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- [00:01]
A
Happy Mammoth is a wellness brand focused on women's health. Their top product, Hormone Harmony, is specifically made to help with hormonal changes during menopause and perimenopause. It uses adaptogens to support the body's stress response, keeping you balanced. And their whole line is made with women in mind, using premium ingredients tailored to our needs. Their gut repair supplement has thousands of five star reviews and supports digestion, skin, hair and nail health. Happy Mammoth really knows what women need, and we have an exciting code for our listeners. Visit www.happymammoth.com and use code LEGACYTALK for 15% off your first order sitewide. That's www.happymammother.com for 15% off.
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B
Lemonade. I kept laughing. I'm like, you better pull it together, baby. Come on, pull it together.
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C
I love that you slapped yourself. Oh, Legacy. Oh, Legacy.
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B
Oh. I introduced the cast to Nikki Giovanni. They didn't know what that was. I said, okay, we're gonna do ego tripping. I didn't clean house. I went and put it together, right? That's what I felt my job was, go put it together. He didn't even know I was coming for him. He ate those yellow grits. And then I started trying to make a meaty.
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C
You bake these grits?
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B
I bake these. You made yellow grits Homicide. I made yellow grits every day.
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C
Legacy, oh, Legacy. Can my first question to you be, are you a workaholic?
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B
I don't look at it that way because I guess you could say I'm addicted to what I do. If that is a workaholic. I love what I do, and I'm. I gravitate towards it. Even times when I know I gotta squeeze that in. But it's important. I'm measuring. I'm measuring the value of things. Honestly, I am trying to measure the value in what I bring and why they might need me to do something.
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C
You're always stretched too thin.
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A
Well, one, thank you for sitting down with me.
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C
I appreciate you.
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B
You know I love you. Come on now. Come on, now.
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C
I wouldn't be here without you. And I've been doing these conversations we had. Gina Prince, Bythewood here, Jada Pinkett, Amara Brock, Akil, They've all sat in that chair. And your name was uttered by all of them as being a part of their beginning. For a lot of us, you're not just the North Star, but I think you're also the water that sort of feeds us seeds. So you, at one point, were a seed, and you were really beginning in the stage. On the stage, in theater. And I was looking at your credits, and the sucky thing about theater is I can't go back and sit in the theater and watch it and experience it. I had to make do with the Internet.
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B
Those faded photographs.
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C
Look, look, look. Because I wanted to start there. And I think that was one of the things that I just. I love about theater, that it's in the moment. But I did find a video of you and Sweet Charity, which is where I want to begin.
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B
Oh, nice. Okay.
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C
So I saw somebody, thank God, got footage of you on that stage and sort of cut together, like, 18 minutes of you on stage. And so I just sort of sat and watched it. And I was thoroughly impressed and exhausted watching you on stage, because the choreography alone is. It's like you're dancing like the arenas do. You are singing, performing. Obviously, you were nominated for this performance. I was just curious, how did Charity come to you?
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B
So I had already been on Fame and on television, and I met a man named Joe Harris who had actually worked when I did west side Story. He was one of the producers, and they were thinking about Sweet Charity, unbeknownst to me, and I was actually in town. Vivian was an infant. And they asked would I come and have a meeting with Bob Fosse? I said, with Bob? Of course. I have a meeting with Bob Fosse. A meeting with him, because I had met him before when I was doing Raisin. That was the musical adaptation, Raisin Son. And he auditioned me to play the lead player. I would have been the first woman to play that part. Because after Ben, they didn't find somebody that had all of it. And he found me. He had me in there singing the score and everything. Then they found Ben Harney went to Man Martin. You know what?
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C
Yes, yes, yes.
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B
So we had a history, and he had me read a couple of scenes. He said, yeah, we could do this. I said, yeah, we could do this. Let's do this.
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C
Wow.
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B
So we did it. I learned a lot from him. What I learned from Bob, just that I took away as an actor, but directorially, he said to me, kid, I only have three steps, but I do it all with lighting. And I remember when I was in the closet scene, going through my transitions, I could feel the lights irising down. I could feel the lights were going where I was going emotionally. And that was something I didn't get to see, but I felt it, and I knew what he meant. So I kept that as a part of. I put that in my Repertoire, Gene pool.
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C
Yeah, my repertoire with Good Times. Did you sort of get bit by the multicam bug doing that?
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B
I was so excited to be on that show.
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C
I mean, JJ's love interest, come on.
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B
I know. Well, Ralph Carter had played my little brother in Raisin. And I was actually here in California, kind of bopping around, hanging out, and I was visiting with him and the casting director. While I was sitting there waiting. Jane Murray, that's her name, she came out and she saw me and she was like, are you an actress? I said, yes, ma'am. Well, are you here for the show? I said, well, I'm waiting for Ralph. She said, but do you act? I said, yes, we did the Broadway show together. She said, oh, you want to come in and try for this part? I said, really? I said, yeah. So I went right in there and then I got the part and there I was with Esther Rolle, John Amos. All of them. Yeah. And it was a two part episode where I was his junkie fiance.
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C
Yes. Revisited.
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B
In fact, Eddie Murphy would call me every time he came on again. I see you. You're on. You're getting ready to jump out that window. I see you. I'm like, shut up. There's such a fusion of theater and multi camera. It is like the best of both worlds because the audience is a character. Like in the theater.
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C
Yes.
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B
There's nothing real about the theater. Let's take people in there sneezing, phones going off, grunting, you know, laughing, talking back, sometimes talking back in the theater. So here in a multiple camera, you have an audience that's live, but you have cameras that are, you know, peeping in. So, yeah, I felt comfortable because of my theatrical.
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C
Got it experience. When I think about you, I think about leadership. And so when you're on set, do you just naturally fall into that role?
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B
Well, that last part is hard not to be in that role when you see things that need to be said, that need to be voiced. Why are you laughing? Why are you laughing? Because you have been with me and you know. Is that why you're laughing? Why are you laughing? Come on, stop.
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C
What's your sign?
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B
Capricorn. Why?
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C
Of course. Now we come to a part in this interview where we're going to try not to spend two hours on it. There's a lot of things we could spend two hours on. We're not going to do it, girl. We're not going to do it. You did a TV movie for Disney, ABC and Poly was about a little black girl coming to a town and Changing it. And I was a little black girl watching this.
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B
Yes.
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C
You know, movie on TV with my grandmother, with my mom, with my aunt, my older sister. It was also about a period of time when my grandmother and my mom were in their youth. You did something that really united us, but then also, you gave myself something that I could hold onto even into my adulthood. So my question to you about Polly is, what was your vision for that TV movie?
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B
Well, Lena, first of all, it's hard for me to just jump to that answer without hearing this beautiful backstory of your connection to Polly, to me, and what that did. That makes me feel so good. I can't begin to tell you because, you know, you do work, and you hope that it will touch.
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C
Yeah.
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B
I'm gonna cry. I'm gonna cry. I'm sorry. I'm gonna cry because it means so much that we do something that resonates and that makes a change and gives somebody a path. And look at you. You saw yourself as poly. You did. That's it. That's what I'm. I love that. That's what I wished I had had when I was a kid. But, I mean, I got to watch the wizard of Oz. I didn't see anybody that looked like me.
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C
I love the wizard of Oz, but.
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B
You know, I still loved it.
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C
Yeah. No, you gave us that. Not just me, you know, but I think I speak for so many of us about how just magical, amazing, timeless.
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B
Well, look at you now. Let's look at.
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C
Let's talk about what I'm doing.
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B
You. You went in. You went into Disney, that juggernaut, the biggest company in the world.
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C
Yes.
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B
I mean, Broadway, movies, you name it. Merchandising, theme parks. There's no company bigger.
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C
Yeah, they own poly. So I have to go there.
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B
Walked up in there. You went.
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C
I did not. What? Okay, what is this?
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B
Look, I don't know how you did it, but I know you went.
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C
Rishi was with me. Rishi.
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B
Okay.
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C
Rishi was with me. I did the emotional, but you were.
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B
Like, come on, give me this. This belongs to us. We need to take this and make it again. We need to put this out there. Little black girls need to see themselves on Broadway. Where are we on Broadway? Where are we in the theater? What are y'all doing? And you gangster the piece girl. And now we gonna go, and we gonna kill it.
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C
Well, we're grateful to Disney for giving us the permission to turn this into, hopefully, you know, a Broadway musical.
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B
I know, but that is everything. Just look at the line of that Building the circumstances. We go back into your story from that to this, and where you. That is how you build real character. Real people that resonate with the world. Real people that make a difference. You are such the person that I'm talking about.
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C
Well, you. You are the visionary. So it goes back to my question. What was your vision like? What the hell were you thinking when you said, okay, we gonna do this?
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B
Well, you know what? I was so excited because I was a kid in the 50s. I was a kid at 55. That's when it happens. I was five years old, sitting in front of a television, trying to find an image of myself wanting to replace Shirley Temple. I loved it because I knew the period, I knew the time. I was that kid, and I knew what that struggle was. Even though it still is a family friendly movie in the way that you can only go so far.
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C
Sure.
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B
But we'll go maybe a little bit further.
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C
Just a smidge.
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B
Just a smidge. But in that time, you can tell this story about a child. And it's so important that one child, one person can make such a difference.
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C
Did it ever feel overwhelming for you and did you ever feel this pressure that you had been given this opportunity? You couldn't mess this up.
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B
I didn't think that because I'd had such preparation doing Fame, I became, you know, fame was directing, choreographing, acting, always in it. And no, I felt like I was in my next skin. It was like the next step I should take. And after that, every studio in Hollywood called me, but no one gave me a movie. No one they couldn't believe, because my movie came like over 200 grand under budget.
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C
Wow.
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B
A musical with children. And I went and had meetings with everybody and could not. There was a basketball movie that I knew I was the best director for. There was a movie about these young men in prison. And I remember the guy that interviewed me, Beverly Hills. And I drove up there in my Jag and wearing my issei clothes. Come on. And it was about prison. And so I started rolling with him about what it was this, this, that and the other. He said, wow, you really seem like you really know this. You know how to do this? I said, I do. I said, I have family in prison. I know what that is. He said, well, I just wouldn't think. I said, what? I said, where do you live? He was a big producer, but he needed to learn.
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C
That's right.
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B
And so I just let him know that if you can produce it, why wouldn't I be able to direct it. It's part of my life that you don't know anything about.
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C
That's real.
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B
Anyway, I didn't get that job either.
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C
Well, what's interesting though is you have a long career in directing television though, so I know you probably wanted to get more into the features. But in looking at your resume, you've been the maestro of many a TV show. And that leads me to the next part about our inter that changed my life, which is a different world.
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B
Oh, Lena.
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C
Yes.
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B
And you're named Lena.
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C
My name got in there. I have Hillman Grad Productions. Yes.
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B
I mean, amazing.
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C
Yes.
- [14:01]
A
It's the holidays. And oftentimes this means overindulgence. The holiday parties, the hot chocolate and the overspending. And that's why I'm excited to tell you about our sponsor, Acorns. Acorns makes it easy to start automatically saving and investing for you, your kids and your retirement. Even during the holidays, you don't need to be an expert. Acorns will recommend a diversified portfolio that matches you. You don't need a ton of time. You can create your Acorns account and start automatically investing your money in just five minutes. Now Acorns is helping you build your financial future in the background so you can focus on your holiday shopping, parties, travel or whatever. You don't need to be rich. Acorns let you get started with the spare money you've got right now. That could be $5 a day or even just your spare change. That's right. Acorns can round every purchase you make up to the dollar and automatically invest your spare change for you. So that coffee you grab on the way to the mall? That's investing. And you can get bonus investments just for buying stuff that you need from the brands that you love. With Acorns, every single gift you buy this year could put more money into your investment account. It's like cash back, but the bonus investments have a chance to grow. This show is all about legacies and part of that responsibility is financial legacies. Acorns is a company that wants to support that legacy through easy Investing. Head to acorns.com legacytalk or download the Acorns app to start saving and investing for your future. Today, paid non client endorsement compensation provides incentive to positively promote Acorns Investing involves risk Acorns Advisors LLC, an SEC registered investment advisor. View important disclosures@acorns.com LegacyTalk Happy Mammoth is an innovative wellness brand dedicated to supporting women's health through thoughtfully designed supplements. One of their most popular products Hormone Harmony has gained a significant following online. It's a carefully formulated blend that uses science backed adaptogens, natural compounds that help the body adjust to physical and emotional stressors which can be especially beneficial during periods of hormonal change like menopause and perimenopause. Hormone Harmony is just one example of how all their products are crafted with women's needs in mind. Each supplement uses premium, carefully sourced ingredients that focus on specific wellness areas. They don't take a one size fits all approach, but instead design products that address real everyday challenges women face. Their gut repair supplement has received thousands of five star reviews and is designed to help regulate and improve the digestive system which is a foundation for so much else in our health. Happy Mammoth is committed to understanding women's needs and develops supplements that fit those unique health priorities. And we have an exciting code for our listeners. Visit www.happymammoth.com and use code LEGACYTALK for 15% off your first order sitewide. That's www.happymammother.com for 15% off.
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C
That show. It just, I remember who I was before and then I was someone else after A Different World I think is one of the most significant TV shows ever because it was very timely and it still remains timeless. And that's super hard to do. And you've done that multiple times in the course of your career. So I think you just tend to be led by your gut, your spirit, the ancestors.
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B
Yep.
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C
What about the show started to work after you got there. That wasn't working before you arrived.
- [17:33]
B
I think the biggest thing, Lena, was connecting that cast and giving them a voice. The cast needed to be heard. The cast needed to participate.
- [17:45]
C
That's right.
- [17:46]
B
Show to show. Because again, it's theater, it's live. It's like an audience. They're going to be in here in a minute, they're going to tell us, are they listening? Do they care? You know, how do they feel? So connecting the cast and then connecting them with the writers. Because I came in at a time where it was like the writers, every word was like they had laid a golden egg. And the actors just say what it is. Say the line. Say the line. Any actor is going to bring something to the table. I don't know a movie where Denzel Washington didn't bring something to the table. The table didn't have no hot sauce on it. If that's a way for you to understand. It did not. It did not. I looked at every show and Marcy Carson said, you're gonna watch every Show. I said, yeah, Marc, from the first season, I said, I gotta see what y'all did. And the first thing we did was brought in some new people. I said, you know, where's our Whoopi Goldberg? Who is that? Who is on the show even feels or looks anything like Whoopi? Where is that person? Where's our Maritala Moore? You know, so we found Charnell Brown. We found Cree Summers. And then a year later, I was on the streets of Paris and I found Garrett Dordan. I'm like, ooh, shakazulu, come on.
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C
Of course you brought him over.
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B
Opening up that cast and giving them freedom. I remember the first scene that we did together. Sinbad did something so funny. He was just doing a workout. The audience couldn't stop laughing because I let him do what was written. But then go further, which it needed it should you have someone that does that. You can't tell them how to do exactly what they're doing. You give them that blueprint, and then you go. I kept laughing. I'm like, you better pull it together, baby. Come on, pull it together.
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C
I love that you slapped yourself. What was important for you for the writers to get correct, you know, so you're talking about them standing up for things. What I think a lot of people love about watching the episodes again, even all these years later, is that the jokes are still solid, you know, with the commentary. Some of it still feels familiar to things we're still talking about. Now, how involved were you in that? Were you in the writers room, or were you mostly on stage? How engaged were you during the table reads?
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B
Very engaged in table reads. Never in the writers room. Only just to hear things and give ideas, to let them know we need to do things that have the integrity of a black college. With hbcu, all you all didn't go?
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C
No. Susan Fels Hill is a Harvard grad.
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B
And that's okay. And that's okay. You don't have to have gone, but you better go think about it. Go look at what's happening.
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C
But also, you and Susan were very tight.
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B
Very tight. The showrunner, it was the director. The best.
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C
How are you two working together?
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B
It was the best. We would talk about things and just do it. Like when we did the la, and she was young.
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C
How old was Susan at the time? She was, like, in her 20s.
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B
She was a baby, but she was strong. She was so smart.
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C
Oh, man.
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B
No such thing as a black college where they're not activated, engaged in what's happening in the politics and the economics of their community and the world and what's going on. You know, they gotta be involved. They gotta have a voice. I introduced the cast to Nikki Giovanni. They didn't know what that was. I said, okay, we're gonna do ego tripping. They had never heard of it. They didn't know about it.
- [20:59]
C
Wow.
- [21:00]
B
I mean, at Howard, we were born on that. We had. You know, they were all coming up and through there. Name one of them. That was the leaders. They all came to the campus of Howard University.
- [21:12]
C
Come on. How was the. I know the ending of that show was a little rocky, if you will. You know.
- [21:20]
B
Unceremonious.
- [21:22]
C
Unceremonious. Although there is an episode, though, where you guys are singing with Patti LaBelle. End of the Road, where there's a toast at the pit and Whitley and Duane are leaving. And there is also sort of supposed to be sort of a bit of a spin off with this sort of new generation.
- [21:39]
B
Well, there was actually an offer to do a spinoff with Whitley, Duane Cree, and Darrell Bell.
- [21:47]
C
Oh.
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B
And that would have been what? Friends became friends.
- [21:52]
C
Oh, okay. I thought there was something with the younger students that they were trying to do something with.
- [21:55]
B
They were probably doing that. But I know this was on the table.
- [21:58]
C
Oh, okay.
- [21:59]
B
This was on the table.
- [22:00]
C
Okay. This is news to me.
- [22:01]
B
This was on the table.
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C
We're gonna move to another sitcom that you actually were the lead of.
- [22:07]
B
Oh.
- [22:09]
C
I went and revisited this pilot this morning.
- [22:13]
B
Did you really? Oh, my God.
- [22:15]
C
In the house.
- [22:16]
B
It was funny.
- [22:17]
C
Let me tell you something. I laughed out loud. It was funny, like, eight times. I was glad to office. Like, this is actually hilarious. Cause I watched it in real time because, like, you know, as a kid, like, watching, like. But anyway, so I went back and revisited that pilot. Jackie is such an interesting character. You know, single. Well, now, newly. Newly divorced. Newly divorced, two kids. They come from a very affluent life.
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B
Mm.
- [22:44]
C
What's hilarious is the daughter is pissed about the house they're moving into. It is pretty big and solid. She's like, this is. I can't live here. And I'm like, this house is, like, big now. What was it like not being in the driver's seat?
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B
It was fun because Ms. Harvey was our showrunner, and she.
- [23:04]
C
Winifred.
- [23:04]
B
Yeah, Winifred Harvey was the showrunner. And I think she expected me to act a certain way, and I didn't. It was nice for me. I would open that script and read, okay, that's what I'm doing. Okay, fine. If it was one page or two or ten, I Was never like, I don't have enough to do, or I was happy to sit back and I had fun. And I mean, the only time I complained was, you know, when they wanted to cast my husband. I said, child, get me somebody that you want to go to sleep with. Get me Michael Warren. I got Michael Warren. I asked for him. I go far.
- [23:42]
C
Did you feel it at the time? Were you like, wow, this is working, and were you excited about this new chapter, following a Different World? Were you thinking, oh, now I'm going to be the cast?
- [23:53]
B
No, I enjoyed. I just enjoyed going to work and not. I enjoyed not telling everybody what to do.
- [24:00]
C
That's so interesting because I was so curious. Like, I was going in the house. Did come after Different Worlds.
- [24:06]
B
Yeah, after. Wow.
- [24:08]
C
Now we're gonna talk about. You have this long list of TV shows that you directed. It runs the gamut. It's black shows, white shows, funny shows, dramatic shows. How at home are you in the director's chair on the TV set?
- [24:22]
B
Very @ home. It's like my second skin. Lena. Yeah.
- [24:27]
C
I've watched you. I've watched you direct on tv.
- [24:29]
B
It's been my second skin. And what I enjoy is, I mean, certainly grazing out of it. When I do a new show, I like going in and sampling the DNA and finding out what is the DNA of that show. Because every show has its own DNA. Like, Scandal had its own cinematic style, and I was really excited to finally get over there. And how to Get Away was the present, the recent past, the past past, past, the future. You know, it would. That show would move around, and you had to be clear.
- [25:01]
C
Was that a challenge for you, working on Scandal?
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B
Scandal was exciting. Yeah. It was dynamic because I was working with wonderful DP and camera operators that were free. You say, I want this and I want that and this. And then they might find something and they would shoot it and. But it was also the cast, you know, Kerry Washington, all of them. What an incredible cast and the story. I just loved it so much. And I had such a crush on the President. I had such a crush on.
- [25:33]
C
You have a crush on everybody.
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B
I would call him Mr. President. Okay, I want you to. Could you walk over here? He would look at me and laugh? He was so wonderful, honey. I just never forget that scene where he took Carrie in the closet. Child up in the White House in the hallway. They went up in the closet.
- [25:52]
C
I know. I remember that. I'm like, Oooh, come on, ABC.
- [25:55]
B
Let me get over there.
- [25:57]
C
I mean, like, what do you love most about directing tv, because you are really fast and sometimes you do move pretty quickly. I've been on sets where you'll get a couple takes and like, that's it. You've never directed me before. It may happen in our lives.
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B
It will.
- [26:11]
C
The reason why I get nervous about you is because my best takes are always like the third, fourth, you know, sometimes fifth. And I've watched you. And after two takes, you're moving on. You got it.
- [26:23]
B
But this is the thing. I like to rehearse. See, I really use that.
- [26:27]
A
Do you always have time to rehearse?
- [26:28]
B
I rehearse, I rehearse. So I think that they're there. I don't want to shoot it if they're still fumbling. But no, when the actor says, debbie, I need another one. Okay, let's do it. I can do that. As long as I have what I need, I can go. I figured that. This is how I think the first take definitely belongs to the actor.
- [26:47]
C
The first one usually has something to.
- [26:48]
B
Do with the first. They should do what they do too. And then I'll say, okay, I'll give you an adjustment. You know, you know how to go there. I know you know how to go. Look at you.
- [26:59]
C
Look at you. Look, I'm ready. Give me a few takes.
- [27:02]
B
We gonna get you over there. Grey's Anatomy.
- [27:04]
C
Okay, but see, you not even directing me.
- [27:06]
B
I know, but I'm gonna be right there.
- [27:08]
C
You gonna be right there. Blue by the camera, like, uh huh. That's good.
- [27:11]
B
That's good.
- [27:11]
C
Jumping in. Speaking of coming to a movie that I went to go see on a field trip when I was in school that I think had such a huge impact on myself, every student in that school, and really changed us for the better. And that's Amistad.
- [27:31]
B
Oh, wow. Yes. Amistad. Yeah.
- [27:35]
C
How long did it take to get that one done?
- [27:41]
B
18 years.
- [27:43]
C
Ooh, you through that team.
- [27:45]
B
18 years.
- [27:46]
C
Worth it.
- [27:47]
B
Eight worth it. Every day, every hour, every year. Howard University bookstore is where I found that story. When bought that book called Amistad, a collection of essays by black academicians and religious leaders and all. Why was it called Amazon? The first preface page told the whole story of the mutiny, the court case, and then being sent back. I was like in tears on an airplane wondering, how is. How do I not know this story? How do I not know that we have a Supreme Court that would make such a ruling that was right and gave us our freedom to acknowledge that we're human? This story has to be a movie because I was like, in that place where I didn't think the books would catch up quick enough, but I knew we would go to the movies. So I started on this quest, and.
- [28:47]
C
Wow, what a team you pulled together. You want to talk about some of the people you grabbed, one of which I've worked with. Steven Spielberg.
- [28:54]
B
Oh, Steven, of course. That was the big fish. I call him my Obi Wan. Obi Wan Kenobi, because he was my only hope. Because I had been in everybody's office in every studio. I mean, black, white, all kind of producers. And nobody would, you know. Debbie, is it a musical? I was like, child.
- [29:15]
C
No, about the slave ship.
- [29:17]
B
You want me to sing Kill the White people? No, we're not doing that. Anyway, Steven Spielberg and I bonded over some yellow grits. We had kids in the same school, and he didn't even know I was coming for him. But when I saw him, I said, I have to get to him. He ate those yellow grits. And then I started trying to make a meaty.
- [29:40]
C
That's how you get it done. You made these grits?
- [29:42]
B
I made the grits.
- [29:42]
C
You made these grits.
- [29:44]
B
I promised that I made yellow grits every day.
- [29:46]
C
I've never heard them be called yellow. What? Because they have so much butter.
- [29:49]
B
Corn grits. They yellow.
- [29:51]
C
Oh.
- [29:52]
B
Lori McDonald got me that meeting with him. She and Walter Parks were running the company, and she said, debbie, it's gonna be quick. I said, okay, okay, okay. It was supposed to be like 10 or 15 minutes. She said, not long. And then I said, okay. I was there for an hour and a half with Mr. Spielberg, with Mr. Steven Spielberg, because he had so many questions. He was so inquisitive. He wanted to know about this. And I had done my homework. I had done it so long, it was like the back of my. It was right here, my fingertips. Larone Bennett's before the Mayflower was my bible. And he was my man, too. When he walked out, I knew we were gonna make this movie. Yes, I knew we were gonna make this movie. And there was a book called Black Mutiny that was about the real event. And I had gotten that book, and the author gave it to me for, like, $5 because he wanted it to be done, you know? So we. We did this movie. And, oh, my God, the cast is phenomenal.
- [30:50]
C
Can you talk about the cast? I mean, Anthony Hopkins.
- [30:52]
B
Anthony Hopkins.
- [30:54]
C
Like.
- [30:54]
B
I mean, Matthew McConaughey was phenomenal.
- [30:56]
C
Obviously.
- [30:57]
B
The lead Diamond Hunso.
- [30:59]
C
John Won Hunso.
- [31:00]
B
Chewie Ejiofor one Raz Adulte.
- [31:05]
C
Stunning.
- [31:06]
B
It was Pete Postlethwaite. He was amazing in that courtroom. Those actors were amazing. Y. He even really had a concept of how he wanted to shoot. He said, debbie, I want to do this differently than anything. He said, I'm not going to move the camera much. I might move it one time. And he did moved it at the end when Anthony Hopkins and Jaime were trying to figure out talking about what they were going to do in the Supreme Court. That was when he did it.
- [31:33]
C
And also that amazing closing statement. Anthony Hopkins character delivers, which obviously is such a big part of what leads them back home.
- [31:42]
B
And you know, what was the beauty of it? When we got this movie done, Stephen did a deal with a company and UPS that delivered a copy of this movie to every university in America. It was given to every library that got a copy of it. It was like that.
- [32:00]
C
And I mean, like, schools like ours were going to, you know, on field trips. How did you stay so focused during that entire journey until obviously it came out? Like, what does one do when year after year is going by? You know how important it is? How do you stay Zen during all that?
- [32:18]
B
Stay with it.
- [32:18]
C
Yeah.
- [32:20]
B
You know what, Lena? Honestly, every. Most of the men in my family, my dad, my uncles, they're all buried in the veterans cemetery. They have fought and died for this country. And I felt that it was for them that I needed to make this movie happen. This. Tell this story, because this is the story of. Of these black men who are powerful. And how can they get out? How can they get back to their family? How do they help us, all of that? I knew I was doing it for.
- [32:50]
C
Them, and in essence, you were actually doing it for us, for all of us.
- [32:54]
B
Yeah. Yeah.
- [32:55]
C
So we thank you. I appreciate that. Thanks for fighting the good fight. Now we land on where you are now, which is Grey's Anatomy, another show that really shifted things for all of us in this industry. How has Grey's Anatomy changed your life?
- [33:13]
B
It's been incredible. I was so happy to finally be asked. I met Shonda Rhimes.
- [33:20]
C
This is your first time being. This is your first time being a producer and director. You were producing direct on A Different World.
- [33:23]
B
Yeah, I was producing and directing, but that show was a big show, hit show, but nobody had called me over there. And she was a dada parent. Her daughter was in my school, and I just would say hi and keep going because she deserved anonymity to be there as a mom and not be Shonda Rhimes, you know, and she was that. She'd just be very patient sitting there reading her books. And then one day I got the call. Debbie, they want to rv. I said, well, it's about time, child. Let me get over there. So I went over there and it was wonderful. Patrick Dempsey, Ellen Pompeo, they all were so excited that I was there, and it gave them a boost of energy. We laughed a lot. They hadn't. I don't think they had laughed in a while. I don't know what was going on before I got there, but I bought a joy. Patrick Dempsey was in fifth position. Perfect fifth position. I said, oh, you were ballet dancer. Don't be trying to hide. He started kicking his leg and singing Fame. I said, stop it. They're not gonna respect me. Don't do that. Don't do that.
- [34:26]
C
Thing about it is you're such a. So central to that show now, and it's definitely in this sort of new. It's gone through many eras, but it's continuing. And I think it takes so much for you to keep that train chugging along, keeping everybody happy. I know you're juggling a lot of people, personalities and all that kind of stuff, but you do a really beautiful job. Here's the. We've talked so beautifully about your career and looking at all these things again, whether it be Amistad, a Different world, obviously, Grey's Anatomy, fame. What I realized in sort of stepping back is that I don't know any other entertainer that has a career as varied as this. I'm curious, who were the people that you looked to? Were there any influences? Had someone laid a blueprint that you could sort of mimic?
- [35:14]
B
Well, you know what, Lena? When I was in high school, I was voted the most versatile in my class.
- [35:21]
C
That makes sense.
- [35:21]
B
And I was always doing different things. I remember when I was in high school, my boyfriend was on the football team, I was a major, and I was in ballet class, and I was on the honor roll. I was serving all of these things. And I was my mother's child, which was also a whole nother realm of my experience.
- [35:43]
C
Mother's office. Someone I think is iconic visionaries. Yeah.
- [35:46]
B
So I was always able, from early on, able to do multitasking. Different things shift gears. I remember when I wanted to go so bad to the circus, and Mama says, no, you're going to go over here. But Mom, I don't want to go see that. And it was a dance company, an Indian Hindu dance company. That was amazing. I had no idea how much I was going to love it. I was fighting and kicking, but I learned that it's not always what? Not always the path that you think is right in front of you that you ought to take. Try some of these things and see how you can expand your encyclopedic understanding and vision of the world and how it keeps you excited about what you do. Yeah. So for me, I've. I have multitasked my whole life, I think.
- [36:37]
C
So there was no particular entertainer that you looked to?
- [36:40]
B
There was no one.
- [36:41]
C
Because Sammy Davis Jr. Is someone I love and look at, and I think he was sort of all around entertainer.
- [36:46]
B
Yeah. Sammy is somebody that I knew and loved and couldn't imagine anyone when I was in his presence. He did my special. It was called Dancing in the Wings. You may not have seen that. Put. I got to get a YouTube channel.
- [37:00]
C
Yeah.
- [37:00]
B
And he. I said, I want you to come and play the spirit of the dance. He said, am I dead? I said, no, you're there to inspire us. You inspired us. I don't know anybody that I could see that was directing, singing, dancing, all of these things. Choreographing.
- [37:19]
C
Ah, you're.
- [37:20]
B
I didn't. I just was looking at all the things that attracted me that what I wanted to do, you know, I get that.
- [37:29]
C
Yeah. It sounds like. I don't think that you had a blueprint. I think you created one for so many of us. You. You became a blueprint.
- [37:37]
B
Yeah.
- [37:37]
C
You became the thing that you wanted to see.
- [37:39]
B
Well, this is the thing. I was in that aisle where I could go down this aisle and all these other things were coming off the shelf. I'm in this aisle, as you know. Yes, the dancer, actor. But I was paying attention, learning about the cameras. And so then the choreography was what I asked for when I took Fame. I said, I'll be in the show, but I want the choreography. They said, ah, you can have it. They didn't care about it. I knew that was what I cared about. And that led me to directing and then going down that road, started directing and then more directing shows and then.
- [38:12]
C
Producing and then producing.
- [38:14]
B
I became a producer on. On Fame. That was my first real producing job.
- [38:19]
C
Right.
- [38:19]
B
And you know, when I. By the time I did A Different World, you know, Cosby and Marcy Carson, they told me, whatever title you want. I said, I'll keep it simple. They said, because they gave me the power to fire anybody I wanted and do all of that nice clean house here, I didn't clean house. I went and put it together.
- [38:39]
C
Right.
- [38:40]
B
That's what I felt my job was, go put it together. Because they were so many Wonderful people there.
- [38:45]
C
Right.
- [38:46]
B
Wasn't my job to clean houses, my job to find out how to put it together.
- [38:49]
C
I love that. I think that's what you do. You build so many bridges. And also, what I love, too, about you is that it's not just about black folk. You know, it is, but it's about all of us. And that can be seen, whether it be Paulie and Amistad.
- [39:05]
B
Yeah.
- [39:06]
C
You're sort of showing us that we need each other.
- [39:09]
B
We do. We were having this talk at a fundraiser for Kamala that I was talking about being a kid and what I saw in segregation, racism, and the horror things I saw. But I also talked about how we got to that polling station because of a diversity of people that helped. It wasn't just us by ourselves. Everybody was pulling together. That's what we need now more than ever.
- [39:38]
C
Absolutely. Last question. What's your definition of a great entertainer?
- [39:44]
B
Oh, someone that is still there. When they leave, their image is so strong, they're finished. And they're right. They're still there. You know, Michael Jackson had that. Sammy had that. Lena Horne, who leaves you but never leaves you. That. That's greatness to me.
- [40:07]
C
Well, that's you.
- [40:08]
B
Oh, okay. I don't know.
- [40:10]
C
That's you as.
- [40:11]
B
You, too.
- [40:11]
C
No, that's you.
- [40:12]
B
Okay.
- [40:13]
C
And I think, you know, it's been such a joy just to have this conversation and go down memory lane and seeing how your name continues to come up. I think you're that for so many of us, you're there not just when you leave, but you're sort of embedded into our DNA. Yeah. And as I look at all of the things that you've done and really stood back and looked at your career, I had to ask. I said, who influenced her? How did she get here? And I think you were a transformer in your generation. Meaning you didn't just sort of do what had been done before, but rather you did something that hadn't been done before. And you gave so many of us permission to follow behind you. And you also don't want us to stay in your shadow. You really do want us out front.
- [41:02]
B
Well, that's what I'm about to say, because look at you. You have, like, light speed. I mean, you're so amazing in the way you think and the way you articulate and the way you bring people together and the way people respond to you is why they send those private planes, because they want you to come up in that high secret meeting and tell them what's right. And that's why I'm calling you when something happens. Leaning no, no, Debbie, no. Stop. Don't do this. You are the Deep Throat for the whole world. That's who you are.
- [41:35]
C
I like the way that sounds.
- [41:37]
B
Yeah. Because we know there's someone that understands the real big picture. There's not enough people that are looking at the real big picture. They're looking at themselves. Unfortunately, they are in the big picture, but you're looking at. And so I love who you are and where you sit in this industry and how you represent, and that makes me feel so good that I've had any little bit of part of anything of who you have become. You had a lot a little part because, honey, you were in the making already. Because you have to see, like, I saw Shirley Temple. I'm like, I want to do that.
- [42:19]
C
Wow.
- [42:19]
B
You saw Polly. You were like, yes. You saw that. It's the same kind of thing, but.
- [42:25]
C
I also revisit it again and again and again. I think that, to me, is something I always wanted my work to be, is that people go back to it. And I think that's really what I always remember from you. What I take from you is, yeah, you're moving fast and you're doing things really quickly, but you're so intentional about the work that it. It lasts so well. Thank you.
- [42:48]
B
Thank you. Thank you, Ms. Lena Waite. I adore you.
- [42:52]
C
I love you.
- [42:52]
B
I really do. I do.
- [42:54]
C
That's a good show.
- [42:55]
B
Okay, I'm gonna make you some yellow grits.
- [42:56]
C
Okay. First of all, can they be sweet?
- [42:59]
B
Yes.
- [42:59]
C
Okay.
- [43:00]
B
With brown sugar?
- [43:01]
C
Sure.
- [43:02]
B
Yeah. Okay. I got you, Legend.
- [43:04]
C
Thank you.
- [43:05]
B
Thank you.