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- [00:00]
Afua Haysh
Wondery subscribers can binge seasons of Legacy early and ad free. Join Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. This episode contains depictions of violence and discusses sexual assault. Listener discretion is advised.
- [00:24]
Peter Frankopan
Hello and welcome to the second episode of our series on Chinggis Khan. We left Chinggis at this time still known as Temujin, on the verge of bringing together the Mongol peoples under his rule, something that never been done before. It's been a stunning rise.
- [00:41]
Afua Haysh
He's already made a name for himself as a formidable and ruthless leader, but he's going to have to win one more battle against a larger army led by a man once his closest friend, to take absolutely power over the united Mongol clans. The step may be vast, but there is not room for both Temujin and Jammuha. Whichever one is defeated will lose everything.
- [01:13]
Peter Frankopan
From Wandery and Goal Hanger. I'm Peter Frankopan. I'm Afua Haysh and this is Legacy, the show that tells the lives of the most extraordinary men and women ever to have lived and and asks if they have the reputation that they deserve.
- [01:37]
Afua Haysh
This is Chinggis Khan, Episode two the Unstoppable Khan.
- [01:51]
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- [03:51]
Peter Frankopan
So it's the spring of 1204, and the steppe is coming to life after the long winter. But before Temujin can start chasing his dreams, he has to deal with the one remaining power block standing against him. The Nayman and Jamukha, his childhood friend turned bitter foe, who's attached himself to the Nayman with his army.
- [04:11]
Afua Haysh
This was inevitable, Peter, and has been building to a climax ever since Temujin defeated the Karaite.
- [04:17]
Peter Frankopan
Yeah, I think what's inevitable is there's going to be a standoff, and it's winner takes all. I think it's not clear that Temujin is going to win. In fact, you'd think that it would be more likely that the Nayman would demolish the Mongols. And I should say that there's a lot at stake in all of this. How do you prepare for this big battle? And how do you make sure that you know everything's in place before you commit to it? And that's the kind of calling card that Temujin has. He's thoughtful, but he plans in advance, too.
- [04:41]
Afua Haysh
And another calling card he has is the way he organizes his army and the territories that he's conquered. He divides each one into nine units and appoints a local governor at the head. And wherever possible, he uses locals to administer their own territory. I guess it's a bit like what Britain did in West Africa with indirect rule. And it's clever because it's making them assimilate into the structures of Mongol leadership for their own people.
- [05:08]
Peter Frankopan
He's a classic management consultant, really loves creating structures. I could picture him with a big TV screen and a PowerPoint explaining where everybody sits. You know, nothing happens without good planning in advance, but he does it instinctively. The main thing is, though, that he tells all of the different groups underneath him that he's in charge. And as long as they recognize his overlordship, everything will be okay. If you stand up to Temujin, if you resist, then the punishment is going to be severe.
- [05:35]
Afua Haysh
It's funny to imagine him as a management consultant, Peter, because there's another way in which he fits quite neatly into the modern age, which is that his first campaign is disinformation. And this will also become a trademark. He tries to fool the Naiman by flooding them with fake news, eg, sending a horse into the naming camp, an old, decrepit horse, to show how poor his horses really are, so that they underestimate his might.
- [06:01]
Peter Frankopan
One thing he does also in May 1204, is he's able to move really quickly. So he marches almost 700 miles with his forces into the heart of Nayman territory and pushes the Nayman back to Mount Naku, which is where, just before the battle starts. And true to form, Shamukha deserts the Nayman, which deprives him the numerical advantage. But that's a sign that the wind is in Temujin's sails.
- [06:25]
Afua Haysh
And when the battle begins, Temujin leads the charge in person, which is a mark of the significance of this battle to him and his legacy. The Naymen are forced higher and higher up the mountain, so that many fall to their death from the steep cliffs. And it leaves the final few surrounded on the summit, trapped at the top of the mountain. And those remaining Naymen are cut to pieces by Temujin's forces, leaving a decisive victory. That victory persuades any remaining clans who were holding out against Temujin to submit to him. And that only leaves one element still refusing to submit, and that is Jammukha. And he is still on the run.
- [07:08]
Peter Frankopan
What you're taught in Sandhurst, in any military academy, any period in history, is always hold the higher ground. It's much easier to defend from the top rather than being pushed upwards. But even in this, Temujin is able to defy gravity again. It doesn't matter whether these descriptions are absolutely accurate, but what it's saying is that Temujin is able to beat the odds despite everything. But the reality is that he's worked out how to scatter superior forces. So amongst the prisoners is a man called Tatatonga, who is the keeper of the Great Seal of the Nayman. And when it's explained to Temujin how important writing is, Temujin, who's not literate, makes Tadatonga the keeper of the new Mongol Seal, which he will write. And that stamp is going to be important. But also he figures that he needs to improve his children's abilities too. So he appoints Tadatonga tutor to his sons, instructing that they should learn how to read and write, because administrative power is in itself an important way of tying the sinews of a budding empire together.
- [08:08]
Afua Haysh
We can't forget about Jamuha, Peter. He's still around. He's still on the run. And Temujin will not let it go. He looks for Jamukha. It takes months to track him down, but he finally finds him.
- [08:23]
Peter Frankopan
When Temujin captures Jammukha, he gives him a choice which is to either join him and be recognized and given rewards and blessings or to be executed. And Jamukha requests to die at the hands of Temujin and is therefore executed. But he does say in one of the great lines in history to Temujin, probably the only person who would have dared to say that is that in the black night I will haunt your dreams. And that I think is quite special because after all, Temujin, shortly to become known as Chinggis Khan, is the person who's going to haunt the dreams for generations, if for centuries. Which is why his name carries such a terrible legacy today. But anyway, we're now in 1206. Temujin is in his 40s, probably, but he's become the undisputed ruler of at least the eastern part of the steppes. He's the lord of all. And now he wants to be recognized as such.
- [09:24]
Afua Haysh
Spring 1206. The Onon River, Mongolia. Under a giant white canopy, Temujin sits flanked by his council of chiefs. The enormous tent is packed with representatives from conquered tribes. Meerkit, Naymans, Mongols, Kirits, Tatars and Uyghurs. He nods as their leaders file past, laying tributes at his feet. But his eyes keep returning to the glittering gold sword on top of the ceremonial altar. It's clear that the chiefs understand that any resistance they might offer will be met with crushing force. Force. With Jammuha gone, Temujin is now unopposed. He scans the large audience and spots the Prince of Wei, a Chinese dignitary and for now, a Mongol ally. He looks uneasy. Temujin's rise from step warrior to leader of a unified Mongolia flies in the face of the established world order. He now rules over territory containing more than 2 million people. This is an unprecedented, unprecedented power base. With the offerings complete, a council member stands. My Lord, we humbly request that you assume a new title. One that reflects your unequaled status. Now the golden sword is placed in his hands. He feels its great weight as he takes his place on a white, felt covered throne. In a commanding voice, Temujin tells the assembly, I accept on condition that all Mongols will recognize my authority to obey me without question, follow me without hesitation and kill for me without mercy. As Temujin holds the Sword aloft, a council member bellows. From the Khingan mountains to the Altai Range. From this day, all will submit to the authority of Chinggis Khan Khan. Hearing the name, a fiery passion erupts inside him. The world he was born into is over, vanquished by his own hand. Now he will take this united Mongolia forward, push the boundaries and test the limits of its power and his own.
- [11:40]
Peter Frankopan
So from this point, Afra, we get the name Chinggis Khan, which is how he's most famous, and it has a specific meaning.
- [11:47]
Afua Haysh
Peter Khan is supreme ruler. And Chinggis, which has had different interpretations over the centuries, could mean Khan of all who live in tents. I heard Khan of those who live in felt tents to Khan of the oceans, or universal ruler. But the most probable interpretation is probably fierce or tough ruler.
- [12:07]
Peter Frankopan
There's also an idea that maybe it's something to do with wolves. We talked about the origin story of Mongols in episode one. The point is not a literal translation. It's required, but it basically means the boss. You're someone to be feared. It's universal, it's fierce, it's dominant, and above all, it means I'm not yet finished. I think that's also part of it, is that you're someone who is going to keep on going. So I think that sense of a global, universal, all inclusive, it's a pretty important statement. And I think we shouldn't lose too much sleep about exactly translations. And in fact, we can get slightly lost in the weeds about it.
- [12:40]
Afua Haysh
And also lost in the weeds, I think sometimes is just this whole era of conquest, because it pales in comparison to his later conquest and the land empire that he later builds. But this is still a huge achievement at this point. His Empire is a 1,000 mile stretch from east to west, 600 miles north to south. It's a huge territory, but it's quality.
- [13:02]
Peter Frankopan
As well as quantity. The worlds that we're looking at now don't include the great centers of learning, of scholarship, built environments, artisans. I mean, they're substantial, they look big on a map, but it's what you then do with them. What it is that's happened here is that it's not so much the size, it's about the ways in which he's developed a kind of business plan. And I don't want to overdo the management consultancy jibe, but there's an idea that he's worked out how to incorporate, how to be inclusive. And the question now is, which direction is Chinggis Khan going to turn? You know, what comes Next and there, there are some fairly obvious big targets. You know, one is the worlds of China. It's a different territory to how we think of China today. Then there are these great cities in Central Asia from Samarkand, Bukhara and so on. We're going to talk about those. There's the world of Baghdad and the great centres of civilization further westwards. And then of course there's India and Southeast Asia as well. But I think that what is really interesting about Chinggis Khan now is he's managed to establish himself as a self made man. And that power of persuasion of someone who hasn't had things gifted to him means that people are going to watch to see what it is that he does next. And that's really exciting. Will he be able to build an empire that's going to be one of the greatest in history or is it just going to be another step entity that might lose its name and lose its identity over time?
- [14:25]
Afua Haysh
And one of the things about empires is that in order to maintain them, you need to keep making it beneficial. You need to keep supplying your imperial residents with goods and opportunities that make it advantageous. Empires very rarely feel like they've got enough. And being head of a disparate group of clans is never going to be enough for Chinggis Khan. He is going to go further actually than any leader has ever gone before. And for that to happen, he's got to mold the Mongols into one to make them one fighting force unlike any the world has ever seen.
- [15:11]
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- [16:17]
Afua Haysh
One of the disservices, I think the caricature of Genghis Khan as this marauding warlord has done is deprive us of insight into the way and the thoughtful ideas he brought into structuring the societies that he ruled. Peter and I found that so fascinating to learn about. I mean, there's a real order that he creates, and it has a real Chinggis Khan trademark. And we can really trace it to him and his original ideas about the best way to set up a society.
- [16:48]
Peter Frankopan
I'm never going to get asked to a conference on Mongolian studies ever again, where I've now introduced the idea of Chinggis Khan as a management consultant. So I should have tried to delete that early on. But that structure, it's right, you know, it's not just about rampaging power and total mass destruction. It's about systems. And nothing happens by chance. You can't build states of any kind. You can't build cities if you don't have any kind of planning, if everything's haphazard. And it certainly won't last for a long time. He divides up territories, units, military divisions in ways that are specific and measurable. For example, you have units of 10 called ARDAN. You have units of a hundred jagun and then Mingan of a thousand. And then there's a kind of 10,000 person unit. And there's conscription. And the point of conscription isn't just to provide military power. It's also to show that service is involved, that if you are part of this constellation, there's a requirement for you to put your labor at the disposal of the leader. But what Chinggis Khan now does is that he blends units together. So you don't just have tribal alliances or groupings where people from the same background are put together. There's dispersal to try to get of an overarching Mongol identity, to make everybody feel inclusive and included. And that, I think, is something that is quite progressive, really. And it allows you to know where people are and to know what they should be doing.
- [18:08]
Afua Haysh
And one of the things I found so interesting was that while the men are highly militarized and divided into these units, as you said, the women and children are also involved. They are now assigned to one of these Mingan units of a thousand. And their loyalty and identity is now with this rather than to the clan. That's quite an innovation. And he's ultimately more interested in forming new identities ordered around loyalty and service to the society that he's building.
- [18:35]
Peter Frankopan
And partly that's because you control competitors that way. You know, the last thing you want is a Jammukha who's able to gather together people who's related to and esteem him and value him highly, and to try to create challenges. So it's about modulating a society, to build it in your own image. So some of the things that the Mongols do, you know, they encourage similar hairstyles that are very different in different groupings. They try to encourage breakdowns of dress so that identities get softer. One of the things that then becomes a challenge is that as you conquer more territory, as you bring more people under your umbrella, can you find space for enough of them at the top table? And will your key retainers be willing to allow new entrants who haven't been involved for so long to come and join you? And that's something that we recognise in our own party political system here in the UK and elsewhere, too. Being a good leader is not just enough to have your loyal lieutenants, it's constantly looking for talent and sometimes bringing people alongside who have different points of view. But if you don't do that, one of the prices you pay is you have alternative power centres that could threaten and challenge you too.
- [19:34]
Afua Haysh
It's diversity. I mean, that's what the British army is trying to do, trying to include people from different backgrounds. Or you look at a police force like the Met Police, realising that they can't police a diverse population unless it's representative, and also trying to break up past loyalties and create a new identity so that people are loyal to the organization. There is something that feels quite modern about it.
- [19:57]
Peter Frankopan
What Genghis Khan does is he creates something called the keshig. So it's like a special golden circle around him, more than 10,000 people that he uses as a kind of control valve to put the high achievers, the ambitious, the ones who are going to potentially be troublesome so he can keep an eye on them. But the civil servants are the key to getting this done. A lot of those are from Uyghur backgrounds. So within the keshig, there are different units. There's a medical corps, there are surveyors, there are mapmakers, there are quartermasters, interpreters. You know, it's the kind of brains trust. And you've got to try and get all these people to work together.
- [20:31]
Afua Haysh
It's one of those systems that sounds good and makes a lot of sense in theory, but there is a glitch, and that is Chinggis Khan's family are not about to step back and assimilate into this wider meritocracy. They are the family of the leader and they have expectations as such. So Chingis gives each of his four sons with his first wife, forte land, troops and money. And this is One of the decisions that comes back to haunt the legacy of the Mongol Empire that he's created. Because, as is so often the case when a leader divides his territory among sons, they will not necessarily see eye to eye in how to keep things united in future. And then on top of that, he's got his younger brother, Cassar, he of the very broad shoulders, who he'd hunted with as a child to save the family during a really hard time in his teenagehood. And he has a really tricky relationship.
- [21:31]
Peter Frankopan
With Cassar on one occasion, apparently, Genghis Khan thinks his brother's such a pain, but also potential challenger, that he considers having him executed and is only stopped because their mother, Huellun, rides through the camp on a white camel. Chinggis Khan listens to his mother and spares him. But competition within families is really tricky. I think, funnily enough, that the Mongols do a pretty good job, as we'll see for Chinggis sons, partly because in stepnoman societies, inheritance and power doesn't necessarily pass from father to eldest son. In fact, it doesn't necessarily pass from father to son. There's always a lookout in rulership positions for who's best able, the leader. And the new king sometimes is a brother, sometimes might pass to somebody else within the family grouping. And that means that there's always a kind of competition. It's not clear who's going to take over next. That provides an insecurity that can be very threatening and damaging, but actually can be quite a good way of concentrating minds, because you're only as good as your last few months. So that's part of the success story, too.
- [22:32]
Afua Haysh
Another thing that Chinggis Khan does, which is right in my wheelhouse, is his interest in the law. In fact, I've heard him described as really the originator of the modern system of international law, although in its early stages. He isn't literate himself, Peter, but he understands the power of written codes, and he is interested in the idea of having a set of rules that everyone in his empire should live by. So he employs scribes to create the Great Yasser.
- [23:04]
Peter Frankopan
So the Zakar, or the Yasser we call it in English, is basically the Mongol rule book. And it's got lots of things that establish guidelines of what is acceptable behavior, what is not.
- [23:15]
Afua Haysh
I'm not sure what the British Human Rights act would make of some of these rules, but it applies the death penalty to crimes that speak to things that are of a particular concern to those living in Genghis Khan's empire at this time. So you can be sentenced to death for lying, taking food from another's mouth. I feel like that might have particular resonance in his own emotional hinterlands, given his history with his brother as a child. Urinating in running water makes sense, fair, interfering with religious worship and freedom. And that's really interesting because unlike European and some Middle Eastern empires at the time, he wasn't interested in policing religious thought. He was happy for people to have their own religious practices. And this is an era where we've got Christians, Buddhists, people who practice the traditional Mongol beliefs, where they worship the great God of the everlasting blue sky. All kinds of belief systems are living side by side. That's intentional to the extent that interfering with that is punishable by death. Some of my favorite laws, Peter, lack of respect for elders, stepping on the threshold of a chief's tent and hurting a horse's eyes.
- [24:26]
Peter Frankopan
That respect for animals is a really interesting one. I mean, the protection of and the sanctification of animal life is partly to do with the ways in which nomadic peoples interact with the worlds around them and the natural world around them, and also how they conceptualize the divine as well. You know, that's an important part of it. So, you know, we could look at it, the Mongol world, as being one that is tolerant and permissive. It's hard to be harmonious if you persecute people. And by and large, you know, the Mongols, for example, are very tolerant towards Judaism. And they will talk about how, as far as they know, Chinggis Khan himself had been educated by people of the Jewish faith, of Muslims, of Christians, to try to be all inclusive. Again, paralleling that with the world we see today. It works the other way around. In fact, leaders, particularly in the democratic world, want to establish their camp and beat the daylights out of people to disagree with them rather than trying to drawing things together.
- [25:18]
Afua Haysh
There is a layer above this tolerance for religious freedom, a bigger point about a secular state, because this is really the idea that the ruler is not that interested in the religious beliefs people practice as long as they adhere to a set of rules that actually stand apart from their personal identity or their personal faith. And that these are the rules that apply equally to everyone. And that really is a very modern idea, one that whose legacy we can now see all around us and recognize as quite standard. But it must have been quite a radical idea at the time. It gives us a sense of how meticulous a commander and ruler Genghis Khan is and how ambitious he is. He is being intentional about the society he's constructing. And he has a target in mind.
- [26:03]
Peter Frankopan
But before he gets there, he's got to make sure his newly assembled army is trained up to speed, practiced and battle hardened. And also to be kept busy. Because nothing a leader wants less than having lots of men on horses wondering where their next meal is going to come from. Or whether the leader is being ambitious enough.
- [26:22]
Afua Haysh
It's time for the great hunt.
- [26:27]
Peter Frankopan
Winter, 1207. The steppe. Mongolia. Urging his horse forward, Batu hears drums strike up in the distance. It means the circle has been completed. Glancing to his left, he sees a seemingly endless line of mounted soldiers receding into the distance. For months, they've been gradually advancing miles of men, coraling every living creature into an ever tightening ring. Soon, the landscape seems alive with animals. Rabbits starting from their hiding places. Terrified deer racing from side to side. 50 yards away, a streak of black zigzags through the scrub toward him. A wild boar breaking cover. Batu fumbles for his bow, but seconds later, an arrow whizzes by, sending the creature skidding to the ground. A soldier appears and drives a spear through the struggling pig to a chorus of cheers. As a small party of riders draws nearer, Batu feels his heart quicken at the sight of the great Chinggis Khan himself. Hears his deep voice call out, did the ball come this way? With a pang of envy, Batu watches a proud soldier declare, yes, my Lord. I killed it. I would be honoured to give it to you. Reining his horse in a tight circle, Chinggis Khan caused. Excellent work, soldier. The harvest will keep us going through the winter. Everything will be shared. Batu knows. Showing bravery in the Nerga, this ritual mass hunt can advance a soldier's career. Now, the presence of their commander in chief is too good an opportunity to waste. With Chinggis Khan still in sight, Batu slips from his horse, lance in hand, desperately searching for signs of movement. He prays for a chance to show his worth. To move up in the ranks. His dream is to emulate the legendary rise of the man who made all this possible. The incomparable Chinggis Khan.
- [28:34]
Afua Haysh
Wow, that sounds like quite a hunt, Peter. And it feels in line with everything Chinggis Khan does. Just on a scale almost impossible to imagine.
- [28:44]
Peter Frankopan
You know, if you've made it, you might as well have a bit of fun. And hunting, you know, is a way of showing your manliness. It's a way of practicing your military powers. But there's also an obvious way in which mankind or humans, show their dominance over the natural world. But it's also highly Symbolic, because there's a master involved in all of this. There's an opportunity to show off in front of him and it's a way of getting everybody else to see you display yourself with your greatest quality. So I think that the idea of hunting today feels to many people completely anomalous and wrong. But it's such an important part of the physical world and the natural world, and not just in the Mongol world and in Eurasia, but of course, in Europe at the time, too.
- [29:22]
Afua Haysh
And it's not just the exercise of hunting, the feeding, the celebrating with the army. This is a way of practicing a training exercise almost, so that they are working on their skills of communication whilst being deployed across really vast areas. It just always keeps coming back to the way that Chinggis Khan is strategic in all things.
- [29:44]
Peter Frankopan
That's right. And, you know, one of the things you have to have in a hunt is you've got to make sure you know where everybody is, because otherwise you put human lives at risk. So the discipline of holding a military force in the field and giving instructions is something the Mongols are unbelievably good at. So their army is organized, it's trained and it's ready. And now the time has come for Chinggis Khan to chase an even bigger dream of conquering the known world.
- [30:10]
Afua Haysh
He's going to take on one of the greatest powers on earth to attempt something that would have been unthinkable to almost anyone else. He's going to invade China. In 1211, Chinggis Khan marches his army across the Gobi Desert to launch his invasion of China. Since the end of the Tang Dynasty in 907, China's been divided into three powerful military dynasties, with the Qin in the north. The Qin lands stretched from a series of walls, precursors to the Great Wall to the Yangtze, an immense territory. And this is Chinggis's goal.
- [31:07]
Peter Frankopan
It's an audacious act. His army is divided into two columns and passes the walls in May before raiding across the north of Jin territory, trying to lure the Jin army into a pitched battle in terrain that suits the invaders, but the Djinn hold them off. The Mongols then advance into rocky territory, where the Jin think that they will have the better of them in such tricky terrain. But they could not be more wrong.
- [31:34]
Afua Haysh
September 1211. Huanetsui, Northern China. From his horse, Chinggis Khan watches as his second in command, Mugali's regiment, file into the ravine below him. The passage is full badger's mouth because of its long, narrow formation. He's calculated that crossing here will catch The Chin's forces off guard. He knows they're assuming that the high rocky terrain will hinder the progress of his cavalry. But his men get off their horses and walk where they must, moving as swiftly and effectively as ever. He also knows that if intercepted mid route, Magali's men would be trapped and slaughtered. Before he left, Megali promised him, I will not return alive if I do not defeat the Chin army. And as the unit disappears, Chinggis Khan anxiously scans the mountains for enemy scouts. The minutes feel like hours. During the six month campaign, they face little resistance. Moving deeper into Qin, China now, Chinggis Khan has the capital Zhongdu in his sights. If Magali's crossing is successful, it's a chance to deliver another body blow to the Chin, crush their morale and SAP their will to fight. While he waits, he studies his maps. With a stubby finger, he outlines where the arches should be placed for maximum impact. Then he hears it. Shielding his eyes, he looks up to see a speck moving against the deep blue. A signal arrow confirming Mogali's safe passage. With excitement, he tells the commander, when our attack begins, deploy archers to stop the Chin regrouping. Chinggis Khan's plan works. The Mongol army makes it through and their arrow power devastates their enemy. He raises a clenched fist in victory as once again the Qin are forced to flee with his fearless army in deadly pursuit.
- [33:36]
Peter Frankopan
So the Battle of Badger's Mouth, or Battle of Badgersnout, depending how you translate it, it's a huge triumph for Chinggis Khan and his army and his tactics. And it's one of those battles in history that gets ranked sometimes with those of Napoleon or Alexander the Great or Julius Caesar. I think that's probably pushing it a little bit, but it's the kind of turning point by which the Jin dynasty hastens its own decline and opens the door to a full expansion, eventually into Northern and then other parts of China too.
- [34:09]
Afua Haysh
And one of the reasons it's so important is because it's now opening up the Mongol march on China. And to understand why that's important, Peter, I think we need to know a little bit more about the situation in China at this time, the beginning of the 13th century. The Mongols are attacking the Qin Dynasty who control the north of China. But why is this such an important terrain for Genghis Khan to attempt to conquer?
- [34:32]
Peter Frankopan
It's partly because urban targets have large numbers of people in them and therefore they have large numbers of resources that you can cart off. Also, their cities and towns are centres of exchange. So there's taxable income and also money that you can get hold of. But above all, Genghis Khan's calculation is that the Jin are treating the Mongols not only badly, demanding their submission, but also trying to make alliances with potential rivals of the Mongols too. So they demand humiliation from Genghis Khan, and he's not the sort of man who'll take that lying down. So some of it is about the calculation of how to use his own force and power. Some of it is highly selective targets. That Yangtze river delta is one of the great rich fertile plains of the world, and therefore a great source of agricultural wealth. Some of it is about towns, but some is also preempting moves that might weaken him and the Juchen leaders of the Jin, who are the northeastern part of China now, where a place like Beijing are. It's a preemptive strike. But it's about Chinggis Khan translating his potential into proper, real power that might then allow other things to fall into the Mongols lap too.
- [35:41]
Afua Haysh
It's also a big test for this new Mongol army of probably around 110,000 men. They're up against a jin force of six times that. So this is a really important attempt that they're making. And it's really intriguing to me to think about who these soldiers actually are. They also had a pretty specific look. I would say the typical Mongolian soldier is wearing a fur coat down to the knees, felt boots and a fur hat with ear flaps, or a helmet made of leather with a steel cap.
- [36:11]
Peter Frankopan
It's totally autumn, winter 2026.
- [36:13]
Afua Haysh
This is a real fashion situation, 100%.
- [36:16]
Peter Frankopan
I can see it.
- [36:17]
Afua Haysh
They're wearing their armor over silk undershirts. Very luxury. And this isn't just as a fashion choice. It helps lessen arrow wounds, makes the arrowheads easier to extract. And they are doing all this while carrying their weapons. But unlike European knights of the same era, who were really heavily laden with this weighty metal armor, they're able to move around in a much more agile way. They each have an axe, a horsehair lasso. They carry two leather bags with water in one and dry clothes in another. But other than that, they're not laden with a ton of stuff. Their main weapon is the bow, with a range of about 300 yards, which was really exceptional at the time. And something they were absolutely known for, this skill and precision with the bow and arrow. And they can fire all of these arrows while riding at high speeds. Something that anyone who's listening who knows how to ride horses or has ever attempted to Ride a horse will know. To be able to gallop at full speed while firing arrows requires a huge amount of expertise training. And this is something that they'll train at from childhood. And not only can they ride forward while shooting arrows at high speed, they can also turn in the saddle and fire backwards while their horses are galloping.
- [37:38]
Peter Frankopan
As you say, children grow up learning how to do this. The training of Mongol horses is exquisite, about being able to get them to obey your commands. And it's like well trained dogs in terms of their ability to understand multiple and complex instructions. And it's absolutely natural for Mongols and other steppe peoples to be able to move at speed and do all these things. It's second nature to them. You mentioned this sort of horse that a European would have at this time during the Crusades. You know, you're carrying a mounted, knighted man who on his own will weigh 60, 70 kilos, maybe more, plus armour. It might be the same again. Mongol horses are short and stubby. They're very hardy. Typically, Mongols would have, particularly in battle contacts, would have two or three of them to fight on. So you can switch off to keep the speed going. So it's an incredibly agile force. And it means that when you come into contact with armies who fight in different ways, you've got a real competitive advantage. And when they move against the Djinn, one of the problems is that it's not just about sheer value of numbers. I mean, obviously, if you can move quicker, if you can do things that are disruptive, then it doesn't matter how many you're up against, because you have the tactical advantages that you can spring surprises to. So one of the things that the Mongols do when fighting against the Jinn is they feign a retreat that then draws out less disciplined soldiers, allows them to get surrounded, gets hacked to death and slaughtered, and then it becomes a slightly different story.
- [38:57]
Afua Haysh
One thing I found really interesting about these tactics of pursuing the enemy and pretend retreats as you explain them, Peter, is the comparison between other forms of warfare in other parts of the world at the time. So whereas in Europe there was this sense of honor in battle and glory in defeat, that was something completely unknown to the Mongols. There was no glory in losing. There was no losing. Well, to win, you had to kill the other side and you had to wipe out everyone. And that was something that was a very simple rule, which they followed throughout their military campaigns and often took their enemy unawares or made them underestimated by their opponents.
- [39:35]
Peter Frankopan
What happens, I think, with the Mongols is that they are treated in a different way because they are thought of. They've been written about in all these texts in China, for example, as being savage and being erratic and chaotic, and so that there's no sense that they could possibly be a match or a rival. So the Chinese or the Jin think that these are upstarts who deserve to be put in their place, and there'll be no problem in doing so. So they have a real advantage in that sense, that their abilities, their skills, their ambitions, their tactics are not thought about, not studied, and the djinn pay the price. But what about cities and towns? How is it when the Mongols start to get off the flatlands of the steppes and into urban settlements, how do they go about capturing or taking towns?
- [40:19]
Afua Haysh
Cities are not Chinggis Khan's forte. The Mongols actually have some quite dismissive attitudes towards cities in general. They think they're places of excess and debauchery. They think that nomadic life is the more civilized way of life. And they don't really understand, understand the DNA of city life as people who've lived on the step and in these gers. So when they come up against fortified cities and towns in China, they find that that is a struggle. And instead of agonizing over how they're going to conquer these cities, they just simply advance past them and they cut them off from the other parts of the territory. And that is a way of defeating cities without having to take them on directly. And after Genghis Khan is wounded during the unsuccessful siege of a city called Datong, they finally withdraw to the north and decide that they've taken enough of this part of China and that the challenge of overcoming these cities and their ability to hold out against sieges is just not worth their while.
- [41:22]
Peter Frankopan
One of the things that is really important for the Mongols, and it's characteristic in the next 40, 50 years too, as the empire massively grows and expands, is the willingness to learn from other people about how they do things. Quite soon after entering Jin territory, they pay a great deal of attention to finding Chinese engineers and siege specialists who do know how to attack towns, who do know how to undermine fortifications, and then they hire them. And that process of being open minded enough to say, we're going to learn, we're going to adapt, we're going to find new ways of doing things, is a really interesting thing, I think, about how to be learning on foot. By the time it gets to 12, 11, 12, 12, attention's turned to Zhongdu, where now Beijing is, and we get the Mongols laying siege to the city and sacking it.
- [42:13]
Afua Haysh
This is a really infamous sacking of Beijing and it's a really bloody scene. I mean, this is one of the notorious episodes that I think has helped paint this picture of Chinggis Khan and his forces as these marauding, violent conquerors. Because tens of thousands are murdered, many thousands of women are raped, temples are wrecked, many of them with ancient scriptures and relics inside. Palaces, parks, all laid waste. The estimates for the total number of people killed in this attack ranges from 300,000 to 1 million. And it's still described as one of the most seismic and traumatic events in Chinese history. And this for a country that is no stranger to seismic and traumatic events.
- [42:59]
Peter Frankopan
Peter, even I know this one. There's no point in trying to quibble with numbers. I mean, obviously the catastrophe and the chaos, the violence of the sack of Chengdu is sort of epic in its scale, size and notoriety. What happens afterwards is that Genghis Khan and his men return home laden down by loot, while his generals start to think about new targets. With Zhongdu down, it's where else will topple.
- [43:24]
Afua Haysh
The war in China will last for 23 years in total before Mongol victory is fully complete. And the Qin supply of manpower keeps it dragging on. But the war is effectively won. In those first five years, the Jin army is shattered on the field of battle and Genghis Khan is triumphant. And if we go back, Peter, to the beginning of this attempt to conquer the chin, we had 110,000 Mongols versus 600,000 chin. It's one of the reasons that the biographer Frank McLin has called this a mouse swallowing a lion. It is a David and Goliath story, really it is.
- [44:02]
Peter Frankopan
And it's very easy to underestimate the Mongols even today. And when you have a knockout blow delivered like this, generally mice don't swallow lions. You know, generally the underachiever doesn't overachieve. Suddenly, there are context and explanations for this. Some of it is about the sclerotic paralysis of the Jin world itself, the inability to make tactical decisions on the battlefield through to more strategic ones, not just relation to the Mongols, but also within the state itself. Some of it also, as we can measure now through lots of climate archives, is that in this exact window, we have one of the most significant rainfall patterns in the eastern steppes in Mongolia for a thousand years. And that allows enormous amounts of pasture land to open up. That essentially allows unlimited numbers of horses to be able to be bred by the Mongols in quite rapid time to allow them to have more horses on the field each soldier with more resources at their disposal. In a way, it's the first piece of a much bigger set of jigsaw pieces that fall into place by knocking out the Jinn introduces the Mongols into a world that takes them outside the steppes for the first time properly. And that means that there are going to be questions much further westwards into Central Asia and beyond, where a lot will depend on will anybody be adept and smart enough to be able to stand in the way of Genghis Khan and his way of doing things. Can you adapt your model? And the Jinn obviously weren't able to.
- [45:28]
Afua Haysh
So that gives us a pretty comprehensive idea of what the war is like. Devastating, effective, unexpected. But there's also the peace that follows. And this is the part of Genghis Khan's legacy that I think is so often overlooked that it wasn't just laying waste to a place. It was then rebuilding it to become part of his empire. So once this part of China is conquered, an administration is set up. A Mongol governor is appointed, overseeing each local government. And after the carnage, there is peace. Those who are survivors or who are allowed to survive now work for their new Mongol overlords. And the speed at which the Mongols move helps keep the peace, because any threat of a rebellion is swiftly and brutally put down. And people begin to do the maths on the cost of rebelling and defying the Mongols. It doesn't end well for those who hold out. And the message gets around that it makes sense to submit and fall under this new order. As one awed Chinese chronicler wrote, they come as though the sky were falling, and they disappear like a flash of lightning.
- [46:38]
Peter Frankopan
Quite often, what happens in towns in particular that the Mongols attack, there are questions about whether the level of tax will be higher and whether there'll be freedom of religious worship. And on both of those, the Mongols are progressive, they're fiscally conservative, they quite often reduce taxes, they encourage trade, they are happy to talk about religious equalities. A lot of that has to do with the speed. If you're looking for the next target, the people you've already dealt with, as long as they don't cause you any trouble, you leave them on their own.
- [47:04]
Afua Haysh
So Genghis boyhood dream of conquering the Jin has come true. He's proved himself beyond doubt a military genius, and he's now feared for thousands of miles across China and the east. Going west had never been part of the plan. But Genghis has a taste for conquest now, and he started to eye up the riches of Persia and even further beyond that, George, Georgia, perhaps even Europe. Genghis Khan and his Mongol hordes will soon be on the move again. That's next time on Legacy. Follow Legacy on the Wondery app, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge seasons early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey@wondery.com survey from wondery and goal hanger this is the second episode in our series on Genghis Khan.
- [48:19]
Peter Frankopan
A quick note about our dialogue we can't know everything that was said or done behind closed doors, particularly when we go far back in history, but our scenes are written using the best available sources, so even if a scene or conversation has been recreated for dramatic effect, it is still based on biographical research.
- [48:36]
Afua Haysh
We've used many sources for this series, including Chinggis Khan, the Man who Conquered the world by Frank McLint and Charles Halperin, Russia and the Golden Horde. Legacy is hosted by me, Afwa Hersh.
- [48:49]
Peter Frankopan
And me, Peter Frankenburn.
- [48:50]
Afua Haysh
Scene writing is by Jack McKay for Goal Hanger.
- [48:54]
Peter Frankopan
Our series producers are Jane Morgan and Anoushka Lewis. Robin Scott Elliott is associate producer. Our production managers are Izzy Reed and Alex Hack Roberts. The executive producers are Tony Pastor and Jack Davenport.
- [49:08]
Afua Haysh
This series of Legacy is sound engineered and designed by Will Farmer, who music.
- [49:12]
Peter Frankopan
Supervision is Scott Velasquez for Frit? N Sink.
- [49:16]
Afua Haysh
Our producer for Wondery is Emanuela Quinorte Francis and our managing producer is Rachel Sibley.
- [49:21]
Peter Frankopan
Executive producers for Wondery are Estelle Doyle, Chris Bourne, Morgan Jones and Marshall Louis.