Building a Legacy with Loretta Devine

Summary

Legacy Talk with Lena Waithe

Episode: Building a Legacy with Loretta Devine

Date: September 9, 2025
Podcast: Legacy Talk with Lena Waithe (Hillman Grad & Lemonada Media)
Guest: Loretta Devine

Episode Overview

This heartfelt conversation between Lena Waithe and legendary actress Loretta Devine is a moving celebration of Black storytelling, resilience, and legacy in entertainment. Waithe, inspired by Devine’s body of work, explores pivotal moments in Devine’s decades-spanning career—from the groundbreaking stage of Dreamgirls through iconic films like Waiting to Exhale and The Preacher’s Wife, to her Emmy-winning TV roles. The episode is a deep dive into artistry, perseverance, creative process, and the interconnected tapestry of Black performers who shaped and continue to shape the industry.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Roots, Inspiration, and Early Career

• Loretta’s Artistic Upbringing: Growing up in Houston, Devine served as artistic director at a local Black Arts center, creating plays and learning the value of improv and collaboration.

  “We built the sets, we made the costumes, we wrote the scripts… improv was really fun for me and great and I understood it and knew how to help make things happen.” (04:11)

• Making Dreams Reality: Her mother named her after Loretta Young, instilling an early sense that performance might be her destiny.

  “So you go, oh, I'm supposed to be an actress, huh, Ma?” (07:53)

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2. Dreamgirls: The Work and The Magic

• Building Dreamgirls (03:10–09:46):
  • The musical’s creation was more about collaborative workshops than traditional auditioning.
  • Major lines and iconic moments were improvised by the cast themselves, pulling from personal and collective experiences.
  • The process was grueling: “The hardest part, I think of being an actress is you have to see what you lost. ... Dreamgirls was hard for me because I was like the Invisible Dream.” (18:28)
• The Show’s Lasting Impact:
  • “It's a legend, and it's great to be part of things that last forever.” (11:00)
• Community and Competition:
  • Names like Jackée Harry and Vanessa Bell Calloway are cited as part of a “posse” of Black actresses supporting and challenging each other in the era.
• Navigating Rejection and Self-Affirmation:
  • Created her own mantras to bolster self-worth amid a competitive industry.

  “So I had to do a lot of the stuff that people always do. I made my own song to give myself… To keep my ego as far as going into things.” (18:28)

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3. Iconic Film and TV Roles: Breaking Ground in Black Hollywood

A Different World and TV (13:51–18:28)

• Breakthrough on TV:
  • Landed role as Stevie, dorm director, a career-defining “big, big job.”
  • Discusses the practical, sometimes precarious, realities of working in LA and the importance of residuals.

Class Act and Representing Black Motherhood (19:12–23:32)

• The Significance of Small Roles:
  • Even minor parts on screen allowed her to bring warmth and nuance to stereotypes and Black family life.
• “My favorite job is usually the one I'm on, because that's the only thing that's important.” (23:17)

Waiting to Exhale: A Cultural Milestone (30:03–41:29)

• Why It Mattered:
  • First major film to feature a robust, advance press tour for a Black cast; inspired future classics.
  • “That's one of the first black movies that they did advance press the way they do for white movies.” (30:58)
• Dynamic with the Cast:
  • Shared mutual support, fun, and inside jokes with Angela Bassett, Whitney Houston, and Lela Rochon.
  • “It was three months in Arizona having fun.” (34:52)
  • On creating on-screen friendships: “We hung out. We did. We went bowling a couple of times. ... So we were friends.” (35:35)
• Fame’s Aftermath:
  • “You become famous, like, overnight. And so fame feels a whole lot different than where you can just go everywhere without having to explain.” (37:43)
• Parenthood and Healthy Love:
  • Her scenes with Giancarlo Esposito and Gregory Hines depicted supportive Black families and queer Black male sexuality in a groundbreaking way.

  “You’re setting your son free and the pastor sort of does the work for you. ... That's a beautiful show.” (41:51)

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4. Legacy, Representation, and Sustaining a Career

Surviving in Show Business (52:31–55:49)

• The Realities Behind the Work:
  • Describes grind, instability, having to constantly adjust, and coping with rejection—“throwing paint against the wall; you never know what’s going to stick.”
• Finding Joy:
  • Her joy in acting comes from the work itself, not from any one role. She delights in audience feedback and stays “on point” for every job.

Voice and Voiceover Work (57:36–62:25)

• Signature Sound:
  • Recognizes her unique voice as an asset; discusses the challenge and satisfaction of voiceover jobs (notably The PJs).
  • “I never worked with Eddie Murphy. ... So I, you know, so. Because Jennifer wasn't. Yeah, everybody. I'm telling the same circles.” (58:17)
• On Representation:
  • Advocates for a diversity of Black images on screen.

  “To me, when I'm watching something, I go, where the black girls. ... Where is this world, you know?” (60:16)

• Adapting to New Media:
  • Reflects on how the internet and streaming platforms have shifted opportunities for actors, particularly post-COVID.

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5. Honors, Recognition, and Longevity

• Emmy Win for Grey’s Anatomy (69:45–73:46):
  • Winning the Emmy was affirming but didn’t “guarantee” job security.

  “I thought when I got that Emmy, I said, oh God, I'll never have to worry about working again. They fired me like a week later...” (72:19)

• Embracing Ongoing Change:
  • Acknowledges industry’s emphasis on youth but affirms the value of still working and mentoring.
  • “Now I think I'm moving into another area of show business, which is age... But so you. It's just like hurdles that you go over and hope for the best.” (74:37)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Dreamgirls Experience (03:10):
  “What we did was a six week workshop... we created it out of our own competition and imagination.” – Loretta Devine (03:10)

• On Being the “Invisible Dream” (18:28):
  “Dreamgirls was hard for me because I was like the Invisible Dream… So I had to do a lot of the stuff that people always do. I made my own song to give myself...to keep my ego.” – Loretta Devine

• On Her Definition of a Great Actress (86:03):
  “A good actress is one who gets a chance to act and work. ... Some things I've seen myself in, I can't even believe it's me. Wow. I did that, you know.” – Loretta Devine

• On Saying Yes (85:06):
  “So I always, when I can, I say yes... and you just keep sort of wishing for the best. I don't know any other way to put it.” – Loretta Devine

• On Her Place in the Industry (87:39):
  “You really are one of our dreams come true.” – Lena Waithe
  “Thank you. Because I feel real regular.” – Loretta Devine

• On the Value of Each Project (23:17):
  “My favorite job is usually the one I'm on, because that's the only thing that's important.” – Loretta Devine

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Loretta’s Childhood and Early Theater Work: 00:02–08:01
• Making and Legacy of Dreamgirls: 03:10–11:07, revisited at 64:00–68:47
• TV Breakthroughs (“A Different World,” “Class Act”): 13:51–23:32
• Iconic Film Roles & Black Sisterhood (“Waiting to Exhale”, “Preacher’s Wife”): 30:03–46:29
• Adjusting to Fame: 37:43–41:51
• Shift in the Industry Post-COVID: 29:00–30:03, 46:31–47:18
• Grey’s Anatomy & Emmy Win: 69:45–73:46
• Philosophy on Work & Legacy: 74:37–89:51
• Reflections on Representation & Changing Media: 57:36–63:55
• Final Reflections on Greatness and Legacy: 86:03–90:28

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Additional Memorable Moments

• On Relationship With Debbie Allen:
  “Every time I see Debbie [Allen] coming, I'd be like, oh, my God.” (13:25)
• On Getting Cast in A Different World:
  “I was in London doing Colored Museum and they called me back to LA for Different World for the last audition and I got it.” (14:01)
• On the Challenges of Hollywood:
  “Hollywood seems easy after you've done Broadway for four years.” (09:55)
• On Working with Whitney and the Preacher’s Wife Family:
  “We hung out. You know, I have pictures of me, her, and Lela at some club all dressed up, having fun.” (45:49)
• On Keeping Faith in Self Despite Being Overlooked:
  “You learn to create the roles that are distant from you.” (14:49)
• On Aging in the Industry:
  “Now I think I'm moving into another area of show business, which is age... So you just keep sort of wishing for the best.” (74:37)

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Conclusion

The episode offers a rich oral history of Black women blazing trails on stage, television, and film. Through humility, candor, and humor, Loretta Devine reflects on building a career defined by creativity, perseverance, and a deep sense of community. Her advice, lived example, and generous storytelling are woven into a tapestry of Black Hollywood legacy—one that continues to inspire Lena Waithe, the audience, and generations to come.

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End of Summary

Transcript

[Loretta Devine]

Lemonade. They had this contest where everybody had to bring their baby picture. And in my baby picture, I had this big old antique black phone.

[Jennifer Lewis]

And people said, damn, how damn old are you? And I thought I was the same age as everybody else.

[Loretta Devine]

I had no idea that Dreamgirls would.

[Jennifer Lewis]

Haunt us our whole lives. I'm like, Jesus Christ.

[Loretta Devine]

And the hardest part, I think of being an actress is you have to see what you lost. I'm lucky because I can be cussing.

[Jennifer Lewis]

A fan out, and they think I'm just being funny. Ms. Devine, can I take a picture? No. Get away from me.

[Interviewer]

Thank you.

[Jennifer Lewis]

I'm tired. And they go, okay, okay, okay. But you gonna take it, right?

[Interviewer]

Legacy.

[Loretta Devine]

Oh, Legacy.

[Interviewer]

First. Thank you so much.

[Loretta Devine]

Pleasure. My pleasure.

[Interviewer]

I'm really excited to talk to you about your beautiful body of work that I've been able to watch in real time. As I've gotten older and as I've decided that I wanted to be in the business and wanted to have a voice and wanted to tell stories I didn't know I wanted to be on screen. That was not a part of my plan. But I watched you on screen and heard your voice a lot. And you've been a part of. Your legacy has really inspired me to want to step into the business, to want to be a part of it, to know I could be.

[Loretta Devine]

Yes.

[Interviewer]

And for that, I'm really grateful, and I'm just really excited to talk to you about. The first thing I want to talk to you about is something I wasn't able to see because it's theater. And theater, that's the tough thing about theater, is I can hear about it. I hear the stories. And before we sat down, we talked about Ms. Shirley Ralph having sat in this chair, the Jennifer Lewis also having sat in this chair. And it was important to me to talk to Jennifer Lewis about this project, which is Dreamgirls. Even though Jennifer Lewis did not make it to the stage, per se, I. I got to be around her and hear those stories about her being a part of the beginning of that work. And it was really special to hear her story about being a part of that workshop and being the first Jennifer to say Effie's words. But when Shirley Roth was here, she talked about the audition process and how it was very harrowing and how it was a little tough. But there was something that I thought about. She. She said to me was. She said, loretta Devine, in that moment was someone that we knew, and I was aware of who she was.

[Loretta Devine]

Oh, God.

[Interviewer]

And I thought, oh, Wow. I didn't know that. And it was new information for me. And Cheryl was like, I was trying to get in there. Jennifer was trying to get in there. But we knew who Loretta was. We were aware of her. So I was excited to ask you, what was your audition process like and what did that feel like when you stepped into that room?

[Loretta Devine]

I think they may have known me because I had been in a few other Broadway shows before I got Dreamgirls. I was in Coming Uptown with Gregory Hines. And that's sort of like when I finally got into films and I did Waiting to Exhale with Gregory Hines as my leading man. That made that very easy and very exciting for that particular thing. But Dreamgirls was such a long process. I think a lot of people don't know anything about how it came about. I don't think I had an audition per se. I think they already knew that I could sing and stuff. So what we did was a six week workshop, seven six week workshops in creating Dreamgirls. And we created it out of our own competition and imagination and feelings about different things that were happening. Henry Krieger was on the piano and.

[Jennifer Lewis]

He had taught himself how to play music by ear.

[Loretta Devine]

And so they would do improvs. And lucky for me, I'm from Houston, Texas. I had been the artistic director of the Black Arts center, which was a theater group in Houston that did plays for the community. And we built the sets, we made the costumes, we wrote the scripts, and we did it a lot of times from improv. But when I got there, improv was really fun for me and great and I understood it and knew how to help make things happen. So, like the line, like, it's showbiz, it's just showbiz. Which was all the way through Dreamgirls. I made up that line. There are lines that. There are lines that Jennifer, that we. The whole thing came from the terror and the pressure of creating when sometimes you'd be happy that things were approved, other times you would be terrified that you were going to have to do certain things. And when people left, like when Jennifer left and came back and Cheryl and I had to be close to make sure that we continue to work in it. So Cheryl said was the most beautiful time in her life and the worst time in her life because it was so hard. It was so many hard things going on and we didn't know if they were going to continue with us. There were people that were there before us. The idea of it had been around a long time with Tom Eyen and we lost people that we had fallen in love with. Ramona Brooks, who was. Nobody ever got to really know, but she was an incredible talent. So there were people that came and go, what happened with Jennifer? There were stories that made it and didn't make it. And so. And Cheryl Lee and I were there for all of them.

[Interviewer]

Did you. As that was happening, were you able to take it in the magic that was going on in that room? Or were you just so focused on the work every day?

[Loretta Devine]

Oh, God, I think we were focused on the work every day because we didn't know what was going to happen as a result of the things that we created. How do I put this? And also, there were a lot of other things going on because once the show got up in 81 and it ran for four straight years, that was when the work really started in that so many other things started happening in the show and outside of the show. They decided to create another show just like our show for L. A. But they wouldn't let us come.

[Jennifer Lewis]

Sherrill Lee was determined to go, and.

[Loretta Devine]

We were upset about it. There were things that happened as a result of that and conflict with her and Michael Bennett that Sheryl Lee handled.

[Jennifer Lewis]

In only the way Sheryl Lee can handle things. And I want to save and tell it on her when she get her.

[Loretta Devine]

Star on Walk of Fame, so everybody.

[Jennifer Lewis]

Will know what Sheri Lee, when she.

[Loretta Devine]

Was that young and that cute and that.

[Jennifer Lewis]

That confident, I think. I think the thing that was so.

[Loretta Devine]

Incredible about her at the time was that she actually knew her worth. A lot of times when you're that young, you don't know what your value is. So there were so many things going on at the time. There were people that would say, don't go over to so and so's house.

[Jennifer Lewis]

Because we might not ever see you again.

[Loretta Devine]

There were all kind of things that were happening. I mean, it was. It was the big city, and we had come from everywhere. I came from Houston. I just came and I don't know what. I don't know what made me think I could just come and do it, because my mom named me Loretta, after Loretta Young.

[Jennifer Lewis]

She used to tell me. So you go, oh, I'm supposed to be an actress, huh, Ma? Yeah. So it's sort of like it was.

[Loretta Devine]

That kind of dream, and it's really the kind of dreaming that young people do. I mean, you dream about doing something. I got a chance to go to University of Houston to study it, and then you just. You go and do it and you don't know how I felt. Everybody had a different story. And there's a posse of girls that were there at the same time that were trying to create their lives. Jack A. Harry. Vanessa Bell Calloway. Oh, God. Debbie Burrell, Terry Burrell, Roz Ryan. You could just go on and on. There was at least about 20 girls that were always auditioning for the same thing, that were always trying to be in the. I got Hair with Elena Reed when she was there. And Elena told me, if you mess up, I'm gonna knock your ass off this scaffold.

[Jennifer Lewis]

And there were people that were teaching life lessons, you know, and you were like, oh, my God. Oh, my God, am I gonna stand up under. From under the sheet? Oh, God. Because in hair, you could stand up naked at the end, you know, So I was like, oh, my God, my mama killed me. So there were all these stupid things in your head, you know, but you were young, and I was not even as young as I thought I was young, you know, because when I should.

[Loretta Devine]

Tell the story, because you were talking about Dreamgirls when I was. They had this contest where everybody had to bring their baby picture. And in my baby picture, I had this big old antique black phone.

[Jennifer Lewis]

And people said, damn, how damn old are you? And I thought I was the same age as everybody else, but I think I was five years ahead or so. But. But still, it was like a century to them. And you have to realize that at.

[Loretta Devine]

That time, we didn't have the Internet. We didn't have all of the things that everybody has to become rich and famous. And so it was sort of like grinding through.

[Jennifer Lewis]

We were all.

[Loretta Devine]

Once the show happened, we were all trying to get record deals. We were all trying to figure out what the next thing would be, or we didn't know how long it would last, or those kind of things. And then you had an instrument that you had to use totally every night. Was running up and down stairs to read, to dress, to be back in time before the flat hit, the whatever. So it was really a challenge. And I think it gets you over ready for Hollywood, because Hollywood seems easy after you've done Broadway for four years. You know, it's just another kind of thing.

[Interviewer]

What does it feel like to be one of the original dream girls?

[Loretta Devine]

I. I had no idea that dream girls would haunt us.

[Jennifer Lewis]

Our whole lives. I'm like, jesus Christ, they're doing it in Japan. I mean, they're doing it. I mean, every high school girl. I mean, it, it.

[Loretta Devine]

It's a legend, and it's great to be part of things that last forever.

[Interviewer]

Dreamgirls obviously had a real impact, and it stuck not just with you, but with all of us. And even though there are those of us that weren't around yet and we couldn't go and experience it, but there's an image, there's a photograph that a lot of us have seen, which I think speaks to the impact of what you all were doing at that time. And it's a gorgeous photo of Ms. Phylicia Rashad and Ms. Debbie Allen standing in front of the theater in the classic iconic pose from the poster. And they have obviously gone to see it, these two amazing black artists women. And in the image, they're just so joyful and so happy and excited. And even though I couldn't see it, I can feel the joy in them and what you all obviously just gave them in your.

[Loretta Devine]

Debbie, Felicia and I are all from Houston, Texas.

[Interviewer]

Come on.

[Loretta Devine]

And when I got to New York, Debbie. Debbie had was already established in my mind. So I, like, contacted her and said, what can I get into? What can I do? And Felicia ended up doing Dreamgirls. So.

[Jennifer Lewis]

And I think Debbie. Debbie met her husband Norm at the backstage door of Dreamgirl. So it was like, I feel like I'm telling secrets or something, but it was still all of these.

[Loretta Devine]

Inter. Things that were going on that you would only know about if you were in it. I think Debbie's first play.

[Interviewer]

It was a sweet charity. It wasn't Debbie Allen.

[Loretta Devine]

Some girl went away on vacation and Debbie was the understudy. When she came back, Debbie was, get out of there.

[Interviewer]

Let me be here.

[Jennifer Lewis]

It was like. And to this day, when I see Debbie, if I'm doing a show and I see Debbie Allen coming, I go, oh, God. Because I was doing Different World.

[Interviewer]

You just. It was great. You just took me to my next.

[Jennifer Lewis]

When Debbie Allen came and it was like, oh, when I was doing Gray's an Allen, Grey's Anatomy, when Debbie Allen came, I was like, I think they.

[Loretta Devine]

Killed my character the day after I got the Emmy or something. And so every time I see Debbie coming, I'd be like, oh, my God. I think the last time I saw her was at the Juanita Moore's Star on the Walk of Fame. And we talk all the time because I worked in her shows and everything, but I'd be like.

[Jennifer Lewis]

I said, debbie, don't come over here. Stay over there, don't visit over here or nothing. So it was like that.

[Interviewer]

Well, you mentioned the show a Different World. That means a Ton. To me, A Different World changed my life.

[Loretta Devine]

Changed mine too.

[Interviewer]

How did it change your life?

[Loretta Devine]

I was in London doing Colored Museum and they called me back to LA for Different World for the last audition and I got it. And that was the first time I had brought my mom to London. She'd never been on a plane and I had to leave her there by herself with the cast of Color Museum to take care of her while I was gone. And I got the job and so it was a very exciting time. It was like my first big, big job. And so as Stevie. Yeah, as Stevie, the dorm director who.

[Interviewer]

Dwayne Wayne hits on sort of like not realizing.

[Jennifer Lewis]

Yeah, a couple of those silly roles. But I think, to me, I think.

[Loretta Devine]

A lot of times I'm cast because of the lightness of my voice and because I'm kind of Southern or I may be a lot Southern. And I think a lot of. A lot of people have to understand that a lot of times the casting is because of their personage underneath. And then if you. If you've studied acting, because I have a PhD in theater arts from anyway, University of Houston and Brandeis University, then. And you have to learn to create the roles that are distant from you. But people like to hire what they feel or what they see or what you make them feel. And so a lot of times that happens.

[Interviewer]

What is it like being on a multi cam sitcom that's a spinoff of a really popular show, but in its first season, because it's also your first sort of big gig, it's multicam, so it's in front of a live audience, which I don't think bothers you, but is it interesting to be a part of a first season of something not knowing what it is or what it's gonna be?

[Loretta Devine]

See, I had this mentality that was probably all wrong because I didn't have a lot of money and I was by myself. I was on my own when I first hit la. And so it was sort of like the more I work, the more you get residuals. And that whole residual thing was like, really important to me. So on Different World and what they don't talk about is whatever is going on at the top of it has a lot to do with what it actually is going to be. So a lot of people had come through and were gone. Phyllis Stickland, I think, who was very popular. There were a lot of popular divas that had been on it. And I came to LA with the colored museum, so they had seen that, which was part of whatever came Afterwards. But it was exciting. It was scary, too, because they were letting people go and they were making decisions about what the show was going to be. They weren't sure at first how dramatic it was going to be or how funny it was going to be. If you'll notice, most of the people in show business, in black theater and in black show business are comedians. I mean, they are the ones that are given their own shows. They're the number one on the call list. Usually if you're doing drama or whatever, even if you have a college education in it, it don't matter to nobody. Don't nothing matter. It's the weirdest thing. Yeah. They don't look at how much you've done. And a lot of the times your work comes from people you work with before or people that have seen you and said, oh, yeah, I could deal with that. Or, I like the way she does that. Which is surprising for you. When I came into the business, I thought the more work you did, the more important you should be. But that doesn't apply. I thought the more people, the longer something was alive because it was a good work. But then I found out you have to pay for a publicist. You have to. A lot of times people are paying to become famous in. In lots of ways. So once you deal with that, and the hardest part I think of being an actress is you have to see what you lost. You go up for things. You didn't get it, you lost it. You see it and you go, I can't believe this.

[Jennifer Lewis]

That happens a lot. And then you go, okay, stop being.

[Loretta Devine]

So hard on yourself, because you do. I mean, Dreamgirls was hard for me because I was like the Invisible Dream. They would go to Jennifer Holiday, then they would go to Cheryl, and if those two couldn't do it, they would skip and go to Ben Hunt to the men. And so I called myself the Invisible Dream for the longest. And so that does. Has an effect on your ego or the way you. So I had to do a lot of the stuff that people always do. I made my own song to give myself. Like I Am Loretta Divine. Yeah. You know, that kind of thing. To keep my ego as far as going into things. But I did okay. When I got to la, I didn't know I would, you know, but it. It worked out okay. It's worked.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. And there's a movie that I got to revisit on, doing my research for this that brought me a ton of joy because I used to watch it way too much. Just every Single Day. A movie called Class Act. Class act where you play Blade's mom. And what's so interesting about that movie is that as I was just like looking through the papers and looking for the character's name, it literally just says Blade's mom.

[Loretta Devine]

Uh huh.

[Jennifer Lewis]

And it was a small part.

[Loretta Devine]

They consider it a small part compared to.

[Interviewer]

But as I watched the movie again in its entirety, there's a really beautiful scene with you and Blade. Blade. And there's a flower, there's a rose on the table while he's doing his homework. And you ask him about it.

[Loretta Devine]

Yes.

[Interviewer]

And he says it's for you. And it's just a quiet smile and a moment between the two of you that I think as a kid just watching the movie and just all the time and not thinking about it, I think as I sat there last night watching it again as a 40 year old woman, you know, and also paying attention even closer to you, I could just see your magic. You became even more visible to me in that scene. I'm just curious, what was it like being on that set or was it just another job?

[Loretta Devine]

Well, nothing was just another job. It was like a big thing. If you got a job, it was always like. Cause you never knew. The thing about acting too is that once the first job ends, you never know when you're going to get your necklace or how the next job is going to come about. And writers often make the importance of the lead character more by the relationship they have with their parents. So because I was always playing somebody's mom from the time I started almost, I mean, I did my first big movie was Lil Nikita with Sidney Poitier. To me that was a huge, huge movie. But then there was trauma in that too.

[Jennifer Lewis]

But she was going, it was, I'll tell you about it if you want to know. But anyway, you know, so you're always.

[Loretta Devine]

Excited to work, but when you first get started, you can't figure out why.

[Jennifer Lewis]

Are these people following around.

[Loretta Devine]

You can't even go to the bathroom.

[Jennifer Lewis]

Without somebody knowing where you are. What is the problem with this? And people bossing you around all day, they put the makeup on and then they don't want you to touch it. And then you go, hell, I'm bringing me some extra powder because I'm shining. And this woman don't seem to notice. So you have all these things that you're trying to keep straight, you know. So I think that they should figure.

[Loretta Devine]

Out a way to let young people know all these things because they really expect.

[Jennifer Lewis]

Some joyous blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But it's a job. It's a work.

[Loretta Devine]

You have to know your lines. You have to hit the mark.

[Jennifer Lewis]

You have to know what they mean when they said banana, too. You go, banana. One of my banana. Okay, I gotta figure that out the next time. You got to learn how to cry on cue. They ain't got all wait all day. Because if you playing a black mom, 9 chance after 10, you're gonna have to cry. There are all these basic things that you have to learn to make this stuff work quick. If Debbie is directing it, if Tyler is directing it, it's, come on, let's go, let's get this done. And you.

[Loretta Devine]

You. You know.

[Jennifer Lewis]

You know that that's the way she works.

[Loretta Devine]

And. And so you learn, you know, get it in there.

[Jennifer Lewis]

You're gonna be looking stupid in this movie. So, you know, once you learn those.

[Interviewer]

Kinds of things, cry quick.

[Jennifer Lewis]

Oh, got it on top of it. A little bit better. So it was always a joy to work. People always ask me, what's your favorite? My favorite job is usually the one I'm on, because that's the only thing that's important.

[Loretta Devine]

Because if you do whatever job you do, your worst job in May may cause you to lose a lot of things that you would not have lost if you had been on point. So you always. I always try to be on point. I don't care who. I've done so many independent, unimportant films or that people may. But the ones that have been the most effective have sometimes been the smaller films. You never know. It's like throwing paint against the wall. You never know what's going to stick, what's going to mean something. But people will let you know. Your fans will say, you did this for my family. Because when they saw this, that made us feel this way, and that made me feel good. And I'm lucky because I can be cussing a fan out, and they think.

[Jennifer Lewis]

I'm just being funny. Mr. Van, can I take a picture? No, get away from me.

[Interviewer]

Thank you.

[Jennifer Lewis]

I'm tired. And they go, okay, okay, okay. But you. You gonna take it, right?

[Interviewer]

It's your voice, it's the approach, it's the lightness.

[Loretta Devine]

And it's also the fact that I do love people. I think people are just, you know.

[Jennifer Lewis]

You got to really catch me when I'm running. And it's usually I have to be.

[Loretta Devine]

Somewhere, do something where. Because my husband fusses at me because.

[Jennifer Lewis]

He said, you never want to say no.

[Loretta Devine]

I like saying yes. It make People feel good, you know, so it's that kind of thing. I haven't answered any of your questions, have I?

[Interviewer]

You have. Beautifully. Beautifully. There's another show that you were in. You popped up in season two. And I used to watch this show a ton with my family. And rewatching it again, it brought back so many great memories. And I'm talking about Rock. And the first episode you appear in is season two, and it's a season opener. And in watching it, there's this cool thing where Rock starts the episode. Well, Charles. Charles Dutton starts the episode and tells you that it's gonna be filmed live. It's a funny episode and it's good, and you're great there. And I'm just curious what that was like for you to be on that show and how was that experience filming with them. And also a little trivia that I didn't realize until I watched it again that Lila Rashawn is also in the same episode that you are in. And I'm curious if you two crossed paths while taping the episode.

[Loretta Devine]

I don't know. Feels like I met Lela on a Wayne to exhale.

[Interviewer]

But you two are in the same episode.

[Loretta Devine]

Really? Okay.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Loretta Devine]

Well, see, I knew Charles Dutton from doing a movie with him, which was one back. Way back in the day. And I used to say to him, stop looking at me, Dutton. Your eyes feel like hands. Just go look over yonder.

[Interviewer]

Look over yonder. Come on. Houston is in the building. Jesus.

[Jennifer Lewis]

Look on yonder. I think we were in something where we had slave clothes on or something. I can't remember, but look up the movie. It's in the IMDb.

[Loretta Devine]

Okay. How was it like? It's always excited to get on a TV show because it feels like you're.

[Jennifer Lewis]

Gonna be rich, you know, because it goes through, like 26 and 27 of these.

[Interviewer]

You're in a few episodes, you pop up, you stick around.

[Loretta Devine]

I was like, in a couple episodes. So you were like, oh, God, yeah, I'm gonna have some money. I'm going to be able to chill. So then you don't worry so much about what your next job is going to be. You chill for a while until somebody calls and say, yeah, they are interested in you for something else. And then you go, okay.

[Interviewer]

Are you thinking about character work? Are you. When you're going in to do a show or you're a guest in the show, but you're a part of the cast? I'm just curious what's going through your mind as you're Showing up for work every day just to do a good job.

[Loretta Devine]

Well, once you get the script, you create the character. You decide on what the particular relationships are, and you decide how you fit into the game. And unless the director gives you other directions, you're cool. You're fine with whatever you come up with. So I've always tried to create my character before the director get to me, because, see, like, all directors aren't sane. Although people think.

[Jennifer Lewis]

You know, sometimes the director.

[Loretta Devine]

I've been in a. Well, I've been on a couple of shows where you go, what the hell?

[Jennifer Lewis]

What show is that? So you have to, you know, be sure you got a clear view of what you're doing.

[Interviewer]

Wow.

[Loretta Devine]

And what you're trying to create. And so when they put their spin on it, you go, okay, that'll make certain sense. But you still have to control what you're doing and believe in what you're doing, no matter what they're doing, because you don't know what they got going on in their head necessarily. And usually if. Usually I learned from being on Gray's Anatomy because they would have a different director every week, and Ellen Pompeii would say, I do this every day, so you can tell me so much, but I'm gonna do what I have created. So it was sort of like I felt. I usually feel that way about. Especially now that I'm older and I don't care. You can find me if you want to.

[Jennifer Lewis]

So. But usually now I'm like, I just.

[Loretta Devine]

Finished doing the Ms. Pat show.

[Interviewer]

Jordan Cooper.

[Jennifer Lewis]

And I really fell in love with.

[Loretta Devine]

Her before I saw. Before I did the show, because we got a chance to do a small play. Well, not a movie that has. Is trying to come out. And the world changed after Covid. Before COVID if you did a movie, it would be in the. In the movie houses in a couple of weeks, and if it lasts two weeks, that was good. They made. Everybody made their money back. But it's so different now. People make all these incredible movies, and they don't. There's nowhere to put them. If they put them somewhere, somewhere that's streaming, it's not in the movie house, because people aren't going to the movie houses the way they used to, and they haven't figured out a way to get them to go back yet, and they're hoping that that happens. So there are a lot of festivals, and so doing press can go on for three years or something.

[Jennifer Lewis]

I mean, they can call you and go, ooh, we finally got such.

[Loretta Devine]

And Such in the water at this festival or that festival. And so now maybe we can stream it or sell it to Netflix or something like that. So. So it's a different reality.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, it's interesting. You talk about going to the movie houses. This next movie we're gonna talk about is one that did very well at the box office and people were going to the movie houses. And I remember being little, young 12 year old, shouldn't have even been going to see this movie. But I was like everybody else and wanted to go be in the theaters. Talking about Waiting till Exhale.

[Loretta Devine]

Oh, my God.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, it is one of those films that just sticks. It's stuck.

[Loretta Devine]

That's a classic.

[Interviewer]

Yes, it's stuck in the moment. You guys stuck the landing right away. And what I think was so amazing at that time, me being a young person, like watching my mom and her friends and seeing that press tour, which was a big, robust press tour, you all. And obviously Terry McMillan. I just remember understanding that it was important.

[Loretta Devine]

Yeah, it was important.

[Interviewer]

I just knew it was important. I could feel that.

[Loretta Devine]

That's one of the first black movies that they did advance press the way they do for white movies. They started talking about Wayne took Hale months, months, months ahead of time. They started, the women started planning their parties and they had all read the book and they'd had the book club thing. And so it had a huge following. There were all these things that movies that came about because of Waiting to Exhale that were white things. What is in four white girls that was running around on TV after that?

[Interviewer]

Sex and the City.

[Jennifer Lewis]

Yes, that came about.

[Loretta Devine]

A lot of things came from that and it was so successful because when, when the community decides that this is going to be. This is good and I'm going to push it. And the community was strong behind Waiting to Exhale. They were very strong. They were strong behind Preacher's Wife because it was Denzel and Whitney and so. And it was a glorious time to be in the movies for me because, God, it was like so great when the movies came out and they had.

[Jennifer Lewis]

The big parties, you dress up and oh, I'm so wonderful. And. Yes. And then now where am I gonna work next?

[Interviewer]

Well, look, I mean, that movie obviously did a great deal for the industry, for all four of you. I'm curious, how familiar were you with the book before it became a film? Were you a part of that group of women that understood the book, knew that it was important?

[Loretta Devine]

Yes.

[Interviewer]

Okay.

[Loretta Devine]

And so when Tara macmillan was hot, everybody was reading everything that she wrote.

[Interviewer]

When you Read it. Were you thinking that this should be a movie or was that really far from your mind?

[Loretta Devine]

Oh, no, I never thought like that. I never knew what should be anything.

[Jennifer Lewis]

That wasn't my thing. It wasn't my thing.

[Interviewer]

So when it came about that it was gonna be a film, did it kind of hit your radar that you thought maybe could I be a part of it?

[Loretta Devine]

You wanted to get on. You wanted to audition for it, which was the thing. And I had been in a film in Canada or something. I hadn't seen black people for like a month. And my co star hollered, black man on the elevator.

[Jennifer Lewis]

And I went running.

[Loretta Devine]

And I got on the elevator, I just hit the wall and said, hi.

[Jennifer Lewis]

And I didn't know who he was.

[Loretta Devine]

But it turned out it was Forest Whitaker later. And then when I went to audition.

[Jennifer Lewis]

I prayed he didn't remember me as the dumb chick in the elevator. That's all I said, was I. But it had happened years before I got the audition.

[Loretta Devine]

And it was. The whole thing was about. We were all the four women were so different, but sort of like covered a big spectrum. I was considered the fat girl. So they say, you got to eat.

[Jennifer Lewis]

Because we want you to be big in this movie.

[Loretta Devine]

And so. And Lela was the sexy one. Angela Bassett was. We used to laugh because Angela was always so proper. Wendy would go, where is she? She is still in character.

[Jennifer Lewis]

I go, no, this is just the way Angela talks. Leave her alone. So, you know, when you think about all these women always together, everybody is.

[Loretta Devine]

So, you know, Angela and I have worked together in a couple of films and Lela and I have worked together in a couple of films.

[Interviewer]

What was that set like?

[Jennifer Lewis]

Well, Gregory Hines brought me roses my week when they did my stuff.

[Loretta Devine]

So I made everybody as jealous.

[Jennifer Lewis]

I was just like, jeff, I said, what did your lead man get? It was sort of like that, you know, it was like, shut up, Loretta. But anyway, it was that kind of. I mean, it was fun.

[Loretta Devine]

It took them three months to do Waiting to Excel. They took their time. They.

[Jennifer Lewis]

Who did?

[Loretta Devine]

They had to teach somebody how to swim.

[Jennifer Lewis]

I mean, I think it was me because I supposed to have a near drowning experience in the pool. And it really was, but they cut it out the movie. So it was fun. It's always exciting. I mean, you're getting. I shouldn't say you're getting free meals, free boarding. I mean, it's the life, you know, if you can really get into movies. And it was three months in Arizona having fun.

[Interviewer]

What did you all do you, Whitney, Angela and Lela do? To ensure that we believed you all as friends, Were there some. Did you guys say, hey, okay, we gotta hang out, or.

[Loretta Devine]

Yeah, we hung out. We did. We went bowling a couple of times. We went to parties, we went to games. So we were friends. I mean, and everybody. Like I say, you're in. You're inside. When you're an actress at a certain period of time, you're in a reality where you all audition for similar things if you're in the same age group. So everybody sort of know everybody. And so you have relationships already established. Like, I was doing. I was doing theater. And everybody that was interested in theater in San Diego, that theater in San Diego, I did the Billie Holiday story, Jennifer Lewis, everybody. It would be 30 of the actors come to see what you're doing, you know, because that's how it goes. And Jennifer got on the table and.

[Jennifer Lewis]

Did a big speech, you know, and it was like.

[Loretta Devine]

It was just the way it was. So when you. When you're working with people that you know that you've loved for a long time, that you sort of, like, know what their temperament is. I love the way Jennifer is.

[Jennifer Lewis]

Some people go, she's like, she's too big. She's too big. Yeah. But that's Jennifer. She's the best.

[Loretta Devine]

She's the best, you know, and so it's always. It was fun. You. You get to know everybody and you get the. And they kicked us out. When we did what they kicked us out of. At first, they let us see the dailies, but it was one scene where.

[Jennifer Lewis]

Whitney had these white shoes on. And we started laughing so loud.

[Loretta Devine]

They said, you cannot come back to.

[Jennifer Lewis]

The dailies because you all don't know how to act. That was me, Leila, Angela. We were like in the dailies going, what the hell is that? And they put us out. So it was that kind of. So we didn't care. We went clubbing or something. But it was fun.

[Interviewer]

Were you nervous about the buildup and the pressure surrounding the movie? Because there was so much excitement. There was so much talk. There was so much a desire for the movie to be everything that we all wanted.

[Loretta Devine]

Yeah, it totally changed my life. I couldn't go anywhere because, I mean, people were in an airport. If they recognized you, you had to run. I mean, in New York, I mean, it was huge. And I had never been in anything that made that big of a difference. I mean, but it did. And so you become famous, like, overnight. And so fame feels a whole lot different than where you can just go everywhere without having to explain the. Because people want to know, why are you in my world? What the hell? Why aren't you in the tv? I mean. Or why aren't you? What?

[Jennifer Lewis]

Oh, my God.

[Loretta Devine]

You know, that kind of thing. But now. But even when that came out, it wasn't Internet crazy yet. I mean, people weren't making a living off of having a picture with you. So now it's so different. Because a picture with you will change something. I don't know. It's a different thing from then. I mean, because they want to hold you, people want to hug you. Men and women. Women. And they want to show you the walk.

[Jennifer Lewis]

Remember when you turned around and walked?

[Loretta Devine]

Did that walk? The men would do the walk.

[Jennifer Lewis]

He would go, this is so crazy.

[Interviewer]

But it's such an iconic scene. When you were filming that, did you and Gregory, were you talking about it beforehand? Did you have a sense what Forrest was going for? I'm curious. What did you feel like when you first saw it on the screen?

[Loretta Devine]

When we first saw the movie, a lot of stuff got cut out. Cause like I said, they shot for three months. That's a whole lot of shooting, right? And so they. They. And they worked a long time to get it exactly the way they wanted. But we just would do the same. We just would do it. Giancarlo's exposito, who played my husband Giancarlo.

[Interviewer]

Amazing. Phenomenal.

[Loretta Devine]

You would never know what to range that of things he's done. And it was just. He wasn't like huge. You know, you can say his name now and everybody know who you're talking about. But it was just. You would wish that every movie you worked in was that exciting and had all of that stuff going on that was going on. And Forrest was very soft spoken. He would come in and go, everybody be quiet. Forrest is here. He's gonna say something. Did he say it yet?

[Jennifer Lewis]

Shh. Shut.

[Loretta Devine]

Shut up.

[Jennifer Lewis]

It was that kind of attitude.

[Loretta Devine]

Everybody was protective of everybody else. And I think you can see the love in the movie. The love sort of like shows and the feelings that everybody had for each other. And there was an order. I think Angela was sort of like the boss. Cause she could change the mood of the room because she was. Because of her presence, you know, her presence. And you go, here she comes.

[Interviewer]

Look, I've had to get in the ring with her. It's no joke. Like, you gotta step your game up. When you're in the scene with Angela, you're like, hold on. Cause Am I doing this right? She's like royalty. It's a very.

[Jennifer Lewis]

But certain people have that as.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, it's just her aura.

[Loretta Devine]

That's what they have in their presence.

[Jennifer Lewis]

So.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Jennifer Lewis]

Well, I think it's all good.

[Interviewer]

You have such beautiful scenes in that movie with your son and those. They're funny, but they're heartfelt and humorous. I really. I got a chance to work with Giancarlo Esposito on a film and I got to watch him up close and see how he works. And it was really important for me because I remember those scenes with you and him and also dealing with just queer black male sexuality in a way that I don't think we understood was as significant as it was at the time.

[Loretta Devine]

Exactly.

[Interviewer]

But the character work with you and Gregory Hines is so special and so beautiful because we're getting a chance to see what healthy love looks like and him encouraging her to let her son spread his wings. And also the amazing church scene where you're not even saying any lines, but it's. You're setting your son free and the pastor sort of does the work for you.

[Loretta Devine]

That's a beautiful show.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. And you're a big part of that. You're a huge part of it. And so I just. Waiting to exhale means so much to all of us. This is the first time we've talked about it on Legacy Talk, which brings me to another classic in your legacy, in your repertoire. It's not Christmas until I watch this movie, the Preacher's Wife.

[Loretta Devine]

So much happened in the filming of that movie. That was a long shoot, too. It was. I don't think it was three months, but that was Penny Marshall.

[Interviewer]

Yes, I know.

[Loretta Devine]

And a major fire happened while we. And I wrote poems about it and put it in my one woman show while we were filming that movie. And they had to. I think people's lives were lost and everything. And they had to figure out a way to get the fire trucks into where the set was. And it. And that. I remember that more about that movie than anything. It was always exciting because we were doing to me. Or weird to me because we were doing church scenes at. Penny March would have thicker.

[Jennifer Lewis]

Okay, now we're going to do.

[Loretta Devine]

She. She was a non stop smoker.

[Jennifer Lewis]

And then it went on through the whole movie. Jennifer Lewis, we were all there doing that movie together. And it was interesting. Some things I can't talk about, but it was very interesting.

[Interviewer]

It's interesting because it's a very wholesome movie.

[Jennifer Lewis]

It is wholesome.

[Interviewer]

It's wholesome. And it's one of those movies that I just watched all the time, even when it wasn't Christmas. But now every Christmas I think we all revisit it.

[Loretta Devine]

And so Titus Burgess wrote, has been.

[Interviewer]

Working on a musical.

[Jennifer Lewis]

Yeah.

[Loretta Devine]

And I did, I did the stage production of it for three months in. Oh God. This past year at the Atlantis Alliance Theater in Atlanta, Georgia. And that was like, oh my God. It was an experience and a half. Amber Riley played, played Whitney's part, the preacher's wife. Yeah. And because she had to, you have to really sing over and over and over and over. And so they're still trying to get that done and they may be successful. Who knows?

[Interviewer]

I mean, I love that. I'd love for the legacy of that film to continue. And obviously it is a remake of another film called the Bishop's Wife. But to see it through a black lens, even though, you know, with the lovely white woman directing it. What was it like to. I love Penny Marshall, RIP I know.

[Jennifer Lewis]

I love Penny Marshall too.

[Interviewer]

I mean, what was it like being directed by her?

[Loretta Devine]

She had a real. I mean we would do things over and over until it was like perfect in the idea that was given. But when I think of her, I just think about this woman with this cigarette going, now we're going to do this, we're going to do it again. And we're going to do it again until we get this right now. We're going to do this now. I said, she's smoking in church. She's not supposed to have a cigarette in church. She don't know where she's at. Oh my God. Penny put that cigarette up. And Whitney's real mom was there and then Jennifer was playing her mom. And Jennifer and, and, and, and, and with real mom was always like, will you go sit?

[Jennifer Lewis]

Well, I'm the mom. And oh God. It was, it was a great experience.

[Interviewer]

Was it? It's interesting. Obviously you and Whitney had worked together previously.

[Jennifer Lewis]

Uh huh.

[Interviewer]

Was there a sort of even more comfort knowing that she would be around again and you guys would kind of get to be around each other again? It's almost. Ms. Angela's spirit is almost there. Cause Courtney B. Vance is there and you know, how did it feel to be. It felt like a very familial set.

[Loretta Devine]

We hung out. You know, I have pictures of me, her and Lela at some club all dressed up, having fun.

[Jennifer Lewis]

And yeah, it.

[Loretta Devine]

Was always wonderful to know that you're gonna. My mindset was sort of like once you start working and you're working a lot and you're working with. Working with things. It just. It's like a snowball that rolls. It never occurred to me that things would be as big as they became or as important as they were to everybody. It was like, you just go do your job and be, you know, and everything is gonna be fine. It was sort of that attitude, I think.

[Interviewer]

Wow.

[Loretta Devine]

Until Covid.

[Jennifer Lewis]

It was like. It's like now you're just not sure.

[Loretta Devine]

What'S gonna happen, what an egg is gonna. Cause it was sort of like that, that now. But then it was, this is what. This is Hollywood. This is. And then at a point, there are things that. That flip that you don't understand because you've outgrown the group or the age group changes, and then it becomes about a whole new group of girls. Like the girls in black is the new orange or whatever. Orange is the new black or whatever. So then everything becomes about the next group that's coming up.

[Interviewer]

Next wave, if you will.

[Loretta Devine]

The next wave of new people. And then things begin to change. And it has to. Things changed when you came on the scene. Yeah, that was a new. And Doug G' Day came around about the same time. Her name, Ava. Unless you mean messing up every.

[Interviewer]

I like the way you said better. No, Ava was here the other day as well.

[Jennifer Lewis]

I've worked with Ava, too, but in.

[Loretta Devine]

Cecily Tyson, the last show she did with Cecily Tyson. And. Yeah, I remember Quincy Jones. Yes, that was.

[Jennifer Lewis]

My memory of things is funny. So when you ask me stuff like, all I remember is when I did that show with Cecil, she go, what are you doing here? I said, I'm playing your best. Oh, okay.

[Interviewer]

Well, speaking of Ms. Cicely Tyson, one of our icons who is no longer earthside but still, you know, reigns and is. Her spirit is still around. Movie hoodlum comes to mind for you. What was that like to be in that environment wearing those clothes with that cast and you shining so bright in that performance? Pig Foot Mary.

[Loretta Devine]

That was an exciting experience, too. Hoodlums was great, I think, because most of my scenes were with Shy. And then there was the death scene. And it was just. Each one of these films is so different. If you go from one thing to another, it's almost like jumping from one reality to another reality and making up all these characters from dress all the way to the manner speaking and everything. And what was the experience that was so weird. The little guy kept hitting me in the head in that death scene. And that upset one of the lead actors.

[Jennifer Lewis]

But everybody had their own way of.

[Loretta Devine]

Making real whatever it is that was happening. See, if I knew which movies you were gonna ask me about, I could.

[Jennifer Lewis]

Get these stories totally together to tell you. Because it was always stuff that goes.

[Loretta Devine]

On while you're doing these movies. Either while you're doing the stage shows, you know, or the multi camera movie, TV things.

[Interviewer]

You mean life is happening?

[Loretta Devine]

Yeah, the life things that are happening. There's always. There's the movie happening, but there's also all these life things that go on for months while you're doing it. And then the people just go away. I know that sounds strange because then you move on to another. You move on to the next job, and that's a whole nother experience. And then those people go away and.

[Jennifer Lewis]

Then you move on to the next job.

[Interviewer]

How is that for you? Are you able to. Because yes, you're a part of a family for a few months or for a month or a few weeks. And you have to be so embedded in it. And you're obviously in a certain wardrobe and you're playing a certain character. Is there a compartmental that has to happen for you to be able to let your life stuff push it back a bit so you can, as you.

[Loretta Devine]

Get older, you have to do more. Like, I had to come up with a way of memorizing all these lines because everybody wants you to do their script. And the way they write it has a lot to do with what the character is opposed to. And you have to shut down the way you talk or the way you would say it.

[Jennifer Lewis]

It.

[Loretta Devine]

And so I came up with a method of making that happen. And then a new movie I did recently about an auction in Cleveland, they wrote long paragraphs that you were supposed to just do off the top of your head. And that was like a very hard experience. And I always get. Movies are supposed to be acting, not of the action and pictures. Not all is talking. And so the older you get, I think the harder it gets, depending on what the writing is like or what they're trying to say. But things have always been similar in focus.

[Interviewer]

Well, I'd love to talk to you about Jackie's back.

[Jennifer Lewis]

Oh, my God, it's.

[Interviewer]

Look, I love Jennifer Lewis so much. I know you do too. And so I've seen Jackie's back a lot.

[Jennifer Lewis]

Okay, a lot, a lot.

[Interviewer]

And I love seeing you in it as Snooki, her childhood friend.

[Jennifer Lewis]

With that wig on. With that wig.

[Interviewer]

You have to think about that movie written by Mark Brown and Dee La Duke, my former bosses. It feels like that movie's such a labor of love, and it's just. It's also literally every friend that Jennifer has ever made in her child. It's literally like, this is your life, Jennifer. That's what the mockumentary really is. Obviously a play on herself. Was it. How was that for you and how many days did you film those scenes?

[Loretta Devine]

It was just. I think they. It was like a day shoot for me.

[Interviewer]

Oh, okay.

[Loretta Devine]

It was quick. A lot of times. A lot of the things that I've done that are independent films or short films are like day or two, two things. It's not three months like Wayne did.

[Jennifer Lewis]

But, yeah, it was another. You know, you can't help but have fun when Jennifer is running the game. It was like. It was like that.

[Loretta Devine]

It was great.

[Interviewer]

And I. A lot of us worship Robert Townsend for a lot of reasons, but what was it like to be directed by him for the first time, even if it was just for a day?

[Loretta Devine]

He pulls stuff out of you and he go, okay, we're not gonna have any of those tricks that you've learned to make everything work. You have to go, go.

[Jennifer Lewis]

We're going to get in there and get deeper.

[Loretta Devine]

You go, okay, what the fuck is he talking about? But, yeah, but he really tries to lead you into ways of dealing with things that are not like the way you would normally. The way you would normally bring it. So he was. And he worked really hard. I think he's always worked really hard on how he puts everything together and how I did. The other thing that I did for him was with teen boys that were in trouble, and he would work with them, like a class structure kind of thing on the side. So he's a very hard worker.

[Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Loretta Devine]

Yeah.

[Interviewer]

I love his work. There's another TV movie you did that was on HBO that was really moving and really important to me. And I think a lot of us was introducing Dorothy Dandridge.

[Loretta Devine]

Oh, God.

[Interviewer]

It just was such a big moment for me. I wasn't very familiar with Dorothy Dandridge. Her life. Her life. How much, obviously, you knew about this actress and what she had done, but how excited were you to be a part of this production? That Shonda Rhimes actually helped write that script and obviously Halle Berry was leading the charge. What did it mean for you to be Ruby Dandridge?

[Loretta Devine]

Oh, my God. The movie did well. And it was also another period piece in a lot of ways. And Sam Jackson's wife was in it.

[Interviewer]

Yes, Mr. Jackson.

[Loretta Devine]

Yeah, Tanya. And we had never got a chance to work together that much. So that was exciting to be able to be on the screen with her. You never know what's gonna like. I always say it's like throwing pain against the wall. You never know what's gonna stick. But I think that that was one of the movies that people were really excited about when it came about because it was so different from the norm of what you get a chance to see. And that was like, one of Halle's only period pieces, I think. I don't know if she went into another kind of genre where she was playing cops and other things, types of characters. But in that show, she got a chance to be beautiful, and we got a chance to do a period piece that had a particular energy to it, a particular cadence that was different from what you normally get a chance to do. So that's what made it exciting for me.

[Interviewer]

Was it a little difficult in terms of. Do you have to work with a voice coach when you're doing a period piece? Are there things you're thinking about? Were you looking at old Dorothy Dandridge movies to prep for it? And did you sort of feel that responsibility of telling this woman's story, another black actress who obviously had paved the way for actresses that would come after her, that she obviously didn't get a chance to see the Hollywood that you got to experience?

[Loretta Devine]

Well, because I'm from the South, I.

[Jennifer Lewis]

Think we were kind of living.

[Interviewer]

Not much has changed.

[Jennifer Lewis]

Some of that attitude, you know, that keeping your eyes lowered. There were things that sort of, like, come with the neighborhood, you know, and the way you do things, which is a part of why I think you get cast in some of these roles. But of course, you do the.

[Loretta Devine]

You look up as much as you can look up and see. And nowadays, with the Internet and everything.

[Jennifer Lewis]

No matter what the script is, even if a word is a little strange, you can just go to the dictionary section. You can go to whatever section and look at whatever which is a whole.

[Loretta Devine]

Makes doing everything so much easier. You know, it's like a piece of cake now.

[Interviewer]

So it was hard for you to find things before going into that movie, just to kind of get a sense of what that time or world was like. Obviously, that wasn't your era, but you guys were just trying to make sure you got it as accurate as you could.

[Loretta Devine]

Exactly. So that's what you had to do. You had to look up some things and some things you've. Some of the stuff I've seen. Because as you go, you look up and try to figure out, what kind of roles am I gonna Be right for. What am I gonna do?

[Interviewer]

And so, yeah, you know, you have a very signature voice. Your speaking voice, your singing voice. We all love it. We know it. And as we've had other guests in this chair, we've talked about voiceover work and how it's a different thing, it's a different skill. And there's a show that I used to watch all the time, and I was happy I got to revisit it for this show was the PJs.

[Jennifer Lewis]

Oh, God.

[Interviewer]

And you obviously play Eddie Murphy's character's wife. And I'm curious, did you. Were you in the room with Eddie when doing the voice, or were you by yourself?

[Loretta Devine]

When we. When we first started doing it, it was everybody. It would be like everybody would come and do and work on the set, up the mics, and everybody would work. I never worked with Eddie Murphy.

[Jennifer Lewis]

Wow.

[Loretta Devine]

Personally, that's crazy. And I stirred that maybe Eddie Murphy.

[Jennifer Lewis]

Didn'T even was doing it some of the time.

[Loretta Devine]

So I, you know, so. Because Jennifer wasn't. Yeah, everybody. I'm telling the same circles. Everybody.

[Jennifer Lewis]

Don Lewis, all the.

[Loretta Devine]

Everybody came through PJs, but they shut it down. And we were so hurt.

[Interviewer]

It's so interesting because I loved that show as a young person. I think I understood what you all were saying and what you were doing. It never felt like you were making fun of anyone.

[Loretta Devine]

No, no, it wasn't that kind of thing. So. But they were saying that, like the man in the garbage can and all of that.

[Interviewer]

Yes, they're crackheads and yes, they're the projects. And yes, they're.

[Loretta Devine]

We're trying to have better images and wise. Those. That Images that they're being allowed to be put on. And so. But I've done so many voiceover jobs and I mean, Lil Kev, which has just come out.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. And loved.

[Loretta Devine]

Yeah. Young Love, which is. I played Israel's mom. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

I was curious. I wanted to get your perspective on this idea of positive images of black people. Where do you think that comes from with us? And it's interesting because I've been contemplating about even asking certain folks, like, what is your idea of a positive image? And where do we get these ideas of what positive.

[Loretta Devine]

To me. To me, when I'm watching something, I go, where the black girls. I don't care what it is, you know, where are the black people? Is that real? If there's no black people at all, where is this world? You know, Or. And there are places where there are no black people and. But are those the things that they're doing now, I don't know if you're in the United States, you have to have a mixture of people, I think, because there's all kinds of people that are everywhere doing everything. You go to a Dodger game, you're not going to just see any one race of people. So the new TV is the Internet, Instagram, meta AI. I mean, so the images that are, that are, that are on that are people laughing at people and people. People trying to have a good time, people talking about their fears and the difference between the world now and the world. Like, there was no such thing as bipolar when we were young. It was, if you don't go sit.

[Jennifer Lewis]

Over there, that was that.

[Interviewer]

No adhd.

[Jennifer Lewis]

Right. But it's, you know, it's. Everything is so not to be there.

[Loretta Devine]

To me, is negative. When, when, when we're excluded from everything and now they'll put people in. You can tell when somebody's just added for to be polite or whatever, but you're trying to get to do things that are real, that people can't believe in when you're trying to create something. So if you're gonna create, like we create shows with all black characters and everybody goes to work for somebody that's not black off and on, you know. And so when you start looking at the hierarchy of things, seem like everybody would have to be included. So.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. And before we go to the next credit, I'm just curious because as I was watching the PJs today, it's what? It's available on YouTube. Somebody's got all the episodes available. I was laughing, I was feeling so much and just obviously appreciating all the voices, very familiar ones. What did you think of the material when you were reading those scripts those early days? Because I trust your taste. I really trust the decisions that you've been making in your career. And so as I was watching that, I thought to myself, this must, because you have to read it. You have to say yes. It has to be very intentional for you.

[Loretta Devine]

Just like there's a PJ's, there's also a dog MC stuff, which is a totally. So when you have all of that on, then you can pick and choose what you want to be entertained by. The funniest thing I've seen lately is a little girl on Instagram that.

[Jennifer Lewis]

Was about 2 inches high telling her teacher, look, Linda. And she said, my name ain't Linda. Well, look, Linda, I would take a day off if I was you. Well, that was the fun. I mean, I laughed for two days. I said, that little girl, she need a movie contract. Because she's like, but babies are all.

[Loretta Devine]

The way there now. At that age where, when we were coming up, you speak when you're spoken to.

[Jennifer Lewis]

Be quiet.

[Loretta Devine]

Adults are the ones that are important. You have a place until you become old enough to do whatever. But it's gonna. It's a new world, girl.

[Jennifer Lewis]

I can't tell you what's gonna be happening, but it's on. It's gonna be popping.

[Interviewer]

You know what's interesting? At the beginning of this conversation, we talked about Dreamgirls. And that legend, of course, you know, kind of resurrected again when it came time for there to be a movie musical. Oh, God. I know the movie was a big deal. It was a big deal. And I remember going to an early screening of it. Cause I was that excited. And I was excited because I was one of those people that didn't get to come see you all. And I think there was a lot of us that just wanted our Dreamgirls experience, and we wanted to feel inspired. And I was. I was. I listened to that soundtrack all the time. I cried to it. I saw the movie a lot. And that legend swept me up at a time when I was first living out here. And it kind of came at a time in my life when I needed it most. And so what was special about that musical and most musicals that are based on movie musicals that are based on a musical, they want to grab someone for that, was there for that, for the musical. And you. It's funny because you refer to yourself as the invisible dream. You were the only dream girl featured in the film.

[Loretta Devine]

The two divas wanted to play their part.

[Jennifer Lewis]

They could play their part. They were not gonna let. Then I said, well, maybe we could be their mothers, the girls mothers. And they think because they had mothers in.

[Loretta Devine]

But those. Those parts were too small for the. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

I know one of the actresses that played Dina's mom, and it was. I know it's a quick scene. I was happy.

[Jennifer Lewis]

So, you know, you cannot, can you? That was not gonna work for Jen or Cheryl.

[Loretta Devine]

So I think they wanted to play their parts.

[Interviewer]

What was it inside of you that said?

[Loretta Devine]

I talked to a couple of people about if I was offered anything in the movie, should I do it? Because I didn't know if it was a good thing to even be in the movie if I wasn't playing the part I created. And one of the old timers told me, girl, you better do that, because if you get off at the Part, then God sent it. It's. I mean, you can't be turning down gifts. And I work a lot because I. It has to be really. I really have to not understand it a lot of times to not want to do it, because it's making people's dreams come true. I mean, people that create stuff, these scripts, they worked. And I mean, once you create it, then you gotta sell it to somebody. Then you gotta make people believe that it's, you know. So I had worked with Danny Glover before, and he was in this particular scene, and they let me sing a little piece of something that I liked, and so I thought that was nice. So it was like a representation of. Of the. Of the show in a way. And I think. And I did feel like it was because of me feeling invisible the whole time. For me to even be in the movie was the way of God saying, so, you know, chill out about it. It is what it is, and let's keep going forward. And so it was. It was hard to see in a lot of ways, because my character, to me, was always the goofy one. In Dreamgirls. L' Rail was kind of goofy. Her arms were longer than they should have been. If you watch in every correct position, she's a little off.

[Jennifer Lewis]

Just a little. A little off a little too. Whatever.

[Loretta Devine]

And the show always had the excitement of them being young and excited about being discovered. That was like. Like the thing that was underneath it. So now this is, what, 20 years later or so, and Cheryl has had her kids, and we're all so much older, and we can't be that little girl anymore to me, you know? And so they had me playing this.

[Jennifer Lewis]

Old, bitter bitch in a nightclub singing. I'm changing singing to Danny Glover. So it was like, okay. God, if this is what you sent.

[Interviewer]

Well, it was a joy to see you.

[Jennifer Lewis]

Oh, thank you. It was a joy to be a.

[Loretta Devine]

Part of it in a way, you know, and it changed so many people's lives, and that's what. And that's what movies do for some people.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. Back to tv, a show that I just recently got a chance to do a couple episodes of. Of Grey's Anatomy. And you were there in the beginning, you know, the beginning. And I was grateful to be there in the most, like, it's, like, 21st season now at this point. Debbie Allen called me to come on, and I was grateful to be on that set. And it's really an iconic set. It's to be there to look around a show that we've been watching on tv. For so long. I got a chance to watch your first episode in the show, the second where we realize that Dr. Weber has a wife and you are friends with McDreamy's ex wife, and you just sort of come in and it just makes sense, and it feels right. How exciting was that for you to go be a part of a juggernaut in season two? It was already a juggernaut by that point. What was that like for you to walk onto that set then?

[Jennifer Lewis]

Scary, because you never know.

[Loretta Devine]

But Jim Picker would always say, baby, it's like butter over here. It's like butter. You know, whenever he do his. Whenever we would do our scenes, it's smooth like butter. And he was always very given in the scenes that. That you had to play with him. And I was close friends with his wife when. When we were in Dreamgirls. And so we all knew each other from way back then. And so it was. It was just. It felt real natural. It felt good to be a part of it. And I was. I worked in it for seven years. I didn't realize it had been that long. Whenever. And I was always just reoccurring, though. Whenever they could fit everything in with everything else, I would get a chance to go on. And I was always. And they always made you feel important and made you feel at home. And then you'd see the actual show, and it would be like, wow, that's good. You know, so that part of it was really good, especially in the beginning when you just didn't know what was gonna happen next and all of that.

[Interviewer]

And it earned you an Emmy.

[Jennifer Lewis]

Yes.

[Loretta Devine]

My one and only. I have this story. Alfre Woodard was sitting in front of me, and I was just. And I'd worked with Alfrey in a show, and I told her, I'm so.

[Jennifer Lewis]

Nervous because I'm up for an Emmy.

[Loretta Devine]

She said, oh, I've been nominated eight times, or I have eight Emmys. It was one of the two. But, yeah. And she calmed me down, and I just couldn't believe that I won. And then I got nominated the second year, and so. So it was just. It was. And again, timing is everything, because it happened at a time where I think I got into a magazine in a green dress, where I really. That I. That I blew up into a huge picture because it was so nice, and I have it on my piano at home. And so it's wonderful.

[Interviewer]

Is it validating to be recognized by an academy, a television academy, when there are so many obviously amazing performances in television every year? And Especially on the big shows. But for you to be singled out and for that performance and that character, which I think is such a great character, she feels so real, she feels so grounded. You believe everything that's coming out of your mouth. What was it like to be honored in that way?

[Loretta Devine]

I thought when I got that image, I said, oh, God, I'll never have to worry about working again.

[Jennifer Lewis]

They fired me like a week later from.

[Loretta Devine]

I mean, my character died like right after that. And I was like, oh, my God, what did I. You know, when you. So it's just the way show business is. You can't. I don't think one thing can guarantee another another thing. And I always. It had to do with the childish way you think about show business. And Michael Benny used to say to us, it's show business, not show charity. And so in your mind, you expect certain things to bring certain things, which is. From what you've seen with people at the Oscars, you can see when they win, you go, oh, God, now it looks the way everybody. But I have what, 11 NAACP awards statues winning from doing so many different things. But nothing is like the first time. Oh, my God. I can remember the dress, I can remember the art. I can remember that feeling. And it's the same with the Emmy of going to the governor's ball or wherever that the big thingy that happened. And then they're back there eating the hamburgers and stuff and you go, what the.

[Jennifer Lewis]

Anyway, it's show business.

[Loretta Devine]

It's like, how dare you believe that anything is true after you been in show business for years? Because it's all made up. It's all make believe. All of it.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. And it's so interesting. Cause you had so many big, I'll call them landmark moments in your career. Classic movies, amazing television shows. And I was thinking about this with way until exhale, but I can even think about it with the Emmy. There's something that happens when there's this big deal thing in your career. Either everything happens after that, or it feels like nothing happens after that. And I'm curious for you. You can talk about either waiting to excel or the Emmy moment. Did it feel like, huh, oh, things have changed in my career, or did it feel like it was sort of more of the same?

[Loretta Devine]

No, things changed in. But in a lot of ways they did. Because you don't. I never know what's coming next. You just this. I don't know how anyone can say they know it unless. And they're producing it themselves. And then you do have people that now create their own reality in the business. But now I think I'm moving into another area of show business, which is age. The age thing. It becomes about, oh, you should be finished by now, or you should go sit down somewhere by now because of your age. And so now, like there was only one Golden Girl. Now you hear all this about, oh, this we should do a black Golden Girl. This endless that talk has been going on for the last. I don't know how long. And you don't know who's going to actually try to do that, because I'm sure some. Someone will. But so you. It's just like hurdles that you go what. You know, that. That you go over and. And hope for the best. I guess that's what I should say. And it's all good. You know, it. It feels that I've had a career that is. And it's still going. I mean, I have so many shows that are in the can and so many things that are. And because I've done so many independent films and short. And films and things, you have people that create stuff and think of you because they know you'll do. I just did a student film yesterday for somebody and then another little girl has asked me could I do her student film to help her, blah, blah, blah. So I always, when I can, I say yes, I. To things like that. And you just keep sort of wishing for the best. I don't know any other way to put it. You hope that you're able to keep being able to remember long scripts or to do to tap in a show if they ask you. You know, I try to say yes a lot, but. But lately I like to knit and.

[Jennifer Lewis]

Sit around and watch the games with my husband.

[Loretta Devine]

So that feels good too. So, you know, so you just have to decide what do you want to do the next week?

[Interviewer]

You know, I receive that. I hear that. Last but certainly not least, the credits we'll talk about is the Carmichaels show. I was watching that show from the first season this morning and cracking up. I reached out to Jerrod just to tell him that I was gonna talk to you and how happy I was watching the show again. I remember watching it when it first came out, but that pilot and I also got into some of the rest of the first season. You are playing Cynthia Carmichael, who we now got to see in his reality show, his docu series, the Real Life Cynthia and which gave me a very interesting context, I think. Cause initially I watched the show just. He's like, yeah, I Wanna do like an all in the Family, but it's black and it's modern. And I think he was very successful, actually, at that. He would always say, we're in a living room, there's different generations, and we have different opinions, and everybody's voice is gonna be heard. I remember him saying that. And then, you know, he did his sort of reality show, kind of giving you a peek inside of his actual family in the real life. Cynthia, you are giving us so much in that character who we know is based on a real person. His actual mother. Loosely based, maybe, but she's very religious and she's very set in her ways. She's very old school, and she loves her children very much.

[Loretta Devine]

Right.

[Interviewer]

And there's a particular episode which is about the protest. Protesting.

[Loretta Devine]

Oh, God, yes, I remember that one.

[Interviewer]

And you put on your protest clothes and you go out and you're talking about how to do it. You shouldn't do it in wedges. At one point, you break into songs. I was just curious, did you want to meet the real Cynthia? Did you meet her before you got going? And was there a lot of pressure on you, or were you nervous about playing someone that was based on someone real?

[Loretta Devine]

Yes, I met her, but not before I did it.

[Jennifer Lewis]

And I never associated it in my head with her necessarily, even though I shared her name. I know it was her name, but her son wrote it, and it's his impression of her that he was writing.

[Loretta Devine]

And not really like her, her. But when I met her, she was very pleased with what I was doing with her.

[Jennifer Lewis]

So if she was pleased, I was pleased because.

[Loretta Devine]

And it one episode where I had to say that the N word, big.

[Jennifer Lewis]

Restaurant, the whole thing, and then she.

[Loretta Devine]

Cynthia, had to actually say the N word. It became this big thing in my head because she's so religious and so proper in so many ways. But it was so hard to lose that show because I just thought it was such a good show and so smart. And it was over some political scene, some political show that they were saying no, they didn't want to air. And Gerard was saying, well, then you don't want the show. So. And it was a time when we were all in New Orleans because it was Essence Fest when we found out that the show was no longer gonna go. And it was a big time for Tiffany Haddish, because that was when her big movie Girls trip was coming out, and we were all there rooting for her and everybody. And that became the core thing under her. And then Lil Rel had just got get out. So everybody was moving anyway. Their careers were moving, moving. And then Gerard got another show afterwards. But it didn't do what, I don't think what the Carmichaels show did. So it was hard to lose that show because I really loved doing that character. And I loved working with David Alan Grier because I had worked with him at Dreamgirls. He had been One of the 12 men that came through that show. So many came through. A lot of them are gone now, though. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

So you're surrounded by comedy heavyweights in almost. I mean, every scene. You're with David Alan Grier, Lil Rel, obviously, Jarrod, Tiffany Haddish. And I hadn't thought about it until I was watching it again. And you not only hold your own, but you just feel just naturally funny. You're not pushing it. You're not trying to, you know, outfunny them. What was it like on that set? And what was the chemistry? How did you guys find that chemistry? To be a family, to feel like a family.

[Loretta Devine]

It's so weird because there was another young girl that was supposed to be playing the part that Tiffany played. And Tiffany, I think, was. Read the part, did the part just because that girl was in New York doing something that she had to finish. And then she would come, but Tiffany was like Little Debbie Allen. It was like, if you ain't here.

[Jennifer Lewis]

Tiffany came to the first. To the. I think Tiffany came in with fishnet stockings and a miniskirt and whatever. She. She was ready, literally. So when the little girl from New York. I don't even know this baby's name, the little girl from New York got there with the wool hat on her head and she had on some pants like you got on.

[Loretta Devine]

She just missed the mug. They said it had to be Tiffany. And so Tiffany added a whole different level of common and everything, because her timing is so. It's so real place. You just feel like it's just happening. And so everything just flowed. It felt funny. It was fun. And we just. And then Amber west was so straight. She was. Everybody was perfectly placed. I can remember the auditions because I went in a couple of times, and I think they cast me before David Alan Grier. So David Alan Grier was coming right after I did. It could have been the reverse, but I think so. And so I was just so scared I wasn't going to get it. And then finally I got it, and.

[Jennifer Lewis]

I was like, whoa.

[Loretta Devine]

So it was on again. So you always. And I did Family reunion for Netflix for five years. So after you've ever been in one of those family shows. It's such a good. I call it Good Living. Good living.

[Jennifer Lewis]

Like Bernie Mac used that. Good living. Good living, yeah. Because.

[Loretta Devine]

Because you know where you're gonna work, you know, a script is coming and you know you gotta learn your line. So it's just like a person with a regular job, but it changes. But so my life has been like that for almost, what, 50 years. It's been like, just hit it and quit it. Hit it and quit it. Hit it and quit it. And so it is what it is.

[Interviewer]

Does that affect the decision? How many times you say yes? You say. You say yes a lot. But are you taking that into consideration when making those decisions?

[Loretta Devine]

Well, when the work is happening in LA and you're in la, you say yes when the work is now, even when you're doing something for a friend, they go, well, we're going to have to leave LA because everything is feasibly cheaper. And, you know, although it's two days, we'll put you up and whatever, but then that's cheaper than trying to stay here in la. It's cheaper for the fly me. It's just weird, you know, so you go, which is another reason to go. Maybe I'll just, you know, you have to really think about the decisions you make because you can get an offer to work three weeks in New York, but, you know, you have to be away from your family for three weeks. So all that's included in your decision making. Yeah.

[Interviewer]

Last question. What's your definition of a really great actress?

[Loretta Devine]

It's a good actress is one who gets a chance to act and work. And I've been blessed in that way, I think, to get a chance to actually do it. I think I'm a good actress and some things I've seen myself in, I can't even believe it's me. Wow. I did that, you know, And I think that's why I work really hard to get things down as right as I can before I even get there. I have a strong opinion of what I'm trying to create and how I built a it in my head to be important when I'm doing it. And sometimes I. Most times I'm pleased with what I see after I've done it.

[Interviewer]

I think I agree with you and so would a lot of people that you're one of our really great actresses.

[Jennifer Lewis]

Really?

[Interviewer]

Yes.

[Jennifer Lewis]

I would never think you would think that.

[Interviewer]

Why is that?

[Jennifer Lewis]

I don't know. Because you're the new hot chick on the block.

[Interviewer]

I wouldn't be sitting here were it not for all these credits and more. I only talked about just a few of your amazing credits, and these are some of my favorites, really. And some things I'm grateful I got to see when it was happening, as it was unfolding, because you really are one of our dreams come true.

[Loretta Devine]

Thank you. Because I feel.

[Jennifer Lewis]

I feel real regular.

[Interviewer]

You know, there's nothing that. Look, it's interesting because I don't think there's anything regular about you.

[Jennifer Lewis]

Really.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. I think you clearly, there's something about you that is special, that's unique, that's different, that's unlike anyone else. And I believe everybody is special. I love Jennifer Lewis as she realized she was a star when she knew everybody else was one. And I think I feel that way, though.

[Loretta Devine]

I've always felt that way. But then I've been doing everything forever. Seems like even before I started being an actress, I taught for a long time when I was artistic director of the Black Arts center. And then when I. I work with kids a lot, and there's no way to miss that. Everybody is uniquely whoever they are. But I still think being able to work is, though, sort of like a blessing that's sent from somewhere. You go with so many people wanting to do this and so many people being good to continually get to do it is something that I've been blessed to do, do, and I can't say why. Opposed to anyone else. But I do work a lot. But a lot of my stuff, nobody's even, you know. Yeah.

[Jennifer Lewis]

I don't think anybody has even seen.

[Loretta Devine]

It or know about it. And then I'm shocked when people come up and say, this is the thing that I love, or this is the thing. Because people will tell you what they've seen. I didn't, you know, and my people handle it different from some of the other people. Like, people that have seen me on Grey's Anatomy, they act one way. And people that have seen me on.

[Jennifer Lewis]

P. Valley, they whisper.

[Interviewer]

They say, hey, I believe everybody can shop Waiting to exhale. That's pretty. You know, that's pretty fair. I think we all are grateful that you've been working as much as you have and that you continue to say yes. Because we just always love seeing you.

[Jennifer Lewis]

Oh, thank you.

[Interviewer]

Thank you. And we appreciate you. And I'm grateful to you for taking this time.

[Loretta Devine]

Marla Gibbs said, I love to be seen and not viewed.

[Jennifer Lewis]

That's Marla's line. Marla Gibbs. Another one. Another one of my heroes.

[Interviewer]

Come on. Iconic actress227. Her Hollywood star, her Stonehouse Hollywood Walk of Fame, well earned. And I know you'll be at Cheryl's ceremony. I look forward to, you know, continuing to celebrate you.

[Jennifer Lewis]

Thank you.

[Interviewer]

As you continue to shine your light on all of us. And thank you for letting us shine a light on you today.

[Loretta Devine]

Thank you. I appreciate you having me here.