Because, you know, you have to direct Oprah Winfrey, who turns in a really stunning performance when she has to go in and take the test so she can vote. And it's a very heartbreaking scene to watch, and scenes, plural. But you're having to recreate our history literally, but also capture our vulnerability and our humanity. That's a very tricky line to walk. And you have to walk it every single day with a big. A big weight, a big responsibility on your back. What are you thinking about when you walk onto that set to direct those scenes?

[Ava DuVernay]

I felt in pocket. I felt I had done enough things at that point that I felt not like, I've got this, but I felt I know how to. I know what I want, I know how to get it, I know how to do it. And I'm working with subject matter that nobody can tell me, you know what I mean? Anything about this. Not from a place of not Informing me or helping me learn more or more depth, because I had all of the movement leaders who were alive, were involved, were there. Congressman Lewis was on set, Connecticut. Vivian was on set, Ambassador Young was on set. Like, these people were there. I consulted them about the script, I talked, and they'd spent time with me, and they were really pouring in and educating me. So by the time I land to the set, I'm just like, this is mine to do. You know what I mean? This is mine to do. This film has not existed with King from a black director at the center, just King at the center of a feature film had not been done at that point, which is crazy. And there needs to be nine more. I mean, what are we talking about?

[Lena Waithe]

But, I mean, you have boycott, but it's sort of, again, focused on a different time. Well, that was. That was on television, right?

[Ava DuVernay]

It was HBO television, but like a feature film, a theatrical release with Dr. King at the center hadn't been done. So, yeah, it. By the time I got there, the preparation.

[Lena Waithe]

How much time did you find before you.

[Ava DuVernay]

It was fast. It went really fast. I rewrote the script. I think it was, you know, five weeks from writing the script to the green light. Not five weeks after I wrote the script, but write the script. It's being budgeted simultaneously, and it went because it had to go fast. That's why it just all kind of came together. There's really no reason why I got that opportunity. I mean, it had gone to Paul Greengrass, Lee Daniels. I think Spike was around it at one point. There were a lot of major directors associated with this film. How's it going to, you know, the girl who just won Sundance two days ago. Right. And, you know, so a lot of reasons in Hollywood, why not? Why wouldn't it go that way? It went that way only because of a confluence of circumstances that made it so that there was a timeline. David was pushing for it, and it was somebody who wouldn't question the budget and was just going to back right your way into the number. Back into the number. It was never going to go further. And so we need to make a film for this amount of money. And I will do.

[Lena Waithe]

When it comes to making a biopic, I was curious, what's most important to you? The historical accuracy, authenticity, or the subject's humanity?

[Ava DuVernay]

Well, for that one, all of them. I mean, it was important to be. We want to show King as human. So that's historically accurate. Anything else is not historically accurate. He smoked, he overate. You know what I mean? He had relationships outside of his marriage. Not even relationships, but whatever they were, all these things are addressed in that movie. Those were not in the script. You know what I mean? The tension between him and Mrs. King, the love between them, the way that they had to make up, the way that they had to manage their marriage inside of a movement, all of these things that's historically accurate. And to paint him as a saint is not historically accurate. To paint him as a real man, an ordinary man who did extraordinary things is accurate and is a triumph story. You know, when we try to put people on pedestals, then they're not real. So they're distant from us, and they're doing things that I can't do. He had failings and foibles, and he was a real person. And at 39, he had led a movement that actually changed this country, truly. And, you know, he's assassinated at 39 years old. And anything that you see that he had done, that is all happening in his 30s, I mean, in late 20s. It's remarkable. And as you're learning and you're falling and you're rising and you're trying to do all this stuff and all that pressure and the physical threat against his life, his friends, his family, seeing comrades drop and be assassinated, and you're still walking forward, it's like, you know what, brother, have that cigarette and have the extra burger and do whatever you need to do to survive this. You know what I mean? That's what I wanted to show. And that's historically accurate. And it also is accurate that that movement was driven by black people. That movement was not driven by lbj. That movement was not driven by anybody else except black people. In Alabama, that Selma movement, they were there first, and they called people in to help them and to be a part of the movement. And that's all what I wanted to show as well. So the human dignity, the historical accuracy, everything, it was so important. And I was grateful that that wasn't my first film, that it was the fifth film that I had had. The scandal episode. You should have seen me, Lena, once they roll in the crane. I've seen it before. You know what I mean? Thank you, Shonda and Tom. You know what I mean? Like, every piece of the journey helps with the step. And that's. That's the thing. It's like whatever you're going through right now, whatever small thing you're doing that you think is not enough, whatever. You know. You know, you're at the coffee shop and you're just pounding it out or it is all the best part, because it's just a step. You just. You just. You're just taking your steps to the thing you want to do. And the thing that you will realize. And I look back now, I get a little emotional, then you will realize. Steps were the best part. I mean, such a joy to sit here and talk to you about these projects, because they're not old projects. They are like shining stars in the universe of me. You know what I mean? And to be able to say, let me tell you about that star and that star, even though at the time it didn't feel like a star, but, you know, it has shined on me and it has illuminated my life and it has informed me, and it's inspired me in ways that allowed me to do the next thing.

[Lena Waithe]

Look, Selma's a big step. I thought the movie is so beautifully shot. I was curious how much of the look of that film did you want to be in conversation with the subject matter?

[Ava DuVernay]

That's a great conversation. Thank you for the question. Bradford Young is a cinematographer. Phenomenal. He's a genius. Even your cinematographer here behind the camera just did that is usually the response. Alfred Young, Bad, bad man.

[Lena Waithe]

Yes, he is.

[Ava DuVernay]

We had worked together on my mic. Sounds nice. On Middle of Nowhere. We had done a couple of commercial things, like something for Prada that I had done in there. And so we had had that shorthand. And really, for me, he has such a style, like, such a beautiful style. I did not want that style to be in Salem. So it was really trying to take someone who has, like, a very strong style and saying, that doesn't apply necessarily to this story. You know, we need to be here. And so it's not gonna be as stylized, you know what I mean? And so I think it was the film that I had to. He had to think about in a different way. Like a much more stripped down way than what he would use. Like, I would love to see Selma Brat's version of it. You know what I mean?

[Lena Waithe]

It was your version.

[Ava DuVernay]

Yeah. And so he actually helped me facilitate my version of it. It's still gorgeous and joyous cinematography on his part, but it is, you know, different than the way. The way that I think it's a collaboration. And so, yes, you know, I wanted it to be. I wanted it to be fresh. I wanted it to be beautiful, but not to feel contemporary. Like, I remember having a lot of issues with. In the marketing, there was a Public Enemy song put over the film, and it was to bring people in to, you Know, it was, you know, Ferguson was happening. Selma Ferguson. There was some marriage there. There was a lot going on. We wanted to make it feel contemporary, bring people into it. But I was also thinking, like, you know, is this the right thing to do? This is of its time. Time. You know, should it be something that feels more of its time? And so, because I wrestle with that a lot in the film itself, like, how do I be true to these people, honor these people? Because I want this film to be timeless. Sure. I don't want it to be something that feels trendy. And so, anyway, we were really able to find a look that I think doesn't look like the time that we made it necessarily. Hopefully it's classic enough that it's. You know, you could still watch it now and not. It doesn't feel too dated.

[Lena Waithe]

I can tell you right now, as a person who watched it yesterday.

[Ava DuVernay]

Okay.

[Lena Waithe]

That it feels timeless. It feels stunning. It feels really relevant. And I think some of the things that I picked up on was that distance between two people who are in a loving relationship and holding on to each other and finding ways to continue to do that. It's such a difficult thing to humanize our heroes. And I just think I'm just grateful that you also showed in that movie the camaraderie, the community, the joy, the breaking bread. That was definitely something I picked up on in doing my readings about him, is that he got the most done while sitting at a table, good food, hanging out with friends, and plotting the next project. We go back to your beginning. You go back to the documentary space and this documentary, I think, and watching it again, because I remember watching it in real time. When it came out on Netflix, it reminded me of a docu series I would call when I used. I watched as a young person called Eyes on the Prize. I remember watching those VHS tapes and learning about my history, and it was required viewing and my family buying that set and me watching it and sort of kind of almost being forced to watch it.

[Ava DuVernay]

Listen, I'm glad you said that because it's the same as Selma. I feel like people be forced to watch Selma. And I'd be like, but just watch it. You gonna say something to it? I don't know what, but that's Selma. Same thing on Eyes on the Prize. Let me just tell you, my mom is gonna be pissed at me, and my brothers are too.

[Lena Waithe]

Go for it.

[Ava DuVernay]

My mom used to say, if you don't sit down, I'm gonna make you watch Eyes on the Prize. It was like the Punishment because she knew that they did not wanna watch Eyes on the Prize. And yet you start watching Eyes on the Prize and you be like, like, yo, dang. Exactly. You know what I mean?

[Lena Waithe]

And so, yes, well, as I sat and watched 13th again, it reminded me of all the qualities of Eyes on the Prize has and continues to have where it is, historical context for our country. And I do remember, yes, being a young person being sat down to watch it. But as a 40 year old woman sitting rewatching 13th, I found gratitude for my family and gratitude for you for making work such as this. Why did you want to make 13th?

[Ava DuVernay]

Well, 13th it was progressive. It didn't start in the path that it became. But as I. The thing I love about making that doc, and even the doc that I'm making now and other films that I've done since it was my first film where I thought, oh, I can learn while I'm making it and I can share what I learn while I make it. You know, while I'm. I was researching and it was becoming bigger and bolder and braver as I was making it. What I thought I was gonna make when I started is not what I ended up with. And so why did I want to make it? I was, you know, passionate about people understanding that prison is just a place where bad people go. Which when you ask most of Americans, I'd say free. 13th. There's been studies done that the thought about prison has changed since 13th, but that most people just didn't think. There's a whole industry around this, people are getting super paid from it. And also there's a history. And you should know that it's not just because the guy or girl did something wrong. Right? Because there's a lot of people who've done something wrong that are not there. So, so how does that all work? And let us tell you about that. And as I sat down with people and it just became more sprawling and more, I think, muscular in what it's trying to say, I became even more ignited by it. And to go back to the doc space, the other thing that 13th really taught me, because I'd always distributed my own work, I've always been interested in distribution, how to get from the artist to the audience without a lot of middle people. And so had always really valued that and had gone through the Paramount piece and seen, you know, scandal and like started working with studios and networks. But it's the first time that I understood the power of a global audience. And so that is the first piece that I Had that was distributed around the world through Netflix. I mean, at the time, it didn't even have as many. Netflix didn't have as many countries as it does now.

[Lena Waithe]

Wow.

[Ava DuVernay]

But yet still, I mean, the reach. There's really nowhere I go around the world where people don't talk to me about their team. And to see as I got some of the data from them about how it was popping in these countries that didn't even have applicable laws. Like, it's not like, oh, their laws are kind of like ours. So that's why they're watching 13th. You'd be like, why is it popping? Why is this popping off in Switzerland like this? Like, what is it? And it started to show me that they always talk about demographics, that this is a psychographic. It's a way of thinking it doesn't matter if you're a man, a woman, age, nationality. Justice is a common point of interest for a lot of different kinds of people. You know, it doesn't matter what you look like. A sense of moral fairness and what is right and wrong is a psychographic that goes beyond the ways that we divide each other physically. Right. And geographically. And that's when I first started to learn that. That this is a. The common denominator is the way we treat each other, and that anywhere in the world, you're gonna find injustice.

[Lena Waithe]

You know, it's interesting. Before we move on to the next thing, there's two things I kind of picked up on. In the middle of nowhere. You do speak to a black man being imprisoned. You do it from a very personal human space. Obviously, in 13th you really start to dive in. There's also a common thread of you highlighting lyrics, hip hop lyrics, specifically in 13th, not unlike you do in this Is the Life. So just sort of seeing things sort of pop up again and.

[Ava DuVernay]

Okay, interviewer. Okay, research. This is my baby right here. Doing such a good job, Lena.

[Lena Waithe]

I also recently sat and watched the pilot Queen Sugar.

[Ava DuVernay]

Oh, wow.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah. It's actually one of my favorite pilots. Like, period.

[Ava DuVernay]

Really? That says a lot.

[Lena Waithe]

You love TV because there's so many things happening. And I think what I love most is how it opens on locks of hair, brown skin, it being tattooed, you not being afraid for there being another body in the bed that isn't a black person. And then how you hold things that you want to reveal in terms of you not telling us immediately if one of the sisters husband, was he involved? We don't know. You holding that fight on the basketball court, you holding the father's the Patriarch's death until the end. What did you want that pilot to be?

[Ava DuVernay]

Thank you for watching it. That makes me so happy. I wanted it to feel like an independent film.

[Lena Waithe]

It does.

[Ava DuVernay]

You know what I mean? I wanted to give black people on own, you know, it was giving hbo. That's what I wanted to give. Like, premium television feeling on a basic cable budget. You know what I mean? And that's, you know, Paul Garns, incredible producer. The whole team that came together to make that. Spencer, cut that first episode. Come on, my guy. Yes. And, yeah, that was the goal. Just like we're about to put this down in a way that allows us to, you know, we can do it. We've made these independent films on lower budgets than what we have to make this television show. Like, let's just make something beautiful. And that was the whole thing. Through Sugar is just like, let's make it beautiful. Let's give it indie cinema vibes. And also delve into the everyday magnificence of black people. Like, there's not. We don't have to do car chases. We ain't got to do explosions because just us and our families is explosive and dynamic enough. And so let's just let this story unfold. And just such an honor to be able to do that. And I remember there were times in the seventh season when I was just like, oh, I can't even. Cause I'm still making films, doing all that. I miss it so much. I complained. There were times where I was just like, I am on deadline for a script. Every day of my life, I am on deadline on a script like, this never ends. Like, is it ever gonna end? And you're getting pickup after pickup. I mean, what I wouldn't give now, right, to have it back. I mean, I had so many shows on air. It was six shows at a time. I just. I was always writing. I was always editing. I was just, like, drowning in scripts. It was too much. But Sugar was just so, so special. 88 episodes to be able to do that show.

[Lena Waithe]

And you can't do that without an invested audience.

[Ava DuVernay]

It was the audience.

[Lena Waithe]

It is always.

[Ava DuVernay]

And you know, the audience almost all. I see them all in the Atlanta airport.

[Lena Waithe]

New Orleans, I suppose, as well.

[Ava DuVernay]

I do see some of the New Orleans airport. But when I walk to the Atlanta airport is Queen Sugar Land. It is the land of Queen Sugar. I mean, it is. It is extraordinary how many people. Because everyone's coming through Atlanta Airport. So you're seeing the whole country come through Atlanta Airport, and they want to talk about Ralph Angel.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah.

[Ava DuVernay]

They want to understand about Aunt Vi and what is she doing now?

[Lena Waithe]

Come on.

[Ava DuVernay]

What's happening here? How's Blue? How's Blue? How old is he now? Just like, he grown. He out the house now. But just the way people really felt, like the family, like it was their family. People would just come up to me like, I miss it. Like, you can tell I miss it. What is going on? Can it come back? That's not understanding how TV works.

[Lena Waithe]

I know.

[Ava DuVernay]

When are you gonna bring it back, Ava? Can you bring it back? I wish I could bring it back. It doesn't work like that, but it's a compliment. It's a beautiful compliment.

[Lena Waithe]

It's a tribute to the work. It was a joy going back and visiting that family and seeing all the layers, all the loves. And again, a common theme is couples having a little distance. And it's one I think you are able to capture really authentically in all of its complexities. Okay, we're gonna go back to the movies, and this is a big one with a big budget, a big cast, and, again, a big burden. I think that was put on your back. But I remember being at this premiere as well.

[Ava DuVernay]

She's on the list perpetually.

[Lena Waithe]

Let's go. Me and Issa. Were there a Wrinkle in Time.

[Ava DuVernay]

Yeah.

[Lena Waithe]

How did that manifest in your life?

[Ava DuVernay]

I love a Wrinkle in time.

[Lena Waithe]

Me too. I got to sit with it again.

[Ava DuVernay]

Yeah.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah.

[Ava DuVernay]

I love it. I look at it, and I think.

[Lena Waithe]

An introduction to Storm. Read.

[Ava DuVernay]

Read. Another Aisha Coley find. Yeah. Didn't she turn out to be something?

[Lena Waithe]

Yes, she did. Continues to shine in your work as well, but.

[Ava DuVernay]

Yeah, I couldn't believe it. A studio basically offered me something. It's the first and last time it's ever happened. I've. I. I have not been offered a studio movie up until that point or since. Ever since. Yes. Everything I've made is, you know, it's self generated. It's putting it together on my own. And so. But, yeah, tendon agenda. An black executive at.

[Lena Waithe]

When he was at Disney, when he.

[Ava DuVernay]

Was at Disney, you know, asked me if I wanted to do it. I remember sitting. I was like, this is happening like it does for the white boys. I'm actually getting the Drop me in. I was like, are they pitching me? Is this. And I heard about this. Like, I'd heard that this is how it was, like, my only time of a real Hollywood moment in a traditional studio sense of like, just a straight director offer. No, write, not Writing it. It was a director for hire offer. Come in and direct this movie and. And wow. And it was a real education because up until then I'd been independent.

[Lena Waithe]

Did you feel like. Because sometimes with these really huge opportunities that you have earned, you can rise to it or sometimes you can drown in it. How are you able to deal with. How do I show up as authentically as myself and bring to it what I need to, but still carry a weight. That is a really big flag that everybody is looking at me.

[Ava DuVernay]

That was tough. You know, I didn't even realize that it was what the budget implications were or any of that stuff was at the time that was written about after the fact. I didn't. Didn't start out. You know, the budget and all that stuff wasn't in my head. I was just getting an opportunity to make this film. I was excited to have the offer to make it. And they were going to put a black girl in the lead and I was going to be able to do it and I was excited about it. I think though, you know, one of the things that has really helped me through that is peeling off the pressure. Like literally I had two conversations that really changed my mind is one with JJ Abrams and one with Spielberg. They were just kind of like the short version is why you trippin? You know what I mean? That's the short version. It didn't do. It didn't do Black Panther numbers. There's. Spielberg was just like, okay, should I just take out all my films that didn't do the numbers that they were supposed to come on? You know what I mean? Like, do you want to talk about always and like all the, like the films that he had that just didn't pop. Every filmmaker, you can do it for Scorsese, you can do it for like there's no filmmaker that you can talk about that has hit out of the gate, Denis, you know what I mean? Blade Runner, like hundreds of millions of dollars across the board across all this. Some things hit some. Some things don't fit. There's no major filmmaker that has had a bonafide Nolan.

[Lena Waithe]

Everybody has was during that time. And watching you experience that, I think, you know, for me there was still always pride because I saw you begin and to see where you had gotten to. It was a culmination, I think, of all the work, of all the sacrifices, of all the bets you made on yourself. So it was a win before it got to theaters.

[Ava DuVernay]

Thank you.

[Lena Waithe]

Love you.

[Ava DuVernay]

It's the things that you try to, you know, keep pushing, getting A piece of yourself in it. I learned a lot from it.

[Lena Waithe]

You succeeded. So this is the project where I feel like you kind of got back to your roots. I think I'll never forget pulling up to Netflix headquarters. You were showing all four episodes at the same.

[Ava DuVernay]

Yeah, okay, okay, cool. I said, you have to stay here all day.

[Lena Waithe]

Okay, cool. And I did. And then later on, by that time.

[Ava DuVernay]

You'D already been on the COVID of Vanity Fair. By that time, the Blow up and Glow up was happening. I was like, can we get Lena to sit here for It's True to actually. Who's gonna give a whole day to watch this? Okay, maybe a few friends. And you came in, you hunkered down. That's a lot to watch in one sitting.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah, again, in my home. Some Bathroom Breaks. When they See Us is a masterpiece. I'm curious to know what made you want to take those stories, those five families, really, to take on all of that and tell it through a narrative lens.

[Ava DuVernay]

I always had been fascinated by that case. You know, they were the same age as me. So I remember hearing about it as it was happening, and just like, the whole wilding thing, and these boys and people in my community and my family were like, they didn't do it. But then everyone's saying that they did it, and it was always in my head. So when Raymond Santana slid into my DMs on Twitter and was just like, would you ever consider doing this on us or making something for us? The next time I was in New York, which was maybe a month and a half later, I said, let's have a coffee. And once I talked to him, he immediately took me to meet Kevin. Like, that same day I was over meeting Kevin. And then in short order, I met Yousef. And I'm meeting these men, and it's like this. Their story was so classic Hero's journey. You know what I mean? It is just a remarkable story, but people didn't know the back half. And you know, the reason why I say thank you when you call it a masterpiece. Not about the filmmaking, but for me, it is about the impact that it has had. Those men's lives, they are different people than who I met. And it is directly because of the response to that work. One's running for office, the other one's a councilman now the other one's on the speaking circuit, the other one's this, like, they all the story turned around and the idea of narrative change, how we can, you know, an idea of history and memory and what's True. And what is, you know, misinformation. And all of that is within that story. What the media says and what we believe and what we know and who we believe. All of that is a part of that film. I think of it as a film, but part of that story. And to see how it turned out, you know, to see the people who had been lauded and the people who had been exalted as the heroes of that story, you know, unmasked for what they really did and who they really were, and the people who were the villains and the criminals and, you know, the wilding thugs being shown for who they really were and the families who stood by them, you know, that was. It became a calling. That's what happens for me. When I hear an idea, I get pitched a lot of ideas, and I think of a lot of ideas through the day, but now and then one will take hold, and it just has a little shimmer, like that's something. You know what I mean? It probably happens for you as well. And when I heard it and started to research it more, I was like, this is quite something. I was watching Adolescence the other day.

[Lena Waithe]

I actually wrote that in my notes.

[Ava DuVernay]

Okay.

[Lena Waithe]

Because I couldn't help. And watching it again in this time when Adolescence, which is also four episodes, is generating a lot of conversation, a lot of articles, and being lauded as well as a masterpiece on Netflix, too. What's interesting about that show, and I've seen that as well, is that when you see a young adolescent white boy, there is Presumed Innocence. Audiences still struggle with the fact that it is not a whodunit.

[Ava DuVernay]

I was surprised when they showed. Spoiler alert. Turn it off. If you haven't seen Adolescents.

[Lena Waithe]

I have not seen Adolescents.

[Ava DuVernay]

When I was watching the episode, when I was watching the episode and we see the thing that I was like, oh, wow, this is what it's about. Cause you're right, I presume that they had the wrong kid.

[Lena Waithe]

And then when you look at even the title of your limited series, also can think of it as a film that they. These five adolescent young black and brown men are presumed guilty. And so I couldn't help but make that connection. What I think you're doing, because someone could say, there's a documentary already. We know the story, right? But that's why I was so happy and fascinated that you wanted to take the narrative story, that they wanted you to tell their narrative story, so that way we could actually get inside of their houses, inside of their homes, inside of those interrogations, which is, again, you're Bringing in like Selma, historical context and Selma. You put the FBI writings on the screen, so we know that this isn't made up. You're also, I believe, pulling from the actual interrogation records. So these aren't just lines that you're making up or creating, but you're giving us that historical accuracy, that the subjects having real humanity. And also there's a lot of authenticity. It's a period piece and you're capturing these people at that time. How were you different approaching when they see us as a filmmaker than you were back when you were doing Selma?

[Ava DuVernay]

Well, some of the people that we were chronicling, you know, some of them were alive, but I couldn't talk to King. I couldn't really get inside of it, but I was able to look at all the. I couldn't talk to lbj, but the historical record is there. And that deep research had started with Selma. It moved into 13th and really learning how to research and put the research into the art. And I started to be propelled by that. I mean, you have all of these, you know, these footprints that lead you to where you need to be. The actual words, the actual sitting down and, you know, for all that work for origin, for when they see us, hours and hours of interviews to prep to do the thing. So it got me into that kind of filmmaking, but also I believe that this kind of filmmaking is going to catapult this type of filmmaking, not particularly me, from an ego place. But this type of filmmaking is going to catapult in its importance as we are in the midst of a purposeful, deliberate dumbing down of America by taking books off shelves, closing libraries, reprogramming public spaces to be one point of view on what history is and what America is. Filmmakers, artists, musicians, sculptors, writers. It is our job, our job to tell what happened, to keep history alive. And whether or not it's on a bookshelf or banned on the bookshelf. We still have to write it, we still have to make it, and we still have to make sure that we are giving weight to history, to the historical record. You know, you can go and see what they said. You know what I mean? You can look at the picture and understand. I don't have to believe you because you say it doesn't happen. I don't have to believe you because you say that slavery had good things, you know what I mean? When it is actual torture of human beings day in and day out, and there wasn't a damn good thing that came from. And you're going to gaslight me and tell me that you're going to gaslight me and tell me they just took a Maya Angelou book off the Navy out of the Navy library. You know, we're in the midst of something right now that is so dastardly and evil in what it is trying to do on purpose to make you not understand yourself and your place in the world, whether you're white, black or otherwise. That is the artist's responsibility. I'm quoting Nina, but it's true. The artist's responsibility to speak to the times. And these times are going to require us to do more. You know what I mean? Doesn't mean we can't still play and have a good time. But who's going to say it? You know what I mean? Like, who's going to say it? Who's going to make the thing? Who's going to make sure we remember, you know, and so, you know, cast is a book. Everyone's not going to read the book. Everyone's not going to watch the Central Park Five doc. Everyone's not going to read Michelle Alexander's new Jim Crow, which was one of the basis of 13th everyone's not going to look at some of these mediums of expression and information. So make a version that they do watch when they see us as a play. Someone made an opera out of it, Someone else did an art exhibit, doing stuff, you know what I mean? 13th there's different iterations, other docs that use the same look, use the same language. Good, keep going. We have to keep iterating and keep telling the story in as many different ways as we can. That's why I think there should be five more King films. There's so much to learn. And so I think right now, more than anything, it is about that kind of filmmaking that you're talking about, where we actually, it goes beyond just what we want to see. But what do we need to say? What is required to say? And, you know, I just, I want more of us to take on the historical record. And I think that now is a time where it's needed more than ever. And I really, I really hope to see more of it.

[Lena Waithe]

Can you talk about what it was like working with Michael Kenneth Williams?

[Ava DuVernay]

No, I was just looking at some pictures of him the other day. I had to give some. Some pictures to some folks for an archive and I came across set photos, beautiful, gorgeous set photos of when they see us. And I saw some interactions of me and him that I hadn't seen in a while. And I just saw him on set. And I just. I'll have to say, he changed so much about the way that I direct actors. When he. When I sat down with him for the meaning for the part, I really wanted him. But he had a bad reputation. He had a reputation for being late, and he had a reputation for not being on book. And he had a reputation on book is knowing your lines. And he had just a reputation for not being, like, super professional and serious because of some of the drug issues. And so. And he talks about this in his posthumous book. And he said, I can tell the story because he told the story. And so when I sat down here for the meeting, just to see if I could get him to come on board and if he wanted to come on board and if I could work with him, I just said to him, straight up, you can't do that. None of that could happen if I gave you this part. This is important to these men and to their families, and I just won't abide that behavior. And I don't want to deal with it, and I've never had to deal with it. And, you know, how are we going to get around it? You know what I mean? I can't tell you to stop doing what you do, you know, I don't know what you're dealing with, what's going on, but that can't be here. And that's the only thing that's stopping me. And he said, if you give him this part, you never have to worry about it. I promise you. And I look you in the eye, and I give you my word as a man, you never have to worry about it. And I didn't. And he was so stunning. I'll get it. More.

[Lena Waithe]

No, I'm in. Yeah.

[Ava DuVernay]

He was so stunning. He took those boys under his wing. All those boys, except for Jerrell, who kind of ended up winning the Emmy for it, but had some. A little experience. But the rest of the boys had no real work experience. I mean, Ahsante Black, who's like, incredible, like Khalil, all these boys had not done much. They were just coming straight out of school or a little supporting part. He took them under his wing. He was so loving. Not just to me. He would come on. So on days when he wasn't scheduled to work. He's the king of New York. He'd walk on set, the crew, the people watching on the street. It was like Norm walking into Cheers. It was just like, michael's here, right? And he would just bring his light with him, and I'd be like, what you doing here, brother? He's like, just here to check on you. It was just, you know, it just would come in. And he gave. He gave so much to it. And I'm so grateful that he was able to see the response. He was able to be a part of that campaign. He was able to have that Emmy nomination. He was able to shine in that moment when he. You know, he was clean as a whistle through that whole thing and showed up in a way that was just remarkable, not only on screen, but off screen. I miss him. I. You know, I'm so grateful I got to work with him. Mm.

[Lena Waithe]

There's a lot of people to talk about, and when they see us. And there's one particular actor I wanted to highlight. Jarell Jerome earns his Emmy in every sense, in every space, in every piece, every breath, every look. And it's a tricky thing because there are multiple actors, as you said, there are five amazing actors portraying real people. But in the fourth, the fourth piece of this masterpiece, he goes somewhere else and takes us with him becoming a teenager, going into an adult prison, and coming out on the other side. We can see on camera the genius that we're witnessing take place. But obviously, there's a director behind the lens that's helping him find what is really a tour de force performance. What was that like for you and him sort of in that ring on set, being honest, being true to someone's real life.

[Ava DuVernay]

I think it's an extraordinary performance. And I was so happy that people responded to it. First and foremost, people around the world. Secondly, the Academy that gave him the Emmy. I just have so high hopes for him. And my hopes are just a consistent, long career doing incredible stuff, which he has picked and chosen very well, what he's been doing. And he's an exciting actor. My strategy with Jerrell, that I knew he had the chops because he had to audition as both. He had to audition. I did not know that I was gonna have the same actor play the young one and the old one. Cause every other boy is played by two actors. But he came in, and his age was right on the cusp. And I didn't know if I was gonna cast him as the young one or the old one. Aisha said he might be able to do the young one, but when he came in, he had a full beard. And so I was like, well, maybe he can do the old one. So he auditioned as both me thinking I was going to pick him to do one, until I thought, wait a minute. Could he possibly do Both. Is this even possible? And so when he got both parts, it became, you know, now it's like just pouring as much as I can into him. And the real thing that I did, not much. Cause he's an extraordinary actor. My main strategy was he needs to become close to the real Corey. Because once you meet the real Corey and you spend time with the real Corey, I think it's going to come to life for him. And he committed. It wasn't even a commitment. It wasn't even anything talked about. As soon as Jerrel met Corey, the real Korey Wise, they connected on such a cellular level. And Jerrell really invested the time. Not from a. I'm researching apart. But I am going to love this person and I am going to serve his story. I'm going to give him justice. I'm going to like. He really took that on and he start. You know, Cory's a very particular voice and body and performance and all that. And to go from a kid to that, the innocence to the hardening to the still the love to the. I mean, what he did, I think came out of his real seeing Corey and not playing Corey, you know what I mean? And so he. That's a lot of work for an actor to take on. And so he. But he became close to the real man and was able to then share him through his own body, you know, share the essence of that man in a way that it was beyond what I dreamed we would get.

[Lena Waithe]

I mean, his performance obviously lives on in Television Academy history forever, as it should. You know, it's such a stirring performance. And it's what I think about when I think about when they see us and watching 13th just before looking at that work again. Again, it is a continuation of that mission, that work to educate us, but to remind us of each other's humanity. And I think it was such a beautiful experience to watch those two pieces back to back. Last but not least, this movie I got to see. This movie I got to see early. I believe I was at Soho House. I think David Oyelowo was moderating the conversation.

[Ava DuVernay]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Lena Waithe]

I remember that.

[Ava DuVernay]

You gave me one of the best hugs. Lena has the best hugs.

[Lena Waithe]

Look, I had to give you a big hug because this project, I think, is also a culmination of really all the work that you've been doing up until this point and will obviously continue to do. How does Origin come to be for you?

[Ava DuVernay]

Well, thank you. I read the book and thought in the book she talks about how she's really dealing with academic legacy for. From, you know, black historians and scholars like the Davises, who we chronicle in the film. She's following up on work that had been done, right, by other people. Ambedkar, Dr. Ambedkar, you know, the Indian. I won't even say scholar, icon, hero, the Dalit hero. So people had done this work, and so she was building on top of that work, and it was. How do I not know any of this? I remember reading the book as a revelation, as another way to process the world in which I live. That's not just through the lens of race or not just through the ideas of sex, but through that or gender or sexuality or whatever the things we deal with, but through this other thing that all of those things sit on top of this foundation called caste, which we just don't really. We aren't conversant in that. We're not fluent in talking about cast. And so it was a fresh, new idea to me. Not to many people, to some people, but to me, it was. And I just thought, wow, is this a documentary? What is this? And in real short order, I became interested in how do I tell it in a form that the most people. Most people will be able to kind of ingest. And so start looking for stories in the book that could be the story of a movie, but it wasn't really there because it. It's an academic text. And I began to then research her and understand that she had such a beautiful personal story. And I thought, oh. And then I saw that she was going through some really tough times in her life at the same time she was writing this book. So it's like, wow, this becomes a story of this artist as hero, this woman who kind of moved through her grief by writing this book that helps us all kind of move out of the fog that we're in and see things more clearly. And that became really interesting to me. And so when she agreed to let me interview her for two years about personal life, about caste, it all became really clear that, oh, this is the journey I'm chronicling a woman on a journey of personal healing. As she helps us with the collective healing and as she writes the book and learns about it, we see the book come to life, and that could be a way that I can get this tough book out, some of the key things. So I liked the structure, and it was interesting, as the writer part of me, to adapt a nonfiction book into a fiction film. And I enjoyed the challenge of that. And, like, with 13th, it's like, it's okay. To learn as I go. And as I learned, as I traveled the world to prep the movie and make the movie, everywhere I went, I was learning. And I was pouring that into the film as an active process as opposed to, here's the script shoot. It. It was every day just was feeling like it was new and alive. And it's my favorite thing I've made.

[Lena Waithe]

I mean, look, I said this to you after the screening. It's one of my favorite things of yours that you've done. And I think being able to be there at your origin, I can just see so much of you. You in that movie, because there's pieces of. I will follow in it. There's obviously social justice is all throughout. Like, it's basically saying, an injustice anywhere is an injustice everywhere. And I think Aunt Ellis, being centered in this film for you as a director, again, you're dealing with the real life again. That weight of that. That responsibility that comes into the room, again, why is it something you continue to run toward?

[Ava DuVernay]

I don't know. I really would rather die. You know what I mean? I don't know why I'm interested in real stories. So if you're dealing with real people stories, you have to deal with real people. It's tough. It's challenging. But I think that's just what I'm drawn to, you know, I think with Ingenue in that film, you know, she never met Isabel Wilkerson, so she learned about her and was able to bring her in through her writing and through the research and what she was able to do there in embodying her. By that time, Isabel had really kind of handed the film to us and said, I gave you the two years of research. You know what I mean? Like, God bless. Like, go do your thing. I just think she's an astounding actor. I didn't do anything. You know what I mean? I didn't do anything but tell her I loved her and try to create a safe space for her and go with her. And in doing so, she was able to really teach. She really shares things in that film that I think people who've seen it and hopefully, as time goes on, more people will see it. But people who've seen really have been affected by what she does.

[Lena Waithe]

You know, it's really interesting, the imagery in the movie. It feels, and I say this with all respect and honesty, it feels very Gordon Parks esque. Almost every frame feels like a photograph.

[Ava DuVernay]

Wow.

[Lena Waithe]

Obviously, there's the haunting Trayvon Martin walking and seeing that. There's the Innocence, the simplicity, the mundane. What conversations were you having with your DP about how you wanted this movie to look?

[Ava DuVernay]

Thank you for asking about Matt Lloyd. Matt Lloyd was my DP at the time, but he was more than that to me on this film. This is a film that was made outside of the studio system. So it was a very small group of us who were making something, you know, three continents, you know what I mean? Seven different time periods. It's spans over 100 years. There's no studio. It's like me and Paul Garnes and just like, you know, Matt Lloyd had to have so much faith and so much trust and so much love for the subject matter, white man. You know, I came to just love how much he loved me and the process. He worked with crews from around the world and he, you know, that's difficult. I'm in Germany, I'm in India, I'm working with all kinds of people. And you know, he is, you know, giving me so much respect. He's modeling what all these other men from around the world who had never worked with a black woman director. Oh, well, we're gonna follow what Matt does. And I'm telling you, I was treated like a queen on that movie. And it's Matt, you know what I mean, who is leading the way for that crew, you know what I mean? Matt, who is. I never heard him say my name. He never called my name. He only called me ma' am cinematographer. Yes, ma'.

[Lena Waithe]

Am.

[Ava DuVernay]

Ma', am, we're ready. Ma', am, are you ready? And everybody was like, ma', am, can you like literally, like just that modeling of someone who is saying, we will respect her, this is her vision, we're here to serve that. And so the process of it was a completely different way of working with the dp. And so our prep process and what we wanted to do with each frame and just that beautiful diligence with everything but not letting it look too affected. I don't want you looking at the cinematography, you know what I mean? I want you to just let it wash over you and then later think like, wow, that was beautiful. Right? And so, and so it was just a. He's an underrated, extraordinary filmmaker, cinematographer, and a beautiful friend. And it was one of my favorite collaborations I've ever had as a filmmaker.

[Lena Waithe]

I mean, well, it's clearly a beautiful marriage between the two of you. And I think one of the most stunning scenes, there's many, but the little black boy being like softly pushed on the sort of like blow up raft in the Pool. Going into that day, what was on your mind?

[Ava DuVernay]

I was worried about the temperature of the water and having all these miners.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah.

[Ava DuVernay]

So I had all these kids, and we could not get the water warm enough. What? And I was just like. Because it was cold outside and for. We were trying to warm the water. Oh, we've got 72 hours. We're going to warm the water, Avery. No problem. Okay, great, great. No problem. Comes in water. Check. I'm filming other things. How's the water on the set that we're gonna be at in three days? It's gone up. I was like, okay, so it's going up. Like, the tools that we're using Indy to get it up. It's going up. How much has it gone up? Two degrees. Two degrees. It's gotta go up 30 degrees. By the time we shoot, it will. Next day went up 5 degrees. Next day went up 1 degree. By the time we got there, it was not for human. For kids. So I had to go. Paul Garns and me had to go to these parents and be like, so it's cold outside. It's actually cold in the water too. Will you please let your child get in the water? Like, I'm like, the little boy who's playing the lead. He's gonna be freezing. I'm not gonna get the performance. You know what? All that was a person who doesn't have kids because these kids jumped in that water. Like, what's the problem? Kids, they don't care about the temperatures. They just want to play in the water. They got in the water, their bodies warmed up in the water. Like, they adjusted to the water. Even the parents were like, what's wrong? Why are you two childish people going out?

[Lena Waithe]

Is it not warm enough? What's up? Are y' all cool? It's like, we in here, we're in here.

[Ava DuVernay]

They got enough water. It was great. And yeah, it was a beautiful day and was really the boy. I had all the kids, the water. And I'm producing as well. So I'm not just director for hire walking in and saying, hey, everything okay? Like, I gotta make sure the. Like, everything's happening. And so I made sure that I had a coach for the boy, for our main boy, Lennox.

[Lena Waithe]

Okay.

[Ava DuVernay]

Because I could not be with him all day and really help him through it. I knew that I was going to be distracted. And so we had done prep work, but still, I wanted him to have a best friend throughout the day who could sit with him and be with him. It's a wonderful Acting coach named Noelle, and she was with him, worked with him. So by the time he came to set, I didn't have to do a prolonged rehearsal. I didn't have to do anything because the water, the kids, everything's happening. He was ready. All the prep work we had done, and he was ready. And this kid. I mean, working with kids, for some reason, it keeps coming up to me as someone who doesn't have children by choice.

[Lena Waithe]

Same here.

[Ava DuVernay]

By actual childless.

[Lena Waithe]

By choice is what I like to call myself.

[Ava DuVernay]

By choice.

[Lena Waithe]

No desire.

[Ava DuVernay]

Storm Reed and the kids in that blue and blue when they see us, all those kids. Origin. Like, I'm always in scenes with you.

[Lena Waithe]

Also in Selma, you having the. For little girls, for little girls.

[Ava DuVernay]

I just have worked with a lot of kids in a lot of tough situations with this boy. And so it was just about being there with him in the moment. But the decision to have a coach with him throughout the day to keep him, because kids will wander and they'll get off. You know what I mean? He was able to stay focused and the professionalism of his family, his mom, the coach and him, and staying so locked in. This boy was on another level that whole day. His name was Lennox, and he. He was a star. And he captured the true story of this man named Al Bright, who experienced that. And if there's one or two things that I hear as I. As I talk to people about origin, they say, the boy in the pool.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah.

[Ava DuVernay]

And it's this, you know, boy and a man who had been about background actor who's telling the story. The white man who's telling the story, who's a background actor.

[Lena Waithe]

Wow.

[Ava DuVernay]

Who just got upgraded on that day. The story wasn't in the script as that it was going to be narration or Angenou was going to do the voiceover and tell the story.

[Lena Waithe]

Wow.

[Ava DuVernay]

But I saw this background actor, and he was talking to other people, and he was talking to me, and he was telling me stories. And I said, do you think you could take this script and kind of remember it and kind of say it back to me? So it wasn't memorized. One take. He read it and then he said it as if it had happened to him. Not an actor. Extraordinary. Background actor. Out of background actor means an extra out of Savannah, Georgia.

[Lena Waithe]

Older white guy.

[Ava DuVernay]

Older white guy.

[Lena Waithe]

What I think you're getting at in the work is that we all need each other, because the people that you're talking to me about that picked you up when times were tough for J.J. abrams and Steven Spielberg And Guillermo del.

[Ava DuVernay]

Toro and Shonda Katzenberg, too.

[Lena Waithe]

You know, in that there are. But also you mentioned Gina Prince Pythewood in terms of introducing Ayesha Coley and Aisha Coley being with you throughout your career, but also so especially Spencer Averick as well. And so, you know, it's the thing that, as ever, whenever I read Baldwin essays, he always reminds us that we are all in it together. And your people, you never know when those people are coming from or what they'll look like or who they'll be. You don't know that your angels will be Oprah Winfrey, David Oyelowo, Aisha Coley, Spencer Averick, Tayne Jones. And so I think that you have shown me to gather my troops, because you talk about not necessarily knowing how to work within the system, but it's because I think you're creating your own. And I think that's what Origin feels like. It feels like a culmination of your own universe and you centering a black woman's journey to follow her gut, follow her mission, follow her mind. So I think Origen to me is another origin story. It's almost a new beginning. It felt like for you.

[Ava DuVernay]

It did. It did. I hope I get the chance, I pray I get the chance. I meditate, that I get the chance to do it again, to tell stories at that level of complexity, complexity or budget or global scope, independently. I also know that working independently has shown me better ways to strengthen working inside the system as well. And so every project I'm learning and I think that film is the film that I've been on the set and felt the most guided and like, I.

[Lena Waithe]

Can feel that in it.

[Ava DuVernay]

Really?

[Lena Waithe]

Yes.

[Ava DuVernay]

I wasn't struggling.

[Lena Waithe]

It just feels like a song.

[Ava DuVernay]

Mmm. Thank you. It felt like music to make it. And even though that's my least seen movie, I look at that movie and it's like that is everything that I want to be doing, you know, I want to do more of it, but I did it. And. And so I don't have to grasp for it anymore, you know, And I'm excited to see where that leads me.

[Lena Waithe]

I mean, you say least seen. I mean, please. Some of the most game changing movies were sometimes missed at the moment in which they came out because, you know, Baldwin said about Raising the Sun, that it wasn't meant for the audience it was put in front of. It was meant for generations that hadn't been born yet.

[Ava DuVernay]

Mm. Wow.

[Lena Waithe]

I think Origin will eventually be a part of the Criterion Collection. And I also think it'll eventually be in the Library of Congress, but it'll be forever. And I'm forever grateful for that. Last question, what is your definition of a phenomenal director?

[Ava DuVernay]

I think it's the work, you know, and that's complicated because you hear about people who have tough experiences on set with the director who didn't like the director who didn't like the experience. And yet the work is shimmering and shining in a way that supersedes what the experience is, you know. But I have to prioritize the work itself over the experience. There are different times in my career. I would say, well, you're just having a great experience is the mark of a great director. No, I think it is. We're here to do this work. And so if the work is doing what it needs to do, saying what it needs to say, enduring, you know what I mean? It is echoing through the years. It can still stand on a 10 year anniversary, on a 15 year anniversary, on a 20, on a 50 year anniversary, whether it's renowned or not. But you can watch and you can still feel something. And that's come from one person's vision who's marshaled the visions of a lot of other people. That's greatness. And so it's regrettable that sometimes the experiences aren't fantastic. I think a superior director is one who is able to create beautiful experiences and beautiful work. But I think a great director, director makes great work. And so. And if you are a director who's made even one thing that people will remember you for, that's greatness, you know, one thing. And so I think, you know, you look at, you look at, you know, filmmakers that have, you know, two things, three things, five things that will stand the test of time, that will echo through the culture. That's what I strive to be, is to have a canon of work that says, this is what she meant, this is what mattered to her, and this is that she made it in this way. And this, this is what stands. So that's what I'm striving for.

[Lena Waithe]

I'm grateful I get to say to you that I think you succeeded at that and exceeded that. Because I've got a chance to sit with your canon again. What's so special is I got to witness it in real time.

[Ava DuVernay]

One of the few people, one of the few people it's very special to sit here with you and for you to have reviewed that work and for me to known you through all that work, and very few people I've known since. I will follow you know what I mean? It's a long time. Go back, go back and. And to take my work seriously, take me seriously. It's hard sometimes when you're sitting with a friend, you kind of, oh, it's my friend, I know her, you know. But for you to take the work seriously, to watch it again. And everything you do, you do. Everything you do, you do well, you do. And so, including this conversation, I just have to say on here, everyone has said this, but pride is an overused word, but it is when it's. People say I'm proud of you. And it's like a trick off, like, I'm proud of you, I'm so proud of you. But this is a deep knowing, a knowledge of who you wanted to be, what you wanted to say, what you wanted to do. So many people have a desire and have a dream. Dream. And for reasons that may not be their own fault, all kinds of reasons. Some are their own fault, some are not. So few people actually do them, attempt them, let alone realize them, let alone catalyze it into a whole career that has affected millions of people. And to see my friend do that and walk your own path and have your own opinions that some I agree with and some I don't. Smile, Lena. Dammit.

[Lena Waithe]

Fair.

[Ava DuVernay]

You know what I mean? But to see you just walk in has been a majestic, magnificent thing. To witness and pride in a way that is so deep and wide in you. And I just. I wish you every blessing, every joy and to keep going. I love you.

[Lena Waithe]

I love you too.

[Ava DuVernay]

That's what it is, love. Thank you.

[Lena Waithe]

Thank you. That's good.