Building a Legacy with Taraji P. Henson

Summary

Legacy Talk with Lena Waithe: Building a Legacy with Don Cheadle

Episode Release Date: August 5, 2025

In this illuminating episode of Legacy Talk with Lena Waithe, host Quinta Brunson engages in a profound conversation with the esteemed actor Don Cheadle. The discussion delves deep into Don's illustrious career, his creative processes, memorable roles, and the personal experiences that have shaped his journey in the entertainment industry. This comprehensive summary captures the essence of their dialogue, highlighting key moments, insightful reflections, and inspiring anecdotes.

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1. Early Career and Beginnings in Sitcoms

Don Cheadle reflects on his initial foray into the acting world, primarily through multi-cam sitcoms. He shares anecdotes about his early days, the challenges of being typecast, and his aspirations to be recognized as "the funny girl."

• Don Cheadle (00:44): "I thought that's what my career was gonna be. I came out here to be the funny girl."

Quinta Brunson discusses her research into Don's early work, expressing admiration for his dedication and the authenticity he brings to his roles.

• Quinta Brunson (01:31): "It's such an honor, really, to be talking to you and to go on this journey of some pieces of your amazing career that you're still building."

2. Transition to Dramatic Roles and "Baby Boy"

Don elaborates on his pivotal role in the film "Baby Boy", highlighting his collaboration with John Singleton and the profound impact the character had on his personal life.

• Don Cheadle (04:01): "You do the scene and he was like, my God, you're really good."
• Quinta Brunson (09:38): "This character's name is Yvette, right? And I think what's so stunning about you in the movie..."

He recounts the emotional connection to his character Yvette, drawing parallels between the film's narrative and his real-life experiences, including the tragic loss of his son's father.

• Don Cheadle (07:XX): "This dysfunctional relationship was actually like... I had to let a little of my pain bleed through hers."

3. Notable Roles and Performances

"Hustle and Flow"

Don discusses the creation and significance of his role in "Hustle and Flow", emphasizing the chemistry with co-actor Terrence Howard and the film's cultural impact.

• Don Cheadle (16:32): "It's the first time we get to see you and Terrence Howard, like, together."
• Quinta Brunson (16:53): "How did it feel to have that chemistry?"

He shares firsthand experiences from the Sundance screening and the overwhelming response the film received.

• Don Cheadle (22:11): "At Sundance, there were people standing in the aisles. Make me white."

"Talk to Me"

Exploring his role in "Talk to Me", Don highlights the importance of working with director Casey Lemons and the depth of the character he portrayed.

• Don Cheadle (30:34): "I was more me asking her questions... something special from a female director."

"The Curious Case of Benjamin"

Don reflects on working with director David Fincher and the meticulous attention to detail required for his performance.

• Don Cheadle (32:07): "The crew, actually, every time I would come, it was... he was going to shoot it until he got it right."

"Hidden Figures"

Portraying a historical figure in "Hidden Figures", Don emphasizes the responsibility and emotional weight of bringing a real person's story to the screen.

• Don Cheadle (54:00): "I have to meet her. I have to meet her."
• Quinta Brunson (55:52): "How did that affect your performance emotionally?"

4. Voiceover Work in "Minions: Rise of Gru"

Don ventures into voice acting with his role as Bell Bottom in "Minions: Rise of Gru". He describes the creative process and the fun of bringing an animated character to life.

• Quinta Brunson (60:25): "How did you go about creating that voice and character?"
• Don Cheadle (60:53): "I threw in the get up on the downstroke and they loved it."

5. "Empire" TV Series

Discussing his role as Cookie in the landmark TV series "Empire", Don shares insights into the character's development, his collaboration with Terrence Howard, and the show's cultural significance.

• Don Cheadle (51:43): "It made me pop culture. People started learning my name."
• Quinta Brunson (67:35): "How did 'Empire' change your life?"

6. "Abbott Elementary" and Collaboration with Quinta Brunson

Don delves into his role in "Abbott Elementary", highlighting his dynamic with Quinta Brunson and the intricacies of portraying Jeanine's mother on a critically acclaimed TV show.

• Quinta Brunson (75:06): "What was the conversation like that you had with Quinta about having to play her mother?"
• Don Cheadle (75:39): "She teaches us how to show grace in our roles."

7. Awards, Recognition, and Personal Reflections

When discussing his Oscar nomination, Don expresses the surreal experience of fame and the importance of his support system, particularly his interactions with Brad Pitt and personal losses.

• Don Cheadle (41:40): "I have to inspire somebody. I'll never forget when my aunts took me to see the Wiz on Broadway..."
• Quinta Brunson (43:35): "But I think that's beautiful."

He underscores the significance of empathy in acting and his commitment to portraying complex, multifaceted characters.

• Don Cheadle (64:41): "Once you understand the why, then the pressure is off. It's like, oh, she's a real person."

8. Personal Legacy and Impact

Throughout the conversation, Don emphasizes his desire to create meaningful art that resonates with audiences, inspire others, and maintain a balance between fame and personal authenticity.

• Don Cheadle (62:22): "I think that's what makes you a great actress. A great actor."
• Quinta Brunson (80:18): "This work has really cost you something. I can feel that."

9. Memorable Quotes and Highlights

• Don Cheadle (74:25): "That's legacy. That's legacy. You entered just the way a Shug Avery would have."
• Quinta Brunson (79:10): "And that’s what you do. You remind us that we can get through anything."

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Conclusion

This episode of Legacy Talk with Lena Waithe offers a deep dive into Don Cheadle's artistic journey, revealing the personal sacrifices, emotional depths, and unwavering commitment that define his legacy. Through candid conversations and heartfelt reflections, Don shares not just his triumphs but also the challenges that have shaped him as an actor and as an individual dedicated to inspiring generations to come.

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Note: All timestamps correspond to the provided transcript and serve to highlight key moments in the conversation.

Transcript

[Taraji P. Henson]

The Best Unfinished Business, a novel by Malcolm D. Lee with Jane Allen, reunites the beloved characters from the Best man movies and hit television series for a sexy and soulful, heartbreaking and hilarious reckoning in love. The story follows Harper, Jordan and Robin as they try to establish lives away from the hurts of the past and come to realize that some love is impossible to break. If you love love, a spicy second chance romance later in life, love one that got away story. This one is for you. Taye Diggs calls it the perfect summer read and full of heat. The Best Unfinished Business, a novel by Malcolm D. Lee with Jane Allen, is available wherever books are sold.

[Don Cheadle]

Lemonade? I said, you better give me this role because Christmas is coming and my son needs some toys and I don't have a job.

[Quinta Brunson]

That's why you're at Four brothers.

[Don Cheadle]

Me and Angie watched all your movies. I said, all of them? He said, yeah. I said, baby boy. He said, yeah. I said, talk to me. He said, of course, my man Don Cheadle in that. And I was like, the next scene, she's had an abortion. That's just who I am as an artist. I'm gonna go there. Are you trying to make me cry again?

[Quinta Brunson]

I'm not. I'm just telling you the truth about yourself. Okay.

[Don Cheadle]

Thank you so much.

[Quinta Brunson]

Jesus. Legacy.

[Don Cheadle]

Oh, legacy first.

[Quinta Brunson]

Thank you, thank you, thank you for doing this.

[Don Cheadle]

Are you kidding me? Ow.

[Quinta Brunson]

It's such an honor, really, to be talking to you and to go on this journey of some pieces of your amazing career that you're still building, which is also amazing to think about. So here's what I will say. I thought that I knew where I would start this conversation because I always start with the first time I seen the person or something, the first thing that really broke a person. So I thought I had that and I'm like, ready and writing it down. And then I continue to do my research and I realized, oh, I was wrong. Where I thought I saw you for the first time. I was incorrect. The first time I saw you was actually on a multi cam sitcom called the Parenthood.

[Don Cheadle]

Oh, okay.

[Quinta Brunson]

Yes. Season four, episode seven, Fast Cash.

[Don Cheadle]

Yes.

[Quinta Brunson]

You play Zaria's friend.

[Don Cheadle]

Yeah.

[Quinta Brunson]

Da Brat also is guest starring on that episode on that show.

[Don Cheadle]

Yep.

[Quinta Brunson]

I've talked a lot with the actresses that have sat here about multi cam comedy.

[Don Cheadle]

Mm.

[Quinta Brunson]

I've never gotten a chance to do it. What was that experience like for you being on Robert Townsend's set of his sitcom?

[Don Cheadle]

Well, first of all, I thought that's what my career was gonna Be. I came out here to be the funny girl.

[Quinta Brunson]

Wow.

[Don Cheadle]

I was a single mother at the time, and when I first moved to la, I was staying with a cousin who happened to be on a show called Minor Adjustments. He was one of the kid child actors. And I was like, oh, my God, you have to get your SAG card or whatever to start working. So I had another friend, Cindy Khali, who was on Third Rock from the sun, and then my cousin was on that show. So I was like, I can do some extra sag, extra work. So within three weeks, I had my SAG card. So. But being on those sitcoms, I was like, this is what I need as a mom. This is the job I need. It's like banker's hours, you know? And I really came out here to be the funny girl.

[Quinta Brunson]

What's the most difficult thing about multicam acting? If you would say?

[Don Cheadle]

It's not difficult for me because I trained in theater, so in front of a live audience is where I thrive. You know, it's the call and response that I love. But you asked about being on the set with Robert Townsend. Like, I was like, you know, when you're starting off, you always like, this is the one. I'm gonna be a star off of this. You know, I thought that about every little thing I did.

[Quinta Brunson]

You're like, this is it.

[Don Cheadle]

This is it.

[Quinta Brunson]

I'm good.

[Don Cheadle]

Yeah.

[Quinta Brunson]

So I've told you this before about the time. Remember this? When I went to go see Baby Boy in the movie theater.

[Don Cheadle]

Yeah.

[Quinta Brunson]

You're such the heartbeat of that movie in so many ways. It's a long movie. It is a heavy movie, but it also has so much humor in it as well. I'm curious how the role came to you first.

[Don Cheadle]

I miss John Singleton so much. So a friend of mine, we started this boot camp for Bill Duke years ago. I'm one of those actors, like, I have to create. I have to be creative all the time. So if it's not. If I'm not on set, I'm on stage somewhere. Like, I have to do it. And, you know, I was new, you know. Again, that was after Parenthood, or I don't even know how to. If I booked. Yeah, I had Parenthood on the boat. This was like a lull. I hadn't really worked in a while. And so we decided to start this boot camp because, you know, we were artists and we needed something. And we talked to Bill Duke and he was like, absolutely, if you can put it together, we'll do it. And we did it at the Hudson Theater on Santa Monica Avenue. And, you know, it's Bill Duke. So he would call some of his comrades in to come and talk to us. And I'll never forget, when John Singleton came, we went on break. You know, you do the class and the personal talk, and then you go on break. And I just remember everybody swarming him. And I was like, I'm not gonna swarm him. I want him to know me from my work. And so I never went over to him or anything. I said, he's gonna see me when it's time to see me. Sure enough, back in the day, we used to get the breakdowns. That's how I knew what was coming out. And I'll never forget, I saw emboldened, capital letters. He asked for new faces only for this project called Baby Boy. So I called my manager. I was like, are you all over this? We got. I got a. And so I went in. Kim Harden was casting, and I went in and I read for her. And she was like, hmm, you know, you're really natural. You're really good. I'm gonna bring you back in for John. And I went and I sat down, and he said, I remember you. And I was like, you do? He was like, yeah, I taught you. I came to speak to that class, Bill Thew's class, and he said, you were the only one that didn't come over to me. It worked. Not that I was even trying to do anything. I mean, I just. I meant business, you know what I mean? And I wanted him to respect my work, not just, oh, some girl that came up to me at a class, you know, he remembered that. And so we did the scene, and he was like, my God, you're, like, really good. Like, then he called me back in. No one told me I was coming in to read with Tyrese. So when I got to his office over in Crenshaw, Larchmont, to be exact. I park my car and I go inside, and Kim Harden's like, okay, you'll be reading with Tyrese. I said, what? With who? I said, do I have time to go back to my car? I had to go back to my car. Cause, you know, this is Tyrese, the Coca Cola dude, you know? So I had to go gather myself. Then I went back in. And when I went back in, some young lady had just come out from her read, and I got water, and the water tank was in the back of the room. And so I was like, do you mind if I get some water while you guys set up and John was like, yeah, go ahead. And I could hear Tyrese saying, yeah, you know, I'm not an actor. I need somebody that's gonna challenge me, that's gonna. You know, that. That's gonna bring me up to their level. And I was like, drinking my water. So then we go, we do the audition, which, you know, that audition kind of went viral at one point. And I'll never forget. I remember what he said. And, you know, I'm trained, so I can do it with the paper or without. I can ad lib. I'm off the cuff. I can. I'll fill it in. You know, fill in the blanks, whatever. And so it got to that point where I saw him, like, freaking, like, going off the paper. And I just went at him, and I felt him going with me. And all of a sudden he was like, fuck you. Fuck something, something. And I jumped up, and he threw the keys at me. And the next thing you know, I just ran across the stage and jumped on his back. And then John was like, cut. And everybody was like, wow, that's it. That's it. That's it. But what I told John was like, this dysfunctional relationship was actually like. I felt. There were times when I read that script where I got goosebumps. And I had to put it down, because it was literally the blueprint to my baby's father and I's relationship. That young love, that young toxic hood love. I mean, verbatim, like the scene where she's crying. Cause she keeps dreaming about Jodie dying. I remember when my son's father was murdered, I called John and I said, the dream came true. He was like. After I called, after I called my family and the people, you know, in my family that I had to let know. He was the next call. And he was like, what? I said, yeah, it came true. And me going to the funeral with my son, like that, when everybody. When anyone goes, the closest role to you, that probably was it. And I kind of got chastised a little bit. Cause people were like, where did they find her? She's not a real actor. They found this girl off the street. And for so long, I was known as that girl from Baby Boy. Like, no one would know my name. They was like, that's that girl from Baby Boy.

[Quinta Brunson]

This character's name is Yvette, right? And I think what's so stunning about you in the movie is that watching it again, I'm reminded of the experience of all the events. I was really. I love John Singleton, of course. May God Rest his soul. He's tapped in on Baby boy.

[Don Cheadle]

Mm.

[Quinta Brunson]

There's some. I really do implore people to go watch that one again and not just let it be on. Because we can do that. Because the movie, we know it all, we know all the lines. But when you have to really sit and pay attention to it about what's happening, about what we're watching, it's a documentation of black life. And you represent what it is to be a young black woman in that.

[Don Cheadle]

World and what that young toxic love looks like.

[Quinta Brunson]

And how do we. Why are we drawn to toxic love? Is it because it's all we know? Is it because it's all we've seen?

[Don Cheadle]

It's Mom.

[Quinta Brunson]

Exactly. That was the thing I realized, too. I got to have AJ on that conversation while she's gardening and she's talking to you and you're like, why won't he act right? Like, what's going on?

[Don Cheadle]

And another thing that. And this is what I loved with John. Cause he was so trusted me. I was like, how come the baby moms never interact? So I was like, John, we don't need.

[Quinta Brunson]

I'm the little girl and she comes and she's screaming.

[Don Cheadle]

When she goes, I said, we don't have to say a word, John. No, we don't have to say a word. And he did it. We did it. And I just pulled my shirt and showed the tattoo, like, which is also a hot mess. Hot mess.

[Quinta Brunson]

And also the other baby mom's mom with the baby smoking cigarette and the music playing loud. She knows what's going on. Baby boy is Shakespearean.

[Don Cheadle]

Please.

[Quinta Brunson]

The fucking flashbacks in the womb and.

[Don Cheadle]

Then the next scene. She's had an abortion. Seeing the boy in the casket. How many black mothers, girlfriends have that? Come on. It happened. It came true in my life, like, hmm.

[Quinta Brunson]

It costs you something.

[Taraji P. Henson]

The Best Man Unfinished Business, a novel by Malcolm D. Lee with Jane Allen, reunites the beloved characters from the Best man movies and hit television series for a sexy and soulful, heartbreaking and hilarious reckoning of love. Book one of the Best man trilogy follows Harper, Jordan and Robin as they try to establish lives away from the hurts of the past and come to realize that some love is impossible to break. With support from their close knit crew of chosen family, Quentin, Shelby, Lance, Merch and Candace, they fight for a future that proves one second act can be the extended chapter worth it all. Tia Williams, best selling author of A Love Song for Ricky Wilde, calls the Best man an utterly propulsive, stylish read with so much heart now, if you love love, a spicy second chance romance later in life. Love won. That got away story. This one is for you the best. Unfinished Business, a novel by Malcolm D. Lee with Jane Allen, is available wherever books are sold.

[Quinta Brunson]

There's something I noticed about your performance in that movie that you sort of suck your thumb as a way of self soothing. And it really hit me because that's something my sister and I used to do when we were younger.

[Don Cheadle]

I used to suck my thumb too.

[Quinta Brunson]

And to see that on screen, I think also sort of connected me to you, to the character, in a way. I was curious if that was your choice, if it was total John. Wow.

[Don Cheadle]

But the he Don't Love Me no More was mine. Wow.

[Quinta Brunson]

Talk about a heartbreaking, gut wrenching scene to play. What was it like being directed by John Singleton?

[Don Cheadle]

It was amazing. John was the one who made me understand that my gift was in my eyes. You gotta remember, I came from theater, so I was big and I could fill the space and make sure the last person in the back of the house could feel my presence. So I came here really with that. At every audition, they would be like, it's good, it's good, but just bring it down. But I didn't know what that meant until I met John. And John was like, taraji, you're so pure, all you have to do is think it. And the camera is right there. The camera's gonna do the rest of the work. He was the one who picked that up. He also noticed my humor and my comedic timing. Cause he called me Lucy. That's what he called me, Lucy. And I studied Lucille Ball, I studied Carol Burnett. I also studied Bette Davis. And his mother called. She's been calling me Bette Davis Eyes since I met her. Wow.

[Quinta Brunson]

It's so interesting you say that because as you pulled up today, as we were all waiting patiently, excitedly, I was standing by the window, just sort of going over my questions again. And the car pulled up and you got out with the sunglasses and the hair and the coat. And I was like, yeah, we too have Joan Crawford's. We too have Bette Davis's. We too have that. And it's not even about comparing us to whiteness, rather, but to say that we have our own.

[Don Cheadle]

Yeah. And you gotta remember, like, growing up, we didn't have those examples. So I had to defer to, you know, Bette Davis and Lucille Boba, because that's what we had. Yeah. You know, and they were getting the roles that intrigued me. The things that I said, I want to do that one day, you know, Diane Carroll, you know, but did she get all the roles she should have gotten? You know, so I had to fill it in some kind of way.

[Quinta Brunson]

Yeah, it's so, so. And I love what you said about that because that's the thing that really gets me about Baby Boy is that one minute I'm really just sucked in and locked in. That's my. I'm laughing.

[Don Cheadle]

Yeah.

[Quinta Brunson]

Cracking up. And I just think that's such a rare thing. And so did you find it. I don't wanna say easy, but you find it natural to play in both of those sandboxes in that film?

[Don Cheadle]

Yeah, absolutely. I'm always gonna add comedy to anything I do. I don't care how serious the role is, because that's life. You know, we could laugh at one thing and in the next breath we're crying about the same thing, you know, and that's a three dimensional character, in my opinion. And I probably should have done standup comedy because the. The humor really is an armor to hide. And that's most comedians. But that's what that is for me, you know, and even my characters will lean onto something funny because they don't want you to see too much, you know.

[Quinta Brunson]

That's beautiful.

[Don Cheadle]

It's always added.

[Quinta Brunson]

That's real. You mentioned a movie that I'm excited to talk about next that I felt sort of shifted things in me and I think in the industry in a big way. The way it was shot, the way it was performed, and the energy that came with it. And I'm talking about hustle and flow.

[Don Cheadle]

Oh, yeah.

[Quinta Brunson]

It's the first time we get to see you and Terrence Howard, like, together. And I was sort of thinking about you two because chemistry is a hard thing to describe and to talk about, but there's just sometimes a magic that happens between two actors that we continue to want to see. I think about Angela Bassett and Laurence.

[Don Cheadle]

Fischer and Laurence Fishburne.

[Quinta Brunson]

Yep. I think about you and Terrence in that way. What was it like the first time you two were in a scene together?

[Don Cheadle]

I'll take you back to the audition, which happened at the same location that Baby Boy did. Isn't that crazy? Larchmont. John Singleton's office.

[Quinta Brunson]

Of course.

[Don Cheadle]

I remember John sent me these, and I got something for him. I got something. Lucy, I need your eyes. I need your eyes. So he sent me the script. He said, you pick. I don't care which character you pick, but I need your eyes. Shook just jumped into my heart because she was the diamond in the rough. She was the one that I knew. I wanted people to see her and want to do something. Help her, save her, hug her, something, you know? And she was the mouse who found her voice. And I was like, that's who I want. And he said, good. Cause that's who I wanted to play. And so he calls me in, I go audition. This is funny. Memphis Hot summer pour. My face was greasy. My hair was sticking up all over my head. I put a pillow under my shirt. You know, I did the whole thing. Killed the audition. Terrence was looking at me like, who is this? And kill the audition, right? But John called me and was like, taraji, you killed that shit, Lucy. But you can't be looking that gutter. I was like, john, come on. They lived. Like, they're poor. Like, it's hot. She's eating crackers, she ain't got no money. Like, that's not a glamorous role. I had to fight them to not wear makeup. You know, that's just who I am as an artist. Like, I'm. I'm going to go there. I don't care if it's toothless. I'm blacking my teeth out. Like, you know, that's just. I don't. Isn't. I don't do it for glamour. I do it for the people who need to see themselves. And I know that girl needed to see herself.

[Quinta Brunson]

I mean, truly, what was so fascinating to me was just how drastically different I'm going from obviously, almost one extreme to another. What. How did you. Did you prepare differently for that character? Because your voice, obviously, how you're speaking, the way in which you're speaking, obviously the character's pregnant. And then eventually you have to sing. So what was the preparation. How was it different on Hustle and Flow than it was, say, for Baby Boy?

[Don Cheadle]

Well, Baby Boy, again, was very close to me.

[Quinta Brunson]

Right.

[Don Cheadle]

You know, for me, it was about the vulnerability and how much of my own skeletons I wanted to share. Right? And I had to be. I had to lean in, you know, I had to let a little of my pain bleed through hers, you know? Now shug. Totally different. Not my experience at all. I grew up in D.C. but my. I used to. My mother used to ship me down to the summer, to the country every summer, if you know what I'm talking about, dude. I mean, the day school's over, my shit was in the trunk. Bye. Bye. Cause she needed a break. And I would go down there and I would spend my summers with my grandma, and I would Be the only. I got a big ass family, but why was I the only one to get sent down the country from. From the city, city girl to the. I'm talking. You can't see your hand in front of your face at night. That country. Back roads, dirt roads, no street lights, no lines in the road, just a road. And I used to fight it. I used to say, please come give me a board. I cried. But that's where I was my most creative. That's where I would live and work these different characters in front of the mirror because I had no one else to play with, you know, And. And. But now that I'm older, I'm so grateful I had those moments because those Southern women that I spent time with, I use in all of my characters, especially characters when I have to play a Southern woman. I'll never forget Craig Brewer. We were just about to film the first scene, and somebody was coming to the house. Shug was opening the door. And I remember I looked to the left and. And I saw a bottle of baby powder. And I was like, wait, hold, hold up. And I took the baby powder and I put it here and I said, okay, I'm ready. We did the scene. Craig got up from Video Village. He was like, you are so fucking brilliant. But see, I wouldn't have known that if I didn't spend time in the summer. I mean, time in the south in the summer, because you don't want to chafe, you know, women, the thick thighs, you know, and so if I stayed in the city, if my mother kept me in the city, I wouldn't have known that one little detail.

[Quinta Brunson]

Wow. So you're really speaking about how you use life as your. Just what you pull from your toolbox because. And also that my grandmother's a Southern woman, so she would do the powder. So it's those things that we see ourselves in. You keep bringing us with you onto the screen. Now, I talked about Hustle and Flow being a big cultural like shift. I feel like you're a part of things that move us forward. Could you feel that on set? And after the movie had come out, could you feel that energy surrounding Hustle and Flow? Cause there was a lot of energy surrounding that movie.

[Don Cheadle]

I knew it was special, but you never really know what you're doing until it is about to come out or it comes out right. And so when I knew we had done something special was when went to Sundance. And I remember JetBlue now, every seat was sold. It was, everybody's going to Sundance. And I Just hear everybody. Hustle and flow. You heard about Hustle and Flow? You heard about Hustle and Flow, And I'm in the sequel. Then we get there, and we screen the movie, and you talking about 1,500 seats, standing room only. There were people standing in the aisles. Sitting in the aisles. Make me white. And when Whoop that trick came on, you could see the fist. I'm talking about Marge with white hair and her husband Billy Bob sitting there. And they're like, what that chick? And I was like, what the fuck have we done?

[Quinta Brunson]

It's hard out here for a pimp.

[Don Cheadle]

It's hard out here for a pimp. Then we get to the Oscars, and, you know, I get to sing this song.

[Quinta Brunson]

I mean, what also was that like singing at the Oscars?

[Don Cheadle]

Okay, that was weird. Singing about pimps and hoes.

[Quinta Brunson]

Look, I enjoyed it, though. Being a young person watching that ceremony.

[Don Cheadle]

It was a little strange.

[Quinta Brunson]

But you know what? It just meant that this is art as well.

[Don Cheadle]

Absolutely. Absolutely.

[Quinta Brunson]

And it should be acknowledged, it should be celebrated, and it should be respected.

[Don Cheadle]

Yeah. But Craig said something that meant the world to me. And simultaneously, my dad was on his deathbed, by the way, two weeks before I got to sing. And my father told me, since I was a little girl, you gonna be one of the greatest actors in the world, and you're gonna win an Oscar. He always kept telling me I was gonna win an Oscar for playing Diana Ross, because he always said I looked like her. But he was telling me that since I was a little girl. And, you know, I remember calling him when we knew we didn't have long, and I was like, dad, I made it to the Oscars. I didn't get nominated, but I get to sing. And he was like, you know, it's hard for us when it comes to stuff like that. He said, but, baby, I'm proud of you. So two weeks before the Oscars, I. You know, they called me home. They was like, he's not going to make it. And I remember taking him the letter, and he. At this point, he couldn't even respond. You know, his liver, all his organs were failing him. And I just remember him looking and reading, and his eyes were fluttering, and he had this deep smile on his face. But simultaneously, I look over, my son is sliding on the floor because this is his hero. Anyway, he didn't get to see me sing, and I had to compartmentalize his death, you know, So a lot was going on when I was on that stage. I had to smile and grin and get through it. But I remember leaving and slipping into because I didn't have time to deal with, and my father died on me in the room. Like, I was the one who had to release him. Wow. And so that's. Whenever I think about the Oscars and stuff like that, it's always some. I can't say always something. But, you know, that always is a double hurt because my dad never saw it. He never got to see me. He never got to see me to get the Oscar that he always told me I would get, you know?

[Quinta Brunson]

Well, I'll tell you, that performance is one that I think no award could ever even honor what you're doing on that screen. Because, yes, you're trained, and it's obviously craft, but it's also something that I think is God given. And it's just a beautiful. It's just a beautiful performance.

[Don Cheadle]

Thank you.

[Quinta Brunson]

Can we talk about four brothers?

[Don Cheadle]

Oh, yeah.

[Quinta Brunson]

It's funny, I noticed that Ruth Carter did the costume design for that.

[Don Cheadle]

Mm. And she also did for Baby Boy.

[Quinta Brunson]

What was that experience like working with. I think of her as an icon.

[Don Cheadle]

First of all, A black woman in that position just was like, whoa to me, you know, I'd never seen anything like it. And I never forget she designed my outfit that I wore to the premiere. Baby Boy Premiere. Wow. I went to her, I was like, I have this idea. She was like, what is it? And she put it down. I still have it.

[Quinta Brunson]

I was curious, how were you different walking onto a set with John Singleton on that set than you were the first time you did?

[Don Cheadle]

Well, we're friends now. You know, at this point, it's like, what's up, John? You know, where we going for dinner after this? You know, I had to beat him up for that role, actually. They didn't want to hire anyone from the States, you know, saving money. They. Because we filmed it in Toronto.

[Quinta Brunson]

Right, right.

[Don Cheadle]

So they wanted to hire a Canadian act. I said, now, listen, you put Tyrese in another movie, and then you not gonna put me in a movie. First of all, you put him in Fast and Furious. Like, I would beat him up over so much stuff. He said, lucy, your audience is gonna want more from you. This role is too small. I said, I don't believe in small roles.

[Quinta Brunson]

I don't either. That's why we're talking about it right now.

[Don Cheadle]

Yeah. I said, I don't believe in small roles. I said, you better give me this role, because my son. It's Christmas is coming, and my son needs some toys. And I don't have a job.

[Quinta Brunson]

Oh, that's why you're a.

[Don Cheadle]

Basically, okay.

[Quinta Brunson]

I love that movie.

[Don Cheadle]

But again, I do my thing. And they started writing more because I don't believe in small roles.

[Quinta Brunson]

Oh, so it wasn't that. So it grew after you got cast or once you were on set?

[Don Cheadle]

After I got cast. Once they started, you know, once they started seeing what I was doing with the characters, they started writing a little more here, a little more there.

[Quinta Brunson]

What was it like working with Andre 3000?

[Don Cheadle]

Oh, my God, that man takes my breath away. I just love him as a person. He's so not affected by. And he was like, to me, the biggest star on the set, to be quite honest. But he would be like, yo, what you doing? Let's go to the movies. And I'd be like, okay. And he picked me up in his rental car. He didn't stay where all the other guys stayed. He stayed in the little lofts off the beaten path. And he and I would get lost in the streets of Toronto and he would pull over and be like, yeah, mate, can you tell us how to get to the amc? And then they would be like, go down here and turn. As soon as they figure out who it is, we. We take off. Like, I. He really made me see that I didn't. I didn't have to be affected by all of the stuff, you know, that you could still be who you are. And because I consider myself regular, like, I don't. People put that stuff on us, you know, I still do my own grocery shopping.

[Quinta Brunson]

Is it just like you staying close to your own humanity?

[Don Cheadle]

Absolutely.

[Quinta Brunson]

To find someone else's in the character.

[Don Cheadle]

That'S the only way.

[Quinta Brunson]

Wow.

[Don Cheadle]

If I'm above it, how can I. How am I transformed in any way? You know?

[Quinta Brunson]

Yeah. There's another movie of yours that I loved so much when I first saw it in the movie theater. And I still think about it to this day, and I was happy to go back and spend some time with it. It's a movie called Talk to Me.

[Don Cheadle]

Oh, so glad you brought this one up.

[Quinta Brunson]

Casey Lemons for me is. She changed my life. I mean, her work with Yves Bayou just changed me. How did this role come to you? How did you hear about it?

[Don Cheadle]

I heard, okay, let me see if I can get this. It was so much going on at the. But I remember getting this script, and I was like, I have to do this. I'm from DC. Like, this is my jam. Like, I'm a 70s baby all the way. Like, what? This is a no brainer I did all my research, and I walked in there, and I know I nailed it. I said, this belongs to me. And I didn't. And day after day, I didn't hear that. I got it. I called Craig Brewer. I called John Singleton. I called everybody. I was like, you call Casey and tell her it's.

[Quinta Brunson]

Call your girl.

[Don Cheadle]

Call her and tell her it's me. And then when I spoke to Don Cheadle, Don Cheadle was like, I was telling her it's her. It's her. So that one didn't come easy. I thought I was scrappy about that one. Wow.

[Quinta Brunson]

What was it like being directed by Casey Lemons?

[Don Cheadle]

Amazing. Like, I think at that point, that was the first time that I was directed by a woman, to be quite honest.

[Quinta Brunson]

Wow.

[Don Cheadle]

And I mean, it's Casey Lemon, like, what? And it's Don Cheadle. What.

[Quinta Brunson]

I mean, you're leading me to my next question. What did you learn from her as a director?

[Don Cheadle]

I mean, just women. Our approach is very nurturing, you know what I mean? The way that she wanted to show men, black men love on each other, the highs, the lows, like that. I think only a woman could portray that. You know what I mean?

[Quinta Brunson]

I think it's just beautiful to watch you and talk to me. I remember watching it, but then when I watched it for the first time.

[Don Cheadle]

I watch it tonight, I'm telling you, it holds up.

[Quinta Brunson]

It's amazing. And you just feel. You feel held the whole movie.

[Don Cheadle]

Thank you.

[Quinta Brunson]

Thank you. It's amazing. Now we come to a movie that I think is such a triumph, and it's an epic, really. And I got to see it in the movie theater. The Curious Case of Benjamin.

[Don Cheadle]

Wow. Yeah.

[Quinta Brunson]

What a. Just a stunning piece of cinema. The work you're doing is really obviously layered and just, I think, timeless. I think that performance is Queenie getting a chance to watch it again. I get to see even more details in your performance. Did you know about the short story before.

[Don Cheadle]

Before the script came to you? No, I did not. Until I got the script, and I was like, wow. They built this whole world around this little bit of a story that blew me away.

[Quinta Brunson]

What was the David Fincher experience like?

[Don Cheadle]

Amazing. Like, he pays attention to the leaf on the tree behind your head. Like, once he's got your performance, he's like, wait a minute. Can we. Like, he's looking at every. The crack in the wall. Like, I don't think I've ever worked with somebody who was that paid attention to like that, because usually that's that's scripty. Oh, what's that weird thing? No, that's David Fincher. And he's gonna shoot it until he gets it. But what I realized is that the crew, actually, every time I would come, it was. I had to work. They were like, yeah, we're gonna go home early today. Because for some reason, he didn't do as many takes with me.

[Quinta Brunson]

Wow, wow, wow, wow. I mean, your performance is just. It's just pitch perfect. What were you thinking about every day when you were coming to set? Because I was wondering if you had a vocal coach. Because it's period. It's New Orleans. Okay, so you did. You had someone helping you with the accent. Was that. Cause you're doing so much in that performance. How much is your brain, like, just spinning when you're on set, trying to be grounded and real? But also you're doing so many things at once.

[Don Cheadle]

For me, it's the preparation.

[Quinta Brunson]

Okay.

[Don Cheadle]

Once I have the character, once I know who she is, I throw it all away and I'm there. I've done so much work because that's a certain period. Women held their bodies differently. Like, it's just a different mindset. This woman and her. She dealt with. She lived with death. Yes, yes, she lived with death, taking.

[Quinta Brunson]

Care of the elderly.

[Don Cheadle]

I mean, I did so much research because that's like one generation away from or just not years off from slavery.

[Quinta Brunson]

Correct.

[Don Cheadle]

You know, and so I had done so much research that by the time I got to set, I was there.

[Quinta Brunson]

How much in terms of research, how much time did you have to do that research? And what is that research consisting of?

[Don Cheadle]

Oh, like I said, I listened to. You know, they had this. Remember, there were the recordings of actual slaves.

[Quinta Brunson]

Yes, the slave narratives.

[Don Cheadle]

The slave narratives, Yes. I listened to that again. Remember, I spent my summers down South. Them women, you smelling yourself, you know, so that Southern woman, I know her. Cause I spent summers with those women. So I brought that in, researching the slave narratives, the music of that time, you know, Bessie Smith. I mean, I listened to all of that music, doing research on what it is to take care of elderly. What does that look like? People shitting on themselves and you gotta clean em up. And death like living knowing that somebody's going to die today.

[Quinta Brunson]

Right. And I think there's also a warmth that you bring and you give them dignity.

[Don Cheadle]

Oh, absolutely. This I'm probably the last person they're going to see.

[Quinta Brunson]

Exactly.

[Don Cheadle]

Some have been put in there, forgotten about by family, you know, and the fact that he really cast A lot of elderly people. A lot. A lot of the cast make it to the. You know. What was it? The Sergeant George, the one that would raise the flag.

[Quinta Brunson]

Yeah. Naked.

[Don Cheadle]

Naked. He passed away before the premiere. He had to cast recast one of the grandmothers, and she didn't make it. Like, it was a lot, but it was amazing. I have an affinity for elders because there's so much wisdom. They have so much to share and just. Just so much life, and then just praying that I get to see the years that they've seen, you know? And it's crazy because I had already lost my dad. I was losing a cousin when this happened. And I'll never forget the day that we filmed Queenie's scene when she. The funeral. And I was in the casket. That was the day I couldn't make it to my cousin's funeral. And I remember laying in the casket, and they. You know, they aged my hands. And the. The. What is it? The prosthetics kept peeling up on my left hand. And I kept saying. I kept calling makeup over. I was like, my hand is peeling because I know Fincher would see it, even though I'm in the casket. And I remember we rapped, and I called my aunt, and I was like, hey, you know, how did the funeral go? She said, everything was beautiful. She said, but, you know, rigor mortis sat in his left hand. Wow. Wow. And that was my cousin. He used to do drag shows, and it was my responsibility to find him shows. When he came to la, I mean, we were like this. And I'm so glad that when I went home before I had to go back to filming that I went and I looked into his eyes and I kissed him on his forehead, and I said, I love you. I love you so much. And he was in and out of consciousness, and I just remember him looking at me smiling. And so I didn't feel guilty about not being able to go to the funeral, but we were there. Like, my hand, his left hand, like, what?

[Quinta Brunson]

That's such a common thread of, like, a spiritual connection between what's happening in your life and what's happening in your work. And I think that also, I think, speaks to why the work kind of lingers with us, and I think sticks to us in a different kind of way, because it's not just craft, but it's you. Pulling it costs you something.

[Don Cheadle]

Yeah.

[Quinta Brunson]

This work has really cost you something. Yeah, I can feel that. And I'm deeply, deeply grateful for all the sacrifices you continue to make for the work that you do.

[Don Cheadle]

Thank you.

[Quinta Brunson]

First time seeing Mahershala Ali in this movie.

[Don Cheadle]

Yeah.

[Quinta Brunson]

He's such a stunning actor, obviously. He really is. He deserves those two Oscars. What was it like working with him?

[Don Cheadle]

He's just. He was perfect. He was as gentle as that character needed to be on and off screen. Just a gentle man. Just a. When I say it's one thing to be a gentleman, but a gentle man. And he pulled out the softness of Queenie, you know, it was beautiful to see this woman be soft and beautiful when her man comes to visit her after taking care of Boston. You get over here and let me watch you put that da, da, da. And then her gets so soft when this man comes like that. It was just so beautifully written. It really was stunning. He was perfect.

[Quinta Brunson]

Yes.

[Don Cheadle]

I was like, we gonna know you. And then look.

[Quinta Brunson]

But that's the special thing about, I think, going back and sitting with these movies. Because obviously I'm going back looking at you, but then I see. I'm like, marshalla. What? And just being, you know.

[Don Cheadle]

Yeah.

[Quinta Brunson]

Amazing. And seeing you two being beautiful scene partners.

[Don Cheadle]

Yeah. It was so fun working with him.

[Quinta Brunson]

What was it like working with Brad?

[Don Cheadle]

It was fun. I'll never forget when we. The first day. Cause, you know, they were. He was on the Oscar run for some other babble, I think. And so he had been gone. So he comes and we hadn't seen each other since the table read.

[Quinta Brunson]

Wow.

[Don Cheadle]

And now Queenie's age, so he hadn't seen me and my makeup and everything. And we do the scene and they yell, cut. And he looks at me. He gets up and he goes over to David Finch. He's like, where the hell did we find her? She's incredible. Fincher tells me this later. So cut to. We put the movie in a can. We come back and we had to do reshoots, like about a year later or however many or whatever it was. And so he said, yeah, I know you now. And I was like, what do you mean? He said, me and Angie watched all your movies. I said, all of them? He said, yeah. I said, baby boy. He said, yeah. I said, talk to me. He said, of course. My man Don Cheadle and that. And he was like. And then to see you like this, he was like.

[Quinta Brunson]

And I was like, I love that he did that.

[Don Cheadle]

Me, too. That made me fall in love with him even more because he's a real guy, you know? He's a real. I don't even think people realize how real this guy feeds the homeless. And you Never hear about it.

[Quinta Brunson]

No, he's our generation's like. Again, you talk about classic iconic movie stars. He's one of those guys. But then I also think of like Mahershala Ali. I think about Don Cheadle and you also being one of our greats.

[Don Cheadle]

Thank you.

[Quinta Brunson]

Just being able to play with them and to lock in with them. I'll see also Terrence Howard as well. I want to bring that in. Just you're able to get into these scenes with these leading and really show your prowess and show that, like, you're not in competition, but you're doing a beautiful dance. It's so beautiful. Obviously, that film earned you an Oscar nomination. Yeah, rightfully so.

[Don Cheadle]

Thank you.

[Quinta Brunson]

What is it like to be nominated for an Oscar?

[Don Cheadle]

It's crazy because I remember them going, okay, now get prepared. And I wasn't prepared for what it was like. Now they're gonna make the announcement. Now if they call your name, there's gonna be car waiting outside of the door and you gotta run, get dressed, you gotta go out there and gonna do interviews. And I'm like, what am I doing? Like, am I running for Congress here? Like, what is happening? Like, that's what it felt like. And I was enjoying it because again, I still had the rose colored lenses on and I didn't realize how political. I didn't get it then because I think I got shooed in because of Fincher. Brad Pitt.

[Quinta Brunson]

Brad Pitt, that whole squad.

[Don Cheadle]

Right. So I was like, oh, my God, it's because of my work. Yeah, it's my work. Absolutely. But I learned later that it's the team. It's your work. Yeah, of course. But a lot of times if you. You can do the work, kid. Figures. And if you don't have the team.

[Quinta Brunson]

And you mean team on the team.

[Don Cheadle]

Publicity. The engine. The machine.

[Quinta Brunson]

The engine of the film.

[Don Cheadle]

Yes, got it.

[Quinta Brunson]

And that was a. I mean, that film was beautifully done, but also a part of a very big machine.

[Don Cheadle]

Very big machine.

[Quinta Brunson]

And I just remember you being a part of that and how significant that was for so many of us. You being at the front row at the Oscars, you being nominated.

[Don Cheadle]

Brad made sure I was. He was the sweetest. He just made sure I was taken care of. I'll never forget Kim for that. And I will love him forever for that. He literally held my. Every time I lost, he would grab my shoulders. Are you okay? And I'm like, I'm fine. I'm just having fun. I'm happy to be here, you know.

[Quinta Brunson]

But I think that's beautiful.

[Don Cheadle]

Yeah.

[Quinta Brunson]

You sort of need that support.

[Don Cheadle]

Absolutely.

[Quinta Brunson]

Especially from someone like him saying, yeah, welcome, you're here.

[Don Cheadle]

When I we presented at the SAG Awards, he held my hand. I mean, he was another gentle man.

[Quinta Brunson]

Come on, we're gonna go back to TV now. Uh, which I love. I'm a TV lover. I love movies, but obviously I love tv. And very rarely do TV shows come along that sort of capture everybody's attention. It's just hard to do.

[Don Cheadle]

Yeah.

[Quinta Brunson]

And. And also, very rarely are those TV shows with predominantly black cast. That's even more difficult to do, it seems like. But with the introduction of Empire, everything changed. It was like a new day. It was like a freight train had sort of come that we'd been waiting on but didn't know we were waiting for it.

[Don Cheadle]

Yeah.

[Quinta Brunson]

How did Cookie come into your life?

[Don Cheadle]

I didn't want to do it. Let me just back up a little bit. So I had left person of interest, because creatively, I just. It wasn't it. And I remember talking to Nolan, I was like, please, I'm just not happy. And, you know, I just. And he was gracious enough to get me out of it.

[Quinta Brunson]

Wow.

[Don Cheadle]

And I thank him to this day. And because I didn't even do it, I literally. I was questioning whether I wanted to act anymore.

[Quinta Brunson]

Wow.

[Don Cheadle]

I just felt like TV was very corporate. That's how it felt. And I was like, this is not why I did. So I went to do a play in Pasadena. I literally wanted to disappear. But the very opposite happened. Did this play above the fold. It was original piece about the reporter of the guys at the Duke University that got blamed for raping this girl and come to find out they didn't rape her. I played the journalist, and it was an original piece. And I didn't think anybody was gonna come in. This is not a theater town. It's not New York. You know that show, that theater made their money back in the two preview nights. When I tell you people were coming from miles around coming to see this play, Tell God your plan and you. He could, he could, he could. It's like, please tell God your plans, honey. Cause it's gonna be the total opposite. Cause I literally didn't expect anybody to come see this play every night. Sold out every night. Fox kept sending execs to come to the play. My manager at the time was like, you gotta go meet Fox. They're at the gate. And I'm like, why are they keep coming. I told you, I don't wanna do this show. I Don't wanna do tv. I'm done with tv. He was like, please, please, go meet them. Go meet them. And so finally, after they kept coming, I was like, let me. I'm in a play. Like, I have lines to learn.

[Quinta Brunson]

I'm busy 8 shows a week out.

[Don Cheadle]

Of some, you know. And so I was like, all right. I was tired, you know, exhausted. And I came home one day, I was like, let me read this damn script. So I'm reading the script, and I'm like, this is stupid hip hop tv. And then Cookie gets out of jail. And I'm like, wait, now. So I was like, okay, okay. But as I was reading it, I saw Terrence Howard. I said, this is Terrence Howard. This is Lucious. If Terrence does this, I'm in. And I remember Lee Daniels was overseas promoting the Butler at the time, and he called me on Skype. Cause we had sky. No zoom at this point. And I remember saying, look, I really don't want to do tv, but this character is very interesting. If you can get. But I see Lucious. I see Terrence Howard as Lucious. If you can get him, then maybe. You got me. Okay, bye. Click close the computer. Then later, Lee was like, this bitch cookied me. Cookied. He said, this bitch cookie me. Cause I literally didn't care. I. I so was done with tv. And so finally, he got Terrence and he said, you were right, bitch. And I was. Because the chemistry we already have.

[Quinta Brunson]

Yeah.

[Don Cheadle]

You know, as a director, that's half the battle right there.

[Quinta Brunson]

Yeah. To believe it.

[Don Cheadle]

So. And then that's how that was born.

[Quinta Brunson]

Wow. So, okay. I didn't realize Terrence was your idea. I don't know if you've told this.

[Don Cheadle]

Story before, but Terrence was my idea. I was like, it's gotta be Terrence Howard, or you don't have me. I don't wanna do this. I'm not interested. If it's not Terrence.

[Quinta Brunson]

What are you thinking about actually, as you continue, like, as you paint Cookie?

[Don Cheadle]

Well, I was nervous because, you know, she could be hated. She calls her gay son the F bomb. You know, she beats her son with a broom. But the thing about why I'm interested in characters like that is because if you play the why, then you will gain the empathy from the audience. But if you just play loudmouth, sassy, black bitch, you're gonna lose. You're gonna turn everybody off. Right. But there was a why. This woman was the way she was. She. Okay, if you remember in the first, when they started doing the flashbacks. They was cutting coke together in the. In the garage, right? When she got in the car and said, I think we. I think it's. I think we've been sitting. I think this is a sting opera. Remember? She was like, something don't feel right about this. They both should have gone to jail. Why did only she go to jail? Because this is what I chose. And both Danny Strong and Lee Daniel was like, oh, my God, we never even saw this. But see, this is the job. This is my job to bring the why. She chose to go to jail because he was the talent. If he had gone to jail, she would have been another black woman with three black boys in the hood who would have mostly become statistics. So she did it to save her family. That's why when she came out, it was about my company. My. This, my. I did 17 years for your ass, you know, and for them boys. And so when he calls her a Bitch, I did 17 years for you. And that's what makes her snap, right? The F bomb is because she's just gonna say what it is. And a lot of people thought I got the cookie from a woman, but it was actually my dad. My dad didn't have a buffer.

[Quinta Brunson]

How did you keep Cookie fresh for yourself?

[Don Cheadle]

Oh, my goodness. Just keep finding the why. I just kept finding her why. There were times when I would clash with the producers, and I'd be like, she would never do this, guys. You have garnered so much respect. This care. Like, I'll never forget when she walked in the meeting. Remember when she comes into the executive meeting with that coat on, Kiss my black ass. I remember getting men, men in my comments saying, oh, my God, I have this board meeting tomorrow. I wish I had the balls to go in there. Like Cookie. When I saw that she had the men, I was like, oh, see, she's a hero, and I have to keep her integrity. And there were things that they would try to throw at me, and I'm like, I can't. That's not gonna ever fly. We already have their respect. We have their trust. We can't break that. You have to think about all the characters. I live and breathe and sleep Cookie every night. That's my job. And trust me, I know this woman. We would have directors come in. Why would you try like that? I can't try it like that. She cemented. And so it was always just kept finding the why, why, why. Why would she do this? Why is she saying this? Why? I was like, this woman at some point has gonna have to go to therapy, as I was finding therapy in my life.

[Quinta Brunson]

Wow. How did Empire change your life?

[Don Cheadle]

It made me a rock star. It made me pop culture. Right. I was getting called Yvette for a long, long time. And then, you know, people started to see my work, and so I was Yvette. Yvette. Yvette. Yvette. Cause at first it went from that girl from Baby Boy. Then it became Yvette. Then people started learning my name. But then Cookie changed it. It made me very pop culture. And I remember I figured it out one day we were in some part of Chicago filming, and I guess word got out that, you know, Empire was in the hood and the people were chasing the van. And I'm like, who the fuck are they chasing? And they like, you bitch. They like, Cookie, Cookie. They banging. And I'm like, please, y', all, stop. Somebody's gonna get hurt. Like, you know, when I started going places and people would recognize my voice, I was like, whoa. And I've always been kind of under the radar because I had a kid, you know, I always looked up to Regina King. I always looked up to her because she's a big star, but she always floats under the radar. Right? And so I want it to be like that. I want it to be like I want everybody in my business. I don't. I still like going to pick up my own eggs and produce, you know, I like being normal, you know? And so I wanted that. I still wanted to hold onto that, but Cookie changed that for me.

[Quinta Brunson]

Nah, it was giving and like black Beatles.

[Don Cheadle]

Yeah, it was kind of crazy.

[Quinta Brunson]

Yeah, that's the thing. But that's what I love. I think you've been a part of so many things that kind of make us sit up and pay attention and lean forward, and it's just so beautiful to see these projects come again and again and again. We're gonna go back to the movie theater now.

[Don Cheadle]

Okay.

[Quinta Brunson]

And, you know, I really love a period piece, but sometimes with black folks, when we do period, it can be traumatizing to play people who had it rougher than we did. But this movie is one that everybody loves. As I was watching it again, I had it on the living room, and everybody kind of stopped to watch it. Talking about hidden figures.

[Don Cheadle]

Oh, yeah. Hidden figures.

[Quinta Brunson]

Did you feel the weight of that responsibility immediately having to play someone?

[Don Cheadle]

Yes.

[Quinta Brunson]

That significance? Yes.

[Don Cheadle]

And the fact that she's still alive and she has a family that's alive. I remember when Ted Melfi sent me the script, and I was like, is this real? Is this fiction. And he's like, no, this is a real story. The first thing I asked was, are these women still alive? And he said, katherine still is. I said, I have to meet her. I have to meet her. I have to meet her. And so sure enough, they set it up and I got to meet her. And I was just blown away by her elegance. She struck me as royalty. It was something about the way she held her, the dignity. One other thing that I really. That kept sticking out to me. When she would talk about the women at NASA, she never said, I, we. She's the one who did the numbers that got them into space. But she kept referring to us, we. The joy behind her eyes. When she would talk about teaching other young kids about numbers, like, she lit up and she remembered it like it was yesterday. Wow. And then just when I got there and her family just welcomed me with open arms, that took a little bit of the pressure off because I was like, okay. No one had to beat them over the head to get them for them to okay me to play. They, like wanted me to portray her. Right. And so when I sat there, I just watched her mannerisms and I just woot.

[Quinta Brunson]

The first thing I want to talk about is how tricky is that for you to really be playing a living ancestor and that you have to be in the shoes of a person, of a black woman who is being treated like a second class citizen. What is happening for you emotionally, even though you're really good at compartmentalizing, how is that for you as a black woman of today who's still dealing with things that we have to deal with, but then stepping into the shoes of someone who had to deal with even more. How was it for you in terms of your performance?

[Don Cheadle]

I mean, it's tough when they yell action, but with the sense of relief is when they yell cut. And the people around you are real beautiful people. You know what I mean? That helps. It's like, oh, I was just acting. This is not real. You know what I mean? Because, you know, Jim, who played. He was the real hard ass in the office, is a sweet guy in real life, you know what I mean? And a hell of an actor. But again, when they would yell cut, he was like, olteraji. You know what I mean? Right, exactly. So that's what. And then like Kevin Costner just.

[Quinta Brunson]

Come on. What. What was that experience like?

[Don Cheadle]

Amazing. A true ally, just a gentleman.

[Quinta Brunson]

Come on. What a beautiful theme to have in your career.

[Don Cheadle]

Yeah.

[Quinta Brunson]

These gentlemen keep coming back.

[Don Cheadle]

Wow. I didn't even think about it. Like that. Yeah. Yeah.

[Quinta Brunson]

The monologue that you have the bathroom sequence alone even before we get to. That is really stunning. Our. I always thought that when I saw it for the first time, but then seeing it again, I was really moved by how it was cut now, how your performance is so stunning. But obviously, that monologue is really moving and stunning, and it's very memorable. It's not easy to forget. What were you thinking about that day on set when you were walking to do that scene?

[Don Cheadle]

Honestly, I was going through something very tragic in my life. A loved one of mine was suffering, and we were trying to keep them alive. And so I was running to the phone. My makeup artist had the phone, and I was like, keep them on the line. Do not let them hang up. I said, if we have to figure out if we call 91 1, if the cops show up, they might shoot them. We want the paramedics to show up. So I'm dealing with that. I'm running down the hall. Cause I'm trying to be out of earshot so no one hears. So I'm running down the hall in between takes to keep the person on the phone, and I'm running back to do the scene, and I'm run. This is going on that entire scene. So I don't. I was there, but was I. I mean, you know what I mean? Like, I mean, I knew I had to do the work, and I know her, and she's in me. And again, I have the switch, the on and off. I was present. I did it. And then as soon as they yell cut, I'm running back down the hall. Like, literally. So the running was synonymous. It was.

[Quinta Brunson]

It's just a stunning piece of cinema. Just watching you in the bathroom, just trying with your hands. And then the delivery of that monologue, it just sort of stops you cold.

[Don Cheadle]

That monologue means a total different thing to me because it's the memory of what I was actually going through trying to get through that monologue.

[Quinta Brunson]

Whew. Something lighter?

[Don Cheadle]

Yes, please.

[Quinta Brunson]

Okay. You know, I've gotten a chance to talk to a lot of actresses sitting here about voiceover work. It's so unique. And one of the movies I watched of yours is Minions from the Rise of Gru.

[Don Cheadle]

Yes.

[Quinta Brunson]

And you're Bellbottom.

[Don Cheadle]

Bell Bottom.

[Quinta Brunson]

It's such a great character. And your voice, even though I do know your voice, you found something with this character, and you're having fun, and it feels new. There were a couple times I was listening, I was thinking, like, damn, she doesn't sound Like Taraji, she sounds like this character that she's created. And it's obviously an original character. And you get to, I think, see the image. How did you go about creating that voice and creating that character just with your voice?

[Don Cheadle]

It's a process, you know, like, when you first go in, they don't really. They have sketches and they kind of have, like, how she looks. But once they narrowed down and as they were playing, I was playing, you know, with my voice. And then once I saw her with the afro and the bell bottoms and, you know, her gidget gadgets, I was like, okay, so she's a villain. So the villain has to sound intimidating. And then the 70s. So I threw in the get up on the downstroke and they loved it. And I just played. That's the thing about animation. You can play because it's just you in the booth. There's. Yeah, there's cameras because the director may not be in the same city or the room with you, so they're on a scene, but you get to play. You get to just play until you find it. And I just played and I leaned in, and when it felt right, I was like, this is her.

[Quinta Brunson]

The movie also opens with your character, and she's just so dynamic and so interesting. And I think by the time I got into that movie, I couldn't help but just think about this amazing career and the range and all the things that you've gotten to that maybe some actresses before you, generations before you, would not have gotten an opportunity to have a career like yours. And so I think it's also really special that you get to live out the dream. I think of black actresses that maybe didn't get a chance to do all these different things.

[Don Cheadle]

And that's why I'm very. I take what I do very seriously. It's not for the glitz and glam of it all. I say often I wish I could do the work without the fame. Yeah. I wish I could just go to set and come home and no one knows, you know, because I think that's where people get tripped up sometimes, in the fame. Because that's a lie. That's bullshit. Right? Who am I affecting? Who's gonna leave this theater going? I need to make better choices in life. Who's gonna leave the theater going? I wanna inspire somebody. I'll never forget when my aunts took me to see the Wiz on Broadway and my feet couldn't even touch the ground. And I was like this the whole time. And I was like, I want to do that. Another time, my aunt took me to see Sister Sledge. I was like, and the people and how I felt. I was like, I want to make people feel like that. I want to give people hope. I remember I had to focus, because sometimes when you start comparing yourself, comparison kills. And I was like, I had a real talk with God, and I was like, I want longevity. I want to do the work that people study. I want to do the work that affects people, that changes lives and saves lives, because that's what art did for me. That's what I want to do. And once I got clear with that, I started making those choices. I was like, this is the one. That's why I lean into the characters. That some people might want to run away because who wants. Wants to pay a pregnant hoe? I mean, you know what I mean? Yeah. Or Cookie who beats her son with a brahm and calls broom and you know what I mean? Like, some people might not want to touch that, but I want to bring humanity to these. There's a why someone is like. They are. You have to play the why.

[Quinta Brunson]

Well, you also, I think, bring visibility to people that folks like to ignore.

[Don Cheadle]

You got to be. See yourself. So many people like Shug, before that girl was up on that screen. Where is that girl in life that feels invisible?

[Quinta Brunson]

We can't judge the characters.

[Don Cheadle]

You better not.

[Quinta Brunson]

And that can be very difficult.

[Don Cheadle]

Mm.

[Quinta Brunson]

How are you. Are you able to not judge them because you find the why? Is that how you don't judge them?

[Don Cheadle]

I judge at first. Cause that's what you gonna do, right?

[Quinta Brunson]

Human.

[Don Cheadle]

That's what I was like, I ain't playing this Cookie. She crazy. They gonna. Hey, the NAACP gonna get me. And so. But then once I work that out, then I can focus on, okay, well, then why is she like this? Let's get to the why, okay? Because there's a reason why this woman is the way she is. And so once you. Once I understand the why, then it. The pressure is off. It's like, oh, she's a real person.

[Quinta Brunson]

It's so interesting because I. I can hear the frustration about fame, you know, because, look, if you're doing your job well, it's gonna come.

[Don Cheadle]

Yeah.

[Quinta Brunson]

But also, the therapy and the art is very linked because we have to ask ourselves, why are we doing the things that we're doing that is creating the life that we have? And so you also have to do that at work. Literally, you have to do that with your character to better understand them. But don't you also think that that's a way of living our life. We could have a better world if everybody asked rather than judged people, but rather asked why they are the way they are and how they came to be who they are.

[Don Cheadle]

That's called showing grace.

[Quinta Brunson]

We're gonna come to another Shug and also iconic ip.

[Don Cheadle]

Yeah.

[Quinta Brunson]

You're so brave and courageous. That is in your day to day life. But I think it continues to show up in your work, but also in your choices. How scared were you to play Suge Avery?

[Don Cheadle]

Scared as shit. Cause come on. Then they say I gotta sing a song with Fantasia. What? Okay.

[Quinta Brunson]

Yes.

[Don Cheadle]

I was like, we gonna sing that song. Do we have to? Yes, please.

[Quinta Brunson]

Not going. No. We're not leaving the theater until we hear.

[Don Cheadle]

Oh, my goodness. Listen, I was again. I didn't watch it. I couldn't watch it.

[Quinta Brunson]

Well, you'd seen the movie before, obviously. You just didn't want to revisit it.

[Don Cheadle]

I didn't want to revisit it.

[Quinta Brunson]

Okay.

[Don Cheadle]

You know, it had been a while since I seen it. I hadn't seen it.

[Quinta Brunson]

I tend to watch it a lot.

[Don Cheadle]

You know, it hadn't been on, you know. You know how BET or HBO or something or whatever. It hadn't. I hadn't. I've been streaming a lot, so I hadn't been on those stream on those services, so I hadn't seen it in a while, okay. So I was like, I can't watch it right now, you know, Because I wanted to make her mine. And plus, Blitz's vision was different. He was celebrating our joy. It wasn't about, oh, we've had it so hard. He leaned into the joy, which is our sword, which is our protection, really. It's the thing that the haters want to kill in us, our joy. Even as slaves, we had joy. Jim Crow. We find joy even now with all the mess that's going on right now. We out here learning line dances.

[Quinta Brunson]

Yes.

[Don Cheadle]

Boots on the floor. So it was a different approach. So I didn't want to get the wires crossed. And again, I wanted to make Shug mine. Cause, you know, I ran from her. They had approached me to do it on Broadway, and I was like, hell to the no. I didn't even waste time. I was like, nope, nope. Click. Okay. We can't even talk about it. Nope.

[Quinta Brunson]

Wow.

[Don Cheadle]

And then. But again, what God has for you can no man take. Because I tried to run again, and Shug was like, oh, no, not this time. But I felt more comfortable doing it on film than stage, because I don't sing like that all the time. Can I sing? Yes, I can, but I don't train like that every day. And I just didn't think that my vocal cords would withstand eight shows a week singing at that capacity. I just probably could, but I punked out and said, no, you didn't give.

[Quinta Brunson]

Us that opportunity to sing.

[Don Cheadle]

Okay, Right. So. But she came back to me in a way that I felt comfortable with, all the singing and everything. And so because musical theater is a part of my background, I was excited. I was scared as hell. I was so scared. But again, I leaned into fear.

[Quinta Brunson]

Yeah, clearly, you know, I'm like. Which I love. You know, I mean, it's so iconic. The. Obviously the book, the movie, the Broadway musical, and now the movie musical, which is really important because that means it's always there. The Broadway musical, It's a multiverse.

[Don Cheadle]

Yeah.

[Quinta Brunson]

It's like if you can't make it to the theater, then you kind of miss that. And so now that we have, everyone will always be able to experience the musical version of the Color Purple, which I think is really special and lasting. How was it for you to be on that set?

[Don Cheadle]

It was spiritual. I mean, it was fun. It was alive. I mean, all of those talented, gifted people. And I'm not just talking about the main cast. Yes, the main cast, but the dancers. See, dancers don't get enough credit.

[Quinta Brunson]

Oh, the choreography is phenomenal in that movie.

[Don Cheadle]

And Fatima is something special, Iconic. Everything but the dancers. I have to give them their credit because they kept. They elevated us, they lifted us. You know that scene where that Suge Avery is coming to town? Those babies spin and twirl and danced and plied and backflipped until 6am in the morning. And every time they yelled cut in action, they were just as eager as they were the first take. It was something to see.

[Quinta Brunson]

I love that buildup, the way it was cut, obviously, the way it was choreographed. And Suge is such a iconic character for all of us. And so you got the entrance you deserved. Did you feel like, as an actress, as a woman, you had to arrive to that moment? You had to age to that moment. You had to live through some things to get to Shug Avery.

[Don Cheadle]

I feel like that's why I didn't do it the first time. I wasn't ready. I hadn't lived enough.

[Quinta Brunson]

Wow.

[Don Cheadle]

Mm.

[Quinta Brunson]

Lotta life, though.

[Don Cheadle]

Yeah, a lot of life that now I feel like I could bring something really special to her.

[Quinta Brunson]

Well, you do. And it's really, really stunning. You know, I wanted to Ask you, because you bring so much to your characters. What part of Suge Avery did you keep?

[Don Cheadle]

Oh, her softness. She was. You know, she could have been a hard, bitter woman, but she chose the gentleness in her. You know, men, they sexualized her. She gave so. And I think she reminded me so much of Shook and Hustle and Flo. Now go with me here. Suge and Hustle and Flo was an actual sex worker, right? But the reason why they called her Shug, because she was sweet to the core. She was like sugar. And when she would do the deed, servicing men, in her mind, she thought she was fixing their broken pieces. As broken as she was, she thought, this is how you show love. Right? Things happened to Shug in Color Purple, Right? That could have made her bitter and hard. But again, she showed love through her performances. And not a sex worker, but, yeah.

[Quinta Brunson]

She used what she got to get what she needs to get right.

[Don Cheadle]

But in her mind, that's love. That's her. That's the best way she knows how to show love, you know? And I guess for me, the through line, my middle name means love. I'm always gonna lead with that. And there had come a point in my life when I was becoming bitter with this industry. I could feel it. And I don't ever want the things that I go through in life to harden me, to make me bitter, because I don't think that's what God put me here for, you know? So from Shug, it's her. Her sensuality, her. I mean, even, like, when I go out now, it's like I do a little more than I used to. You know what I mean? Like, thank you, Shug.

[Quinta Brunson]

I mean.

[Don Cheadle]

I mean.

[Quinta Brunson]

And also, what's so great about that character, you know, just from the beginning, is that she's one of those amazing black women that was always fabulous.

[Don Cheadle]

Yes. This so like, rich auntie. Yes. Yeah. That's what I got from Suge. And I hear the kids talk calling me that. I'm like, yeah, New Year Suge era. Exactly. I'm in my Suge era. Exactly. So good.

[Quinta Brunson]

No, I felt it when you got that car. I said, here she goes. She gonna make us wait. I'm gonna be here.

[Don Cheadle]

Come on, Suga. I was ready. I'm telling you, I was ready.

[Quinta Brunson]

Dope. No, no, no. This is actually when I got here, and they said, oh, she run a little bit. I said, as it should be.

[Don Cheadle]

Oh, no, no.

[Quinta Brunson]

As it should be. I'm not a diva like that, though. That's not diva, though.

[Don Cheadle]

Cause I was telling my driver, get us there.

[Quinta Brunson]

It's legacy. It's legacy. You entered just the way a Shug Avery would have.

[Don Cheadle]

Oh, my goodness. I wasn't trying to, though.

[Quinta Brunson]

You're always worth the wait.

[Don Cheadle]

Oh, well, thank you.

[Quinta Brunson]

Last but not least, you know, we come back to tv.

[Don Cheadle]

Yes.

[Quinta Brunson]

And what I think is an iconic television show. I think I can say that even though, you know, four seasons in, it's something that will last and will endure. And talking about Abbott Elementary. Oh, you just. You come onto screen in such an amazing way. You don't need to open your mouth. You do. And it's funny, and it's amazing, and it's human. Right. When we see you, we get a real sense about where Jeanine comes from. I'm curious what the conversation was like that you had with Quinta about having to play her mother in this show.

[Don Cheadle]

Well. Well, I was more me asking her questions. Cause, you know, she's creative writer, and she was, you know, telling me how it was things that she said. Like, she has two daughters by two different men. Okay. One was a musician, and one. What was. One was an artist. One was more streamlined, and one was just like a. Just a horrible dad. Right. Like a musician. You know, they're about that nightlife.

[Quinta Brunson]

Right.

[Don Cheadle]

So that tells me a lot. The fact that she still is relying on her daughter for money. She can't keep her finance. She's just a mess. Okay. One thing that I did bring to Quinta's attention that they wanted me not to wear. And I said, why? I said, quinta wears patterns and colorful things. And I said, who do you think she gets that from? And they were like, oh, okay. You're right. I said, this woman still dances on tables at the club. Like, she probably dates men 20 years younger than her. Ooh. Like, I mean. You know what I mean? She's the kid in that dynamic. She's not the mother. Quinta is. Like, she's coming to ask her for money on her job. She's a woman who doesn't follow the rules. Where's your past? Like, you know, for me, when the writing is good, it's nothing I really have to do. It's there. It was all there.

[Quinta Brunson]

There's something that the character does that I find to be diabolical.

[Don Cheadle]

What?

[Quinta Brunson]

Okay.

[Don Cheadle]

Okay.

[Quinta Brunson]

But it makes me laugh. It made me laugh again this morning. And you go to take a selfie with Jeanine.

[Don Cheadle]

Mm.

[Quinta Brunson]

And she's very happy about it. That you wanna take a picture with her. Oh, my God. And you go to send her the photo. Cause she wants it. And you say, oh, can't do it. Cause I just gotta cut off. You look at the camera, and it's just the whole performance is phenomenal. The Emmy nomination is very well deserved.

[Don Cheadle]

Did not see that coming.

[Quinta Brunson]

And I think what's so great about Quinta is that she's a breath of fresh air.

[Don Cheadle]

That's what made it exciting for me to be on that set. And to know that she created this.

[Quinta Brunson]

Oh, yes.

[Don Cheadle]

Like, from the mud, Right?

[Quinta Brunson]

Come on, Philly.

[Don Cheadle]

Come on. It's like she did this. And for a black woman to do this, like, forget about it. I was proud. Actually. I'm a fan of this show. And how I got on the show was we were competing on that's my jam. Oh. And we were backstage, and I was singing her praises, and I said, girl, listen, I wanna be on the show any. Like, anytime you need me.

[Quinta Brunson]

I love that you did that.

[Don Cheadle]

Yeah. Anytime you need me, call me, girl. Like, I love the show. I'm a fan. If I can help another sister, like, elevate or whatever, like, I'm there, I'm there. Summer Walker called me, was like, can you do my radio show? Yeah. Like, why wouldn't I? You gotta start somewhere. And if you don't get people to help, then how? How will you rise? You know, God put me here for a reason. And it's not to keep it all to myself. It's gotta share it, you know?

[Quinta Brunson]

Yeah.

[Don Cheadle]

And if my little part can help elevate, I'm there.

[Quinta Brunson]

Last question. What's your definition of a great actress?

[Don Cheadle]

I would say a great actress is one who doesn't judge. You can't. A great actress is one who shows and understands grace.

[Quinta Brunson]

Well, I think your work and your legacy up until this moment, as you continue to build it, is a reflection of that.

[Don Cheadle]

Thank you.

[Quinta Brunson]

And I think it's because all of your characters are women who are walking through something, and they're walking through these big storms. Some of their own creation, some that they didn't see coming. But what I love is that you remind us of ourselves when we are having to walk through a storm. And I think the reason why you're an actress that we all love and we want to come see you in things, but you feel like family.

[Don Cheadle]

That's what I get told all the time.

[Quinta Brunson]

You feel familial.

[Don Cheadle]

Yeah.

[Quinta Brunson]

And familiar. And there's a thing about you that we know you're an actress. We know you're a star, but you also feel like someone who can live next door to us or who we knew what we came up with. So when we see you living this life that you had to sacrifice so much for and that has cost you so much, it reminds us of our own greatness.

[Don Cheadle]

Thank you.

[Quinta Brunson]

That's what you do. You remind us that we can get through anything.

[Don Cheadle]

Facts.

[Quinta Brunson]

Yes. And watching your work back to back to back, I got just so emotional about your journey and how much you continue to give. You've had to sacrifice for your gift, so that way the gift would not be sacrificed.

[Don Cheadle]

That's what makes you a great actress. A great actor. Actress. Actor. And leaning into that fear. Don't run from shit.

[Quinta Brunson]

Legacy.

[Don Cheadle]

Oh, legacy.

[Quinta Brunson]

And that's a cut.