Building a Legacy with Lela Rochon

Summary

Legacy Talk with Lena Waithe: "Building a Legacy with Lela Rochon"

Date: September 23, 2025
Podcast: Legacy Talk with Lena Waithe
Host: Lena Waithe (Hillman Grad & Lemonada Media)
Guest: Lela Rochon

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Overview

This episode of Legacy Talk with Lena Waithe is a deep-dive celebration of Lela Rochon's pioneering place in Black cinema and television. Lena Waithe, Emmy-winning creator, conducts a heartfelt, in-depth retrospective of Rochon’s career—unearthing stories behind iconic roles (Sunshine in "Harlem Nights," Robin in "Waiting to Exhale," and more), exploring the burdens and blessings of being a Black on-screen beauty, and honoring Lela’s wide-ranging talents beyond her looks. With candor and warmth, they discuss how Lela navigated typecasting, fought for meaty roles, and left an indelible mark on Hollywood—often breaking through barriers for Black actresses who followed.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

Early Beginnings and Inspirations (00:51–09:10)

• Lena’s Tribute: Waithe reveals she's named after Lena Horne, noting Horne, Dorothy Dandridge, and Rochon herself form a lineage of Black women whose beauty was inspiring, but also a heavy mantle.
  • Quote: “Your beauty is more than skin deep. And I feel like, especially looking at your work, there's an understanding of who you are and where you come from and the significance of your presence...” (00:56 – Lena)
• First TV Roles: Lena spotlights "Amen" as her first memory of Rochon. Lela reminisces about being on set with Sherman Hemsley (from "The Jeffersons") and reveals she did not come from an actor’s background—originally majoring in journalism with dreams of being Barbara Walters.
• Music Video Era & Transition to Acting: Lela landed her first break in music videos (19 y.o.), leading to her first acting job in "A Bunny's Tale" (as Bunny Charlotte).

Navigating Hollywood, Typecasting, and Iconic Roles

Harlem Nights: Sunshine and Its Aftermath (09:10–17:20)

• Getting the Role: Rochon details auditioning thrice before Eddie Murphy handpicked her to play Sunshine.
  • Quote: “Eddie was directing… I read three times… and he handpicked me for that. For me, a feature film, Eddie Murphy film at that time, with Red Foxx, Della Reese... Legends. I was excited.” (09:25 – Lela)
• Impact: The movie felt huge for Lela, but didn’t lead to immediate follow-up roles—highlighting the challenges for young Black actresses, even after major successes.
• “At 24, Black female leading… no follow ups, no roles, basically. So what do you do? You go back to television.” (13:33 – Lela)
• Disconnect from Industry: She recalls approaching Arsenio Hall for late-night exposure, only to be told she wasn't "big" enough.
  • “Later never came.” (17:39 – Lela)

Boomerang: Ride Again with Eddie Murphy (22:18–33:53)

• Back with Eddie: Initially considered for the lead, Lela was offered the comedic supporting role "Christy." She shaped her character’s iconic style (all-white dog walking scene), pushing for wardrobe and creative control.
  • “I want to be monochromatic…had to fight for it because you don’t wear white on film.” (27:57 – Lela)
• Comedy as Power: Deliberately played Christy as an airhead, finding inspiration in Lucille Ball:
  • “She’s dumb…she’s dead ass serious. That’s why it works.” (32:40 – Lela)

The Challenges of Being “The Beauty” (33:49–39:47)

• On-Screen Beauty as Double-Edged Sword: Lela discusses how industry expectations (and limitations) for Black women of a certain look are both a gift and an obstacle:
  • “You have to be good. Because your looks will fade. At the end of the day, you have to be talented.” (93:53 – Lela)
• Fighting Typecasting: Her ambition came from needing to prove she was more than a pretty face. Roles were rarely written for Black beauty with comedic timing.

Television Career: Sitcom Guesting, The Wayans Brothers, and “Rock” (18:21–39:47)

• Sitcoms as Bridgework: From “Facts of Life” to “Amen,” then “Rock” (meeting Loretta Devine) and “The Wayans Bros.” Lela reflects on being cast mostly as the girlfriend, and the grind to land a regular sitcom role.
  • Quote: “I just wanted stability and a hit sitcom. You would think it would be easy. It was rough.” (34:50 – Lela)
• Friends set her straight: “Are you crazy? You don’t have a job.” (35:47 – Lela’s friend)
• Ultimately, she leaves “The Wayans Bros.” to do “Waiting to Exhale,” orchestrating a complicated schedule to juggle both projects.

Waiting to Exhale: Breakthrough and Transformation (36:59–74:21)

• How She Got the Role: Lela tells a wild tale involving the wardrobe stylist calling Terry McMillan in real time.

  • Quote: “She calls from the phone in the dress room. It’s Terri. She goes, ‘Oh, she wants to talk to you.’ ” (40:17 – Lela)

• Audition Prep: Goes all-out wearing a wig—ahead of its time for Black actresses—to match Robin’s look from the book, leading to an unforgettable audition.

  • “When I pulled the wig out at the screen test, when the studio watched it, the room erupted.” (45:11 – Lela)

• Exploring Robin’s Depth: Shifts her understanding of Robin from “dingbat” to a complex, vulnerable woman seeking love, connecting Lela’s own life to the character.

  • “I was connecting to [Robin] in my personal life… Am I your girlfriend or am I just somebody you want to show off as a date?...” (47:09 – Lela)

• Signature Scenes: Lena zeroes in on three scenes—Robin & Wendell Pierce’s sweaty sex scene, a vulnerable poolside abortion confession with Whitney Houston, and the Romeo & Juliet balcony confrontation with Michael T. Williamson.

  • Lela’s process was shaped by Forrest Whitaker’s actorly direction, real-life experience, and a lot of improvisation.
    • “It was hard… but we got through it. You never always let your friends know what you really feel.” (65:24 and 68:39 – Lela)

• Impact: The film changed Lela’s life, finally giving her a character with a true arc and opening doors for Black-led romantic comedies.

  • “That’s the first time I had a character that changed from beginning, middle to end, and had an arc. Four leads, four Black female leads. It changed everything.” (74:10 – Lela)

Further Film & TV Highlights

Miss Evolving: “Mr. and Mrs. Loving” (74:51–84:15)

• Never Knew the Story: Lela knew nothing about Loving v. Virginia or Mildred Loving before the film; took pride in bringing real-life complexity to the small screen. Special moments included speaking with the real Mildred after filming.
  • “I felt like I was walking onto that set at the time that I was supposed to walk onto it… I would not have been ready before that to work with somebody like [Timothy Hutton].” (81:45 – Lela)

Gang Related, Why Do Fools Fall in Love, and Any Given Sunday (85:00–113:02)

• Gang Related (with Tupac): Marked a shift—Lela could finally pursue (and win) roles originally written for white actresses. She researched and trained hard for her pole-dance scenes, was nervous working with James Earl Jones, but ultimately earned his respect.

  • “My agent convinced them… She’s a stripper. She can be anybody.” (86:28 – Lela)

• Why Do Fools Fall in Love: Notes the competitiveness and camaraderie of working alongside Vivica Fox and Halle Berry, plus challenges with constant recasting. Despite a rocky shoot and box office, the film has become a cult favorite for Black audiences.

• Any Given Sunday (Oliver Stone): Lela fought hard for a smaller but pivotal role, working with Jamie Foxx and under an intense Oliver Stone.

  • “To be in an Oliver Stone film… there’s no faking it, period.” (104:09 – Lela)
  • “She’s eating you up, man, come on!” (Oliver Stone to Jamie Foxx) (105:08 – Lela)

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On Being Overlooked Despite Success:
  • “Often I have felt overlooked and forgotten. The fact that you see me, and you see me here and you invited me here means the world to me.” (117:54 – Lela)
• On Surviving Hollywood as a Black Beauty:
  • "Your looks will fade. At the end of the day, you have to be good. You have to be talented." (93:53 – Lela)
• On Breaking Barriers:
  • “[Exhale] was the first time I had a character that changed from the beginning, middle to end, and had an arc. And so four leads, four black female leads. It changed everything.” (74:10 – Lela)
• On Awards:
  • “If any actor says it’s not important to them, they’re lying… you want to be acknowledged for your work, but you want to be deserving of it, too.” (83:41 – Lela)
• On Fighting for Authenticity:
  • “If I’m right for it, I’m gonna give you my best… To write your bio of your character, to make it up. Who are you, where you come from, who do you want…?” (116:07 – Lela)

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Notable Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:56 — Lena’s homage to Black beauty and Lela’s cultural lineage
• 09:25 — Lela describes getting cast in Harlem Nights
• 13:33 — The letdown after Harlem Nights
• 17:39 — On not having a “team” and industry obstacles
• 22:18 — Boomerang, being typecast, and creative control
• 32:40 — On playing Christy as “dumb”—serious comedy inspiration
• 36:59 — Entering “Waiting to Exhale”
• 40:17 — The fortuitous phone call with Terry McMillan
• 45:11 — The wig reveal in her audition for “Waiting to Exhale”
• 47:09 — How personal experience informed the role of Robin
• 65:24 — Vulnerability in the abortion confession scene
• 74:10 — Legacy of “Waiting to Exhale”
• 81:45 — Growing as an actress before “Mr. & Mrs. Loving”
• 93:53 — Industry lessons about beauty fading and talent remaining
• 104:09 — The intensity and honor of working with Oliver Stone
• 117:54 — Lela opens up about feeling overlooked and being honored by Lena’s acknowledgment

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Final Reflections

Throughout the episode, Lela Rochon reflects on the peaks and valleys of a groundbreaking career—navigating challenging industry dynamics, confronting colorism and typecasting, and forging a multidimensional legacy as more than just a beautiful face. Lena Waithe provides insightful, emotionally resonant questioning, centering legacy-building, resilience, and the inspiration Black women in entertainment give, generation to generation.

“You cannot deny our beauty and you can't deny our talent and you can't deny that we existed because you can't look away from her. And she is one of ours.” (117:54 – Lena)

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SUMMARY BY SECTION

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Early Career: From Journalism to Breakout Roles (00:51-09:10)

• Lela did not plan to act; her background was in journalism and PR.
• Entry into acting was serendipitous via music videos and eventually TV.
• TV provided early “training by fire,” particularly multicam sitcoms.
  • “I wasn’t one of those people who grew up, 'I’m gonna be an actor.'” (04:09 – Lela)

Harlem Nights & Its Aftermath (09:10-17:20)

• Sunshine role felt career-defining, but did not propel her into endless opportunities.
• Industry limitations on Black actresses: “no follow up, no roles.”
• Recalls being denied access to high-profile platforms post-movie.

TV and Sitcom Experience (18:21-39:47)

• Numerous guest spots on iconic Black shows, struggling to secure lasting stability.
• Left “The Wayans Bros.” for “Waiting to Exhale” after legendary hustling and friendship with the show's stylist unlocked opportunity.

Waiting to Exhale: The Cultural Shift (36:59-74:21)

• Lela’s big break after TV: “I wanted to be one of these women,” she recalls about reading the book years earlier.
• Detailed audition story, including her inventiveness and determination to embody Robin.
• Role mirrored Lela’s real-life feelings of being desired but not fully embraced.
• Signature film scenes dissected: sex scene, abortion confession, and the devastating love triangle.
• Impact on Lela’s career and on Black women’s cinematic representation.

Dramatic Depth: Mr. & Mrs. Loving (74:51–84:15)

• Played a real historical figure for the first time; navigated the responsibility and emotional challenge.
• On learning from co-star Timothy Hutton and the importance of nonverbal acting.

Breaking Norms: Gang Related & Interracial Roles (85:00–94:26)

• “Gang Related” and “Why Do Fools Fall in Love” showcased her expanding range and ability to win non-traditional roles.

Any Given Sunday: Oliver Stone’s Perfectionism (104:09–114:33)

• The thrill and stress of working with Oliver Stone; high rehearsal standards; competitive energy with Jamie Foxx.

Legacy, Self-Image, and The Real Work (116:07–End)

• Lela reiterates her dogged pursuit to be seen as more than beautiful—she sought range and depth.
• Acknowledges feeling overlooked but treasures conversations and tributes within her community.

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Closing

This interview cements Lela Rochon as a vital part of Black Hollywood’s legacy—not only for her iconic characters, but for the groundwork she laid for future generations. Her honesty and wit, paired with Lena Waithe’s incisive admiration, create a moving oral history on the power and pitfalls of being a trailblazer.

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“If I’m right for it, I’m gonna give you my best. In every moment, I’m gonna give you my best work. I’m never gonna be unprepared, and I’m gonna really try to come up with a character. I think that’s the fun thing… all that’s interesting to me.”
(116:07 – Lela Rochon)

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[End of Summary]

Transcript

[A]

Lemonade. I think what happened at that time is 24 year old actress, black female, leading, you know, lady. No follow ups, no roles, basically. So what do you do? You go back to television. Legacy. I'm getting the opportunity before I'm really trained to do it. And I think that's what made me so ambitious. I wanted to prove myself. All right, you know, you're the number one. Get what you want. We cool. You have to rise above it because at the end of the day, what you have is your work on film forever. When I spun around, I saw that head shaking. I said, oh, shit, he's nuts.

[B]

And this is his show.

[A]

This is his show.

[B]

Legacy.

[A]

Oh, Legacy.

[B]

All right. Well, hello, Leila.

[A]

Hello, Lena.

[B]

Thank you so much for doing this.

[A]

Thank you for having me. I was flattered.

[B]

I'm honored to be talking to you today about your phenomenal legacy, your amazing career and all the work that you've done up until this point. I'm sure you'll continue to grace our screens. But as I was even thinking about you and your career this morning, I was thinking about my own namesake, who I'm named for. I am named for Lena Horne. And I also, I mean, I also think about Dorothy Dandridge and I think about you. I think that you are very much in that lineage, being an on screen beauty whose beauty is more than skin deep. And I feel like, especially looking at your work, there's an understanding of who you are and where you come from and the significance of your presence on a big screen and sometimes a small screen. But you also. I think about on screen beauties as something to aspire to, something to look at, something to dream about. And I think that you have been that consistently for so many of us. And I think that can also be a burden to bear. And I think it probably isn't always as fun as someone might think it is. So I'm excited to talk to you today. It's a blessing and a curse, I'm sure. I'm sure. Usually I like to start these interviews with a project where I first saw the person where I first laid eyes on you. And for me, I used to watch sitcoms a lot as a kid in the 90s, and it was just sort of a way of life. I just was always hearing a laugh track and seeing. And a lot of black sitcoms as well, which I'm really grateful for. Cause I did see myself as a kid. I saw black folks, and this was a particular sitcom that my family and myself loved a lot. And I think it was actually an unsung sitcom. It's called Amen.

[A]

I did not think that was. I did not see that coming.

[B]

Yes, Amen was a staple in my house. That theme song, Sherman Hemsley, like, I knew about, obviously, the Jeffersons, but Amen was something that my sister and I got. Got to really meet Sherman Hemsley on. And you play a young bride.

[A]

I played a young bride coming in with Silk Kozak. Yes, yes, Kosark.

[B]

Yes, exactly. Who would pop up on A Different World and other things like that. And so it's just a quick pop. But you are so light and effervescent and beautiful. And that is actually the first time I saw you. But when I looked back at your resume and I started preparing for this interview, I said, there she is. There she. She's right there. And I was curious, what was that like for you, being on that set and looking at Sherman Hemsley, who I'm sure you were familiar with, and having to be surrounded by all that amazing talent on Amen?

[A]

You know, it's trippy because I grew up watching the Jeffersons, and I've watched Amen, obviously, like, everybody but. What's his name? The Reverend Cleavon Clifton Davis.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Growing up, Anna Marie Horsford, Streets of New York, maybe, like, I watched all of them. So for me, I was always sort of in awe, a fan, but quiet because, you know, I didn't want to get found out because I didn't really know what I was doing. I didn't really, you know, I wasn't one of those people who grew up, I'm gonna be an actor when I grow up. That was not me. That was not my story, not my tail. I majored in journalism. I also have a minor in public relations, and I wanted to be Barbara Walters. That's kind of what I thought I would be. And I danced for fun. And when I was 19, I ended up auditioning and getting a music video. Music videos were brand new. Vandross, Luther Vandross, Lionel Richie. And those were like, the first ones that played for a million years. And so then people were just like, well, can you act? Sure. Yes, I can. I'm lying. I couldn't act. But I went and studied after that, you know, and I ended up being a theater minor and got my first job, actually, as a sophomore in college. A Bunny's Tale with Kirstie Alley.

[B]

Wow. So did you audition for that part on Amen? Okay, so how did you hear about it?

[A]

Did you have an agent at the time? Yeah. Amen. Was actually later. I think I was probably. Yeah, I was probably 24, 25. My first job, I was speaking lead. It was an ABC TV movie called Bunny's Tale.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

A true story about Gloria Steinem, when she went undercover as a bunny in the club. And I was Bunny Charlotte, the black Bunny. And that was my first acting job.

[B]

Wow. See that one? I wasn't. Probably wasn't old enough to watch that one.

[A]

Oh, no, probably not.

[B]

It was on constantly. And it was just so nice to see you. What do you remember from that day of filming?

[A]

Not a lot. I remember a week, and what I remember best about that week was getting to know Anna Maria Horsford.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And her being so nice to me. Like, nice. Like, I had a boyfriend I was going to see in the cold, and she lent me her fur coat. I was like, really? Are you sure you're gonna lend me your front clothes? Yeah. You need to take this for the weekend. I want you to look good, you know, Emery. And I was like, okay. And I brought it back on Monday. Wow. She drove us to McDonald's in her, like, fancy Aston Martin or something. I was just. I just sucked up in it. Like, yeah, girl, show me. Show me the ropes.

[B]

So it felt fun. It felt exciting. Wow. How was it for you being in front of that live audience?

[A]

No pressure. You know, I didn't have a lot to do. I just observed.

[B]

So you kind of got a little. Kind of got baptized by fire? Excuse the pun.

[A]

Oh, always.

[B]

Wow. Okay. That's amazing. Cause also, we've talked on this show a lot about multicams and, like, acting, and that comes up again later for you, but it kind of was. Was that your first multicam gig?

[A]

No, my first multicam actually was the Facts of Life.

[B]

Right. Okay. Okay.

[A]

I played sorority girl.

[B]

So you were a little bit used to that. Because the thing about multicams, I think people don't always realize is how loud it can be. And it's almost like athletes at a game where you're performing, but there are people watching and making noise, and you have to sort of zone into what you're doing. And I always find it to be very interesting when I'm watching actors, when I'm on a multicam set, because it is so loud, it is so busy, but you have to just zone it all out and focus.

[A]

And I think what was great then is we had a lot of rehearsals. You know, they got down to four days. Four. Five days. Three days, you know, but we did five days. And so by Friday, you knew it. And you knew it backwards and forwards. And there's two shows, so you have to wait for laughter. You have to find your light. You have to hit your mark. You can't be nervous. It's a lot. You know, sitcoms were a lot of pressure in a way, but I never felt the pressure because I was the guest star.

[B]

Right. You feel like you're a guest in somebody else's house. Awesome. That's amazing. Well, this next credit we're going to talk about is a very special movie in that it means so much to black people. And I think that over the years, it continues to mean even more. And you are in it for a very short period of time. Hmm. And you're wearing a yellow dress. And it's just. I like to call it a miracle, the fact that this movie even happened and the way in which you show up in a film and I'm wearing.

[A]

Yellow all the time.

[B]

I mean.

[A]

Because.

[B]

Your name is Sunshine.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And we're talking about Harlem Nights.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

How does this. Amazing. It's interesting. I don't believe in small roles or small parts. We always know that's not true. But how does this miracle of a role manifest in your life?

[A]

I mean, it's funny you say small roles, because for me, that was huge. It was huge. It was big, you know, because I think Eddie had done Coming to America right before that, and I wasn't able to get an audition for that. And by the time Harlem Knights came around, you know, Robbie Reed was casting, and, you know, we had a person of color casting who knew who we were, and she got me in on that. And Eddie was directing, which was another thing. And so, you know, as usual, they're seeing everybody. And he. I read three times I tested with two different guys, and he handpicked me for that. And so it was huge. Like, for me, a feature film, Eddie Murphy film at that time, with Red Fox, Della Reese, like legends, Richard Pryor, Legends. I was excited. And there were only two females in it, really three. So it was a big, big deal. Everybody wanted the Sunshine role in Eddie's love interest, but he was very specific on what he wanted.

[B]

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[A]

What was I thinking? Well, you know, I read the parole and, you know, it was a lot of pressure. Sunshine and the breakdown said, said real life Jessica Rabbit. And I said, real life Jessica Rabbit, what would that mean? And I said, you know, you see Jessica Rabbit as a cartoon. So I tried to look as sexy as I thought I could look. You know, I wore a vintage dress because it was the 40s. I had this beautiful sort of white sequence, Marilyn Monroe type dress on. I had the big heels on. Because he said she was also supposed to be super tall. Super tall. And then inside, eternally, I thought she would have the energy of Marilyn Monroe. So that's where it came. Richie. I was. That was my version of Marilyn Monroe. That was my interpretation of Sunshine because she was a manipulator. And you would think she would be like, you know, I think the trap on the page was like the sexy vixen, but for her to manipulate, she would be innocent and sexy and sweet and manipulating. And that's kind of the way I played it.

[B]

Wow, that's so. It's so beautiful and so fascinating. When you got this opportunity, what did you think it would do for your career? Did you kind of think that this would be it?

[A]

I thought that was it. Couldn't tell me nothing. That was it. That was it. First of all, the way movies were Done. Then I remember going into the first wardrobe fitting and they had drawings of me in every costume, hand drawings. And I said, oh my gosh, do I get to keep these? And they were like, maybe you could keep these. I never got them, you know, And I think that may be the only Oscar nomination that got best costume. And it was just done in such a big way. You know, a table read with 50 actors and on the soundstage and, you know, expensive rap parties and just all of it, it was just huge. And I think what happened at that time is 24 year old actress, black female leading, you know, lady, no follow ups, no roles, basically. So what do you do? You go back to television. And yeah, I remember right after that I was offered a soap opera and I changed my mind three times on the day of the test to go and finally decided, no, let me just give it a little bit more time. And they said, you know, Leila, when you do that, please be sure next time. I've called them back three times and I was like, okay, I'm sorry, I didn't know. I just wanted to make the right choice, you know, I couldn't go from that movie to a soap opera where I could just stay to eternity. I was like, nah, right. I need the money. But maybe that's not a good decision.

[B]

Well, I mean, here's the interesting thing about Harlem Nights is that critics did not quite get it.

[A]

Is that fair? And very fair. But they, they gave me a good review.

[B]

Yeah, you're, you know, a bright spot in this film. But here's the interesting thing about black folks. We loved it. We were like, this is great. This is amazing.

[A]

We ended up loving it. We loved it.

[B]

Like I, you know, I wasn't old enough to see it in the theater, but vhs, we would watch it all the time, it would come on tv. It meant so much to us. And we've since heard Eddie Murphy talk about maybe taking on too much. You know, it's a period piece and a big cast, him directing it. He's sort of since come out and said there are parts of it that obviously he wishes he could have made better.

[A]

But it is this sort of 27 years old. Yeah. And that I think it was part of a little bit of Eddie bashing because he wrote it, he directed it, he starred in it. People had a problem with that. Yeah, it's very powerful.

[B]

But I think that's why, to me, the movie is very archival and a stamp about who we once were, literally. And also it becomes a stamp of who we were then in Hollywood, and he did have that kind of power. He could surround himself with the legends he looked up to that were now alongside him, and then obviously, some younger folks that he wanted to introduce to us. I just felt like, as a young person, I really was so inspired by the movie. And I loved looking at all of you in those costumes, seeing your talent. And there's also this feels like there's a camaraderie on set. Did you. Was that happening on set? Were you all sort of surprised or excited that this was happening, or was it just sort of normal at the time?

[A]

It was happening all around me. I'll say that. They would forget I was there sometimes. And then Richard and Red and Eddie would start cracking jokes, and they would get into the woman jokes and the this and that, and. And I would just sit there like, oh, they done forgot I'm in the car. They have forgotten I'm in the car. But, yeah.

[B]

Wow. So you did think that after Harlem Nights that things would be different for you because of how high profile that movie was, Right? Well, so when it came out, did your team talk to you? Were you having conversations? Or was it just, this is the reality and I gotta get back on the grind?

[A]

Well, first of all, Lena, there was no team. I had an agent. And then I tried to do what I thought was right, get a publicist who really couldn't give me much. And I even remember going. And I'm gonna say it. I remember going up to Arsenio and saying, arsenio, when are you gonna have me on the show? You need to get some other projects first. You need to do when you're a little bigger. When you're a little bigger. Later, later. Later never came. Later never came. Wow. It's just, you know, it's a diss. But I was like, but you've had Jasmine guy on three times. Oh, I would tell him, come on.

[B]

I love it. Look, okay, so look, you got back into tv. There's an episode of this show that I think is very interesting because I actually watched this episode in preparation for another guest. And that guest was Loretta Devine. She appeared on an episode of Rock. And in preparing for her interview, I watched this episode. And I was pleasantly surprised to see you in the same episode as a love interest for Roc's brother, Rocky Carroll. Yes. Here's my question. Did you and Loretta cross paths while recording this live taping of Rock?

[A]

We met on Rock. That's where I met Loretta. And we spent, like, we say, a week together all Day, every day for a week. And I really liked her, she really liked me. And we knew each other from Rock. And that episode was really special because they decided to go live. So that was the first live episode. And you know, we exchanged numbers, I think, but never saw her again until. Exhale. Mm.

[B]

I mean, what a divine thing.

[A]

Yes, it was.

[B]

Hello.

[A]

I mean, yes, she is divine.

[B]

Yes. But I couldn't believe it. Just as I was just, you know, prepping and looked up the season and the episode and that where she made her first appearance on the show. And then I'm just watching it and I'm like, what is that?

[A]

Who was Loretta playing? I don't remember.

[B]

She played Ella's friend for work. Cause it was about her birthday.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

And it's. Rock comes in mistaking you for his wife, trying to wish her happy birthday. And you turn around to someone, he's like, what are you doing here? And you had stayed over cause you were dating his brother and you're making breakfast, right? And he's like, oh, don't kick her out yet. Wait til the blueberry pancakes are ready.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Amazing. What was that experience like shooting live? Cause that's. People do it every now and then, you know, in tv. It is kind of scary. Cause there's no net. But it was good because that intro is still there of Rock telling the audience, this is a very special episode. Because this is. We're like, there's no. There's no safety net, folks.

[A]

It was scary and we were all scared.

[B]

And you were in the first scene.

[A]

I'm in the first scene. I'm in the opening scene. Yes. And can I tell you what I remember about that?

[B]

Please.

[A]

It's like you said, I remember being at the kitchen and I spin around. Right, Right. And when I spin around and I look at Charles Dutton, his head was shaking and I was like. Cause he's nervous. And when I. He's nervous. And when I saw his head shaking, it calmed me down. I said, oh, he's nervous. I just said the next line. And then I was fine after that. But when I spun around, I saw that head shaking. I said, oh shit, he's nervous. And this is his show, it's his show. But all the pressure was on him. I had one big scene and that was that.

[B]

Wow. And then later, yeah, Loretta pops up, you know, But I just remember the both of you being in that episode and it being a special episode live on Fox. I mean, but you got one of the original Dreamgirls here who probably ain't even doesn't care.

[A]

Loretta was always reading a book. Okay. She was always reading a book. I'm like, what you reading? The Time to Kill. I was like, okay. She reading in between scenes. Okay.

[B]

She like, please, I'm done. Broadway. This is nothing.

[A]

Uh huh.

[B]

Wow. Well, it's a great episode and I'm glad I could talk to you about it as well. Wow. I mean. Well, this is a very special moment for me to talk about this credit because this movie changed my life. It just. It did. It. It showed me who I wanted to be in the world, for better or for worse. I looked up to Marcus Graham probably more than I should have, but here we are. And the movie I'm talking about, of course, is Boomerang.

[A]

Boomerang.

[B]

I've seen that movie so much, so many times.

[A]

A lot of people have. It's one you can watch a lot. Everybody's in it.

[B]

I don't call many movies perfect, but in my mind, I think that one is even with all of its stuff that it comes with, because it is. Look, I mean, in terms of how women are treated in the movie, it's not great, but it is also a time capsule. It is the 90s, okay? In full effect, it is. But it is also daring and it was necessary. And also, critics didn't understand that movie either, Eddie.

[A]

No, they did not. I don't remember them loving that one either.

[B]

And for us, again, it is another jewel for us in our cinematic history. I think, in terms of, again, Eddie doing that thing that he does very well, which is to marry our legends and also our new faces in films. He really is an educator in that he's going to let us know who Eartha Kidd is, even if we don't, if we're not familiar. He's gonna make sure we're aware that Grace Jones exists in the world, but he's also gonna remind us of who Lela Rashawn is as well as you come in and you play the character that you play.

[A]

I mean, Christy.

[B]

Christy. What's interesting about it is very rarely do people strike lightning twice. And for some reason, Eddie is able to strike a really beautiful lightning with you. He had already done it once in Harlem Nights. How surprised were you to get a call? Did you get a call? That's my question. Or did you have to come in and audition?

[A]

Did you notice the movie career is just going with Eddie movies because he's the only one doing them with roles for me, which is interesting.

[B]

Wow. Which is a black beauty, truly, who has comedic Timing and who is more than just a beautiful face. And obviously, Eddie's really, I think, good at seeing past your beauty and seeing your talent clearly.

[A]

Yeah, he gave me the funny one. Gave me the funny one. You know what's really interesting about that movie is originally, you know, the movie, you know, it's being done. You want the lead. And they're like, oh, no, no, no. You did Harlem Nights. You can't do another one. You already did Harlem Nights. Oh, well, okay. I can't do that one. So I go. I do a sitcom. I get this sitcom at Fox with Morris Day and Jerome called Hotel Dicks.

[B]

And I guess the 90s.

[A]

The 90s. I signed for seven episodes. They're hotel detectives. I work at the hotel. And I swear, I think we did two, and we got canceled. And, you know, I was. That was my first experience. Like, oh, I get a check for all seven. Okay, I'm off to the next job. And I remember that was my first experience with that. And we had our. Our parking spaces with our names. When we went back to get our stuff out of the dressing rooms, parking space was already painted over.

[B]

Come on.

[A]

I was like, wow, that fast. That fast. And then so my agent goes, well, I don't know if they. They're reconsidering, and they may go with you for the Robin Givens role. And I was like, ooh, look at God. But that ended up working out. And they said, well, we have one more. We have another role, Christy. And when I read it, I thought it was hilarious. And I was like, okay, I'm gonna kill this. I like this. You know, I. I was. You know, you never get over it, right? Like, I want to be the star. I want to be the lead. But the trailer is all me and Eddie, and it's what people remember, which is crazy.

[B]

I don't think it's crazy at all.

[A]

For 100 years, I can't see your feet. Can I see your toes?

[B]

But I mean, how crazy to eclipse Sunshine with another iconic character? And I was curious, was it frustrating to not be the lead role, but yet be the woman that everybody seems to remember?

[A]

It was very frustrating because, you know, I thought I deserved the lead, but I also am an actor, and I look at the character and what they're really looking for, and I think Robyn was great in that role. She was amazing. Was her role. It wasn't for me. And I thought Halle was where she should have been. And, you know, I was where I was. And I think for me, I just went into that movie, trying to do the best I could be in that role. And I remember going in there for the costume fitting, because for me, it starts in my own creativity of who I think she is. And they said, oh, you're going to be walking this dog, and this is what we have for you. And they had a Dalmatian dog, and they had a Dalmatian coat. And I'm like, that's ugly.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

I was like, that's what you want me to wear? I said, well, that's the dog we like. Really like the Dalmatian. I said, do you have any other dogs? So they started showing me pictures, and I was like, that dog. I'm not even a dog person. And so Francine, the wardrobe stylist, she says, costume. What do you call it?

[B]

Costume designer.

[A]

Costume designer. Let me not insult costume designer. She says, well, will you go shopping with me? I said, I could go shopping. I can pick my own clothes. She goes, yeah, I love that you'll. Yes, let's do it. So we went all over Manhattan, and her and I together picked that outfit. I said, I want to be monochromatic. I want to have on white. I want to be with the dog. We had to fight for it because you don't wear white on film. Oh, we'll put a little cream beige scarf, and you'll get to wear the white. Like, that was all me.

[B]

How? Well, it's iconic. I mean, from the song, you know, obviously they're playing with the whole idea of dog and chasing, all that kind of stuff. But the fact that he has to see you from so far away. I mean, he actually sees you. You're outside, right? And it takes him outside.

[A]

Well, who walks the dog looking like that?

[B]

I mean, Christy.

[A]

Christy.

[B]

Apparently, she's got a whole backstory, you know? And then also, she comes up again in conversation. They're like, what happened to the girl? You. It's like David Allen Grier. Bartlett was like, she was beautiful, man.

[A]

The scene after that is the funniest scene in the movie. At the premiere. They were on the ground at that scene.

[B]

It's just. I mean. But I think what is so fascinating about Boomerang is really that the women are really the paint that obviously Reginald Hetland, who I love, is using to really tell this story. Reginald Hutland is a huge hero of mine and someone that. I mean, we went and tried to do the series Boomerang. We want to continue that legacy over at T. And Reginald came in and gave us his blessing, and he, of course, remembers it. So fondly. How was it being directed by him?

[A]

It was fun. It was a good time. I loved Reginald and his brother Warren.

[B]

Did you?

[A]

Who was a producer.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But I think they really gave us a lot of creative freedom, clearly, you know, Eddie and I, it was. It was, you know, what do you guys think? Well, what do you guys want to do? And what I liked about Reginald is because I think it was only a second film. He was open, he listened to me. You know, when I said I didn't like the Dalmatian outfit, he was like, okay. When I said, you know. And then I remember going back to la. I remember working out with a trainer really hard. I thought I was looking good and I was like, you gonna shoot all this, right? You gonna shoot all this? I think I should turn around in this dress and I think you should shoot my butt and pan up my legs. I think it would look really good. He was like, okay.

[B]

He's like, we're getting to see okay, Missy.

[A]

Okay. I was like. Cause I've been working hard and I want you to show all of this.

[B]

Wow. I mean, well, the scene of you two sitting at a piano, right?

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

And it's so interesting because storytelling wise, they're showing us his game. So that way we see it not work later. With Robin Givens character.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

What were you thinking about going into that day of filming having just to go toe to toe with Eddie Murphy?

[A]

You know, I never looked at it that way because I respected him so much. He sort of, I guess, in a way, was a mentor. Because my first film is Harlem Nights where he's my director and now he's my co star, but he is the number one. So I just tried to show up, you know, I tried to be really clear on where I am in that scene. And it's just acting. Once the camera's rolling and you're in it, you throw everything else away. He's not Eddie, he's Marcus. I'm Christy. We're here, we're on a date. This is real. You know, you just go in and I don't think about anything else.

[B]

Yeah. And it's a bit of a jump too, to go from sunshine to Christy, because there is a bit of a Marilyn Monroe esque energy that's sort of coming through, but it's different. It's not the same. So how are you able to differentiate that character, Chrissy? Obviously, because it's two Eddie Murphy movies and you want to make sure I'm not doing the same character. Clearly one is In a period piece. And one is modern. But what are you thinking about as an actor? To make sure people know. Yes, the same actress. Yes, it's Eddie again. But Chrissy is her own character. Yes, wardrobe helped. But I'm curious what you were thinking about in terms of her internal story.

[A]

I didn't even think of it that way. I didn't worry about Harlem Nights. It didn't even cross my head at all. I just wanted to bring Christy to life of who I thought she was. And I thought the way for me to play that would be that she's dumb. She's dumb. You know, she's an airhead. She's like, you know, okay. You know when she says, knock, knock.

[B]

Gold star.

[A]

Gold star for market. She's dead ass serious. Yeah, she's dead ass serious. That's why it works. That's why it works. And I studied people I love, like Lucille Ball. She was serious. When she burnt the toast and she was crying to Ricky, she was serious. And I think that's the only way that it works. You know how they say, if you believe it, we believe it?

[B]

Yeah. So committed. And the thing is, is it's interesting. Cause, yes, she's not the brightest bulb in the box.

[A]

She's not. But you're not laughing at her.

[B]

She's clearly beautiful, and she's just this amazing energy, and she's fun to watch. And I think a lot of that has to do with what you bring to her, because I think that's why the character stays with us and Sunshine, too. I think it's because you're bringing a humanity to these women that.

[A]

Because we know that girl. Yes. Yeah.

[B]

You know, she ain't gotta be that smart. She's like, look, I. Look how I look, okay? And I'm nice. I'm kind of. Because she cares. She's like, how's the dog?

[A]

Right?

[B]

She's a dog person.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It's amazing.

[A]

And afterwards, she's gonna be fine.

[B]

She's gonna be all right.

[A]

Can we get another date?

[B]

Christy gonna be cool. Okay. Christy's surviving. Christy forgot a bunch of dogs. You do go back to tv, though, and this time you're surrounded by comedic heavyweights again, the Wayans Brothers.

[A]

Lot of comedies back then, wasn't it? Yeah.

[B]

And you are holding your own with, I think, some of our comedy legends. Wayans Brothers are nothing to sneeze at. And you play in the pilot. Look at the pilot, you play Shawn's girlfriend. And you also go toe to toe with Marlon. And there's A funny bit about this hair product that does not smell great. Goop.

[A]

There it is.

[B]

Yes, Goop. There it is. That Shawn is trying to sell on like the. What is he? Like the. You know, when they're trying to sell stuff on tv, he's like, things can get rich quickly. And you are in that first season. You're there and you're very present. What is it like to no longer being a guest on a multicam but being a part of the main cast?

[A]

You know, every time, you know, there are pilots in between all of this and guests are working all that. I'm just wanting to hit, like, can I get a sitcom? Like, what do I have to do to get a sitcom? I've starred in movies. There's no movie follow up because there's really no roles at that time. Not a lot. And so. Well, can I just get a good job? You know, it was about some stability and just getting a hit sitcom. You would think it would be easy. It was rough. And I remember reading the Wayans Brothers and I didn't really love it for me because I just thought, oh, God, Lisa. The name was always Lisa or Denise. It was one of those.

[B]

I see. Lisa, Denise.

[A]

Yeah, it was one of those. And I was like, she didn't do anything but come in every week and say, baby, are you all right? That's the way I felt.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And I was like, I don't want to do this. And my friend was like, are you crazy? You don't have a job.

[B]

Like this friend.

[A]

Okay, I'm a homeowner, but I don't have a job. It's okay. Stuff will come along. And she was like, I think you should do it because I think it's going to lead to something else. You know, sometimes your homegirls have to tell you, check you, tell you what time it is. And I was like, okay, I'll go. And I had to read it.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Several times.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And I don't think I was the producer's choice, but I was Shawn and Marlon's choice.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And I got that job. And you know what? After I got it, I felt happy. I had stability. This is good. And then, you know what happened after that, Right?

[B]

Well, I know you're no longer in the season. The show continues. You know, Waynes Brothers went for like a few seasons and you are only in that season one.

[A]

I'm only season one because they were doing this little movie called Waiting to Exhale.

[B]

Well, we're. Well, we're gonna. Yeah, we're gonna get to that, because my question is, you know, look, I got to talk about this movie with Loretta Devine when she was here and waiting to exhale, in my opinion. Shifted culture.

[A]

It did.

[B]

It just. I remember being a young person and understanding the significance of what was happening because of my black mother, who was a single mother, and her friends who were also dating, some married, some divorced, some with children, some without. And I remember that book being in my home. And I just recall it being more than a movie, because it was more than a book. It was something that was giving voice to black women in a way that just hadn't happened before. And in preparation for this, I did watch the movie again. For. I don't have lost count, but it's always a joy to watch it again. It's always a joy I got to see. My mom was, like, very kind. She let me go tail along. I mean, multiple times. Seeing the movie in the movie theater, that was how it was like, you would go to the movies twice, three times to go see this film, particularly a film like this, because you felt like you were surrounded by community. You were around people that knew you and understood you. And it was the four of you, all four of you, that made that movie something that would really last forever and will forever be a part of your legacy. So I just want to say that I'm grateful to be talking to you about this movie. And I'm curious, is that why you did leave the Way As Brothers show, or just would it sort of become all too much a TV show and a movie coming together at the same time in your career?

[A]

I think it was mutual. But what happened was I was. I heard about Waiting to Exhale, and for whatever reason, I didn't even think, like, girl, you on a TV show, how are you gonna go do that movie? I didn't even think about that. I was like, oh, oh, I gotta read for that. Because I had read the book, and I read it, you know, years before, and I thought. When I read the book, I thought I loved it so much. I said, if they ever make this a movie, I want to be one of these women. I said, I'm not old enough now, but maybe I'll be old enough by the time they make the movie.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And I think in the book, my character's maybe 36. When I made the movie, I was 30. And so I heard about it. Of course, I wasn't getting an audition for it. And I heard they were struggling to find the girl. I knew they had found Whitney Houston of Course, they had found Angela Bassett, but there was no Robin yet. And I was like, oh, it's still happening. And so one day, I was in the wardrobe room, which seems to be.

[B]

Where I always gravitate wardrobe. I love it.

[A]

Okay. And I'm like, complaining to the stylist, Valerie Adams. I'm like, they won't see me for Waiting to Exhale, and I'm so mad about it. She goes, oh, really? Terry McMillan's my best friend.

[B]

What?

[A]

Really? Yeah. She's my best friend I've known in 20 years and immediately think she lying. She don't know Terry McMillan, does she?

[B]

Really?

[A]

She said, oh, I'm gonna call it right now. You know, back then, we had phones.

[B]

Yeah, landline.

[A]

She calls from the phone in the dress room. It's Terri. She goes, oh, she wants to talk to you. I'm like, she wants to talk to you. You know, Then you get nervous.

[B]

Like, she was talking.

[A]

Talk to me. I'm going, oh, shit. And I'm like, hi, Terry, it's Leila. She goes, yeah, I know who you are. I saw you in Boomerang. You're foxy.

[B]

I know who you are. Classic.

[A]

She said. I said, but they won't see me for your movie. I think I'm so great and so right for Robin. I said, I know what that is. I could play a dingbat. Really? Well. She was like, well, first of all, she's not a dingbat.

[B]

You're just a phenomenal impersonation of Terry McMillan, by the way.

[A]

I was like, she's not a dingbat.

[B]

This is right. That's right. I'm talking to the author now.

[A]

Like, oh, shit. I just said the wrong character. Oh, God. And then she said. She starts explaining who she is. I said, I'm listening. And she said, well, I can't guarantee you, but I will talk to Forest and maybe I can do something by Monday. That was Friday night. Friday night show. By Monday morning, I had an audition. Then it was like, how am I gonna sneak out and get there? So then I had to butter up the pa And I'm like, yeah, you know Ken Whittingham? Ken, I. This big audition. Please can you, like, do my scene at this time? And I'm gonna sneak out at lunch, and I'm gonna do this, this and that. He was like, okay, okay, I'll do it for you one time. And so, needless to say, was 19 pages.

[B]

And the audition.

[A]

Audition is 19 pages. And I said, you know what? This is big. This is huge. I'm Gonna make sure I know every word. And I worked on what I was doing. I saw my acting coach, because I got one, and we worked out what she was and who she was and what we thought she was. And then I had to go back again, and he was like, I don't think I can get you out. I was like, you have to. You have to. I'm, like, damn near crying. You have to let me out. So he sneaks and lets me out. Then I get the movie. I get the movie. How am I going to get out of the Wayans Brothers? How am I going to work this out? And then Forrest says to me, he said, well, but, you know, you're on a show, right? I said, yeah, but we only tape on Fridays. It's Phoenix. It's an hour away. I could do both. I could do it. I could do it. And so what happened was my manager at the time, God bless him, Bernie Brillstein, called Les Moonvest President, Warner Brothers, and said, you have to do this for me. I need you to let her out. And so they worked it out where I would fly back and forth, and maybe I might only rehearse one day and shoot on Friday. And then, you know, I think the show ended, like, maybe March and Excel, we did from January to May. So once we finished, they kind of saved a lot of my stuff for the end, you know, they worked it out, and I didn't go back. They worked it out.

[B]

Okay, first of all, I want to shout out the costume designer at Williams Brothers. Can we get her name one more time?

[A]

Valerie Adams. Valerie Adams. That's my girl.

[B]

And Angel. And I also want to shout out to PA Again, Ken.

[A]

You said Ken Whittingham, now a director.

[B]

Okay, that's what I was saying. I was like, I know that name.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I just want to shout those two people out. Thank them. Shout out to the way his brothers, people at Warner Brothers, for letting you out.

[A]

And by the way, I was carrying around with me a folder and a typed letter to Forest Whitaker asking everybody, do you know him? Wow.

[B]

Do you know him? I want to ask, what were the scenes that you had to audition with?

[A]

One scene I had to do is not in the film, actually. And it's, oh, yeah, I forgot how I got the movie. Huh? This was trippy. So in the book, Robyn had a weave down to her butt, supposedly. And so I said, I know what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna wear a wig. You know, wigs weren't big then. They weren't a Thing I got me a wig from Crenshaw and I had that wig looking like my hair. And when I did the scene, in the scene, she's exercising. I think it's in the beginning where I'm eating the ice cream and you kind of meet my character and I'm talking to myself. We all talk to ourselves and stuff. So I'm doing the scene and I'm working out and I'm talking about Russell and all the things I did for him. And I'm mad. I'm this. And. And then I sit down, I said, shoot. And I pull the wig off. I said, what a girl gotta do or what, you know, whatever I say the line. And I just kept going. And they were like, what the. Oh, I went there. Wow. Because I wanted to be true to the character. This is what you do in your apartment by yourself alone. This is what we do.

[B]

Right. Wow.

[A]

And they said, when I pulled the wig out at the screen test, when the studio watched it, the room erupted.

[B]

Amazing. You got real. Okay. I'm also struck by the fact that when you got on the phone with Ms. McMillan, which I'm sure was somewhat nerved, that. And also you talk about the roles that you had played up until that point, even she's saying, I know you are. I know you. You know, because people, we know you. We've seen you. You know, she's seen you in Boomerang. She's seen you clearly in Harlem Nights. And you are playing a bit of a Marilyn Monroe esque type of woman. And even you said, oh, yeah, I can play the dingbag. And you'd read the book. And in the book, of course, Terry McMillan has painted really beautiful pictures of these four women, very different women. And it's interesting that you initially thought of Robin one way. And what's exciting is I want to talk to you about three very specific scenes of yours in the film that have always been moving to me and interesting and inspiring to me as a writer and as a storyteller. And your performances, your performance in Waiting to Exhale really is something to be studied because you are the beautiful woman that everybody thinks, well, you probably got all these men at your door. But the truth is she lacks self worth. And as beautiful as she is, she has a low self esteem. And I think that is something that is very difficult to play, that you seem to breathe life into in a way that continues to stand to this day. So the first scene I'd like to talk about is a scene with you and Wendell Pierce.

[A]

Okay, I will Say this before we get into that is. It's funny you say that. And that was my initial reaction, that she was a dingbat. Right? Because that's. I read the book. It had been years since I read the book. But Terri always goes deeper, and you have to go, well, why does she appear like this on the outside? What's inside of her that's making her make these choices? So when she said that, it caused me to look at Robin deeper and why she does what she does and why she feels the way she feels, because she's a beautiful woman who's being used and abused by men. Men want to conquer her. They don't want to marry her. They want to conquer her. And it's. It was something about Robin at the time that I was connecting to in my personal life. Oh, yeah, Everybody want to go out with sunshine. But am I your girlfriend, or am I just somebody you want to show off as a date? And I was sort of struggling with it personally. And Forrest will tell you, he said, but, yeah, you forgot. You came in my office and you cried, telling me how much you knew who this girl was. And I said, oh, yeah, I did do that, huh? He said, yeah, so show me who she is. And with Wendell, we shot that over two days. Wendell Pierce was on top of me for two days in 110 degree weather in Phoenix.

[B]

It was a sweat. He didn't have to use no water.

[A]

Be real. He was dripping. His little glasses were poodling. And the drip from the. And I had all this body makeup. I'm sorry, it's not all real. It's body makeup. I'm like, can you chisel these abs? Can you? I'm going in little cleavage. You know, I'm all this. And Forest played a trick. He told me and Loretta we had to be nude in the movie. And we were ready for that. And then I got ready to do it, and I came out with the garters and the this and that. He goes, oh, no, no, that's enough. You good? I was like, okay. What? I don't have to be naked. Oh, God. It just lift. I was lifted. I'd gotten out of that my whole career.

[B]

But you were willing to for this.

[A]

I was willing to. This was like, I'd have my talk with mom and dad. This is it. I'mma take it all off.

[B]

This is it for Ms. McMillan. Yes, yes.

[A]

And so Wendell, when he does the scene where he drops me on the bed, he did it by accident. And Forrest like, cut, cut, cut. And I fought for that. I said, no, that's funny.

[B]

I mean, it's hilarious.

[A]

I said, that's funny. And, you know, Forrest is a deep thinker. He had to think about that. And he goes, well, we'll do one that way. And when he did it, you know, when we intentionally did it, you know, we kind of did it as a joke and it works. And I think I always kind of went back to comedic instincts, even though it's very serious. And we did that scene and, you know, it turns real.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so it just kind of turned real. And it turned real in a really good way. Cause that scene right there, I knew who she was. I wanted all those things that Robyn wanted at that time in my life. I wanted to be married. I wanted kids. I wanted a house. I wanted this, I wanted that. Those were my dreams. So that scene was really easy for me. And the sex scene was hard. It was just hard for both of us because it's awkward. Wendell's sweating. He's got on a T shirt. He's damn near fully clothed. Cause I'm naked almost.

[B]

Of course.

[A]

Yeah. But he was so sweet and so kind. I think he gave me perfume in my dressing room. And the men were lovely on that film. They were sending us roses and flowers and how many boyfriends you got? And what'd you get today from Gregory Irons? What'd you get?

[B]

You know, Wow. I mean, it's a. It's always been a stunning scene. And I think it's because of how much happens in one scene.

[A]

It's a nine minute scene.

[B]

It is its own movie.

[A]

It's nine minutes.

[B]

It is its own short film. And it just takes us into your world. We open. I mean, I just think. Waiting to exhale. When you look at it, it is just classic cinema. Classic cinema. Because to open on you like, you're glorious, you're beautiful, you're just all these things, but your character is giving him a chance because you're like, look, you never know, okay? Who knows where it is?

[A]

She's a wounded little bird.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

She's wounded and she's vulnerable. And she just wants to be loved and loved back because she has so much love to give. She just wants to be loved. And that's anybody who will treat her nice and take her out to dinner and be nice to her.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So she gives him a chance.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. But also, I found it interesting when she's later with her friends in the classic scene where they're out and the nightclub. Yes. And Michael rolls up, you know, and with another woman. With another woman. But there's something interesting that she says why she fired him. And she's like, well, he was talking marriage, so. And it's interesting because I actually heard that line differently for the first time.

[A]

As you get older, you see a lot of it differently.

[B]

Me watching it at 40.

[A]

Yes. Now, I understood the movie years later better than I understood doing it. And I'm like, uh, yeah. Cause you've lived. You understand it. And she lies. She lies. And a lot of women often lie. You know, I used to have a thing my friend would say, when a.

[B]

Guy broke up with me or we.

[A]

Broke up, I would always say, she would say, what happened to suicide? I was like, girl, he make me sick. That was almost my line.

[B]

Was that me.

[A]

It was like, he make me sick. I don't like it no more.

[B]

Right. Don't worry about it. I don't know. But the question. So she was lying, so. Cause when she said he was talking marriage, I was wondering. She was saying that when someone did try to show up for her, she didn't know how to embrace it or did he move on.

[A]

What happens is there's a quick scene at work. At work where she chumps him in front of her bosses. And she doesn't like it. It pissed her off. And it pissed her enough off where it turned her off. So she's done with him. And I think that's probably more clear in the book. But it was that little thing that it was like, no, because Robin's interesting. She also has an ego.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And she's like, oh, no, he didn't chunk me at work. Or whatever she says. You know, so she's mad. So you assume, like, that was him. But then when she sees him with another girl. And Angela's character, Gloria rubs it in. Did you see Michael? Yeah.

[B]

He's like, yeah, she saw him.

[A]

It's like. It's a dig. Because even though I dumped him, I'm still mad about it. Like, you know, he's moving on way too fast. He just, you know, got somebody like that.

[B]

Right. There's also a moment, too, where Gloria says the person Bernadine is flirting with is married.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And Robin says. And. Right.

[A]

Cause she's that girl, too.

[B]

Right.

[A]

She's that girl, too. Cause Leon's character is married and she doesn't care. Does he love her? Well, I think what I think about Robyn is Russell was who she was in love with.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

And she really can't be happy with any other relationship because she loves Russell.

[B]

Right. Who happens to be married.

[A]

Who happens to be married. So the truth is, Russell is blocking her blessing. Russell's in the way. And that's what happens, you know, when you have young girls and you spend your time with somebody who's not available to you. It's called dating unavailable men. You're blocking your blessing of who you're supposed to meet. And many women do that. And that's what Robyn was doing.

[B]

Yeah. And I think that's the reason why she's so relatable and why so many women continue to watch the movie again and again and see pieces of themselves that they didn't even know were there. I also love the voiceover at the end of that scene with youh and Wendell where we really get inside Robyn's head and we hear about how important that night was, just for it to be perfect, even if it just was an imagination or just this one night. It was a really beautiful scene. The next scene I want to talk to you about is a scene I like to refer to as the Romeo and Juliet scene in the movie because you're on a balcony, he walks up. It's the score, the chemistry, the look. It is, again, classic, cinematic, like beauty. And I'm curious how much conversation went into that scene and how much rehearsal happened in order for that scene to work the way it does so beautifully.

[A]

Well, I think we got a chance to rehearse, which is number one. You know, I think we flew to Phoenix and rehearsed for two or three weeks. So we got to rehearse. And Michael T. Was the veteran because Michael T. And Dennis Haysbert, they were shooting Heat with Dinero and Pacino at the time. And, you know, they were shooting Heat. And we're coming down to two. This little movie was, you know, so they. But I'm looking at them like, yeah, they're the big dogs. Yeah, they're the real deal. Like, I gotta show up. You know, I have a scene with Michael T. You know, and so all I could come to was where my character was in that moment. And, you know, that's him. He's a drug addict. She's dating a drug addict. And she didn't know that at first. Not at first.

[B]

She learns at the White party.

[A]

She learns at the white party. And, you know, she also learns later he stole her wallet.

[B]

Well, Susanna had to tell her.

[A]

Yeah. And, you know, she picked him up.

[B]

In the grocery store and look. And as he said, be careful who you pick up in grocery stores next time.

[A]

Yes. And that rings true to Me. Cause actually, one of the exercises my acting coach had me do for that movie was to put that wig on, to put on a miniskirt, to put on the highest heels I had, and walk through the mall, the Beverly Center. I want you to walk through all day, and I want you to feel what she feels and who she is, because this is who she is. How do you feel as her? What does that feel like? Do you like men staring at you? Does it make you uncomfortable? Do you. Do you relish in it? You know, I had to find her, and that was one of the ways that I went out to find her. Wow.

[B]

What did you find doing that experiment.

[A]

That Robyn really had no fear at all. You know, she just. She wanted to look good all the time. And she really put a lot into that. And that was to get a man. She was obsessed with getting a man. What we didn't have in the movie, we shot it, but the movie was just too long. Is her daddy. She had daddy issues. You know, she was looking for that love from daddy look.

[B]

I mean, I'm sad that that scene didn't make it, but I do think without it, we can see so much of that in your performance. And I think that that comes through. And I think what's so interesting is that you're so great at comedy and humor because even in that scene with you and Michael T. There's. It's actually very devastating because also in the scene, she finds out he has a son that she didn't know about. And she's been dating him for a bit and she thinks it's kind of serious. And also you find out that she's been waiting for two hours. And so she is dressed and to think about the two hour wait and what that was.

[A]

And I think every woman knows what that feels like.

[B]

Cause she's like, I'm not going. If she does stand up and you look like a million bucks and this is who is coming to pick her up. And with the leather vest. In the summertime. In the summertime, I mean.

[A]

And that was his character choice. And I looked down and I saw him in that leather vest. And I thought to myself, what is Michael T. Doing? Why would you make that choice right now? It's hot.

[B]

Cause you know what? He's got other things on his mind.

[A]

That's what his character will wear. Yes. He's probably been out since last night.

[B]

How much. True. How much of that was on the page? And was there anything that you two were allowed to add in that scene?

[A]

The scene on the balcony. Not a lot was on the page. Your son, you know, careful who you pick up with grocery stores. All those incense with a white woman line, then, yes, white woman can have your sorry ass. Yes. That was Terry McMillan.

[B]

Oh, okay, got it.

[A]

That was Terry McMillan for sure.

[B]

Understood.

[A]

But the leather wearing in the summertime need a shave. Having stinky ass home was me. And he threw some ad libs up at me, and I was not gonna be outdone. So, you know, we're shooting 35 millimeter in film. We got plenty of time. Let me go sit in my chair and think of me some good lines. And then I started asking the crew for help. You got some good lines? You got some lines. What could I say?

[B]

You throwing out shot on 35 millimeter film as if it's just an aside that doesn't happen.

[A]

Yeah. And I think no more.

[B]

I think that's why. And watching it again, it is so beautiful, just beautiful. And it's just. You can feel the texture and it's just so stunning to see. And also, I'm curious, with the grapefruit, was it a grapefruit that he threw oranges. Oranges.

[A]

Oranges.

[B]

Was that in the rehearsal? Did you know that was going to happen? Because I love you. You have a great arm on you at the end, and I love that you get the final. Forget you. But was that always part of the plan?

[A]

I think that was Forrest's editing. That was Forrest. Because, you know, I don't remember how the oranges started, but it became.

[B]

He threw it at you. Said, don't you throw that up here? And then he does. And then you catch it and you throw it back at him. And it's cut beautifully where it looks like you hit him right in the head.

[A]

Right? It's cut. I just remember us having to throw them many times. That's. That's all I remember. And I think it was the Michael T. Adlif. And I go, don't you throw that up here. You know, it was. It was instinctual. And then Forrest was like, yeah, I'm gonna have him throw it. And then you throw it back. And then he put the Romeo and Juliet over it. And all of that is brilliant. But yeah, those. That scene is very, very ad libbed and fluid.

[B]

You know, going up the stairs and not able to get up. You're like, it's locked, Troy. Like, you know, it's just. There's so much happening and so much beautiful business. And also the words between you two is really stunning.

[A]

And it was Important that Forrest wanted my character to hold her power in that scene. Cause that was the scene where she kind of gets her power back in that relationship.

[B]

Absolutely. It's stunning. And last but not least, a scene that I've always loved when I first saw the film, and I think one that. That it's just hard to forget, is a scene where you're sitting at the pool with Savannah, played beautifully by Whitney Houston, and you talk about having an abortion. And I think that also tells us something about Robyn and her journey and what she's been through, how. How much conversation went into before you started filming that scene. And what was that for you when you knew that that scene was going to be filmed on that day?

[A]

Hard for me, where I was as an actor, that was really hard for me. You know, like you said, I had done mostly comedies. That's pretty much all I had done was comedies, you know, and this was drama, and it was deep, and it was heavy, and it was real, and it was crying on a dime. And it was all this, those things. And I just think, thank God for Forrest being an actor's director who could really direct me. The growth I did as an actor on that film was 360 and learning from the best, because he is one of the best. And that day was really hard because I had made that character choice of that outfit. And there were some mean girls on the set telling me that I shouldn't wear that. And they really got in my head. And then I changed. Then I changed back then.

[B]

I.

[A]

Because the outfit was too little for me. But me and the wardrobe lady, we squeezed into it. It was like, I want to wear this. And they were like, I don't think you should wear that. You can see your butt cheeks. I don't think you should wear that. And I was like, really? Then I got insecure, and then next thing I know, producer comes in the trailer. Why aren't you out there? Huh? What? Oh, I'm. I'm going right now. And so I got out, and I forest, I don't know how this looks. I. I don't know if I feel right. He said, just go sit and rehearse. He took a picture, and he bought the Polaroid back. He said, what do you think? I said, oh, it looks good. He said, yeah, yeah. Don't. Don't let other people get in your head ever. So I ended up wearing that. And then I had to go and be dramatic on top of that. Three hours getting ready, which I could say I was a bad actor. That Day. I took three hours to get ready that day. And it was Waterworld. We were at a water park doing this scene with kids around us and noise and this and that. The scene was really difficult because we had a lot of obstacles. And, you know, it was one of those days. Whitney was having a day, you know, she was just having a hard day, and it was a difficult scene for me. So it was just hard. But we got through it. We ended up looping a lot of it.

[B]

Wow, it's such a beautiful scene between two friends about you, Robyn sharing something so private and Savannah, because, well, Savannah is also very much in her own space dealing with something, and she doesn't even really catch on. She's like, what show did you see? You say you saw this on again, right? Not even realizing that her friend is trying to reveal something to her. Very personal. And I think your performance is very quiet and very honest because you can feel the pain. You can feel the memory of that. And I think that's why that moment, even when I was very young watching the movie, hits me. But now, as a grown woman watching it again, I'm moved all over again. And a thing that always struck me that someone could argue, is this an on the nose choice? Either way, it's very intentional. You hear. You talk about looping. You hear the sound of a child looking for their mother in the background. That's probably intentional.

[A]

That's for us.

[B]

That's for us saying, if you don't get it, we're gonna make sure you do, right? About like saying, mommy, have you seen my mommy? I think my mommy left me. And I think that layer, that added layer, that is such a distinctive decision to put in that scene is one that, like, you cannot let that moment pass you by because you hear that child in the background and you assume that they can hear the children, and she's thinking about the child that she never got to meet.

[A]

And I think that is part of Robin's part pain, you know, that in making choices as an actor, we just. We. We make choices. And my choice was that, you know, obviously she had had an abortion. Maybe she had more than one, and that man made her do it. You know, my choice was I wanted my baby and he made me abort that baby. And I'm pained by that. And I'm struggling with that. In every relationship, I'm struggling with that. What's wrong with me? What's wrong with me that these men won't love me the way I deserve to be loved? And I think that was the struggle of her character. So that is her most painful scene. But she is so covered up because we don't always let our friends, even our best friends, know what we really feel. And so she's watching Savannah in this relationship that's going nowhere, that she knows is going nowhere, and she's trying to tell her without telling her. This is what happened to me, and this is not going to end well for you.

[B]

Wow. Stunning. Jesus Christ. I mean, golly. And they're both wearing sunglasses as well. You know, it's interesting. I'll tell you. You talk about the wardrobe, and you wouldn't have known this, but this season of the Shy, we have two characters. Two women sitting by a pool, having a conversation. And I asked the word art costume designer to mimic the costumes you and Whitney Houston wear in that scene.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

As a way to pay tribute. Oh, nice. To you. To that scene. To that memory. And so. You make me cry. I mean, we looked back at that photo as a reference, and look, they'll see this episode. People will know. It's always a wink. But I try to pay tribute to the movies that. And the TV shows that inspired me to tell stories. And watching the scene again, knowing that we paid tribute to it on the show, and hearing that, your decision with that wardrobe choice, I'm grateful that Mr. Whitaker took a photo and showed it to you, because I think your wardrobe decisions, which has become a bit of a theme in this conversation, it helps you find the character. It helps you define the character. It does.

[A]

It does. It really helps me. For me, wardrobe, wig, makeup, like, it's everything. Once I put all that on, it changes how I walk, how I feel inside, you know? And I also think that scene works because Whitney wasn't having a great day that day. And that's kind of where her character is. And you notice she's fully covered. She is. She's like, mm, mm.

[B]

I'm wearing this. Yeah.

[A]

This is all they get.

[B]

White shirt, period. Off the shoulder, a blue pant, the sunglasses.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Sipping.

[A]

Yeah. She gonna be Whitney. Look, this is all you getting.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I was like, okay, well, how is.

[B]

That when you're dealing with a scene partner that maybe is having their own movie behind the scenes of the movie? What does one do?

[A]

First of all, I don't want anybody getting. Reading between any lines.

[B]

Oh, no, no, no, no.

[A]

Her and I were. We loved each other.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

But sometimes that's the thing.

[B]

Cause I can be, you know, love the person. I. But if I'm having a day.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm like, give me a beat.

[A]

Right? Right.

[B]

I'm gonna show up for you as much as I can in this moment. But what advice would you give to an actor who is in with a scene partner, who maybe just be dealing with some stuff that has nothing to do with you or the set or what's. But just more about people? Cause life happens while you're making these movies.

[A]

Oh, it's hard. And you just have to go, okay, all right. You're the number one. Get what you want. We cool. You have to rise above it, right? Because at the end of the day, what you have is your work on film forever. And don't let that ever interfere with your performance. And it. And.

[B]

And.

[A]

And people I don't know now as much as when I was younger, they will try to get in your head, especially if they find you to be a threat.

[B]

Well, I think it's really good advice. Look, I. Before we move to the next credit, I just want to ask, how did Waiting to Excel change your life?

[A]

Oh, where can we start? In every way. You know, I thought Harlem Nights was it. You think what? It's never what you think it is. It's never what you think it is. I mean, I knew Excel was huge, obviously, but anything can happen. And so I remember Loretta and I traveling and going off to promote the film. We did a lot of the grunt work, you know, around the country. And I was like, I was excited about everything, which probably got on Loretta's nerves. I was like, isn't this great, Loretta? We're gonna be on Oprah, and we're gonna do this and we're doing that, and we're. In essence, you're the ingenue.

[B]

You're the young one, the ingenue.

[A]

She says, lela, don't you get excited about all that? Cause I was in Dream Girls, and you're gonna end up right back in the room. I said, what? You mean right back in the room? You mean I'm gonna have to audition again? She. He's like, yeah. It's like, oh, no, I'm not. That's not gonna happen. I was told that's not gonna happen. Yeah, that doesn't happen for a few years, but then it happens. Eventually it happens again. But what was your question?

[B]

I didn't wait until I see.

[A]

I'll say, I'll change my mind.

[B]

You're like, child, how did it die?

[A]

Okay. Yeah. So we're walking through the airport, and I'm thinking, you know, she said, lela, this is going to Be a hit unless something happens in the world. Right. I'm like, okay, right. And so when we were walking through the airport and there were Persian women, white women, Spanish women, everybody in the airport, oh, I started waiting to excel. You go, girl. You go, girl. I said, oh, I think it's gonna be a hit, Loretta. I think it's gonna be a hit. I knew it was connecting to all women, everybody. And that was huge. And so, yeah, and it was the four roles. This is the first time, you know, films were changing because we were fully developed characters. That's the first time I had a character that changed from the beginning, middle to end, and had an arc. And so four leads, four black female leads. It changed everything. Opened the doors to the rom com.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

And. And so, yeah, there was no auditioning after that for a while, and I enjoyed it, and it was a long little movie run. So, yeah, it changed my life. Yes. In every way.

[B]

Well, we thank you for that performance. Thank you for your presence on that screen and those scenes and so many other scenes. And working with Leon was also amazing. I don't want to discount those scenes either, but I'm just grateful I could talk to you about those three particular scenes that we get to talk about today, because those just, to me, stand out in such a way that I think sticks with all of us and will continue to stick with us forever. So thank you. Thank you, Mr. And Mrs. Loving.

[A]

That was on your list. Yes, it was.

[B]

I remember watching it, like, in real time and thinking, I didn't know anything about that story. And I think it was the first time it had been a narrative story. I know there was a documentary. How much about that story story did you know before going in to make that film?

[A]

I knew nothing. I never heard the story. I didn't know Loving vs. Virginia. I didn't know the case. I didn't know it happened. So I just, you know, get this script, and it's Richard Friedenberg who wrote A River Runs Through It. And I read it, and I thought, oh, this is really good. And I was worried about, can I play 17? Because I think this is my first job after Exhale. And so I'm worried about, can I play 17? Cause she played from 17 to 36.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And I had to read, oh, Exile wasn't out yet. You know, they're telling him she's got this movie out, yada, yada, yada. Okay, well, come in. This is Timothy Hutton, baby. He won an Oscar.

[B]

We need you to read Ordinary People.

[A]

Right, Right. And so thank God. Timothy was not there, but Richard, the director, was there, and I read with him, and I read only one time, and they offered me the role the next day. They went through the tapes. Timothy went through the tapes, and he said, you know, you would have won. I saw your tape.

[B]

Well, understandable. I mean, you're a vision in the movie. And you're also. I mean, I completely buy you as you're so youthful and innocent and natural. And I think the movie as a whole is also just a very interesting watch. I think all the performances are really fantastic. It's also doing period is sort of its own thing that comes with it. And so I was curious for you, how was it. Does it not take a mental toll on you to play these scenes as a young black woman at this time, facing what she's facing and her just trying to be a free person and find love and live her life? Does that take a mental toll on you during the filming process?

[A]

Yes. Yes. I would get a little depressed because I sort of, in even hearing you say it out loud, I think I was playing characters that were something on the outside and the inside, they were something totally different. And they're in a sad place. Mr. Mrs. Loving, she's in a very sad place. So I found myself just getting depressed and sad. I'm in Toronto, and it's gloomy and it's, you know, by myself every day.

[B]

And it was a very intense sex scene in the backseat of the car.

[A]

Yes. And I'm crying in every scene every day, you know, and for me, I love that movie so much because my grandmother loved it. My grandmother's from the south, and she loved that movie. And for me, it tapped into my family. Being from Arkansas and be the Southern little country girl in the thing and use the outhouse. I knew what all that was. I knew what that was. So I got to really, I guess, be an authentic side of me, you know, to play a side of me that was very real. I didn't know what it was like to be in love with. In an interracial. Interracial relationship, but I just didn't. And that probably is why it works, because I just played it as I love him. It's not about color, and it wasn't to Mildred. It wasn't about any of that. And they kept asking, do you want to speak to her ahead of time? Because she was still living when we made the movie. And. And I was scared because as an actor, you know, I had made all my choices. I had all my notes from every Scene. And I was like, I don't want to talk to her yet because I don't want it to mess up my head. And I ended up speaking to her at the end of the movie. And when she got on the phone and I heard her voice, I went, she sounds like me. It was just a place that she comes from, this really, like, just sweet place, this sweet, pure, organic place of love and motherhood. And I wasn't a mother yet playing her, which was also very different, you know, to have to tap into what I thought that was.

[B]

How was that for you?

[A]

Different, you know. You know, I might have played a mother here and there, but not in that way. Not in that way, you know, and not in the way of their struggling. And. And that was a hard movie, and it was a great movie because Timothy Hutton is one of the best actors that I have ever worked with.

[B]

I was just going to ask, what is that experience like playing with Timothy Hutton?

[A]

Well, I know he produced it and developed it, so maybe he had done his work somewhere else. But I never saw Timothy prepare. He just does it and does it in a way where at that time, I had to prepare and I had to have substitutions, and I had to do a lot to get in the emotion of that scene. But once you doing the scene, you got to forget all that and throw it away, right? So when I'm acting with him, he's just being. And so he's causing me to just be. And we're just having a great scene together. And I think that he liked me and he respected me as an actor, and I think he demanded an actor's actor, you know, because that's what he is. And I learned a lot from him about a lot of things. And I would be worried about. You know, we didn't really talk in that scene. And I remember him coming to me and said, I want to show you something. And he puts on the scene where I'm by the outhouse and I come and it's cold, and I tell him that I'm pregnant. And we say very few words, right? And he said, that's your most powerful scene. You didn't even talk, really. He said, so much can be said by your emotion and your face. An actor doesn't always need to be talking. And I went, oh. And sometimes I learned that it's your thoughts in between the next line that the audience is watching you. Cause they're always watching you. You know, what is she thinking? Oh, she's making a decision. We gotta see all that in your.

[B]

Eyes, did you feel like you were a different actress walking onto that set after doing Waiting to Exhale?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Did you have more confidence or more of a handle on your craft, would you say?

[A]

I felt like I was walking onto that set at the time that I was supposed to walk onto it. Cause I wouldn't have been ready before that to work with somebody like him. I would not have been ready because he was also very tough. He was very tough, so I needed to be tough. You know, when you're a lead in films with guys, you better be tough because you know. You know why.

[B]

Yeah. You gotta hold your own. But I think there is a. A confidence that you carry in that film, but it is a quiet one. It is a soft confidence. But I think in terms of your command over your talent and your performance is in such an interesting space that you can tell that you. That that role is a culmination of all the things that you had done up until that point. And it's such an important performance, obviously, being based on a real person, you can tell that there's something happening on screen that stays with you. Because I do remember it from watching it. But it was so nice to sit with those performances again. It's a really beautiful, beautiful film.

[A]

Thank you. I'm really proud of it. I gotta say, when they did Loving Again.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

It hurt like a dagger.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Cause they got to get Oscar nominations. Right. Who's wonderful? But it was. Because it was a film at the theater and we did it as a television. A Showtime movie.

[B]

Oh, Kevin Kerr.

[A]

Yeah, I think it was a Showtime movie. So that's a different category.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, so I was like, you.

[B]

Know, is that something that's important to you? Awards and things like that and those sort of campaigns?

[A]

I think if any actor says it's not important to them, they're lying. Yeah, it's important. Everybody wants to be seen. Everybody wants to be recognized. Especially when you've been in the business a long time, you want to be acknowledged for your work, but you want to be deserving of it, too. And a lot of these awards are not. They're political. They've got things involved. You know, they're. Whatever. It's nothing I lose any sleep over. But it would be nice. But it would be nice to have a role that is a platform for it. How about that part?

[B]

Absolutely. I hear what you're saying. And is there an element that. Because I remember when they did the loving movie, the new one that they did, I remembered yours. And so Is there something to. I mean. Cause they just did Piano Lesson again. And I remember the Alfred Woodard version that was on a major TV movie, if you will. Is there something to you feeling as if you sort of pioneered that story, or would they even be able to do that movie again? Because people knew about it in a way that you didn't know about it before you did the film. And I definitely was educated about that story because of your film. So when they came up again, I knew what they were talking about because of your movie. Right. Is there a sort of pride in that that you have?

[A]

It is. Because you know what? It's only for those who know. They know.

[B]

Right. Can we talk about Gang Related?

[A]

Oh, yeah, we could talk about Gang Related. Yes, we can. Gang Related.

[B]

Gang Related. You opened the movie. When we sat with Vivica Fox, she talked about being in Independence Day and playing a sex worker. You know, Anora is all the rage now.

[A]

Anora rock.

[B]

Okay. But Vivica was an Independence Day, you know, doing her thing on the pole. And Gang Related opens with you on stage on the pole, dancing. And Jim Belushi is your love interest. Obviously, Tupac is in the film as well. When Jennifer Lewis was here, we talked about her working with him. Fording Justice. How did Gang Related come to you?

[A]

Gang Related was interesting, and I will say I credit my agent after I did Exhale and you said, how did it change? Is I was able to get roles that were written for white women, and that was a game changer. You know, the John Grisham film, the Chamber, was written for a white woman. Gang Related was written for a white woman. And I think they were gonna go with Daryl Hannah at first or something. And my agent convinced them. It's like, she's a stripper. She can be anybody. She can be anybody. And they didn't make me read. It was after Exhill, I came in, I had a meeting, and I talked them into why it didn't matter what she was. Why are we talking about color? You know, it's. It's. It's just a role. She's Jim Belushi's love interest.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think, you know, for them, it was like, let's get Tupac. Let's get Lila. It's gonna be cool. You know, they were being cool. They were doing something different, you know, so. Yeah.

[B]

Wow. What were you nervous at all having to do that?

[A]

The stripping? Yeah, at first I was very excited. I was very excited because I felt like it went to my dancer roots, and I Always wanted to dance in a film, but never really got that chance. And this was as close as I was going to get. And so I was like, oh, yeah, I'm going to be a dancer. You know, I'm going to go. You know me. I went to the strip club. I researched the stripping. I looked at them upside down. I said. I told the director, he went. I was like, yeah, I'm going to do that. I want you to get me on the plane pole upside down. I'm going to hang and I'm going to drop. We're going to get that, man. I tried to climb up that pole and hang upside down. I was like, oh, this is hard. Yeah, much respect to the strippers.

[B]

This is hard.

[A]

This is a talent. Okay? I'm a dancer. I'm not a gymnast. And so I just was. I couldn't believe how hard it was. And then I was like, I'm going to need a choreographer. And they called Eartha, you know, and I was like, I need a choreographer and I need some help. Then I remember crying really hard because, you know, you get the movie, you maybe have a few weeks to get ready for it. I think I had a couple and I was like, yo, I'm about to be in a G string on film. I need to train. I need a minute. Okay, I've been on vacation. I just came back from Jamaica. I need a minute. So there I go. I do three hours in the morning with a trainer, two hours at night. I'm getting. I got myself in shape in 10 days. I don't think I ate for 10 days and worked out five hours a day. And I cried because they wanted to do the strip scene the first day. And I kept saying, why can't we do it at the end? Give me time to get in shape. Let's do it at the end. Nope, nope, nope. We have the location locked. We can't change it. We gotta do it the first day.

[B]

Damn.

[A]

And then I was thinking, somebody's lying to me. They just want to see, am I gonna come out with the pasties and really go for it the first day. And then after I begged everybody in the world, I realized, okay, well, they can't change it. Rise up. This is it. So, yeah, I was on the. I was on the Metrex shakes for 10 days.

[B]

Well, you're very convincing. You're amazing. Thank you. You kill it. What was it like? There's a scene with you and Jim Belushi, like, having, you know, you guys are in bed and you're Having a conversation, and you're asking him if he thinks about you too, and he sort of gives you this whole speech. There's a really sort of comfortability that you seem to have with him. Is that trying to remember the scene? Yeah. Were you excited to work with him in that capacity? Were you nervous at all working with him or.

[A]

I wasn't nervous at all.

[B]

It was just, I'm gonna take on this woman because the character is throughout the film. I mean, she is. Cynthia is a pretty elite. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think that, to me, was exciting to see you in this action thriller. It's like these cops, and you're holding your own, and you get a lot of real estate in that film. And it is surprising that you're with Jim Belushi. And, like, people may assume you're gonna be Tupac's love interest.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So you really are breaking your own barriers. And I'm just curious if you were thinking about those things as you were filming this movie.

[A]

Well, you know, by the time I did that film, you know, I had done opposite Timothy Hutton. I had done the film with Gene Hackman and Faye Dunaway and Chris o'.

[B]

Donnell.

[A]

I did opposite him. I was doing opposite all the white boys. So by the time I got to this, I was ready, okay, this is another one, you know, and let me just do my thing and try to shine. What the. The one person that made me nervous was James Earl Jones. And we have the scene where he interrogates me on the stand. And for me, it's my favorite scene.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

It always was.

[B]

Was that something that you could only dream about completely?

[A]

Because did you ever think you would.

[B]

Be in a scene with James Earl Jones?

[A]

No. No.

[B]

Were you nervous that morning?

[A]

Yes, I was excited. I was nervous and excited because I know. I knew that when you're acting with somebody like James Earl Jones, he's gonna see through you. He's gonna see through you, so you better bring it. And I remember us having a scene when we did the court scene, and I was doing my takes, and he just stayed in character. He didn't talk much to me. You know, it was just pleasantries. And when we got the take, he.

[B]

You got it.

[A]

And I was like, oh, thank you. Can I have a teacher? And when we finished that. But he said to me on another day when we were working, he said, I want you to do Cat on the Hot Tin Roof with me.

[B]

We're redoing that. And I was like, wow, I think.

[A]

I passed the test. And I wanted to do it. And I think I was pregnant by the time they did it, so that didn't happen.

[B]

Well, I think it's so interesting because you talked about not acting not being your dream, but it seems, as your career obviously flourished and bloomed, that you just continued to take it more and more seriously and understood the responsibility that was coming with the purpose that had been placed on your life and that it may not have been what you thought, but it clearly was what you were destined to do. Because to be opposite someone like James Earl Jones, as well as everyone else in the cast, but he is such a legend and icon. For him to see you and say that you were good, I think speaks to the fact that you really did hone that craft.

[A]

I worked really hard. Yeah, I worked really hard. Especially, you know, the unsung things I did, like theater at Marla Gibbs Theater and any, you know, inner city and all the things that I did once I decided to be an actor, I worked really hard because I felt like I needed to play Catch up. You know, I'm getting the opportunity before I'm really trained to do it. So I was working backwards. And I think that's what made me so ambitious and hungry, you know, because I wanted to prove myself. Because I remember doing this play, and I remember having this really tough choreographer and director who were very hard on me, and they really picked on me. And she said to me one day, I'm picking on you, because you have all the potential. You have everything that people can't buy. But you can't just have looks. You need to be good, because your looks will fade. And at the end of the day, you have to be good. You have to be talented. And people would say that to me all the time. So I was like, I have to be good. You know, they're gonna think I can't act. I have to be good, you know, because they don't expect people to look a certain way and be a great actor.

[B]

Right?

[A]

You're either one or the other. But that's not always true. You know, like Sharon Stone, she had to really go out and prove she could act, you know, because people sort of give you the opportunity before you're really ready for it. So I've always taken it really seriously. And my pet peeve today are young actors who don't study. And I'm like, so you think you're an actor? Why? Because you have a great Instagram account. Do you know what you're doing?

[B]

So real. I mean, this next movie, I want to talk about is also a period piece, and it's a movie that I saw in the movie theater, and I'm grateful that I did. And it's one of my favorite movies, I'm going to say, of all time.

[A]

What?

[B]

Why Do Fools Fall in Love?

[A]

Really?

[B]

I love this movie so much, and I think it's because I got to have that experience with my friends without my mom having to take me. And so me and, like, five of us, like, in high school, going to see this film and being educated about Frankie Lymon because I was unaware of who he was or we all were. Okay. I was like, were you aware we all were of this story?

[A]

I know. Vivica didn't know either, right? We were. None of us knew.

[B]

I asked Vivica, I said, did you know about this story? She was like, no. But to me, it was so iconic to see you. Vivica Fox, Halle Berry. Halle Berry, Lawrence Tate on that screen. And the music. Your performances. Your performance is very stunning. Someone who kind of comes around in third act and kind of is a bit of a surprise for us. Those flashbacks, what was making that movie like for you, and how did it come into your life? That movie was rough.

[A]

I don't know how they felt about.

[B]

It, but I haven't talked to Halle, talk to Divica.

[A]

For me, it's so funny. It's one of those things you appreciate later. But making it, you're just in it, and you're just roughing it.

[B]

It was hard.

[A]

And I always felt it wasn't as hard for me because I didn't feel like my role was as big as the other two. And I don't know if Eva could tell you, but we all wanted. We all wanted Zola. Everybody wanted to play Zola. It was a fight for Zola, and it was a lot of roundy, roundy round of who was going to play what. And they had actually cast a couple other people, and for whatever reason, they just. I don't know what happened. And then they came back, and then Hallie and I were at it, actually. I'm gonna tell the story. So they were gonna. It was Toni Braxton and Queen Latifah and Vivica were doing why Do Fools Fall in Love. And for whatever reason, they didn't want to do it. It didn't work out. I don't know. But we had all went in and tested for. Well, I know I had the role Vivica got. Vivica was cast as Zola at first.

[B]

And.

[A]

Then when the other two Fall out. They're like, oh, the movie's opening up again. I said, oh, is it? And they said, they want you to read for Amira. And I said, what again? I don't know, you know, because having to read it was still like, really, you know, this is far in.

[B]

Well, look, I'm grateful that it was you and Vivica and Halle.

[A]

Me, too.

[B]

Because that is the way. I just. I remember buying it immediately on DVD and just watching it all the time. I think your performance in the film is such a beautiful. It's sort of. It's the trifecta, obviously, but you complete it in that your character, who is a real person. I'm curious. Did you get to meet her?

[A]

Yes, I did.

[B]

What was that like? Oh, wow.

[A]

She was great. She was happy I was playing her. She was a lovely, lovely lady. I remember her coming to the premiere, and I can't remember much else, but the reason I say the movie was hard was because of the prosthetics.

[B]

Oh, yeah. You have to age. They age you.

[A]

We had to age.

[B]

And.

[A]

There'S a friendliness, but there's also a competitiveness when you're doing a movie.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

And it's not always exhale, roses and flowers. Sometimes it's like, me, Vivica and Hallie at that time were always in competition. And then we have to come together and work together, and we have to shine together when everybody's trying to shine themselves. So it's interesting. It was just a weird energy, but it was a good energy because we were all really committed to what we were doing, and we were all so different. Even though we're always up for the same things, we were all so different and had our own unique way of working and getting to know each other. And I think by the time we all got really comfortable with that, it was over. And then you want more, and then it's over, like, okay, I get you now, and I get you now. I love you, girl. And we, you know, and then it's over. But that's kind of how the movie works, right? And I think. You know what? And I think it started with one. That's what the movie's about. So that weird energy was carrying through a little bit. I don't know if either one of them are going to admit that, but I'm going to tell the truth. That's how I felt. And then the confusion started with the casting, and when you start with it being that confusing, you got somebody in a role who really wants to be another role, who really? Yeah. Because actually, originally Ally was Amira.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

Hallie was Amirah, and then they wanted me to test for Zola. I forget. It was making me dizzy. But they just could not decide because it's not an African American director who knew our culture and knew us. You know, sometimes they think we're all the same. Just pick one.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And we're different, right?

[B]

Well, when Vivica was here, she talked about her frustration with the box office. So. And I remember, like I said, I did see it in the movie theater, and, yeah, it could have been more packed, but I also remember seeing Eve's Bayou in an empty theater. I saw Love Jones in an empty movie theater. So I think for me, being a young person, I wasn't really phased by how many people were sitting around me.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I was more clearly zoned in on what was in front of me and what was happening. And the fact that those films that I just mentioned, whether it be why Do Fools Fall in Love, Eve's Bayou, or Love Jones, I put them into a very similar category in terms of films that have endured and films that had a direct impact on me as a writer and as an artist.

[A]

And so it didn't do well at the time.

[B]

And Vivica was very, you know, look, Vivica got an ego about that. Vivica's like, she did not really talk so much about the making of it. She was like, look, we made the movie. It was clearly a lot of star power in the movie, and it didn't do what I felt needed to do. She said, they put us up. They put us out at a weird time, and we were going up against something else that didn't make sense. And so. And I understood that frustration. But there is a thing when you talk to black folks about why the Fools Fall in Love, they're like, oh, yeah? Yeah, huh? We know it because they got to see it later. Yes, that's over. That's the thing. That's the thing. Because it was that situation where you could buy the dvd, it would come on tv, and then everybody was like, oh, this is good. This is amazing. So that was more where she. What she talked about the most in our conversation with her.

[A]

Yeah, she was very disappointed, and.

[B]

Yeah. But do you think it's also because they didn't know how to promote a movie like that? That's period. It's also about someone that folks just did not know.

[A]

All I could say is, you know, was really interested in this, about this, and this is not a brag. This is Just real is why Do Fools Fall in Love? Gang related with Tupac. And I did a movie called Knockoff with Jean Claude Van Damme. They all came out the same month or the next month, like September, October, like, all together. And I think each of them had a $5 million opening weekend, which was disappointing. And I was like, I'm in three movies. And at that time, you kind of go. And Beloved came out at that time you go, do we have too many movies now? We went from none to now we have too many. Like, is it too many? I don't know. You know, I didn't know which one to promote.

[B]

Well, I love why the Fools Fall in Love. It's one of my favorite movies. I'm grateful that you got through it and you did it. My favorite scene is at the end when they decide to come together and they start singing the song together.

[A]

That was a fun day. It was.

[B]

That was the.

[A]

That was one of the fun. You know, when we worked together, it was really fun. The courtroom, those scenes. We had a great time, but it was just, you know, for many, really, we were shooting in the middle of El Nino, so the. The. The schedule would change every day. And then, you know, it was just always something. It was just a long, overly long shoot.

[B]

Well, we're grateful for it. Thank you. Because it was worth the struggle.

[A]

It was a struggle.

[B]

Last but not least, this is a movie. I remember seeing the movie theater, and it was not empty at all. There were a lot of people, a lot of guys, a lot of energy. And I'll never forget the experience the first time me seeing this movie at a movie theater. Because it was so. Just a lot of energy and a lot of noise. Any given Sunday.

[A]

Any given Sunday, it was just an.

[B]

Amazing experience at the movie theater for obvious reasons. It is a Oliver Stone film. Oliver Stone in every sense of the word. What is it like being directed by Oliver Stone?

[A]

The highlight of my career. There are few like those directors. Those directors to have that experience, to be in an Oliver Stone film and be directed by Oliver Stone film. You know, we've talked about many things, but when I really felt like I made it was getting that film with Oliver Stone, because there's no faking it, period. And, yes, he made me read. So Loretta was right. I ended up back in the room.

[B]

Of course, Ms. Devine is right about everything.

[A]

Yes. But it was like, you know, all of a sudd on what time where I gotta be.

[B]

Okay, let's go, let's go.

[A]

You know, it started off as a Meeting a couple times. It was a meeting, and then it was like, I'm gonna need you to read with Jamie.

[B]

Jamie Foxx.

[A]

That is understandably so. So, you know, and Jamie was a newbie in film. I think that was Jamie's first film or, I don't know, lead film.

[B]

A big. A big.

[A]

It was big for both of us. Really big for him, you know, really big for him. So when we be rehearsing, Oliver would be. Right. He'd be writing. He'd be writing notes. You know, it was just an amazing experience because he. You know, I remember us rehearsing the kissing, the kitchen argument scene through the house with a Steadicam and the whole thing, and. Oh, I can't tell that story, but I remember us doing the scene, and I remember Oliver pulling Jamie to the side, and then I remember him telling me, layla. He always called me Layla. It's Leila. For everybody watching, it's Leila. He would go, layla, don't burn out. Don't burn out. Because I was coming with it. You know, I've been ready for this. I've rehearsed this. I got this. I was prepared. Jamie was with the book in the corner doing this. And I remember Oliver going to me, said, she's eating you up. She's eating your ass up, man. Come on. Come on. Yeah, Jamie. I said it. Yeah. And I was like, mm, I'm prepared. I wasn't getting cussed out by all of the Stone. Okay, So I see Jamie in the corner. You know, he's struggling.

[B]

Da, da, da, da, da.

[A]

But trust me, when that camera went and we had another chance, he was ready. Because I had been told I had gone to the Actors Studio, invited by Michael T. Actually, Michael T. Williamson, who we talked about earlier, was doing Heat with Al Pacino. He invited me to the Actors Studio to watch Al Pacino speak on Shakespeare. Wow. And when I was there, he told. He said that he wanted. He expected everybody in the film to know all the lines, not just yours. You need to know everybody's lines. So I had really gotten into that script, and I remember spending a day which was amazing. It was Jamie and I, Elizabeth Berkley, and Al Pacino in this house in Fort Lauderdale with Oliver. And we were going to rehearse in this house all day. And to watch him work was like, am I watching Scarface? Like I'm watching Al Pacino? There's no better acting class than that. Except one time, I took an acting class at Gene Hackman's home, which was amazing. And so may he rest. Yes, may he rest in peace. And, you know, just. Just Al. The Al Pacino experience was just amazing with the Oliver experience because, you know, Oliver wrote Scarface and the whole connection, and it was just a great set to be on. It was just a great set to be on. And Oliver went hard. Like, he. We were shooting nights, and he said, I want you to start waking up all day, and I need you to sleep all night. I mean, I need you to be up all night. I need you to sleep all day, because I don't want you tired when we do this. I want you guys to work. And I remember we would come out, and the sun would be coming up, and. And, you know, Oliver, let's go to liquid. Let's go to club. And me and Jamie look at each other like, no, ma'. Am. That is not gonna happen today. Isn't this guy tired?

[B]

Wow.

[A]

He was 100 miles an hour.

[B]

Yeah, well.

[A]

But very strict. Very like, mm, clearly.

[B]

I mean, you're amazing in the movie. And this is like, before the TV show, the game or basketball wives, like, really humanize what it is to be the first. Well, quarterback. He becomes the quarterback, their girlfriend, because that's another big moment that you two aren't married. No. And there's an insecurity in that. And obviously, the other wives are telling you, girl, you got to get a ring. Don't play around. And you really do, I think, embody that young, smart. She has a brain of her own. She has a life, and she's trying to be supportive. And they're both thrown into the lion's den. Not just him. She is as well. And obviously, we see how it takes a toll on their relationship and how it breaks them up. That scene between y' all in the kitchen is phenomenal, you know, where she says, my friend will probably fuck me better than you.

[A]

What did I say that you did? Cause he's like. He's like.

[B]

Cause he makes a joke about, like, you go with your friend and, like, a lesbian thing, and it's just. You feel like a real couple. How did you and Jamie bond off set? To make sure that chemistry felt real on screen, you know?

[A]

Jamie makes you laugh. He made me laugh. And that day, we. That day we were rehearsing all day. He told me joke after joke after joke, and he probably loved it because I laughed at everything. I laughed at everything. He just kept me laughing. Then he'd get on the piano, then he'd sing, and then he just. And by the time, I think Oliver And Al came out, he was asleep. That he had worn his little self out entertaining me. And I was just like, you know, we were friends. We got along really well, was very friendly. It was a good environment. It was interesting because Oliver watches you when you don't think you're watching. He's watching you. And I remember I was struggling in one of the scenes, I think, with the women. And he said to me, layla, just think about the day, the way you looked at Cameron. I said, what do you mean, how did I look at Cameron? Cameron, right. And I said, what do you mean, how did I look at her? Like, I wasn't aware how did I look at her? But I couldn't really ask. And I said, well, how did I look at her? He said, you know, you remember? And I said, oh, I was staring. I must have been staring. And I was staring because I was looking at. What is the epitome of Hollywood at that moment? You know, she's the it girl, and she's sweet and she's kind, she's fun. She's getting $10 million. And I'm going, I want to see what that looked like from head to toe. And I guess I was staring, but I guess he picked it up that there was some sort of insecurity or. I don't know what he read into what I was thinking, but he said, I want you to have that look you had that day. And I was like, well, what in.

[B]

The hell was that look? Well, there's that great scene where you have all been invited, I think, to the mayor's house or someone.

[A]

Oh, yeah, the space.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Was shot at the Al Capone mansion in Miami. Like some historic place. Yes.

[B]

I mean, and you look very. You don't look overwhelmed, but you look as if you have become a small fish in a big pond.

[A]

I was gonna say a fish out of water. And I think maybe that's what I felt like. Cause I'm on the set and, you know, my role wasn't big in that movie. I had to fight really hard for that role.

[B]

It's monumental, though. I remember you so distinctively watching that movie.

[A]

But I'm in a movie directed by Oliver Stone with Al Pacino and Cameron Diaz and all these people. And every time I meet somebody, I'm looking at them. You know, you look at them like they're little aliens, because you've been seeing them your whole life. And here I am, you know, okay, here we are.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

It's. It's the fish out of water feeling, because you Know, I really didn't get into doing a lot of the low budget movies. I kind of started with Eddie Murphy and kind of did those movies. He stayed there and stayed there. So it was always one magical experience after another.

[B]

Right. Well, I think what continues to show up even though, yes, you've had leading roles as well, but. And those stay with us. But even the movies where you're in there for maybe a few scenes or maybe there's a couple things, but they're always pivotal and they're always memorable and they always stand out. And I remember, obviously watching that movie for the first time and seeing you there. I think I wasn't alone when we all kind of felt, oh, there's Lela.

[A]

And I was trying to do something different with the braids.

[B]

With the braids going on.

[A]

I tried to get braids. I tried to.

[B]

You know, it's like, there's our beauty.

[A]

There she is. Cause I was like, okay, let me be the girl. The homegirl that he met in Terrell, Texas, and, you know, we done made it to the NFL. Let me be that girl. You know, I was trying to be that girl. And Oliver's like, I don't know about the braids. I don't know.

[B]

The braids are just like.

[A]

I fought for the braids.

[B]

I love the braids. I love the braids. The braids feel very, you know. You know, as girl next door as you can be.

[A]

I'm trying. I was trying.

[B]

Cause you're not the girl next door.

[A]

Yeah. I was trying not to get typecast. I was trying to do different characters. I was trying to step out of the zone on every role. I tried to do something different. And as not as huge as that role was, trust me, I wasn't the only one that ended up in the room reading for that. So to get. That was big for me.

[B]

And what'd you think when you saw the movie?

[A]

Um, what did I think? I just remember thinking it was really good.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Thinking it was really good. And it was really fun. It was a good time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it was good.

[B]

Yeah. That's always. You never know with those movies. You're like, how's it gonna turn out?

[A]

You never know.

[B]

And y', all, it just was a.

[A]

I got stopped on the carpet by Al, and he said, you're really great in a movie with Jamie. And I said, okay, enough said. I'm good for life. I'm good for life.

[B]

James Earl Jones. You got Eddie Murphy. Come on, go for life. Last question. What is your definition of a really Great actress.

[A]

A really great actress, I think one with range and somebody who can play anything.

[B]

I think you fit that definition. You do. As I think back about this conversation and then preparing for it, which has been such a joy and a gift, you are someone who your career could have almost been one note. Just because of how you were born and how you were blessed and how you just walk through the world, I can see people wanting to just cast you as the pretty girl. And I think what I'm grateful for is that. That you fought to be more than that.

[A]

I did. I did. I felt. Because, you know, beauty fades and I knew I had to bring more than that, you know, because, you know, and you're not always everybody's ideal beauty. I remember reading for Aaron Spelling and I was not his idea of beauty. I had too much of this and too much of that. Too many curves, you know, his idea of beauty was this, you know, so you're not always everybody's idea of beauty either, but. And. And I can't play everything. No one can. You know, we're right for what we're right for. And if I'm right for it, I'm gonna give you my best. In every moment, I'm gonna give you my best work. I'm never gonna be unprepared, and I'm gonna really try to come up with a character. I think that's the fun thing. Yeah, that's the fun of it all. To write your bio of your character, to make it up. Who are you, where you come from, who do you want? What do you want? Why do you want it? You know, all that's interesting to me.

[B]

Well, I think you've created so many memorable characters time and time again, and for you to do it so many times in so many important pivotal films, culture shifting films, you continue to show up. And again this morning, as I was sort of thinking about where you sit in our American lexicon of cinema, you absolutely are for my generation what Lena Horne was and what Dorothy Dandridge was for their generations, where we as a community could point to someone and say, you cannot deny our beauty and you can't deny our talent and you can't deny that we existed because you can't look away from her. And she is one of ours.

[A]

And I thank you so much for saying that because often I have felt overlooked and forgotten. And the fact that you see me, and you see me here and you invited me here means the world to me.

[B]

Thank you for everything.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

Well, thank you. Okay, now that's a cut.