Loading summary
Transcript219 lines
- [00:02]
Bill Duke
Lemonade. He went into his office and he pulled out a reel. He had mixed my reel up with somebody else's.
- [00:13]
Interviewer
Oh, wow.
- [00:15]
Bill Duke
That's how I got my first job. Legacy O Legacy. Oh, can you do your job? And let's talk about your vision and my vision. I love complex rules. I mean. Cause we are complex. And of people, most black folks don't complain. I had to get up. If you're really an actor, you're not acting. It's not about the lines. It's about you becoming that character. You know, you don't fuck up. Right.
- [00:44]
Interviewer
Legacy.
- [00:44]
Bill Duke
Oh, Legacy.
- [00:47]
Interviewer
Well, thank you so much for being here.
- [00:49]
Bill Duke
Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.
- [00:51]
Interviewer
Yes. You know, it's interesting. Normally I start these interviews with someone's first credit that I know them from and I saw them in. But we recently had a guest sitting in a chair across from me by the name of Taraji P. Henson. And you came up in our conversation. And so I actually wanted to start there, if you don't mind. That's because Taraji talked about being a young struggling actress in Los Angeles and she wasn't getting a whole lot of work, but she wanted to do something. She wanted to be acting. So she and a few other actresses who were in the same situation decided to get together and put together this sort of like theater camp that she said you were willing to sponsor if they were willing to do the work. And they did do the work, you did sponsor it. And you brought in a bunch of guest speakers. And one of those guest speakers happened to be John Singleton. And that was. Would be very impactful in her life later down the line when she would be casting Baby Boy. So I just want to one say thank you for being one of those people that is willing to step up and pour into the generation that's coming behind you. But I'd also love if you could speak to what that experience was like, how you met Taraji and what made you say you were willing to put your money where your mouth was and continues to be to ensure that these actresses had an opportunity to become what they ultimately needed to become.
- [02:21]
Bill Duke
Well, thank you so much. Well, I met Taraji through audition and she was just brilliant and also very kind spirit as a person, forget about the acting, but as a person alive, living, humble, non egomaniacal human being. And so I was only impressed by her acting skills, but who she was as a human being, in terms of looking back, I think that you do not only others, but yourself a disservice when you don't understand, you know, how can I say it? How you got to where you are, you know, and not in all cases, but in our industry, many times, ego transcends humility and ego. Ego, I always say, is E. Edging G. God O out. Edging God out. But when you begin to think about your daily life, your health of mind, body and spirit. Whenever you think it's you, you're missing something and not that. Who we are with ourselves, that's the most important thing, in my opinion. If you don't love you and care for you, that's a real problem. Because no one can fill that hole.
- [04:11]
Interviewer
That's real.
- [04:13]
Bill Duke
Yeah, right. And so I'm just grateful that I understand that. And I'm at the quantum physics also. I'm not confused about. I think life is an ongoing. Whether you're physical body leaves. There's something that's still here, that's connected not only to the Earth, but the galaxies and the cosmos. Of course, we're all just basically different rhythmics of energy. I know it sounds a little strange.
- [04:51]
Interviewer
Maybe not at all. I agree with you saying. I'm curious to know what some of those calls were like. When you called a lot of the directors or guest speakers to come in and talk to these young actors, was it easy or did you have to convince anybody?
- [05:08]
Bill Duke
Most of the people that I knew were friends of mine or people I had met. And one of the things is that they didn't lose focus of who they were or how they got here. And a lot of them understood that. They worked hard. Yes. But there was somebody someplace that reached back and said, okay, I believe in you. I believe in your talent. Let me give you this break.
- [05:37]
Interviewer
Well, I'm so glad you did it. And when Taraji mentioned it, she had no idea that you were scheduled to come talk to me. So when she mentioned it to me, I lit up for many reasons, because I just loved that and loved hearing that story. But also I think I was really excited because that. That speaks to why you're sitting in front of me. I think is because of that legacy. And how that is such an important part of your legacy. Giving back now to your acting career. We will start with the first credit. I want to ask you how Car Wash came into your life.
- [06:14]
Bill Duke
I had worked with the director, the great, great, great Michael Schultz in New York at a place called the Negro Ensemble Company. He was a director and a teacher there. And at that time in New York, their black theater was almost non existence in a broad way. But no pun Intended.
- [06:35]
Interviewer
Right.
- [06:36]
Bill Duke
In terms of Negro Ensemble Company, there were black productions, Black directors, producers, writers, actors. And Michael Schultz was one of the leader with Douglas Turner Ward, one of the people there that really trained and welcomed in black talent. And so I was in a play at the Negro Ensemble Company. And then when he moved to Los Angeles, I came to Los Angeles and he did Car Wash. He invited me to come over and to just, you know, I didn't really audition because he believed in my talent. So the great Michael Schultz is incredible director, great producer, writer, and that's how I got my first real job. Because, as you said, he reached back. He didn't get what I call blamnesia.
- [07:35]
Interviewer
Exactly. I mean, what did you think? I think it's interesting that you didn't have to audition for that role. So it was sort of. He wanted you in particular for that part. What did you think when you first read the script or encountered the character of Dwayne, but also known as Abdullah Muhammad Akbar? What was your first impression of the script and of the character?
- [07:56]
Bill Duke
Well, the script was, you know, I call it edutainment. You know, it was entertaining because it had comedy in it, music in it, all of those things. But it also had nuggets of information that you had to think about and feel. And when I read the script and I saw that for that time in terms of black films, Melvin Peebles, of course, was the pioneer in terms of an Oscar show before that. But in terms of somebody coming out with a film with a message and entertainment, too, I just almost begged him to be a part of it because it was, like, so rare and so powerful a film. I just wanted to be a part of it.
- [08:49]
Interviewer
Well, you. Your character is really, I would say, the heart and soul, one of the many. There's a lot of great characters, but you're definitely one of the. The heartbeats of the movie in that you are not. You don't have the luxury and the joy of getting to be humorous in the movie. Your character is very serious, and he is, you know, very much a part of the Nation of Islam. And it is a role where you're surrounded by so many funny people. I'm curious for you, what was that experience like having to be around so many funny comedians? I mean, you got Garrett Morris. You go toe to toe with Richard Pryor at one point in the film. What was that like for you to have to be the straight man?
- [09:42]
Julia Louis-Dreyfus
Well, hi, everybody. It's Julia Louis Dreyfuss from the Wiser Than Me podcast, and I'm not gonna talk about food waste this time. I'm gonna talk about food resources. All that uneaten food rotting in the landfill, it could be enriching our soil or feeding our chickens because it's still food. And the easiest and frankly, way coolest way to put all its nutrients to work is with the mill food recycler. It looks like an art house garbage can. You can just toss your scraps in it like a garbage can. But it is definitely not a garbage can. I mean, it's true. I'm pretty obsessed with this thing. I even invested in this thing. But I'm not alone. Any mill owner just might corner you at a party and rhapsodize about how it's completely odorless and it's fully automated and how you can keep filling it for weeks. But the clincher is that you can depend on it for years. Mill is a serious machine. Think about a dishwasher, not a toaster. It's built by hand in North America and it's engineered by the guy who did your iPhone. But you have to kind of live with Mill to understand all the love. That's why they offer a risk free trial. Go to mill.comweiser for an exclusive offer.
- [11:12]
Bill Duke
Well, it was like, how can I say, one of the most rewarding, fulfilling experiences of my career as an actor. Because when we were working on set, the people didn't break character. You know, when it was lunchtime, always have a good time and laugh and so on. But after lunch, once the lunch was finished, you went into those roles. It was like, you know, you were really part of an environment that was real because people really were those characters. And Richard Pryor, one of the most. Ivan Dixon, some of the most sincere, brilliantly talented, non egoistic people I've ever known. Puenda sisters were, I mean, the best. And so it was like a family. I know it sounds strange maybe, but it's like working with your family. But when it was time to get with it, they didn't play well.
- [12:40]
Interviewer
It's a very layered character that you're playing and there's even a particular scene in which you have to make home to one of the other characters in the scene. Obviously we can't judge characters. We have to play them with all of their humanity, their flaws as well. I was curious, how was that for you, being a young actor, obviously wanting to take seriously the role and who this character was? What were you thinking about in trying to find this character and making sure you were playing him as honestly as you could even if maybe you didn't necessarily agree with the character's beliefs or what the character was saying.
- [13:26]
Bill Duke
I really had to examine the very layered aspects of who he was and is. He wasn't just one thing. He represented a consciousness of the time. And that consciousness was, yes, sometimes militant, sometimes anger, sometimes homophobic, sometimes. But it represented a period in which was as, you know, multi layered. The character represented a lot of the young people of that time who were focused, but also self contradictions. And so. But it was that period, you know, it was, I mean, Ivan Dixon's character working at a car wash and managing the car wash. There were no black people managing car washes at that time. But, you know, my character saw him as Uncle Tom because he worked for the white man and so on. And he reminded me that he had a family, he was making a living, and that he didn't bow down to anyone, including me. So it was, you know, it was. I mean, I think the writing and Michael Schultz directing it and guiding the writing of it, I just thought he was brilliant.
- [15:07]
Interviewer
Well, at the end of the film, you have a very emotional breakdown, and it's a very vulnerable scene and a scene that could be seen today. And that's what I think is what really touched me so much about the film and films such as that that endure, that can be timeless, that feels still very relevant to today. When you think about that performance and also that final scene, did you have any idea that it would be something we would still be referencing or looking back on? Or was the mission in that moment just to be as authentic and as honest as you could be in the performance?
- [15:51]
Bill Duke
It was about being as authentic and honest in that moment as I could. But I think in my mind, the character represented so many young black men. You know, it's like even to this day, you know, when the average person sees a young black man walking down the street, you know, because there's a way that we have of moving and walking and talking, you know, a certain. It's hard to explain, but we have that. And it's sometimes taken as hostility. But people don't see that young man's humanity. I mean, you have no idea the conditions under which he was brought up, what he's going through. Because most black folks don't complain. You know, when I was a little boy and my sister and I were like 7, 8 years old, and we were running and we fell on the gravel, my parents would go pick my sister up and kiss her and wipe her knees off and say, you okay? Yvonne, is everything okay? Yeah. Mommy and Daddy, he looked at me and said, get up. I thought they were being mean, but they were trying to prepare me for the world that I would be part of. And they're right. I had to get up. Does that make any sense?
- [17:37]
Interviewer
Yes, it does. And I think that's why I think it was so just touching, your performance in that film, how important that performance is. And I actually see versions of that character show up again later in other projects that you've appeared in and that you've been behind the lens. That character, I think, set a tone and was the first time we'd really seen a character like that. And I think that you were the perfect person to play that character.
- [18:12]
Bill Duke
Thank you so much.
- [18:13]
Interviewer
So thank you for that performance. It's really stunning. I want to talk to you about good times. I saw that you wrote an episode called Cousin Raymond. Co wrote an episode, but I went and visited that episode. It was in the last season of the show. And it's actually an episode dealing with having a gambling addiction. And Florida's Cousin Raymond comes home and he's coming to some money, but they find out it's because he's been playing the horses. I'm curious how you found yourself in that writer's room and how that episode came about.
- [18:50]
Bill Duke
Well, you know, the show was, how can I say, very much open to us. You know, it was during a time, you know, where there weren't a lot of black shows on. And for us to express the truth about who we were as a people, not just buffoonery, but going into the depths of who we are and were and to a certain extent was rare. And so working in that way was a privilege. You know, I wish more and more of that existed today, you know, where the exploration of who we are in terms of. How can I say, I consider our culture a culture of alchemy. You know, Jesus was the first alchemist. He turned water into wine. But you give us guts, we turn magitlans. But that's all we were given to eat. But Masa ended up eating them too, because they tasted so good. And so I believe that, and I hope the message is not lost on the youth of today, that alchemy is a very important part of our who we are as a people. And so complaining doesn't. I'm not suggesting pain does not exist. Racism exists. All kinds of isms exist. But what are you gonna do about it?
- [20:54]
Interviewer
Exactly? I'm curious how much involvement you had in the episode writing. Cause I know Sometimes when it's your first television episode, you get rewritten. A lot of your words don't wind up on the screen. I really enjoyed the episode. So I was curious how much of your words did you. Were you able to watch the episode and say, yeah, that feels like what I did, or they rewrote me a lot.
- [21:18]
Bill Duke
They paid me a lot of respect, thank God. And so a lot of what I felt in terms of character was left in. But in tv, I mean, you know, it's not, it's, you know, it's not just the writers, it's the producers, it's the network. So I mean, if you did or said something and the director loved, doesn't mean that that's what's going to be seen. It goes through a layer of editing. And so that's just the reality.
- [21:55]
Interviewer
How was that for you dealing with that as a young writer?
- [21:58]
Bill Duke
On certain levels it was frustrating. But whatever I got to get through, I was grateful for and thankful for. And being one of the few blacks that was able to be a part of that at that time. So I felt fortunate. That makes any sense, does it?
- [22:13]
Interviewer
Does it? Does. I thought the character that you were introducing, Cousin Raymond, was a very layered, interesting, human guy.
- [22:23]
Bill Duke
Yes, human.
- [22:24]
Interviewer
I mean, he felt very charming. You were sort of very charmed by him as an audience. Obviously the cast, the characters are charmed by him. And you feel for him when he goes back and takes the money that he was leaving, the $10,000 and her family, he has to come back and take it because it is an addiction. And you do feel that back to you being on screen. I didn't realize. Cause I'm familiar with this movie. It's a part of our American cinema classic films. But I did not realize that you were a part of this film. American Gigolo.
- [22:59]
Bill Duke
Yes.
- [23:01]
Interviewer
It's interesting. Again, you forced me to really sit down and take this movie in because I think I've just always been aware of it. I know it's. It's sort of like folklore. I know all that. But again, you're pushing boundaries in terms of the roles that you're taking on. I'm curious to know what you thought about the movie at the time. And how did the role of Leon come to you?
- [23:27]
Bill Duke
Well, I love the role because it was so multi layered. I love complex roles. I mean, because we are complex as a people and we're not just one thing, whereas we may appear to be one thing, but there's so many levels of who we are. And working with Richard Gere was like one of the best actors ever and a very humble person and a collaborator. So it was a challenge because working, you know, accepting a role where you found out in the end that the character was gay was a challenge. And I was told by friends not to take the role because, you know, it may damage my career. But he was such a layered human being. I mean, gay. One thing.
- [24:34]
Interviewer
He's also someone would call a.
- [24:39]
Bill Duke
Yes.
- [24:40]
Interviewer
Is he like, technically a pimp? He's a pimp.
- [24:44]
Bill Duke
A gay pimp, yes. That's who he was.
- [24:46]
Interviewer
He made me say it. I was like, look, he was what I can gather, he was watching the film. Yes.
- [24:54]
Bill Duke
A successful one, right?
- [24:56]
Interviewer
I mean, Richard Gere is, you know, one of his workers.
- [24:59]
Bill Duke
Don't make. Don't make me lose my money.
- [25:01]
Interviewer
Exactly.
- [25:01]
Bill Duke
You know what I mean?
- [25:02]
Interviewer
I'm trying to say you got competition. This other lady. Give me, you know, you know what I'm saying? Give me more high profile clients. Well, what were the conversations like with your agent or manager or team at the time? Or were those conversations happening? Or were you just aware that, hey, this is gonna be something special? Could you tell that you wanted to be a part of this because of what the subject matter was? Because it was pushing boundaries, but it also happened to be well written and beautifully directed. Were all those things you were taking into consideration, making those decisions?
- [25:35]
Bill Duke
Yes. I mean, I first working with Richard and the director and the script was fascinating to me. And I just love great writing. I mean, you know, it's like I'm not trying to be, but today I find writing not to be as excellent as it used to be. I'm not saying all films, but a lot of films, particularly independent ones with layered characters that you can identify with, that have humanity and they're complex.
- [26:15]
Interviewer
I mean, the 70s really was known for this time of risk taking. And again, you coming along at this time as a black man, as an actor, would you say that helped shape what your career ultimately became? Because you really do start with a very high bar. I think Car Wash is one of those, obviously. Then cut to American Gigolo. And these are not films that are sort of flash in the pan movies that you see and you forget. These are movies that when I say them, people, their images come to mind. And that's a very difficult thing to do to make movies that people never forget. And I'm just so, so fascinated by the people that helped make these movies because at the time it must have just felt like a job. But I also wonder if, because you talk about cosmos and energy. There also must have been some sort of feeling on set. In particular in that scene. The first scene we see with Richard Gere sitting down at the table and you two conversing. Can you feel a sort of magic or sort of energy while you're making it? Is there an ease to it that feels sort of unique?
- [27:22]
Bill Duke
Well, you know, I come from theater.
- [27:25]
Interviewer
What do you think theater gave you that helped you in this iconic career that you've been able to build?
- [27:32]
Bill Duke
Well, theater, it. How can I say it made me understand that if you're really an actor, you're not. You're not acting. You become the character. As one of my great teachers told me, he was a director, one of the first black directors on Broadway with Raisin and the Sun. Lloyd Richards. One time he said something. I was acting and acting, and he says, bill, it's okay, but you're not. I said, what do you mean? I got all my lines? He says, no, Bill. After you have all of the lines memorized, you must do one thing. Fall into darkness, backward. It's not about the lines. It's about you becoming that character. And the lines are just things that you say, but who are you after their lines are memorized? And I never thought about it before. Lloyd taught me to become. So acting, that word acting, is almost like you're doing something that's not real. Great actors, the great ones, I mean, when they're on film or on a stage, you're into them because they have become that person.
- [29:29]
Interviewer
Wow, that's really beautiful. Thank you for sharing that with me. Thank you. I appreciate it. We're gonna go back to TV for a second. And this is you stepping behind the camera. This is a TV show I used to watch all the time with my grandmother because she said the lead character reminded her of a white version of my grandfather, who I never got to meet. He died before I was born. This show called Hunter, and we watched it a lot, and I had no idea that you directed an episode of this show. It was in the first season, too. It was early on. How did that TV directing gig come your way?
- [30:11]
Bill Duke
Well, I've been very fortunate to have, during that time when most shows didn't have any black directors to be able to direct a number of television shows. My first show, I think, was called Not Landing. And David Jacobs hired me for Knott's Landing. And I'll tell you the reality of how I got my first job as a director. I had submitted my reels and everything to all of the major Shows because I just come out of AFI and I had my little 15 minute movie and I was singing around to the networks, nobody would hire me. And so one day my agent called me and says, hey, Bill. Yeah, hey, David Jacobs wanted to see you for Knox Landing. I said, really? I got my little suit together and went to see David Jacobs. And he looked at me surprised, I think I was black, etc. And said, you know, you are a very, very good director, you know, and we were very impressed by your reel that you sent. I said, what reel? He said, well, the reels are the other shows that you have. I said, I don't have a reel, I just have. He said, well, what way made him. He went to his office and he pulled out a reel. He had mixed my reel up with somebody else's.
- [32:07]
Interviewer
Oh, wow. Wow. Come on.
- [32:11]
Bill Duke
We had already gone through pre production, so he couldn't fire me. That's how I got my first job. Wow.
- [32:21]
Interviewer
So you clearly knocked it out of the park, I take it then how did. So did the Hunter job come because they had seen your other work or did you know someone on that production.
- [32:33]
Bill Duke
Because there's some other work? Wow.
- [32:35]
Interviewer
What was it like directing that, that show? Because there's a lot of. There's a. There's a lot happening in Hunter.
- [32:43]
Bill Duke
It's.
- [32:43]
Interviewer
I mean, it's a cop show. You're at one point, they're running out of the. The restaurant to capture her purse again. What was it like filming action scenes and these cop scenes for you as a still early on in your career as a director?
- [33:00]
Bill Duke
Well, it was a great learning experience because I had a great dp, great first ad, you know, great producer, and they knew I didn't have a lot of experience. So they guided me through a lot of it and I learned a lot.
- [33:15]
Interviewer
You are in a film that I think changed things for a lot of us, particularly for me. I've seen this movie a lot and it means a great deal to me. And I'm forever grateful to the Hughes brothers for making it. And that is, of course, Menace to Society. I mean, another one is like, it's your career. Another one, another one, another one. They're still coming. Menace to Society is one of those movies that I watched way too much. I think I just. It was on a lot. Very much impacted by it, very much influenced by it, moved by it. I loved how unflinching it is, how relentless that movie can be. And I also realized today, after watching it for the millionth time, there's a character in there Sharif, who is believing that Allah is what can save the. And it's very much reminiscent of a character you played in Car Wash. And I could not make that connection to say, huh, that's very interesting that that character continues to show up in films about the black experience. You are playing a very different character in Minister Society. You play a detective. And the scene in which you interrogate Kane is one of the most memorable scenes in that movie. And there's a lot of memorable scenes in that movie as being a. Yes, you're an actor in the film, but you are a director at heart. One of the most fascinating things about the scene is the camera movement that they decided to use. What were you thinking when you obviously saw or were told by the Hughes brothers that that's how they were going to film the scene, with the camera circling you and the other actor at the table?
- [34:55]
Bill Duke
Well, I just thought it was brilliant. I mean, they are brilliant directors, writers, directors, producers. They, you know, it's. They approach things in an organic way, in a way that a lot of directors don't. Because they allow you as an actor. Once you talk to them about the script. They hired you because they believe in you as an actor, and they allow you to bring to the table. You know what I'm saying?
- [35:38]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [35:39]
Bill Duke
And so they feel free to use that camera in any way they want to because they know that you're going to deliver because they hired you for that role and you've proven to them that you can do it. And they're free to use the camera in any way they want, whether it's circling, whether it's above, where it's moving in or out, whatever it is. They're just, you know, part of the experience of what you bring. But they're. I mean, how can I say? They understand structure in terms of the beginning and middle and end of the story. They understand character structure, the beginning, middle and end of a character. And I wish more of that was taught today, because a lot of right now you have a cell phone and you film it, and that's a movie. And I'm just.
- [36:42]
Interviewer
Look, your standards are high, okay? Because seriously, the work that you've been a part of and continue to be a part of continues to, I think, shift culture. I'm cur. How that film came to you. Was that a straight offer or did that script cross your desk?
- [36:56]
Bill Duke
It was an offer.
- [36:57]
Interviewer
It was an offer. Wow. So I think it's so smart that they asked you to do that. What were you thinking when you did Read the script and saw that character.
- [37:09]
Bill Duke
I loved it. Because, you know, during that time there were a lot of young boys committing crimes because they had come from circumstances that were very challenging. So committing that crime was justified, whether it was robbery or killing or whatever. And they did not take the full responsibility for their behavior. And he blamed it on society or how they were brought up. And there's validity definitely in that. But there were children in their same projects under the same circumstances. They went to college, got jobs, et cetera. So the film pointed to the fact that this young boy, you know, thought that he was smarter than everybody and he could commit the crime and had an excuse for why he did it. And the detective had seen that I play, had seen so many of these kids do and say the same thing. And he was just honing in because he knew, he already knew what was gonna be said. You dropped the bottle of beer at 11:30, right? Yeah. Okay. You said you dropped a bottle of beer at 12 o', clock, right? Yeah.
- [38:55]
Interviewer
See, I'm gonna let you say it. I'm not even gonna try to do it in front of you, man.
- [38:59]
Bill Duke
You know you done fucked up, right?
- [39:00]
Interviewer
Isn't it?
- [39:01]
Bill Duke
You're only in one scene.
- [39:02]
Interviewer
Like, it's. It's as if you're. I think you're throughout the whole movie. I just really am blown away by how you are able to just sort of be imprinted on our brains from that scene.
- [39:19]
Bill Duke
And.
- [39:22]
Interviewer
It'S so important that it's you, because even though, yes, you're not playing someone that's giving him a break, but there's also a knowing you know what you're doing and you know that there's something up, but you don't have the tape. So it is what it is. So even though we may not love the way you're going about how you're doing your job, technically, we all know you're correct and that he is lying to you.
- [39:53]
Bill Duke
That's right. That's right.
- [39:54]
Interviewer
Wow.
- [39:54]
Bill Duke
You know, I was in. Of all the films I've done, acting wise, that one film, that line, I was in China and I'm walking by four or five these little young Chinese boys that must have been 15, 16, 17 years old. And they look at me say, oh, you be Duke. You be Duke. Yep. I say, yes. You know, you don't puck up, right? I said puck up. And you know, you puck up. You puck up, right? Wow.
- [40:29]
Interviewer
I mean, it's that iconic. It's that iconic. We always. There are no small parts, no small roles. I Mean, I definitely think the Hughes brothers felt that they were correct in offering that to you, because I think they knew that you would bring what you brought to it. Quick question is, what was that line on the page or was that ad libbed?
- [40:51]
Bill Duke
It was on the page.
- [40:52]
Interviewer
It was on the page. Of course it was. Did they. Was there any sort of ad libbing happening there or were you guys just free to do your thing and you had the lines and you just played with it?
- [41:02]
Bill Duke
With the lines? We played with it. You know, but they're. They're, you know, these are directors that if they hire you, they believe in you as an actor. So if you want to bring something else to it, they're totally open to that.
- [41:15]
Interviewer
How many times did you guys run through it, just out of curiosity?
- [41:20]
Bill Duke
I don't remember the exact number, but I think at least three times. Wow. Wow.
- [41:26]
Interviewer
No, those are always the best when you just do it a few times and just let it.
- [41:30]
Bill Duke
Yes.
- [41:31]
Interviewer
You know. You know, you're a director. I'm really excited to come to this next credit, that of a movie that means so much to me and so many others. I think I speak for myself and a whole generation when I say, thank you so much for making Sister Act 2.
- [41:51]
Bill Duke
Oh, thank you.
- [41:53]
Interviewer
I've literally gone to birthday parties where that was the movie that was screened, literally at a friend's birthday party. She turned her backyard into her own version of Sinispia. And we watched Sister Act 2 and we got blankets and food and said all the lines and sang along to all the songs. And you are such an unsung hero, I think, because Sister act, the first one, as when we had Shirley Ralph here sitting across from me, I said to her, I said, look, the first one wasn't supposed to work. I don't know how that happened, because when you really think about the ingredients of Sister act, in a lot of ways, it's one of those movies that you think, does that wind up in the clearance bin at Blockbuster? But it just did work. It worked really well. And so well that there was a sequel, because usually that's what happens when a movie does really well at the box office. How did you get to become the maestro of the sequel to Sister Act?
- [42:53]
Bill Duke
I'd done another film. I forgot the name of it, but it was successful. I think Whoopi Goldberg also, she would never say this, but she was influential because I think she wanted a black director. And working with Whoopi was. Working with her was a collaboration. You know, it's.
- [43:13]
Interviewer
And then Lauryn Hill, I was gonna ask you. Well, so many things I have to ask you. I'm curious. Did you have to pitch. Did you have to convince someone of your vision for the. For the sequel? Did you have to talk to the studio head or did they say, we trust that you can do it and Whoopi approves?
- [43:35]
Bill Duke
They trusted I could do it, and Whoopi did approve.
- [43:37]
Interviewer
Okay, so what was the first meeting like with Whoopi?
- [43:42]
Bill Duke
Whatever Whoopi did, she was in charge. So. Okay, the studio likes it. Good. I want you to meet Whoopi. You sit down, you have a conversation. She wants to know your vision. She gives you her feeling about what it is. It's a collaboration.
- [44:01]
Interviewer
How did that first conversation go?
- [44:04]
Bill Duke
It was great, because, I mean, I admired her from so many ways and she respected me as a director. So it was a collaboration.
- [44:14]
Interviewer
What were some of the things you wanted to get across when you sat across from her in terms of your vision for this film?
- [44:21]
Bill Duke
What was really appealing to me About Sister Act 2 was at that time, there were these street gangs and young people killing each other at a rate that was insane. And the message of the story of a music teacher in one of the high schools, that was a violent high school, brought these kids together with music. It wasn't easy because at first, as you saw, they did things to her, like put tape on her chair and rolled it.
- [45:00]
Interviewer
The glue.
- [45:01]
Bill Duke
Yeah, the glue and everything. Yeah. But they eventually grew to respect her one step at a time, and got these kids into a music contest, which they never thought that they were deserving of. She turned this junk bin into a rehearsal room. She sacrificed a lot of herself.
- [45:29]
Interviewer
You had the whole. What do you call those? The montage of them sort of refurbishing it.
- [45:36]
Bill Duke
Yes, the singing and the dancing and, you know, the message of the movie, these young people coming together that were perceived as throwaways because they were violent or disrespectful. We never could see their humanity, but the film was able to show their humanity. Yeah.
- [46:00]
Interviewer
And I think the students, obviously, are a big part of this movie. How was it trying to find all of these students? And in this class, there is a Lauryn Hill, there is a character as well that shows up again in Wesley. That's not unlike your character in Car Wash as well. It must have been very interesting for you, being a director and directing a young man who is dressed pretty similarly to your character in Car Wash. But what was it like trying to find all these kids with your casting director?
- [46:33]
Bill Duke
It wasn't easy but it was worth the task because I really believed in the message of the film, you know, and so did Whoopi. And so it was worth going through every single actor, every single dance routine, every single. And we had. We had a team of people as choreographers and casting director, et cetera, that brought the whole thing together. It wasn't just me, but I had a team of great, great folks behind me and with me. So it was an experience that. It's one of the best experiences of my career as a director.
- [47:22]
Interviewer
What sort of tone did you want to set on that set? Obviously, you have a lot of people. You're juggling a lot of folks. So how were you able to lead a cast that big, that young, and.
- [47:37]
Bill Duke
Clearly that talented with a team of people around me? The first ad, you know, the. All the people that were there supporting my efforts, you know, I don't care what director tells you this, but they never do it by themselves. I mean, they're lucky enough to have people that they trust that know how to do their jobs around them. It's surrounding yourself with the right folks.
- [48:07]
Interviewer
What are you when you're hiring? Because there's a lot of hiring that takes place in terms of your crew, in terms of your casting director, your dp, your first ad. What are you looking for when you're sitting across from them and interviewing them to come onto your set and particularly to help you steer this particular ship.
- [48:22]
Bill Duke
Can you do your job? I mean, let's talk about your vision and my vision. Okay, that's an idea. What specifically do you have in mind in terms of managing? Because it really comes down when you're making a film, you're managing three things. Time, people, and money. If you don't hire people that can manage time, people and money, you're in deep doodle. Because you can hire Uncle Jake and Cousin Sam. But if they can't handle tying people the money. See, the studio is very specific. There are people watching you every day. Every not minute, but second has a dollar amount attached to it. Are you going over budget? That's a problem, babe, because it puts my investmenters and my investment in danger. So you don't work much if you keep the owners. As a black person. If you put people's money and their investment in danger, you have to be a good manager of time, people and money.
- [49:55]
Interviewer
Did you feel also a big pressure walking in on that movie because the first one had been so successful? Was your. Were you focused more on bringing your vision to life or making sure it was as successful? Or maybe more so than the first.
- [50:10]
Bill Duke
Well, when you're in that situation, you're under the pressure of the studio itself and the executives. So I used to come to the set almost every day. They had executives.
- [50:24]
Interviewer
Yes. Because they were nervous about having a young director on the film or because they just felt like they needed to make sure everything was going well?
- [50:35]
Bill Duke
Both.
- [50:35]
Interviewer
Okay.
- [50:37]
Bill Duke
And so it's like. But if you understand the management aspect of movie making, you don't take it personally because they don't take it personally. If you're going over budget because you're waiting to make this shot when the moon is in the right place, you got a problem.
- [51:12]
Interviewer
Yeah, clearly. I'm curious just because we did have Shirley Ralph here and we talked about Sister Act 2. I'd love to hear what it was like for you working with her on this film.
- [51:23]
Bill Duke
Well, she, as I said, brings talent and commitment. I mean, you know, it's like. It's. It's. I wanted to work with people that understood the story we were telling, but really had the chops to really perform. Because when you're dealing with those many scenes and those many people and those number of characters under a certain amount of time, the actors have to bring it. And she. She brought it.
- [52:11]
Interviewer
Absolutely. I mean, a very unforgettable performance. And she plays the mother of a young Lauryn Hill. And that, I believe, is Lauryn's first film.
- [52:21]
Bill Duke
Yes.
- [52:22]
Interviewer
So she clearly has the chops and the charisma and the beauty and the talent. What was that like for you, directing her?
- [52:30]
Bill Duke
Lauryn Hill? Yeah, it was incredible because she. She's the kind of human being that at that time, when you worked on a scene with her, you said cut. The first thing she would say is, was I okay? Did I? Can I. Anything else you want? Can I do it differently? Da da da da da da da da. She always wants it to be better. And the first two takes were great, but she is, I won't say hard on herself, but she wants to. She always wants to make it better. And her better is great.
- [53:10]
Interviewer
I mean, she's phenomenal in the movie. Every young. We got Jennifer Love Hewitt. You have so many amazing young people in that class. And also I'm friends with Kathy Najimi, who I love. She's amazing. Obviously was in the first and came back for the second one. The thing that we all love so much as well About Sister Act 2 is that final sequence when they're singing Joyful, Joyful.
- [53:34]
Bill Duke
Yes.
- [53:34]
Interviewer
And that's. Is that Marc Shaiman's Idea to go with that song in particular, or did you were able. Were you a part of choosing that song, the final sort of finale?
- [53:43]
Bill Duke
Part of it. Part of it. But they'd already come up with the vision and et cetera. And when I heard it, I just thought it was great.
- [53:51]
Interviewer
I mean, you do such a beautiful job of directing the whole film. But that last sequence is really important. Everything from Shelly Ralph's character coming in to sitting down. Obviously Lauryn Hill's character having to start the song again because she so shocked to see her mother in the audience. And then the Pierre de Resistance, which is the big, like, finale performance that you get every angle we see every look, we see every move. How did you storyboard that in order to make sure everything happened?
- [54:24]
Bill Duke
Yes.
- [54:25]
Interviewer
And then was there a conversation with your editor before you filmed it, or did you also find it in the editing room once you had it all.
- [54:31]
Bill Duke
Shot to work with the DP and the editor?
- [54:35]
Interviewer
Yes, of course.
- [54:36]
Bill Duke
That collaboration.
- [54:38]
Interviewer
So the way it turned out in the film, how much of. Is that exactly how you envisioned it? Or were there some things that kind of you moved or moved around for the final image?
- [54:51]
Bill Duke
Editing is not just copying what you thought. It's a creative process. And you see something, you say, well, wait a minute, let's do it. And that's why pre production and storyboarding and those kinds of things are important. Because when I first came, you know, got an afi, I was, you know, a filmmaker, but I didn't understand the importance of editing. Because if you did not get it when you were filming, when you're editing, you don't have it. So it makes you think about what you gotta get.
- [55:33]
Interviewer
I mean, well, you do such a beautiful job just capturing so much joy and so much youthful energy. And also comedy. There's so much comedy as well. And Whoopi is just. Dolores is one of those iconic characters. Obviously, there's a third one we hear. We keep hearing the whispers. How do you feel about being a part of. I like to call it the Sister act legacy. And I think I watched Sister act too, more than I watched the first one. I'll be honest with you. What does it mean to you after all these years that you've done the movie? How does it feel to be a part of this. This franchise, if you will?
- [56:13]
Bill Duke
It's a privilege, you know, It's a blessing, you know, so glad to have been included in the legacy and to work with the people I worked with, you know, it's like I feel blessed. Feel blessed.
- [56:30]
Interviewer
Well, we're grateful because we love the movie. I can watch it any day of the week. It always lifts my spirits. And I think it speaks to your legacy and your mission, which is to not believe what you've been told about someone before getting to know them, but also your legacy. If you want to go somewhere, if you want to be somebody, you got to get up, get out there and do something.
- [56:49]
Bill Duke
That's exactly right.
- [56:51]
Interviewer
You do. Okay. I'm going to talk about a TV show that meant a lot to me coming up and a lot to a lot of us. I never thought there'd be a show about cool cops, but you were a part of the show that showed very kind of cool, fly, well dressed cops, which was New York Undercover. I was curious what was that experience like being in the director's chair of this new type of hour long cop show that was sort of showing New York City and black and brown people in uniform in a way, or plain clothes detectives. How was that for you stepping into that show?
- [57:37]
Bill Duke
Well, I love the vision of the show because cops are just given a blanket of who they are. They are law enforcement officers and many of them are just mean and they're taking advantage of the privilege of being a cop. That's how a lot of police officers are seen today and were then. And there are some cops that take advantage of their power and position. But most of these guys are human beings with families and they really believe in their job. That's the enforcement of the law. And if you break the law, you should pay the consequences of breaking the law. Now, somebody said we should get rid of the police department. Forgot who that was. Politically, I don't remember that or not. But the thing where I grew up, if you got rid of the police, it would not be good. So what I'm saying is I understand people stereotyping police officers, but that show was about giving them humanity. And it showed some great officers and it shows some bad boys too, which is the reality of life, right?
- [59:10]
Interviewer
Absolutely. There were a lot of car chase sequences happening in your episode. I couldn't help but look. And I have great directors that come on and work with me on my show. And we try to be as thoughtful as we can in terms of production. How difficult was that for you to be filming like car chases in New York City at that time?
- [59:28]
Bill Duke
It was not easy. We had to lock down blocks out of the song Alox. And I mean, stunt drivers are. They never get the credit they deserve. I mean, these are guys who put their lives in danger doing stunts I mean, these cars hit other cars and vehicles that are larger than the vehicle they're driving, etc. So you have to have skills to survive that. You know what I mean? Yeah.
- [60:03]
Interviewer
I mean, you're also working with. Because in every episode there was a musical guest, and for you, it was the legendary Gladys Knight, who also is acting in the episode as well, not just singing. What was that for you, like, directing Gladys Knight?
- [60:20]
Bill Duke
Uh, it's a true story. You know, I was a fan of hers. And so we're on this set one day, and I'm coming out of my trailer, and she's coming out of her trailer, and she comes over to me. Hey, hey, Bill Duke. Bill Duke.
- [60:44]
Interviewer
I said, wow.
- [60:47]
Bill Duke
Yes, ma'. Am.
- [60:48]
Interviewer
Okay, come here.
- [60:51]
Bill Duke
Okay. It is. She said, I really am enjoying working with you on this show. And da, da, da, da. And I'm just then standing there, like, speechless because it's Gladys Knight. And I said, you know, I have no words to express the privilege of being able to work with you. She said, I'm so glad to see you here. And that was powerful.
- [61:24]
Interviewer
That's amazing. That's phenomenal. You also work with Clarence Williams III in that episode. And I was curious because you will work with him again. We'll talk about that. But I'm curious, is that the first time you two met and worked together or.
- [61:36]
Bill Duke
I think so, yes.
- [61:37]
Interviewer
Okay, so in working with him, what was it like working with him in that episode? And could you feel a sort of bond between you two and working there and knowing. Did you know you wanted to work with him again after working in that episode?
- [61:49]
Bill Duke
Clarence, he didn't bring 100%. He brought 1,000%.
- [61:52]
Interviewer
Every time.
- [61:53]
Bill Duke
Every time. So you're working with somebody who. I'm a director, and I'm watching him on the set. I'm saying, you know, because he's not acting, he's there, that character. He becomes that character. So it's like that was a privilege.
- [62:14]
Interviewer
There was also a beautiful storyline with Malik Gilba's character, who has a son, G. They have some really nice father son moments. And it's also a very complex relationship because he's not with his son's mother and he's dating someone new, played by Michael Michelle, and his son has to go over to her home. How is that for you in terms of tackling that subject matter as well as a director? Because, yes, you're working with Gladys Knight. Yes, you have these car chase scenes, but then you have these very vulnerable, intimate scenes as well. Between his black Father and his young black son. I was curious how those scenes were for you to direct those.
- [62:51]
Bill Duke
Well, it was, you know, as I said before, privilege, because you're dealing with issues that aren't fictitious and at those times and still, unfortunately, now, black fathers raising black sons under the conditions that they were living in and all the temptations that that son was exposed to rather than going a route that would take his future in a positive way. That's real talk. That's real stuff. And so, you know, working on those scenes and in terms of them being part of, I mean, it's like I love dealing with, as I always say, edutainment. You know, it's entertaining, but also there's nuggets of stuff that are real and make you think and feel.
- [63:51]
Interviewer
I mean, it's such a beautiful episode and I think you do such a beautiful job with it. And yeah, I'm grateful for that show. I'm glad you got to come and direct an episode. Now back to your. To continue your directing space that I was prepping for Loretta Devine, who recently was sitting across from me and we talked about Hoodlum. I loved that movie when I first saw it. I got to revisit it because of some guests and also Queen Latifah. I really was in that as well. How did Hoodlum come about?
- [64:24]
Bill Duke
Well, the studio came to me and I saw the script and I just loved the script and what it was about because it, you know, dealt with a subject matter in a way that was so multi layered and, you know, and then being able to work with Cecily Tyson. Are you kidding me?
- [65:00]
Interviewer
Icon.
- [65:02]
Bill Duke
I mean, we were filming the scene one day and she asked me what I wanted her to do. And I told her, whatever you want.
- [65:18]
Interviewer
Whatever you'd like to do, Ms. Tyson.
- [65:21]
Bill Duke
Whatever you want to do. I'm good.
- [65:24]
Interviewer
How did she become a part of that film? Was that your idea or when you read the script, did you think of her? I'm assuming it was a straight offer. How did she come to join that film?
- [65:34]
Bill Duke
They gave her a straight offer.
- [65:36]
Interviewer
So was she your idea or was that a conversation? They were already having a conversation. The studio already wanted her for it. Wow. So for you with the cause, the entire cast is amazing. Obviously, Clarence Williams III comes up again. Obviously. Laurence Fishburne, you know, Vanessa William, Brother Divine, Queen Latifah. How did that cast. How did you go about casting or putting that cast together?
- [66:02]
Bill Duke
Having a script that I really believed in and had a message. I just love the script too.
- [66:10]
Interviewer
Well, here's the deal that does deal with. It's a period piece, obviously. In Harlem, were you. Did you feel that pressure of a period piece and having to get every piece of wardrobe, every car, the lingo, the hair, how much preparation went into just making sure that you were able to capture that time and that place and those people authentically?
- [66:31]
Bill Duke
I always say pre production is production. I mean, if you don't have a team of people you're working with and pre production that can manifest your collective vision, it's not going to happen the way you want it to happen. I mean, I, how can I say? It's like being able to have, if you can imagine you have a vision of something, but you have a team of people around you that can take that up. They're not your buddies. No. They can do their job and enhance whatever you bring to the table. And so I love surrounding my people, myself with people who can take a vision and add to it and make it even better than what I ever thought it was going to be.
- [67:43]
Interviewer
Well, it's a, it's a stunning film and obviously really beautiful performances from everyone. What was your dream for Hoodlum? What did you want it to be?
- [67:54]
Bill Duke
What you saw? I mean, I wanted it to. I mean, it's based upon a true.
- [68:01]
Interviewer
Story, a real person. Bumpy.
- [68:04]
Bill Duke
Yeah. Because in those days a numbers game, you know, when it went to Harlem, it was big. And when Dutch saw that, oh really, I'm controlling numbers down here, but I'm gonna go up in Harlem and control it too. And metal queen of Bumpy said, nah, nah, nah, nah, stay in your place, he said. I said, oh really? Watch this. And Bumby says, oh no. Really, watch this.
- [68:45]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [68:46]
Bill Duke
You know what I'm saying?
- [68:46]
Interviewer
Uh huh. And it's interesting cause there's different viewpoints on the idea of running numbers. Obviously some people. Vanessa Williams character isn't a fan of it. She feels like it's a Ponzi scheme, it's a scam. But it was a way for black folks at the time to make money.
- [69:04]
Bill Duke
Yes.
- [69:05]
Interviewer
As obviously you're directing this film and educating people about that time and about what running numbers was. Did you want to make sure you got both viewpoints into the film as helping people to understand what that was? Obviously it's since gone away, but how important was that for you to educate people about that business and what it meant to the black community at the time?
- [69:29]
Bill Duke
Numbers runners were seen as these small time criminals that da da da da da da. No, it was a big business and that's why? You know, Dutch wanted to come outtown because he saw the number of dollars that were being made not only every year, but every day, every week. And why should black folks be in charge of that? And Bumpy said, you know something? You stay in your place. And Dust said, I ain't got no place to stay. So Bumpy said, watch this.
- [70:07]
Interviewer
You know, on that set with such a phenomenal cast of actors, those actors do know you as an actor as well. So what is that energy like on set, having sort of to command the set? Or are you an actor's actor? Or how are you approaching each of these? Every single cast member is a legendary person after the other. How are you approaching each of them and trying to make sure you get the performances out of them that you need?
- [70:34]
Bill Duke
Well, you know, as I said before, you know, having a team of people that can really handle the overall vision of the film in terms of production, that you don't have to worry about, because the collaboration, you know, that they're going to perform in terms of all the scenes and the visuals, et cetera, that gives you time as a director to sit down with an actor and ask them a question. What is your vision of this character? How do you feel it fits into things? You know, it gives you time to actually do that, but without a production team, and you don't. You have to worry about. I mean, this location we have, we had to make a move, and how much time is it gonna take? And that takes, you know, that can overwhelm you. We have a great production team that takes care of all of that. You can sit down with an actor and talk about, what is your vision of this scene? I mean, what do you. What. What is this character trying to say?
- [71:46]
Interviewer
Yeah, I mean, I think it's so great working with actors who direct or directors who have acted before, because you're going to bring something to the set that every other director might not, because you know what it is to be in front of camera and have to be vulnerable and have to find it on the page.
- [72:07]
Bill Duke
That's a brilliant observation because there are a lot of directors that know nothing about actors, didn't know the technology. One of the first films I made was independent film, and I was. It was a young director. He doesn't work then. He doesn't know what actors deal with. And so I went up to him one day. I'm saying, hey, man, you know, I'm having trouble with this scene because I'm, you know, it's like, I get it, but there's something in the writing that doesn't bring me to. He says, oh, okay, make it more blue.
- [72:55]
Interviewer
Like, sad, as in blue upset.
- [73:00]
Bill Duke
I have no idea what he meant. Wow. But there are some directors that don't know how to deal with actors. They're great at the technology. But to get the performance out of you and to collaborate with you as an actor, I mean.
- [73:17]
Interviewer
Well, obviously, you've shown us that you know how to pull beautiful performances from so many different actors with different skill sets. I mean, the fact that you were directing on Sister act too, Whoopi Goldberg, who is a vet and a young, new, fresh actress in Lauryn Hill, or whether it be on Hoodlum, where you're having to direct the Cicely Tyson, who was already an icon in her own right at that time and still obviously working with younger actors on that set as well. So I think that's also such a superpower of yours that you're able to talk to any actor at any point in their career and be able to pull something from them.
- [73:53]
Bill Duke
Thank you.
- [73:54]
Interviewer
So it's a beautiful, beautiful thing. Before we get to this last credit, I did want to give you space to talk about Deep Cover and the soundtrack for that film. And you spoke about two particular musicians that volunteered their music, and that's a very rare thing in our business. Would you mind speaking about the soundtrack for Deep Cover and how it came together?
- [74:15]
Bill Duke
Well, Snoop and Dr. Dre, two heavyweights. I want to give a shout out to them because they had never put music in a movie before, and when they. They saw. They saw the movie and they believed in what I was doing and added their music. I want to say to them now, thank you. Thank you, thank you. Because it really added a lot in terms of the feeling and the mood of the movie, what they brought to the table, you know, and how we get a chance to work together again. Because it's like they still are brilliant, as you know, and that's what I'm saying. You know, it's like what I love about filmmaking at its best, when it's a collaboration, I mean, because what you see on screen, your name goes on that forever.
- [75:09]
Interviewer
Absolutely.
- [75:11]
Bill Duke
So you want it to be the best that you can make it, and to work with people who have a similar vision and get it, It's a real privilege. It really is.
- [75:24]
Interviewer
How important is music to your process when it comes to filming? Whether it be music cues in the film or score and soundtrack?
- [75:35]
Bill Duke
It is one of the most important things. If there's a scene that's going on and you're listening to the music, the score, you got a problem. But if the composer has created a sound of music that adds emotionally to the scene, that's a whole different craft. Yeah, yeah. Because there are certain films I watch now and I'm watching a scene and I hear more music than I. You know what I'm saying?
- [76:15]
Interviewer
Music may be distracted. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a delicate dance of, obviously you need music and you need score, but you don't want it to overpower, so.
- [76:25]
Bill Duke
That's exactly right.
- [76:26]
Interviewer
It's such a tricky. It's gotta make you feel, but not manipulate you.
- [76:31]
Bill Duke
No, no, no, no. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [76:32]
Interviewer
No, but I think, you know, people like a Snoop or Dr. Dre would want to add their music to what you've done. Because not just that film, I think, in particular, but everything you've done before that this conversation that we've been able to have, I think speaks to, I think, young black men of their generation. Understand how significant you are to culture, to cinema in front of and behind the scenes. And obviously those two, I'm sure, have seen Menace of Society probably more times than I have. But they know that you're that dude, you're that guy, you're that person that one can trust. Even the Hughes brothers coming straight to you and saying, look, we need you in this. I think it's always when the younger generation sees you and knows that you're for us and have always been for us. And as I come to your last credit, I think, which is a documentary which I think continues to speak to your mission and your message and how you continue to show up for us as a community and all of us, really, which is Dark Girls. I'd seen that film when it came out and I remember thinking how significant it was and how special it was that you wanted to tackle that subject matter. And I got the chance to watch it again and it just, again continued to be. Just moved by the fact that you were moved to make a documentary. Documentaries are not easy. They take a long time and they are not made to necessarily profit from. That's not the point of making documentaries. Trust me, I've done my fair share. What drew you to wanting to make a film about dark girls? Because you could have focused on maybe dark boys or dark men, but you wanted to speak to dark girls in particular. What was that that moved you to do that?
- [78:34]
Bill Duke
A relative of mine had a dark skinned daughter, like I think was 7 or 8 years old, and the teacher had put before her these different Color dolls on a paper, paper. And teacher asked her because there were a brown doll, a white doll and a dark dolls. And teacher asked her, which is a smart doll? It's a dark little girl put her finger on the light on the white doll. What does the pretty doll put a finger on the white doll. What if the scary doll put her finger on the black doll? What's the ugly doll put a finger in the black do? At that age, she was already considering herself ugly and dumb. And that encouraged me to, you know, point out from not only a present but an historical perspective all of the women of dark complexion that have contributed so much to our society, not only our community, but the world. And I mean like girls too, because I wanted people to know that our ignorance is not just confined to one color.
- [80:17]
Interviewer
Well, here's the thing I found about documentaries is that I think we usually go into them with an idea of what we think the journey will be or what we, the message we clearly want to communicate to the audience. But then, you know, after years of being on the doc and then you finally get it done, you put it out, you then kind of realize, oh, this is actually the epiphany I'm having or this is the revelation I'm having. I'm curious if that happened to you on this process of making this film. Going into it with an idea of what you wanted it to be. But then by the time you're at the finish line, you've had a whole new type of experience that you didn't expect.
- [80:55]
Bill Duke
Oh, no doubt about it. I mean, you know, I have an idea of, you know, interviewing dark skinned women or light skinned women and light girls with my vision, understanding, I think of what it would be. But sitting down in the interview and actually talking to young dark skinned girls about what they go through every day, not only from the outside world, but their own families and impacts you emotionally because you expect it, but you don't expect how deep it goes in terms of the pain that they feel. Their humanity is overlooked because of the color of their skin. They're not good enough. They're always going to be dumb. And the ones that are. It was. I learned a lot.
- [82:16]
Interviewer
I think the time that you spent, you know, interviewing all these young girls, a lot of women, it's clear you wanted to get their voices on record.
- [82:28]
Bill Duke
Yes.
- [82:29]
Interviewer
And you want to make sure they were heard. And I think it's just very, I think it's a beautiful thing that you were able to capture that and that we have it for the record. And that we can revisit it. And I was grateful to revisit it again myself. So I'm really appreciative of you and I know so many others are for making this film about people that identify as women, people who are dark skinned. People that may have felt like their voices weren't being heard or felt invisible. And there is something that speaks to their experience. So I'm grateful to you for that.
- [83:06]
Bill Duke
Thank you very much.
- [83:09]
Interviewer
My last question. What is your definition of a really great director?
- [83:16]
Bill Duke
A great director, in my belief, is someone who can give you a compelling visual experience that stays ahead of you. You don't catch up with them during the film. Visually, two, working on it. The arc of a script that has a beginning, middle and end. And you're making the movie for a reason. You have something to say. You want to say something. Not just blowing things up and. No, you have something you want to say. Number three, the ability to work with actors to understand what an actor really is. Not just someone who does what you tell them to do, but the collaboration with an actor. And then going back to my original point, other than making money, why are you making the film?
- [85:08]
Interviewer
Well, I think for the things that you directed, I think you all of that. What you just said speaks to how you show up on a set as a director. Because you do have a mission, you do have something to say. And you absolutely care about every actor on your set. And you want to make sure that they give the best performance they could possibly give. Because you know, it's forever. And your work, I think as a director and as an actor. And I also want to ask you what your definition of a great actor is. Because you're also a phenomenal actor. I think you really do a beautiful job of creating images that are lasting and that we want to continue to revisit. Whether it be a documentary about what it is to be a dark, complected young woman in America, whether it be a period piece about Harlem and running numbers, whether it be about sequel to a Sister Act, Back in the Habit, or television shows that we know and love where you bring your own stamp to it as well. I think you always show up with so much dignity and so much pride. And I also think a lot of grace and empathy.
- [86:14]
Bill Duke
Thank you.
- [86:15]
Interviewer
As well. If you don't mind, I want to make this my last question. What is your definition of a really great actor?
- [86:22]
Bill Duke
A great actor is a performer that doesn't act but becomes the character. Like my great teacher Lois Richards told me, after you learn all your lines fall into darkness, backward.
- [86:55]
Interviewer
I'm gonna receive that advice, and I'm gonna remember it, too. I'm glad we brought that back, because you are such a phenomenal actor.
- [87:02]
Bill Duke
Thank you.
- [87:03]
Interviewer
And I think it's rare to have one person that's really good at being a great actor and a great director. There are not many of you, but you are very rare. And your performances that I've got to relive and sort of witness again are all so memorable and so human and so impactful. And then the work that you do behind the camera is also memorable, impactful, and timeless. So thank you for the work that you do in front of the camera, because it's always stunning, the work that you do behind the camera, because it's something that kind of gave us memories that we'll forever hold onto. But I'm also grateful to the work that you do as a mentor. And I think, again, to take us back to Taraji, Asking you to. To be that support, to lend your expertise and your knowledge to her and her fellow actors, I think is really something that speaks to who you are as a human being as well as an artist. So thank you for all that you do and continue to do for us. We really appreciate you.
- [88:13]
Bill Duke
Thank you very much. And I want to say one thing to you before I leave. No, you don't. Up. Right.
- [88:24]
Interviewer
That's a cute.