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- [00:02]
Interviewer
Lemonade.
- [00:06]
Robert Townsend
And I go over there and, you know, I'm like, hey. Hey, how's it going? You okay in there? And it goes like. And he. And tears are streaming down, and he's like, child, you got it, M.
- [00:23]
Interviewer
Your life is a fucking move.
- [00:27]
Robert Townsend
Like Denzel and I, in between stealing apples at the craft service table because we were trying to save up for diem. Everything I do is God. It is God covering me. And the brother comes over and goes, like, you gonna do this shit? White man got us selling out, brother. I come out and I look at the people in the room, and everybody goes, that's the one. That's the one.
- [00:50]
Interviewer
Legacy. Oh, legacy. Thank you so much.
- [00:56]
Robert Townsend
Thank you for having me.
- [00:57]
Interviewer
I'm so happy to just be talking to you because I'm so grateful for all the work that you have done and continue to do. You know, it's interesting because I think our work kind of feels like us. And your work always feels kind, thoughtful, warm, and I would even say fatherly. I think there's that energy as well, kind of showing us the way, a better way, if you will. And I'm just really grateful for it, for all the work that you've done. And I just like to start these interviews with where I saw the person first. And also, not just that, but also something that's very much like a landmark project for them. So I wanted to start this conversation with A Soldier story.
- [01:49]
Robert Townsend
Okay.
- [01:51]
Interviewer
I rewatched it, and I remember watching it as a young person and not understanding the weight of it, of what I was seeing, but knowing that what I was watching was significant, because I think of the reaction of my mother and my grandmother in the room, their energy watching it again. I'm almost haunted by it because of how important that work is. And you are in it in a very beautiful way, because there's almost an innocence to you in a lot of ways, and also to the character, too. Can you tell me how the role of Corporal Ellis came into your life?
- [02:42]
Robert Townsend
So a Soldier Story holds a special place in my heart. I had seen the play in New York, and with the original cast, Denzel and Adolph Caesar and Larry Riley. The captain was played by Charles Brown, Charlie Brown. When we got word that they were doing a movie, they said they're gonna do a movie of a soldier's play. And so then they started to have auditions in la. But something was different because normally Hollywood would cast it with the usual suspects. So with the usual suspects, is everybody black that's working on tv? Everybody, you know, and they Go like, I don't care. He should be playing that part. Whoever they, you know, it's like, get Sherman Hemsley to play Sergeant Waters. You know, Hollywood would do that, you know, and so you go like, no, it's wrong, it's wrong, it's wrong. And so when we were waiting to audition, there was this black man moving around the room, and there was this energy. And I was like, who's the black dude? And I just remember sitting, you know, next to Denzel. We were all there, you know, coming in to audition, and I was like, I don't know who that dude is. Who is that? Who is that? And then I discovered that his name was Reuben Cannon. And so Ruben Cannon was the casting director for the film. And he kind of was like the whisperer in our ears. Like, okay, when you go in, do this door, so and so, and so. So you go into the room, you meet Norman Jewison. Then I had a call back, and then there's that black guy again. And then I was like, Reuben Cannon. And I was like, the brother's casting this because we had never seen that. Was rare to see a person of color casting the movie. And so they brought me back. When I met with Norman, he kind of. Ruben kind of talked to all of us, say, when you go in and do this, da da, da, da. And he was just kind of guiding us. And I go in, I meet Norman. He. We read the scene, I start doing an improv. He knows I'm doing stand up comedy. And he goes, I like him. Da, da, da, da. And then the next thing you know, all of us, all these actors that we all knew from, you know, knew each other from New York. All of a sudden, we found ourselves in Fort Smith, Arkansas. But it was the extra sauce was Reuben Cannon. And when I talked to Ruben, we were at a conference, Warrenton Hutland's BFF summit. And I saw they were doing panels on the history of the arts and where everybody started. And then I asked Reuben, because I was moderating a discussion. I said, why did you cast the people that you cast for a soldier story? And he says, when I'm casting something, I cast people that are over qualified for the role. He says, that's how I do it. And so when I think about how I became a part of the film, everybody was like David Harris. Everybody was specific, even Howard Rollins. Everybody was perfect for their roles. But all of that leads back to Rubin Cannon.
- [05:48]
Interviewer
Wow. So when you are on that set, is there a weight that you all are carrying? Obviously, some People from the play obviously make it into the movie. But for you, are you just thinking about that responsibility that comes with being in a film that will represent a play that is so important and that many of us won't get a chance to see the play, but we will only live with the movie?
- [06:14]
Robert Townsend
Well, we didn't think of it like that. We knew that it's rare to get really great material. So as young actors, we're reading through the script like, this is good. Oh, my God. Da, da, da, da. And then Norman Jewison, the director, you know, like some people say, can a white director direct, you know, a black movie? And da, da, da, da, da, da. If he has a heart for the material and if he's willing to listen. Because Norman would ask us, is this how you would do it? Is this how you would do it? There's other directors that would go, you're gonna do it like this, you know, and then you go like, okay, you know, shonda quanda niqua, get in here. You know, and you're gonna say to her, you know, and so it would be like that. And you go like, okay, all right. But with Norman, I think we knew the material was special, right? We also knew that he. I called him Santa Claus Eyes because Norman had this little look when he's directing you, and he would, you know, like, you're driving the jeep. And this guy, he's, you know, this is the first time you've seen a black captain. But he had such excitement. I was like, oh, yeah, okay, I could do that. Yeah. But he directed with such a love and sensitivity. So I think we all knew we were working on something really special, and we had to get it right. We kind of like Denzel and I in between stealing apples at the craft service table because we were trying to save our per diem. We would all have moments like Adolf, you know, this is special. There's something different here. And so we would kind of. We had a bond, you know, but it was like, you know, we just knew that we all wanted to be on top of our A game because of the project.
- [08:00]
Interviewer
Well, you know, this takes me to your next credit, which is one that I think is one of the most significant credits that you have, which is your directorial debut, which is Hollywood Shuffle. A lot has been said and written and talked about. It's almost like a folklore type of movie in terms of the credit cards and you and Kenan getting together and figuring it out. You know, what's interesting, a thing I picked up on in terms of A soldier story is that perception of us to others, talking about black people and how we come off and how we appear to others. You also talk about working with a white director, dealing with a very black material. Hollywood Shuffle is tackling so many things at once. Obviously, it's satire, but there's obviously a very serious message and about how black people are perceived, how we're depicted on screen in particular. And you're at the center of it. And so the idea of you directing this movie with no money, you're at the center of it, but you're also taking Hollywood to task. So I'm curious, were you nervous about your first movie, taking Hollywood, holding their feet to the fire a bit?
- [09:19]
Robert Townsend
Well, you know, no. No. We were having so much fun. We just laughed all day. And, you know, Kenan and I, our writers room. Kenan's doing push ups. I got a legal pad and I'm writing down, you know, zombie pimps. And then we gonna do so and so. And Keenan, you know, does seven push ups and then he'll come up with something. His name should be Jheri Curl. Okay, Jheri Curl. And then we would just, you know, so it was just all fun. The thing for me was that I love movies, I love television. So everybody I saw on television, I loved. I didn't watch TV with a prejudice eye. So when you just watch, you just go like, oh, I love Andy Griffith. Ooh, I love, you know, Walter Brennan. So I would see all these characters. So being an actor, when we were doing Hollywood Shuffle, it was kind of like, this is not fair. And so it wasn't like, you know, Hollywood is the problem. We also dealt with the black actors that accept those roles. So we kind of didn't just go, it's the white man. We were like, well, wait a minute, why do we accept these roles? Why don't we all stand together so that, like, the end, Roy Fagan, when he goes, I'll do it, you know. You know. You know, and some of that stuff was really based on, like, Kenan and I had an audition one time for this movie, and there was this brother there who was messing up because we all waiting for the audition, and we're all sitting there together, the young actors, and the brother comes over and goes, like, you gonna do this shit? White man got us selling out, brother. Oh, man. The white man. The white man. The white man. You really gonna do this? Damn. Damn. Willie Johnson. Yes, sir. And then he's the first one to leave out. And then Keaton and I were Sitting there like this. And then he was like, all right, brother, see you. Good luck. And so we were like, wait a minute. My head's messed up. I'm like, I ain't going in and audition for this, you know? And the dude ended up getting the job.
- [11:16]
Interviewer
Wow.
- [11:16]
Robert Townsend
So, you know, so Keenan and I, you know, we didn't look at it like we're making an indictment against Hollywood. We were just like, this shit is really funny. You know, like, people are in there, you know, like, you gotta read the basketball player that Can't Read My Soul. And Mama, she don't know. Would you like to see it a different way? Please. I studied at Harvard. Yeah. I was in the theater department over there. All right, and action. You knows, we be. So you just go like, this is kind of crazy. So it came out of there, just the love. And then, you know, we found it funny. Like, the stuff. The stuff that we went through. Like, they always had a guy at a pool hall that was like, the smartest dude. We'd always have to read Keaton, and we'd say the same thing and be like, the dude you looking for is on the third floor, baby. Yeah, man. You know? And he would always be in a pool hall. I was like, if this dude is so smart, you know, you need some stock tips. Let me tell you about the market, man. You know? And I was like, wait a minute. If this guy is so damn smart, why is he in a pool hall? And he go, the dude you looking for on the third floor, he taking a shit right now. You know? And it's just like, this makes no fricking sense. And so Kenan and I, we just started writing that shit down. Like, I was doing the black acting school that's in Hollywood Shuffle. That was in my standup. I used to do all the characters in the standup because that's, you know, I said, they need to have somebody teach a black acting school, you know? So that's how it came out.
- [12:38]
Interviewer
Well, I mean, and looking at it again, and we've all seen it so many times, it's such a miracle that that was able to happen the way it does, because it's also beautifully shot. I was curious what your relationship was like with your DP on that movie, because you have to trust them so much because of how much you're having to perform.
- [12:58]
Robert Townsend
Well, you know, here's the thing. The DP that I had several DPs, some were not the kindest to me, but then the one, you know, because they were trying to clown me. Sometimes they go like, where's the camera, Robert? Okay, our director. What are you shooting? You know, and they would be kind of, like, disrespectful. But the one guy who really showed me love and really took care of me was Peter Deming. And he's the cinematographer that finished the shoot and did everything. And now he's like, one of the biggest cinematographers in Hollywood. I mean, he's done, you know, all these Austin Powers, he's done in Mulholland Drive, he's worked with. You know, he's amazing. But when you have someone that understands the mission, then he becomes my eyes. So behind that camera, he became my eyes. And so he would look out for me and go like, hey, Robert, you need to. You know, I'm really tight in this close up, so don't wobble, don't move around. Oh, this is gonna be a little looser here. This is what you want, but you can go from here to here. And so he would give me. Because sometimes people say, is it hard writing, you know, directing and acting in a film that you're directing? But it's not hard. It's just making sure that you have the right people that care. Because he's my eye now. So did we get it? We got it. Moving on. You follow what I'm saying?
- [14:16]
Interviewer
So I do, yeah. Can you talk to me about the importance of John Witherspoon?
- [14:24]
Robert Townsend
John Witherspoon, let me say this. There are people that are magical, and they bring their magic. And. And Spoon was this lovable clown. He could do anything, and he didn't mind going like this in Hollywood Shuffle. He's got the shoe to his ear, talking hoecakes. All of that is John Weatherspoon. That is him. And he starts going. And Kenan and I are just laughing our butts off, you know, trying not to break in the take. But John. Bobby, listen to me. Listen to me, Bobby. Whole cakes. See it with me, Bobby. And I'm just sitting there on the other side of the camera like, this dude is really. Because we're just. We couldn't even afford to get in the restaurant. So the Guy said, For $50, you can be outside the restaurant. So we could only go in and out of the door for $50. And, you know, Spoon was selling it, you know, but you talk about, you know, just, here's the thing. Casting is 90% of the job. And the thing as a filmmaker, even as my first film, I was smart enough to look at everyone and say, that's his Magic. He's perfect to be do, do, do, do he's perfect to be batty boy, you know, Brad Sanders. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. You know, so, you know, my casting muscles, you know, were really strong, you know, back then and to this day, because you just know when somebody has that extra thing. And John Weatherspoon was just that funny guy, and he could always improvise, come up with stuff.
- [16:00]
Interviewer
Well, I mean, I just. In looking at him in this movie, I couldn't help but think about how he continues to show up in different people's films. And he just seems to be a constant. And I just thought to myself, there he is again, always right there, willing to be a part of someone's dream.
- [16:19]
Robert Townsend
Yes.
- [16:20]
Interviewer
Speaking of dreams, that's because the thing, obviously, Hollywood Shuffle is funny, but it also has a lot of heart, and it's clearly very intentional. There's something that sort of came up for me in watching it about your uncle and your grandmother and their dreams and your character wanting to fulfill your dream almost because, you know that they didn't get to fulfill theirs. Was that. What was that conversation like between you and Kenan and wanting to make sure that. That. That was a part of the film as well?
- [16:51]
Robert Townsend
Well, Kenan's mother and her. His aunts sang at the Apollo. So when we were writing that, I just remember we shared, like, so many people that, for some reason, didn't get to live their dreams. And how do you. It's kind of like my grandmother was a hater, but she was looking out for me. But she didn't know, because she used to say to me, she says, you gonna be in show business? You don't know nobody in show business. What do you know about show business? How do you know you're good? How do you know? She wanted me to work at the post office because everybody was working at the post office, was making good money, and I could have been a supervisor at the post office. And I had to sit at that table and listen to her. And I never shared my dreams. I was just like, no, because I know she loved me. But it was like, you could get a job. You could be a supervisor, like Mr. Griffin, and he could get you a job down there. And I was like, no, I want to be an actor. And it's like, but you don't know nothing. And then I would have to eat. And I just remember, like, because she would cook. My mother was at work. My mother got a job at the post office, and I would be eating my food, and I had A mantra going, yes, I can. And what she said went through this ear and went out that ear. Yes, I can. I will make it. I will make it. I'm not gonna disrespect her. I will make it. And it just be kind of like this because there's so many people that I run into, a lot of talented people, and there's so many people that they have the gift, but then they're afraid, and it's like, oh, man, it's okay. Go, go. And so a lot of my friends in Chicago that I started out with, a lot of them, you know, they never stepped out because they were afraid. And I think, you know, part of the dance is being fearless. So I think my grandmother, I think the uncle in the story, you know, at a certain point, they have a dream and then they go, it's not possible. And I think all things are possible. I think, like, right now, there's certain actors that I see that are really good. And at a certain age, certain people check out. I refuse to check out, where they go like, well, you know, I'm 41. I can't do it no more. I'm 41. You know? And you go like, you're 41. What does that mean? It's like, well, you know, I'll be 27 next week. And there's young kids like that. And I'm like, going, you know, I was. You're supposed to be famous by 21, Robert. I should have made it by now. That's why I'm at McDonald's, you know, it's like, no, if you really want it, it's yours. You know what I mean? And there's certain people that are hustlers that just, ah, will not be denied. And it's like, for me, we put that in the movie because there's a lot of people that have checked out, because, like, what people like, they say in this game, if you're an extra, that's all you're ever gonna be. I did extra work for seven years. That's how I learned directing. So I was behind the scenes watching at Mahogany. Mahogany, that was Billy Dee, Diana Ross. And I'm there in the cold. And I don't, you know, And I used to do a lot of voices and impressions, and I just remember being out there in the cold. And then Billy Dee would say, the polls say we're way behind. You know, she goes, I want my old man back. You got your old man back. And I just remember that sound in his voice. And I was like, oh. Because I was at every take, and it was like, you know, the polls say we're way behind, and it's like. And she goes, I want my old man. You got your old man back. You know, it's like that James Earl Jones. I used to watch James Earl sneak in the movies and watch James Earl Jones. And Claudine, you see the daddy got to be the breadwinner and he beat his check. Claudine, pay these chat damn pills.
- [20:43]
Interviewer
Teach me how to hold my liquor. Teach me how to hold my liquor.
- [20:45]
Robert Townsend
Yeah. Oh, what a great movie.
- [20:48]
Interviewer
So good.
- [20:49]
Robert Townsend
So anyway, anywho.
- [20:50]
Interviewer
Well, in Hollywood Shuffle, there's a really great bit about a particular black actor that everybody's looking for and wants, and they want every black actor to be exactly like this actor slash comedian. The Eddie Murphy bit, which is very interesting because of the next credit that I'm gonna speak about, which is Eddie Murphy Raw.
- [21:13]
Robert Townsend
Yes.
- [21:13]
Interviewer
That comedy special, in my opinion, is one of the greatest standup comedy specials of all time. I loved how cinematic it is from the very beginning where we hear am I wrong? A Temptation Song. Up top. We're in 1968, and you're taking us right back to what we realize is Eddie Murphy's childhood. A childhood memory. Whose idea was that? To start with a scripted sketch at the beginning of the special?
- [21:48]
Robert Townsend
That was Kenan and Eddie. They wrote that together. And it was kind of, like, started off with this little, like, that's who Eddie was. He would tell, you know, doo doo jokes and dirty jokes, like, at the family. So that was the skit that they wrote together. And then we had our auditions, and Tatiana Ali is one of the kids.
- [22:11]
Interviewer
Sam Jackson's in there.
- [22:12]
Robert Townsend
Sam Jackson is in there. And that was one of his first movies, you know, and it was just a. You know, it was just a good time, you know? And what's his name? Dion Richmond played the little kid. Thank you, thank you, thank you. He played. And he was Bud on the Cosby Show, AKA Kenny.
- [22:32]
Interviewer
Yes.
- [22:33]
Robert Townsend
So, yeah. No, no, no. That Kenan and Eddie wrote that to open the show. And that Ernest Dickerson, who now is a director on his own. Right. He was our cinematographer.
- [22:43]
Interviewer
Yes. As you had got this very big job to direct this comedy special, especially after coming after Delirious. What did you want it to be as a filmmaker?
- [22:55]
Robert Townsend
I really just wanted to capture Eddie. Like, when people say, how do you direct a comedy special? I mean, I gave. You know, you got Eddie Murphy. I would just give, like, little tweaks, you know, suggestions, because he knows what he's gonna do. And then sometimes I may see something that I go, hey, we can build on that joke. Cause again, I'm a student of comedy. Keen is a student of comedy. Hey, you could be a little bit more physical here or throw that away a little bit. But, you know, Eddie is Eddie. But he, you know, he wanted it to be the best it could be. And it became the all time concert film, highest grossing concert film ever.
- [23:30]
Interviewer
Did he want you to direct that special because of Hollywood Shuffle? Or did you have a friendship prior to that?
- [23:37]
Robert Townsend
So what happens? So this is the true story of what happened. Kenan and I got into a big fight over writing that scene in Hollywood Shuffle. Because Kenan was like, like, I'm like, I'm gonna write this scene, Kenan. Cause Eddie's the biggest star. They want us to be Eddie Murphy Type. 20 guys in blackface laughing like, eddie, it's gonna be funny. Kenan Keenan's like, wow, we can't put that in there, man. We know Eddie, you know, we can't put it in there. And so. And so I'm like, man, I'm directing the film. I'm producing. I'm putting it in there. And so we shoot the film. The film becomes a big hit. We go to Paris. Kenan and I go to Paris to the Deauville Film Festival. And then once we get back, we win two of the prizes. And once we get back, there's a message on my answering machine from Eddie Murphy. And he's like, rob, everybody talking about Hollywood Shuffle. When can I see it? So I'm like, oh. And Kenan was like, right, now you nervous? So we have a screening at Fotokim in Burbank for Eddie and, like, his entourage, you know, Fruity and Ray Ray and everybody. And then they're loving the movie. Then it gets to the part about him. It's like, what we're looking for is an Eddie Murphy type. And then the room is dead. And then I'm like, oh, God. And then Kenan is like. And then I hear one of his bodyguards, Eddie, they just said your name. Eddie, they just said your name. What is this bullshit? And I'm like, oh, Lord, Lord, Lord. And the room is, like, dead. And so I'm like. And then all of a sudden, Eddie starts laughing, and he just starts like, oh, this is wrong. This is messed up. Why y' all do me like that? Why y' all do me like that? Rob Keenan. Ah. And then everybody starts laughing and everything is good. And then after the film was over with. You know, he's in the screening room by himself. And I. And I go over to apologize, you know, and I said, hey, man, if you were offended by that scene in the movie, Kenan wrote it. No, just kidding. No, no, no, no, no, no. I told him. I said, hey, man, I wrote that scene. And he goes, like, no, no, man. What you did was. It's brilliant what you and Kenan did. He says, I'm really impressed. He says, no, this is genius. He says, look, I'm getting ready to do this concert film, and I'm looking for a director.
- [25:57]
Interviewer
Shut up.
- [25:58]
Robert Townsend
You want to direct it? And I was like, yeah. And he goes, it's yours, and it's gon be called Raw.
- [26:05]
Interviewer
Okay?
- [26:06]
Robert Townsend
And that's. And it was like. And I was like, whoa. And then we started to jam.
- [26:10]
Interviewer
I mean, that, to me, is, I think, so mind blowing. Just you, Kenan, Eddie, obviously Ernest Dickerson. Just being around each other and feeding off of each other, I think speaks to why all of this work is still. It continues to endure over time. Thank you. The next project I'm gonna talk about is. This is the first time I've talked about it on this show. And I literally have a tattoo, literally, like five hearts on my arm.
- [26:41]
Robert Townsend
Oh, my God.
- [26:42]
Interviewer
It is that significant, this movie, to me and so many others. I think it's because of your love for this subject matter, your tenacity, your relentlessness, and I think really just your heart. Your heart is in this movie. Talking about Five Heartbeats.
- [27:06]
Robert Townsend
Yes.
- [27:08]
Interviewer
I mean, here's actually where I want to start with the movie, because I know a lot about it. I've read a lot. I've heard stories. But what's most fascinating to me about the movie, when I reference it a lot for people about how the industry sometimes doesn't make sense, is the fact that the movie did not perform well in theaters when it came out.
- [27:29]
Robert Townsend
Right.
- [27:31]
Interviewer
But because of the time, there's vhs. Cable was, like, a thing.
- [27:38]
Robert Townsend
Yes, hbo.
- [27:39]
Interviewer
Yeah. So it was just cable and vhs and. And I'm pretty sure the first time I saw it was on TV and was in a living room, sort of blown away and forever changed. And it's a movie that I would continue to watch again and again. And I think a real sign of success, in my opinion, for a movie, is not box office, but rather rewatchability. What is it about the Five Heartbeats that makes us want to watch it again and again and again and again?
- [28:15]
Robert Townsend
Great question. You know, I think you genuinely feel my love of the Music, my love of the period when I was a kid. The Temptations broke up in 1968. Herb Kent, the cool gent was on WVON and he said, you know, the Temptations are breaking up and there's a new singer coming in. David Ruffin is leaving. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I always stayed in my head because that when you're in the hood, there's only certain things that give you joy. Like we talk about watching a movie again, there's a certain comfort food that comes with that. For me, it was music coming out of Motown, being from Chicago and. And so it was those music. And I was like, why are they. They're the greatest group of all time. So it sent me on this mission to figure out about singing groups. So I think when you watch the Five Heartbeats, I'm like a mad scientist underneath the hood of the car. I want all the pieces to work well. So I am listening to every. I listen to close to a thousand songs to find the right music. And the lyrics. Ain't got no money, da da da Ain't no fancy car don't live the life of a. Okay, that's what they're. That's what Duck is writing. That's what they are. Okay? A heart is a house for love. Okay. Da da da da. We haven't finished yet. Oh, great. Great. That's what Duck is. So I'm listening to music casting. I saw close to 10,000 people because I had to find the right energy and I'm hard headed. So like when they go like, you know, these are the best actors in Hollywood, I go, I gotta see. For me, you say they the best, but I'm gonna go dig a little bit deeper. And the good thing was that Fox, 20th Century Fox agreed to allow me to have three open calls where I saw all these actors. And I discovered the little girl, Tressa. She came to audition. She's number 500 or something. And she sang and then she inspired me. I wrote the song. So I think when you look at the Five Heartbeats, I've put in a lot of extra sauce. Because if you're going to go see my movie in a movie theater, I want to give you value for your money. I want to make sure that I'm not just phoning it in. And so I think for me, when people look at the Five Heartbeats, you see my love of singing groups. Also you see my childhood when we used to go to the Regal Theater on the south side of Chicago, they would have the battle of the Bands. And you would see the Temptations, and then you would see Smokey and the Miracles, and they would perform James Brown. They would tear the house down. And so I was like, I want that energy in the movie. I want that energy. So Bird and the Midnight Falcons Flash and the Ebony Sparks, they are given, you know, show. And then the Five Heartbeats duck behind the piano. Eddie hits the note. You know, those are the Dells. Those are the Stylistics, the Spinners, you know, and they would dance and they would perform. So I think when you're watching the movie. And the other Trojan Horse to the whole movie was back then, a lot of the films, the images of the black men were very negative. And so I said to Kenan, I said, this will be a Trojan horse. We will show you five different black men, and you will understand that we are not just gangsters or pimps or hustlers. They exist. But there's these other people. Choir boys exist. You know, JT does exist. You know, Eddie does exist. But then we plant seeds of. Oh, when you go to Eddie's house, his father. Oh, his father is cursing him. His mother's rooting for him. So that when she does the thing and she stands up, you know, it's like, I hate. So let me say this. When I watch movies, biopics, I hate when the person can't. Doesn't really sing something. And he goes like, I've never heard a voice like that. I have never heard a voice like that. I'm gonna sign you. Exactly. And so I go for the Five Heartbeats to win. They gotta get past Cookie and her girls booing them. They gotta get past the piano player. Clink, clink, clink, clink. And, you know, fights on stage. And then eventually they break through, and then we're on the ride with them. But I take it serious. As I create, I take it serious. I want to entertain the audience. So when people come up, like, it was just. Oh, man, it was just our 34th anniversary on March 29, 2025. And so I posted, you know, some clips from behind the scenes. And, you know, it went, like, viral. People are going crazy over it. But the thing that touched me the most, so many people said, I would watch this with my grandmother, I would watch this with my father, I would watch this with my cousin. They're not here anymore. And that just. Ah. Cause I forget 34 years. There's been a lot of life and death and birth and da, da, da, da. So that was the one thing that when I think about the movie now, so many people that I will never meet, you know, fell in love over the film or bonded or family Thanksgiving memories. So that part, you know, that extra sauce was worth it.
- [33:52]
Interviewer
Yeah. And I think it speaks to why it is comfort for. And so many classic scenes and so many classic moments. But I do want to really commend you for your performance as Duck.
- [34:04]
Robert Townsend
Oh, thank you.
- [34:06]
Interviewer
That's such a very special character. And I think in watching your work and kind of getting to know you a little bit, I'm curious, where does Duck end and you begin?
- [34:19]
Robert Townsend
Where does Duck end and where do I begin? You know, there is a lot of Duck in me. I think Robert Townsend is more of a madman. I'm crazy. For real. My kids be like, y' all have no idea what it's like to be in that man's orbit. I love what I do. I mean, and I will fight, you know, Like. You know, it's so funny because.
- [34:50]
Interviewer
I.
- [34:50]
Robert Townsend
Talk about it in the documentary, but I will fight, you know, the people. He's a nice, lovable guy, Robert Townsend.
- [34:58]
Interviewer
DP of sweat. He's like, okay, I gotta get to somewhere.
- [35:02]
Robert Townsend
Yeah, I gotta get to 20 minutes.
- [35:04]
Interviewer
Hurry up. Quick, before we break for lunch. We asked for Grace eight times exactly.
- [35:07]
Robert Townsend
No, I think that the side of me is that you have to be passionate to be a filmmaker. And I think where Duck is naive on certain levels, you know, it's like, it's because I shared the clips of me behind the scenes directing, and then people go like, wait a minute. He's playing a goofy character, and he's like the guy who can really put it together. And it's kind of like, that's how I'm wired. You know, my brain just thinks I can place everybody in the room, move it around, and then go, action. And be in the scene. And so, you know, I am more driven and crazier, you know, as an artist. Because what people don't understand, too, is that when you say, oh, man, Big Red, I have to be part Big Red to make it believable. Like, I show a clip of me working with Hawthorne on the scene, you know, and pulling it out of him, you know, because I think there's, you know, like, I gotta be a little bit of Eddie. I gotta be a little bit of jt. So for me, Duck is a character that's a little piece of Townsend, but the other is like, it's more. There's more layers.
- [36:17]
Interviewer
You wrote the movie with Kenan as well. But we know. I know, but we'll get to this later. You don't get to the finish line with him because of how long it takes to make the movie. And he has to go off and obviously go do and live in color, but. But he ultimately sees the film and loves it. How tough was that for you in the journey to making the movie, losing some of your soldiers along the way?
- [36:47]
Robert Townsend
You know, it's like when you believe and no one else does. And that's that part where Hollywood goes, no, no, no, no, no. And so when Kenan left to do In Living Color, it's not like we were a comedy team. It's just that we have a bond that is just so strong as artists now. Was it in the plans that we would work together forever? No, no, no, no. I knew he had other ideas. I had other ideas, but it did hurt. It did hurt, because I'm kind of like a dog with a bone. I couldn't let it go. So even when the studio's like, everybody rejected the Five Heartbeats. So it's like, robert, how are you gonna make this funny? I mean, how are the musical numbers gonna work? And I'm like, I don't know. I know how they're gonna work. I know Flash is gonna do this with JT and it's gonna build like this. I remember there was one time we were in the studio, in the recording studio, and I didn't hear the sound that I wanted for the scene in the church with Eddie and Baby Doll, and time was running out, and it was like, got five more minutes, and then we're gonna be in overtime. It's gonna be $10,000. Robert, you got five minutes. We gotta get it. And I go, it's not right. And then, you know, people. I was. I forgot who I was getting into it with. It sounds great. They're professional singers. And everything was like. And it was great. But then I was like, no, something's missing. And so then I go, I. I need one more take. We're going to spend $10,000, Robert. I go, I need one more take. And so I go into the booth with the singers, and I remember. I think I said something like, can you sing it one more time? But this time, when you sing it, can you sing it? Like, God will take your voice away. And they looked at me spooked, like, don't even say that to a professional singer. And they went in there, and then, because all the eyes in the room were on me, I crawled underneath the console, and I just said, turn the speakers up. And I'M near the console here, the engineer's here, and somebody's over here. Because I didn't want all those eyes looking at me, judging me for spending $10,000. And then I hear that sound. I feel like. And then I got goosebumps. And I was like. And then I come out and I look at the people in the room and everybody goes, that's the one. That's the one. And I was like, yeah, okay, thank you, thank you. And I'm like, in this, like. Cause all of a sudden I felt it. But that's that hard. Robert Townsend's very hard headed. Because then they said then for Bruce, that was worth 10,000. It was worth it. I was like, thank you. And then that's what you see in the movie.
- [39:44]
Interviewer
I mean, my question is, how much of that is genius and how much of that is God?
- [39:48]
Robert Townsend
I think it's all God. I get out of the way, man. I just get out of the way. It's like God whispers in my ear and he goes, goes left. It's like when I was like, I don't know. You're from Chicago, I'm from Chicago. There would be certain times I would walk down the street and then God goes, turn now, turn left. Turn now, turn now. And you turn. And on that side over there, the Vice Lords are running down the street with guns. And I'm like, oh, okay. And so you know my life coming out of the hood, you know, I was running from gangs every time. And like, there's a story I've been doing a one man show about my life. I just finished a run in Berkeley. And there's a story that I tell about running into a gang initiation. And I run into the executioners, blue tams leather jackets. And I go between, like, you know how the little narrow thing between the buildings and they're in the backyard of this building. And because I only live like 10 minutes from school, but it would take me 20, 30 minutes to get home because I had to go around the gangs. And so this one day, I run into a gang initiation. The only thing. And there's a guy crying with a gun to his head. And I'm thinking I'm dead. Because the guy with the gun I had beef with. And the guy with the gun, he's like, we got another one. And so I'm like, I am dead. And what happens is the week before when I was playing basketball, I did something really funny and stupid. And that guy saved my life. And you talk about like, so. So it's All God. Because I. Cause the guy. There was two guys. There was another. It was me that ran into it. But there was a guy that was doing the initiation that they had the gun to his head. I don't know what happened to him. But the next week, the whole block smelled like bad bleach. And somebody goes, what is the smell? What is the smell? And somebody said, it's coming from the car. And the police came and they taped off everything. I couldn't see who it was, but it was that other guy from the gang. I thought it was. I don't know, but it was like. Because it was. It smelled like bad bleach. I just remember the whole neighborhood had this smell. And then somebody says, come from the car. But everything I do is God. It is God covering me.
- [42:12]
Interviewer
Clearly. This next credit is clearly God ordained. Here's the thing about this movie. I got to see it in the movie theater when I was very young, and I had never seen anything like it before, and I've never seen anything like it since Meteor Man. Here's a frustrating thing. You can't find it anywhere. A lot of us are not pleased about that. Can you speak to why that is?
- [42:40]
Robert Townsend
I have no. You know, it's so funny because MGM has been sold and bought and sold and bought. And for some reason, it keeps the hands. Keep different hands touch it. So, you know, it's like chasing whoever the person is to say, hey. Because everybody goes, rob, I can't find it. I want to show it to my kids. I want to da da da da da da. So I have no idea. I'm trying to get to the bottom of it, but, you know, it's such.
- [43:09]
Interviewer
A special movie and such an original idea. And also the costumes, the hair, the concept. Where did this idea come from other than God? Because that's the only place an idea like that can come from. But how did you execute it?
- [43:28]
Robert Townsend
Well, you know, as a kid, I used to love Superman and Spider man and all those different shows. And Batman in the 60s with the Riddler. George Floyd. Frank Gorshin was the Riddler. Riddle me this bad. And I used to do the whole TV show. And after I finished the Five Heartbeats, I was like, I want to do something different. I want to touch a whole nother genre. And so then I was like, I want to create my own superhero. Because I saw Batman and Spider man and all the different shows. And I said, rather than like, you know, like, hey, can I be a part of that? You know, I was like, I'll Just create my own. And I said, okay, what are my superpowers? What are this? Who's the bad guy? What are they doing? And I also, again, I always have a Trojan horse. The Trojan horse this time was the community is always complaining about the gangs. What are they doing to help? And so that was the. And the real concept of Meteor man was you don't need superpowers to be a hero. So at the moment in the movie when he loses all his powers and the gang's Media man, and they're outside the window and in that moment, and then, you know, Michael is like, you can't go down there. You don't have the powers. I gotta go down there. You know, that's that real hero stuff. That's when you really become a hero, where you're like, you will risk any and everything for your rights.
- [44:58]
Interviewer
And.
- [44:58]
Robert Townsend
And so. And then all of a sudden, there's one little piece of meteor left, and then the big fight. But when I write, like, when. As I was writing it, I wanted. I grew up on Danny Kaye, and a lot of people don't know who Danny Kaye is, but Danny Kaye was this very funny white actor who would do crazy characters in physical comedy, verbal comedy. He was just very animated, and. And he would do crazy sequences in the movie. And I said, oh, I want to write this sequence where Meteor man has no powers, gets his butt kicked, and then all of a sudden, the meteor rolls in and they both touch it together. And now he has power, and Meteor man has his power back. And it's the big fight of fights. So my brain just thinks very different. And so in that moment, I wanted to create the first African American superhero. And what we discovered, the film didn't do well, because if, you know, black folks want to take their kids to the movies, they only had limited funds. So they're going to take their kids to see the movies they wanted to see, not a kid movie. So I was like, what do you mean? Because there were. If you said, how many kid movies were there for people of color? There's the Whiz and the Whiz and the Wiz. And so there was nothing. And then comes Meteor Man. So, you know. But I think with that, I wanted to make a movie for children, but I wanted to say something about the condition. Because I grew up in the hood with the gangs and the drugs, and so all of that tied back into my childhood.
- [46:38]
Interviewer
Was it ahead of its time or was it a marketing issue?
- [46:42]
Robert Townsend
You know, I think I have lived ahead of my time. We finally caught up to this guy.
- [46:48]
Interviewer
Exactly. When Black Panther came out, you're like, I been.
- [46:50]
Robert Townsend
Did that. You know? So I think that, like, the stuff that's in my brain right now, everything is different. The stuff that I see is always different. And it's like, I have ideas and ideas and ideas. My brain does not. You know, because some people are like, what's the. And then I pitch them. And then sometimes people go like, I don't know how. I love it, but how do you. And it's back to that. Five Heartbeats or Meteor Man. How do you do that? And it's just. I don't know. It's just how I'm wired.
- [47:19]
Interviewer
What does it make you feel when you see Halloween? The costumes? Meteor man tends to pop up or the images that we sometimes see. I mean, people even feel like Kendrick was sort of referencing it when he. The first time we did a halftime.
- [47:31]
Robert Townsend
Show, not the second time. He was the Golden Lords. Yeah. Yeah.
- [47:34]
Interviewer
Like, you know, there's something even for me, like, I wanted to revisit it. I got ticked. Cause I couldn't find it. But it has never left my mind for so many of us. So is that something that's still validating for you, or are you still a little frustrated that people didn't see it at the time and the way in which you wanted them to?
- [47:53]
Robert Townsend
You know, here's the thing. I'm not frustrated by anything. It's like. It's art. So if people. If people seek and find or discuss, it's always a win. I don't believe in negative. So it's kind of like if somebody goes, like, you got to see Meteor Man. You know, there's a discussion or Temptations versus the Five Heartbeats. Five Heartbeats. We're not real. You know what I mean? And so people go like, the Temptations are real. The Temptations. It was just like, you know, the most beautiful thing for me that I went to David Ruffin's funeral. Me and Michael Wright, we flew in and went to David Ruffin's funeral. And there was this usher and the usher at the church. It was Aretha Franklin's father's church. And so when we got there, it was all these people. And then the Usher goes. Five Heartbeats. Duck, Eddie, come with me. I saved y' all seat. And I was like. And the guy was talking to us like he thought we were a real group. He says, y' all ain't been touring lately. Y' all gotta get back on that road, man. You know, I got Y' all next to the Temptations and Rita herself. Come on in. You know. You know, it's like, man, where choir boy at? And he was talking and I was like, he thinks we're really the characters from the movie. He didn't know we were actors, but he saved us seats at the church, you know? And it was just the funniest thing to me because he was like, yeah, man, you know, I'm glad you left that girl, man. I'm glad you left that girl. And I was like, it's a movie and. But he got a great seat. No, it's not.
- [49:20]
Interviewer
Not to him. I just want to ask, where'd the blonde hair come from for Meteor Man? Who thought that up?
- [49:27]
Robert Townsend
You know, I was trying to come up with something that would be a striking look. And I was like. When I was in my think tank creating the film, I was just trying to think of all the villains, all the superpowers. Like in Meteor man, when I was like, okay, everybody flies from the highest point. Meteor man is scared of heights, so when you fight him, he's flying four feet off the ground. I was always thinking of something different. And I said, we've never seen blonde haired, black villains. And that's how the Golden Lords came about.
- [50:01]
Interviewer
And the costume design, Ruth Carter.
- [50:04]
Robert Townsend
Ruth Carter is. She's an absolute. I've worked with Ruth many times. We first did the Five Heartbeats together. We had another costume designer, and it didn't work out. And then Ruth had to come in, like, two weeks from filming, and she was just like. And I had the vision of, like, duck dresses like this, and duh, duh, duh, duh, duh. And Flash has this. And Ruf was just like, sketchy. Sketching, sketching. And so then we worked on baps together, and she came up with the whole Halle look and everything. And then Meteor Man, I was like, I want the look to be like this. And then we have this and we have that. And so that's all of her genius.
- [50:45]
Interviewer
I mean, then she, of course, would go on to do Black Panther and be the first black person to win an Academy Award for costume design.
- [50:51]
Robert Townsend
Yeah, no, she's the real deal, you know, but it's just kind of like, I can't say enough about when you work with the right people and everybody brings their special magic, their special. And what I had, like, I have what I call the Townsend Bible, and I just break down every scene and I just go. I learned there's something I created when I did Hollywood Shuffle because it was My money and I couldn't afford to bump heads. So in my Bible, I have everything. He wears a gray sweater with blue jeans and a shirt that says big red records on it. I'm in that detail. So I give all of that to her and she's like, oh, Robert, I love that. But here's what about this? And I go, ooh, better, better, better.
- [51:38]
Interviewer
Amazing. Well, we all want to say thank you for Meteor Man. It means so much to us and it has remained in our brains.
- [51:45]
Robert Townsend
Thank you.
- [51:46]
Interviewer
So thank you for executing that, getting it done. Now, being a 90s kid, I grew up on sitcoms that really. And we also had black sitcoms, which I'm very grateful for. But I think you had a sitcom that my sister and I loved and watched religiously. I want to talk to you about the parenthood. Yes. What made you want to have your own half hour sitcom TV show?
- [52:16]
Robert Townsend
Well, there was two things. There were two things in mind. I don't, you know, I looked at little kids in the hood, you know, even though I'm living in Hollywood. And I go, they're feeding all these kids all this crap. And there was a time you would want the television to be a babysitter. And then there was a time you didn't want the television to be a babysitter. And I started to see that and I was like, this is not good, this is bad. So then I said, you know what? I am going to create a sitcom with old fashioned morals and values to feed this generation of little black kids that look like me. And that was the whole Trojan horse behind the parenthood. So that you would, it would be funny, but you would get these life lessons so that you would go, ooh, I identify with Zaria. Oh, I identify with Michael. Ooh, they're kind of like the Cosby's, but they go a little bit edgier because they're bringing up conversations about drugs and gangs and, you know, self esteem on a whole nother frequency. So that was part of the agenda. And then the other part was that I was looking at it to fund my studio. So I was like, okay, I'll do this for five years. And. And I will, you know, because I had bought my own studio on Hollywood Boulevard. And I was like, and I will use my studio to create like how musicians can go in their studio and they can play. I was like, I have my own studio. And so in that studio, I shot some of the Five Heartbeats, I shot some of Meteor man. And then we were starting to do the Parenthood. And then the earthquake came and I lost my studio. But I was, you know, so I think strategy, I never complain. It's not about complaining. It's about what are you going to do? What are you going to do? So now when you talk about the parenthood, there's so many kids, young adults, adults now, that come up to me and say, oh, man, you are my dad. You know, you taught me so many life lessons watching that show. You empowered me. I believe. Dah, dah, dah, dah. So again, it's another thing, like, five years, there were so many messages. And it's like, now I've been working with Damon on Papa's House, and we've been having the best time. And Damon is truly my cinematic son because he has the funny stuff, but then he also has life stuff in there, which I love.
- [54:51]
Interviewer
How are you? This sounds an interesting question. How are you getting your rest during that time when you're doing so many things, you want to think about five heartbeats and all these things? You have to be so, so centered and clear to be at the center of the show, but also be steering the ship. How are you able to keep your mind focused on all the things you need to be to focus on?
- [55:14]
Robert Townsend
You know, let me say this first. I say strip clubs. No. Anyway. Every weekend I got singles, baby. No, that's the single. Anyway. No, no. The truth is that I always have quiet time for me, me time. And I would always go to the beach. I would always go to the beach. I still do to this day. It's kind of. I call it cleaning your energy. So when, you know, probably the same for you. When I'm around a lot of people shaking hands and all of that, there's all this energy flowing. Energy, energy, energy. And then I would like. My ritual is that I will go to the beach and I will be there, quiet for two hours, three hours, just letting the waves and everything wash the energy off. I still do this. I'll do a self retreat for myself. So there was a time I would go to the Miramar Hotel in Pontecito. Yes. And the rooms were right on the water. And at nighttime, the trains would come, right? And the whole room would shake. And I would go to that hotel. I wrote Meteor man up there, the Parenthood, the pilot. And I would just go. And it was like the coolest. It was like in a movie, because in the middle of the night, the train would come through and you're on the other side of the train. And my room would face the water, you just walk right out to the sand. And I always had my CDs back then. And I would be listening to Bob Marley. Bob Marley glancing from my room, and I'd be up there listening to Bob Marley. So, yeah, yeah. But, yeah, no, I really, you know, I really believe that you have to take quiet time to clear. Because I think sometimes there's so many things like this coming, coming. And if you don't. I don't know, it's like, clear your brain. Because if you can be quiet in your brain, then you can hear. Like, right now, I think with a lot of the kids, young adults and adults, there's so much stimulation because of iPhones and television and da da da da. And apple. Da da da da da. So there's a lot of energy, energy, energy. And I think that sometimes you just gotta be. Sidney Poitier. Used to. I used to call it Dead Man Days. I call it where, you know, you just lay in bed and you just do nothing. You're like, you know, like, I'm not doing anything. And it's like, no, just relax. How do you feel? What do you feel? How are you feeling? And my mentor was Sidney Poitier. And then I was talking to him about it. He goes, I do the same thing. He goes, I will. He talked about how he was having a really hard time because he was the noble black man for so long. And he said everybody was coming after him, and he was trying to figure it out, and he was all by himself and he was all alone and all this stuff. And he said. He goes, robert, I had a dead man day, as you would like to say. And I laid in bed. And I just laid in bed, and I just thought. And just downloaded this energy because people are always touching. Hello, how are you? How are you? And he said, after three days, that's when. When. Let's do it again came into my being. And all of those movies that he did with Cosby and Denise, Nicholas and everybody, it came out of that quietness. And we would bond, and I was like, oh, man. Because it's like sometimes you just gotta stop. Stop the world. Stop the world. How do I feel? Stop the world. I feel good. Oh, that hurts a little bit there. Oh, I just want to relax. Did I handle that the best way? Could I have done it better? So, yeah. So that's how I refuel.
- [59:08]
Interviewer
Wow. Thank you for that. This movie I got to rewatch this morning, and a lot of surprising things came up for me. And watching it again, and this is Also, a movie of yours that I've watched many times, and I'm not alone in that. I'm talking about BAPS.
- [59:28]
Robert Townsend
Mm.
- [59:30]
Interviewer
Here's the thing that struck me about BAPST1. It's a. It's a miracle of a movie that this movie even, like, came together. Cause you do sometimes wonder, how did he get these actors to come in and do this movie and do it and be so committed? And what struck me was how emotional BAPST is. And also your choice of music and score.
- [59:51]
Robert Townsend
Mm.
- [59:53]
Interviewer
Can I just ask, why did you decide to go that route with score and some of the music cues that are more slow and just more emotional in this film, which is leaning toward comedy?
- [60:10]
Robert Townsend
Well, music is powerful, and I think that the movies that I grew up on, the. They knew how to utilize music like Some like it Hot, the Days of Wine and Roses. There's music. There's wonderful, wonderful Henry Mancini. These composers are just so. When I looked at bapst, they sent me the script, and again, Troy Baer had written the script and wonderful script, but I'm always gonna push it harder. And so I got into trouble with a lot of people. I was like, robert, want more jokes, more jokes, more jokes. But I understand comedy, and so I'm gonna push it. My mission there was, could I create a comedy duel with two women of color? And so Halle, you know, hadn't done a comedy like Silver. Like, in my mind, when I think of baps, I was thinking, like, the Beverly Hillbillies where they're just fish out of water, really funny, doing. Saying funny stuff, doing silly stuff. And. But Troy wrote it with his heart. And I go, oh, I got to go into the heart. So I got to find the right sound to get that heart. And so for me, I will, like, on my phone, I have, like, soundtracks to, you know, from Ennio Marconi to John Williams. And I will listen to scores all the time just to get inspired. So there's so many Betty Blue. There's so many movies that I listen to this music to sound. So with. With baps, I didn't want to do the typical, you know, they Two girls from Katydid, Georgia, baby, no. I go like, I want a symphony. I want a symphony here. So when they go, can you come in here for the reading of the will? And then it's like, yes, okay. He's going to give you. Take the words out, start the symphony, make the audience work a little bit. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh. He storms out. She stays there. They Start crying. Oh, my God. How much did they get? You know what I mean? So, you know, I'm a student of film, so I love it. So with that, I'm not going to ever do the typical stuff. So I'm like, I need a symphony like this. And the one thing that I would say is that if you see any of my test scores from any of my movies, they're all the same. They're way above average. Because I care that much. I'm listening to the strings. I'm listening to the harp. I'm listening to. Ooh, I want a jazz piano. Just a little bit. Ah, ah. Too much. Just ah. Because if. If music is. If the score is composed the right way, when those strings come in, you start crying, man. When that little lonely oboe plays, it'll break your heart. So I can't stress enough as a filmmaker how powerful music is. And so in bapst, you know, that's the secret. Cause, like, even when they go, go, go, get it, get it. Even that song, you want a vibe, It's a vibe when she's doing that. And Halle was absolutely amazing. And I got to say this about Natalie. When I talk about casting, I go that extra mile. And I think a lot of directors now don't go the extra mile, in my opinion, because when a film is really well done or well cast, those characters are remembered for the rest of their lives. So when we were casting Mickey, Mickey, you know, they had every actress in Hollywood coming to audition for it because this was Halle Berry to be Halle Berry's best friend. So all these women. So I'm meeting, but I trust my gut and my instinct. And so I'm meeting him and I'm like, no, I'm not right. Not right. And it's just. It's not anything against the actresses. It was just like I. I didn't feel anything. And we had callbacks the next day, and I had to make a choice, and I wasn't happy. And then I had ran into Faison love. And Faison said, there's a girl in my acting class, she's really good, you know, her name is Natalie Desale. And I go get her. Have her come to your house, man. I want to meet her. I'm trying to cast this movie. And I got my callbacks tomorrow, man. Have her come, please. So she comes to his house and we do a two hour improv. Me and Natalie, we go through every scene. Da da da da. Where he at? $10,000. Da da da da da da. Booyah. You know, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba. So we go through the whole movie. We're doing the whole thing, two hours. And then after it's over, I go, you know, I said, thank you very much. And she goes, was that good? Was that good? And I was like, it was really good. And I called the studio. I said, I found the girl. She's perfect for the part. What has she done? Nothing, but she's perfect. Robert, come on. I said, bring. Can we bring her for the callbacks tomorrow? I'm not happy with the other people. Can we bring her for the callbacks? Okay, bring her. So when a movie, you know, like, when anything gets greenlit, everything goes really fast. And they go like, scout now. You know, cast now, wardrobe now. And it's like, why couldn't we have done that five months ago? And so I'm doing it. So I'm scouting locations, wardrobe, fitting, blah, blah, blah. So I get to the callbacks late. So I get there late, and everybody's looking at me pissed. So I've got 20 of the top black actresses in Hollywood all sitting there like, hi, Robert. You know, like, wow. Someone doesn't know what time it is, you know? And so I'm like, it wasn't me, you know?
- [66:14]
Interviewer
So anyway, I like you at all.
- [66:15]
Robert Townsend
Yeah. And so then I see Natalie, and Natalie's looking all scared, like, hey, Robert. And I was like, what the hell is going? Come here. Come here. And she goes, I don't know if I could do this, Robert. All these people, I know them from television. I can't get this part. I'm not going to get this part. I said, natalie, would you just be quiet? Just go in there. When they call you, just come in. So I go into the room. The actresses come in. Halle sits in her seat. The script super. The casting director reads with them, and they're reading with the actress. Thank you. Thank you very much. Oh, good seeing you, Halle. Good seeing you, girl. Good seeing you. Oh. Halle stays seated. All these actresses go. Then Natalie comes in. Natalie comes in, and she is shaking, and she goes, hi, everybody. How y' all doing? Thank y' all so much for having me. And then Hallie goes, oh, I'm so. And Hallie gets up from her chair and comes over.
- [67:07]
Interviewer
You okay?
- [67:08]
Robert Townsend
You okay? Give me that size. Let me read with you. And she starts to read with her, and we see the comedy. The two of them going. And it is lovely. The studios look over, and the studio head looks over me and goes, she's the one. And I was like. And Then we go. Thank you so much. Okay, y', all. It was nice. I cannot believe I'm meeting Hannah Berry and then she leaves out of the room. And she gets cast in that part. And part of it is, you know, I never settle when it comes to casting. I freaking love what I do.
- [67:45]
Interviewer
Well, I think what was so special. Special and watching it again was looking at the credits at the beginning, you know, as every movie has their credits at the beginning, but it's always so nice to see. And introducing Natalie, because I think I knew that was her first movie, but that's when you know it's her first movie.
- [68:05]
Robert Townsend
It was her first movie. Yeah.
- [68:07]
Interviewer
And I'm just so grateful to you for seeing her, grateful to Faison love for saying her name and you all having that long improv. It sounds a lot like what you were doing with Five Heartbeats. And she's magic in the movie. Her and Holly together are magic. You can't.
- [68:26]
Robert Townsend
Thank you.
- [68:27]
Interviewer
Fake that. You can't buy that. And that is why I think those characters also, every Halloween, people just be watching your movies. Like, okay, let's. Okay, this is. How's the hair? How's the fit? Da, da, da. Classic Halloween costume, which is the greatest tribute to any filmmaker ever.
- [68:42]
Robert Townsend
Thank you.
- [68:42]
Interviewer
Because it just means that the characters kind of leapt off the screen and stayed with us. The next thing I want to talk to you about is something I like to call the mockumentary, which is a very unique genre of film because you have to take it seriously, even though everybody knows they're winking. Jackie's Back is a movie that I've seen so many times, but I was happy to watch it again. And I do. Look, I was kind of raised a little bit by Jennifer Lewis. She's a one of one. She's singular. She sat here at this chair and, like, just took me to task as she does. What was it like being with her every day on that movie?
- [69:36]
Robert Townsend
Jennifer Lewis is a genius. She is a comical, brilliant, genius, singing diva. The list goes on and on. And she has this big, beautiful heart being a director, allowing her to just be free to play. And, you know, when you cast really well, you just learn. I don't even direct. You know, it's kind of like, direct. If I cast wrong, directing is like this. If I cast really right, directing is like that. You just go like, that's all I do. So she's worked with a lot of directors, but I think I was able to get on her frequency. And so once you get on a person's frequency. Hey, when you do the commercial here, give me more of the commercial. Like, you know, you're going to use this. And so and so and so and so. This don't hurt nobody. You could do this and then go for a stupid take. So I was just. Played a symphony with her, like, okay, you just stuck him in the head with a hair pick, you know, and they're putting you in the car and you go, baby, you know, and she just knows how to commit. Now you're doing a music video. And then I would just get on her frequency, you know, like, what was the take your Jheri curl? And go. We had all these album covers. Wednesday Night Fever, you know, it was just all this crazy. And Marc Shaiman did the music and.
- [71:05]
Interviewer
Mark Brown De La Duke wrote the script.
- [71:06]
Robert Townsend
Exactly. And the script was funny. And the thing for me is that I'm a TV baby, so I understand. Wink, wink to the camera, you know, so that all the set pieces. Entendre. Make that a double for Mama and look at the camera. Entendre. And TV Blake, who plays entendre, is like, yes, Mama. Yes, Mama. But it's kind of. I don't know, I'm a student of comedy. So, you know, it's kind of like in television, you know, you have tone meetings all the time, you know, and it's like, you know, only so many people understand tone. Like, there's another tone here, Another tone. And with Jackie's back, I just yield.
- [71:54]
Interviewer
Yield, yield, you know, just, you know, young Kyla Pratt.
- [71:58]
Robert Townsend
Young Kyla Pratt, you know, so, no, she's a comedy, and she's been trying to do the sequel, Ventura Boulevard, not Sunset Boulevard, Ventura Boulevard. And I mean, but, you know, so Debbie Allen's supposed to be directing that. I wanted to direct it, but I don't know. It's like that, you know, But. But she. I just think she's. She's. And every. Every July 15th is Jackie Washington Day and Kinloch. Yes, yes. No. And they have done so many. They're supposed to be like a Broadway show, you know, that they're doing, you know, but no, I just think it's. It's absolutely wonderful. And she's brilliant. She's brilliant.
- [72:36]
Interviewer
It's interesting. So to go from a fictitious character telling their life story. You did a biopic about someone who is larger than life and someone who means so much to the music world and really, music fans in general, you get the Little Richard story.
- [72:57]
Robert Townsend
Yes.
- [72:58]
Interviewer
What made you want to take on that behemoth of A biopic.
- [73:05]
Robert Townsend
Little Richard had done so much for the culture and for music and didn't get his due. So when Leon came to me with. Because he was attached to Starr. And then he goes, the only person who can direct this is Robert. You know, and so then I read the script, and then I, you know. And then I met, you know, Little Richard. And there's something to be said about climbing a mountain that no one has ever climbed. And then no one gives you your props because you climbed that mountain. And so when I met him, I was like, I gotta get this right. I gotta get it right. And so as I read the script and we talked about, you know, how he became the rock and roll, the maestro of rock and roll. It touched my heart. And so we had to do the same. And this is. Oh, it would break my heart. We had to do the scene when he was a little boy and he would dress up in his mother's clothes, and his father. True story. Beat the crap out of him and just beat him to a bloody pulp. And I'm gonna make a man out of you. So it was late night, and we had to do the scene where he's in the house and the father has about to beat him up and everything. And so when we were shooting, Little Richard never came on set. It was too emotional for him. But you would see this white limousine pull up right on the edge of the set, and it would just sit there. And then, because the scene was outside, and I go. And action. And I'm at the monitors, and I look over and I see the white limo. And then he's in there and he's watching. And then the limo would just kind of back out. He'd see the scene and back out. And then one time I said, you know, I'm gonna go over there and just say something. Cause we were shooting, it was a night shoot. And I go over there, and, you know, I'm like, hey. Hey, how's it going? You okay in there? And it goes like. And he. And tears are streaming down. And he's like, child, you got it.
- [75:21]
Interviewer
Your life is a fucking movie.
- [75:25]
Robert Townsend
I mean, he would just. Because he wouldn't get out. He would just watch, and he would go, you got it. And he's crying. He's in the back crying, and just goes back up. And then I was like, okay, go back to the set.
- [75:37]
Interviewer
What was your preparation process like going into that one?
- [75:41]
Robert Townsend
I watched all of his interviews. I watched footage. I watched documentaries on the 60s and music that time. So he. And Rosetta Tharp, Elvis. I just went down a rabbit hole. Everything Little Richard. Everything, Little Richard. And what could be said, what couldn't be said. When they used to have the black people on the balcony or they had a line in the middle of the theater and white folks on this side, black folks on that side. All he wanted to do was play music and just that's what made him happy. And then all the racist stuff and you can't eat here, you can't sit there. You can't. It was like a kid. He just was a little. His spirit. He still had that little kid's little mischievous spirit where he was just like, you know, I am the, you know, the architect of rock and roll. They stole it all from me, you know, and he would just. Sometimes he would get into that soapbox and he would just talk. But then when you really think about it, he was just telling his truth. Like a lot of that. They stole a lot of all his stuff and he was the one. And then all of a sudden so and so gets the credit and he goes, that's my rift. They would come to the church and what, watch him play? They would watch him.
- [77:05]
Interviewer
So music is definitely a constant in your work. The love of it and even like, period, you know, you're not afraid to kind of flashback to your youth. But this is sort of your first musical, if you will. Carmen, the hip opera. I remember watching it when it came on TV on mtv and it was such a big deal for. For all of us. I mean, you got a young Beyonce in this movie. Yes, Makai Pfeiffer, who's also fantastic and also, like, there's just another Reagan Gomez pops up. And apparently I definitely also recognize that in your work, actors reappearing and sort of that maybe you have that rapport and that shorthand. How did Carmen the hip Hoppera come into your life?
- [77:59]
Robert Townsend
MTV had reached out and said, we're going to do a remake of the opera Carmen, but we want to do it with hip hop, so we want to create a hip hop opera. And so I was like, I'm in. That sounds amazing. It's like, oh, I've never done an opera before. And I forgot the guy's name. He's out of Baltimore and he had written the score. He had written this opera. And it was like, da, da, da. And it was, you know, and then it would stop. And so we had auditions in MTV headquarters in Times Square. At the time they were in Times Square and I didn't know Beyonce. I had seen her I had hosted some events in Cincinnati, and she was in Destiny's Child, so I knew of her, and I was like, wow, she has a striking look. You know, she was a beautiful young girl, but I could see there was. She had something special because my director eyes, I go, something's going on with her. She's got something. So anyway, when they said, who would play Carmen, I was like, I think that girl in Destiny's Child, you know, Beyonce, would be perfect for. And so they were like, has she acted before? And I was like, no, but I think she'd be perfect. And they go like, Robert, you know, because I always get that pushback because I'm always Robert, you know, what are you doing? Yeah. So I go, I think she'll be really good. She's gonna have to audition. I go, but she's in Destiny's Child. We don't care. We need to see her audition. So anyway, she has to come to New York to audition. And so she comes to the audition, her first audition, she's with the head of A and R to make sure. Protect her client. She's got security with her because she's in. You know, so I can see she's nervous. Like, really, like, nervous shaking and everything. And so then, you know, like, me, I have an arsenal when it comes to getting performance or, you know, making somebody comfortable. So. So then I say to the head of her A and R person, I said, you're gonna be in the scene, too. I need you to read this. And Bodyguard. I need you to read Mr. Townsend. I don't act Mr. Townsend. You act in the day, nigga. And so he goes like, okay. And they were like. And then she had to read. They started to sweat and really get nervous. And then she was watching them get nervous, and then she got stronger. And so then I said, oh, there it is. Oh, there it is. And then. And then she goes like, can we do it again? Can we do it again? And can I do the death scene? I said, let's do the death scene. Okay, let's do it again. And she had the red bottoms on. And whatever the outfit, you know, whatever the thing was expensive. And I. And I said, you know, take the bullet here. Take the bullet there. You know, Let me see. Roll around now, you know, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da. And I'm watching her, and we're videotaping the whole thing. Take the camera off the tripod. Listen, go. Okay, follow, follow. Let's go back. Okay, great, great, great. Okay. And I said, okay, thank you very much. Would you like to see it again? We could do it again. I go, no, no, no, no, no, no. That's it. Now let me say this. Watching her blossom into the superstar that she has become. I saw it in that room because there's certain actors, actresses, first audition, they wouldn't go all the way there. She went there.
- [81:24]
Interviewer
Last credit that I want to talk to you about is a documentary that you did about your own movie. And I went to the theater to see it because I was so excited that you.
- [81:39]
Robert Townsend
You reached out to me. You are real one. You reached out and you were talking about how much you love. And I, you know, because I'm not even on social media, and I get this whole thing, and it's like, I want to tell you something about this movie, you know, this documentary. This shit is so good. I just want to tell you something. Rapid time rap. I was like, oh, my gosh. She really. This is. Okay. And I sit back. Thank you. Your ass went like. I was like, that's a.
- [82:03]
Interviewer
Because, yo, I was in that theater fucked up. Okay? Crying. Because you. You're still. You're a filmmaker through and through. So you know. You know how to get us. And at the end of the movie. Well, yes. And I don't. I'm not. Look, I don't want to ruin it for anyone. I think everyone should watch this documentary. If you're. If you're a fan of the Five Heartbeats, cool. If you've never seen the Five Heartbeats, I think you can still watch the documentary and enjoy it. And of course, you're going to want to go watch the Five Heartbeats after you watch the documentary. But what really, I think just messed me up and took me out was the story about the man that you saw, I think, at a coffee shop.
- [82:48]
Robert Townsend
Who.
- [82:50]
Interviewer
Shared with you how the movie changed his life. And that was, for me, when it was Wireworks, I was just done.
- [83:00]
Robert Townsend
And.
- [83:02]
Interviewer
It'S such an amazing thing for you to share with us about how you got a chance to understand what that movie means to people. And I just know you didn't have to make that doc. And also because you don't have any of the fucking footage of the movie. So you're giving us storyboards, and you're still being Robert Townsend, where you're like, I'm gonna do the documentary without having any footage from the movie. I'm gonna use my own footage that I took while filming it. What was the driving force behind you making this video? Very special documentary, which is the making of the Five Heartbeats.
- [83:39]
Robert Townsend
Sometimes you create something and you can't escape it. Wherever I go, there's somebody. Five Heartbeats, you know, Duck, you know where Eddie at? Cry boy. You know, gang, People come up, and I'm just like, me at the grocery store, at the gas station, people start singing, and so. And fans, sometimes they just go, we want more, we want more, we want more. And then because I'm really quiet and private, I never really talk about my process. And so people were like, how did you do that? The cast is so perfect. The music, how did you, you know, like the writing process. Da, da, da, da. And so, you know, when people kept bombarding me with it, I was like, you know what? I've never revisited any of my work. You know, once I do it, it's done. And so I said, but you know what? As a love letter to the fans, I'm going to do a documentary and kind of share with you my process and how I do what I do, because there is a part of me that I've always tried to raise the bar. So whatever genre I'm in, I'm trying to raise the bar higher, higher, higher. And so with the documentary, I go, if you really are a fan and want to know how I cook, you know, how I make the sausage, you know, how I cook it, how I create it, I'm going to take you inside my creative process. And so that's really what the documentary was. It's kind of like a master class with Robert Townsend, because then you go like, oh, damn, he wrote it again. Okay. Oh. And he. Okay, he did the music. Oh. He was looking for the songs. And you go through every stage and you see me finding the actors, all of that. But. But I just. I just wanted to hopefully inspire filmmakers out there to know that whatever you want to do, you can do and that, you know, I don't think anything is hard. I think the journey is the journey. You know, like, nobody wanted it. Nobody was like, five harbies. What is he doing? Why is he doing this movie? Why does he want to do this movie? And then when you see the test scores and executives, you know, we want to. We should cut this church scene and just let Eddie die. You know? And I was like, no. You know, and then all of a sudden, you know, God shows up in my life always. And, you know, God is like, I got you, Robert. I got you. I'm outside. I'm in Pasadena, walking on the street. And if the test screening doesn't go well, they will cut out the scene with me and my little sister. They will cut out the church scene. I will have to add all this voiceover stuff. And I'm just like, oh, God, God save me. And the screening is over with. And I go in that theater and where they're still looking glum, like, yeah, you know, some people applauded, some didn't. We're waiting on the cards. The cards will tell us everything we need to know.
- [86:35]
Interviewer
The cards.
- [86:36]
Robert Townsend
And then the cards come back and it's the highest rated film, one of the highest rated films in Fox's history. I got a few scars, but it was fun. I will not change anything about the journey that I've been on. And for real artists, the real ones, they know that, you know, there's no negative. It's all life lessons to learn. That's all.
- [87:01]
Interviewer
Okay, last question. What. What is your definition of a really great director?
- [87:11]
Robert Townsend
My definition of a really great director? A really great director is someone who knows how to play a symphony to the fullest, bringing out the best in the actors, the best in the cinematographer, the best in the composer, the best in wardrobe design, the best in the editor. He or she is the ultimate director of the symphony. That's what makes a great director.
- [87:45]
Interviewer
I think that's how many would describe you. You are. I mean, I think when I've gotten a chance to look at a lot of your work back to back to back, and I've been able to watch a lot of it in real time, which I'm really honored. And I've been able to go to the movies and see your work and see it in real time and see on the big screen and then see it again on my small screen and relive it. But I think what I keep seeing is themes of family.
- [88:12]
Robert Townsend
Yes.
- [88:13]
Interviewer
Of trying to be a good person and doing the right things and following your dreams no matter what. And I think also seeing your work, really amazing actors who are at the top of their game. And some are new, some are legendary, and there are some that keep popping up because there's just a chemistry that you have. And I think your work continues to stay with us and live with us because of your undying passion and love for what you do and because you've been such a student of all of it. I think you remind me to always be a student, no matter how good the work is, no matter how good the work gets. As I keep watching your work, you continue to strive to be even better than you were before. And you're always great.
- [89:12]
Robert Townsend
Well, thank you.
- [89:12]
Interviewer
So thank you for letting your grandmother's words come in one ear and out the other. Because your purpose, your mission, has affected so many of us. And you've reminded us to walk in our purpose. Because if we don't, someone else is gonna miss out because of it.
- [89:38]
Robert Townsend
Well, thank you. Thank you for all this time. Thank you so much.
- [89:42]
Interviewer
Thank you so much. That's a cut.