Loading summary
Transcript114 lines
- [00:00]
Afua Hash
Wondery subscribers can binge seasons of legacy early and ad free. Join Wondery in the Wonderry app or on Apple Podcasts hello and welcome to the final episode of our series on jfk. We left you in the last episode with Kennedy having saved the world from possible nuclear war by by staring down the Soviets in the Cuban Missile Crisis, he's now been in the White House for approaching three years. He feels he's really settling into the.
- [00:36]
Peter Frankopan
Job, but there's a lot on his to do list domestically. He wants to push his civil rights bill internationally. There are problems mounting in Vietnam and it's time to be thinking about re election. Four more years in the White House and that means getting out on the road. It's time to be seen out and about in America, starting with a trip to Dallas, Texas.
- [01:01]
Ryan Reynolds
Okay, most Americans think they spend about $62 per month on subscriptions, but get this, the real number is closer to $300. That is literally thousands of dollars a year, half of which you've probably forgotten about. Thankfully, Rocket Money can find a bunch of subscriptions you've forgotten all about and and then help you cancel the ones you don't want anymore. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that finds and cancels your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so that you can grow your savings. Rocket Money has over 5 million users and has saved a total of $500 million in canceled subscriptions, saving members up to $740 a year when using all of the app's features. Stop wasting money on things you don't use. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions by going to rocketmoney.com wondery that's rocketmoney.com wondery rocketmoney.com wondery Audible's best of 2024 picks are here.
- [02:03]
Unknown
Discover the year's top audiobooks, podcasts and originals in all your favorite genres, from memoirs and sci fi to mysteries and thrillers. Audible's curated list in every category is the best way to hear 2024's best in audio entertainment, like a stunning new full cast production, George Orwell's 1984 heartfelt memoirs like Supreme Court Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson's lovely one, the year's best fiction, like the Women by Kristin Hannah and Percival Everett's brilliantly subversive James. Another worthwhile listen is Amy Tinterra's thrilling and twisting whodunit Listen for the Lie. This laugh out loud, funny tale follows Lucy, a woman who needs to clear her own name after a true crime podcast decides to probe into the worst night of her life, one she conveniently can't remember. Audible. There's more to imagine when you listen. Go to audible.com wonderypod and discover all the years best waiting for you.
- [03:10]
Peter Frankopan
From Wandery and Goalhanger. I'm Peter Frankopan.
- [03:13]
Afua Hash
I'm Afuahash.
- [03:15]
Peter Frankopan
And this is Legacy, the show that tells the lives of the most extraordinary men and women ever to have lived and asks if they have the reputation that they deserve.
- [03:35]
Afua Hash
This is JFK. Episode 4 Camelot comes crashing down.
- [03:48]
Peter Frankopan
So we're November 1963 and the Kennedys are preparing to leave the White House for a trip to the South. It's time to turn on that Kennedy smile and charm, particularly in those turbulent and tricky Southern states.
- [04:02]
Afua Hash
Jackie is going with him. They are both grieving. Three months earlier, they lost their baby Patrick, who was born prematurely and died after only two days. The fact that Jackie feels strong enough to join her husband on this tour is unexpected, but cheers everyone.
- [04:18]
Peter Frankopan
The Kennedys leave the White House on 21st November 1963. One onlooker said he looked taller than his six feet standing there on the gray green carpet with the American eagle woven in its center. Although he was still played by his aching back, he was the picture of health with the build of a light heavyweight boxer.
- [04:38]
Afua Hash
It's a quote that feeds into this idea of a president who's grown into his role, who's going to live up to those super high hopes for him and who has so much to live for and so much to give.
- [04:50]
Peter Frankopan
Day one takes him to San Antonio, Houston and Fort Worth. A never ending day of shaking hands, smiling, waving, two and a half hours in a motorcade. They get to the hotel Texas in Fort Worth at 11:35 at night and they'll stay the night in room 850.
- [05:07]
Afua Hash
We're heading into nut country today, but Jackie, if somebody wants to shoot me from a window with a rifle, nobody can stop it, so why worry about it?
- [05:17]
Peter Frankopan
That's quite ominous, isn't it? It is to wake up and say.
- [05:20]
Afua Hash
That that is what he says to his wife in their hotel room early that morning after being shown an ad in the Dallas Morning News accusing him of being pro communist. And I think it's worth saying at this point that they are in the south trying to sprinkle some of that JFK charm. But it's also because his vice president, Lyndon Johnson, is part of this petty childish feud with another leading Democrat in the South, Ralph Yarborough, who's a senator and an important part of the Democratic Texas base, and it's partly to try and heal that rift, which is threatening to split Democrat support in Texas. So there are all kinds of reasons for this trip, but none of them seem worthy of the sacrifice that he's about to have to make.
- [06:05]
Peter Frankopan
It's funny, I mean, we talk a lot about the polarization of the media today, but you know, Mainstream Media in 1963, describing the president of America as being pro communist after the Cuban missile crisis, after the speeches in Berlin. It's the kind of the leap of reality that you can see that people get riled and when we could talk about what happens. The number of people who have grievances against Kennedy is one of the reasons why those conspiracy theories run so deep. But the Kennedys, they fly from Fort Worth. They land at Lovefield Airport in Dallas soon after half past 11, having made the short hop, and they shake hands with excited supporters who've gathered at the airport, and then they climb into the motorcade.
- [06:50]
Afua Hash
Late morning Friday, November 22, 1963 Dallas, Texas Jack climbs into the shiny black Lincoln convertible limousine and squints in the bright sunshine as Jackie takes her seat next to him. He compliments her outfit, a striking baby pink suit with a stylish pillbox hat. He's pleased to have her back at his side at last. Jackie has been grieving away from the public eye. Having her beside him today fills him with pride and a sense that brighter things lie ahead. His health is also looking better. A new routine of calisthenics and daily swims in the heated White House pool are helping with his back. The corset style brace he's wearing under his suits also helps him maintain a strong, upright posture. With the morning rain clearing, the car's protective cover has been removed from his elevated seat. Jack will have a good view of the crowds sat in the seat in front. Texas Governor John Connolly and his wife, Nelly, look a little nervous. Everyone is a bit worried about the reception he'll receive in Dallas. Jack has traveled south to build support for his reelection, but fellow Democrat Adlai Stevenson was booed and spat on by angry right wingers in Dallas last month. Looking out over the excited crowds lining the streets, Jack realizes their concerns are misplaced. This trip is going even better than anyone could have imagined. The streets of downtown Dallas are thronged with people pushing forward to catch a glimpse of their president as flags fly from every building, shouting over the noise of the crowds. Nellie Connolly comments, well, Mr. President, you can't say Dallas doesn't Love you. Jackie beams at him as Jack looks forward to a busy afternoon winning over more and more fans in the.
- [08:40]
Peter Frankopan
The route takes them into Dealey Plaza and past the Texas School book depository. At 12:30pm shots are heard from a sixth floor window.
- [08:51]
Afua Hash
Lee Harvey Oswald fires three shots with a mail order Italian rifle. The second strikes Kennedy in the neck.
- [08:59]
Peter Frankopan
The third is fatal, hitting him in the back of the head. The motorcade races to Parkland Memorial Hospital, Jackie holding Kennedy's head in her lap.
- [09:10]
Afua Hash
Half an hour later, at 1pm doctors inform Jackie her husband is dead. A priest administers the last rites.
- [09:18]
Peter Frankopan
At 1:33pm The White House Assistant Press Secretary Malcolm Kilduff reads a short statement at the hospital.
- [09:28]
Afua Hash
President John F. Kennedy died at approximately 1:00 Central Standard Time today here in Dallas. He died of a gunshot wound to the brain. I have no other details regarding the assassination of the president.
- [09:41]
Peter Frankopan
At 1:38pm Live on CBS, having interrupted a soap opera called as the World Turns, Walter Cronkite takes off his glasses and announces the death of the President.
- [09:54]
Afua Hash
Lee Harvey Oswald is arrested at 1:50pm in a cinema in Dallas.
- [09:59]
Peter Frankopan
At 2:38pm on board air Force One at Lovefield Airport, Lyndon Johnson is sworn in the 36th President Kennedy's body is also aboard the plane.
- [10:11]
Afua Hash
That night, Oswald is charged with the murder of jfk.
- [10:17]
Peter Frankopan
Gosh, the speed of the handover, the change, Johnson being sworn in, that famous photo of him blood spattered, with Jackie Kennedy standing alongside, watching over the space of just over two hours to go from a President alive to the new President being sworn in.
- [10:31]
Afua Hash
And apparently they had asked or urged Jackie to change her outfit. She had spare clothes on Air Force One, but she refused. And you can just imagine the shock and grief and not wanting to do anything that really seals the fact that her husband who was with her.
- [10:48]
Peter Frankopan
I wonder, and I don't know what our listeners would think, but it has to be the single most famous moment of the 20th century. The only things I can think of, partly because we have video footage of it, I suppose the moon landing, but even that, I think that the assassination of the leader of the United States in a motorcade, it's incredible.
- [11:05]
Afua Hash
The only thing I can think of that compares in terms of a single moment captured on TV is 9 11, that image of the plane. And you know that nothing would quite be the same after that. And it changed so many people's lives. But for Kennedy's assassination, I think there's this sense that obviously it was a tragedy for him. And for his family. But this sense that it was the death of a dream for America, that the hope that he represented, this possibility of a better future, was also killed in that instant. And that's something that his biographers have said, as well as ordinary people who witnessed that moment.
- [11:40]
Peter Frankopan
Absolutely stunning. And of course, the shock in the Cold War context is that a bit like with 9, 11, it's what is gonna happen next. LBJ Lyndon Johnson instructs that the announcement of Kennedy's death is not to be made public until he safely on board Air Force One. Because one of the immediate concerns is, is this an attack on the government of some kind? But you know, once the news is out, and not surprisingly, I suppose, the death of Princess Diana, something similar, the shock, the grief, the expressions of trying to get more information to find out how could this possibly have happened. Schools closing early, people gathering around TVs or clustering around cars to hear the radio.
- [12:17]
Afua Hash
And not just in America. In the uk, the BBC and ITV suspended programming. Brazil declares three days of mourning. Ireland has a day of national mourning. Even Cuba. Castro declares that the country is mourning for Kennedy and Khrushchev.
- [12:31]
Peter Frankopan
Khrushchev writes a letter of condolence to Johnson saying, I want to say frankly that the gravity of this loss is felt by the whole world, including ourselves, the Soviet people. But there are some people who celebrate what's happened.
- [12:43]
Afua Hash
Well, this really puts in context what he and what black people are dealing with in the American south, because your mortal Cold War enemy has the grace to say how tragic a loss this death is. Meanwhile, segregationists in the south like Richard Ely, president of the Memphis Citizens Council, said he died a tyrant's death. And a fourth grade class in a wealthy suburb of Dallas is said to have burst into spontaneous applause when they heard the news.
- [13:13]
Peter Frankopan
Same in a school in Mississippi. But the scale of what happens reaches into things like hyperbole. So Isaiah Berlin, the great British philosopher, doesn't just stick to the 20th century for moments of time. He thinks about what this means in history and the parallel he draws, he says. I do not wish to exaggerate, says Berlin. Perhaps it is not at all similar to what men may have felt when Alexander the Great died. But the suddenness and the sense of something of exceptional hope for a large number of people suddenly cut off in midair is, I think, unique in our lifetime. I mean, Alexander the Great's rivals and the people he had butchered might have not been seen the same way. But I think jfk, because he was young, because he was glamorous because of the Cuba crisis, because of Berlin, because belatedly getting involved in civil rights. Perhaps there was that sense that he was offering some form of improvement and hope. And I suspect any president, if this happened to in the TV age, the shock would have been there too.
- [14:11]
Afua Hash
And I think there's something deeper about it as well, that he represented a new generation taking on the status quo of the system in America. Much as he was part of the establishment and much as he was complicit in many things that the American state was doing, he also tried to take a stance against that. The way he took on steel, the way he tried to take on the military industrial complex, the way he tried to stop nuclear Armageddon, the way he belatedly, as you said, did try to support civil rights. He represented the idea that a younger generation could step into this post war modern world and do things differently. And his death represented the limits to the possibility of that.
- [14:54]
Peter Frankopan
We had a moment just a few months ago when there was an assassination attempt on President Trump. And that for all of us, I think all around the world, has the kind of where are you now? Moment and the hearts in the mouths before it turned out he was alive. Because what could have escalated had the attempted assassin succeeded, could have been absolutely catastrophic. So I think that those bits where you suddenly realize that there's a single person who epitomizes a whole country's future, its prospects, and what can come as a result, what could flow from it? The brittleness, the vulnerabilities of single leaders and figures.
- [15:30]
Afua Hash
I have a question. Obviously we're thinking about his legacy throughout this episode in the series, but do you think if he hadn't have been assassinated at this point, he would have been thought of in the ways that he's being described here, as Iberlin, comparing him to Alexander the Great or this idea that was the death of a dream. Do you think that during his lifetime, until that moment, Americans were conscious, Obviously he had huge approval ratings, but were they seeing him as a figure for the ages in a way that he's now being described as soon as he's assassinated?
- [15:59]
Peter Frankopan
I don't think so. I think that life cut short. We've done a few figures like that. And there, the unfulfilled potential, the unanswered questions and unasked questions, I think are what makes the fascination so much more intense. What do you think?
- [16:12]
Afua Hash
It's hard to tell because I think I was skeptical, because I felt that he was not having known as much about him. You always suspicious when there's so much hype around someone that it must be more narrative than substance. But then really looking at how popular he was, the approval ratings, the ways in which people looked up to him, people felt that he had saved them from nuclear holocaust. It made me realize that he was loved in his lifetime. And despite all the personal problems of his health and his marriage and his adultery, people thought they were this golden perfect couple. And there's nothing people love more than to project that onto people in a position of power, that they are the dream. So I think I appreciate more what he meant at the time, but I definitely agree that the fact that his life was cut short in a way that everybody witnessed in real time on television, which led to the floodgates of conspiracy theorizing, which we'll come to in so many ways. It was the beginning of a new era of modernity and not all a positive one.
- [17:14]
Peter Frankopan
I think that everybody wanted to own some of the Kennedy legacy as a result of the tragedy and so on. So, for example, soon after his death, two thirds of Americans claimed to have voted for him in the election of 1960, when in fact only 50% voted for him. So hindsight can be a powerful tool and I think in this case the Kennedy story, the magnification of Cuba as being the seminal point in the Cold War, it has so many more echoes for today's world when we're on edges of different precipices and the importance of good judgment. But in the later 60s and the 70s, Kennedy was famous for having had affairs with lots of women, particularly people like Marilyn Monroe, but hadn't really delivered an agenda that had anything on it. Lyndon Johnson, much more important in lots of ways. But the seeds that Kennedy planted, I think those have grown in a way that allows people to be more benign when they look back at him.
- [18:10]
Ryan Reynolds
Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile.
- [18:11]
Afua Hash
With the price of just about everything going up during inflation, we thought we'd bring our prices down. So to help us, we brought in a reversal.
- [18:18]
Ryan Reynolds
Reverse auctioneer, which is apparently a thing.
- [18:21]
Afua Hash
Mint Mobile Unlimited Premium Wireless.
- [18:23]
Peter Frankopan
How many get 30. 30 bid to get 30. Better 20. 20, 20. But to get 20, 20, 15. 15, 15. Just 15 bucks a month.
- [18:29]
Afua Hash
So give it a try@mintmobile.com Switch $45 upfront payment equivalent to $15 per month. New customers on first three month plan only taxes and fees.
- [18:38]
Willie Walker
Extra speeds lower above 40 gigabytes. You detailed. If you're looking to learn more about commercial real estate, entrepreneurship, leadership in the economy, where would well, a good Start might be the CEO of one of the largest commercial real estate finance and advisory services firms in the nation. But how are you ever going to get on their calendar? You don't have to tune into the Walker Webcast, hosted by Willie Walker, CEO of Walker and Dunlap, an unparalleled leader in commercial real estate. Listen in on conversations with guests like a Rod economist Peter Linneman, and Walker and Dunlap experts. Learn more@wALKERdunlap.com podcast and be sure to follow Walker and Dunlap on all your favorite social media channels. That's walkerdunlap.com podcast. The Walker Webcast Insights for Life.
- [19:34]
Afua Hash
Let'S talk about Lee Harvey Oswald PETER well.
- [19:37]
Peter Frankopan
I suspect there are lots of people on this lovely planet we live on who know a lot more about Lee Harvey Oswald than I do. I know that he had been a Marine and had defected the Soviet Union in 1959 when his Soviet handlers had been slightly bemused by a man who was obviously suffering from mental health issues. What it was that he wanted to achieve, or what his expectations were? He got disillusioned in the Soviet Union quite quickly, too. He was a loner, strange oddball, but he returned to the United States in 1962 and got a job at the Book Depository from where, by all mainstream accounts, those fatal shots were fired.
- [20:15]
Afua Hash
It does feel a little neat. So he's identified within just a couple of hours as a suspect. He has allegedly killed a policeman on the same day. He's then arrested in the cinema, as we heard, and then two days after that he's being transferred from a jail cell to an interrogation office when he is shot by a local man called Jack Ruby.
- [20:42]
Peter Frankopan
He's been shot.
- [20:43]
Ryan Reynolds
He's been shot.
- [20:45]
Peter Frankopan
Hey, Oswald has been shot.
- [20:51]
Afua Hash
What you've just heard is audio of Lee Harvey Oswald being transferred and then being shot, and he's rushed to the same hospital that Kennedy had died at, Parkland Memorial Hospital, and he is dead by 1pm it's quite rare that such a high profile murder is wrapped up so tidily with an arrest and then a death and a couple of days.
- [21:17]
Peter Frankopan
Not exactly an upstanding citizen who wants to defend the honor of the American President and his family. He's a nightclub owner with pretty strong links to the underworld. He's quite an unstable character too, and he claims that he's motivated by grief and outrage. But two days after Kennedy's killed, his assassin is dead as well, and that starts to be the trigger for what becomes called the Warren Commission, which is set up by Lyndon Johnson a week after JFK is killed to investigate the assassination and find out what happens. And that's the source of huge amounts of speculation.
- [21:54]
Afua Hash
And the conclusion of the Warren Commission on Oswald is essentially that he was, as you said, Peter, a loner. He was perpetually discontented with the world around him. He had a hatred for American society. He acted in protest against it. He sought a place for himself in history. He wanted to be recognized as having been in advance of his times. His commitment to Marxism and communism, the Warren Inquiry concluded, appears to have been another important factor in his motivation. Case closed.
- [22:27]
Peter Frankopan
Nice and convenient. Two and a half years later, almost two thirds of all Americans believe that there was a conspiracy surrounding Kennedy's assassination.
- [22:36]
Afua Hash
Including, by the way, Bobby Kennedy.
- [22:38]
Peter Frankopan
Including Bobby Kennedy. He thinks it's very unlikely the single gunman could have done it. The ability to hit a moving target as Oswald did, without obvious high marksmanship skills. The disaffected voices in the CIA because the pair of pigs, perhaps in the military who felt that Kennedy had been weak and then had shamed them, the mob, those connections to Castro, anti Castro, the Soviets and so on. There have been so many ideas around what happened. And then in 1991, Oliver Stone's movie JFK put it right back into the spotlight and has produced a whole new generation trying to look through the swirls of smoke. And we've spoken about this before when we did Marilyn Monroe afware that sometimes when there's smoke, there actually is fire. And when we're talking about extrajudicial killings or government overthrows in other parts of the world, probably one should be open minded. But there's no smoking gun in this particular case.
- [23:30]
Afua Hash
So the two things I think are important context that you just touched on. One, we know the pattern of behavior of the CIA in assassinating people in other countries pretty flagrantly in violation of international law, totally extrajudicially without any congressional oversight. We know, and we did a season on J. Edgar Hoover, that within America, the FBI was targeting some quite high profile people in outrageous ways. Involving themselves in their lives, committing violence and persecuting people. So putting those two things together, it's not beyond the realm of possibility that an agency of the American state was capable of that kind of behavior. A few things that stand out for me and it's funny, I approached this as like, okay, let's have a look at the conspiracy theories. I actually think it's not even fair to call them conspiracy theories or even outside the mainstream. There are Books that have been written, that have quite significant acclaim from mainstream historians, that really pour over the Warren Commission and also later declassified documents, because in the course of the 20th and early 21st century, there have been these rounds of documents being declassified that do reveal more and more about what happened that day. In fact, I note that Trump, during his current, as I speak, presidential campaign in 2024, now that RFK Jr. Who is Bobby Kennedy's son, is backing Trump's campaign, one of the deals that those two struck was Trump promised to declassify more documents relating to JFK's assassination if he wins. So that's still seen as having enough political currency to be a viable part of an election campaign, which I found.
- [25:12]
Peter Frankopan
Fascinating and feeds into the idea that the state hides things from its own citizens. It's not just about the Kennedy assassination. It's that why do governments classify things? And if there are still files that are closed, there must be a reason. And if they're close about the Kennedy assassination, there must be government involvement. Somehow the government knows things it doesn't want people to know.
- [25:30]
Afua Hash
Can I just give three areas where I think there is a legitimate interest in another version of the story than the one concluded by the Warren Commission. The first is JFK's injuries. There is like a whole body of evidence and thought about the idea that he actually had the wound in the front of his head was not an exit wound, which meant he was shot from the front, and that that evidence from doctors was suppressed at various stages in the inquiry. The second is about Harvey Oswald himself. There are some really weird things about his story. He went to the Soviet Union at the height of the Cold War, was given a kind of free reign by the Soviets, and then when he decided he wanted to come back, was sponsored by the American government to come back. From my knowledge of relations between the US and the USSR during the Cold War, it wasn't that easy to just renounce your American citizenship, go to the Soviet Union and then just come back again and be welcomed back with open arms. That's a really strange.
- [26:24]
Peter Frankopan
And you think our friend J. Edgar Hoover would keep an eye on him?
- [26:27]
Afua Hash
You'd think. And then I would say the third area is just all these witnesses, all this testimony that was generally ignored or classified or not made part of the official inquiry. So those are the areas that academics, sleuths, conspiracy theorists, private detectives. There is a motley crew of people who've made this their life's work. But I think it would be unwise to dismiss it all as loony conspiracizing. And I think that was one of the things that Oliver Stone's 1990. It legitimized the idea that there is more to the story, that people haven't been told the full truth, and that somewhere out there, evidence that could paint a different picture as to what happened could come to light. And I think it is important that people like Bobby Kennedy were among those who were suspicious of the official narrative. It's not just people who. Sitting in a dark room with nothing else to do, people close to him, people who understand how agencies work in America and how the reality of the Secret Services and the military at the time had serious doubts about whether this was really a lone gunman acting on his own personal grievance.
- [27:38]
Peter Frankopan
So Kennedy is taken back to Washington, where he lies in state at the Capitol for 18 hours, and an estimated quarter of a million people file past his coffin to pay their respects. Then, on the 25th of November, just three days after he'd been killed, there's Kennedy's funeral in St Matthew's Cathedral. And he was buried at Arlington National Cemetery in Virginia, with his son Jack saluting as his father's body is driven past. And that happened to be on his third birthday.
- [28:06]
Afua Hash
A few days after the funeral, Jackie, who's now 34 with her children aged six and three, gives an interview to a journalist from Life magazine. And this is where the idea of Camelot takes hold. At night, before we'd go to sleep, Jack liked to play some records. She said the song he loved most came at the very end of this record. The lines he loved to hear were, don't let it be forgot that once there was a spot for one brief shining moment that was known as Camelot.
- [28:35]
Peter Frankopan
Well, there you go. That name stuck. And the Arthurian legend of King Arthur and the Round table and his gallant knights and Guinevere. It's a nice image to frame your own position in history. Quite a flattering one. The gilded moment of happiness. But JFK was, of course, in Dallas because his thoughts were beginning to turn to his reelection campaign. He'd only been in the White House for 1,036 days, so I wonder what he might have achieved with another four years in the job. And in particular, one key area, and that is Vietnam.
- [29:17]
Willie Walker
This episode is brought to you by Columbia Sportswear. From snowy trails to city streets, Columbia has you covered. Their Omni Heat Infinity jackets are the gold standard in warmth, pushing the boundaries of innovation.
- [29:29]
Peter Frankopan
Feel the difference as thermal reflective technology wraps you in warmth.
- [29:33]
Willie Walker
Whether you're hiking mountains or conquering your daily grind. Visit Columbia.com to learn more.
- [29:39]
Ryan Reynolds
Okay, most Americans think they spend about $62 per month on subscriptions, but get this, the real number is closer to $300. That is literally thousands of dollars a year, half of which you've probably forgotten about. Thankfully, Rocket Money can find a bunch of subscriptions you've forgotten all about and then help you cancel the ones you don't want anymore. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that finds and cancels your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so that you can grow your savings. Rocket Money has over 5 million users and has saved a total of $500 million in canceled subscriptions, saving members up to $740 a year when using all of the app's features. Stop wasting money on things you don't use. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions by going to rocketmoney.com wondery that's rocketmoney.com won rocketmoney.com wondery.
- [30:47]
Afua Hash
The biggest what if to me, if he'd won reelection, which all indications with those incredible approval ratings suggest he would have, would he have got America out of Vietnam and prevented the Vietnam War? What do you think?
- [31:02]
Peter Frankopan
Peter I'm going to say he would have stayed out. He went on TV in September 1963 and basically said it's their war, it's their problem. I think he would have been put under huge amounts of pressure by the US Military as Lyndon Johnson was. General Westmoreland who told Johnson that hundreds of thousands of troops were required on the ground. I suspect that Kennedy would have said no, but that would have meant sacrificing a piece on the chessboard. And the worry in American foreign policy was always about the so called domino effect, that if one country went, then everything would go. But I think that because Kennedy's war record was what it was and because he'd seen the German moves on Europe of the kind of that steamroller, that Kennedy would have put some lines in the ground and probably stood by them. I mean, what those would have been, I'm not sure, but I think that he wouldn't have been pushed around. Johnson also had to juggle the fact that he needed to put his own stamp on U.S. foreign policy and on American politics. He wasn't a Camelot type man. He wasn't a gilded product of the elite. He didn't have the glamour. And so it was a kind of straitjacket for Lyndon Johnson to inherit Kennedy's legacy and to try to mold something around it and probably some of the calculations, as Robert Carroll's books have shown, were around desperately trying to show he was his own man by being a man of strength and of decision. And Kennedy wouldn't have had those problems to deal with.
- [32:31]
Afua Hash
I think I agree and I think it's interesting thinking about the Vietnam War. The biggest proponents of it, apart from Lyndon Johnson, were names that are quite familiar from the Kennedy story. Curtis LeMay, chief of the Air Force, Alan Dulles, head of the CIA. These were the people that were most bombastic about wanting to invade Cuba, wanting to pull the trigger on the Cuban missile crisis and wanting to go to war in Vietnam and actually had a huge role to play in the hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese and American lives that were lost in Vietnam. And that's who JFK was facing off against when he gave those early indications that he would do everything to avoid a war. And I think because of his track record, they knew he was serious. He had proved repeatedly that he could put his foot down, he could stand up to the military, he could stand up to hawkish generals, and he could stop America escalating conflicts. So lots of the theories about his assassination that don't accept the official narrative see his stance on Vietnam as a potential reason why he was assassinated, to prevent that second term from happening.
- [33:39]
Peter Frankopan
Yeah. And Kennedy, before he'd been elected president, had done some quite extensive travel in Southeast Asia. So it was a region that he was familiar with. And again, and things that he said, both is inauguration but also as president, were about, you know, it's not enough to just talk about freedom and, or the threat of communism. You needed action. You needed to have an engaged, what we now call international development. You need to be building up businesses, you need to be empowering people, you need to be encouraging infrastructure investment and who knows what it is that could have happened. But as Kennedy asked for with Vietnam for his briefings, I need one set of options of how do I get.
- [34:15]
Afua Hash
Out of this is so contradictory because I think he deserves to be remembered as somebody who stood up to that instinct to topple regimes in other countries just because they were inconvenient to America's worldview that said the right things about ending colonialism and supporting freedom and self determination. But there were so many times when he was on the wrong side of those ideals himself. So I guess that's the messiness of a real life politician. But Vietnam is another of those huge existential experiences that America went through in the 20th century. And of course the Vietnamese went through. But the way Americans talk about it the way veterans still are unhoused on the streets of cities like Los Angeles. It's still such a big part of the American psyche. And it is emotional to think that had it not been for the events that happened that day in 1963, that whole fiasco could have been avoided.
- [35:17]
Peter Frankopan
What kind of world did Kennedy leave behind? What was the state of America? In the short time of Kennedy in.
- [35:23]
Afua Hash
The White House, shortly before taking office, Kennedy made a speech in which he said, when at some future date, the high court of history sits in judgment on each of us, our success or failure will be measured by the answers to four questions. First, were we truly men of courage? Secondly, were we truly men of judgment? Third, were we truly men of integrity? Finally, were we truly men of dedication?
- [35:55]
Peter Frankopan
Okay, he set his own quiz, right? His own test. I mean, those aren't bad questions, but they're pretty tough ones to then think about how each of us might answer that one. But. Right, let me do the first one on you. Was Kennedy a brave man? Was he a man of courage?
- [36:09]
Afua Hash
I think he was a man of courage as long as we define it by his own parameters. So I think when it comes to the things he believed in and felt strongly about, he showed his courage. His war record shows that he was really willing to put his life and limb at risk and to save his brothers in arms as well as himself. So there's personal courage and the way he handled the Cuban Missile crisis, refusing to give in to the hawkish generals and their trigger happy ideas about nuclear weapons. I think we can all be grateful for his courage in knowing who he was and what he stood for when it came to things he didn't have such a personal connection with. It's like his courage didn't expand to understand the struggles of others and take the risks necessary to protect them. And that's where I feel there's a flaw in his courage as a track record, was he a man of judgment?
- [37:08]
Peter Frankopan
I think probably not in his private life. I think Cuba tells you something which shows lack of judgment followed by good judgment. The Bay of Pigs fiasco showed that he was impulsive rather than thinking things through. Something that Harold Macmillan, the British Prime Minister, said about Kennedy, he said he admired that Kennedy thought quickly and was able to get ahead of understanding problems, but he never planned long in advance. So he was great. In the Cuban Missile crisis, he got lucky as well that the other side blinked. It wasn't just because Kennedy played his cards right, but, you know, he stood up to Curtis LeMay and the military who are trying to push him into something that was absolutely catastrophic. So I think judgment, he'll pass that test of how judges him. What about integrity?
- [37:56]
Afua Hash
I for him, my gut reaction is that he was someone who had integrity. Especially comparing him to leaders of our current age. I think if we look at whether US leaders or British leaders of recent years, he had integrity in spades by comparison. By that, I mean, I think that he believed that he was standing for the things that aligned with his values. I think he was motivated by public service. I don't think he became president out of vanity or a desire for power or wealth. He had those things already. I do think the influence of his father and his kind of messy psychology from a slightly dysfunctional childhood was part of it. But I think that he stood up for the things that he believed in. Again, a little bit like my verdict on his courage. I think it's a shame that his compass of what counted was limited to his own experience. And by that I don't just mean on race. He didn't share a sense of solidarity with black people when it counted, but also with women. The fact that he could have these quite exploitative relationships with women, sometimes very young women, where there was a huge power imbalance, interns in the White House, I don't think that's just an asterisk. I think that we should count that as something that speaks to his integrity and definitely fell short. Was he a man of dedication?
- [39:15]
Peter Frankopan
Well, I think there are highlight moments in his saving of his crew on his patrol boat and carrying a man on his back, despite being obviously an enormous amount of pain, shows his bravery. I do have a lot of respect for people who go into public life, whether they get things wrong or not. I think that the difficulty of bringing all the different constituencies with you and trying to navigate lots of people's expectations, passions and so on. I'm probably at the moment anyway in my life reasonably forgiving of trying to understand that it's not just a question of doing the right thing. It's are you able to get people to do the right thing with you? That supreme test of a politician to be able to convince people who have different opinions and when we'd be talking through the civil rights thing. I think probably like you, afwa, having read a lot before these podcasts, I've become not, maybe not more sympathetic to Kennedy, but it felt like there was an evolution in his process of understanding that maybe the place he came from didn't make him sympathetic or empathetic, but he did click into place that there were things that needed to be fixed and started going in the right direction. And I think you can mark that either way. I'd probably, on balance, say that's better than not moving at all. But a more enlightened, more dedicated, perhaps more interested person might have never been in that place to start with, but I'd give him a tick. So I think it's a reasonable homework card. I think probably he'd be quite pleased. I think anyone would be quite pleased to get that well marked. And funny enough, if you'd asked me before the test, I'd have thought we'd have had him on at about a 6.5. Feels like he's more 7.5. Nudging. 8.
- [40:46]
Afua Hash
Interesting. I think it speaks to the whole question of his legacy, that in a way, there's a rational component where you actually look through the things he did and the mistakes he made. And then there's the emotional component where you think about the idea of him and what he stood for and how he captured people's hearts and imaginations. And that's why I think my instinct is to answer all those questions in the affirmative, that he had courage and judgment and integrity and dedication. You want to love him. When you look more closely, he was flawed. I was speaking when, you know, as part of, obviously, the extensive preparation for this series with a friend of mine who's a black American, grew up in the South. I was asking her what her education about JFK was like and how she sees him. And it was the shortest conversation. I thought we were gonna have, like, a long, interesting discussion. She was like, he's a hero. He's a complete hero. He's the closest we have to royalty. He's an icon. He is the embodiment of everything great about being American. And I. I was quite surprised by that, especially as a black person who grew up in the south, that he is remembered and taught as this titanic figure representing the triumph of good over evil. And I think generations of Americans are still being raised with that idea of him. And I'm not saying that's wrong. I think history in schools is a whole separate conversation. It tends to oversimplify. But it was fascinating to me. That's still the emotional role he's playing. It's actually an identity role. He's part of the identity of Americans, how they see themselves and the positive that forms the content of their idea of what it is to be American.
- [42:23]
Peter Frankopan
I wonder what you think, Afwa, about Kennedy as the kind of 20th century politician in the age of TV and burgeoning mass media, understanding his public image, photos of him in the White House with his children being so telegenic and photogenic, how much does that set the scene for the ways in which American presidents have engaged with the general public, do you think?
- [42:43]
Afua Hash
Imagine what his Instagram account would have been like. Him and Jackie in her Chanel pillbox hats and the kids in the pool and the weekends at Cape Cod, they were so photogenic. They had the influencer life on lockdown. And he really does seem to have been ahead of his time in understanding the power of the casual, relatable father, husband, even though he really was none of those things. He's not relatable. He's one of the richest men in America. He's not a good husband. He's a serial philanderer. He. He was devoted to his children. And I think the ways in which he understood how to communicate directly through television, through speeches does strike us now as so incredibly modern and so forward thinking. I also think a whole conversation about the curse of the Kennedys is one of the reasons that he has continued to capture the imagination. And it's a bit of a dark reason, but people are obsessed, obsessed and fascinated with this family, partly because of their wealth and glamour and power and because of him, but also because this glittering destiny is so riddled with tragedy. And not just his generation, but successive generations, his son and his wife. There are quite a disproportionate number of members of that family who have died untimely deaths. And it sparked this sense that this family that seems to be perfect has this curse.
- [44:11]
Peter Frankopan
Well, that gives us also a Camelot, that sort of sense of epic that's constantly light struggling against darkness. And in today's generation, we've got Bobby Kennedy's son, Robert F. Kennedy, who was going to run as an independent in the upcoming presidential election, who now has given his support to Donald Trump. You mentioned partly, it seems, in return for declassifying files if Trump wins. But does that tarnish the Kennedy legacy? Or is it, in fact, it's just another Kennedy back in the public eye with his good looks and chiseled ABS and slightly old stories about leaving bears and bicycles in Central Park. And you should Google it if you don't know he's super weird, what that means. Or the dead parasite in the dead worm in his brain.
- [44:51]
Afua Hash
The worm in the brain. I think the fact that he was even considered to be a viable candidate speaks to the power of the Kennedy name, because I can't think of any other circumstances under which somebody like him, with all that weirdness would even get close to being a presidential candidate contender, but it propels you immediately to the top.
- [45:14]
Peter Frankopan
So your favorite part of the end of a series is the three words to sum up who we've been talking about. Have you got your three words for John Fitzgerald Kennedy?
- [45:24]
Afua Hash
Yes, I do.
- [45:25]
Peter Frankopan
Go on.
- [45:26]
Afua Hash
Prevented nuclear Armageddon.
- [45:28]
Peter Frankopan
That's nice.
- [45:30]
Afua Hash
I think he deserves that. That's his legacy. Okay, what's yours?
- [45:33]
Peter Frankopan
I. I thought about tragic and charismatic and they're all a bit fluffy, so I thought charming, lucky, unlucky.
- [45:42]
Afua Hash
Sorry, it's not funny, but it nails.
- [45:44]
Peter Frankopan
It in the kind of after dinner game. Who am I describing? It's quite a short list.
- [45:50]
Afua Hash
And in that order, obviously.
- [45:52]
Peter Frankopan
I think so.
- [45:53]
Afua Hash
Yeah.
- [45:53]
Peter Frankopan
Okay, so thank you everybody for listening. Next week we're going to be doing a brand new series of Legacy where we're going to be looking at the life of Winston Churchill. He was one of JFK's heroes and of course is perhaps the most famous and most popular British leader in history.
- [46:09]
Afua Hash
But his legacy has been called into question in recent years by younger generations questioning his colonial legacy. What kind of younger generations are doing that madness? I can't imagine who would question such a thing.
- [46:23]
Peter Frankopan
I'm not going to say what kind of colonial legacy because I don't want to have an even fuller inbox than I already have.
- [46:50]
Afua Hash
Follow Legacy on the Wondery app, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge seasons early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey@wondry.com survey from Wondering Goalhanger. This is the fourth episode in our series about JFK.
- [47:17]
Peter Frankopan
A quick note about our dialogue we can't know everything that was said or done behind closed doors, particularly when we go far back in history. But our scenes are written using the best available sources. So even if a scene or conversation has been recreated for dramatic effect, it's still based on biographical research.
- [47:35]
Afua Hash
We've used many sources for this series, including the Martin Luther King Jr. Research and education Institute and the John F. Kennedy Presidential Library and Museum Archive. Audio is courtesy of Getty Images. Legacy is hosted by me, Afwahash and me, Peter Frankopen. Seen writing by Kirsty Smith for Goalhanger.
- [47:53]
Peter Frankopan
Our series producers are Kate Taylor and Anushka Lewis. Robin Scott Elliott is associate producer. Our production managers are Izzy Reid and Alex Hack Roberts. The executive producers are Tony Pasta and Jack Davenport.
- [48:05]
Afua Hash
Legacy is sound engineered by Phil Brown.
- [48:08]
Peter Frankopan
Our sound designer is Joe Richardson. Music supervision is Scott Velasquez for Fritz and Sync.
- [48:13]
Afua Hash
Our producer for Wondery is Emanuela Quinotti Francis and our managing producer is Rachel Sibley.
- [48:18]
Peter Frankopan
Executive producers for Wondery are Estelle Doyle, Chris Bourne, Morgan Jones and Marshall Louie.