Loading summary
Transcript290 lines
- [00:02]
Lena Waithe
Lemonade.
- [00:06]
Yvette Lee Bowser
I knew who I was. I've always been black. Even though I'm biracial, I'm a black woman. A lot of times you'll find as a writer, you're in conversation with yourself, but also with the rest of society. This is what the rest of Hollywood is like. I won't be here long because I'm not one to suffer fools. We belong in every space that we choose to occupy. Everybody was encouraged to be their best selves and to bring what they brought.
- [00:40]
Lena Waithe
Everybody knows that a different world changed my life.
- [00:44]
Yvette Lee Bowser
Changed mine, too.
- [00:46]
Lena Waithe
And I'm excited to hear about how it changed your life. But first, I'm just so curious as to how you got that job.
- [00:55]
Yvette Lee Bowser
Simple. You want to hear the story from the beginning?
- [00:57]
Lena Waithe
Yes.
- [00:57]
Yvette Lee Bowser
Senior year, Stanford University, spring quarter. I'm having a pity party with my best friend Kimberly, because I'm supposed to be graduating, supposed to be going to USC Law school. And we're not feeling it. We're watching the Cosby show like we did for the past three years. It's a Thursday night, and for the first time, I see the name of someone I know in the credits as the credit scroll. Stu Gardner, the composer. And I'm like, what? Wow, that's interesting. I know him. I wonder if he'll remember me. And I wonder if he can put me in contact with someone who might be able to help me explore what I was feeling as this desire to write television. I didn't know anything about what it took or what the pathway might be to such a position. And I just kind of. I took a flyer. I took a chance. I made a bold move. I called NBC in Los Angeles. They gave me a phone number to NBC in New York. They gave me the phone number to the Kaufman Astoria Studios in New York, where they were shooting the Cosby Show. And I tracked down Stu Gardner, and I thought I was going to have to remind him who I was, because I knew him and his children when I was very young, like younger than 10 years old. We lived in the same apartment building in Hollywood, and I was friends with his son and his daughter, who were like cousins to me. So he was kind of like a play uncle. But when I was growing up, we were also quite transient, so I didn't know that he would remember me. But we kind of took to each other as families pretty quickly. And it just so happened that he remembered me. And he called me back, and I said, I have this desire to write for television, but I really don't have any ends. And I don't really have any knowledge about what that'll entail. And he said, well, I happen to be heading your way. I'm headed to the bay in a couple weeks to meet with Dr. Cosby, who's shooting a movie, the now classic Leonard Part 6, in Oakland, just across the bay. So I met him there, and he introduced me to Dr. Cosby, and I made an appeal. Said I have this creative energy that has to be tapped, like a total crazy person. And he's like, there ain't nothing for you out here. Go to law school. And I said, but I really feel like this is my calling. This is my purpose, to tell stories. I've been a storyteller as long as I can remember.
- [03:33]
Lena Waithe
What was it about television that spoke to you?
- [03:37]
Yvette Lee Bowser
Just its mass appeal and how far reaching it was, to be completely honest, you know, and also that I didn't really see myself there, but I wanted to. And I was raised on television. I was a latchkey kid. You know, it's like I was raised by my mother and that television, you know, so wanting to see the kinds of relationships and the kinds of characters that I enjoyed seeing reflected on the TV but in brown and hues of brown, was something that I just craved.
- [04:13]
Lena Waithe
What was missing that you did bring into the writers Room for a Different World?
- [04:15]
Yvette Lee Bowser
What I brought was that incredibly fresh, youthful voice, like someone who had just graduated from college was now sitting in the room on a show that took place at college. So I knew about the protests. I knew about the relationships that we had with each other. I knew about the community. Like I was there. I felt like I was sent there to speak for my generation.
- [04:42]
Lena Waithe
True. And it's interesting because you did go to a pwi. I totally went to a predominantly white institution. For those that don't know, obviously A Different World is focusing on a fictitious hbcu. You have Debbie Allen at the helm, you know, being the sort of voice for the HBCuers. Susan Fales Hill, who was Susan Fales at the time, as a Harvard graduate.
- [05:02]
Yvette Lee Bowser
My girl.
- [05:03]
Lena Waithe
Yes. And I'm curious to know how you brought a different perspective to the room as well, coming from Stanford.
- [05:11]
Yvette Lee Bowser
Well, again, I was bringing the most recent college experience to the room, as well as a willingness to be vulnerable and tell not only stories that I'd written about in my journal, but to rip pages from other people's journal, tell all their business, change their names to protect the guilty. They know who they are and just reveal all. And reveal our humanity also through humor, which was really Important to me.
- [05:38]
Lena Waithe
What season did you come into?
- [05:39]
Yvette Lee Bowser
The different Season one.
- [05:40]
Lena Waithe
Season one, Very beginning.
- [05:42]
Yvette Lee Bowser
Oh, yes.
- [05:43]
Lena Waithe
And you were there for the entire run?
- [05:45]
Yvette Lee Bowser
No, I left after season five. I wrote the episode, Saved the Best for Last, the wedding episode. Susan and I broke it into two parts and then I left. But I wrote part one entitled the Two Parter, Save the Best for Last because I knew it was my swan song on that show.
- [06:03]
Lena Waithe
Got it. So you got to live through the evolution of the show.
- [06:07]
Yvette Lee Bowser
Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, and what a blessing that was to be part of that evolution, because there was no one who had created the show, working on the show day to day. So that kind of left this creative chasm for myself and Susan and Debbie to fill. And we knew that first season that we weren't doing the show that we could and should be doing.
- [06:28]
Lena Waithe
Because Debbie wasn't there yet.
- [06:30]
Yvette Lee Bowser
Correct.
- [06:30]
Lena Waithe
She got there soon too.
- [06:31]
Yvette Lee Bowser
Correct. But Thad and Susan and I knew that there was another show to be excavated and nurtured in those characters.
- [06:40]
Lena Waithe
Talk to me about what it was like working with Susan Phils.
- [06:42]
Yvette Lee Bowser
A delightful. It was like working with my big sister. So, you know, we would have lots of hilarious, intellectual, passionate debates. You know, I mean, I once I spoke about her and I said, you know, we were there, you know, kind of painting a new palette with all these different hues and also sharing every story of every boy who dared to break our hearts. Because that was what was important to us in our 20s. You know, finding love and figuring out who you were in the world.
- [07:13]
Lena Waithe
Did you two feel like you had a real voice on the show?
- [07:17]
Yvette Lee Bowser
Absolutely, absolutely.
- [07:19]
Lena Waithe
Even though you knew the leadership it was under at the time wasn't necessarily understanding the world, but you did feel like you were able to get some things in in that season one.
- [07:28]
Yvette Lee Bowser
Absolutely. I mean, and that, that, that gave me every time something that I suggested made it through that iron shield, that was affirmation. But I also came there feeling like I belong in this space. I really did believe that. Not arrogantly, but confidently. And I think Thad and Susan were particularly nurturing that first season. And you know, we were in the war torn trenches of season one. You know, we had a common enemy in the season one showrunner. And we worked some 20 hour days. I mean, like we would work, we would be delirious at times. Like it was 7am and we were going home after a late night rewrite to shower, maybe take a nap and come right back by 10. So we, we paid our dues and we paid our dues Together. I mean, like, you can't go through that kind of gauntlet and not be bonded for life. Like, that's my sister. That's my sister. And Thad was my brother. He's no longer with us.
- [08:35]
Lena Waithe
What did you learn about yourself after that first season?
- [08:38]
Yvette Lee Bowser
I learned work ethic and resilience, and I learned that every no isn't a blow. It's just an opportunity to come up with something else. So I learned how to be really resilient and really quick, really facile on my feet, like we were pitching jokes on the fly, you know? And then when Debbie came in and the bar was raised not only by her, but by all of us for, you know, for the collective, you had to work be even faster because now there were even more people who had a say. And that was wonderful, quite frankly. I mean, she really did mend things between the page and the stage, the writers and the actors, and that. That was. I mean, it was. It was. It was essential to the show, quite frankly. We had a great rapport. Like, Susan and I, in particular, had a great relationship with the actors because we literally were the same age as most. So even during season one, as we were trudging through those trenches, those creative trenches together, we were partying after show night and on the weekends. We were friends. Those were my friends.
- [09:44]
Lena Waithe
Yeah. How long after you joined the show did you actually get staffed officially?
- [09:49]
Yvette Lee Bowser
The second season.
- [09:50]
Lena Waithe
Second season.
- [09:51]
Yvette Lee Bowser
The second season, yes. The second season. I think I had a cause. Staff writers didn't always have a on screen credits, so I think my title was program consultant.
- [10:02]
Lena Waithe
Got it.
- [10:03]
Yvette Lee Bowser
But the first season, not only did I get to pitch characters and stories that did get used, there were times when freelance writers or other people on staff wrote episodes, and I got to rewrite those episodes before they went to the table.
- [10:16]
Lena Waithe
Zero pay.
- [10:18]
Yvette Lee Bowser
Zero pay. Until, like, halfway through the first season when I called Dr. Cosby and I said, you know, when you sent me here and you said the pay was zero, I would like to let you know kind of what I've been doing and what I've been contributing. And there was. And I said, it's been considerable, and I think I've earned a salary. And he looked into it, and there was no one who argued with what I was, the case I was making for myself. And then they gave me a PA salary. So I made a whopping 94 cents an hour that year.
- [10:55]
Lena Waithe
That's how it was done in those.
- [10:56]
Yvette Lee Bowser
Days, you know, no risk, no reward. No risk, no reward. And having come from not having any understanding of the industry or television writing or character development or story arcs or any of those things. I was just learning. I was just being an apprentice.
- [11:14]
Lena Waithe
Kind of like grad school.
- [11:15]
Yvette Lee Bowser
Exactly. I consider myself having got gotten my master's at Hillman On a Different world and my PhD on Living Single. One of the wonderful things about being an apprentice was that it was not. That defined a job. And so when the writers room kind of shut down for no particular reason and there wasn't anything to really observe, I moved throughout the production freely watching the actors process. The director spent a lot of time in editing, and that's where I was like, oh, wow, this is where the show gets made. This is where the power is. This is where the. This is the final rewrite. You know, so I really learned about production. It was my TV film school.
- [12:00]
Lena Waithe
Yeah. When Debbie did come in and changed everything, you know, for the better, someone would argue, you're now staffed. How does that change the writer's room experience for you?
- [12:14]
Yvette Lee Bowser
I didn't feel like it changed because, as I mentioned, Thad and Susan and I were always having our own clandestine conversations about what it should be. So when Debbie came into the mix after our HBCU tour that Thad and Susan and I took between seasons one and two to gather more information, our reconnaissance mission, we were ready. You know what I'm saying? It just felt like more of a partnership, as opposed to us, the writers, in the trenches, working against a common enemy. You know, it felt like we had a partner who was there to really facilitate the relationship. And there were certainly challenges. I mean, honestly, like you ask about that being that young, fresh voice. I mean, there were times when, you know, Debbie would say, hey, this is how we did it at Howard. And I would say, in another decade.
- [13:10]
Lena Waithe
Did you challenge.
- [13:11]
Yvette Lee Bowser
We each had to own our space.
- [13:13]
Lena Waithe
Did you challenge Debbie? How was that?
- [13:15]
Yvette Lee Bowser
Absolutely.
- [13:16]
Lena Waithe
I know all about that.
- [13:17]
Yvette Lee Bowser
Absolutely.
- [13:17]
Lena Waithe
What was that like for you, taking on Debbie Allen?
- [13:22]
Yvette Lee Bowser
I mean, it felt right. It felt like not only did she welcome the actors to have a say about the writing, the writers also felt empowered to have a say about the actors and also choices being made by the director, you know what I'm saying? Like, there was just a feeling that we were all more empowered to really own our space and to have discourse that was sometimes not disagreeable, but just different and have a different point of view, you know what I'm saying? Every point of view was appreciated. So it wasn't like she came there and everybody was supposed to get in line. Everybody was encouraged to be their best selves and to bring what they brought.
- [14:11]
Lena Waithe
I'm curious. When did you kind of start to make some real money on A Different World? When did you start to feel that confidence? When were you thinking to yourself, and I'm assuming it's probably maybe around season three or season four, where you're no longer the Apprentice. You don't have to call Dr. Cosby to make sure you're getting paid. Debbie Allen respects you. Susan's watched you grow up with her. How are you? Are you able to kind of really sort of throw your weight around, feel yourself driving a different car when you come to the lot?
- [14:42]
Yvette Lee Bowser
Probably. I mean, I think I got pretty comfortable, quite frankly, after season two, like, this show's gonna be here for a while, and then also quite humbly, seeing my. To myself because of you and your creative partners, you know, So I felt like on. I was on pretty secure footing there. You know, I'm like, this is a great show, and I've been part of making it, so. So live your life, you know? And I moved out of my mom's house, which I had the, you know, the opportunity to do that first year, and I moved out on my own. And by the fourth season, I bought the first house I ever lived in. I bought my first home.
- [15:33]
Lena Waithe
And while you're in your home and you're on this show that's like the number two show in America, are you feeling bliss or a whole ton of responsibility to make sure this show continues to work?
- [15:45]
Yvette Lee Bowser
Both. Both. But the responsibility never felt like pressure. It always felt like opportunity. It really did. It felt like opportunity to reflect us as we see ourselves. And again, we all have different lenses. And I think that was the beauty of the show and part of the, you know, like, massive appeal of the show that people could find different points of entry to a different world.
- [16:15]
Lena Waithe
While you were there, were you starting to daydream about what it would be like to have your own show?
- [16:20]
Yvette Lee Bowser
No, I was very focused on being present and participating in that very. What I knew was a unique experience. I had no idea what the rest of Hollywood was like. But when I was there, I feel like I did have that rare perspective that this is different. I was later gonna find out exactly how different a different world was.
- [16:43]
Lena Waithe
That's what I'm gonna ask. Was this that being your first gig ever in Hollywood, a gift or a curse?
- [16:51]
Yvette Lee Bowser
A total gift. A total gift in every way, personally, creatively, in terms of elevating my consciousness, connecting me more to my blackness. Even though I knew who I was. I've always been black, even though I'm biracial, I'm a black woman.
- [17:11]
Lena Waithe
What did you learn about leadership while being on the set of A Different World?
- [17:17]
Yvette Lee Bowser
That we all had the potential to be leaders. And that, quite frankly, as black people in America, we owed it to ourselves to own that position to lead. I think we're here to lead.
- [17:32]
Lena Waithe
Speaking of the next credit I'm going to. You become the leader of this ship, and it really becomes a show that I think is just as significant as A Different World, because I think of it as a continuation.
- [17:53]
Yvette Lee Bowser
So do I.
- [17:55]
Lena Waithe
How did living Single come together?
- [18:00]
Yvette Lee Bowser
Through a lot of perseverance. But I will say so. I left aside, as we discussed, I left A Different World kind of at its peak. But when I knew it was time for me to leave the nest, to really kind of test my mettle, to see who I could be outside of that ivory tower where five years is a long time. It is a long time. It is a long time. But it was the right amount of time for me. I felt very ready to go out on my own into the wilderness. Lord only knows how wild it was. And I found myself in a situation where it was very oppressive in the writers room. It was sexist, it was racist, it was isolating. And I was like, oh, my gosh. This was the great unknown. This is what the rest of Hollywood is like. I won't be here long because I'm not one to suffer fools. And so I doubled down on my interest in developing. Little did I know when I left A Different World, how shortly thereafter I would develop my own show because it wasn't a focus of mine. Like I said, when I was at A Different World, I was very kind of myopically focused on pouring everything I had into that show, ripping every page from my diary to tell those stories. And I realized that if I was going to thrive or others who look like me, who came from places like I came from, were going to thrive, that I needed to create that environment. I needed to build that table and the chairs. And so I set out to develop, and I went. I had been having some development meetings, just general meetings after I left A Different World and before I landed on my next gig. And so I just went back to the studio and said, I'm ready. I'm ready. And they said, well, we actually have talent holding deals with Kim Coles and Queen Latifah. They want to do something together. And they had advocated for a black writer to get the opportunity to develop that show. And I was the beneficiary of their advocacy. Again, we were really fortunate that all of the chemistry came together. You know, that I sat down with Kim, I sat down with Dana, and that's Latifah, for those who don't know. And really tried to take what I felt was like the best of them and then create characters around them so that they could really thrive, you know, because they also, in addition to having, you know, Kim being on Living Color, which was a sketch show. So it was a different. Yeah, different tone. And Latifah having done guest spots, they were fairly inexperienced. So I wanted to make sure that whatever I created fit them comfortably and that they were also surrounded by other people that could elevate them and take a little pressure off of them. So that's really the reason I said, you know what? I'm going to make this an ensemble. Plus, I can have more points of view because I'd also come from this beautiful friends as family ensemble on a different world. So, as you mentioned, it was a continuation for me emotionally and creatively. I mean, this was life almost immediately after college.
- [21:27]
Lena Waithe
Absolutely.
- [21:27]
Yvette Lee Bowser
After coming from that environment to this.
- [21:29]
Lena Waithe
It just has such a stunning cast. Everyone is so different. Everyone's so amazing. Can you talk to me about Kim Fields becoming Regean?
- [21:37]
Yvette Lee Bowser
Oh, absolutely, absolutely. Well, again, those personal relationships. I met Kim Fields through her friendship with Darrell Bell, who's a good friend of mine on different board. And I created Regine as that little girl in me. And I felt like Kim could play this. She could play the heck out of this. So I actually invited her to my office while I was developing the show and asked her if she would consider playing the part. And she actually, at the time, wanted me to do something else for her. And I was like, I'm really focused on this right now. Cause when I get focused, I get in there. But if this doesn't work out, we can talk about the other. But it worked out.
- [22:26]
Lena Waithe
I love Kim Fields. Obviously. I loved her on Facts of Life as well. I mean, she's very much a star in her own right.
- [22:33]
Yvette Lee Bowser
Absolutely.
- [22:33]
Lena Waithe
At that time, too. Someone could also argue a part of the Whitley Gilbert lineage. But what did you want Regine to be? Because she is different from Whitley Gilbert. She's giving me Lola Falana energy as well. Who did you want her to be?
- [22:46]
Yvette Lee Bowser
Regine was really the less evolved version of myself. Who was from where I'm from where Whitley was, not where I was from.
- [22:55]
Lena Waithe
Right.
- [22:56]
Yvette Lee Bowser
Whitley's from where Susan's from You know, and we just, you know, we harvested all of that and poured that into Whitley and what we understood of that character. And as we filled her out, it became more and more obvious that we were telling Susan's story. And to some degree, she's never been quite that superficial. But again, to have that real lineage, a family crest, those things. I'd never met anyone who had a family crest before I met Susan. Right. Okay.
- [23:25]
Lena Waithe
Hello.
- [23:25]
Yvette Lee Bowser
Shout out to Timothy Fails. So, you know, but I think we all have a little regime in us. Someone who comes from the mud but who dares to want more and has no shame about it. So that was really what I wanted to explore. Kind of just kind of at the core of that character.
- [23:48]
Lena Waithe
Like, the nerve and the wigs also became a bit of a character of their own.
- [23:52]
Yvette Lee Bowser
Absolutely. Absolutely. And that came out of a conversation that Kim and I were having just about on set, Hair care. And I was like, let's make it a feature, because it's something that we do, you know, and we hadn't had a lot of shows that featured us where, you know, we were wrapping our heads with scarves or wearing bonnets or literally, you know, having short hair one day, having braids the next, having a weave. Those are all parts of us. And also, she was a character who was at a stage in her life where she was not just finding herself, but redefining herself every day to figure out what she wanted in life. And so that was just another way to explore that, to externalize it, to physicalize it, and to add humor. It was hilarious. We created whole moments where she'd come in with one look, run upstairs, come out with another. Different hair. You know, the ponytail, the party tail, the whip appeal. So many things. And gave Erica, who played Maxine Shaw, a lot to talk about.
- [24:58]
Lena Waithe
Well, speaking of Maxine Shaw, another iconic character played by an iconic human, Erica Alexander, also coming from the lineage of, obviously, the Cosby Show. And as Pam, she sort of blossoms into. So again, it feels like a continuation. It feels like, is this who Pam grew up to be? You know what I mean? I know it's completely different characters, but it's from the same universe because you are a part of that bridge.
- [25:23]
Yvette Lee Bowser
But you.
- [25:23]
Lena Waithe
You really kind of let Erika Alexander become this woman that is strong, is funny, not afraid to go back for seconds, has a lust for life, and it's just someone we've never seen before. Where does she come from?
- [25:42]
Yvette Lee Bowser
My alter ego. She's my Sasha fierce. Maxine Shaw, attorney at law, is my Sasha Fierce. She Was the very necessary armor for a woman who is really an introvert, often masquerading as an extrovert because society kind of asks for it. You know, they kind of want us to be out front. And that's just not really who I am. But I was supposed to go to law school, as we discussed. So I was like, she's going to be a lawyer. Because there's something about me that is very much in line with people who become attorneys. You know, my politics, you know, my argumentative nature, my desire to debate things until we find the very best and then put it in the show. So that, yeah, Maxine Shaw, that's. That's me. That was the character that was most, one to one, a representative of me at that time.
- [26:41]
Lena Waithe
But what's interesting about the Max character is that you. I know you did struggle with the network about her in general and who she was and what she represented. And what's fascinating about strong women, if you will, or women who I always deem not to be ladylike because they're not acting like ladies supposedly should. She almost is always barreling into the apartment because she isn't a roommate. And that was by design, but it was by redesign. By redesign. By the network, but by the network. The network doesn't want her in that space all the time. But what I think is really nice.
- [27:16]
Yvette Lee Bowser
They want her in the show.
- [27:18]
Lena Waithe
The black woman lawyer who has trouble, you know, dealing with the opposite sex for whatever reason. It became something that I think represented a group of women that really hadn't felt seen. And you fought for her?
- [27:36]
Yvette Lee Bowser
Absolutely. I mean, I told them after I received feedback from the network on the first draft of the pilot, they questioned Max's existence in the show, and they suggested that I get rid of her. Like, do we really need this many women? Do we really need this many characters? And I said, well, to take Max out of the show is to take the big part of me out of the show, and I'd rather not do the show. So, like, it's my first opportunity to create a show. Everything was on the line, but I didn't know what the show was without that character. And it was also legitimately my first opportunity from scratch to put my whole self in a character in a show. So I came up with the solution that she lived across the street. I'm like, she has the means to do so, and I'll just get more comedy from her constantly barreling in and helping herself to their food and their men and their castaways and their clothes. And, you know, their television, whatever it was to also, like, physicalize that we belong in every space that we choose to occupy.
- [28:41]
Lena Waithe
Yeah.
- [28:41]
Yvette Lee Bowser
So her coming across the street was a choice. And it's just. I mean, it's very subliminal, but it was also very intentional.
- [28:48]
Lena Waithe
You rarely see her apartment too, which is kind of funny and hilarious.
- [28:51]
Yvette Lee Bowser
People got very excited by the time we did go.
- [28:53]
Lena Waithe
Yeah. Because it was like.
- [28:54]
Yvette Lee Bowser
And she and Kyle were getting it.
- [28:56]
Lena Waithe
On over there one. It just took us a while to get there. It did. Also, I love the guys. You know, obviously you have TC Carson, you have John Hinton, Overton and Kyle. Respectfully, can you talk about that male energy on the show and what they brought to it?
- [29:11]
Yvette Lee Bowser
Yeah, absolutely. I really felt like, even though the center of the show and the inspiration for the show started with this core four women, that when you have that strong a female energy, it needs to be balanced out. I feel that about myself. And so enter Kyle and Overton, who are, quite frankly, very loosely modeled after the real Kyle and Overton. Kyle Bowser, married now 31 years, still going to Maxine. Skyla and Max are still together. And his real life best friend is Overton. Kyle and Overton have that relationship to this day. They talk every day. They talk every day.
- [30:00]
Lena Waithe
The real life version.
- [30:01]
Yvette Lee Bowser
The real life. Kyle and Overton talk every day. And those two actors had immediate chemistry. And we were like, we have to maximize this. Like, they earned more space and time on screen.
- [30:16]
Lena Waithe
There's a couple episodes I wanted to talk to you about. One in particular, Season one. She's not heavy. She's my.
- [30:21]
Yvette Lee Bowser
Mm, one of my favorites.
- [30:23]
Lena Waithe
I remember having a profound impact on me when I watched it in real time. I remember just thinking how special it was and how specific you all were being. But I also really love, as a writer, watching it back, how amazing it is. You're dancing two mother daughter relationships against each other. One, they're in love with each other and they're so happy. Queen Latifah and her mother skipping around, you know, and may her beautiful mother rest. And then you have Regene and her mom struggling. And I think you and I can relate to Regine's story. And I love the joke at the end where they call, you know, Latifah and her mom, Rita freaks. Because I think you and I think it's odd to be close with your mom. It feels more real to be at odds with your mother. How was it for you in the room to get that episode so right and so pitch perfect. And I'm also curious what the set was like too, to have your actresses, real moms, there for the taping.
- [31:25]
Yvette Lee Bowser
Well, Chip was always there. She was actually our dialogue coach. Oh. Mm. So Chip was there. She was there at the ready. And so that was great to just have her step right into that role. And it was really kind of just a crazy experiment to say, hey, Dana, do you think your mom might enjoy being on the show?
- [31:50]
Lena Waithe
She's so cute.
- [31:51]
Yvette Lee Bowser
And take a stab at playing this role. I had a very complicated relationship with my mother. Yeah, I'm gonna try not to get too emotional when I think about my.
- [32:01]
Lena Waithe
Mom, but.
- [32:05]
Yvette Lee Bowser
I was really able to. We were super, super close. We actually were very close. We actually were very close. So I was able to depict that's the spectrum of mother daughter relationships, because I'd had moments that looked like both of those pairings. That's really the truth of it. You know, my mom and I had had those, you know, frictious squabbles. My mother had every ugly sweater known to man. She tried to pass them down to me. We have a very different sense of fashion, but we also had a really tight, loving relationship because growing up, that's all I had. It was really me and my mom, even though my dad was kind of in and out of my life, and then my stepdad was there for a little while. It was always me and her. It was always me and her. So my, you know, my years with my mother were really reflected in both of those relationships. So it was easy to unpack. To unpack it all. And to put those relationships against each other was really fun. It was kind of like maybe the Gemini in me. Like, literally, I was kind of. A lot of times you'll find as a writer, you're in conversation with yourself all the time. Right. But also with the rest of society. And that's when it resonates. And you don't necessarily get to decide, like, you don't get to decide what connects with the audience. You don't get to decide what they deem iconic. The audience decides if they want to be Talking about something 30 some odd years later. Right. If it's their comfort show, God bless.
- [33:50]
Lena Waithe
There's another episode I really love called the Talk Showdown.
- [33:53]
Yvette Lee Bowser
Mm.
- [33:54]
Lena Waithe
Season two.
- [33:56]
Yvette Lee Bowser
Khadijah.
- [33:57]
Lena Waithe
Khadijah. I remember watching that episode and just being blown away by it. There's so much commentary in the episode. You're commentating on talk shows at the time, and what was happening. That was sort of our first Real Housewives. Were you. Was the Writers room feeling. What Kyle was feeling is that these shows were so easy and designed to make people feel better about themselves.
- [34:20]
Yvette Lee Bowser
He was, he was there to definitely represent one voice in the room. He wasn't there to represent society. He was there to represent those who think these shows are foolish. But there are people who are getting their entire lives seeing other people who are worse off than they are. So that was really kind of the big part of the commentary.
- [34:39]
Lena Waithe
I mean, it was interesting to hear today. I mean, there's obviously again, this is that bridge happening again between a different world and your show with Jennifer Lewis being there, who is phenomenal in the episode and is doing a lot of work in the episode.
- [34:55]
Yvette Lee Bowser
She's working it like only Jennifer Lewis can.
- [34:57]
Lena Waithe
I mean, it's actually a tour de force. Like this performance. Ailia, who came up with this, this character, this suit, this hair, the way she's talking, the way she's moving, obviously it's a bit of a heightened, crazy version of Oprah Winfrey. Sally, Jesse Raphael. What were you guys thinking? And did you have Jennifer in mind?
- [35:18]
Yvette Lee Bowser
Absolutely. Had Jennifer? Absolutely had. Dean Davenport.
- [35:22]
Lena Waithe
Dean Dorothy Dandridge Davenport. We want to be completely clear.
- [35:25]
Yvette Lee Bowser
Yeah, sure. Yes, but.
- [35:26]
Lena Waithe
And then she.
- [35:27]
Yvette Lee Bowser
We'll let you do it.
- [35:28]
Lena Waithe
She morphs into Delia, the talk show host and author.
- [35:32]
Yvette Lee Bowser
Yes.
- [35:33]
Lena Waithe
I cry, you cry. What was the impetus behind? Cause I'm going to give you your own shit. Like, I'm going like what? But also, it's classic writing. They go on the show.
- [35:46]
Yvette Lee Bowser
Right?
- [35:46]
Lena Waithe
Well, you get some fame and some love.
- [35:49]
Yvette Lee Bowser
Right? Well, you have the social commentary about these kinds of shows and are they that are designed to help us?
- [35:57]
Lena Waithe
Right.
- [35:57]
Yvette Lee Bowser
But how helpful are they really?
- [35:59]
Lena Waithe
Yeah.
- [36:00]
Yvette Lee Bowser
And these hosts, who are they really there for?
- [36:04]
Lena Waithe
Right.
- [36:05]
Yvette Lee Bowser
And then you have in mind this, you know, phenomenal talent in Jennifer Lewis and you got the perfect confluence.
- [36:16]
Lena Waithe
So great.
- [36:17]
Yvette Lee Bowser
There are very few moments in life that get a writer that high as I was that night, I mean. But then they managed to do it again and again and again, episode after episode. And they had, I mean, just, I think, unparalleled chemistry. That cast and such respect for each other. The table reads we had, I mean, they would come to work and sit down at a table and read those scripts and we would be howling and they would be laughing and they would be high fiving each other as if they'd written it themselves. And we were like, when they get on the floor and perform it and own it, the way they're owning it now, it's going to be magic.
- [37:03]
Lena Waithe
Wow.
- [37:03]
Yvette Lee Bowser
It's gonna be magic.
- [37:05]
Lena Waithe
Last but not least, there's an episode I wanna talk about called Woman to Woman, which is season three. First of all, it's Karen Molina White again. The bridge. A beautiful reunion. She was once Charmaine, but she plays Max's former college roommate, who is engaged to be married to a person named Chris, who turns out to be a woman played by Tanika Ray. And it kind of throws Max for a loop. Not necessarily because she's queer, but because she's the last to know.
- [37:41]
Yvette Lee Bowser
The last to know.
- [37:42]
Lena Waithe
And I think you all do a really beautiful thing. Cause it's always tricky when you go back and watch stuff from the 90s and there's a queer thing that comes up. Because it can be really tricky in terms of how people treated it then.
- [37:52]
Yvette Lee Bowser
Absolutely.
- [37:52]
Lena Waithe
But what I love is before you go to the iconic theme song, Sinclair says, lesbians, neat. And we go to check, check, check. At that time, what was it for you? Whose idea was it to go get Karen?
- [38:15]
Yvette Lee Bowser
That was probably my idea.
- [38:17]
Lena Waithe
Okay.
- [38:17]
Yvette Lee Bowser
That was probably my idea. I remember. Well, no, I'm saying, you know, we had. It's obviously weem.
- [38:22]
Lena Waithe
It's obviously.
- [38:22]
Yvette Lee Bowser
We had charnel. We had Cree.
- [38:24]
Lena Waithe
That's a wing.
- [38:25]
Yvette Lee Bowser
You know, we had so many.
- [38:26]
Lena Waithe
Was you wanting to Lou Myers afraid of that bridge? Cause some people might have said, this is. I'm here now. I have my own show. And I'm not gonna go back to my different world Cosby show roots. This is my thing. Because a person could do that. And I love that you clearly run toward it. Run towards your history and your past.
- [38:45]
Yvette Lee Bowser
Lean into it. Yeah, lean into it. Own it. I mean, then they're family.
- [38:49]
Lena Waithe
Clear.
- [38:50]
Yvette Lee Bowser
They're family. And they're capable, they're talented. People want to see them. I have a platform.
- [38:56]
Lena Waithe
It's beautiful.
- [38:57]
Yvette Lee Bowser
Let's give the people what they want. Give the people what they want.
- [39:00]
Lena Waithe
Were you all nervous at all? Was there a desire to want to talk about the fact that there are queer black women in the world? Was that a responsibility for you? Or was it just a thing that sort of came up and said this would be a cool idea for an episode?
- [39:16]
Yvette Lee Bowser
I think it was the latter. I think it was more, this'll be a cool idea for an episode. Like, it doesn't have to be an issue. It just is. We don't always have to be taking a deep dive. But I think it was important to, again, display us in the fullest spectrum. So I was like, we haven't really had any gay characters on the show. We'd had some, but we hadn't really featured them. So it wasn't really an agenda. Although I will say oftentimes, as I certainly learned and embraced on a different world, that our art is a big part of our activism. So, again, just by that simple representation and not making it an issue, we were making a statement that was powerful. I feel like the show Living Single aged really well, and there are certain moments where I go, ooh, I wish we'd written something. Something different here and there.
- [40:10]
Lena Waithe
I mean.
- [40:11]
Yvette Lee Bowser
But, you know.
- [40:11]
Lena Waithe
But it's a timestamp, though. It's a timestamp. You got a bajillion episodes, you're doing a season.
- [40:16]
Yvette Lee Bowser
Absolutely, absolutely. But also, again, as we evolve, our consciousness evolves, God willing. You know what I'm saying? It does. And you're just like, oh, wow, we could have handled that better, or maybe not, given that character that thing to say.
- [40:31]
Lena Waithe
Yeah, I hear you. Oh, one other thing I want to talk about, too. You know, when Mara was here, she talked about. About losing a main character on a show. I had that experience as well. Losing someone from principal cast. What is that like for a show creator, for you to have to understand that parting of ways and also still be there for the rest of your cast?
- [40:51]
Yvette Lee Bowser
It wasn't my heart's desire. It was not my heart's desire. And I do believe that that situation was one where I wish that I maybe felt like I had more of a choice and also, you know, creatively and financially. But I didn't. I didn't. But I also refused to feel like I failed someone because I know that I did the best I could at the time. Feel like very parental saying that, but that was hard. It was really hard. And so I tried to channel that heartbreak into the few stories that we were able to do with Kyle. And I feel very blessed that he was able to come back, that he agreed to come back and finish the series. And we're all, you know, super tight to this day. You know, we have a group chat. You know, I actually had Kyle and Max come and play characters on Half and Half, which is, like, so fun, so unusual. Such a treat for the living single audience and the half and half audience, and for me in particular to revisit those characters, like, a decade or more later. But that was our brother, and we had to make that change.
- [42:10]
Lena Waithe
Can you talk a little bit about what that relationship is like between creator and cast? Because I think people don't really understand that relationship, and it's a difficult one to Explain to people because you change each other's lives and you are forever connected, but it is still a business relationship that somehow becomes a personal one because the amount of time you spend with these people and the way your lives change at the same time. What is it like for a person who has cast people in a show that changes their lives and then your lives change over the course of lives? Their right.
- [42:49]
Yvette Lee Bowser
I think it's different for every show creator, quite frankly. I think that you and I are on the same page in feeling that they not only change your life forever, change your life forever, but also you're connected forever. I don't think that that's true of most people, most creators. I don't. I don't think that in certain circles they have the same kind of intimate relationships that we do. But coming up from a different world and having been so bonded with those actors and gaining so much mutual respect in that experience, it was kind of like I not only craved it, but maybe demanded it in subsequent experiences, even if I wasn't the creator of the show. Like, I just really believe that you need to work in concert with each other to yield the results that we're all ultimately looking for. So I mean, I have friendships with everyone from every cast. Not every per. Not. They're all, not all the same relationships. But I have a rapport and a connection to pretty much every, you know, principal cast member I've ever worked with. And that's a blessing.
- [44:02]
Lena Waithe
Well, we're all grateful for every single character, all them and single every actor, every person because it is still watchable. It is still this special miracle that you all created and you gave us. And these characters really live on inside of us. We see ourselves in them. We aspire to be like them, but we also felt like they were who we were. It wasn't like they felt so far away.
- [44:34]
Yvette Lee Bowser
Thank you.
- [44:35]
Lena Waithe
And it's hard to do that on multicam, to make it feel so grounded in something real. And you do that so beautifully with that show.
- [44:42]
Yvette Lee Bowser
Thank you. I don't think it's that hard when it's your intention. I think intentionality is so key.
- [44:50]
Lena Waithe
It's not easy. It's not an easy thing to do.
- [44:53]
Yvette Lee Bowser
Okay.
- [44:53]
Lena Waithe
And it's a rare, a rare person that can make that happen.
- [44:57]
Yvette Lee Bowser
Thank you.
- [44:58]
Lena Waithe
The next credit. This was a what we like to call a short lived show, but it left an imprint on my memory.
- [45:07]
Yvette Lee Bowser
Lush life ahead of its time.
- [45:11]
Lena Waithe
Karen Parsons, Junior high school. Lori Petty. Oh, okay. I remember watching the pilot. I remember watching these episodes. Big Fan of obviously Fresh Prince of Bel Air. So I'm seeing Karen Parsons going like, okay, Lori Petty. Knew a little bit about her. Didn't know a ton.
- [45:29]
Yvette Lee Bowser
Thank girl.
- [45:30]
Lena Waithe
Where did this idea come from of these two women? A bit of an odd couple, one bit of an artist. Quirky. No one have hardly any money. One has a bit of money comes from it. Black, white, in an apartment.
- [45:43]
Yvette Lee Bowser
You created the show with Karen and Laurie.
- [45:47]
Lena Waithe
With Karen and Lori.
- [45:48]
Yvette Lee Bowser
The idea came from Karen and Laurie.
- [45:49]
Lena Waithe
But you helped fill it out. But again, it's actors coming to you and you all figuring out the show.
- [45:55]
Yvette Lee Bowser
It's Karen coming to me as a childhood friend and saying, I have this really close friend, Lori Petty. You know, we want to do a show together and we have this incredible bond. I mean, and they had great on screen chemistry.
- [46:11]
Lena Waithe
I didn't know they were friends in real life.
- [46:12]
Yvette Lee Bowser
Yes, they were friends in real life and they hung out at Hal's in Venice around all these quirky people. And Laurie is also an artist. And it was just a really. It was an opportunity for me as someone who had been now kind of earned a position of, you know, access. And I was there to mentor and provide an opportunity for them to create something that they could, you know, thrive in. Unfortunately, the network canceled the entire night, so we were kind of collateral damage.
- [46:46]
Lena Waithe
What are you walking onto that set with that you that you didn't have when you were on Living Single?
- [46:49]
Yvette Lee Bowser
I'm just more seasoned now, you know what I'm saying? Much more relaxed. I'm much more comfortable. Like I've now gone from helping launch a different world to then another show that was in its first season and seeing how that went to then creating my own show and having, you know, launched that show successfully. So I know what it takes. So I'm much more at ease. I'm much more comfortable about what this could be. And I'm collaborating with the actors who in that particular case happen to be the co creators of the show, you know, so I'm helping to facilitate their vision. But I'm still the showrunner, which means not the ultimate in authority, which a lot of people think like this is power unrivaled. It's the ultimate position of accountability.
- [47:40]
Lena Waithe
How would you say about navigating the industry when the industry is constantly changing on you?
- [47:45]
Yvette Lee Bowser
I think as long as you stay true to your vision, that's really, again, that's the one thing you can control. You know, you don't know what the industry is going to embrace. You don't know what the audience is going to embrace. But staying true to self is the one thing that you can always do.
- [48:04]
Lena Waithe
And you did that again with for your Love. How did that idea come to you?
- [48:11]
Yvette Lee Bowser
Just ripping more pages from my diary. I mean, at that point in life, you know, most. I was married, and I had a lot of married friends, and the pitch was super simple. Three couples, Three couples, three stages of love. Like Warren Littlefield literally said, I basically bought it in the room after that sentence. So sometimes you don't know. Like, when I talk to young writers about, you know, the development process and pitching, it's just like, make sure you don't bury the lead. And sometimes you might lose their attention after five minutes. So make sure that the most salient point, the juiciest thing, put it up front, front load, be clear. Be clear in your vision, and then just like, leave room for discovery.
- [48:52]
Lena Waithe
Did you have Holly Robinson Pete in mind when you walked into the room? And was that at that point? Were you just used to collaborating with actors and creating the characters, or was this time a little different?
- [49:05]
Yvette Lee Bowser
This time was different in that Holly did have a talent deal at Warner Brothers, which is where the show was developed. And I was on an overall at the time, but I was telling my story, which I've come to know from my very first job, is our Story for your Love went four seasons.
- [49:23]
Lena Waithe
That's a nice run.
- [49:24]
Yvette Lee Bowser
Four Seasons. It was a nice run. That show launched the year I had my first child. Holly had her twins, her first children. Our director Barnett had just. His wife had just given birth. DW Moffat, who played Dean, his wife also had a baby. So we had a trailer for all the babies. So it was family centric.
- [49:49]
Lena Waithe
Wow.
- [49:50]
Yvette Lee Bowser
It was family centric very much.
- [49:52]
Lena Waithe
Speaking of family, next credit I'm talking about is a family dynamic that I really am fascinated by. It's called Half and Half.
- [50:01]
Yvette Lee Bowser
Half and Half. Half and Half came to me through my agent. The person who had created the show no longer wanted to go forward with the show. UPN was looking to take some scripts that already existed and make pilots if those scripts could be kind of polished and take them to the next step, which was a green light. It was written with a white cast in mind. And they asked me if I would consider kind of adapting it for a black or multiracial cast. And I did my best to preserve as much of it as I could because I thought that's such an odd request, quite frankly, because people are people, people are people. And the way we're gonna brown it up is the way we're gonna cast it, you know, so. But I did a little bit of a toning pass and then also was then given free reign to kind of create the backstories for these characters and put a lot of myself and my life into it, because I do have half siblings. And as life would have it, particularly my life, my half sister came to live with me while we were shooting that show.
- [51:18]
Lena Waithe
So interesting, because a lot of people think of Half and Half as a show that you created. I think I kind of also thought.
- [51:25]
Yvette Lee Bowser
Because I developed it right, and I was the. The showrunner.
- [51:28]
Lena Waithe
What part of your brain do you have to turn off when you are showrunning a show that is not something you created?
- [51:36]
Yvette Lee Bowser
You leave all the same lights on because you. You have to treat it like it's yours from. It's like, if, like, it's like being a surrogate. It really is. You have to treat it like it's your own because it. It's coming out of you week after week, idea after idea, character after character. It's emanating from you. So how can you not love it, embrace it, give it the best that you have to give it?
- [51:59]
Lena Waithe
So there's no different approach to a show when it's not your creation versus when it is?
- [52:04]
Yvette Lee Bowser
No, not really. I mean, it depends. I mean, like, when you get into kind of the mechanics of, like, helping someone else who created something who was present, it's different. Like, I feel like I've done a little bit of everything. This was not that. So the creator was not involved. So it really became mine to nurture and nourish and, you know, figure out what, you know, four, five, six seasons were gonna be, right?
- [52:31]
Lena Waithe
I mean, how did it feel when the ratings came back and it was clearly finding an audience and you were finding the groove again, and you got Rachel True and Essence Atkins and that really wonderful cast. Did it feel like, oh, I'm here again on the show that's working, and this is where I'll be. You just kind of like setting up camp.
- [52:52]
Yvette Lee Bowser
I felt blessed, like, but also like, this is what I do. Like I said earlier, I'm built for this. This is what I'm purposed to do. And I'm doing it, and I'm doing it also giving other opportunities to people to kind of live out their dreams and tell their stories. I'm just providing another opportunity for everyone to work and to give voice to these characters and to tell a part of their story through these characters.
- [53:23]
Lena Waithe
You were excited at that time. There was no jaded energy. You were like, we're back at it.
- [53:28]
Yvette Lee Bowser
Yeah. It never gets old. It never gets old. I think when it gets old, that's when you're done, you know, I do. I think that's when you're done. I think that's when you say, I'm clocking out now. Like, this is old hat. Because it's. I mean, it's energetically. It is easy, but the work is hard. Writing is hard, Creating is hard. You know, constantly putting out is hard.
- [53:51]
Lena Waithe
Output is.
- [53:52]
Yvette Lee Bowser
You know, output is hard. And you have to make sure that you kind of create the time to, like, pour into yourself so that you have something else to say. They're all very, very different. The voices are different, the characters are different. There's certain overlap, and I'd like to think that the greatest similarity is that they're just authentic and they're of a certain quality that I embrace and consider my brand.
- [54:24]
Lena Waithe
The mother daughter thing comes up a lot.
- [54:26]
Yvette Lee Bowser
Always.
- [54:27]
Lena Waithe
That keeps popping up, always.
- [54:29]
Yvette Lee Bowser
Because it is the most complicated of relationships. So there's so many different ways that you can explore it. Oh, yes. I mean, those two mothers.
- [54:36]
Lena Waithe
Oh, my God.
- [54:37]
Yvette Lee Bowser
Amazing, amazing, amazing.
- [54:41]
Lena Waithe
I'd love to talk about Black Ish. You were there for that first season, for the launch.
- [54:46]
Yvette Lee Bowser
The first two seasons, yeah.
- [54:47]
Lena Waithe
First two, yeah. How was that stepping into that world at that time? Because I do think tv, particularly the half hour being single camera and the tone shifting. What was that like for you, being at that point a vet, an icon just in your own right? How was it for you sitting at that table and what were you offering that room?
- [55:15]
Yvette Lee Bowser
It was very exciting to be there. You know, I mentored Kenya in the Showrunner training program.
- [55:22]
Lena Waithe
My big bro.
- [55:24]
Yvette Lee Bowser
And when he was creating the show, you know, so I was kind of advising him, and I read the pilot and given him some thoughts, like, in the development process, and he was like, I want you to run this show for me. And I was like, I'm open. And then there was a certain, I'm going to say, confluence of events without getting too emotional. My mother was diagnosed with terminal cancer, and also someone else had a deal at the studio and they wanted that person to run the show. I said, I want to help you launch this show. So you tell me what capacity makes sense for you. I don't know what time I have given what's going on with my mother, but I'm there because I think, you know, you're onto something and I want to help you see it through, so. And I knew that we needed that show culturally, we needed that show. We needed that. We needed that show as another pathway or portal to what was to come next, which was kind of this real influx of new talent and new voices. But we needed that show. We needed it on network, we needed it on broadcast.
- [56:33]
Lena Waithe
Well, seeing as how you came from the Cosby Show a different world, and then your own era that you created, I think with Living Single and also, obviously Martin coming in as well, what was your view now, sitting at the table at Black Ish, seeing what you had seen, living through what you had lived through? You're bringing something different into that writer's room, even if you weren't sitting at the head of the table. And I remember when you were there, I remember, you know, you.
- [57:02]
Yvette Lee Bowser
I was on the couch.
- [57:04]
Lena Waithe
Well, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [57:05]
Yvette Lee Bowser
I came through very purposefully. Yeah, but I was on the couch. Yeah, I was. I mean, I.
- [57:10]
Lena Waithe
You were sort of sitting back and observing.
- [57:12]
Yvette Lee Bowser
Yes. More the consigliere, consulting producer type. And I put myself. Yes. And also, like, I felt like I had the perfect perch to observe and to also really yield the floor to this next generation of talent. But to contribute meaningfully. Meaningfully. That was really my job.
- [57:35]
Lena Waithe
How much, you know, were you rolling up your sleeves in terms of the writing process, or was it okay?
- [57:41]
Yvette Lee Bowser
Yeah, I have the emails and the texts from Kenya Barris. Plenty. I rolled up my sleeve plenty. Yes. I mean, Dre Johnson is Kenya Anthony and Kyle Bowser used a lot of our personal stories. A lot of our personal stories.
- [58:01]
Lena Waithe
How was the conversation in the room when the episode came up for the talk?
- [58:05]
Yvette Lee Bowser
Hmm. Let's see. So I think it's interesting because I think we all have a different version of the origin story of that episode. And this is one of those moments. I was like, oh, yeah, Lena's gonna ask me a question. There's gonna be one pretty key detail that I don't remember. I can't remember in the historic timeline exactly which situation. It was like, what horrible, horrific event went down. But something popped off, and I knew that it was going to be yet another night that I went home and had to have the talk with my two young teenage black boys about the dangers of being black. So I was crying in the room. It just overwhelmed me. And then Kenya bought some of my favorite alcoholic beverages into the room, and we had those, and we were all on the same page. We had a consensus, like, we have to deal with this. We have to tell these stories. And having, again, come up through a different world. And then also Being topical, daring to be topical on Living Single. It didn't faze me at all that we would get a little bit more serious. And I also knew that it would put the show in another conversation. And so then we kind of just took this all hands on deck approach, and we broke the story beat by beat. Had lots of, I would say, rigorous and passionate conversation about it. And then Kenya went and wrote a beautiful script. And then we had our own internal table read of that script, which is.
- [60:05]
Lena Waithe
When the writers say, read it out.
- [60:06]
Yvette Lee Bowser
Loud, and the writers are reading it out loud for themselves, and we're getting a sense of it. And it was really quiet in the room. You could feel the fear. It's so funny that there's an ironic that there's a siren spirit, heaviness to.
- [60:23]
Lena Waithe
Discussion, knows what God is doing.
- [60:26]
Yvette Lee Bowser
And you could. It was so quiet, you could hear a rat piss on cotton. And you could. The. The fear from the rest of the writers was palpable. Like, maybe this is too serious. So Kenya was a little concerned because he's like, the laughs aren't there. And I said, I've been here before, bro. Maybe the laughs aren't there. And we can also, you know, look at key moments and see where we might, you know, amplify that a bit. But this is exactly what you need to be doing right now. And it turned out to be a beautiful episode.
- [61:07]
Lena Waithe
That episode did change things and let us know that Black Ish was not only an important show, but it was one that was going to be here to stay and be one that the first black family would not only acknowledge, but speak to and help amplify. And I think we all understood the significance of Black Ish after that episode.
- [61:30]
Yvette Lee Bowser
Yeah, it was beautiful. And I felt at home and going back to, like, what was my role? That was my role. That was my role to kind of put people at ease, to, like, draw on my vast experience and say, I've seen this before. I've been exactly in this place before. And this is how we push through it. But maintain your conviction about, you know, like, when you. When you know your why, it's like kind of the first rule of storytelling. Why. Why am I telling this story and why am I telling it this way? When you know your why and you have conviction about that, it's easy to be unflappable. It's easy to stay the course.
- [62:16]
Lena Waithe
Yeah. And I think also Black Ish is that show that will do an episode called the Talk, and then it'll also do an episode called the nod.
- [62:23]
Yvette Lee Bowser
Absolutely. I love that one.
- [62:29]
Lena Waithe
It's like lighter, fair.
- [62:30]
Yvette Lee Bowser
Yes, yes.
- [62:31]
Lena Waithe
But just as relevant.
- [62:33]
Yvette Lee Bowser
That was season one. Yes. Yeah, exactly. Loved it. And the one about the spanking, I mean, woo.
- [62:39]
Lena Waithe
Come on.
- [62:39]
Yvette Lee Bowser
Like, that was so interesting. The cultural lines that were drawn. Like, we're really gonna do this spanking story. And I'm like, we need to do this spanking story. Right. And that was. I mean, again, that was one of those times when it's just like it scares people and excites them in equal doses. And that like, that's my jam. Like, if it scares and excites me in equal doses, we're doing it. If I have anything to say about it, we're doing it. We're doing it.
- [63:06]
Lena Waithe
Is that weird thing that's interesting because I was talking to someone, someone was interviewing me and they were saying, do you get worried about scrutiny or people having thoughts on the work? And I was like, this is not new. No, it's like what I sell. It's interesting because all the people I've looked up to, obviously you being at the top of that list, the work that you've done isn't necessarily concerned with the audience's comfortability.
- [63:31]
Yvette Lee Bowser
Absolutely. I mean, sometimes the job is to make the audience feel comfortable. That discomfort. To let them sit in it.
- [63:41]
Lena Waithe
Yeah. Speaking of discomfort, the last credit, but definitely not the least and one that I'm personally connected to.
- [63:48]
Yvette Lee Bowser
Huh.
- [63:49]
Lena Waithe
Even in the title. Even in the title is meant to make you sit in that uncomfortability. How did you hear about the gig to Showrun, Dear White People, the series?
- [64:02]
Yvette Lee Bowser
I heard about the gig through my agent. I particularly loved the opportunity to extend the story in television in a series. Right. And go ahead. I enjoyed the work that he, Justin, had done with the Bible, but I had some concerns about some choices that he wanted to make that he had laid out in the Bible. And I boldly dared to just inquire, slash question the choices. I mean, he was planning to kill Lionel in like the third or fourth episode.
- [64:40]
Lena Waithe
I do remember that.
- [64:41]
Yvette Lee Bowser
And I looked at him and I said, I find Lionel to be one of the freshest characters and voices in the whole play. And I'm not sure why you want to do this. And then he talked a little bit about the tonal shift that he wanted and also that he didn't think that the actor who'd played him in the movie was gonna be available. And I said, Howard James Williams. But is that. And I said, is that the reason to kill yourself out of the show? Because If I understand the person I'm meeting right now, you are Lionel. Lionel is you.
- [65:12]
Lena Waithe
We are in conversation with ourselves.
- [65:14]
Yvette Lee Bowser
I would not kill that character. I would find another way to shift the tone in the series to kind of get a little deeper. I would not do that. And so he said, I'm picking up what you're putting down. And I said, let me know if you want to do this. And then I got a call. You're the one.
- [65:36]
Lena Waithe
Well, what's also interesting is we talked about your experience being at a different world, coming from Stanford, and now fast forward, different world than Dear White People. Wow, what a journey. It is about a fictitious pwi. What did you feel you could bring to that table? Obviously, as a showrunner this time around, did you feel more comfortable in your skin, not just as a vet at that point, but the fact that you were gonna be able to speak to what your experiences were when you were in college?
- [66:07]
Yvette Lee Bowser
Yes, and I felt much more comfortable about tackling the very important and necessary issues of the day. I also had a college age son at the time, and I also knew which stories from my own Stanford experience 30 years prior were still relevant. And I went right back to that bucket and said, what about this? What about this? All of these kinds of personalities, they still exist in this environment, and they're still finding out who they are in this environment. And I really relish the opportunity to be back in that space again. I mean, and it's also the reason that I. Because I took that particular gig, I didn't do grownish with Kenya. It's like, call me. I'm like, I'm already doing. I'm already in the college environment. And then at a certain point also, you know, I was like, I'm good telling the college stories. I felt like after three hands on seasons, plus the five that I had on a different world, I'm like eight seasons of, you know, 18 to, you know, 24 year olds.
- [67:22]
Lena Waithe
I'm good on Dear White People. A decision you made was for costume design. You brought back a blast from the past, from a different world to come do costume design on Dear White People. What was that experience like reuniting and sort of building that bridge as well, and having Dear White People now becoming sort of a part of that lineage of a different world.
- [67:41]
Yvette Lee Bowser
Right. I thought it was quite a coup, quite frankly. I mean, Ceci is a brilliant costume designer. She's a dear friend. She's my SO role. And, you know, we kind of grew up together on A Different World, which I believe Was her one of her first costuming jobs, if not the first. And I just knew how, like, creative and innovative she was. And when you talk about, you know, the then and the now of From a Different World to Dear White People, knowing how young people dress and upcycle things and put looks together, there was no other person that made sense to me. And when I introduced Ceci to Justin and she showed, you know, her ideas and he talked about his ideas, it was just like a love fest. It just worked from the beginning.
- [68:30]
Lena Waithe
How did it feel for you just being back in that sort of, I say, college environment, but rather that world and having had the experience that you had, and now coming in to showrunner and guide that show, it's interesting because.
- [68:46]
Yvette Lee Bowser
It was a full circle moment, but it also felt like a new beginning. Like, it was really kind of like a really powerful, like, energy injection for me creatively, because it was a different kind of show. It was next level challenge, you know what I'm saying? Like, I'd come from multicam, I'd worked on single cams, but nothing quite as visionary and cinematic as what Justin wanted to do with Dear White People. And then also, particularly the way we handled storytelling in seasons one and two with the Rashomon and the single protagonist of it all was really innovative and really had a unique set of challenges that just invigorated me. Just really invigorated me. And we figured that out kind of, you know, episode by episode, piece by piece, character by character. And to be able to, like, go through that casting process with him, like, first of all, to have him, you know, get. Find a piece with not casting all of the original actors from the movie and the excitement in his eyes. When we found Sam, we found Coco. Like, I loved that for him, and it just gave me life. Just gave me life. And to see, you know, someone young and new to television, like, living their dream, a dream that I'd lived, that I didn't even dare to dream when I was coming up here. I was facilitating that for someone else. I mean, it just. It just. It beats me. Beats my soul.
- [70:27]
Lena Waithe
You continue to show up in these series that shift things and move things and make us see ourselves in a new light. How has that been for you?
- [70:42]
Yvette Lee Bowser
Just as a writer and as a creative, incredibly fulfilling. I mean, how can I not feel satisfied or fulfilled when I've been able to shift the culture not once, not twice, but multiple times, and not because of my own proclamation, but because of what the audience and individuals from that audience are telling me? You Know when you create a character and dare to fight for a character like Maxine shaw, and then 30 years later, people like Stacey Abrams, Marilyn Mosby, Ayanna Presley are saying, I became an attorney and chose a life of public service because of Maxine Shaw. It's been worth it. Every sacrifice, every struggle, every debate with actors holding wooden spoons. You know what I'm saying? If that's what it takes to get to that level of impact, I'm here for it. I'm here for it all day. Just like I say, if it scares me and excites me in equal doses, give me more, Give me more till they snap the lid on my coffin. That's what I'm here for.
- [72:03]
Lena Waithe
Well, it clearly costs you something. I think that's what I think we all learn. When you see these careers such as yours and legacies that you've built, it costs you something, costs you free time. It costs you time with your family. It costs you so many things. And I think we're all grateful for the sacrifice or grateful for all that it has cost you. In order to build this beautiful tapestry of stories and characters and people that continue, we continue to revisit and rewatch, which I think is a true sort of definition of a successful show or art. Not if you just watch it the first time, but you want to keep going back, which is what your work always is. We want to keep revisiting the work.
- [72:51]
Yvette Lee Bowser
Quite a testament.
- [72:53]
Lena Waithe
True.
- [72:53]
Yvette Lee Bowser
Thank you.
- [72:53]
Lena Waithe
Yes, thank you. Thank you. Last question. What's your definition of a really great television writer?
- [73:01]
Yvette Lee Bowser
My definition of a really great television writer is someone who has vision and loves the work. You put love in, you get love out, and people love it.
- [73:16]
Lena Waithe
Well, I think you described yourself. Cause you are, I think, one of the greatest television writers alive. Because you continue to be great and you continue to evolve. But there is a through line in the work that we know it's you. And I think that's one of the things we all want to emulate when it comes to you, is that we want the work to feel so specific to us, so signature to us. And it's really the reason why we all want to touch the hem of your garment. Because it's a difficult thing to be yourself on the page. And I think you have done such a elegant and humorous job at showing us all how to do that. But also what I've learned in looking at your work is that you're not afraid to work with other talent, particularly actors. I'm learning in the development process to help them find their voice and not letting yours be silenced in the process.
- [74:27]
Yvette Lee Bowser
Yeah, I find it easy to be generous. It's hard for me to be stingy. Like, if I'm not giving to you, you have effed something up. It's just kind of. It is.
- [74:38]
Lena Waithe
It's.
- [74:39]
Yvette Lee Bowser
It's my nature. I think it's because I just come from a place of wanting everyone to live their dream. There's a better life for each and every one of us. And if I can facilitate that for someone, if I have bandwidth, if I have the time, if I have a similar vision, I'm here for it. I'm here for it. I mean, I particularly loved the opportunity working with Justin on Dear White People, because he did let me put my thumbprint on top of his handprint because that's his baby, you know? But if you give me a little room, give me a little space in here, I'm good. I don't need to fill up the room. I don't need to be in control. You know, there's something good about just kind of quietly. You got this sitting on the perch on the couch.
- [75:44]
Lena Waithe
On the couch.
- [75:45]
Yvette Lee Bowser
That feels good.
- [75:46]
Lena Waithe
Observing. You've earned it. You earned it sitting on the couch. Okay. We're all grateful. Thank you for doing this.
- [75:52]
Yvette Lee Bowser
Oh, thank you. It was practically painless. Are we done?
- [75:58]
Lena Waithe
I love you. Thank you. We are. Now we're done. Yeah.
- [76:01]
Yvette Lee Bowser
Okay.
- [76:02]
Lena Waithe
Now you can breathe.
- [76:03]
Yvette Lee Bowser
This is lovely.
- [76:04]
Lena Waithe
See, that's good.
- [76:05]
Yvette Lee Bowser
Thank you.