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- [00:00]
Afwahersh
Wondery subscribers can binge seasons of Legacy early and ad free. Join Wondery in the Wonderry app or on Apple Podcasts.
- [00:09]
Ryan Reynolds
Wondery.
- [00:14]
Afwahersh
Hello and welcome to the third episode of our series on jfk. We left you in the last episode with Kennedy dealing with a tumultuous start to his presidency both at home and abroad. The disaster of the Bay of Pigs, the shambolic attempt to overthrow Castro, and.
- [00:33]
Peter Frankopen
The failure to take a firm lead on civil rights as the Freedom Riders are beaten to within an inch of their lives. But as President, there's no time to dwell on past mistakes. Which suits Kennedy just fine because he's already got a new mission in his sights. His first summit face to face with Nikita Khrushchev. His first chance to show he's up to the job as leader of the free world. From Wandery and Goalhanger, I'm Peter Frankopen, I'm afraid and this is Legacy, the show that tells the lives of the most extraordinary men and women ever to have lived and asks they have the reputation that they deserve.
- [01:31]
Afwahersh
This is JFK Episode 3 Clash of the Cold warriors.
- [01:45]
Ryan Reynolds
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- [02:44]
Audible
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- [03:49]
Peter Frankopen
With Kennedy and the White House, the world looks like a difficult, complicated place. And above all, it's because of the invention, development and proliferation of nuclear missiles and warheads. And one of the questions is going to be around what does a changing world look like with the US on one side, squaring up to the Soviet Union on the other? So while both of them are talking about saying it will never happen, there's an expectation that a nuclear war will one day face us all.
- [04:16]
Afwahersh
It's a really dark cloud that's hanging over humanity, and whether that happens or not is concentrated in the hands and decision making of a small circle of men in Moscow and in Washington.
- [04:31]
Peter Frankopen
Well, you could say that's maybe the same today. I mean, it's interesting. We live in a very complicated world today and the rise of direction of China, conflicts in the Middle east, war in Ukraine, lots of global suffering, fragilities, and then on top of that, climate change, new technologies. But I think the fear in the 1950s and 60s and in fact the world I grew up in, the 70s and even 80s, was one of miscalculations by those small numbers of men sitting around tables in two cities, really, and what the consequences of that would be. And this is best captured, I guess, in films like Dr. Strangelove about if you have the bomb, should you use it and how would you win? I mean, lots of military doctrine at this time is saying if there were two Americans still standing and then one Russian, then the Americans had won.
- [05:15]
Afwahersh
And you mentioned Dr. Strangelove, Peter. He's actually modeled on Curtis LeMay, head of the Air Force. This is a real life person. And he would say things like it's a problem that America has a, quote, phobia over nuclear weapons. But Kennedy has that distrust of the idea of being pro nuclear war. He's also got, I think, incredibly helpfully from his experience fighting in the Second World War, an understanding of the military and how it works and that military commanders and decision makers are fallible and are driven by their own interests and he's also got, as a result of the very recent pain of the Bay of Pigs fiasco, an even deeper skepticism of their stance. So this is all in the mix and I think gives him confidence in his own decision making. The idea that he can't outsource his own thinking about what is right for the planet when it comes to nuclear proliferation.
- [06:08]
Peter Frankopen
I think that's exactly right. But there are games of chess going on absolutely everywhere. And one of the places where that game of chess is going on is in Berlin. At the end of the Second World War, Soviet forces have met with their allied partners, the French, the British and the Americans, and divided up most of Europe, Germany and Austria in particular, into different sectors. The French and the British and the Americans control one sector, not just of Germany, but of Berlin itself and the Soviets in the East.
- [06:35]
Afwahersh
The problem is, for the Soviets, the idea of Germany ever being reunified is a huge red line for them. And they are dealing with, by the day, growing numbers of East Germans heading for the west through Berlin. And that could conceivably lead to the collapse of East Germany, which would then lead to reunification. So the stakes are so high on both sides, which is why Kennedy sets off for Vienna in the summer of 1961. He has high expectations. This is his first chance to make a real difference, not just to America, but to the world.
- [07:09]
Peter Frankopen
June 3, 1961, Vienna. As Kennedy waves to the excited crowds gathered outside the American Embassy, he can hear shouts of give it hell, Jack. And spots a placard announcing lift the Iron Curtain. He smiles, knowing that Khrushchev arrived at the summit to silence. Striding confidently inside the building, Kennedy is ready to reset his presidency. Time to put the disaster in Cuba behind him. Entering the reception room, he steps forward to greet a Soviet leader towering over the squat, bald, 67 year old Khrushchev. Kennedy smiles again as the Russian makes a quip about his youth and inexperience. He's been warned about this, and he's not going to let Khrushchev get under his skin. Today is all about proving himself on the international stage. Taking his seat at the table for formal discussions, he pushes the copious notes from advisors and leans comfortably back in his chair. Kennedy kicks off with an innocuous comment about his country's commitment to peace. Khrushchev's lip curls as he begins a mildly competitive speech detailing America's many unfriendly actions. Catching the worried looks in the eyes of his advisors, Jack smiles to reassure them. He's got this time to turn on the Kennedy charm. He replies how impressed he's been by the Soviet growth rate. Flattery gets him nowhere. Khrushchev seems intent on taking offense. Kennedy shifts in his seat as he's led into a conversation about communism, a topic he was warned to steer clear of. This is not going according to plan. He was hoping to use this meeting with Khrushchev to show off his skills as a leader. Instead, he's being schooled by the older man pulling at the collar of his shirt. He tries to lighten the mood. It doesn't work. He changes tack again to something more serious, discussing the dangers of nuclear war between the Soviets and the United States, a war where millions could die. Kennedy is stunned to see the Russian leader simply shrug his shoulders. And that's when he realizes he's been outplayed. Any hopes he had of using this summit to shine are gone. It's all about damage limitation now. This has been an ambush, and all he can do is sit there and take it. Badly prepared Aphwa overconfident, didn't really understand what he was doing.
- [09:41]
Afwahersh
I think his inexperience is showing here and he's raised expectations to such a high level. Nixon says after this. Never in American history has a man talked so big and achieved so little. And it's not a good moment for him, especially coming after the Bay of Pigs fiasco. I think as well. His health is really plaguing him at this point. He's really suffering. He's not a well man. He's struggling physically. He's miscalculated. He's slightly out of his depth, and the stakes couldn't be higher. It's a really pressurized situation.
- [10:15]
Peter Frankopen
But these kind of set piece negotiations and meetings, they're very predictable. You shouldn't be unsettled. You should be well prepared. Know what's coming towards you. And if you overestimate your own negotiating skills, if you are poorly prepared, or if you allow yourself to get driven into the sidelines, into topics that you want to leave to one side, then you can deliver up gains and wins for the opposite number. It can then cascade into the future meetings too.
- [10:40]
Afwahersh
Exactly. It can be a domino effect. And that's really exactly what happens here. Because Kennedy's failure in Vienna emboldens Khrushchev, who now feels that he maybe overestimated the American president. And Khrushchev is under pressure himself from Moscow not to be seen to be giving in to the Americans. So he settles on Berlin as the perfect place to make a stand and tensions now really begin to escalate.
- [11:05]
Peter Frankopen
Peter so the Soviets push and the United States blink. The Soviets say they're going to increase their defense budget by a third. So Kennedy goes onto the TV and he gives a speech which says we cannot and will not permit the Communists to drive us out of Berlin, either gradually or by force. So he's stealing the Americans to say there is going to be a military confrontation. We must be at all times ready to talk if talk will help, but we must also be ready to resist with force if force is upon us. He finishes it up with a nice catchall. To sum it all up, we seek peace, but we shall not surrender.
- [11:45]
Afwahersh
Once Kennedy starts ratcheting up his rhetoric, it feels that this is an intractable standoff.
- [11:51]
Peter Frankopen
And in the case of Kennedy, the bluff gets called. At midnight on 13 August, 1961, when East German border guards and construction workers start to build up a big fortification that turns into the Berlin Wall, the city is going to be physically divided.
- [12:07]
Afwahersh
And at this point, 60% of Americans believe that there will be a war and even support going to war. And the reality is that if there is a war, a hot war between the US and the Soviet Union, at this stage, nuclear weapons are involved.
- [12:22]
Peter Frankopen
How will the United States respond to this latest Soviet challenge?
- [12:27]
Afwahersh
Washington, D.C. sunday, 20th. It's 4am Kennedy is alone in the Oval Office. He's sitting in his padded rocking chair, which eases the pain in his back. Usually he'd spend the weekend with his family at the Cape, but tonight he's chosen to stay in Washington. A week ago, the residents of East Berlin were woken by heavy machinery. The Soviets have started construction of a wall dividing the city of Berlin. Tonight, Kennedy is sending his response. Having sat up all night, he's demanded updates from Germany every 15 minutes. Khrushchev won't catch him sleeping a second time. A knock on the door. Come in, he tells the military aide. What have you got for me? The convoy are passing through the final checkpoint right now, sir. No problems reported. Next stop, Berlin. Kennedy sighs with relief. This long night is almost over. And then, who knows? Dismissing the aid, Kennedy readjusts his pillow, tries to read his book. But it's no use. He can't concentrate. He's read the same page twice now. Instead, he pulls himself up and paces across the room. Kennedy has dispatched Vice President Johnson and Admiral Clay to deliver a letter of support to German Chancellor Willy Brandt. Now there's a convoy of troops making their way through Soviet occupied territory. He's hoping this sends A clear message to the Russians. But he's learned the hard way not to second guess Khrushchev, which is why he's sat up all night following the convoy as it travels the 110 miles from west Germany to West Berlin, passing through Soviet occupied territory. Kennedy knows that building a wall to divide the people of Berlin is an act of aggression from the Soviets. He's gambling on this, meaning they have no plans to invade the West. A wall is better than a war, he figures. But as he sits and waits 4,000 miles across the Atlantic, he can only hope this gamble pays off.
- [14:32]
Peter Frankopen
It's really tough when these kinds of things are happening to be evaluating how they're going to play out. Is the construction of a wall the prelude to an annexation of all of Berlin? Is the Soviet Union going to start a war inside Europe? Are they about to mobilize and roll through into Western Germany? Is this a decoy where in fact, there's going to be Soviet military activity, perhaps in Turkey, perhaps in East Asia? And having those live updates every 15 minutes that Kennedy's asking for is not just to find out whether his convoy is going to get through. Is it going to get attacked as it drives across East German territory, But how much are the Soviets going to push? And I think one of the funny things about that Berlin Wall is that we tend to think about the Berlin Wall as keeping everybody in East Berlin to stop them from going across to the West. But it's as much to stop the west having a foothold in East Berlin and to keep Berlin as an island surrounded by an East German sea. And you've been to Berlin a few times. Have you been to where the Wall is? You would have been too young to have seen it when it was up and running.
- [15:30]
Afwahersh
No, I saw the Berlin Wall when it was up and running, and I also saw the Iron Curtain. I might have told you this story before, but my parents, in, I think it was 1991, so very soon after the collapse of the Berlin Wall took my younger sister and I. I was 10, she was 6, on holiday to go and see the Berlin Wall and see the Iron Curtain. And I remember my dad just getting out some pliers and cutting a bit off, and it was hung on our kitchen wall. And it did capture my imagination at that young age, just to think what it would have been like to live in a city and see that wall go up. It was, until it came down. Such a symbol of the Cold War, such a physical manifestation of the ideological and geopolitical divisions between the east and West. And it was a real scar, wasn't it? That traumatized everyone affected by it.
- [16:16]
Peter Frankopen
I went to Berlin a few times in the late 80s and crossing over in Checkpoint Charlie, it was like moving from color into black and white. You know, it was moving across political systems. It was lots of cars, lots of people, incredibly vibrant music scene, arts, et cetera, on one side of the city and then the other side, people whispering, not wanting to come up to strangers. And the idea of Berlin as a divided city spoke of a divided world. The crisis passes, but the tensions are always going to be there till the end of the Cold War.
- [16:48]
Afwahersh
And Kennedy gets the credit for calling that right. He was correct in calculating that by building a wall, the Soviets got relief from the exodus of East Germans to the west. And that allowed them in a way to de escalate. And incredibly, while all this is going on, Kennedy's health is as bad as ever. He's having to have extra steroid and pain relief injections for his bad back to get through his TV address. He's on crutches out of the public eye. He's got this special rocking chair and he still has time and energy. Peter, for womanizing, I thought you could.
- [17:23]
Peter Frankopen
Say, for being a father of two young children, that takes a lot of energy and that. So with two small children, Caroline, age 4, and John Jr. Aged nearly 2, Jackie is well aware of his womanizing and is obviously powerless to stop it. But Americans themselves wide at large are very happy with their young president. Here's someone who's prepared to stand and fight for the good of America and Americans and to be ruthless where he needs to be. And you mentioned last episode AFWA about the economy not being in a great state when Kennedy became president. But now he's also been putting pressure on the steel industry to limit price rises for the wider good of the country.
- [18:03]
Afwahersh
Yeah, that doesn't go down very well with the steel industry. Eisenhower had coined the term the military industrial complex to describe the ways in which the steel industry, the military and the government had conspired to create a system that benefited those sectors disproportionately and propel the nation towards wars that weren't necessarily in its own interest.
- [18:30]
Peter Frankopen
Who he's picking a fight with are with the elites who control these businesses, with the bosses. So he tries to reason with them, tries to keep the prices low. And the point is about trying to stop the acceleration of too much executive power, but also to side with the union. So the United Steelworkers Union are angry about the Price hike. They've been in the middle of contract negotiations and that price hike undermines their bargaining position. So in April 1962, they go on strike. But what Kennedy does is he puts pressure on business leaders. Tell us a bit about how he goes about trying to get them to keep their price hikes low.
- [19:03]
Afwahersh
Well, he gets his brother Bobby to order an investigation into collusion, gets the FBI involved. And we already know about Hoover and his modus operandi. So midnight calls, hauling steel executives from their beds, demanding they hand over tax records and generally harassing the steel bosses.
- [19:22]
Peter Frankopen
But I mean, that military industrial complex is alive and well now. And again we're recording a time of unbelievable political and financial and technological power in places like Silicon Valley, where presidents typically don't take on executives. They don't rough house them, they don't try and put pressure on them. Was Kennedy being extra brave was just a different time.
- [19:42]
Afwahersh
It was a different time. If you look at the big tech companies, I mean, they have GDPs bigger than the size of many nations. Their power in terms of funding and influencing politics is, I think it's becoming pretty widely considered, totally unhealthy in any democratic system. The steel executives weren't on the level of the most powerful people in Silicon Valley today. But it was still a difficult battle to pick and an important one to win because he showed the steel industry, and by extension the military industrial complex, that he was serious about his executive role. He also showed workers that he would fight for the blue collar, the middle classes, he would protect consumers from unfair pricing, that he would use federal power to stand for the ordinary American against corporate interests. And he reaps the rewards of that stance. And his approval ratings now rise to 73%, which is unimaginable now.
- [20:37]
Peter Frankopen
Amazing. But then in the wider world, the Cold War still dominates everything. And 1962 is going to bring an even greater test, one that's going to bring the world to the brink, to within a few nautical miles of nuclear war, in fact.
- [20:52]
Afwahersh
JFK doesn't want war. He doesn't believe the Soviets really want war. But does he have what it takes? The true skills a leader needs to keep the situation from spiraling out of control?
- [21:11]
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Afwahersh
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- [22:36]
Peter Frankopen
Well, the Cuban Missile Crisis is probably the single best known event of the Cold War, partly because it's the closest the world has ever come to full Armageddon.
- [22:45]
Afwahersh
I remember asking my dad about this when I first learned about it. I was at university when I really first understood those events. I mean, they were sheltering under their desks at school, people were reviving Second World War era bomb shelters. It was a time of extraordinary fear and it came down to the decisions of two men. We know all about Kennedy and we've been talking about him now for two and a half episodes. But what about Nikita Khrushchev?
- [23:14]
Peter Frankopen
Well, he'd been involved in the revolution and had been one of those people who managed to keep his position under Stalin and in the power struggles to succeed Stalin after his death in 1953, Khrushchev had arisen to the front of a pack of potential successors. And in a very important point not just in the history of the Soviet Union, but also major implications in China, gives a speech denouncing Stalin and his rule, talking about the ways in which the Soviet Union has fallen behind, talking about repression, talking about the ways in which persecution had happened. That is a kind of it's a real shock. And actually it's a real shock in the United States, not just because Khrushchev has said it, but because it begs the question of what is the world going to look like under Khrushchev if it's a new era, what exactly does that mean But Khrushchev, unlike Kennedy, is not a young man. He's 68 at the time of the crisis. And also, although he's managed to rise to the top in Moscow, his position is also under threat in the Soviet Union. There's chronic economic problems. He didn't really get anywhere on the Berlin crisis, apart from locking up one city. There are no real gains to show off. And then there's the kind of the question of how do you keep this Communist dream alive? How does that turn into the Cuban Missile Crisis?
- [24:27]
Afwahersh
Khrushchev decides, and it's an interesting decision, to deploy 40 missiles on Cuba, which is, as we said, 100 miles off the coast of Florida. These missiles have a range of between 1,000 and 2,000 miles. So you can just imagine how deeply into American space they could penetrate. And the story that the Soviets are telling themselves is that this is no different from the US having missiles in Turkey that are well within striking reach of Russia. The Americans have missiles on Russia's doorstep now. They will put missiles on America's doorstep. The thing that Khrushchev does that I find most interesting is that instead of announcing that he's doing this and all of the kind of bluster and showmanship that involves, he decides to hide the missiles, keep it secret, and when he's asked about it, actually deny it.
- [25:20]
Peter Frankopen
Let's walk through exactly what happened, because it's like watching the news in real time. So on the 1st of October, 1962, a report marked potentially significant, one of the great understatements in history, is handed to Defense Secretary Robert McNamara. It says that Soviet missiles have been sighted in Cuba. Immediately, spy flights are ordered over the island, but they're delayed for several days because of cloud cover.
- [25:46]
Afwahersh
So it's not until 16 October, more than two weeks later, that McGeorge Bundy, one of JFK's special advisers on defense, knocks on the President's bedroom door and hands the President a bundle of photos. The President reaches his phone, calls his brother Bobby and says, and less of an understatement, but still a bit of one, we have some big trouble. I want you over here.
- [26:09]
Peter Frankopen
Later that morning, Kennedy gets his key men, including Bobby and his defense secretary, McNamara, as his executive committee. The excomm large photos of the missile sites are propped up around the room. Kennedy orders all the options to be explored. Airstrikes, blockade, even an invasion. Because the missiles have to go, they can't be allowed to stay in America's backyard. But how are they going to get rid of the missiles without escalation.
- [26:36]
Afwahersh
It must have been an extraordinary atmosphere in that room to sit and look at photographic evidence of missiles on America's doorstep at a moment of great tension and escalation in the Cold War. This wasn't really a very cold war. At this moment it felt like a very real serious threat.
- [26:53]
Peter Frankopen
But Kennedy in public sticks to his schedule. So he has lunch with the Crown Prince of Libya the following day, then flies to Connecticut to campaign for elections. All the time wrestling with the decisions that he has to make because he knows his actions could not just permanently alter the course of human affairs. They might change the world's ecology, biology and environment.
- [27:14]
Afwahersh
And not for the better.
- [27:15]
Peter Frankopen
Not for the better, yeah.
- [27:17]
Afwahersh
On Thursday 18th October, XCOM are told there's a week until those Soviet missiles will be operational. So the clock is ticking in the most dramatic way. They are staying up late into the night discussing options. The option that keeps emerging is this idea of a blockade.
- [27:34]
Peter Frankopen
PETER so chair of the Joint Chiefs is Curtis LeMay, the Air Force general and one of the characters modeled in Dr. Strangelove, who tells Kennedy a blockade is a weak tactic. And it begins an extraordinary exchange between the President and the Air Force. These are some of the most famous conversations now in history. So lamay says to the President, you're in a pretty bad fix at the present time.
- [27:56]
Afwahersh
Kennedy says, what did you say?
- [27:58]
Peter Frankopen
You're in a pretty bad fix.
- [28:00]
Afwahersh
You're in there with me.
- [28:01]
Peter Frankopen
I love this. We should take this. On the stage, Kennedy leaves the room and behind him he can hear the Chiefs arguing with each other.
- [28:08]
Afwahersh
Kennedy tells an aide that if he follows the military's advice, none of us.
- [28:12]
Peter Frankopen
Will be alive later to tell them they're wrong.
- [28:15]
Afwahersh
Kennedy does make a decision. On Saturday 20th October, after a 2 hour, 40 minute meeting, the EXCOMM decides Cuba will be quarantined. This is essentially a blockade in all but name. But because the Soviets were so criticized for their blockade of Berlin, the Americans don't want to call what they're doing to Cuba a blockade. So they call it a quarantine. And what it means is that the Americans will oversee who comes in and who goes out of Cuba and its waters, along with a demand that the Soviets remove the missiles from the island, and if they don't, that an airstrike will follow.
- [28:52]
Peter Frankopen
On Monday 22 October, Kennedy sends a letter to Khrushchev spelling out the consequences of a nuclear conflict which could only result, he says, in catastrophic consequences to the whole world, including the AGGRESSOR and that phrase is designed to show the Soviet Union, a Khrushchev, that the United States are contemplating a nuclear strike on the whole of the Soviet Union. And an hour later, Kennedy takes to the airwaves.
- [29:17]
John F. Kennedy
Good evening, my fellow citizens.
- [29:19]
Afwahersh
That evening, for 17 minutes, he tells the 100 million Americans who watch, the largest ever audience for a presidential address, that missiles are being installed in Cuba.
- [29:28]
John F. Kennedy
The purpose of these bases can be none other than to provide a nuclear strike capability against the western hemisphere, that.
- [29:36]
Afwahersh
They could hit Washington or any city in the southeastern U.S. and that the U.S. will not tolerate it.
- [29:42]
John F. Kennedy
Neither the United States of America nor the world community of nations can tolerate deliberate deception and offensive threats on the part of any nation. Our goal is not the victory of might, but the vindication of right, not peace at the expense of freedom, but both peace and freedom. God willing, that goal will be achieved. Thank you and good night.
- [30:13]
Peter Frankopen
The next morning, many of Kennedy's staff have slept in their offices, and one says to another, we've won a considerable victory. How do you work that out? Well, you and I are at least still alive. So this has the sense of the kind of end of the world at Nye. And the response from Moscow that comes back leaves Kennedy fearing the worst. You must cancel the quarantine and the blockade, says the Kremlin. If you don't, there could be a catastrophe.
- [30:39]
Afwahersh
Kennedy sticks to his guns. The quarantine will begin the following morning. As he says this, 27 Soviet ships are steaming towards Cuba, right into that quarantine zone.
- [30:51]
Peter Frankopen
How does it look? Said Bobby as the brothers sat in the Oval Office. Ah, looks like hell, says Kennedy. Looks real mean, doesn't it?
- [31:00]
Afwahersh
The missile sites are now almost operational. The Soviet ships are heading south, right towards that quarantine zone and a potential confrontation. And as the Kennedy brothers head to bed on the night of October 23rd, they fear the worst.
- [31:17]
Peter Frankopen
October 24th, 1962, the White House. Jack Kennedy stares into his brother Bobby's eyes across the busy oval meeting table and hopes this isn't the meeting where he brings the world into a nuclear holocaust. It's been quite the week. Two days ago, he announced to the nation that U.S. spy planes had discovered Soviet missile bases on Cuba, ordering a naval quarantine of the island. He warned that America would not stop short of military action to end this threat to world peace. Now he has to hold his nerve in a terrifying game of diplomatic chess against his old enemy, Khrushchev. The United states is at DEFCON 2. Enemy attack expected. Next step Nuclear war. Kennedy tries to retain a commanding heir. As he asks his Secretary of Defense, McNamara, can you update us? Robert McNamara adjusts his glasses and announces. Khrushchev says that the blockade is an act of aggression and he will not comply. Jack sees worried looks on all faces around the table as McNamara talks through naval plans to intercept Soviet submarines. Down the end of the room, he spots John McCone, director of Central Intelligence, being handed a slip of paper by an aide. He watches McCone's brow furrow as he reads the report. Jack raises a hand to interrupt McNamara. What news do you have, McOne? He asks. McOne explains, Mr. President, I have a note just handed to me. It says we've just received information through the Office of Naval Intelligence that all six Soviet ships currently identified in Cuban waters have either stopped or reversed course. An audible gasp fills the room. Jack runs his hand through his hair and raises his eyes to the roof. Checkmate. Secretary of State Dean Rusk fills the silence. Gentlemen, we're eyeball to eyeball and I think the other fellow just blinked. Crikey. I've got the hairs on the back of my neck standing up. Maybe I should have been an actor. Or maybe that's just. I mean, reading primary sources as a historian is so exciting. But when you're reading people's words and there's nothing being missed out and you get the tension in the room, I mean, what's at stake? And the communications have to work. What happens if information gets handed back wrong, isn't relayed quickly enough? The what ifs are amazing and the.
- [33:46]
Afwahersh
Scene is so palpable. This is Bobby's description of watching his brother in the Oval Office that day. His hand went up to his face and covered his mouth and he closed his fists. His eyes were tense, almost gray. And we just stared at each other across the table. Was the world on the brink of a holocaust? And had we done something wrong? I felt we were on the edge of a precipice and it was as if there was no way off. It's so stressful. And even though the other fellow just blinked, it's not over yet, is it, Peter?
- [34:20]
Peter Frankopen
No. I mean, first, there are still missiles in Cuba. So on the 26th of October, Kennedy decides he'll give it 48 hours and then decide whether an invasion or airstrike should go ahead. The following day, on 27th October, a U2 spy plane is shot down over Cuba and its pilot, Rudolf Anderson, is killed. And so there's still pressure from the military. Now we've Got to go in. They say we've got to push for air attacks. They should begin on Monday. Suddenly we're back on the brink.
- [34:50]
Afwahersh
After an ExComm meeting on 27 October, Bobby delivers a letter to the Soviet ambassador with US demands. And he warns the ambassador in person that if they don't accept, then they will start firing. That's the stick, then comes the carrot. But if you do withdraw the missiles, give it a few months and we'll take hours because America has 15 missiles in Turkey. We'll take hours out of Turkey.
- [35:20]
Peter Frankopen
Every person at the EXCOMM meeting believes that if Khrushchev doesn't accept the terms, there's going to be war in Cuba. And where would that have ended? I mean, it's interesting when you go back through the telling of the Cuban missile crisis. The Soviet Union back down, they agree to withdraw their missiles from Cuba. It always gets read and presented as a kind of triumph of the bravery of Kennedy to stand up to an aggressor. But you could take a slightly different view, which is that from the Soviet point of view, after the escalation happens of missiles going towards Cuba and the withdrawal, the deal is done to take these Jupiter missiles out of Turkey. So there's a reduction in pressure to the Soviet Union as a result. But it gets presented as a sort of triumph of the free world done through the fact that the Americans are saying we will go to nuclear war if need be, which is a sort of first mover attempt to bully your adversary. But I'm not sure they could have done anything different.
- [36:10]
Afwahersh
Not even if need be, Peter. I mean, the military generals really need to be singled out for some harsh words about their legacy.
- [36:17]
Peter Frankopen
Tell us what Curtis LeMay says after this is all over.
- [36:20]
Afwahersh
Curtis LeMay, the Air Force chief is not congratulating Kennedy for averting nuclear holocaust. He's furious because he sees this as backing down.
- [36:30]
Peter Frankopen
Go on.
- [36:30]
Afwahersh
It's the greatest defeat in our history. He tells Kennedy, he urges Kennedy to invade. And the President is literally dumbfounded. And he says the military are mad. And I think he's right. And you know, it's interesting. I was looking into Curtis LeMay. There's still a very prestigious Air Force prize that gets given out in his name every year. He's still remembered is a hero. This is the person who tried to persuade a president who was capable of averting war that he should begin a nuclear conflict. It's actually crazy.
- [37:03]
Peter Frankopen
Do you think that Kennedy's war record, his experience of the military played a role in getting Kennedy to make the right call with the military. Do you think another president would have done things differently?
- [37:11]
Afwahersh
It definitely speaks to Kennedy's integrity and also his real experience, his experience of war, as you said. I think also the fact that he had small children. He often said he couldn't live with the idea of starting an avoidable nuclear conflict knowing it would kill, especially children who'd never voted, who'd never chosen any of these political actions. So I think that he had the humanity to understand in a way that people like Curtis LeMay clearly didn't. But also, when you think about the Cuban missile crisis, it just seems so avoidable. I think that there was, again, this complete misunderstanding of the Soviet perspective. Let's not forget that the Americans had tried so many times in so many different ways to assassinate the Cuban leader. And the Soviets partly put those missiles in Cuba to reassure Castro that they would protect him. And then at the same time, the Soviets had fallen out with the Chinese. At this point, they were worried that Castro might side with China. So there were so many reasons why they wanted the show of solidarity with Cuba, of putting missiles on the island. That didn't relate directly to wanting to start a nuclear war with America.
- [38:17]
Peter Frankopen
I guess I take a slightly different view, which is that the Americans did understand the Soviet Union quite well. I think they did understand that it's dominated by an even bigger military industrial complex than the United States in terms of what the Soviet economy was. They did understand that the Soviet Union was a place that didn't work with chronic human rights abuses, with terrible lack of freedoms. They did understand about the persecution in the 30s that had led to millions of people being either shot or sent into exile. And they understood that there'd been a famine in the 1940s, at the end of the Second World War that had killed more than a million people. So the Soviet Union wasn't a kind of soft player that was trying to get its position defended. It was also expansionist, it was also imperialistic. It also had its own agenda where the Soviets were not prepared to negotiate, weren't willing to blink, and were quite likely, in fact, to push hard into a world which could have led to catastrophe, too. I think what still mattered at this time was that American superiority in terms of its nuclear arsenal was greater and bigger. But to give a sign of how weak the Soviet economy was, about three years after this, the Soviet Union goes through such a bad agricultural breakdown that they need to start importing food from the United States. So what the Soviet Union are trying to do is to put themselves into positions where they can use a threat to keep themselves secure. And regime survival of the Communist Party in Moscow is all that matters.
- [39:39]
Afwahersh
Back in 1960, when Kennedy first got the nomination to run for president, he spoke about looking to a new frontier. But a year later, it's the Soviets who have gone where no man has before. It's they who have put Yuri Gagarin in space.
- [39:54]
Peter Frankopen
This gnaws at Kennedy amid the day to day grind of running the country he knows as a dream. He wants to land an American on the moon, but to do that he has to sell the idea to the American people. And Kennedy is pretty good at pitching.
- [40:13]
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- [41:45]
Afwahersh
So Kennedy has this plan to land a man on the moon and bring him back safely before 1970, a pretty ambitious goal.
- [41:55]
Peter Frankopen
It was estimated that it would cost $22 billion, which is a vast amount in the 1960s and poll suggested that majority of Americans were against it. So having a good script and a good speech writer is really important. And on the 12th of September he makes his pitch.
- [42:11]
John F. Kennedy
But why some say the moon? Why choose this as our goal? And they may well ask why climb the highest mountain? Why 35 years ago fly the Atlantic? Why does Rice play Texas? We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard.
- [42:37]
Afwahersh
I mean, this is big intergalactic legacy stuff, and you need incredible oratory, you need rousing words, you need to tap into people's imagination, because this has never been done before, and many people are skeptical that it could ever be done. So it's rare that you get to have a leader speaking in ways that actually expands the minds of his audience. And I think that's something that Kennedy did and maybe one of the reasons that he's so eulogized.
- [43:06]
Peter Frankopen
On the one hand, we could think of the first the moon landings as being a complete waste of money. But on the other hand, there was huge political kudos to gain from it. And perhaps more importantly, and that doesn't get spoken about enough, the technological advantages that could give to us science, because of course, we think of rockets and the moon, but it's also about ballistics and about missile launch systems. So the capabilities to be able to land missiles a long way from home has obvious implications for the ability of your nuclear arsenal.
- [43:34]
Afwahersh
The moon landing is such a grand dream for Kennedy, and actually he beats his deadline even after his own life has ended, because it's July 1969. So a call five months before the 1970 deadline that Apollo 11 lands on the moon. But I was thinking about emerging economies like India developing their own space program. Actually, many African countries are now developing space programs. And one of the things that often gets said is how can you allocate billions of dollars to a space program when you have such chronic problems of poverty and inequality, gender based violence, all of the challenges that a country like India has. And I apply that to 1960s America, because while Kennedy is dreaming about spending 22 billion, which is a huge sum at the time, America is a country that is in some ways in the dark ages when it comes to how it treats its own population. This progress is in such marked contrast to the reality in the south, where Martin Luther King, civil rights leaders, activists, men and women who are daily living with terror and persecution still feel so little progress is being made about what it means to have a black body in America.
- [44:47]
Peter Frankopen
But Kennedy does intervene in 1963, after Martin Luther King launches a campaign in Birmingham, Alabama to challenge segregation policies. But it descends, as always, from a peaceful march into violence, including children being attacked by police and by firemen with high pressure hoses. And candidly watches this on the TV in the White House and says that it makes him feel sick. He has a complicated relationship, though, with Martin Luther King, right?
- [45:13]
Afwahersh
Well, one Of Martin Luther king's most famous written letters that he wrote from Birmingham jail during this period. He'd been arrested during the march really captures the hypocrisy he feels JFK represents. And he says, I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the negro's great stumbling block in his stride towards freedom is not the ku klux klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to order than to justice, who constantly says, I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action, who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom. That's harsh, but I think fair, because jfk had often made the right kind of noises and said he was sickened by the situation in the south, but it was not a priority, or he felt like he would do it after he'd done various other things, or he needed to shore up the southern vote before he could interfere with democratic support in segregationist areas. And I think King captured so powerfully the frustration of an African American listening to that and feeling that their life as an American is not a priority for a president.
- [46:23]
Peter Frankopen
But for Kennedy, this feels like it's a turning point. This is a time when George Wallace has been elected governor of Alabama on the slogan of segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever. But it does seem that Kennedy finally clicks and decides that a significant civil rights bill should be placed before congress. I mean, he does seem to suddenly realize that there's never going to be reform unless it's done from the top.
- [46:46]
Unknown
Now an address by the president of the United States, speaking live from Washington. Good evening, my fellow citizens. We are confronted primarily with a moral issue. It is as old as the scriptures and is as clear as the American constitution. The heart of the question is whether all Americans are to be afforded equal rights and equal opportunities.
- [47:11]
Peter Frankopen
Kennedy speechwriter Ted Sorensen is brought in to write this speech, which he finishes five minutes before broadcast. And in fact, you can see when Kennedy reads it, he stumbles a bit and keeps on having to look down at the text. Kennedy reminds Americans listening that it's been 100 years since President Lincoln freed the slaves. Yet their heirs, their grandsons, are not fully free. They're not yet freed from the bonds of injustice. They're not yet freed from social and economic oppression. And this nation, for all its hopes and all its boasts, will not be fully free until all of its citizens are free.
- [47:44]
Unknown
Now the time has come for this nation to fulfill its promise. A great change is at hand. Next week, I shall ask the Congress to make a commitment, it is not fully made in this century to the proposition that race has no place in American life or law.
- [48:04]
Peter Frankopen
What is it that prompts this change? Is it a politician seeing which way the wind is blowing? Is it that he feels threatened by people like Wallace who enjoy much more popularity in the south than he does?
- [48:16]
Afwahersh
I think it's partly all of those things, honestly. I also think it's partly the Cold War context. America is going around the world promoting the so called values of Western democracy, of freedom. They are rescuing people from communism, from the kind of oppression that you described in the Soviet world in the 20th century. It's very difficult to hold yourself up as the leader of the free world when so many of your own people are unfree. And I think the more that JFK stepped into this identity of himself as the leader of the free world, the harder it is to reconcile that status with the reality of what he is presiding over in his own country.
- [48:57]
Peter Frankopen
Kennedy's proposed new law guarantees that any citizen with sixth grade education would get the right to vote. It would eliminate discrimination in all public places, hotels, restaurants and shops, grant greater powers for the Attorney general to enforce court ordered school desegregation, and so on. But Southern Democrats don't support and the bill gets bogged down in Congress. Which is one reason why there's a march on Washington in August 1963 where more than 200,000 demonstrators march on the Capitol for jobs and for freedom.
- [49:26]
Afwahersh
And despite Kennedy's complicated relationship with King, they're far from straightforward allies. He does welcome King and the other leaders of the struggle to the White House. He publicly shows his support for the movement. And he greets King by quoting King's own speech, I have a dream, which he had watched in the White House and recognized from one great orator to another. The power of that moment and of.
- [49:50]
Peter Frankopen
Those words, well, who knows whether Kennedy would have got it over the line. It does get passed eventually, in July 1964 by a different president. Domestically, Kennedy has troubles, but he's even more troubled by the continuing ongoing threat of nuclear war. So I guess it's fitting that one of his last great speeches takes place in the most likely setting for the spark that might ignite a nuclear war, Berlin.
- [50:14]
Afwahersh
So June 1963. Kennedy tours Europe, reassuring his allies who are spooked by the Cuban missile crisis and everything else that's gone on. And the status of West Berlin, which is now this isolated outpost of Western democracy within the Soviet bloc, remains crucial. And Berliners show up to see jfk. They chant his name. They're clapping, waving, crying. And in front of a vast crowd of more than 120,000, Kennedy makes a bid to capture their hearts with those four famous words that I suspect if you know nothing about this history, you have heard today in the world of.
- [50:55]
Unknown
Freedom, the proudest post is.
- [51:04]
Peter Frankopen
So Kennedy's elated. After the speech, he says, we'll never have another day like this as long as we live. And in fact, that combined with what else has been happening post Cuban missile crisis. There are negotiations behind the scenes that lead to a nuclear test ban treaty being signed in 1963. And as Kennedy tells the nation, it's a shaft of light cut into the darkness. And that's quite a good sort of epitaph of what Kennedy's presidency wants to look like.
- [51:31]
Afwahersh
It's all about there's a lot of darkness. And a new chapter of darkness is causing growing alarm in the White House as we head into the autumn of 1963. Another conflict that everyone has heard about. But exactly how much people know about what it involved is another question. Of course, I'm talking about Vietnam. Kennedy had inherited from Eisenhower a policy of trying to prevent a North Vietnam takeover of the south, worried about Communist North Vietnam spreading Soviet influence into a crucial part of Southeast Asia. This is another of those Cold War conflicts that America saw as a proxy for its battles against the spread of the expansionist Soviet Union.
- [52:17]
Peter Frankopen
And the south is led by Ngongo Diem at the time, who's supposedly a Democrat, supposedly in favor of reforms and says all the right kinds of things, but actually is sitting on top of a state that is highly persecutory of not just minorities but majorities. There's huge amounts of corruption in the system. The proclamation that it's a stable democratic world is far from the reality. But the Americans are either taken in or they can't see through it. Like you say, alf, where the sort of the prism of wanting to see things through the lens of good and bad means that support goes into a poor regime. And in fact, Kennedy is told that things look stable. So in 1962, he orders Robert McNamara to plan a US withdrawal.
- [52:59]
Afwahersh
The Buddhist majority protest against Diem's government. Partly, there's religious conflict. Diem's Catholic, but also because he is a brutal oppressor of Buddhists, as you mentioned, Peter, he's extremely corrupt and autocratic. And some of the protests from Buddhists of that era have become so iconic. And there's that famous image of a Buddhist monk setting himself on fire it's such a visceral symbol of the level of desperation that so many Vietnamese felt against their own regime. And the sad truth is that America propped up that regime when it suited their interests, once it became more of a liability than an asset. The CIA decides to back a coup.
- [53:43]
Peter Frankopen
And that coup goes in the ways that things often do. Jim is ousted and murdered. Kennedy had been told that, or led to believe anyway, that Jim would end in exile. And then in November 1963, Kennedy orders his military advisers to draw up a full list of options, including, poignantly, how to get out of there. And I think that's a kind of question. There's an entanglement. What is the right thing that the US could or shouldn't do? And we're going to come back to that, because at the moment, Kennedy is thinking about his second term and what he's going to achieve. Thoughts are turning to the following year's election campaign, and the mood is buoyant. There are lots of problems here and there, but the President's ratings remain high and he says he's enjoying the job and he feels he's got a grip on it.
- [54:28]
Afwahersh
On the morning of the 21st of November, he's consulting with his military advisors on those options for potentially getting out of Vietnam. And then he and Jackie head for Andrews Air Force Base.
- [54:39]
Peter Frankopen
He's got some domestic issues to deal with. First, a trip to Texas. Kennedy wants to cement some political allegiances ahead of the campaign and to get out and be seen by America. So the following morning, 22 November, the Kennedys land in Dallas, and there the motorcade is waiting for them. That's next time on Legacy sa.
- [55:41]
Afwahersh
Follow Legacy on the Wondery app, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge seasons early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey@wondery.com survey from wondering goalhanger. This is the third episode in our series about JFK.
- [56:07]
Peter Frankopen
A quick note about our dialogue. We can't know everything that was said or done behind closed doors, particularly when we go far back in history. But our scenes are written using the best available sources. So even if a scene or conversation has been recreated for dramatic effect, it's still based on biographical research. Research.
- [56:23]
Afwahersh
We've used many sources for this series, including Robert Dalek's John F. Kennedy An Unfinished Life and the John F. Kennedy Presidential Library and Museum Archive. Audio is courtesy of Getty Images. Legacy is hosted by me Afwahersh and me Peter Frankopern Scene writing by Kirsty Smith for Goalhanger.
- [56:42]
Peter Frankopen
Our series producers are Kate Taylor and Anoushka Lewis. Robin Scott Elliott is associate producer. Our production managers are Izzy Reid and Alex Hack Roberts. The executive producers are Tony Pastor and Jack Davenport.
- [56:55]
Afwahersh
Legacy is sound, designed and engineered by Phil Brown.
- [56:58]
Peter Frankopen
Music supervision is Scott Velasquez for Fritz and Sync.
- [57:01]
Afwahersh
Our producer for Wondery is Emanuela Quinarti Francis and our managing producer is Rachel Sibley.
- [57:07]
Peter Frankopen
Executive producers for Wondery are Estelle Doyle, Chris Bourne, Morgan Jones and Marshall Louis.