Building a Legacy with Sheryl Lee Ralph

Summary

Legacy Talk with Lena Waithe: Building a Legacy with Sheryl Lee Ralph

Episode Overview: In this poignant episode of "Legacy Talk with Lena Waithe," host Etienne engages in an in-depth conversation with the illustrious actress Sheryl Lee Ralph. The discussion traverses Sheryl's remarkable journey in the entertainment industry, her resilience in the face of adversity, her iconic roles, and the enduring legacy she continues to build. This detailed summary encapsulates the essence of their dialogue, highlighting key moments, insightful reflections, and inspirational quotes.

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1. Introduction and Personal Connections

The episode opens with a warm exchange between Etienne and Sheryl Lee Ralph, underscoring the personal connections that underpin their relationship. Sheryl references her collaboration on "Moesha" and emphasizes her relentless drive to succeed.

• Sheryl Lee Ralph (00:10): "You can do everything, so now do nothing. I was like, I'm a reward and an actress. Want me to do nothing?"

• Sheryl Lee Ralph (00:23): "Every single time. I want to make it. I want to be here."

Etienne praises Sheryl's ability to connect with others, a trait highlighted by Sheryl's son, who recognizes her natural affinity for building relationships.

• Sheryl Lee Ralph (01:07): "Etienne has a great spirit, a great heart, and he's a natural connector."

2. Early Career and Breaking Barriers

Sheryl delves into her early career challenges, particularly the pervasive racism she faced as a Black woman striving to make her mark on Broadway. She recounts the struggles of navigating an industry that often marginalized her talents.

• Sheryl Lee Ralph (03:12): "I'm a child of the 60s, so you face things like racism head-on, where people want you to know how different you are...they want to tell you what you can and cannot do."

Despite these obstacles, Sheryl remained steadfast in her pursuit of excellence, eventually securing her place in the Broadway production of "Dreamgirls."

3. The "Dreamgirls" Audition and Triumph

Sheryl shares a detailed account of her audition process for "Dreamgirls," highlighting both the emotional and professional hurdles she overcame to land her role.

• Sheryl Lee Ralph (05:01): "Deana became strong enough to fight for herself."

She describes being fired from previous productions and the pivotal moment when Michael Butler, the director known for "Hair," offered her a chance to audition for "Dreamgirls."

• Sheryl Lee Ralph (07:08): "So I sang Ave Maria. So when I finished, there was silence and I was asked to leave...But then Tom Ian came backstage and said, the show is terrible, but you are not."

This encouragement from industry veterans reaffirmed her belief in her talents, ultimately leading to her successful casting.

4. Overcoming Personal Loss and Professional Challenges

During the mid-1980s AIDS crisis, Broadway was deeply affected, and Sheryl faced the added emotional strain of losing friends to the disease. Despite the pervasive silence surrounding AIDS at the time, she continued to perform and create art.

• Sheryl Lee Ralph (04:06): "Nobody's going to like you talking about this, talking about AIDS."

Her commitment to her craft during such trying times exemplifies her resilience and dedication to her legacy.

5. Iconic Roles and Their Impact

Sheryl reflects on some of her most significant roles, including her performances in "To Sleep with Anger" and "Sister Act 2." She discusses the depth and complexity she brings to each character, emphasizing the importance of authenticity in her portrayals.

"To Sleep with Anger":

• Sheryl Lee Ralph (17:42): "I had to fight for that scene...I knew it was an important scene."

Her determination ensured that pivotal moments were captured, showcasing her ability to influence the narrative and bring critical issues to the forefront.

"Sister Act 2":

• Sheryl Lee Ralph (21:05): "Nothing wrong with my shade."

Sheryl highlights the importance of representation and authenticity in her roles, ensuring that her characters reflect genuine experiences and struggles.

6. Transitioning Between Mediums: From Stage to Screen

Sheryl discusses the challenges and nuances of transitioning from Broadway stage performances to television and film. She explains the differences in acting techniques required for each medium and how she adapted to maintain her authenticity.

• Sheryl Lee Ralph (28:04): "People don't understand that you go in, you rehearse...It's like throwing a ball."

Her ability to seamlessly move between different acting environments speaks to her versatility and deep understanding of her craft.

7. Philosophy on Acting and Personal Growth

A central theme of the conversation revolves around Sheryl's philosophy on acting and personal development. She emphasizes the importance of being prepared, authentic, and continuously honing one's craft.

• Sheryl Lee Ralph (32:35): "Don't act. Learn your lines, understand the character. Now be."

Sheryl advises aspiring actors to focus on authenticity and self-awareness, ensuring that their performances resonate with genuine emotion and truth.

8. Recent Projects and "Abbott Elementary"

Sheryl shares insights into her recent work on "Abbott Elementary," highlighting the collaborative chemistry with Quinta Brunson and the show's impact. She recounts how a fortuitous meeting with Quinta led to the creation of a show that has resonated deeply with audiences.

• Sheryl Lee Ralph (37:45): "I met Quinta Brunson. That that's what happens."

Their shared commitment to authenticity and representation has made "Abbott Elementary" a standout success, further cementing Sheryl's legacy in the industry.

9. Motherhood and Mentorship

Throughout the episode, Sheryl emphasizes the importance of motherhood and mentorship in her life. She draws parallels between her on-screen roles and her real-life experiences as a mother, highlighting how each informs and enriches the other.

• Sheryl Lee Ralph (31:14): "I see Issa, I see Quinta. I'm like, look at my daughters."

Her nurturing approach both on and off the screen serves as a foundation for the meaningful relationships she builds within the industry.

10. Defining a Great Actress

In the concluding sections of the conversation, Sheryl articulates her definition of a truly great actress. She underscores the necessity of self-awareness, continuous learning, and genuine connection with others.

• Sheryl Lee Ralph (44:46): "You've got to know yourself. You got to know who you are. You have to like yourself."

Her words serve as both inspiration and guidance for aspiring actors, emphasizing that greatness stems from within and is reflected through authentic performances.

11. Final Reflections and Legacy

As the conversation wraps up, Sheryl reflects on her journey, the milestones she's achieved, and the legacy she continues to build. Her humility and recognition of her role as a trailblazer for future generations of Black women in entertainment shine through.

• Sheryl Lee Ralph (31:09): "Look at my kids. I'm a good mother, baby. You are."

Her commitment to excellence, resilience, and mentorship ensures that her legacy will inspire and empower generations to come.

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Conclusion

This episode of "Legacy Talk with Lena Waithe" offers a profound exploration of Sheryl Lee Ralph's storied career, her unwavering commitment to her craft, and the lasting impact she's making in the entertainment industry. Through her candid reflections and insightful revelations, Sheryl not only shares her personal journey but also imparts invaluable wisdom on overcoming adversity, the essence of authentic acting, and the importance of building a meaningful legacy.

Transcript

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

Lemonade.

[Etienne]

We talk about Moesha.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

Ah, Legacy.

[Etienne]

Oh, Legacy.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

You can do everything, so now do nothing. I was like, I'm a reward and an actress. Want me to do nothing?

[Etienne]

You wanted to win.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

I wanted to win.

[Etienne]

Is that what you're taking with you every single time you do these days?

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

Every single time. I want to make it. I want to be here.

[Etienne]

It's such a great line when you say, you know, your dad loves you, your brother loves you, and.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

And I love you.

[Etienne]

I love you too. Legacy. Oh, Legacy. So happy to have you.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

Thank you. Good to be here with you.

[Etienne]

Thank you for joining me. I think what I try to do in preparing, it's about wanting to start at the beginning.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

Truly the beginning.

[Etienne]

I know, right? I think about the beginning as flagship Beginnings. Uh. Oh, we're filming. Okay, go ahead. You good at Thea? Of course. Your son comes in, I'll talk about him. He and I, as you know, built such a strong friendship meeting at the Coffee Bean. Like up the street from my house.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

Yes.

[Etienne]

It was just all love, and he was telling me his story. And you being his mom was just a part of that. And I just sort of got to know you, I think, in a way, by befriending your son. He's such an amazing human. You have two amazing children. So I think that's actually the beginning where we should start. So kudos to him for walking in with water. We're at his place of business. Walk good.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

Yes.

[Etienne]

So what a beautiful journey.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

Etienne has a great spirit, a great heart, and he's a natural connector. Yes, he is going to. Etienne could be in a completely strange land, walk through a crowd and come out on the other side and say, look at my new friend. Look who I went to school with. You've got to meet this person. And he has always been like that. So to me, it's so amazing when people say, you are who you are. That is absolutely true. Cause he was just born that way.

[Etienne]

In my preparation for this conversation with you, I wanted to talk to him, and what he said to me was that you are a great connector.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

I am.

[Etienne]

That's what he said. He said my mom can connect with anyone. That is such a through line. There's a lot of through lines. As I look at the word. People are drawn to you. There's something that feels very natural and very real, but at the same time, you're still a star, you're still an actress. So there's a regalness to you as well. That is more than the average person, which to why you're on screen and why you're on stage. But to go back to your flagship, as I was looking at your work, I was like, I think that for you, in a way, is Dreamgirls.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

Oh, absolutely.

[Etienne]

And what's interesting about it is I did not have the blessing of being born at the time where I could go see it in person. I think of that show as a miracle because there's so much joy in it. It's the beginning of something. There's a shift in culture, but it also represents a sadness and a grief as well, in terms of who helped to bring it to life. Sort of lost their lives in a.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

Way, which was very difficult for me.

[Etienne]

Of course.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

Of course. I can't imagine a young person. First of all, I'm a child of the 60s, so you face things like racism head on, where people want you to know how different you are, how people want to tell you what you can and cannot do, who want to provide limits for you, when, of course, you have great ability to go far beyond those limits. But they want to tell you, no, no, no. You stop here just because of the color of your skin. So I know what it is like to be othered. So here I am now living my life dream on Broadway.

[Etienne]

Right.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

And my friends start dropping dead. They start dropping dead of this disease that has no name.

[Etienne]

Right.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

I was like, wait a minute. Is nobody going to say anything about what's going on and have people look at me and tell me, shut up. Nobody's going to like you talking about this, talking about aids. But of course, it didn't have a name then. It was just called grid. Gay related immune deficiency disease. Right. And nobody wanted to talk about it. And it was just like such a horrible silence that just fell over Broadway.

[Etienne]

In the midst of that, you are still having to be an artist.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

Yeah.

[Etienne]

You know, you have to go on stage and you are originating a role. I'm curious about what is your process to bring Deana to life every night on stage, even in the midst of the devastation that you just spoke about?

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

I know, Dina. I am dena. And Deana would fight too, because Deana became strong enough to fight for herself. Cheryl became strong enough to know that her voice should be heard.

[Etienne]

What was the audition process like for Dream Girls?

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

It was great. It was traumatizing, I'm sure, but it was great. I had done a musical called reggae, which was an absolute flop. Yeah. I think we might have opened when the newspaper strike happened and closed when the garbage strike happened or something. Beyond. It was something horrible, Right? And how I got that role was I had been fired from another musical. They left us on the road. They literally left us on the road in Delaware at the Dupont Theater. And they left us. And they left the four black kids a note and said, stylistically, you no longer fit into the show. And they left us.

[Etienne]

Wow.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

And went to the Kennedy Center. They were a flop, too. They closed.

[Etienne]

Okay.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

But I was so hurt. And I remember I was crying. The ugly cry. You know, the one where your nose hurts. You can't even touch your nose, you've cried so hard. And my friend Jeffrey is on the phone saying, cheryl, Lord God, I've been trying to reach you, girl. Get on the first thing smoking out of Delaware. They're firing the leading lady in this musical. She can't sing. She can't act. You can't sing. You can act. Come on, girl. You have to be here tomorrow morning.

[Etienne]

Wow.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

Just like in a movie, right? So I show up in the alley of the Biltmore Theater with my little suitcase, having taken the bus.

[Etienne]

Come on.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

From Delaware to Broadway. I get there, and I remember. I think it was Kiki Shepherd. I think Vanessa Bellows always, you know.

[Etienne]

Remind us to rub the truck. I'm lucky. For luck.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

Exactly.

[Etienne]

Yeah.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

So there they all are hanging out outside, and Michael Butler comes out. Michael Butler had a big hit called Hair. And he comes out and he hands me a script, and he says, come in. And I go in, and he says, okay.

[Etienne]

Wow.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

I don't even know who I read with. So I read. And then I meet Michael Kamen, who is the musical director, and they give me a song. Everything that touches you. You say you're all alone with visions all your own the things you feel nobody feels the same and I remember sang it. And Michael Butler looks at me and he says, great, you're hired. That's how I got to Broadway. Well, imagine us in a theater that seats maybe, what, 1200 people? Here it is a Sunday matinee, and there are maybe what, 12 people in the audience.

[Etienne]

Wow.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

But one of those people was Tom Ian. And Tom Ian comes backstage and he says, the show is terrible, but you are not. And here's your next job.

[Etienne]

Wow.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

Be here on Monday. And it was 890 Broadway. So I go there to 890. And this time, all of these women are just pouring into this place. And I'm walking behind Loretta Devine.

[Etienne]

Wow.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

Because Loretta Divine was already somebody.

[Etienne]

Come on.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

I'm just fascinated because I'm walking behind Loretta Divine.

[Etienne]

That's Amazing.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

And we get into the place and we're sitting there and I'm hearing these women. They're not singing. It's an emotional experience. They're singing and they're literally. The building in my mind is levitating with the vibrations. I go in and they ask me to sing something from church. I think they thought I was a Baptist.

[Etienne]

Oh.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

And didn't know I'm a little Episcopalian girl.

[Etienne]

Wow.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

So I sang Ave Maria.

[Etienne]

Come on.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

So when I finished, there was silence and I was asked to leave and I sat down to wait. And I'm hot and I'm angry because these I did Ave Maria.

[Etienne]

And you feel like they weren't feeling it.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

I know they, in my mind, they were not feeling it. Ok. How could you feel it when the likes of a Loretta Devine or a oh my God, you just name it goes in there and sings, that's not me. They come out and they say, ramona Brooks, Loretta Devine. I get my stuff and I'm getting ready to book. Cheryl Lee Rouse.

[Etienne]

Come on.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

I was like, oh my God. Now sit down. And then the drama's there. Now this is like everlasting drama. They say, if I call your name, today's yours day. If I don't, thank you very much. Thank you very much.

[Etienne]

Thank you very much.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

After you've sung your heart out and waited all doggone day. Anyway, I stay and at the end I said to Tom, I. And I said, tom, why me? He says, well, I have the one that sings like this. I have the one that sings like this.

[Etienne]

Right?

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

And then there's you who sings like this Just the way I wrote it.

[Etienne]

Wow. Wow.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

And that's what that process was like.

[Etienne]

Wow.

[Podcast Host]

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[Etienne]

When did it click for people? When did you realize, okay, finally people are getting it now. What was the point?

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

I don't know if I ever saw that until we got that next piece of money that took us on the road and we got to New Haven. But anybody in rehearsal that heard Jennifer Holiday sing, how could you not know that you were listening to something that was just unearth? Like this was just something very special. And you can still hear people sing. And I'm telling you, to this day, it'll never be what it was like to hear the gut wrenching emotion of a human being that says, you're gonna love me. You know, you see some things from artists and you think, whoa.

[Etienne]

So did you feel that all the work and process and preparation and traveling, did you feel validated by that nomination?

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

I felt so validated. But I also Learned so many different, different things about awards. What people don't understand about awards and placement is they put you in different places. Right?

[Etienne]

Yeah.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

So they said, okay, Jennifer is going to be in lead actress.

[Etienne]

Okay.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

They said you should be in lead actress. But if you're in supporting actress, you.

[Etienne]

Have a better shot.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

You have a better shot. But they wanted somebody else to get that shot. But it didn't happen.

[Etienne]

For supporting.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

For supporting.

[Etienne]

Wow.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

So they put both of us in lead, knowing exactly what they thought was gonna happen. Except the other one didn't happen. But guess what? It doesn't matter. I will forever be a Tony nominated actress.

[Etienne]

Absolutely.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

And as of right now, having won the Emmy, people always say tony winner, Emmy winner.

[Etienne]

You're like, look, I don't have to.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

Correct you and I don't need to correct you.

[Etienne]

I don't need to correct you on that one. Thank you.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

Not at all. Not at all. Because the show did win. Thank you.

[Etienne]

Come on.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

So.

[Etienne]

Come on. Well, not only did it win, it endured.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

It still does.

[Etienne]

It endured.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

And it's the kind of show that everybody wants to play now. We know that it is about the dreams of three young black women.

[Etienne]

Yeah.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

And very often when people do the show, they get it all wrong because they don't understand the trajectory of these women. Why are the girls, three obviously black girls in the beginning? Because it's harder for those girls to break the barrier.

[Etienne]

Right.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

They have to be twice as good in order to make it. It is not until the second act that you add the light skinned girl because they've already crossed over. So now they're acceptable.

[Etienne]

Correct.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

But people always miss that.

[Etienne]

Is it frustrating when you originate something and have to watch it be interpreted by different people?

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

Yes.

[Etienne]

How do you make peace with it? Because in a way, it's like you started it. You began this journey and you're happy that people are still excited by it and that people still want to see it.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

Yes.

[Etienne]

And that these characters have endured.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

Yes.

[Etienne]

Is it sort of this double consciousness?

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

It's a dual consciousness. Yes. But also you just wait until it's your turn to direct the show and show them what the show actually is.

[Etienne]

Yeah. I receive it. I hear it.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

You just wait for those moments because they will come. Yes.

[Etienne]

Can we leap to you being on screen, Please? Can we do that? There's a movie I watched of yours last night that Etienne recommended. I watch, and it's called to sleep with Anger. I was really riveted. It's saying so much about our families.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

Yes.

[Etienne]

And who we welcome into our homes and traditions. And I think there's a very interesting thing in that film. You play a working mom. You play a wife. It feels very present in your character. But what's happening is they're trying to bring her back to the past and have her be relegated to a certain position in the kitchen, serving the men of the family. I wanted to ask you.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

That's an important scene, too.

[Etienne]

Absolutely.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

Because I had to fight for that scene. It was running late. It was the last day, and they had not shot the scene. And this is when I learned to speak up, and they were not going to shoot the scene. And I was about to cry, and I didn't cry. I picked up my things. Cause we. You know, when you're on location on a small film, sometimes you're walking.

[Etienne]

Yeah.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

Picked up my stuff. And I walked and I left the set, went straight to my trailer. Okay. My little space. And I got. Put my clothes on, and I was getting in my car. And they said, where are you going? Danny Glover came down. He said, where are you going? Said, I'm going home. He said, you're going home? He said, I'm going home.

[Etienne]

Wow.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

If you don't shoot this scene, what have I been here for? This scene is important. Absolutely, it's important. And he said, okay. Okay. Then Charles Burnett comes down as the director. Great director. And Charles says. And he looks at Danny and he says, we gotta shoot the scene.

[Etienne]

Come on.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

They shoot everything else. They now have 30 minutes. 30 minutes.

[Etienne]

Wow.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

To shoot the scene. Charles says, don't worry, you've got this. And he puts all the guys on one side, puts the camera on the other side. So all he does is he pans and just follows me. And when you get to the end, I've dropped the bowl.

[Etienne]

Yeah.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

And when I looked at it, I was like, oh, my God. I knew it was an important scene. I saw it differently. But just in that within 30 minutes.

[Etienne]

It'S a film with a very dark tone. And I'm curious what your relationship was like with Charles in terms of finding that character and working with him.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

There's something so wonderful when a director likes you, when a director respects your art. Charles Burnett wanted me in that role. He wanted me to be. And look.

[Etienne]

Oh, yeah.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

Exactly the way I look, you know, Very important. It's once again always fighting that thing about shade. You know, I remember something that the comment was made, well, if she was Halle Berry's shade. And I was like, that's a beautiful shade, but that's not my Shade. There's nothing wrong with my shade.

[Etienne]

Right.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

You know, so when people talk about, you know, do I see change in the industry? Hell, yeah, I see change in the industry. I see it every day.

[Etienne]

This is a part of why we have these conversations. To give people things to go and look at and see the real breadth of your journey and the range and the work that you're showing.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

Sometimes people look at you and think that's all you are instead of letting you show what you can do.

[Etienne]

Can we talk about Sister Act 2?

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

Yes. Here's the thing.

[Etienne]

Sister Act 2 is also a miracle, okay? Because sequels usually aren't great.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

That's right. They're never better than the first one.

[Etienne]

They're not. And here's the deal. Sister act is a miracle.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

That.

[Etienne]

That movie I remember seeing, I was very blessed to see that movie in the movie theater, okay? And I think we all left thinking, what did I just watch? Because whatever it was, it was good.

[Podcast Host]

Yes, okay.

[Etienne]

And then, you know, you hear about the sequel, and there's a bit of a nervousness. There's a wondering, is it gonna be any. Are we going back to get a second bite at this apple? But when you watch it, it is so grounded in a way. And also, you're playing the mother to, you know, probably someone could argue, one of the greatest voices you know of a generation, Lauryn Hill.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

Let me tell you something.

[Etienne]

Please.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

That scene at the piano when they're singing, His Eyes on the Sparrow.

[Etienne]

Come on.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

Right before that scene, before they shot that scene, I walk in and the two of them are there just singing so beautifully.

[Etienne]

Oh, wow.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

And I'm listening, and then Lauren says to me, she says, miss Ralph, you know, I'm gonna make it. I'm gonna be a star. And.

[Etienne]

Come on, Miss Ralph.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

I love it. She's a baby. She's 16.

[Etienne]

I see.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

And she says to me, I'm gonna be a star. I'm gonna make it. And I'm gonna have a band. And the name of the band is Fugees. The Fugees. And I said to her, sweetheart, you are definitely gonna be a star. You are gonna make it. But I don't know about that.

[Etienne]

Fugees, A little method. I don't know if the Fujis are gonna pay your bills, but you're great.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

But you're great.

[Etienne]

You're fantastic. What did you think when you read the script? How did it come to you? And were you apprehensive about it?

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

No, because once again, the director, Bill Duke, wanted me. I was really Worried because I had just had Etienne, because Etienne was very young and, you know, you always think that I've just had a baby. What am I gonna look like? How am I gonna handle it? How am I gonna do all of these things at one time? And we were able to make it happen. And he would come to set with me.

[Etienne]

Wow.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

Yeah.

[Etienne]

And also I'm curious to know what you did to bond with Lauren to make sure you two had such a real honest and grounded chemistry. Cause you do.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

She and I just bonded. She was, you know, she. At that time, she was very close to her mom. Her mom was there on set. I would watch their d. All I had to do was interact with her. It was just a. It was just a good thing. All I had to do was think about my mother. My mother wasn't a villain. But when I told my mother that I was going to study acting, that I wasn't going to be a doctor or a lawyer. You're going to be an actress. Lord have mercy. You're going to use our hard earned money. You're going to stay around those fake and phony people? No, Lord God Jesus, no.

[Etienne]

Wow.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

When my mother did not want to come to the Tony Awards, when I got nominated and had to sit behind my father and I. But when she heard my name called from the stage as a nominee, the one Sherri Lee Ralph. That's my daughter right there. That's my daughter. You know, I.

[Etienne]

So you had a Florence in your life.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

Exactly.

[Etienne]

Wow.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

I understood that.

[Etienne]

Wow. Because it's such a beautiful moment when you're not delivering lines, though, when you come and sit down and watching it again, I realized how powerful that scene was. Cause I think I was waiting for the famous lines and I was, you know, almost waiting for that scene at the very end when you two talk and you hug. But that scene when she comes and sits down and is sort of humbled by her daughter's gift. I was really blown away by your performance in that moment. And I just feel like you leap off the screen every time. And that's the moment I think is also put into our memory is this redeeming moment where she says, maybe I'm wrong. Such a beautiful performance.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

Thank you.

[Etienne]

Thank you. Thank you for that.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

My mother was wrong. And she was so happy when we redid her house.

[Etienne]

All right, we're move to something I'm really excited to talk to you about. Can we talk about Moesha?

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

Oh.

[Etienne]

I mean, come on. I went and I watched the pilot.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

Yes.

[Etienne]

And I remember watching that in real time, as a young black girl. It was a big deal. The next day at school, everybody was talking about it. Dee is a stepmother.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

Right.

[Etienne]

And there's an immediate rivalry between Dee and Moesha, clearly. And we see the dynamic between you and her dad as well. You two trying to figure out, okay, how do we do this? How do we figure this out? And there's a great scene between you and her father and another great scene between you and Moesha. What did you do to prepare for that character?

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

For me, that, once again, that was another great experience. I remember getting a phone call from.

[Etienne]

Ralph Farquhar, who I love dearly.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

Ralph Farquhar has done an amazing job of putting a lot of very talented young black and a few brown folks on.

[Etienne]

Absolutely.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

In the industry.

[Etienne]

We love him.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

He was able to open a door, and he didn't close it for himself. He left it open to bring others in with him.

[Etienne]

Absolutely.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

But he called me and he said, I got your next job.

[Etienne]

Ooh.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

And I was like, okay. He says, you got to meet this kid. And I said, okay. And they set up a meeting to do a chemistry.

[Etienne]

Oh, wow.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

Meeting between Brandy and I.

[Etienne]

Another great vocalist. Another great. The Bible.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

She was about 14 years old, sitting up in my room.

[Etienne]

Come on.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

And that was. That was that. You know, I remember what it was like to be young and people dislike you because you wanted to wear braids. And here now I'm doing this show with this young woman with her braids, loving her family, missing her mother and trying to grow up. And I said, the only thing I can do as this character, Dee, is love this child. Yeah, that was it.

[Etienne]

It's such a great line when you say, you know, your dad loves you, your brother loves you, and.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

And I love you.

[Etienne]

I love you too. And I'm also curious how it felt to be in front of a live audience, finding that character with Brandi, with the rest of the cast. But also, multicam is a very different schedule.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

People don't understand that you go in, you rehearse.

[Etienne]

You do. It's like a play.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

Exactly.

[Etienne]

And so were you.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

And then you gotta wait. The way it's shot, you know, those four cameras on a line, and you can't just give your line and then move on. Which is the interesting thing, because when you're on stage, you give your line. It's like throwing a ball. They catch it, they throw it back. They throw the ball back, you catch it. When you're doing a four camera sitcom, you throw the line. You wait for that Camera to catch you.

[Etienne]

Right.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

And before you carry on, to get that next line from the other person, for them to get that line from that other person. You know, that was an interesting transition for me from four camera acting to what we're doing now with Abbott, which is much more like a play because those cameras are everywhere now. When we started doing Abbott, it came to a moment where they. Where Randall Einhorn, our director, executive producer, he said, you can do everything. So now do nothing. Just do nothing.

[Etienne]

Wow. And I was like, that's hard.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

I was like, I'm an award winning actress. You want me to do nothing? You know, I carry that with me all the time now. I carry that with me. Just not. I won't say take it down. Just let it be.

[Etienne]

Yeah.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

Cause you got it.

[Etienne]

Yeah.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

You can do this.

[Etienne]

Yeah.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

Now just let it be.

[Etienne]

That's so interesting because now I'm thinking back on, obviously, I've been watching you a lot, obviously, these past, just really in preparation for this. And I see how you're able to adapt, obviously, from film to multicam to single camera work as well. And that's what I'm really noticing, is that you fit into all of these different places. I'm curious to know, what would you say is something you have to know about acting on stage? What's one thing that you feel like you had and you knew that made it so you were able to survive being on stage?

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

I wanted to win.

[Etienne]

You wanted to win?

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

I wanted to win.

[Etienne]

Is that what you're taking with you every single time?

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

You. Every single time. I want to make it. I want to be here. I want to be something that, like you and me sitting here. The kid who watched me on tv, who's now sitting here talking with me as a woman about my journey. I wanted you to see that anything was possible for you. Because I've been through the fire. I see this little light here. I've been through that fire, and I've made a road. I made a way. But I only took up a journey that was being built before for me. I was. I'm literally just carrying on on the road, you know? And it's like when I see you, I see Issa, I see Quinta. I'm like, look at my daughters.

[Etienne]

Yes.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

Look at my kids.

[Etienne]

Yes. We're your children.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

Yes. Look at them. I'm a good mother, baby. You are.

[Etienne]

Mother is mothering.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

Okay.

[Etienne]

What would you say you need as a film actress? I'm curious because we've seen you in film and we've Seen you be very grounded and very real, but also very specific. What are you thinking about? Is it still that winning mentality when you step onto the set of a film?

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

First of all, you gotta be prepared, right? The number of people that come to a set not prepared. And sometimes they're not prepared because nobody prepared them. You know, sometimes people just put people out there because of something and it's like, can you let them know what it is, is required or is expected of them? Can you help them? And then sometimes I've learned now, you don't need to help everybody.

[Etienne]

That's right.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

Because not everybody wants your help. So I always want to say to people, I'm not antisocial. I just can't be about that drama.

[Etienne]

That's right.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

I just can't. So I just, I stayed by myself.

[Etienne]

That's why you look so young.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

You know what?

[Etienne]

Okay, thank you.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

But another thing that I would say about acting is don't act, right? Don't act. Learn your lines, understand the character. Now be. Yeah, just go ahead and be. And when you do that, you can be anything.

[Etienne]

Speaking of being, there was a window of time between Moesha before Abbott happened that you were working steadily and we were seeing you, you were always ever present. In between that time, I was curious, how did you continue to hone your craft while maintaining your innate confidence during those windows of time when, say, you're not going to a show every single.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

Day, you know, there's a song in a chorus line where the character says, she's a dancer. And she says, God, I'm a dancer. A dancer dances. I'm like, God, I'm an actress. An actress acts. And if they're not choosing me, then I choose me. I'm not stopping. And I wrote a one woman show during that time. You know, it was difficult. You know, you got two, you're divorced, you got two kids that you gotta put into school.

[Etienne]

Two amazing kids.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

And you've got to try and make sure that their life is. You know, sometimes you get divorced and your life drops off things. Everything's changed. You lose, you know, you lose your relationship, you can lose your house. I've seen people lose everything out of a divorce. And I'm trying to hold it together and you know, it's getting scarce and I'm afraid. And I said, I've got to act. So I write this one woman show and it's called Sometimes I Cry. And I was crying, baby, woo. I was in a space, come on. And I started writing these real women stories. Around HIV and aids, real women that I knew. So I would start telling their stories on stage and I would become all these different characters. People started hearing about it. I was being booked on college campuses across the country and I was surviving. But you know what I was really doing? I was keeping myself working as an actress. I was keeping my family together. I was keeping my children feeling safe as they could be. That's what you do when they don't choose you, you choose you.

[Etienne]

Come on, that's the bar we needed. That's why we have these conversations.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

Thank you.

[Etienne]

Because our mission is to make sure people understand not just the personality, but your process. And it's clear that your process is to continue being in the work. And I think that shows up up so much in your work.

[Podcast Host]

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[Etienne]

Now, we come to a very happy place now, which is an amazing school with amazing teachers called Abbott Elementary. Yes, Barbara, what was the first call? When did you get wind of it and how did you feel after you were at the pilot?

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

You know, it was so interesting because so many things were happening all at the same time. I had done a series for CBS called Fam. And one day on the lot, my daughter is with me and she's walking and she stops and she says, mommy, that's Quinta Brunson. And you have to meet her. Cause she's gonna be somebody.

[Etienne]

Come on. Come on, Ivy.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

I'm like, okay. So I meet Quinta Brunson. That that's what happens.

[Etienne]

How was that meeting?

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

You just said, oh, it was great. You know, I'm saying hello. And there she was, this tiny, wonderful little person, you know, and my daughter had seen her because she was an Internet sensation with these. There you go. So I didn't know what buzzfeed was.

[Etienne]

As long as we know it.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

She knew what it was, and she was so thrilled.

[Etienne]

Oh, yeah.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

So that time passes. There were two writers on the show, two Joes on FAM who go off to write another pilot. Now, I have heard about another pilot that is being done at abc, and I really want this show. So I pass on their pilot because it's about some ghosts.

[Etienne]

Okay. Okay.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

So I pass.

[Etienne]

Ghosts do well sometimes. Go ahead.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

I'm gonna connect the dots for you. So I pass on that pilot, okay. After thinking, thinking, thinking about it. Then I get number two in this ABC pilot.

[Etienne]

Okay?

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

Oh, my God, I'm thrilled. I want to do it. It's gonna be great. They have this scene where my husband has done me wrong. And the woman walks in and says something to me about my man. And somehow I end up jumping over the pe and it is all over the church floor. I said, I want to have that scene. Anyway, Covid happens the day before. We're about ready to roll. So Covid dies down.

[Etienne]

Yeah.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

Guess what happens the ghost series gets picked up, of course, on cbs.

[Etienne]

Okay.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

And I passed on it. And then our show is not gonna go forward. And I'm like, oh, my God. I've made all these poor choices. These poor choices.

[Etienne]

You're doubting your instincts.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

Thank you.

[Etienne]

So thank you. Why are you doing that?

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

I'm in that Covid post. Covid space. Doesn't even feel like me. Doggone it.

[Etienne]

No.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

So I'm in this space of, what have I done? And I get a call from Quinta Brunson.

[Etienne]

Come on, let's go.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

Who says, Ms. Ralph.

[Etienne]

Ms. Ralph.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

She don't call me that anymore.

[Etienne]

She just calls me Cheryl. Look what happens. Okay, okay.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

She says, Ms. Ralph, I know that you don't audition. I know you're used to people offering you things. That's your career now. I know this. But would you like, meet the team and blah, blah.

[Etienne]

I've been there before, Quinta. I know this conversation. I know this conversation. You're talking to a ledger. You're like, look, please, please. Come on. I need you. We gonna make it happen.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

We gonna make it happen. Yes. So I end up reading not once, but twice for her.

[Etienne]

It's okay. Come on.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

And it was the right thing to do. Cause when I got that call, I was. I knew it was going to be great. I knew it was going to be wonderful. There was a moment during the pilot, Tyler and I looked at each other, and I said, you feel it, don't you?

[Etienne]

Come on, my guy.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

Thank you. I said, you feel it, don't you?

[Etienne]

He knows.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

And he said, you know, too.

[Etienne]

Y'all both been on some shows that have worked.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

And here we are.

[Etienne]

Wow.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

Going into our fourth season.

[Etienne]

Come on. And it's a juggernaut. You won an Emmy for your performance. Rightfully so.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

Another shocking moment.

[Etienne]

Not shocking to anyone, but you took a nap.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

Because I was truly shocked. Like, I was speechless.

[Etienne]

I mean. Well, you gave a great speech.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

Thank you.

[Etienne]

Okay. Emmy speeches are important.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

Yeah.

[Etienne]

Yeah. What I wanted to talk about was this undeniable chemistry that you have with Quinta. I think there's sort of our actual mothers that we have in our lives, and then there are women that kind of feel like our second mothers or women that we kind of wish could have been our mother on Abbott. I'm watching Mom. And Taraji's character is the mother Jeanine has, and Barbara's the mother that Jeanine needs. How much conversation are you guys having about what these two characters need from each other and what you guys can do to Continue to keep it fresh. Funny. And it's always heartwarming, too.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

We don't talk much about it. We don't talk much about it. It's truly one of those experiences that is on the page. The script comes, it is there. And then when we interact with each other, something else happens.

[Etienne]

Right?

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

And it's always a good something else for me. When I look back at certain things, when I look back at the relationship I have had as an actress and as a human being with a young Brandy in the formative years, Lauryn Hill and now Quinta. I look at a Lauryn Hill in the formative years. When I look at Quinta in the formative years, I think I'm the right woman to be in the right place with these women and the characters that they play. And it has been amazing for me. Wow. Because I get to do what I do. Not only do I act, but I do get to mother. I do get to be the person that you look at and say, okay, I get that. And all of us, we had our moments, all of us, where you bump heads and you're like, wait a minute. All of that. But it's never. It's never a bad thing, but it's always out of love and respect and growth.

[Etienne]

It's so real. I think Etienne said something really great. He said a lot of great things yesterday, and we were talking, and he said, I think she's so good at playing a mom on screen because she does it so beautifully in real life. And it's true. Last question. What would you say is the definition of a really good actress?

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

Oh, my God. First of all, you've got to know yourself. You got to know who you are. You have to like yourself. Somewhere inside of all of it, you got to like yourself. You have to pay attention. Because I feel my ability to do different characters is I pay attention to people. I like people.

[Etienne]

Yeah, clearly.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

I watch them. You'll see yourself in a character I play.

[Etienne]

Come on.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

Because I pay attention. I'll never forget one time I was so sad, so hurt. I didn't think it was happening the way I thought it would happen. And Rosalind Cash. I met Rosalyn when I was 16 years old in Jamaica, and she came from Film Festival. She said to me in talking, what do you want to be? I said, I want to be a great actress. And years later, it wasn't happening. I thought. And she said, what did you tell me you wanted to be? And I said, I want to be a great actress. She said, and that's exactly what you are. So this star thing, this celebrity thing, that's something else. But great actress, you're on your way. So don't get confused about all of those things. Really pay attention to your craft. Because a great actress, you just don't roll out of bed and become a Viola Davis. You just don't roll out of bed and become an Angela Bassett. You just don't roll out of bed and become a Halle Berry. You just don't roll out of bed and become a you.

[Etienne]

Look, I wouldn't be saying your own name, okay? Because you do not roll out of bed and just become Ms. Cheryl Lee Ralph.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

Thank you.

[Etienne]

And every quality you described, you have that and so much more.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

Thank you.

[Etienne]

And you did accomplish that dream of being a really phenomenal actress. You've been mothering all of us for so long, and we're so grateful for it.

[Cheryl Lee Ralph]

And I love my children, all of them.

[Podcast Host]

You love us unconditionally. Thank you.

[Etienne]

Thank you for this. Thank you for talking to me.