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- [00:00]
A
A few weeks ago, we got to sit down with someone who has been at the very centre of the World cup for 40 years as a player, a broadcaster, and now as one of the biggest voices in podcasting. Full stop. Drumroll.
- [00:14]
B
Gary Lineker. And we did not waste time on his favourite goals. Although you actually did try to waste time on that, Peter.
- [00:21]
A
I did try. I was hoping, Afra, you know, I know Gary's a good friend of yours. I was hoping he would be so thrilled talking to, meeting me for the first time. He'd offer to have a kick around, but he, he didn't buy, he wasn't interested. So I didn't really get too far.
- [00:34]
B
Oh, come on. I think, you know, when, when people ask Gary, like, what was the highlight of the 2026 World cup, he's going to be saying, I got to do a podcast for Peter Frankopan. Yeah, that's life dream fulfilled.
- [00:45]
A
I'm stupid and easily flattered. I get to pretend that he actually said that, but it was great to have him on and, you know, and I think we, we talked a bit about what we wanted to ask him and it wasn't about which, which his best or favorite goals were.
- [00:56]
B
No. I mean, yes, but no. We wanted to ask him the question that this whole series has been circling, but that I think he is such a profound person to speak about it and that is this idea that you can and should keep politics out of football. And I just can't think of a better person to have that conversation with than someone who has played World Cups under machine gun guard, who has been inside the Kremlin to meet Putin and, and who has lost a very well paid job in public service broadcasting for saying what he thinks about facts on global news.
- [01:36]
A
And that's important because, you know, football is often referred to as the beautiful game, but sport is never far away from politics. You know, we think about that just in terms of, you know, the fact that everyone wears a national team, team shirt. And as, as we know, Afro people have very strong opinions about who has the right to win, wear which shirt, what you should be entitled to say and do, and to get Gary Lineker's views about what it felt and how he sees things because of his experience was completely invaluable.
- [02:02]
B
It was so invaluable and it's so reaffirming for us, Peter, because talking about the history and legacy of the World cup, we've seen how from its absolute inception, it has never in its whole history managed to be just a game. It's always been political, whether you look at the World cup during its founding era of Mussolini, during the Argentine junta, during the when it was held in Russia, when it was held in Qatar, and now in 2026 in the United States, which has been at war with another playing nation, Iran, and which has been shrouded with, as Gary described it, a nervousness that he's never felt before in a World cup tournament in his life.
- [02:45]
A
Hello and welcome to a new episode of Legacy. I'm Peter Frankenberg.
- [02:49]
B
I'm Afra Hash I.
- [02:50]
A
And this is Legacy, the show that explores the lives, events and ideas that have shaped our world and asks whether they have the reputations that they truly deserve.
- [02:59]
B
This is Gary Lineker and the politics of the World Cup.
- [03:07]
A
Thanks for joining us on Legacy today. To support the show, do please sign up on Legacy.
- [03:12]
B
You can enjoy early access, fewer ads, Q&As and bonus content, and in fact, this very series, because the third and final part of our conversation with Gary is going to be exclusively available as a bonus episode just for our Legacy subscribers. And that's where Gary gets into the really meaty topics of racism in the game, the trouble with FIFA, and what's going on with the women's game.
- [03:39]
A
So if you want all three parts, sign up to Legacy. Supportingcast Saf we were lucky to catch Gary in the build up to the World cup, and the conversation came at a pretty good moment.
- [03:49]
B
It really did. We sat down with Gary just as the build up to the 2026 World cup was getting really weird. Peter and I say that because this is maybe the first time that the host nation has been actively in a war with another of the competing nations. And not long after, FIFA made the surprising decision to create and award a special peace prize to none other than the president of the host nation, Donald Trump.
- [04:21]
A
So we've got all of that. We've got the ideas about history and Gary Lineke talking about previous World Cups, too, and his experiences. It's such an interesting conversation.
- [04:29]
B
And even the question of since some of us are having visa issues with the US As a result of our critique of its involvement in foreign policy, which has catastrophic humanitarian consequences, whether Gary would actually even be allowed into the country. And that definitely would have been a curveball if he wasn't.
- [04:49]
A
So what a great time to be talking to Gary Duke about football, politics, visas, FIFA prizes. You're going to enjoy it.
- [04:57]
B
Okay, Gary, we're going to go straight in. And as Gary knows, I don't necessarily follow all, all the intricate details of Football. That's why Peter's here, because I know that he does. But one thing I do love is the World Cup. I love the World cup. And part of the reason I love the World cup is because I feel like everything is there. Obviously amazing football, but also identity, national dynamics and always politics. And so my first question, Gary, is people always say this thing. I've heard it repeatedly throughout my life that you should keep politics as out of football. And the more I learn about the history of the World cup, it's drenched in politics. Whether you look at 1934 and Mussolini or the Argentinian junta in the 1978 World cup and Russia in 2018, Qatar in 2022. Is there such thing as a no politics World Cup?
- [05:51]
C
No, no. Much as people would like to it to be that way, no, there isn't. I've covered so many World Cups, I played in a couple as well. And there's always some aspect I remember In Mexico in 86, you know, it was in the time of, you know, quite dangerous. I wasn't aware of it myself at the time. Subsequently I've. I've watched various documentaries and stuff and what was going on in that country in 86, in 1990, it was at the era of hooliganism and Thatcher was trying to stop the English team taking part at some point or stopping fans going to. To support the team and take the. You know, you mentioned one yourself in recent years. You've got, you know, hosted by Brazil in 2014 and there were mass demonstrations on the streets about the fact that why are they spending all this money on stadiums when they could be spending it on, you know, infrastructure of the country and coach hospitals, etc. You skip forward to 2018 and Russia who re not long before had invaded Crimea and we know where that's escalated to. So Qatar 2020, 2021. In the end, they played it right at the end of the year there. So they had, you know, obviously LGBTQ rights. There were deaths of lots of builders that were brought into the country to build the stadium. So there's always something. Thankfully, we're going into a World cup where there's no controversy.
- [07:26]
B
We're going to come to the US 2020 completely politics free World Cup.
- [07:32]
C
But you can't. You. How can it be politics free when you're dealing with the world and the coming together of different countries to. It's in an ideal world, it would be, I would say tribalism should be left just to football and not to everything else that Swiss damage in. But know Politics is always part of football. And you, you can't separate the two. I mean, FIFA have always pretended, have always pretended that they want to keep the two things apart. But until probably recently when they gave the FIFA, the inaugural FIFA Peace Prize to President Trump and well, that if you're awarded it, I don't know who's going to win it next year. I mean, whether it be Netanyahu or Putin, maybe Putin will get it.
- [08:23]
B
But speaking of Putin, Gary, I know that you have been inside the Kremlin and I think you refused to actually meet Putin, didn't you? Because, well, there are so many good reasons one could refuse to meet Putin. But how do you compare your experience of being a player? And as I understand it, players are really, and you've told me this, deliberately kept quite sheltered because they have to focus on the game versus everything. You see now as somebody who does enter those rooms and is very. Not just aware of the politics, but you have been consistently vocal about it. How do you reconcile the kind of sheltered earlier you with the you now? And do you think it's right that players are kept that much in the dark?
- [09:02]
C
I'm not sure they kept in the dark, but I think they're encouraged by clubs, by their agents, by people in charge of the media at football clubs just stay out of things. And I understand it, I understand it because you never know what a player might say about certain issues. At the same time, the players that are brave enough to speak out on, you know, human rights issues, et cetera, I have a huge amount of respect for, because it's very, very difficult climate to do it. When I grew up, there were no social media. There wasn't really a platform to do that sort of thing, whereas there is now. That's where it changed for me. I think the fact that suddenly you've got social media. There was Twitter and latterly probably Instagram that I've used, where suddenly you've got this platform to speak about things that you might be interested in, that you might be upset by, et cetera, et cetera. So. But when I played that, even if I'd have had the wherewithal of known all world events and what was going on around me, I'm not sure where or how I could have those opinions across because there wasn't a platform to do it.
- [10:17]
A
Do you think, Gary, is that something that players talk about in the dressing group between they forget about what they do to the outside world? But is. Is that when you were playing, was that something that, that some players Talked about. No players talked about. There were groups who were interested in the politics or the history of the countries you're playing against. Or was it your job was to go there, play football, listen to what the team talk was about, get yourself in the right frame and in fact, slightly incidental what the. What the big geopolitical tapestry is like.
- [10:43]
C
Yeah, I don't think too many footballers are big on the geopolitical tapestry, but. But they do. They have a general idea of. Of what's going on. And footballers are basically a cross section of working class society generally. Generally you will get the odd person from the middle classes who might have gone to private school. Very, very, very few. So did we have those conversations about what was going on with. We would have done an Italian it about because obviously the hooliganism issues and Thatcher got involved and. And yes, we would have spoken about that. We would have been nervous that whether we be pulled out of a tournament, because that was sort of speculated at one stage. It's such a long time ago since I played. It's hard to remember the conversations that you had had. But I think by and large they won't be sort of deep conversations amongst the players about these things. Because you do live, particularly in a World cup, may I say, you live in this kind of. You just this little bubble of your own where you're totally focused on. You don't. I mean, it's probably changed because you get outside news now, which we didn't have any of that when we played. So you should kind of in this little bubble of your own thing, you're looking at other games, you're talking about football and nothing else enters your mind. And also, I remember we played in Mexico, we didn't see a newspaper. We didn't. It was just. You got one call. I think we were allowed one call or two calls a week.
- [12:18]
A
Crikey.
- [12:19]
C
And it had to be from reception because that's the only place he had phones. So I mean, it's a dramatic change now. I don't know the conversations that would take place now amongst the players. I suspect some of them will be interested in things beyond football. A lot of them in terms of talking politics wise, you know, Marcus Rasham, for example, I mean, we, we know that he's made a significant difference to this country in terms of feeding young children. I'm immensely proud of him for doing that as a young footballer. But I think most of them just want to get on with playing and actually sort of encourage that a bit because the world's in such a mess or you're going to. I mean, there's so often now that I go on Instagrams or, you know, on social media and I think, oh, and. And it's you depress within seconds. So I think they'll be protected for that. They've got to focus, especially during a World Cup. I mean, they're so, so intense. World cup. So intense that I doubt the coaches would. And the co. The managers of the players, etc, they would want to ignore all outside noise.
- [13:31]
B
You're an example of the power of when somebody who does have that platform does speak out, but also the penalty attached to that. And we're talking about the World Cup. I mean, we could talk about so many, I think, very courageous things you've done, but I just want to look ahead to the US you were reported to be having conversations with the White House about your visa situation. I really latched onto that because I'm having visa situations with the US US at the moment, because even though I have a valid visa, they've made it clear that people who have been outspoken and criticized US policy, for example, supporting Israel's war on Gaza, supporting or criticizing the US And Israel's war on Iran, that people who've done that may have their visa revoked, even if they've not committed any crime or said anything false. So that's been affecting me personally. I'm really curious, has that affected you? And how is this World cup going to work if people who have commented on the US in a critical light are not able to travel to the
- [14:32]
C
U.S. well, let's see if that transpires or not. I suspect it won't. I mean, I'm sure over there in America, they're very much champions of free speech, right? Yeah.
- [14:44]
B
I mean, they have it in their Constitution, in the First Amendment, so it must. Exactly.
- [14:48]
C
So I'm absolutely confident they will support us in the sense of having our views. That's what I would say. Whether that proves to be the case or not, I don't know. Or. Or like we see in this country, freedom of speech is great and everyone's for it. Whilst they agree with you, once you offer an opinion that maybe they don't agree with, maybe they're not so keen on freedom of speech. We'll see. We did get a note. I did. I've not talked to the White House about that.
- [15:22]
B
Are you telling me that something I read in a tabloid is not true? Gary?
- [15:26]
C
No, it wasn't. Well, exactly. But the White House did contact us about our podcast Stroke Netflix show that we're going to do, obviously in the summer, which we're really looking forward to saying that they have massive respect for our podcast, that they want to help and contribute in some way. So hopefully we'll be all right.
- [15:47]
B
Let me just get this straight. So the Trump White House is a massive fan of. The rest is football and everything you do, Gary.
- [15:52]
C
It didn't have President Donald J. Trump's name at the bottom of the letter, but interestingly, it did have, as the name at the bottom of the letter was somebody Giuliani, who's apparently the son of.
- [16:06]
A
I would take a giant gold microphone to get a present in the White House at the Oval Office, Gary. And he'll, you know, you get invited for McDonald's dinner with him that evening.
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C
God, it's, it's. Yeah, that. Yeah. Okay.
- [16:18]
A
But so do you think that the only way that an England team, for example, would ever refuse to play in a World cup would be because the FAA took a view rather than the players themselves? I mean, however, you know, I take the point that footballers have got their jobs to do and they're not necessarily following the news every day. But, but Trump is so loud, it's quite hard to avoid what's happening. And with the war in Iran, does that mean that the structure of the game means that it's the people in suits at the top who have to take a brave decision? And would they ever take a brave decision?
- [16:46]
C
I suspect not. I am concerned in all seriousness about this, this particular World cup because, you know, obviously they were talking about visa bans on a lot of countries that wouldn't allow certain visas in different levels of what you'll be allowed in or not, including countries that have qualified for the World cup, quite a few countries that qualify. One of them is Brazil. I mean, so the players are going to need visas to play in this competition. So I suspect, I mean, I've been part of so many World Cups and before them all the talk is about the negative issues and the, the worries and the concerns and this. And then once the football start, it tends to be okay. But in this one, I am, I am a little bit more concerned. I do suspect that, because Trump flips obviously all the time. So I, I'm hopefully flip on this, the war in Iran because. Or it taxing on Iran, hopefully that he'll end that and claim victory, probably. And also I think with the same with the visas in terms of the World cup, because this, the World cup is a big deal, whether you like it or not football wise, not just football wise, but worldwide. And it does bring, it's been so joyous. It brings people together, people from all different parts of the world. And it just shows that actually human beings just want to have a good time and live peacefully and get on with their lives. You know, the people that are always on the receiving end of the awfulness of war, etc. Are those that have no part to play in it, really. That's never. The people that make the decisions on these things that suffer. So. But hopefully, but whereas always I've known that once the World cup starts, will focus on the football. With this one, I'm, I have a slight doubt. I still think, hopefully that will be the case and, but, but it is a worry.
- [18:45]
B
The difference is with Qatar, for example, where you were also quite outspoken. I mean, there were lots of concerns, as you said, about Qatar. The difference is Qatar really, really wanted the World cup to go ahead smoothly, to prove that it was a global place, that it was open for business, etc. The US feels quite unusual in the sense that it is sending hostile signals. It's really ambivalent about whether it wants people to, to come. It's, it's invested all this money and, you know, energy in promoting the World cup, but now it, it's kind of completely unsure what, it can't even make its mind up about why it's at war in Iran, let alone whether it wants people from Haiti and Brazil to come and enjoy football or not. And when the host country is sending mixed signals, then you feel really uneasy. Right, like anything could happen.
- [19:29]
C
Yeah, exactly. So we don't know, do we? Don't, we don't know what is going to happen. But at the same time, you know, Trump was at the draw for the World Cup. He's been, he's Infantino's been in his off in the White House with Trump. So, you know that I think they get how important this is. You know, they've got a whole part of the, the White House that is in charge of the World cup and what's going to happen. I think they really do want this to be a success and it's not just their World Cup. Let's mention Canada and Mexico as well. So their relationships with Canada is a bit on and off as well. But I don't think we've ever gone into a World cup quite with the degrees of nervousness, I think all around. And I can't imagine what FIFA are thinking at the moment, just whatever noises they make, I think that they'll be deeply concerned that. That what the events in the world at the moment.
- [20:29]
A
But why is it, Gary, that Infantino and FIFA, I can't understand if they were concerned about how erratic the US Might be and therefore trying to get in front of the traffic and to sort of to make Trump feel happy. But why have they put so much effort into the World Football Prize and all this sort of show and pageantry that to the rest of the world looks completely crazy? It looks like FIFA's bowing down in front of the US Rather than saying, look, if you're going to sanction players, you're going to ban individuals, you're not going to let fans come in, we might have to pull the tournament. I mean, is FIFA in hock to the US Is that just bad judgment, or is it skillful diplomacy that in fact just we're being too critical about an organization that's had its fair share of criticism over the years?
- [21:10]
C
Well, it's quite some years ago, obviously, that they decide which country hosts the World Cup. They decided on America. You know, they seem quite obsessed with growing the sport in America, so they wouldn't have foreseen the issues that they've now, now come up against. And I think what's happened is, well, here we are, we're in this situation, the World Cup's coming to. To us. How can we make the US Government keen on. On hosting it? And so, I mean, we. We've seen it not just with FIFA, but we've seen it with politicians around the world, and they behave in a certain way towards Donald Trump. You know, people are talking about Sicafantino, which I thought was quite, quite a good nickname. And, you know, and. But he's not the only one that. Well, you see, world leaders do it. They go and sit on that chair and they, you know, because. Because obviously, if you. It seems to be. If you really nice to him, they. Then you'll get a good reaction from him. Whether he actually respects you for that, I don't know. But it's unpredictable and it's unpredictable. Will FIFA like the unpredictable nature of this? No, they definitely won't. They won't say it, but of course they won't. They'll be nervous at the moment.
- [22:23]
B
Would you refuse to meet Trump the way you refuse to meet Putin?
- [22:26]
C
Probably, once I've got my visa.
- [22:31]
B
Wait till you get your visa before we broadcast this episode.
- [22:34]
C
I've always kind of tried to avoid that. I mean, I was in the. As you quite rightly said, I did the draw for FIFA for the World cup in, for the 2018 World cup and it was at the Kremlin and I was asked to go meet Putin prior to the, prior to the event. I mean, he did speak at the event. Yeah, I, I didn't think it was a good thing to do. They didn't, but, you know, they've invaded Crimea, not like a few years, but a couple of years before. Three, four years before that. I don't know, I've never had this desperate need to, to meet really famous people. I mean, from what I hear, Trump, whenever he's with someone, he's really engaging and quite warm and you think to yourself, you know, but, but there's also the other side at the moment. So. No, I, I have no desire and I suspect I won't be called to the White House for a meeting. Anyway.
- [23:32]
A
If you saw Trump in football, kit Gary trotting out of a tunnel, what position would you be expecting him to play?
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C
I don't know, I was trying to think, who plays in orange? Blackpool, don't they? I don't know. Yeah, he's, he's older than me, so we're both past it.
- [23:48]
A
So I don't think he said he's a tall, he's a tall lad. He's six.
- [23:53]
C
He's big.
- [23:53]
A
Yeah.
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C
He'd probably play at the back, wouldn't he? I think, I think I'd do him on the turn even now.
- [24:02]
B
Wow, that was such an interesting conversation, Peter. And I have to say I am biased because I am a friend of Gary's, but I always find it so refreshing and I do speak to other sports figures, TV personalities, really well known public figures. And Gary does stand out in just how open he is and candid about his experiences, his thoughts, his struggles. And I just find that really refreshing because you can genuinely learn from him, sharing in a way that doesn't feel self censored or contrived to build a specific impression. He's just sharing his honest, frank experiences and they are such interesting experiences, the spaces, the pictures, the rooms he's been in.
- [24:44]
A
Well, it's amazing how eloquent he is. I mean, I don't think that should come as a surprise. Anybody who's watched his career since, since he retired from football. But, you know, he's, he's had a very distinguished time, not just talking about how the game gets played, but around the architecture, around it too. And, you know, you can feel that he's has thought deeply about a lot of these questions and because he's been experienced both from the Broadcast side. And as a player, he's also speaking, I think, for how footballers need to think about the game as well. You know, the next generations of Gary Linekers who are going to find their way from the, from the pitch onto the commentators so far will need to have got quite hard footsteps to tread in because, you know, he has thought about these questions about politics and about identities and around about know, how do you square the fact that this is entertainment but at the same time is much, much more than that. So, you know, when you and I talked Afra about thinking about how we could add to the story of the World cup and not just doing it through the ways in which the great goals or the great matches of the past have been played, you know, it was, it was obvious that we wanted to talk about through the colonial lenses and through the ideas of how does this look from elsewhere? And in fact, Gary's quite disarming when you ask us something that he hasn't thought about. You know, he doesn't bluff his way out of it like politicians do. He's interested in trying to think and learn too, which is quite unusual.
- [26:00]
B
It's such a brilliant way to start these series of conversations with him. And when we get to the next part, I'm just as excited because we are going to move on from the politics of the game to something much more personal. What happens when a team that was once colonized lines up against the team from the nation that did the colonizing? And we are going to hear Gary's thoughts on that as well as ours. So I really hope you'll join us to hear more.
- [26:31]
A
Thanks for listening to Legacy. Join us next time for part two of our conversation with Gary Lineker. Nation identity and what happens when football carries the weight of history.
- [26:41]
B
And remember, part three of this conversation on racism, FIFA and the women's game is a bonus episode just for our Legacy plus subscribers. We really love our subscribers and we want you to get the benefit and joy of being one of them. So to do that, sign up to Legacy, where you will get bonus episodes. Early access, fewer ads, Q&As and more. Go to Legacy Supportingcast FM.
- [27:09]
A
And don't forget, you can watch all of our episodes on Spotify and YouTube too. And for everything else, including our substacks and updates on TikTok and Instagram, just check out the show notes or search Legacy Podcast. I'm Peter Frankenberg.
- [27:21]
B
I'm Afwa Hash and we'll see you on the next episode of Legacy.