Building a Legacy with Phylicia Rashad

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Legacy Talk with Lena Waithe

Episode: “Building a Legacy with Phylicia Rashad”

Date: October 14, 2025
Featuring: Lena Waithe & Phylicia Rashad
Produced by: Hillman Grad & Lemonada Media

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Overview

This episode of Legacy Talk with Lena Waithe is a rich, heartfelt exploration of Phylicia Rashad’s remarkable legacy as an actress, storyteller, and cultural icon. Lena and Phylicia traverse Rashad’s expansive career, delving into her formative years on Broadway, her influential turn as Claire Huxtable on The Cosby Show, her approach to crafting layered performances, her deep familial inspirations, and her ongoing contributions to theater and film. The conversation weaves personal history, artistry, Black legacy, and the philosophy of excellence across generations.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Broadway Beginnings and Understudy Years

• The Wiz & Dreamgirls: Rashad reflects on being an understudy for Glinda in The Wiz and Dina in Dreamgirls, and how “you train as a dramatic actress, but to work and pay rent, you have to do more. You gotta sing, you gotta dance—even if not as good as your sister, you pretend.” (02:09)
• The Art of Understudying: She clarifies, “An understudy studies the role, not necessarily the actor… When you walk on stage, you are part of the ensemble. If you’re just regurgitating, there’s nothing to respond to.” (03:31)
• Always Ready: “You gotta be ready. When you train with good people, that’s what you learn. But you still never know.” (05:19)

2. Legacy and The Cosby Show

• Personal Impact: Phylicia describes what The Cosby Show did for her life—“I didn’t have to worry about money. I could pay my son’s tuition. But I still just lived as I always had—kept my own house, took care of my child.” (07:02)
• Vivian Ayers Allen’s Influence: Her mother’s presence in her roles: “Oh, Phylicia, it doesn’t matter who you’re playing. You’re always being me.” (08:29)

3. Acting Process and Iconic Episodes

• Directing & Musicality:
  • On being directed by Malcolm-Jamal Warner: “He was learning the mechanics… it was marvelous to be part of that.” (12:13)
  • “The words themselves inform how I say it… I go to the word itself.” (14:28)
• Claire’s Liberation & Performance Choices: On playing a menopause storyline: “I haven’t given birth to five children either, but I’m playing this role. So let’s go.” (16:28)
• On Writing & Meaning:
  • “When you’re afforded an opportunity to do something that has meaning, I jump at it.” (18:27)
  • “So much of sitcoms is just rhythm and nagging, but writing about what really happened, bringing context, makes the work special.” (18:27)

4. Family, Heritage, and the Definition of Success

• Mother’s Wisdom and Poetry: Rashad tells the moving story of her mother’s long-form poem, “Hawk,” which became a family and cultural touchstone for imagination and freedom. (22:24–31:08)
  • “Success wasn’t what my mother tried to give us. She wanted us to be free… realize our full human potential.” (22:24)
• On Creative Upbringing: Vivid anecdotes about her mother teaching her, her sister, and their friends Katherine Dunham combinations in the living room, or being her first piano teacher. (24:00)

5. Polly and Representation

• How Rashad’s role in Polly was transformative, remembering not being able to see Pollyanna in theaters as a child due to segregation, and the excitement of working with Debbie Allen and Keisha Knight Pulliam.
  • “I knew it was going to be great because Debbie… wasn’t just going to direct it, she’d choreograph it too. There was going to be some dancing.” (32:26)
• A humorous regret: “The only thing I didn’t like… was not being able to be in that church scene because it was on fire the whole day. I was out there with a stick up my—” (34:21)

6. Portraying Mothers and Matriarchs

• Once Upon a Time… When We Were Colored: She modeled “Ma Punk” on her great aunt and grandmothers—women who “were very simple, but knew how to love.” She insisted that participating was about “heritage and legacy,” not money. (38:48, 42:25)
  • Memorable quote: “If I can’t do this, I don’t want to do anything.” (42:25)
• On Portraying Love, Loss, and Family: “Family was the dream. People forget, for folks a generation and a half removed from slavery, family was a luxury.” (45:51)

7. The Old Settler & Exploring Human Complexity

• Collaborating with Debbie Allen and the dynamic of sisters in The Old Settler: “We were always joking around… but those sisters love each other. They’re just working through resentments and pain that are never just one thing.” (50:18, 53:34, 61:36)
• “Life ain’t no one way or the other. Life is spherical.” (61:36)

8. A Raisin in the Sun: Honoring Ancestors through Art

• Rashad sought to bring “Lena’s dignity and her pride in being of five generations who endured every manner of insult and indignity, but who never sold themselves out.” (65:16)
• Specificity in set design: “Cleanliness. There is honor and pride in people. This sink [set piece] says something different. So we’re going to fix this.” (66:23)
• The play “is about three love stories… and about seeing each other’s humanity, through love, beyond anger or pain.” (69:00–70:36)
• “It’s this love that has brought us through… it will see us through even this time.” (74:53)

9. Creed and Contemporary Legacy

• On working with Ryan Coogler: “He’s such a teddy bear… his eyes are so bright. Always very subtle, giving you a suggestion and moving a thing around.” (80:16)
• On nurturing Michael B. Jordan’s “Adonis Creed” as her own: “My mother was the Pied Piper, honey. She’d take your child if you let her!… But this was also a complicated love—Adonis is her husband’s child, after his death.” (81:53–83:26)

10. Purpose and Continuing the Conversation

• On the play Purpose: “I want to do this because this is Steppenwolf Theater and I know there’s work ethic here... I had seen Brandon Jacobs-Jenkins' work. And it’s new. How creative can I really be?” (86:30–87:24)
• On what it means: “This play is about understanding purpose and self, generational connection and isolation... Sometimes we miss one another in family, sometimes we even miss ourselves.” (88:50–91:07)
• Defining a phenomenal actress: “Ruby Dee… She literally disappeared before my eyes in full light, because I went where her focus went. That’s a phenomenal actress: someone who can take you there.” (92:28)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Being Prepared:
  "You gotta be ready. When you train with good people, that’s what you learn."
  — Phylicia Rashad (05:19)

• On Crafting Performance:
  "What is this scene about? What is happening internally with this person? That’s internal work. That’s the work of an actor. You do the work of an actor."
  — Phylicia Rashad (04:30)

• On Roles Mimicking Family:
  “Oh, Phylicia, it doesn't matter who you're playing. You're always being me.”
  — Vivian Ayers (as recounted by Rashad) (08:29)

• On The Power of Writing and Meaningful Work:
  "When you’re afforded an opportunity to do something that has meaning, I jump at it."
  — Phylicia Rashad (18:27)

• On Success and Freedom:
  “My mother wanted us to be free in ourselves, in our spirits, in our imagination. That was success.”
  — Phylicia Rashad (22:24)

• On Family as the Dream:
  “Family was the dream. For a people who were a generation and a half removed from a time where family was a luxury… Family is our greatest gift.”
  — Phylicia Rashad (45:51, 47:57)

• On Collaboration with Debbie Allen:
  "Collaboration and cooperation. It’s that simple. And respect."
  — Phylicia Rashad (55:16)

• On The Complexity of Life:
  “Life ain’t no one way or the other. Life is spherical.”
  — Phylicia Rashad (61:36)

• On The Art of Acting:
  “If I just choose one quality, that's one quality. But a crayon box has a lot of colors in it, and human emotion has a lot of colors… more interesting to explore than one single thing.”
  — Phylicia Rashad (62:21)

• On Ancestry and Love:
  "It’s love that has brought us through and will see us through even this time."
  — Phylicia Rashad (74:53)

• On the Role of Lena Younger:
  “She is a woman who is full of love. Not some hard piece of furniture with a wig on it. Not some angry Black woman carrying the weight of the world.”
  — Phylicia Rashad (75:26)

• On Acting Icons:
  “Ruby Dee was a phenomenal actress—she literally disappeared before my eyes in full light, because I went where her focus went.”
  — Phylicia Rashad (92:28)

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Key Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment | |-----------|---------------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:28 | Rashad introduces foundational values: collaboration, legacy, respect | | 02:09 | Discussion of Broadway years and surviving in NY as an understudy | | 07:02 | Shift: How Claire Huxtable and The Cosby Show changed Rashad's life | | 08:29 | Vivian Ayers Allen’s influence on Rashad as an actor/mother | | 12:13 | Working with Malcolm-Jamal Warner as director | | 16:28 | Discussing “Claire’s Liberation” episode—portraying menopause | | 22:24 | Defining success, mother’s philosophy, and the legacy of "Hawk" | | 32:26 | “Polly,” childhood exclusion, representation in media | | 38:48 | Role in “Once Upon a Time… When We Were Colored” | | 45:51 | Reflection on family as legacy and dream | | 50:18 | Relationship between sisters in “The Old Settler” | | 61:36 | On life’s complexity and exploring the emotional spectrum | | 65:16 | On approaching Lena in “A Raisin in the Sun” | | 80:16 | Memories of “Creed” and being directed by Ryan Coogler | | 86:30 | Purpose and working with new playwrights | | 92:28 | Defining what makes a phenomenal actress |

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Conclusion & Legacy

Phylicia Rashad’s conversation with Lena Waithe is a masterclass in craft, legacy, and Black womanhood. Rashad’s insights span performance, preparation, ancestry, and the essence of meaningful storytelling. The tone is reverent yet candid, shaped by humor, humility, and reverence for those who came before. This episode celebrates the ways Rashad’s artistry has fostered new generations of artists and changed the cultural landscape—making it essential listening for anyone moved by Black legacy and the power of narrative.

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Transcript

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Lemonade.

[Phylicia Rashad]

Collaboration, cooperation, and respect. It's that simple. I haven't given birth to five children either, but I'm playing this role, so let's go. Words are so important. Life ain't no one way or the other. And I said, this has nothing to do with money. This has to do with heritage and legacy. And if I can't do this, I don't want to do anything.

[Host/Interviewer (likely a female interviewer familiar with theater and TV)]

Legacy.

[Phylicia Rashad]

Oh, legacy.

[Host/Interviewer (likely a female interviewer familiar with theater and TV)]

First of all, this is truly a dream come true for me to be sitting across from you and to be having this conversation today. And she's never seen an episode of Legacy Talk, so she don't really know what she's in for. I know I start every episode at the beginning for me, usually when I saw the person for the first time, but this time, we're going to start at a place where I wasn't around for this thing in particular. So we were at the Tonys last night. Congratulations on the wins for purpose. So this conversation is going to end with Broadway, and we're going to begin with it as well. I want to talk to you about the Wiz. What was it like for you being an understudy for Glenda? Is that true? You were an understudy?

[Phylicia Rashad]

Yes.

[Host/Interviewer (likely a female interviewer familiar with theater and TV)]

What was that like for you? Obviously, we just acknowledged the passing of Quincy Jones. We honored him in the memoriam last night. The Wiz is very much a part of all of us, and you were part of that original Broadway production. So can you talk to us a little bit about being an understudy and also being a mouse and being part of the ensemble and just being a part of that world?

[Phylicia Rashad]

Sure. So I trained to be a dramatic actress. Right. And when I came to New York, it was very apparent and all too obvious if I wanted to eat and pay rent, I had to do a little bit more than that. So you gotta sing, huh? You gotta sing. And if you're not the dancer that your sister is, you're an actress. So you can pretend like you are, but you gotta do those things if you're gonna live.

[Host/Interviewer (likely a female interviewer familiar with theater and TV)]

You also were an understudy for a little show called Dream Girls.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Who did you.

[Host/Interviewer (likely a female interviewer familiar with theater and TV)]

What role were you understudying for? On Dreamgirls.

[Phylicia Rashad]

So in Dreamgirls, it was Dina Jones. In the Wiz, it was Glinda, the Good Witch of the South. In. Prior to all of that, It Ain't Supposed to Die a Natural Death, there were four roles that I understudied simultaneously.

[Host/Interviewer (likely a female interviewer familiar with theater and TV)]

What was the process for you? I'm assuming you were. You were understudying Cheryl Lee Ralph on Dreamgirls, who we've had on the show as well. And we spoke to her about that time in her life. So can you just talk to us about what an understudy is actually doing and what you were doing in particular at Dreamgirls? Sort of studying everything that Shirley Ralph was doing while playing Dina?

[Phylicia Rashad]

Actually, I wasn't studying her. I was studying the role. An understudy learns the roles. And if an understudy is quick, an understudy learns the blocking. An understudy pays attention to the rhythm of the scene, knows what the scene is about. But when you enter a scene, when you are on stage with other actors, you're no longer in understudy. You're part of the ensemble. And you have to bring it like that. And you have to bring something for people to respond to. And if you're regurgitating or imitating something that you saw, that is nothing to respond to.

[Host/Interviewer (likely a female interviewer familiar with theater and TV)]

How do you obviously watch and pay attention and remember to bring your own artistry to Dina?

[Phylicia Rashad]

Or Glinda?

[Host/Interviewer (likely a female interviewer familiar with theater and TV)]

Or Glinda, Yeah.

[Phylicia Rashad]

Or any of those four women.

[Host/Interviewer (likely a female interviewer familiar with theater and TV)]

Yeah.

[Phylicia Rashad]

Yeah. This is what an actor does. Yeah, I'm looking at that. And also doing what an actor does. What. What is this scene about? What is happening internally with this person? What am I not saying? What would it cost me if I didn't say what I am saying? That's internal work, and that's the work of an actor. So you do the work of an actor. That's what you do.

[Host/Interviewer (likely a female interviewer familiar with theater and TV)]

Were you nervous or always ready if one of the roles, one of the actors obviously wasn't there? How are you always feeling? Were you always sort of shaking with anticipation?

[Phylicia Rashad]

Always, yeah. Every time it ever happened, I walked in and they said, you're on. I'm trying to think of a time in which I had noticed, and I don't recall times in which I had noticed. You know, it's like, you gotta be ready. You just gotta be ready. When you train with good people, that's what you learn. You learn to be ready, and still you don't know.

[Host/Interviewer (likely a female interviewer familiar with theater and TV)]

Thank you for sharing that with us. Cause I just think that's so amazing, and it's kind of sad. The thing about theater is that it is a moment. It turns into a vapor when we don't get to go back and see it. But I'm grateful you shared that time with us so we can imagine what it would have been like to be in the audience when that little slip of paper is in the playbill that says this person won't be on tonight, but you'll have the pleasure of saying Ms. Phylicia. Now we're gonna jump to my beginning with you. And I think maybe a lot of the world, you know, there are landmark TV shows that come along that change things, that shift culture, but also special shows that actually change people's lives. And the Cosby show changed my life and I think the lives of so many of us. And I know how Claire Huxtable affected my life and how she changed my life. I'd love to know how Claire Huxton will change yours.

[Phylicia Rashad]

I didn't have to worry about money. I could pay my son's tuition. You know, I didn't have to call my father for a thing, although he was always there, ready and willing to help me in any way that he could. How did it change my life? Well, I became recognizable. I was somewhat recognizable from my work on One Life to Live, the soap opera. But with the Cosby show, it did change. And my mother used to say to me all the time, you don't see yourself as other people see you. And she was very right about that, because I just did the things I did all the time. You know, I kept my own house, I prepared my son's food, I washed his clothes and got him ready for school, took him to school, did all those things. I always did. And people imagined life for me would be one way, but that wasn't how I was living at all. I was living as I had lived, you know? And I liked that you mentioned your.

[Host/Interviewer (likely a female interviewer familiar with theater and TV)]

Mother, the great Vivian Ayers Allen, who is an icon in her own right and still with us, still earthside, thank God. How much of Vivian Ayers is in Claire Huxtable? A lot.

[Phylicia Rashad]

I didn't think of it that way, but this is what my mother said. Oh, Phylicia, it doesn't matter who you're playing. You're always being me.

[Host/Interviewer (likely a female interviewer familiar with theater and TV)]

Yes, she did. I want to talk about three particular episodes of the Cosby Show. The first one is one of my favorite episodes, the Night of the Wretched. It's actually called Part One for some reason. Co directed by Malcolm Jamal Warner. I'm curious. What was it like being directed by a young man who you met very young, playing your son? And I think this is season six at this point. What was that like for you? Because it's a big episode for you. So I'm curious how he went about helping you find some of those classic moments and those classic lines.

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[Host/Interviewer (likely a female interviewer familiar with theater and TV)]

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[Phylicia Rashad]

Malcolm was learning, I want to say he was learning the mechanics of directing and directing in a studio, dealing with cameras and angles and calling shots and what that was like to be in the control room and do that. And it was marvelous to be a part of that, you know, because you always. Well, I enjoy being a part of people's great moments, you know, and just being in it, just being a part of it, you know, that is. Was remarkable to have that happen because when I met him, he was this. He was this kid with a squeaky voice, you know, some little Theo voice that used to sometimes. But he was always bright and he was always polite. Yeah, very, very, very well mannered. His mother reared him very well and he was always a joy to be with. And we did nothing but laugh all the time.

[Host/Interviewer (likely a female interviewer familiar with theater and TV)]

I'm so curious where Big Fun came from. Was it something you found in rehearsals? Was it something that, you know, he suggested? Was it something you pitched? It obviously stayed and stuck with us. I'm just curious where that came from.

[Phylicia Rashad]

The words themselves. Big Fun, you know, and being a parent, you know, big Fun.

[Host/Interviewer (likely a female interviewer familiar with theater and TV)]

We know you're an amazing singer and there's just so much musicality in the way that you deliver lines that there's a beautiful rhythmic thing that happens that we love to watch and that you become known for. As I was rewatching the episode, that's what kind of hit me where I was wondering, is that her music ear doing that with the line? Because that's something I think only a Ms. Phylicia Rashad would do with that line.

[Phylicia Rashad]

Oh, I don't know if I'm the only one who would do that.

[Host/Interviewer (likely a female interviewer familiar with theater and TV)]

I think so.

[Phylicia Rashad]

I don't know about the only one, but yes, you know, I guess there is musicality when I, When I listen to reruns and I hear that, I said, girl, are you talking? Are you singing what you doing? You know, because it's as just part of. That's part of language and speech as I understand it. Language is so beautiful and it is fluid and is tonal, you know, it's expressive, it's internal, it's fire, it's water, it's air. The Words themselves inform how I say it because I don't think about how to say it. I go to the word itself.

[Host/Interviewer (likely a female interviewer familiar with theater and TV)]

Well, it's beautiful. There's another really great episode I love called Claire's Liberation, and it's interesting because it made me think about. There's an episode of the Dick Van Dyke show where they give her an episode called Blonde Hair, Brunette, where Mary Tyler Moore, for the first time, is able to show off her comedic chops. And when I went back and revisited Claire's Liberation, in which Claire, you know, realizes she's about to go through menopause, and her older kids have all these ideas of what menopause is, and of course, Claire and Cliff decide to play a joke on them. And Claire, you know, does all these heightened things in terms of having a hot flash and being confused and being upset. And to me, it reminds me of that iconic episode as well, where obviously they're sort of handing you the episode in such a beautiful way and tackling something like menopause at that time and not being afraid of it. I'm curious what you thought when you first saw that script and knowing that you were going to really just devour that episode, which you do so beautifully.

[Phylicia Rashad]

Well, the first thing was Mr. Cosby and Jay Sandridge, the director.

[Host/Interviewer (likely a female interviewer familiar with theater and TV)]

Jay Sandrich, iconic director, yeah.

[Phylicia Rashad]

They approached me and they said, are you okay with this? And I said, yeah, why wouldn't I be okay with it? Well, we know that. We know that you're. Yeah. What? I'm what? Well, we know that. We know that you're not there yet. And I said, okay, I'm not there yet. Okay. I haven't given birth to five children either, but I'm playing this role. So let's go.

[Host/Interviewer (likely a female interviewer familiar with theater and TV)]

There's a very memorable line that still cracks me up. When I rewatched it, I laughed out loud again. I just wanted to eat something orange. Where did was that? It sounds like an ad lib, but was that on the page?

[Phylicia Rashad]

I think it was on the page. This is madness. It was madness because they would write like that and it would be madness, and you just go with it and have so much fun, you know, so much fun.

[Host/Interviewer (likely a female interviewer familiar with theater and TV)]

So good. Last but not least, there's an episode called Claire's Reunion where her college friends come home because will come to visit you and because you guys are hosting a dinner for your professor from Hillman, Professor Capel. And in the episode, you reminisce about taking part in the Sit Inside. And I remember watching it, obviously in my youth, not really understanding the weight of what was happening. And I think what I love about the Cosby show is how subversive it could be and revisiting the episode. I've seen the episode many times, but. And you're surrounded by so many amazing actresses as well. I'd love to know how you all approached those scenes. Sitting in the living room and talking about being college students and participating in the sit ins.

[Phylicia Rashad]

As an actor, you could do any number of things that have no meaning whatsoever. Just none. When you're afforded an opportunity to do something that has meaning, I jump at it. And in what we call sitcoms, you know, the area of sitcoms so much of it is you go back and you look at just any sitcom, then you just look at the writings and stuff. It has a rhythm, some of them. And they're nagging and they're, you know, they're going at one another. That's cute and funny and. No, it's not. It's very. Shows me you have no imagination. Uh huh. That's what it says to me. But when they can write about something that really happened and you could bring it into this context and present it to people in this way, that is not an everyday occurrence. And it makes the work very special and meaningful for me.

[Host/Interviewer (likely a female interviewer familiar with theater and TV)]

It's such a very powerful episode and all of you are so grounded in it. And Professor Capel just felt like a real person. I was also curious. A little thing. I don't know if you guys found this, but when you do, you're all doing impersonations of her. Your own impersonation of this professor. Where did the blinking come from?

[Phylicia Rashad]

Now I'm trying to remember who I knew who did that because you all.

[Host/Interviewer (likely a female interviewer familiar with theater and TV)]

Do it so beautifully. And I was just wondering whose idea was.

[Phylicia Rashad]

They said, I can't even remember whose idea that was. Truthfully, I cannot remember whose idea that was. But we grabbed it and we said, okay, we play with this. We're gonna do this.

[Host/Interviewer (likely a female interviewer familiar with theater and TV)]

So beautiful. Because obviously this is a fictitious character who we will never see, we will never meet. But you all do a wonderful job of just making her feel so real to us. And it just grounds the characters in such a way that these women went to historically black college and they had this professor that was tough on them, but also they honored and they admired and it's just a beautiful episode. And I think we're all so grateful to you and what you brought to the Cosby Show. And I'll just say, you know, there's the mother you're often given and then there's the mother you often want to. And Claire Huxtable was the mother I wanted. And I think it's because. Yeah, I think a lot of it had to do with just how attuned you were to your children. Always listening to them, but rearing them and protecting them. So thank you for Claire Huxtable. Thank you for putting your mother inside of her. We are grateful for you.

[Phylicia Rashad]

Thank you.

[Host/Interviewer (likely a female interviewer familiar with theater and TV)]

Now, because it's me, we have to talk about a different world. And there's a really beautiful episode that you guest star and you guest star in a different world a lot. A little bit just. There's a bit of a bridge, you know, between the two shows. And there's a great episode called Success, Lies and Videotape where Claire goes to Hillman to videotape, you know, some of the graduating seniors to help them enter into the workforce. And Fredd says, I didn't come here to figure out how to make a bunch of money. I came here for an education. And she's doing an archaeology dig at Hillman and she stumbles upon a shelter that was a part of the Underground Railroad. And Claire, at the end of the episode goes to see it and she's sort of confronted with her idea of what success is. Because, you know, sometimes these HBCUs are about pumping out very successful graduates and making money and doing that thing. I was curious, what. What does success mean to you, Ms. Phylicia Rashad?

[Phylicia Rashad]

You know, that was success. What does success mean to me? The way we were reared by our mother and we grew up in Houston, Texas, where there were some very successful people, very nice, successful people. But that wasn't what she was. That wasn't what she was trying to give us. My mother wanted us to be free. She wanted us to be free in ourselves. She wanted us to be free in our spirits. She wanted us to be free in our imagination. She wanted us to realize our full human potential and live up to it. If you can imagine growing up with a woman who teaches you like that. In her second publication, Hawk, which is a long form poem, an allegory, an allegory to freedom, which parallels flight through space without a vehicle. It was published 11 weeks before the launch of Sputnik 1. And when the astronauts did go in and out of space, they said some of the things that she had written and describing. And this was an inner experience for her. And this whole. I'm going to get you a copy of this. If Debbie hasn't already gifted you, I'm going to make sure you have it.

[Host/Interviewer (likely a female interviewer familiar with theater and TV)]

Thank you so much.

[Phylicia Rashad]

Because you need to beat this. It's such beautiful, beautiful poetry written by a woman who was a mother of three. She was recently divorced from my father and she had given up all of the social trappings of the dentist's wife. She had given all of that up. And what she was focused on was her writings and us. She would read to us in the morning something she had written. She'd get up early every morning at three o' clock in the morning from three to six. These were her golden hours because the world was asleep, the phone would not ring and no one was knocking on their door and we were asleep, right? And this is when she would write and she'd share some of the things she had written. And if you can imagine, you know, we little birds, because we were like little birds, she'd give it to us and we'd give it right back. She'd give it to us and we'd give it right back. And we run around chirping and saying things we couldn't possibly understand. The universe bears no ill to me. I bear no ill to it. The universe. And one of the. When this, this long form poem, which by the way was reprinted in honor of her 100th birthday, it was republished by Clemson University Press. And the peer review reads like a love letter. And they talk about her original rhythms and pacing and the power of the poetry of it all. Literally, what happens in this book is someone, a person, and it was really her. But she didn't identify it in that way. A person had grown weary of materialism and wanted to know something else about self and decided, well, maybe, let me think, maybe I could become something else. Thought about becoming a frog, leaping around naked all day. No, that wouldn't work. Somebody would come and eat me. She said no after that, thought about all these things. And then in the book she says she looked up and saw a diamond studded sky and there was an elm tree. She would climb up on this branch, sit on this branch and contemplate this diamond studded sky until wings were sprouted and that soar up there. That was a thought. So this person literally sits on the limb contemplating. Somebody walks by and says, man, what you need is a job. That's what someone once said to her about her writing poetry. Because, you know, you just don't do that. What kind of career is that? Are you gonna be successful writing poetry? They used to say all those poor children thinking about us, they'll never amount to anything. She fits. She feeds them figs and Coca Cola, you know, doesn't say stuff like that. You know, a nice Southern community where people are successful and nice. Okay, so this being sits here contemplating the sun and begins to have the experience of navigating, navigating space and the winds that come and knock you back and forth. And it's. You have to read it to really get the full context and sense of it. Because it isn't just about fantasy. It's about conquering one's own doubt and fear and anger and old things that you hold on to and letting go of so that you can come to this place where you are free inside yourself. It was something to grow up with. One who was writing this. Ah. And John Biggers created the illustrations for this book. And I think not until Debbie exhibited them at Dada had they been shown publicly. The. The drawings themselves, they're in the book, but the drawings themselves, they were very good friends, she and John Biggers. They had known each other since childhood. It was something to grow up with a mother. It wasn't always comfortable, wasn't always easy, but it sure was an adventure. And so we learned something. We learned to think of ourselves in other ways. She'd bring all of our friends in. You know, we're outside playing. And this when I'm like 7, 6 and 7 years old, she teach us core speech. She'd take the furniture in the living room, and she'd move it out of the way. She'd push it all against the walls. And she'd teach us Katherine Dunham combinations because she had cousins who danced with Katherine Dunham in that dance troupe. And she'd have us going across the floor doing these little combinations, say, okay, mom, here we go. This is how we grew. She was my first piano teacher. It was my mother who came to my school when I was in the second grade and taught the class, lift every voice and sing. It was like that. And it wasn't easy for her as a woman with three children being creative, it was not easy. And we watched that, but we watched her continue with persistence. We watched her. And then for her 100th birthday, to have this book that she had written when she was much younger be republished at an academic institution. And that's what I wanted, because I wanted this. I wanted her work to have its place in letters. It's standing in letters. So it wasn't enough to just have a publisher create a nice little, you know, book that you put on the coffee table, little art book that meant nothing to me. I wanted this book to have its place in standing in letters. And we find out now that Yale University has copies of her stuff. And we found in University of Wisconsin an original copy of Hawke. The work is there. Wow.

[Host/Interviewer (likely a female interviewer familiar with theater and TV)]

Thank you for that. This TV movie, if I can technically have to call it that, but it's really a miracle. This movie. I taped it on vhs, was on tv, commercials and all, obviously sight unseen. But it was in our spirit to record it on television because we didn't have TiVo or any of that kind of stuff. We recorded it and then we put a little white label on it. And in my, like, I don't know, seven year old handwriting, I wrote the words poly. And we still have that VHS tape. It's like for the archives. I watched that movie more times than I can count. I'm GRATEFUL it's on YouTube now, so anyone can visit it whenever they like. And people know that we just recently made an announcement that myself and Debbie Allen are working to bring Polly to Broadway. What did you think that movie was going to be when Debbie talked to you about it or pitched it to you? I assume she kind of came to you one day and said she wanted you to do it. But I'm just curious what that conversation was like.

[Phylicia Rashad]

I thought, this is amazing because Pollyanna, when we were children and this film came out, Hayley Mills, we couldn't even see, was a time of legal segregation and it was being shown in theaters downtown and we weren't invited to those theaters. So you could read a comic book about it and you could do that. And you'd have to wait for whenever it came to, let's say, the Dowling Theater or what was the. The Park Theater, you'd have to wait and that might be a long time coming. So we knew what it was about. You know, finally we did see it. We knew what it was about. But when Debbie came and I knew that Harold Wheeler would be writing orchestrations. Harold Wheeler, that famous orchestrator, the Wiz, Dreamgirls, Lena Horne, Little Me, Sideshow, I mean, you name it. He's, he's. He's legend. And a dear friend. And a dear friend. I knew it was going to be great because Debbie wasn't just going to direct it, she didn't choreograph it too. Come on, child, there's going to be some dancing up here. And my. I was just excited about it. And Keisha Knight Pulliam.

[Host/Interviewer (likely a female interviewer familiar with theater and TV)]

Yes. Who was amazing as Young Polly.

[Phylicia Rashad]

Young Polly. You know, we were still working in the Cosby show, and Deborah pitched this thing because Deborah's got a real sense of what works. Well, she does. And she went in there and she pitched that thing to the executives, and they said, yes, in a heartbeat. And I thought, this is going to be fun. And it was. And the only, only, only thing that I didn't like about Polly.

[Host/Interviewer (likely a female interviewer familiar with theater and TV)]

Tell it.

[Phylicia Rashad]

So during the great church scene, you know that church scene. Stand up, stand up.

[Host/Interviewer (likely a female interviewer familiar with theater and TV)]

Come on.

[Phylicia Rashad]

Iconic Aunt Polly, with that stick up her behind, got up and walked out of the church. You know, I wanted to be in the scene. I wanted to see it. I wanted to see the dancing. Those children were twirling and going all around the church. Music was flying everywhere. It was exciting, and I wanted to be in it. So Deborah said, no, you have to leave. Okay, I'm going to leave. But I thought, okay, I'm going to leave, but I'm going, I'm going to. I'm going to sneak and see it. Here I am trying to peek through the door and see it, and the camera catches me. She said, felicia, I'm going. That was the only thing that I didn't like was not being able to be in that church in that scene, because it was on fire the whole day. Those children were in there dancing and singing and carrying on for the Lord. And I was out there with a stick up my.

[Host/Interviewer (likely a female interviewer familiar with theater and TV)]

Have that stick there for the majority of the film.

[Phylicia Rashad]

I know.

[Host/Interviewer (likely a female interviewer familiar with theater and TV)]

Yes, you, you degradation. I know you telling the pastor what to say. I'd love to talk to you about wardrobe. How did that help you find adult poly? The wardrobe that you're wearing in the film? Because it is stunning, everything you're wearing. And it also, I think, speaks to the type of woman that she is. And I just wondered if that helped you find her when you put on those elegant clothes and the hats. And I know there's a moment where you take your hair down, but we really don't get to see that side of you. So did the wardrobe help you find her?

[Phylicia Rashad]

Absolutely. The wardrobe was wardrobe from 1950s. And the way those dresses were constructed, you. You held yourself in a certain way. You know, I didn't have to wear a corset and a bustle like I do with gilded age, but the way that the bodice is constructed, the way the thing is constructed, it makes you hold yourself in a certain way. And you look back on photographs of women, our women, so beautiful in the 50s. Our women are so beautiful. You know, there's that little string of pearls. Even when you go into the grocery store, there was a certain kind of elegance, even the most. How can I say it? Modest, economically modest women wore. It was a. It was a trademark of womanhood. Yeah.

[Host/Interviewer (likely a female interviewer familiar with theater and TV)]

When did you start to understand the impact that that movie had or was having? Because for so many of us, it really is this cherished gem from our childhoods. And I'm wondering when you started to feel that and when people started to communicate it to you.

[Phylicia Rashad]

When someone like you says, I watched it over and over again as a kid. When someone like you says, oh, when I saw that, it made me feel like I could do this. It made me know that I had this.

[Host/Interviewer (likely a female interviewer familiar with theater and TV)]

We're also grateful to you for that role and having to have you stick up your butt. You know, we get it, but you do it so beautifully, and you carry so much elegance. This next credit, I want to talk to you about. I got to see it in the movie theater, and I'm really grateful I did, and I watched it many times, but in revisiting it for this conversation, I really felt emotional because I saw it in the movie theater with my grandmother, who did migrate from the south to Chicago. And this movie is called Once Upon a Time When We Were Colored. And I'm thinking back and sitting there with my grandmother, who must have been feeling all kinds of things when watching that movie. What did you want to bring to Ma Punk? Who did you want her to be?

[Phylicia Rashad]

Ma Punk is an homage to my great Aunt Fanny and my grandmothers, Mama Goldie and Mama Bessie, and the women of that generation who nurtured and cared for family and community. Those women who were very simple, very, very simple women, but who knew how to love. Yeah.

[Host/Interviewer (likely a female interviewer familiar with theater and TV)]

You know, when I was revisiting that film and a lot of the films we're going to talk about, there's a theme about dreams in your work, and a lot of people were leaving the south to pursue a different type of dream. And what's beautiful about the character is that she could have. She maybe could have left, but decided to stay back. And then the one night she decides to, you know, step out of her comfort zone. She lose. There's a. I want people to go watch the film. You can find it on YouTube. So I don't want to give it away, but something devastating happens in her family. And how. How did. What were you trying to bring to that performance? That sort of, I think, a bit of a quiet pride, but also a sadness that sort of lives in her. What was your approach?

[Phylicia Rashad]

Well, once again, I thought about Mama Goldie and Mama Bessie.

[Host/Interviewer (likely a female interviewer familiar with theater and TV)]

What was it like working with. You were directed by Tim Reed.

[Phylicia Rashad]

Oh, that was, that was wonderful. And the first scene that I filmed was the scene in which the young lady is giving birth in the, in the cotton patch with. Well, I want you to know, we're out there filming and all of a sudden, okay, there's a tornado watch. Everybody get into your trailers and if it gets really bad, come out of your trailer and get down in the ditch. Uh huh.

[Host/Interviewer (likely a female interviewer familiar with theater and TV)]

Wow. Seem like nervousness and tension and we.

[Phylicia Rashad]

Were, I'm telling you. And we were, we were filming in the summertime. Well, if you know anything about cotton, you know that the cotton is not on the, it's not on the stem in the summertime. It's like getting towards the. Getting a little bit. Well, that's not quite right. The point is, is that they didn't have a cotton field for us to be in. So they had spent all night long gluing cotton to these stems and the.

[Host/Interviewer (likely a female interviewer familiar with theater and TV)]

Stone came.

[Phylicia Rashad]

And, and vanquished all the cotton. So they had to go out there and put it back together again real quick after the storm. And we just made it happen. And while the young woman was there lying on the ground giving birth. That was Karen Malini.

[Host/Interviewer (likely a female interviewer familiar with theater and TV)]

Yes.

[Phylicia Rashad]

Played that role beautifully. Sweet, sweet, sweet. There were red ants eating that child alive. Oh, we had those that we had what they call no sims. You can't even see these bugs, but they are eating you alive. We were out there working in that.

[Host/Interviewer (likely a female interviewer familiar with theater and TV)]

And.

[Phylicia Rashad]

I just thought what grace, it. It was to be in this film because truthfully, when I read the script, I said to myself, if I don't get to do this, I'm quitting. If I don't get to do this story, if I don't get to be in this film, I'm quitting. And my agents didn't want me to be in it because, well, they thought there wasn't enough money because there wasn't a lot of money. And I said, this has nothing to do with money. This has to do with heritage and legacy. And if I can't do this, I don't want to do anything.

[Host/Interviewer (likely a female interviewer familiar with theater and TV)]

I mean, yes, please. See, it's interesting because you were getting on me about you pulled from your actual family members, but I'm sure you were also thinking about all of our family members, you know, all of our ancestors. And as I was watching it, I just kept thinking about the burden, the weight that you had to carry and you all the actors, the entire cast. It's a beautiful cast to make sure you did honor those ancestors, those people that made it so we could be living out our dreams. I also wanted to know what it was like working with Richard Rountree. Shaft, who is so opposite of that in the movie.

[Phylicia Rashad]

Who is so opposite of that in.

[Host/Interviewer (likely a female interviewer familiar with theater and TV)]

The movie, but still proud. Amazing black man.

[Phylicia Rashad]

Listen, one of the most memorable evenings on that set was Richard Roundtree, Taj Mahal. I'm trying to think of who else was there. Oh, Al Freeman, Jr. These legendary men, they were sitting around at sunset, just talking on the steps of this little storefront church where we filmed our church scenes. But I sat there at a distance, looking at them, watching them in wardrobe, all of us in wardrobe out here in the. Out here in the sticks, out here in the country. And I relished that because. Because that's how. That's how my people lived. That's how we lived. At sunset, you gather and you talk and, you know. And it wasn't. There was an ease to it. It was an elegance to it. And I loved and cherished those moments. How many times has this happened today? When do you see this in New York City? How does this happen today when people come together and you see men gathering together at sunset, sitting together, just talking like that, easefully like that? It was so beautiful to me.

[Host/Interviewer (likely a female interviewer familiar with theater and TV)]

I mean, looking at that cast is so stunning. Isaac Hayes is also so amazing, who plays the pastor and Leon plays your son. Those scenes were so tender and so beautiful. I think one of my favorite scenes is when he asks her to leave with him to go to Detroit, and she says no. And I think it's because of that responsibility you speak of, and those ancestors of your own that you speak of that stayed back and sort of sacrificed their own dreams to take care of family.

[Phylicia Rashad]

That was the dream. Family was the dream. You have to remember, you're talking about people who were, what, one and a half generations removed from a time when family was what a luxury to people who look like us. Family. You couldn't have family. I can't imagine. I can't imagine one of my children being taken from me like that. I can't imagine that. And as a child, I used to read. I used to read about Harriet Tubman a lot. She was my childhood hero. Oh, I loved Ms. Harriet Tubman. I read about what she was like as a child when she got hit with that brick and how she would see and hear things after that. And she was so in tune. And I wondered at her courage and at her love. And John Biggers had. Had painted a mural on a wall. YWCA on McGowan Street. And as A little girl. When my mother would go there on Thursday evenings to have her meetings with a book club, I would sit in front of this mural and stare at it. It's called Tribute to the Negro Woman. Harriet Tubman is depicted with a torch in one hand, the flame reaching back over hundreds of people behind her. And she's got a rifle in one hand, but on this arm where she has the rifle, there is a man who slung over her shoulder, and she is carrying him forward. And I grew up looking at that. And it was a powerful image, and it was joyful. And I never felt a burden. I never felt weight in it. Oh, yes, there is that weight of the legacy of bondage, definitely that. Even this morning, I. Sometimes these things will cross my mind. I wonder how people could do certain things that people do to others and call themselves human. I don't understand it. I've never understood it. I don't think I ever will. But there was something about being part of people who come through that and who emerged through that with dignity and with love and with a hope for the future and family is that hope. And it still is. A lot of people seem to think it's something else, but no, our. Our people. And this is for everybody in the whole world, our young people. This is our greatest. This is our greatest gift. This is our greatest asset, because this is how humanity moves forward and the ways in which we consciously develop them determines a lot for humanity.

[Host/Interviewer (likely a female interviewer familiar with theater and TV)]

This next film I've seen many times, and I was really honored to revisit it again for this conversation. It's a movie called the Old Settler, and I also encourage everyone to check it out. It's also. It can be found on YouTube. Directed by Debbie Allen. Again, this movie is very. It's haunting, I think, for me. And I have a sister. I'm the youngest. I have an older sister. And the relationship between Elizabeth, who you play, and Quilly, played by Debbie, It's a very complicated relationship between these sisters, Very strained. And I'm just curious what the conversations were like between you and Debbie as you were filming or before you were filming some of these scenes? Just the weight of them and the heaviness that comes with these two particular sisters. What were those conversations like on set or maybe before you guys got to set, to step into these characters and to step into those heavy conversations?

[Phylicia Rashad]

We were always joking around.

[Host/Interviewer (likely a female interviewer familiar with theater and TV)]

You kind of have to. On that one.

[Phylicia Rashad]

You. You do. You do. The thing about those sisters is that they love each other. I mean, they love each other. And then those are individual things that happen with people as they grow. You know, Elizabeth having a. A love that she treasured and her sister going off with him, you know, but then not understanding what happened. Not understanding what happened between her sister and that man and not finding that out until much later, but carrying that. Not only a resentment for what happened, but a feeling of being less than a woman. A feeling of being less than attractive and less than desirable. And not even wanting to explore that because it was so painful. She locked herself away in another kind of life. And when the sisters come back together, they're constantly going at each other tit for tat about nonsense that means absolutely nothing. The woman who died, who had too much red lipstick on while she was in the coffin. It was that red lipstick that killed her. You know, talking silly, stupid stuff. And. And then Elizabeth finds hope in a young man who is coming up to be in New York.

[Host/Interviewer (likely a female interviewer familiar with theater and TV)]

Husband.

[Phylicia Rashad]

And that's his name. Husband. And Quill is making fun all the time. And Elizabeth doesn't really mean to be. Quill become attracted to this man. He's actually coming up here to be with some other young woman who's running around up in Harlem. All through Bessie, you see, it's true. And there's quite an age difference, but somehow that happens between them. And all of a sudden she's. She's young again. And she's wearing her hair differently and she's. You know, she's been touched. I'm just saying what to do.

[Host/Interviewer (likely a female interviewer familiar with theater and TV)]

Love that actor Bumper. Yes.

[Phylicia Rashad]

He was so cute. It was. You know. But then comes that. That twist. That twist in which she waits and waits and waits and waits and waits. And he's young, you know, it's humans. It's. It's a human story as people and. And what that does for her, to her.

[Host/Interviewer (likely a female interviewer familiar with theater and TV)]

You know, as you mentioned that about her waiting. It's a tough sequence to watch. How tough was it to play?

[Phylicia Rashad]

Yeah. So, okay, here comes the difference between stage and filming. If I were on stage playing that scene, you would see an actor on stage. And you might see through a window, light changing. But I would be going through that continuously. Right. But in filming, depending on the director's choice, because film is the director's medium. Yes. You might have to be walking over. Crave cables, all kinds of things that have nothing to do with what you feel.

[Host/Interviewer (likely a female interviewer familiar with theater and TV)]

And.

[Phylicia Rashad]

But you have to hold that feeling in spite of that and find your way through that and navigate through things that have nothing to do with what's going on inside you. For the art of filmmaking. So you learn and you grow. Yeah.

[Host/Interviewer (likely a female interviewer familiar with theater and TV)]

Obviously, you've been directed by Debbie before, but this time was a little different because Debbie is playing a very significant role in doing some heavy lifting, herself in the film as well. How was that experience different? Because she was on screen, you know, and Polly, she's able to just. Just wear one hat. But I was curious about that, watching this film, because it is so seamless. But how was it, you know, she's directing and then obviously, in these very intense and heavy scenes, with you.

[Phylicia Rashad]

Collaboration and cooperation. It's that simple. And respect. I have tremendous respect for my sister. As my sister. Yes. As a woman. Yes. And as a professional, as a director, because she is very accomplished. And she never stopped growing.

[Host/Interviewer (likely a female interviewer familiar with theater and TV)]

Yes. Yes, please, Ms. Debbie Allen. I also couldn't help but think, because I watched, you know, these things next to each other, watching Once Upon a Time When We Were Colored, and then looking at the Old Settler again. I thought it was just so fascinating about the fact that Elizabeth and both of these sisters actually made the trip. They left home, and it was sort of saying something about how even they're living in Harlem, you know, together. It sort of said something about even when you leave the south, you sort of trade sort of one set of darkness for another in a way, because there. There did seem to be a loneliness that Elizabeth lives with. And I'm. I was wondering if that was because she had left home or because there were some things, in your opinion, that the character was still maybe working through or sort of hadn't experienced yet.

[Phylicia Rashad]

The latter. She left home and she left home alone. She left home alone and she stayed alone. Yes, she was a member of a church, and yes, she was active in her church, but in her very personal life and in a very personal time, she was very much alone. And she was alone because she was afraid. She could not endure that hurt again. Now, these are things that are not written on the page. This is part of an actor's work. You see what's on the page. And if you really allow it, really allow it to happen, it's not the same as making up a story. It's allowing yourself to sit with this and have it unfold within you, have it unfold within your understanding. This is. This is spontaneity, and this is inspiration. This is inspired work. This is how I like to do.

[Host/Interviewer (likely a female interviewer familiar with theater and TV)]

Are you writing things down, or is that just sort of coming to you?

[Phylicia Rashad]

It's coming to me, and sometimes I do write it down. Often I write it down. You know, I'll just write an impression. I don't try to make a manuscript. I'll just write an impression and. And I'll come back and review that at some point. But I keep moving through it because just as surely as I allow myself to sit with it. And words. Words are so important. The Old Settler began as a play. John Henry Redwood wrote this play. And I was working with John Henry Redwood in a production of Blues for an Alabama Sky. That's how we met. And he was telling me about this play, and I saw it and read it and optioned it, and then I took it to Debbie, and Debbie was presenting three works, and this was one of them, and this was the one they wanted. And then the question was asked, well, could we. Could we make this more modern? I said, no, you cannot. Well, well, you know, if we did. No, you cannot. No, we're not doing that. This is part of the power of this story is that it's happening in this place, with these people, in this time.

[Host/Interviewer (likely a female interviewer familiar with theater and TV)]

I mean, it's such the period is so much a part of it. Everything from, you know, husband changing his net, wanting to change his name, that sort of assimilation to the north and sort of like, being made fun of, like how he wears his hair, the clothes that he's wearing, the times, even that term, the Old Settler, almost sort of seen as a derogatory term. Yes. I'm so grateful that you fought for that, because I feel very much that you are continuing to speak to the ancestors dreams both lived and deferred with this film, even though. Yes. And you can. Yes, you can feel it to play. But I'm so grateful that it was presented in this way so that, I mean, selfishly, I could watch it and see it and learn from it.

[Phylicia Rashad]

As people, we have lived through. As a people, we have lived through time. So, I mean, you know, don't misrepresent that. We are and have been and will continue to be. But let's not misrepresent that.

[Host/Interviewer (likely a female interviewer familiar with theater and TV)]

I wanted to ask you something about the end of the film because, yes, we see the heartbreak of the moment when husband doesn't come to get her to go back to Frogmore. Is it. There's a moment when Quilly comes to comfort Elizabeth and she, you know, tries to sing to her and get her to sing back and sort of bring her back a little bit. I was curious just to ask you, how much of that do you think is her, Quilly wanting to be there for Elizabeth emotionally? And how much of it is her sort of secretly grateful that her sister is not going to have the happiness that she never got.

[Phylicia Rashad]

Isn't it interesting a mixture of both? Because life is never just one way or the other. That's the mistake that we make as people, sometimes trying to make it be one way or the other. Life ain't no one way or the other. Life is spherical. So as human beings, our emotions are really quite complex, you know? Yeah, she loved her sister. And, no, she didn't like seeing her in that state of emotional devastation. But she didn't want to be alone either. And now she wouldn't be alone. So this is how. I mean, it might just be me.

[Host/Interviewer (likely a female interviewer familiar with theater and TV)]

We want to know what you. I want to know what you think.

[Phylicia Rashad]

Yeah, this. This how I think as an artist in approaching work. If I just choose one quality, that's one quality. But a crayon box has a lot of colors in it, and human emotion has a lot of colors and a lot of levels and a lot of textures in it. And it's much more interesting for me to explore that than it is for me to determine one single thing and play that to the hilt. That means absolutely nothing to me because that's not who a human being is. Even when we find ourselves justifying our actions. Just think about your own self. You find yourself justifying an action that you've taken. Might there be something else beneath that, behind that, that thinks, yeah, but. Or, yeah, but what if. Or yeah, and.

[Host/Interviewer (likely a female interviewer familiar with theater and TV)]

I hear that. I receive it. Such a powerful, powerful film. I'm really grateful that you all made that. I stuck to your guns. Now on to something timeless, enduring, and a piece of work that we're all grateful to. The great Lorraine Hansberry for writing or raising in the Sun? Yeah, you did both here. You performed it on stage. And you won a Tony for that, correct? Yes. Just gonna acknowledge that. And you also did the film version as well. So technically, I'm talking about the film version because that's what I revisited. I didn't have the honor and the privilege of seeing you on stage, but I would like to ask, was there. You just talked about stage versus film, But I am curious, I think, because you obviously had the opportunity to embody Lena Younger for so many performances, so many nights, when it came time to film it and to really immortalize it, that is the performance that we will always have. Was there something you wanted to make sure you brought to celluloid, if you will, that you wanted to make sure you brought over from what you were doing on stage for those of us that didn't get to see you there. What were some of those things that you wanted to make sure you still had with you in your spirit when playing that iconic matriarch on film?

[Phylicia Rashad]

Lena's dignity and her pride in being of five generations of people that she could look back to who endured every manner of insult and indignation, but who never sold themselves out. Okay, so this became. This became something in addition to performance. I walked on set and these well meaning crew people and designers. It was the nastiest kitchen sink I'd ever seen. Oh, no, child, it was dreadful. That apartment, the way they had that thing looking. I looked around that set, I said, I don't think we can do this like this.

[Host/Interviewer (likely a female interviewer familiar with theater and TV)]

Said Mr. Leon.

[Phylicia Rashad]

That's Ms. Leon. I did, I said, I said, why is this, why is this sink filthy like this? And then I looked at the, I looked at that designer, I said, let me tell you something about people.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

And.

[Phylicia Rashad]

Let me tell you something about my people. Cleanliness. Cleanliness. I said, it doesn't matter that her furniture is old. It doesn't matter that she's got a piece from this person she worked with and piece from another. This stuff is polished and it is clean. Don't you see what the playwright has written where she's got this child vacuuming the floor and cleaning up and saying, how dare you invite somebody over here with this house looking like that? And I said, there is honor and pride in people and this sink is saying something different. So I think we're going to fix this. Right? And they did.

[Host/Interviewer (likely a female interviewer familiar with theater and TV)]

Yeah. Another play, I think, beautifully dealing with dreams and dreams deferred and different types of dreams. There's something that I sort of picked up on in terms of the different women in the play, in the film, the generational differences that happen. Obviously you have Beneatha, you have Ruth, who are women that Walter Lee sort of complains about not really building up a man in the way that he thinks they should. But when it comes to Lena Younger, she treats him very differently and also her grandson very differently. And I mean, you could disagree with me, but I think there's also a level of sort of coddling and sort of really caring for them in a different way or being softer or more gentle with him and also his son. I'm curious if you could speak to the way the different generations of women in this one particular house are expressing themselves in their lives, but also in how they interact with the men in the house. There's a young man, but also particularly Walter Lee.

[Phylicia Rashad]

This is a very good question.

[Host/Interviewer (likely a female interviewer familiar with theater and TV)]

I can Go to. I can go. I can go.

[Phylicia Rashad]

Very good question.

[Host/Interviewer (likely a female interviewer familiar with theater and TV)]

I'm done.

[Phylicia Rashad]

I like this. One of the things that Kenny Leon pointed out to us, and I'd never had a director night before, I had performed A Raisin in the Sun. I performed the role of Ruth in a couple of previous productions at Howard University. Yes.

[Host/Interviewer (likely a female interviewer familiar with theater and TV)]

Oh, come on now. You know.

[Phylicia Rashad]

And at the McBurney Y, under the direction of Chanel Perry, who was Lorraine Hansberry's cousin, by the way. But Kenny picked up on something that hadn't been expressed before, and that this, that is that in Raisin in the sun, the play itself, there are three love stories, and it really is about three love stories. There's the love that Lena had for her husband. There's the love between Walter Lee and Ruth. And there is this blooming love with Asagai and Benita. Right. You. If you don't look at the love, you're gonna miss the whole point of everything. So Lena comes from a time. If you look at when this play was written, it was written in 1959. No. Yeah, 1959. And Lena is described as being. Let me get this right. No.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Yes.

[Phylicia Rashad]

1959. Elena is described by the playwright as being 55 years old. That means that she was born in 1904. Now, when you go back to 1904, this is a generation removed from bondage, from slavery. Yes. She grew up around people who could reach back and touch that. She grew up listening to people who could reach back and touch that. Her years, her formative years were at the feet of people who could reach back and touch that. And she was living in this farming community in Mississippi. Now, you got to think about that for a minute, what that looked like. So once again, I go back to my Mama Goldie and I go back to my Great Aunt Fanny because my father was one of 10 children born to his parents. His father was a fireman on the South Pacific Railroad and his mother, I don't. Mama Goldie didn't graduate from high school, but she gave birth to 10 children. And she gave birth to most of her children on that farm that I used to visit all the time as a child. So when I think about Lena Younger, what I thought about was I thought about the smell of that kitchen and the wood burning stove. I thought about what it was like to walk out to the pump with a bucket to get water and bring it inside and set it on the table so that you had the ladle there that you could always get that cool drink. I thought about what it was like in the evening to take water. And Fanny would take water and put it in a kettle and she'd heat that water up. And then in a washtub, she would pour hot water and she'd pour cold water. And that's where we as children would take our baths. I thought about that, and I loved that time as a child, running free with cats and dogs and picking tomatoes and growing okra and green beans. This was the wonder of life for me as a child to see that. So here, once again, is an opportunity for me to pay homage to these women who nurtured my parents, women that I was privileged to know and grow up under. I know what it's like to stand over that stove and cook because I watched them do it. And I tasted the food, and there's very little food today that tastes like that. Did an homage to these women who loved so deeply. Big Walter. Think about this as a man growing up in this same time, probably born in 1904 or before, what his education was not, which is why he wanted it for his children, which is why it was so important for him to take his children out of Mississippi and move to Chicago. This is not written in the thing, except to say that he says, seems like God didn't give the black man nothing but dreams, but he did give him children to make them dreams seem worth while. That's love. You gotta look for love, you know, because it's this love that has brought us through. It is not anger, it is not rancor. It's not a balled up fist punching at the air. It's love that has brought us through and that will see us through even this time. So I approached. I approached Lena Younger with my Aunt Fannie in mind, because my Aunt Fanny could grow things, and my Aunt Fanny could go out and she could pick herbs that would heal things. She knew how to do that. And I approached Lena Younger with that understanding because she would have known that even though that's not written on this page, she would have known that because she grew up in this place, in this time with these people. And that's who she is. Not some hard piece of furniture with a wig on it. Not some angry black woman carrying the weight of the world on her shoulders.

[Host/Interviewer (likely a female interviewer familiar with theater and TV)]

No.

[Phylicia Rashad]

She is a woman who is full of love. And yes, she misses her husband. And yes, when that check comes, she breaks down, because that's all his life was worth. This is what my Walter Lee was worth. Somebody's idea of what my Walter Lee was worth. She watched him break his body down, working for his family, doing everything he could to provide money for beneath her to go to school. School, Walter Lee. You talk about coddling. Walter Lee didn't have that. Nobody was pushing him to go to school. There he was chauffeuring. But Walter Lee had imagination, and he did have dreams and he did have desires, and people around him couldn't understand it because he didn't have a portfolio in his hand and he didn't have a, you know, a satchel and he didn't have these papers to lay and all that. But he. He had longing to improve life for his family. And he was driving people around all day long, and he listened to them talk about business deals and stuff. And he said, and mama, some of them ain't no older than me. But the people around him didn't see that in him. And when Lena finally sees it, it's almost too late. When you think about when that happens in the play, and she says, I want you to take this money and put some of it aside for Beneatha and the rest, I want you to go put it in a bank account and you take care of it. But because Walter Lee has been so contained, he don't know how to read somebody, not being as honest as he is. See, that's the thing. He couldn't imagine somebody doing what was done with that money because if somebody had given it to him, he'd have done what they'd asked him to do because he was reared that way. He couldn't imagine that because he was grown up in such a contained way, and she didn't even realize that about him. So when the money is gone and it's all smashed except for the down payment that she put on that house, and that man is coming there to tell him, listen, sign this paper, I'll give it back to you. Plus, some just don't move in the neighborhood. And he's ready to do that.

[Host/Interviewer (likely a female interviewer familiar with theater and TV)]

That's.

[Phylicia Rashad]

No, no, no, no. It doesn't matter how poor we are. We have dignity and we have honor and we have respect for ourselves and the ones who have come before. And this is what you're going to do. Okay, so you make your son understand this, because this is what you're giving him. That takes tremendous love to do that. And she is. She is betting on his spirit. She is betting on something inside him that she hasn't seen before but that she knows has got to be there because he can't be that different from his father. Do you see? That's. That's complexity of Love. When you, when you find that level, it isn't something that you can say to an audience. This is what I'm doing. That's what I'm showing you. But it's what you carry. And just as surely as you carry it. This is from Hawk, my mama's book. The inner reality creates the outer form.

[Host/Interviewer (likely a female interviewer familiar with theater and TV)]

There's also a line I love in there that says when Lena says her children almost feel like strangers. And I think it speaks to the fact that they did not grow up the way she did. And I was just talking about this with you, about my grandmother, my mother saying we speak different languages and re watching Raising the Sun, which I've seen a million times. I've read it a million times. But then it hits me. Oh, this is nothing new. Generations speaking the same language but not being able to understand each other. And it really. I'm so grateful for Ms. Hansberry's words and her willingness to put that on paper for us, to remind us why we don't always understand each other. I'd love to talk about Creed. What was it like being directed by Ryan Coogler?

[Phylicia Rashad]

He's such a teddy bear.

[Host/Interviewer (likely a female interviewer familiar with theater and TV)]

He really is. He is.

[Phylicia Rashad]

He's a teddy bear. He said his, his eyes are so bright. You know, he's always looking at the subtleties of things. He's never heavy handed, always very subtle. Just kind of giving you a suggestion and moving a thing around. It was wonderful.

[Host/Interviewer (likely a female interviewer familiar with theater and TV)]

Well, I think you're stunning in those movies, but I was. But specifically I revisited the first one because I remember seeing. I went to the premiere of that and it was such a electric evening. And I think it's because, you know, it was really the birth of a new franchise. We could feel that. But I think having you on screen, you being there, just. I think we all knew something special was happening. We all knew that it was to be respected and I think we all felt very held. I'm curious because that you play a woman who is very. Has a certain amount of elegance and success and lives in a certain house and you play that very well. There's something about you that's not a stretch. But stepping into that role, I'm just curious what you wanted her to be because she is someone that was married to this iconic character and she's taking in Michael B. Jordan's character. But you talked about pulling from certain family members and ancestors. I'm wondering, did you do that again or was it also Ms. Vivian Ayers there? Or was it a combination of all of them?

[Phylicia Rashad]

Yeah, kind Of a combination. My mother loves children and she would take everybody's child if she could. Oh, she's the Pied Piper, honey. Yeah. She'd take your child. You gotta watch it. You watch her carefully. But your child will be gone. No, but she, she, she would take great delight in watching children grow. And to the extent that she could, being a part of that and helping to facilitate that, my mama Goldie was like that too. She would love to take her children's children. Oh, don't worry about it. My God, she'll take him. She sure did have him, too. You look up, your child be gone. But this, this Marianne Creed, this was. There was another element here. This was a child she found about after her husband was deceased. Very complicated, very complicated. And this child was. He was about, oh, he was close to 13 years old when she. No, actually he was more like 9 or 10 when she found him. And this is a, this is a part of her husband that is alive. And this child is in a facility.

[Host/Interviewer (likely a female interviewer familiar with theater and TV)]

Like troubled.

[Phylicia Rashad]

I mean, troubled and fighting all the time, just like his father. Fighting all the time. And she by profession was a social worker. She worked, you know, in that capacity. But there was something else. This was part of her husband that was still living. And she could take this part and help shape and mold this part. So maybe he wouldn't fight all the time and wouldn't be injured and leave the same way. Maybe she could do something a little different, you know, and that's what she set out to do. And though you didn't see it, you didn't get to see them through the course of the years. You didn't get to see what happened on a moment to moment basis. This became her child.

[Host/Interviewer (likely a female interviewer familiar with theater and TV)]

No, it's a stunning performance and I think we feel the history between them when obviously it's a quick time jump, but it's a really stunning performance and it was so nice to revisit and see you there. Last but not least, I'm happy I was there on opening night. But this amazing, beautiful, timeless, now Pulitzer Prize winning play purpose.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Well, hi everybody, it's Julia Louis Dreyfus from the Wiser Than Me podcast. And I'm not gonna talk about food waste this time. I'm gonna talk about food resources. All that uneaten food rotting in the landfill. It could be enriching our soil or feeding our chickens because it's still food. And the easiest and frankly, way coolest way to put all its nutrients to work is with the mill food recycler. It looks like an art house garbage can. You can just toss your scraps in it like a garbage can. But it is definitely not a garbage can. I mean, it's true. I'm pretty obsessed with this thing. I even invested in this thing. But I'm not alone. Any mill owner just might corner you at a party and rhapsodize about how it's completely odorless and it's fully automated and how you can keep filling it for weeks. But the clincher is that you can depend on it for years. Mill is a serious machine. Think about a dishwasher, not a toaster. It's built by hand in North America and it's engineered by the guy who did your iPhone. But you have to kind of live with mill to understand all the love. That's why they offer a risk free trial. Go to mil.com wiser for an exclusive offer.

[Host/Interviewer (likely a female interviewer familiar with theater and TV)]

What did you think when you first read it?

[Phylicia Rashad]

I want to do this. I want to do this because this is Steppenwolf Theater and I know there's work ethic here.

[Host/Interviewer (likely a female interviewer familiar with theater and TV)]

I know there's nothing about that.

[Phylicia Rashad]

There's a lot about that. And Alana Arenas, who was going to be in this play playing Morgan. I had worked with Alana in Terrell Alvin McCraney's head of passage. Head of Passage down in at the Public Theater. We did it. And we also did it at the Mark Taper in Los Angeles. I knew I was going to be working with greatness even though I was only presented with 30 pages of script at the time. That was all there was. But I saw it and I said yes. And I had seen Brandon Jacobs Jenkins work. I had seen Octoroon. I had seen Come uppence. I had seen appropriate.

[Host/Interviewer (likely a female interviewer familiar with theater and TV)]

I love appropriate, you know.

[Phylicia Rashad]

And I said, mm. And it's new, you know, because I'm always asking myself how, how creative can I really be? Just how creative could I really be? And what would it be like to work with genius in an emerging play? And the greatest task was having people understand the importance of allowing space for genius to be what it is. You can't tell genius. Give me that. Tomorrow by 3 o'. Clock. That don't work that way. That's not right.

[Host/Interviewer (likely a female interviewer familiar with theater and TV)]

You know, it's interesting. I was grateful to have a conversation with Brandon. I sort of pitched the idea to Deborah Martin Chase, who was a producer on the play. If I could speak to him about how purpose I think is in conversation with a Raisin in the sun. I think obviously it's a very different type of matriarch. But I was curious if you could speak to what Brandon's saying about this particular black family in a house in Chicago and what it is saying, what new thing it's saying about legacy and family and how the generations are still finding it difficult to understand each other.

[Phylicia Rashad]

This is a play in which a young man is remembering a return to home for what was supposed to be a celebration and become something else. He's not interested in staying because as the play unfolds, you learn about him, and you learn that throughout his entire life, he has enjoyed a measure of solitude because he is different. You know how some children can be different, labeled different, without understanding what that is, why that is? And do we really understand the impact of that labeling on a child without understanding what that is and who that is? You think about the great thinkers in the world. You think about George Washington Carver, who woke up every morning and went out at three in the woods to talk to God to find out what his work would be that day. That ain't ordinary. We wouldn't call that normal. That's different. When you think about Albert Einstein or Pythagoras, who would look at a human being and see numbers, not the symbolic numbers, but actual quantity, that's different. And there's nothing wrong with that, except that we don't understand it all the time, so we got to make something of it. And this young man has been through that. But we don't learn all of this until near the end of the play, as things are unfolding, what we see in this family. And he talks about so many things in this play. He talks about natural science. He talks about politics. Yeah, he talks about that. He talks about legacy.

[Host/Interviewer (likely a female interviewer familiar with theater and TV)]

Truth.

[Phylicia Rashad]

He talks about love and friendship. Love. Conventional and unconventional. Mm. And he talks about spirituality, too. And what happens in family is oftentimes we miss one another. We look at each other, but we don't always see each other. We miss one another sometimes. And sometimes we miss ourselves. And that's what this is. Understanding one's purpose, though. Understanding purpose in your life and finding out what that is and living with that. And for that, that's success.

[Host/Interviewer (likely a female interviewer familiar with theater and TV)]

Last question. What is your definition of. Of a phenomenal actress?

[Phylicia Rashad]

Oh, no, a phenomenal actress. Ruby D. Was a phenomenal actress. I saw Ruby Dee on stage in Wedding Band. Phenomenal. She was so focused on what was happening in the scene, she literally disappeared before my eyes in full light because I went where her focus went. That's a phenomenal actress. Someone who can take you there.

[Host/Interviewer (likely a female interviewer familiar with theater and TV)]

Well, I'm grateful to be able to sit here with you in front of these beautiful people and say that you have taken us there so many times. Yes. Yes, yes, yes.

[Phylicia Rashad]

Thank you.

[Host/Interviewer (likely a female interviewer familiar with theater and TV)]

Truly, thank you. You. When I. When I think of you, I was trying to think of what's a word I could use to describe you. And the word that keeps coming to me is forever. Because your presence, your grace, your spirit, it is just eternal. And I'm. I think we're all grateful to be alive while you are making art and directing and acting and existing in the world. Because it's interesting, I think, about the word value and where we place value, and I think sometimes we put our value in what we can give. And I'm just here to say, if you don't do anything else, you still have great value because you're alive. So thank you for living the way that you do. I love you deeply. I loved you before I met you. I was guided by you before I met you. I was mothered by you in a way that I think my own mother wasn't able to mother me. So I think she is grateful to you. Not even knowing you really lift me up and so many of us. So thank you so much for being here and for being yourself.

[Phylicia Rashad]

Thank you, Lena.

[Host/Interviewer (likely a female interviewer familiar with theater and TV)]

Thank you. That's a cut.