Building a Legacy with Mara Brock Akil

Summary

Legacy Talk with Lena Waithe: Building a Legacy with Mara Brock Akil
Release Date: November 26, 2024

In the episode titled "Building a Legacy with Mara Brock Akil" of Legacy Talk with Lena Waithe, host Lena Waithe engages in an insightful and heartfelt conversation with Mara Brock Akil, a trailblazing writer, producer, and creator known for her influential work in television. The episode delves into Mara's creative journey, mentorship experiences, and the profound impact she has had on shaping narratives for Black women in entertainment.

---

1. Introduction to Mara Brock Akil's Journey

The episode kicks off with Mara Brock Akil sharing her early experiences in the television industry, highlighting her initial foray into the writer's room of the iconic show South Central.

Notable Quote:
"I was born in Compton. My mother raised three kids on her own. I remember telling him, I'm closer to this story than you are."
(02:07)

Mara emphasizes the significance of bringing authentic experiences to her writing, rooted in her upbringing in Los Angeles.

---

2. Breaking into the Writer's Room

Mara recounts her first major opportunity when Ralph Farquhar offered her a position in the South Central writer's room, a pivotal moment that shaped her career.

Notable Quote:
"I was blindsided. I had to ask him, are you gonna offer me a job? And he was like, yes. Spar."
(00:55)

This encounter underscores the challenges and surprises that often accompany breakthroughs in the entertainment industry.

---

3. Navigating Collaboration and Creative Tensions

The conversation delves into Mara's experiences within the collaborative environment of a writer's room, where creative differences are both inevitable and vital for storytelling.

Notable Quote:
"You put something out there, and now there's feeding. Now there is momentum, and you get through it."
(04:00)

Mara discusses how feedback and constructive criticism are essential in refining narratives, even when it involves navigating personal relationships within the creative team.

---

4. Mentorship and Support Systems

Mara highlights the importance of mentorship in her career, particularly drawing parallels to her own experiences being mentored by industry veterans like Ralph Farquhar and Debbie Allen.

Notable Quote:
"He wanted to make sure our neighborhoods are beautified. I said, do better."
(04:48)

The episode emphasizes how mentorship has been instrumental in Mara's professional growth and her commitment to fostering similar opportunities for others.

---

5. Transitioning to New Projects: The Jamie Foxx Show

Mara shares insights into her decision to join The Jamie Foxx Show, detailing the dynamics of being the only woman in the room and the creative freedoms it afforded her.

Notable Quote:
"Those brothers were so happy for me."
(08:37)

This move represents Mara's strategic decisions in expanding her repertoire and influencing show narratives from diverse perspectives.

---

6. Crafting "Girlfriends" and Addressing Social Issues

A significant portion of the conversation focuses on Mara's work on Girlfriends and its spinoff The Game. She discusses her vision of creating sophisticated and elevated storytelling that mirrors real-life challenges faced by Black women, particularly around class and race.

Notable Quote:
"I wanted to talk about how it would look inside this friend group and how that echoes back into our larger community."
(14:46)

Mara underscores the show's commitment to portraying authentic relationships and societal issues, making it resonate deeply with audiences.

---

7. Directing and Expanding Creative Horizons

Mara shares her experiences transitioning into directing, particularly her first time sitting in the director's chair on The Game. She reflects on the empowerment and validation that came from taking on leadership roles behind the camera.

Notable Quote:
"Can you do this and lead? But to go back and recently direct again, I want more of that expression."
(30:40)

This segment showcases Mara's continuous evolution as a multifaceted creator, embracing new challenges to amplify her storytelling.

---

8. Defining a Classic TV Show

Towards the end of the episode, Mara articulates her definition of a classic TV show, emphasizing the importance of connection, honesty, and evergreen storytelling.

Notable Quote:
"Being able to strike a level of connection and honesty in an exact time. It will remain evergreen in its storytelling."
(31:13)

Her perspective encapsulates the enduring qualities that make television narratives timeless and impactful.

---

9. Legacy and Mentorship

In the closing segments, Mara and Lena reflect on the importance of legacy and the ripple effect of mentorship. Mara discusses initiatives like Writer's Colony and the Hillman Grant Mentorship Lab, highlighting the significance of nurturing future generations of storytellers.

Notable Quote:
"Because I have a community. Gina called me. I am in desperate need of... You have opened up doors for other people. So our tree just keeps growing."
(34:10)

This final part underscores Mara's dedication to building a supportive and inclusive community within the entertainment industry.

---

Conclusion

"Building a Legacy with Mara Brock Akil" offers a comprehensive look into Mara's profound contributions to television, her unwavering commitment to authentic storytelling, and her role as a mentor shaping the future of Black women in entertainment. Through candid discussions and personal anecdotes, Lena Waithe and Mara Brock Akil illuminate the pathways of resilience, creativity, and legacy-building that define their careers.

Key Takeaways:

• Authenticity and personal experiences are crucial in shaping impactful narratives.
• Mentorship plays a vital role in professional development and legacy building.
• Addressing societal issues like class and race within storytelling can resonate deeply with audiences.
• Embracing leadership roles, such as directing, empowers creators to expand their influence.
• Building a supportive community fosters continuous growth and the perpetuation of positive change in the industry.

---

This episode serves as an inspiring testament to the power of storytelling, mentorship, and the enduring legacy that creators like Mara Brock Akil leave behind.

Transcript

[Mara Brock Akil]

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[Lena Waithe]

Lemonade. I was pitching my butt off.

[Brandis]

Legacy. Oh, Legacy.

[Lena Waithe]

Oh. So you can imagine I'm just blindsided. And I had to ask him. I said, ralph, I'm sorry, are you gonna offer me a job? And he was like, yes. Spar.

[Brandis]

I was like, beautiful spaces.

[Lena Waithe]

Yes.

[Brandis]

Beautiful people.

[Lena Waithe]

Yes.

[Brandis]

Dealing with some ugly shit.

[Lena Waithe]

Okay. Come on, Brandis. That's what I want for us as people. I want our neighborhoods to be beautified. I want our homes to be organized. She said to me that I was her angel.

[Brandis]

What?

[Lena Waithe]

I mean, I'm done.

[Brandis]

Legacy. Oh, Legacy. I'm so happy to be sitting down with you today to talk about your career, your process.

[Lena Waithe]

Thank you for caring.

[Brandis]

Yeah. Thank you for caring. I care so much.

[Lena Waithe]

I know.

[Brandis]

I care so much.

[Lena Waithe]

I know. I really always appreciate how you shout me out, how you reach out personally and our own relationship for each other. It's part of the fun and it's also part of the need. So I just thank you.

[Brandis]

Well, look, I'm not here without you. Which is a real sentence. It's a real statement. And with you, I wanna start at the beginning. Your first job, which is a show called South Central.

[Lena Waithe]

Yes. Which do you consider that my first job?

[Brandis]

I consider it the show that you were in a writer's room in. Right. Was that the first writer's room?

[Lena Waithe]

Yes.

[Brandis]

And that, to me, is such a big deal when you're a television writer on the journey. What was that like for you, being a young writer in that writer's room?

[Lena Waithe]

I was talking to Glendon Palmer. I remember this very vividly. And he said, hey, Mara, there's a screening. You know, that was a big thing to get in someone's screening to see something and see what. And it's a screening of South Central created by Ralph Farquhar and Michael Weihorn. After I Saw South Central. I remember turning to Glendon just like this. I was like, that's the show I want. That's who I am. To somewhat. There was a naivete about how hard it was to get into the writers room, but then there's also a reality. I did know it was hard to get there. So when I got there, I just wanted to pour out. It's all about, how do you serve this story? And I understood that intrinsically in the interview. And so what I remember telling him is, like, I was raised. I was born in Compton. You know, I'm from la. My mother. You know, my mother raised three kids on her own. I remember telling her, I'm closer to this story than you are.

[Brandis]

Wow. And what did Ralph say?

[Lena Waithe]

I remember Ralph got some expressions.

[Brandis]

Oh, yeah.

[Lena Waithe]

I remember my big moment in the writers room where I got to really show who I was. Well, I have a pitch, and so I read it aloud. And I remember it was the longest silence. And there's that moment again where you're like, did I. Did I win them over? Did I not? And then I remember Ralph made a joke to everybody else, like, while y'all here debating the young one over here, of course, doing it. And it was sort of like it brought relief to the room. Everybody laughed. And then I remember everybody started debating it. And that was rough.

[Brandis]

Ooh.

[Lena Waithe]

You know, but it. But that's the writer's room.

[Brandis]

Yeah.

[Lena Waithe]

You put something out there, and now there's a feeding. Now there is momentum, and you get through it. Your feelings get a little bit. I remember Gina's in the room. I'm like, I thought we were friends. Why are you. The writers room is sculpting.

[Brandis]

Yeah.

[Lena Waithe]

And so we sculpted it. And at the end of the day, I would say I remember feeling like 40 to 50% of what I wrote, maybe 6. I just. It made it.

[Brandis]

Wow.

[Lena Waithe]

I'm so proud of, like, most of those words were mine.

[Brandis]

It clearly gave you confidence. You were held up in a way that Ralph does.

[Lena Waithe]

Completely supported.

[Brandis]

Cause he's such a father figure.

[Lena Waithe]

Oh.

[Brandis]

That, you know, he doesn't even know I need.

[Lena Waithe]

And still so in it.

[Brandis]

In it, he's not.

[Lena Waithe]

He's not checked out one iota.

[Brandis]

He pushing me.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah. Yes. Yes. I said do better.

[Brandis]

Okay. All right.

[Lena Waithe]

Yes.

[Brandis]

Okay. Ralph, we can't not talk about Moesha.

[Lena Waithe]

No, of course.

[Brandis]

And so I'm super happy to be able to talk about it again with you. How did you find your way into that writer's room?

[Lena Waithe]

First thing I want to say is I was able to stay in la. I think that's very important to talk about because the opportunities were here. My point being, I had to do some things. I had to go through some things to stay in LA and wait for the opportunity. And the other thing that I did is I lived in Insomnia Cafe.

[Brandis]

Oh.

[Lena Waithe]

And if you watch Love Is, I literally got the blessing to shoot in there to sort of. Sort of set the tone for my, you know, my inspired by story about me and Celine meeting there, but really my love affair with Insomnia. When I finished my script that I was writing at Insomnia, and I called Ralph and I said, as a mentor, would you please read my script and give me notes? And I got a meeting right away. And I thought, oh, my God, he really does care about me as a mentee.

[Brandis]

He does.

[Lena Waithe]

When I walked in the door, I started to realize we're not talking about my script. And he start talking about Moesha. And I was sitting there and I was like, I think he's offering me a job. But I came in there asking for, you know, guidance and advice. And so you can imagine, I'm just blindsided. And I had to ask him. I said, ralph, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I remember I said, time out, time out, time out. Are you offering me a job? And he was like, yes, Fart. I was like, oh, my God. I just like, thank God so completely. It felt like Christmas to taste South Central as a writer's trainee.

[Brandis]

Yeah.

[Lena Waithe]

And really be a part of that. And to lose it and kind of meander between assistant jobs, PA jobs, unemployment, doubt, fear, all those sorts of things never coming back out of this door.

[Brandis]

No. I mean, talk about.

[Lena Waithe]

So what else can I do to help Moesha? Mow to the E to the. I was telling all my life. I literally brought my diary one time to the writer's room. I was like. And then gyms Gems. The premiere of the second season is my story. And I remember pitching that. But I knew Ralph, Sarah, and Vida needed that level of support. I was pitching my butt off. And I realized I got the premier episode of a second of our second season. Do you know how major that is?

[Brandis]

That's huge. Were you more confident? Did you feel a little bit more seasoned now that you have been staffed before? It is Ralph again.

[Lena Waithe]

I felt more confident, but I felt more nervous. And I knew early on I was great at story, and I didn't feel as though I was as funny as the people in the room. But I also. And with all due respect, I would notice that I was like, they're funny, but none of this is landing in the script. And you realize there's a chemistry in the writer's room where you can just keep people laughing. But I was also like, but how much is landing in the script? So sometimes I was good at pitching joke areas. And so it would be like a. It wouldn't be as funny, but it was the right. Because I was good at story. But it's like a toss up, and then the comedians would eat it up, and then you can get something in the script. And I realized that. So I just kept being so I guess I was a point guard in that way. So I would toss up a lot. But I also have an ego, and I want my thing. And I had to figure out, how do I get my jokes in this script? And I leaned on something that used to save me when I used to get in punishment with my mom. I like to mimic. So I started pitching in Kim's voice because I knew how to do her voice. I was like, chicken, I get your chicken here.

[Brandis]

But it's interesting you say that. If we could talk about the next thing for you is the Jamie Foxx show.

[Lena Waithe]

Well, again, here comes this business. I could have stayed on fifth season of Moesha. Or do I leave and go see.

[Brandis]

Leave the nest, too?

[Lena Waithe]

Leave the nest? Yeah. Do I go and see what's happening over there? And long story short, I chose Jamie Foxx.

[Brandis]

Hmm.

[Lena Waithe]

And what was so fun about that room? First of all, I was the only woman in the room at one point. That room was so much fun with all the guys. How do I come in and be of service? But I also had other people. There were some new people, too. So it was a real mix. And we became a unit. Fancy and Jamie were becoming a couple. So I got to talk about relationships. Not to the degree that I thought I would or would have, but it was fun to be a part of a reimagining. That's what I'm also developing at that time. And as Bentley Evans used to say, mari, you just won the lotto. You won the lotto to get a TV show on the air. You just won the lotto. But my point is, those brothers were so happy for me.

[Mara Brock Akil]

So managing money isn't easy.

[Brandis]

Right.

[Mara Brock Akil]

I remember the first time I thought about investing, I had no idea where to start. Maybe you've had the same experience, feeling like investing is only for people with.

[Brandis]

A lot of cash or expertise.

[Mara Brock Akil]

But here's the thing. It's not Today's episode is sponsored by Acorns. Acorns makes it easy to start automatically saving and investing for your future. You don't need a lot of money or expertise to invest with Acorns. In fact, you can get started with just your spare change. Acorns recommends an expert built portfolio that fits you and your money goals, then automatically invest your money for you. Learning how to be smart with your finances is critical and that's why I love acorn's mission of taking the guesswork out of investing. You can invest just by rounding up everyday purchases like when you grab coffee or order takeout, giving those small investments a chance to grow. Head to acorns.com legacytalk or download the Acorns app to start saving and investing for your future today. Paid non client endorsement compensation provides incentive to positively promote Acorns. Investing involves risk Acorns Advisors LLC, an SEC registered investment advisor. View important [e-mail] LegacyTalk Happy Mammoth is an innovative wellness brand dedicated to supporting women's health through thoughtfully designed supplements. One of their most popular products, Hormone Harmony has gained a significant following online. It's a carefully formulated blend that uses science backed adaptogens, natural compounds that help the body adjust to physical and emotional stressors which can be especially beneficial during periods of hormonal change like menopause and perimenopause. Hormone Harmony is just one example of how all their products are crafted with women's needs in mind. Each supplement uses premium, carefully sourced ingredients that focus on specific wellness areas. They don't take a one size fits all approach, but instead design products that address real everyday challenges women face. Their Gut Repair supplement has received thousands of five star reviews and is designed to help regulate and improve the digestive system which is a foundation for so much else in our health. Happy Mammoth is committed to understanding women's needs and develops supplements that fit those unique health priorities. And we have an exciting code for our listeners. Visit www.happymammoth.com and use code LEGACYTALK for 15% off your first order sitewide. That's www.happymammother.com for 15% off.

[Brandis]

Can we talk about that amazing lotto?

[Lena Waithe]

Wanna talk about the lotto?

[Brandis]

We've taken these steps to get to such an amazing place. When someone says your name, the next thing that comes is Girlfriends is Girlfriends. It's Girlfriends.

[Lena Waithe]

It's girlfriends.

[Brandis]

I'm 40 now.

[Lena Waithe]

Looking all 20.

[Brandis]

Thank you.

[Lena Waithe]

You're welcome.

[Brandis]

Watching Joan turning 29 saying she's gonna be 26, talking about where she wants to be in life. You do something. Because in revisiting it, I had an epiphany in that. What you're not afraid to do is hold up a mirror to our own toxicity.

[Lena Waithe]

Oh, I. No, I'm not.

[Brandis]

And what I realized in looking at Joan is that Joan has an unhealthy. She says she doesn't have good taste in men. She has a great taste in furniture. Great taste in, like, colleges, the job, the clothes. But she's like, I'm not good at picking the right guy. So I just wanted to say what I love about it is really how futuristic you were being.

[Lena Waithe]

Thank you.

[Brandis]

But before we get to that, I want to know what was your vision initially for girlfriend?

[Lena Waithe]

Sophisticated and elevated as Sex and the City. And the opportunity was for me, again, truth through fiction. I wanted to document what was happening to us at the same time. What does our language sound like? What do our details look like? What does vulnerability look like for us? But the point I'm making is just that I wanted to document and explore this idea about having it all. And on top of that was, how do you have it all? You need community. And in this case, we're gonna talk about the chosen family. Because most people who come out to Los Angeles, Louisiana. Is a dreamer city.

[Brandis]

Yes. I also love, though, you're dealing with class really well, too, on the show. I mean, in terms of Maya being a teen. Teenage mom, which you find out, you know, in the pilot. Tony lives in this, like, sort of apartment building. She's on her own, and, like, everything is all white. And Lynn, of course, is always sort of like, jumping from, you know, crib to crib, but yet it all sort of flows really beautifully.

[Lena Waithe]

Well, It's. I. Thank you. And craft. That's one of my favorite part is crafting and trying to sort of layer all of these things that are authentically true.

[Brandis]

Yeah.

[Lena Waithe]

And again, Maya's a dreamer. Maya's gonna get her a job at the.

[Brandis]

The law firm. The law firm as an assistant.

[Lena Waithe]

The class, to me, more interesting to talk about than race. These women are black. They. Right, okay. We'll do a story here and there about colorism and all the things. And one of my favorite was when Tony even dated the politician and the whole weave thing. That was fun. But really, what was interesting to me is within us, what issues do we have around class? Because class, even in our country, is really far more the divider than it is about race. Race is the. Is the illusion. Race is the okie doke.

[Brandis]

Right.

[Lena Waithe]

We're so distracted by race. We don't realize how we are being torn apart by class. Correct. So I really wanted to talk about that and how it would look inside this friend group and how that echoes back into our larger community when you get to prove yourself that the first season worked. And they said, oh, I didn't realize you did have all these other stories with the other cast. And it's all working, and it's all good. What I'm so proud about in that show is that at the time, most of our images were in sitcom sets. So that means a lot of our coverage is gonna be tight. You gotta be on the face for the joke. They can't be, you know, a beauty. Beauty shot here. They want it like. They want it stacked so our images are almost like. And so you're not a human being in those boxes. And I want it so much to see how can I see their bodies in space? Black bodies moving through space was a way for you to connect as a human being, as a viewer to that. And so trying to get more of that in the show was always. I was always endeavoring to do that. And I just saved my money and made the right pitches and did it on budget.

[Brandis]

Jumping ahead a little bit when I came to interview to be Regina and Mark and Dee's assistant, and they asked me, what did I like about the previous season? What did I like about it? And I said, I really like how you guys have handled Tony's exit, because what you've done with Kesha Sharp is not tried to replace Tony, but you've infused a new energy into the fourth song. And I said, I remember, like every other audience member tuning in, wondering, what are we gonna do with one of the Beatles gone? And you showed us that the music goes on. It continues. And what I learned before I had my own show.

[Lena Waithe]

Yes. Cast member.

[Brandis]

Is that the show was almost bigger than a character. It is. Which is odd because you created the character.

[Lena Waithe]

Right.

[Brandis]

You birthed the character.

[Lena Waithe]

Right. Right.

[Brandis]

And you think you can't play music without this particular musician, but the truth is, the song is still one we want to hear.

[Lena Waithe]

Yes. You know how I deal with those things, Lena, like, in life is. I don't think I was using the word surrender, but am I gonna lose the show over this? No. She has a journey, and we have a journey, and now we gotta pivot.

[Brandis]

Yeah.

[Lena Waithe]

And you're a leader. Go get in that car. Go talk to God. Go play the music, and go figure this out. And that's how I did it. Life is gonna be lifeing.

[Brandis]

Yeah, life was lifeing before people were saying that to your girlfriend.

[Lena Waithe]

Yes, of course. There's always. It's not the same. No, it's not the same.

[Brandis]

It shouldn't be. Life isn't the same.

[Lena Waithe]

It's not the same.

[Brandis]

People come and go out of your Life.

[Lena Waithe]

And after 172 episodes, I mean, the flip. I've been thinking about how long and steady we kept it together.

[Brandis]

Okay. We're now gonna go to a place about Girlfriends having what is technically a spinoff.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah.

[Brandis]

The Game. When I came to work at Girlfriends, what I remember is you walking, running.

[Lena Waithe]

Back and forth down that hall, back.

[Brandis]

And forth between the Game and Girlfriends. And the Game was in its second season. You do such a beautiful job with the Game and making sure we know it's a show from you and from your brand, but you wanna make sure people know it's not Girlfriend. So how intentional were you about staffing that room and even sort of checking yourself to the Game? Always felt different. How do you make it its own thing?

[Lena Waithe]

With the Game, I decided it was a sorority.

[Brandis]

Yeah.

[Lena Waithe]

And that competition, the Game was priority over their. Whatever relationship that they had. That changes the whole tenor of the show right there. And the second thing is, if these were the women behind the men.

[Brandis]

Absolutely.

[Lena Waithe]

I needed then that room to be split. So I remember thinking, this time around, I literally want to sit at the head of that table, and I want to see half men, half women.

[Brandis]

Wow. Without the sexes.

[Lena Waithe]

Yes. So that. Because that's what. And also the idea of competition, that energy going at each other. Energy. I knew that. I want to talk about race. I have to find writers who are willing to talk about race in a very candid way. I was very clear that I wanted. I wanted to show that you can build friendship out of race, out of a bad place. Tasha Mack and Kelly Pitts, Come on. They did not like each other. And Tasha thought, you know, she had the upper hand, but no, Kelly would come back. She didn't care.

[Brandis]

But such a great dude. You got one woman who's the mother, you know, which is. Who's, like, managing her son's career and all that kind of stuff. And you got this white woman who's married to one of the. And then you got med school, of course, you know, this young woman who's, like, starting to be a doctor but happens to be married to football player.

[Lena Waithe]

But I put all the culture in the show because, I mean, that's. Those were the things we were upset about. Black Athletes dating white women. So I just put it in the show. Let's talk about that.

[Brandis]

You really tapped into something with culture with that one. I remember because Matthew Cherry did the whole thing, like, bring it back.

[Lena Waithe]

Oh, yeah.

[Brandis]

Like, you know, it was a whole.

[Lena Waithe]

That was major.

[Brandis]

It was the, like, the people really rallied around us that we had these.

[Lena Waithe]

Sort of public tools to talk about because.

[Brandis]

And the Internet was helpful.

[Lena Waithe]

Yeah. It was the first time you can democratize something. So the public facing idea of the audience saying, no, we want this show. We were in that moment, too, which was amazing. I mean, to still make history over. When we relaunched the show on BET. On BET, those numbers was it 7.7. It shook up the town. Oh, I remember being at the premiere.

[Brandis]

But I remember watching it with an audience, which is also a rare thing.

[Lena Waithe]

I know we had a big audience. That was fun.

[Brandis]

A rare thing to watch a TV.

[Lena Waithe]

Premiere on a screen like that.

[Brandis]

Big screen. Yeah. It felt like you hit the lottery again.

[Lena Waithe]

If you go back at that time, there was not a lot of our images on big screen or the little screen.

[Brandis]

Right.

[Lena Waithe]

The amount of opportunities to talk about what was authentic to us and air out. We were blessed to be able to do it. If you think about sports, we think about energy, we think about aggression. So the pace and the. And the male. The male presence in the show changed the nature of the show.

[Brandis]

Even though you guys love the game.

[Lena Waithe]

Oh, my God, they love black dudes.

[Brandis]

It's like, for them, they're like, this is us.

[Lena Waithe]

It's my turn, My turn.

[Brandis]

And also, I remember, like, I always tell people I didn't get a chance to go to hbcu, you know? Okay, you went to a PWI as well.

[Lena Waithe]

Yes.

[Brandis]

But being on that lot, Radford.

[Lena Waithe]

Oh, my God.

[Brandis]

I mean, could you imagine?

[Lena Waithe]

But my whole TV life is hbcu. South Syndrome, Moesha. But you created JD but then I created my own.

[Brandis]

Your own universe.

[Lena Waithe]

My own universe.

[Brandis]

You know what I'm saying? We had so much fun.

[Lena Waithe]

Our sets were popular.

[Brandis]

Oh, y'all. Okay. Take night. All right. People's birthday. Somebody go have a cake. The dj, the live audience, we had so much fun. I was, like, stepping into.

[Lena Waithe]

And the energy of going before the audience, too. It feels like a game day. Right?

[Brandis]

I remember Debbie Allen was directing the first episode back, too, for Girlfriends when I was there, and I was like, debbie Allen's here. As we move on to another show that I think really redefined the black woman protagonist on primetime.

[Lena Waithe]

I know, right?

[Brandis]

Tv. Okay. All right.

[Lena Waithe]

Okay.

[Brandis]

Being Mary Jane, what were you trying to say to us about the black woman?

[Lena Waithe]

In that moment, I started to recognize that as a woman, I think that we have survived by a lot of our lies. This person who tells you the news every night seems like she got it all together. She's quacked.

[Brandis]

There's a sheen.

[Lena Waithe]

She has a sheen. Not even using her real name. And then for her as a character, what's gonna kill you if you don't come to grips with some of this?

[Brandis]

Yeah, I mean, I think one of the things I love most about the show is her family. When you see her go home, you get a sense of, oh, this is not only who she is from, but it's who she seems to be kind of running away from.

[Lena Waithe]

She was connected to who they were yesterday, and the pain of starting to see it wither. And so I think when you say trying to run away from it more, Mary Jane was scared that life wasn't turning out as promised.

[Brandis]

It's interesting to go from Joan to the Mary Jane character, which they are very different, and I think that voice is very different too. Is being Mary Jane sort of a reflection of where you were at that time as well? Or is it just something you were ready to explore or go just to be a little bit more vulnerable in terms of what she was dealing with?

[Lena Waithe]

I really believe that as creators and certainly my processes, when I go into make something, I am in concert with Source. Yeah, I'm open.

[Brandis]

Yeah, it feels like that.

[Lena Waithe]

So when I was writing Girlfriends, this character started visiting me, and I would get messages. I could hear them, and I would just write them down. And sometimes I was trying to write them in Girlfriends on post it notes. Funny enough, I had posted notes. So, yes, they were. They often visit me when I was trying to write in my other, you know, write for girlfriend game.

[Brandis]

Oh, yeah, I know about that. You working on something, you're like, sit down, sit down, sit down. I'm gonna get to you. I got to finish this draft today, but I'm. Come over there.

[Lena Waithe]

Yes, but she visited me. She showed me who she was. She showed me the postage. She showed me her house. Wow.

[Brandis]

She told me, nice house.

[Lena Waithe]

Come on, I'm gonna have a nice house.

[Brandis]

Yes, you will. Production design. Go get it.

[Lena Waithe]

Well, that's also my. It's also my politics. We belong in all kind of spaces, beautiful spaces.

[Brandis]

I learned that from you for sure, about, you know, aesthetics. Not just for aesthetic's sake, but rather sort of honoring.

[Lena Waithe]

Honoring beauty. Beauty, to me, in the sanctuary is a Part of my writing process. That said, that's also part of my politics for us. That's what I want for us as people. I want our neighborhoods to be beautified. I want our homes to be organized. Because I think you're gonna tap closer to source.

[Brandis]

Cause it's interesting, the thing that I kind of pick up on. Cause I'm watching a bunch of your stuff, like back to back. Beautiful spaces.

[Lena Waithe]

Yes.

[Brandis]

Beautiful people.

[Lena Waithe]

Yes.

[Brandis]

Dealing with some ugly shit.

[Lena Waithe]

Okay. Come on, Brandice. Brandice.

[Brandis]

I mean, on Being Mary Jane, there are things that she's throwing all kind of rocks.

[Lena Waithe]

Maybe we put her in a glass house from the metaphor of that. She's throwing so many rocks and she lives in a glass house and not looking at her own self.

[Brandis]

And it really connected with people immediately, quickly, you know.

[Lena Waithe]

Cause ber. Jane is also a fun character to write. Cause she's unapologetic.

[Brandis]

Anything can help with the sperm, the steel. You like, what? Like, okay. I'm like, what's happening?

[Lena Waithe]

This woman could do anything.

[Brandis]

Yeah.

[Lena Waithe]

But when people say, oh, my God, you got cameras in my house? That's me. I was like, see, we got work to do.

[Brandis]

Okay. We got some stuff to unpack.

[Lena Waithe]

We have some things to unpack.

[Brandis]

And it's very cinematic, I think, with Being Mary Jane. That leads me to my next project where there's one particular movie I want to talk about. Because I was at this premiere. It stars someone. And also she was a part of making sure this movie.

[Lena Waithe]

She is our. She's our angel.

[Brandis]

She's our angel.

[Lena Waithe]

She's our angel.

[Brandis]

She's our angel. And I love that we also share that. This love for Whitney Houston. That's her. About Sparkle. First thing I want to ask you is a little bit about process. When you sit down, you are open, but you're usually pulling from your own imagination or your own inspirations or from your own life. When you sat down to do an adaptation or a retelling of a movie that had already been in existence. And obviously one where you're working with someone like Whitney Houston, who was a legend, an icon, and who wants to do a remake, if you will.

[Lena Waithe]

Yes. Yes.

[Brandis]

How did you go about sitting down and having to write your version of Sparkle?

[Lena Waithe]

First of all, Celine brought me into the project. Cause he wanted to. He knew that I would come in. Mara's gonna see something that is gonna be true to the. True to the essence of what we love the original to be. But how is it in a conversation with today correct what I did not want to write is a man killing a woman. And certainly not a black woman. I was not interested in that. But her sort of taking the fall for his death as a gift to the family out of love, but also a way to sort of reorient the whole story. And what does that look like then, as a mother, daughter, and what you did or did not do in preparation for maybe your first daughter, but you were able to still have redemption in your second daughter. And the mirror that they had on each other and each other's lives and what they were both willing to sacrifice to do that.

[Brandis]

I'm gonna ask you the question. What was it like working with Whitney Houston?

[Lena Waithe]

One thing I would love to share. Like, I remember when we talking about table reads, and I was so nervous and excited, I mean, nervous in general, to hear read. But then Whitney Houston's gonna be sitting there and reading your words. But I remember after it was over, and it was a very successful table read, and she said to me that I was her angel. What? And she said, I've been trying to make this movie for, I think, at that point, 13 years.

[Brandis]

Yeah.

[Lena Waithe]

And she goes, you got us the green light, and you're my angel. I mean, I'm done.

[Brandis]

You're like, die.

[Lena Waithe]

I need and seen.

[Brandis]

Bye.

[Lena Waithe]

And that generosity, that connection. I also remember her having joy on the set. I'm so happy that she had. There was a lot of laughter and fun. Fact. Salim often tells the story. Sometimes, like, he's, you know, working on a different scene. And Whitney's around, but she's not in the scene.

[Brandis]

Right.

[Lena Waithe]

But anyway, he's hearing all this commotion on the set. And, like, he's, you know, director. What was all that noise? I was Whitney over there. Entertaining, like, just having fun with the P's. There was. I can't remember what the dance was, but there was a new dance. And she was always trying to do the dance.

[Brandis]

Come on.

[Lena Waithe]

She had a lot of joy and actually a lot of. The night before she passed Saleem, had he aired his director's cut.

[Brandis]

Wow.

[Lena Waithe]

To a packed room. People loved it. It was an amazing screen. I remember saying to Saleem, I cannot wait for Whitney to see this. I think about that often. But she knew she was making something special.

[Brandis]

Yeah.

[Lena Waithe]

You know, Whitney, for me, is my first image maker. She's my first inspiration. I remember seeing her inside of Seventeen magazine.

[Brandis]

Come on.

[Lena Waithe]

And I see this before she was Whitney, and I'm a teenager, and I have Seventeen magazine. White, white, white, white. Who is this?

[Brandis]

And she could be your cousin. Y'all know your favorite.

[Lena Waithe]

Okay. I love it. Thank you. Girl, don't be. You got me blown up when you say some stuff like that, but it's real. She was just light to me. She was inspiration. She was. I just rooted for her all the way through. So then to get to work with her and then for her to say that to you and then also deliver. Deliver a film that will live on, that really reflects her elegance, her talent, her taste, her style. I'm very proud to be a part of that project.

[Brandis]

For you to see Whitney Houston in that magazine and, like, see something, I just believe your steps were ordered.

[Lena Waithe]

Yes.

[Brandis]

To that moment, to that table read.

[Lena Waithe]

Yes.

[Brandis]

For her to see you.

[Lena Waithe]

Yes. And give me that.

[Brandis]

And give you that.

[Lena Waithe]

And give me that.

[Brandis]

Last but not least, I wanna get into you sitting in a director's chair.

[Lena Waithe]

Ah.

[Brandis]

How was it for you the first time sitting in the director's chair on the game?

[Lena Waithe]

I could not have picked a better moment to be a director than to direct the most supportive, giving cast. We had so much fun. And also what was great to have sort of have a level of authority of storytelling that when as a director, I'm like, ooh, I'm behind, knowing I had a power to be like, okay, we're gonna be. We're gonna make our day. Cause I actually don't need that scene. I've already edited the episode. And I actually have that power to cut that scene, make the day. Like that gave me a safety to sort of. Sort of save myself in the larger picture, but also get what I needed for the episode. But really, Lena, it's interesting. That experience fortified something in me, invalidated something in me that I gave to myself. Can you direct and could direct under these conditions when the train is moving at top speed, Step away as a showrunner.

[Brandis]

Yeah.

[Lena Waithe]

Do all these. Can you do this and lead? But to go back and recently direct again, I want more of that expression. Almost as another way to expand my voice, but also a reward of knowing I did my best to complete that idea and get as close to the vision in which it was downloaded or it was explored. Really excites me right now.

[Brandis]

Love that. This will be my last question before I share some words with you. What is your definition of a classic TV show?

[Lena Waithe]

Being able to strike a level of connection and honesty in an exact time. It will remain evergreen in its storytelling. I think that makes a classic.

[Brandis]

I think you've done that more than once. Thank you.

[Lena Waithe]

Thank you.

[Brandis]

Speaking of creating classic TV shows, I remember being on the Radford lot before I was an employee of yours, my sister and I came to a taping of the game in its first season. So, you know, when you sit in the bleachers, you can see down on the stage, and I could see you standing behind the podium just being fly, like, glorious, charismatic, charming, obviously beautiful. And I just remember seeing you from the stands, like, literally, like. And just thinking, I said to my sister, I said, I'm gonna work for her one day.

[Lena Waithe]

Wow.

[Brandis]

That was sort of my Seventeen magazine moment.

[Lena Waithe]

Oh, wow. Come on. Don't get me. My makeup's cute. Don't get me crying up in here.

[Brandis]

Cause I think y'all, that you said you're a brand, and I also steal that from you. I think I sort of become a brand myself. But I didn't know a television show creator could be a brand until I saw you. It was such a joy to be seen by you. Even those glances, those glimpses, those, hey, what's up? You kind of. You really taught me by example. And also watching you juggle all that stuff, watching you be a mom, be a wife, be a showrunner, be a show creator, and I would see you really, like, walk through these Hollywood streets and walk into these meetings, and you win the room.

[Lena Waithe]

Wow. Because I think you are killing the room, doing all the things. If you're saying I am your inspiration or part of your inspiration for that, that is a beautiful compliment. And it's interesting how you said you saw me in that glance. I think light sees light. You needed to be Lena. Maybe you needed to see it as part of God's story.

[Brandis]

Yes.

[Lena Waithe]

So you can light it up. And, I mean, what you're doing with Helm and Grad, shining the light for so many other people and how it's transformed and impacted and how you carried the baton, you took the light and you ran with it. I'm so happy, to be honest, that you landed in. In my safekeeping.

[Brandis]

Yeah. You were my Ralph.

[Lena Waithe]

Yes. To Then also underground railroaded you to Gina.

[Brandis]

I think, in a way, you knew I needed to be in her care.

[Lena Waithe]

I knew you needed to be here. Earlier in our conversation, I told you one of the biggest things is I.

[Brandis]

Needed to stay in la.

[Lena Waithe]

Stay in la. We needed you to stay in la. And I was right.

[Brandis]

Yeah, you were absolutely right.

[Lena Waithe]

I was right.

[Brandis]

I'm so grateful for that call. I'll never forget it. I'll never forget it. Claire, she was like, okay, go over there. Be on time.

[Lena Waithe]

Because you did what you did and continue to do what you Do. You've opened up doors for other people. So our tree just keeps growing.

[Brandis]

It keeps growing. Well, thank you for being the seed. And then for you to tell Gina, like, you should get Lena. Lena should be an assistant. That was something that I think shifted something for me and Gina, because for Gina to be in that chair and for us to reminisce about me coming on to work on Secret Life of Bees, and. And then she, you know, then led me over to Ava and so on and so on, so. But you will always find you're like the baby.

[Lena Waithe]

We just.

[Brandis]

I know. Just.

[Lena Waithe]

Just here.

[Brandis]

Your turn. Your turn.

[Lena Waithe]

I'm the Lynn.

[Brandis]

I'm the Lynn. I'm the Lynn. I'm the Lynn from couch to couch to couch. Okay. You're the. Joan started with you, but you blew up, girl.

[Lena Waithe]

Come on, come on, come on, come on, come on. You know, it's funny. That's why I started Writer's Colony for me. Yes. Yes is because. Who's catching? Who's catching?

[Brandis]

That's why I started the Hillman Grant Mentorship lab. Yeah.

[Lena Waithe]

And whispering to them all the knowledge that was gifted to us, all the seeds that were given to us, 1. For the fun of it and for the. I mean, that's also a way. Collaboration is fun, but it's for the community of it, because I have a community. Gina called me. I am in desperate need of.

[Brandis]

Yes, yes.

[Lena Waithe]

You know what? I got somebody.

[Brandis]

Yeah.

[Lena Waithe]

Ralph did that for me. Debbie Allen has done that for me. And I think if we all keep shining our light on each other, we'll just keep, you know, keep the glow up. Is that what they say?

[Brandis]

Thank you for being my beginning. I appreciate you.

[Lena Waithe]

Thank you. I appreciate you.

[Brandis]

I love you.

[Lena Waithe]

I'm proud of you, Lena. Thanks for having me.

[Brandis]

Thanks for being here. That's a cut.