John F. Kennedy | The Poor Little Rich Boy | 1

Summary

Legacy Podcast: "John F. Kennedy | The Poor Little Rich Boy" – Episode 1 Summary

I. Introduction to Legacy and JFK’s Legacy

In the premiere episode of Legacy, hosted by Afua Hersh and Peter Frankopan, the focus shifts to one of the most iconic figures in American history: John F. Kennedy (JFK). The hosts set the stage by questioning whether JFK's legacy is as deserved as its widespread acclaim suggests. They explore pivotal moments such as the Cuban Missile Crisis, JFK's civil rights initiatives, and the enigmatic aspects of his personal life, aiming to provide a nuanced understanding of his impact on both domestic and international stages.

II. The Shadow of Assassination and Cultural Impact

The episode begins by addressing how JFK’s assassination has overshadowed his achievements and complexities as a leader. Afua Hersh remarks at [04:23]:

"There's no doubt that the way he died has almost overshadowed the way he lived in terms of his fame and legacy."

She elaborates on how the assassination not only left room for numerous conspiracy theories but also fostered a pervasive distrust in governmental institutions, a sentiment that continues to resonate in contemporary society.

III. The Kennedy Family Dynamics

Delving into JFK's background, the hosts paint a picture of the Kennedy family as affluent, influential, and steeped in political ambition. Peter Frankopan discusses the implications of JFK’s upbringing under the stern and often distant guidance of his father, Joseph P. Kennedy Sr.:

"Joe Senior has a deeply held conviction that one of his sons is destined for politics and will end up in the White House." – [06:19] Peter Frankopan

The competitive and often toxic family environment is highlighted, particularly the intense rivalry between JFK and his older brother, Joe Jr., who was groomed for political leadership until his untimely death during World War II.

IV. JFK’s Childhood and Upbringing

The episode provides a vivid recount of JFK’s competitive childhood on Cape Cod, marked by intense sibling rivalry and rigid parental expectations. A dramatized scene at [08:13] illustrates a bike race between JFK and Joe Jr., culminating in a crash that underscores the physical and emotional turmoil within the family:

"Jack has a very difficult relationship with his elder brother Joe. Sometimes their fights end with medical care required." – [13:12] Afua Hersh

JFK's struggle with chronic health issues is also discussed, revealing how these physical limitations affected his self-esteem and shaped his desire to prove himself worthy of his family's legacy.

V. Education at Choate and Early Struggles

JFK's tenure at the elite Choate Boarding School is examined, highlighting his academic struggles and the significant pressure to excel. Afua Hersh reflects on the discrepancy between JFK’s privileged upbringing and the broader societal hardships of the Great Depression:

"He went to Harvard. I learned about the Great Depression at Harvard. It passed him by." – [18:23] Afua Hersh

The competitive atmosphere at Choate fostered a relentless drive in JFK, but also contributed to his perceived disorganization and rebellious nature, traits that both hindered and enhanced his later political career.

VI. Military Service and PT-109 Heroism

JFK's transition from a sheltered youth to an active-duty naval officer is a critical segment of the episode. Despite his severe health problems, he enrolls in the Navy in October 1941, driven by a sense of duty and the desire to uphold his family's honor. A dramatic recount of the PT-109 incident showcases JFK's heroism:

"He pushes the plank of wood towards the crew… 'We're going to swim to the island, find water and shelter,' he announces." – [45:49] Peter Frankopan

JFK’s leadership and bravery during the ordeal, where he saved his crew amidst shark-infested waters, cement his status as a war hero. This event not only exemplifies his resilience but also foreshadows his future political image.

VII. Personal Relationships and Affairs

The episode delves into JFK's personal life, particularly his tumultuous relationships with women. His affair with Inga Arvad, a Danish journalist, brings scrutiny from the FBI due to her connections with the German High Command:

"This is somebody who has a bad back and is injured in multiple ways and has just been through this trauma of the attack… It's a genuine passion that he falls for Inger Arvad." – [43:53] Afua Hersh

Hersh critiques JFK’s objectification of women and the ways in which his charisma and flawed moral compass allowed him to navigate and often exploit these relationships despite his physical vulnerabilities.

VIII. Political Awakening and Diverging from Father's Views

A pivotal moment in JFK’s political development occurs during his travels in Europe. Witnessing Churchill's steadfast stance against Hitler during the declaration of war in 1939 profoundly influences his worldview, setting him apart from his father’s isolationist tendencies:

"Jack Kennedy is reacting to that. I think he sees that it's all misguided." – [33:19] Afua Hersh

This exposure cultivates his belief in internationalism and America's active role in global affairs, contrasting sharply with his father’s belief that America should remain uninvolved in European conflicts.

IX. The Tragic Death of Joe Jr. and Its Impact on JFK

The culmination of the episode focuses on the devastating death of JFK’s brother, Joe Jr., in August 1944 during a daring military mission. This tragedy not only deepens JFK's personal grief but also propels him into the political spotlight as the new heir to his father's aspirations:

"Joe was meant to parachute out of the plane at the last minute. So a very dangerous mission." – [50:59] Peter Frankopan

JFK grapples with the loss and the immense pressure to live up to both his family’s expectations and his own emerging identity as a leader, setting the stage for his eventual rise to the presidency.

X. Conclusion and Teaser for Next Episode

The episode wraps up by posing the question of whether JFK can step up to his newly inherited role amidst personal struggles and heightened expectations. Afua Hersh hints at exploring JFK's further transformation and challenges in the next installment of the series.

"So the question is going to be, will Jack be able to step up to the plate? That's next time on Legacy." – [50:59] Peter Frankopan

Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Afua Hersh [04:23]:

  "There's no doubt that the way he died has almost overshadowed the way he lived in terms of his fame and legacy."

• Peter Frankopan [06:19]:

  "Joe Senior has a deeply held conviction that one of his sons is destined for politics and will end up in the White House."

• Afua Hersh [13:12]:

  "Jack has a very difficult relationship with his elder brother Joe. Sometimes their fights end with medical care required."

• Afua Hersh [18:23]:

  "He went to Harvard. I learned about the Great Depression at Harvard. It passed him by."

• Peter Frankopan [33:19]:

  "I think Jack Kennedy is reacting to that. I think he sees that it's all misguided."

• Afua Hersh [50:59]:

  "So the question is going to be, will Jack be able to step up to the plate? That's next time on Legacy."

Closing Thoughts

This episode of Legacy provides a comprehensive examination of JFK’s early life, shedding light on the intricate dynamics of the Kennedy family, JFK’s personal battles, and the formative experiences that shaped his political ideology. By intertwining dramatized narratives with insightful discussions, Hersh and Frankopan offer listeners a richly detailed portrayal of JFK that goes beyond the familiar historical narratives, inviting a deeper contemplation of his true legacy.

Transcript

[Afua Hersh]

Wondery subscribers can binge seasons of legacy early and ad free. Join Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

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[Peter Frankopan]

Hello and welcome to this brand new series of Legacy. In this series, we're going to be talking about one of the most famous men to ever sit in the Oval.

[Afua Hersh]

Office, but a man who was not quite the gilded happy go lucky playboy. He seemed to be John F. Kennedy, President of the United States for just over a thousand days. Not that long, but history suggests to have made a big difference.

[Peter Frankopan]

For me, one of the key questions about his legacy centers on the Cuban Missile Crisis in the early 1960s. What might have happened if Kennedy hadn't been in the White House at that particular moment? Is he the man who saved the world from nuclear war?

[Afua Hersh]

What about Kennedy's domestic legacy? How much of a civil rights and social justice champion was he really? And also the serious questions about the activities of the CIA during that era, especially in developing countries under his watch. How much did he know and what are the consequences of that today?

[Peter Frankopan]

And we're recording this in the buildup to the US election of 2024, so it's the perfect time to be thinking about the role of American presidents, what differences they can or can't make both at home and abroad.

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[Peter Frankopan]

From Wandery and Goalhanger. I'm Peter Frankopan.

[Afua Hersh]

I'm Afuha.

[Peter Frankopan]

And this is Legacy, the show that tells the lives of the most extraordinary men and women ever to have lived and asks if they have the reputation that they deserve.

[Afua Hersh]

This is jfk, episode one, the poor little Rich boy.

[Peter Frankopan]

Afwa jfk. It's just assassination, assassination, assassination. And throw in Marilyn Monroe and all those conspiracy theories. Is that why he's so famous?

[Afua Hersh]

There's no doubt that the way he died has almost overshadowed the way he lived in terms of his fame and legacy. And it's not just that there are conspiracy theories around his assassination. It's almost the conspiracy theory that gave birth to the latter half of the 20th century and the time we live in now. This distrust of the state, this suspicion that the authorities are lying, that there are these plots, that there is a deep state, all these things that are so contemporary, I feel like they have a real origin in his era.

[Peter Frankopan]

It's such an important time in global history and particularly the history of the United states, the late 50s and early 60s, the change that's going through the world through different continents, things like music, things like fashion, things like televised debates, the ways in which people are engaging with their politicians. There's a whole set of shifts that Kennedy lives through and dies through. There's so much to talk about with jfk, but it also feels like well traveled ground. Do you think people are so familiar with the JFK story that we're going to have to work hard to introduce new ideas and themes that people don't already know?

[Afua Hersh]

Well, we always work hard, Peter. I think that there are definitely people who are listening who are going to be really knowledgeable about jfk. But for a lot of us, and I include myself before I did the work involved for this, I think a lot of us have a Kind of false sense of familiarity with his story because he's so omnipresent, but actually how much we know about who he was, what he stood for, the decisions he made, the events he was part of. I think there's so much to learn. And there's a big question for me as well. He, of all of the 20th century presidents, had the shortest tenure, possibly had the least opportunity to actually shape policies that would have a lasting impact on America. But he seems to be remembered as the President who had the greatest legacy.

[Peter Frankopan]

It's funny that, isn't it? Because there have been American presidents who've steered through wars, through economic catastrophes, who've had much more important legacies. And yet there's something about Kennedy, the man, something about the court around him. Camelot. There's something about his death, there's something about his personal life that somehow puts all of the kind of lightning in the clouds together that makes him that kind of figurehead for thinking about all these different sort of ideas and theories. And some of that resurgence is reasonably recent. The Oliver Stone film, of course in the 90s, but also the rise of the Internet has been perfect to puff some of these ideas around JFK and his court.

[Afua Hersh]

And as we speak, his name has become a live part of this 2024 U.S. election. And that's something I think we'll talk about in a bit. But I want to pop quiz you.

[Peter Frankopan]

Go on. I hate pop quizzes because you either look like you're know it all or that have major gaps in your knowledge. Please let it be an easy one.

[Afua Hersh]

Well, I think it would be more embarrassing for you if you can't name these. That's why I'm asking you if I can't name them. People would just think it's not my space. Okay, can you name the four presidents killed in office in America?

[Peter Frankopan]

Thank God. Okay, it could have been worse. So we've got Abraham Lincoln, I think probably the most famous assassination, probably more impactful than JFK, JFK himself, of course, James Garfield and Andrew McKinley.

[Afua Hersh]

Too easy. Okay, what were the dates of the assassination?

[Peter Frankopan]

No one has tuned in to listen to dates. That's just the history.

[Afua Hersh]

Okay, okay, okay. That's not even in the quiz. I'm just.

[Peter Frankopan]

But what I will throw to my quiz that you've, you know, I'm of a different generation to you. Mafwa. So one of my early memories as a nine year old boy was the attempted assassination of Ronald Reagan. And that made a big impact of course on the news. The height of The Cold War. Similar kind of echoes of was this a Soviet plot? Who was trying to kill Reagan and why? And so the idea that the most powerful man in the world could be killed and that the world would turn, that really meant something. Growing up.

[Afua Hersh]

We all witnessed recently Trump surviving an assassination attempt. It doesn't feel like it's had the same impact on the culture as Reagan's attempted assassination.

[Peter Frankopan]

I think all the bets are off until we see what happens in the election in November this year. But I think that idea of a single figure on whom so much depends and the fact that people think that murdering a president can change the course of history tells us a lot about fragility. So it's going to be great to think about what that really meant in JFK's case. John Fitzgerald Kennedy was born on the 29th of May, 1917 at Brookline, Massachusetts. He's known as Jack from when he's born, and he's the second son of Joe and Rose Kennedy. His big brother, Joe Jr. Is a couple of years older. So let's just work a couple of things out. There are a lot of Joes in this story and a lot of Johns.

[Afua Hersh]

Because the names in this family drive me completely nuts. They're all called John, Jack, Joe, Jackie, Junior Junior.

[Peter Frankopan]

Lots of juniors around.

[Afua Hersh]

So John Fitzgerald Kennedy, we're going to call him Jack until he gets to.

[Peter Frankopan]

The White House, and then we're going to call him jfk, and then we're.

[Afua Hersh]

Going to call him jfk.

[Peter Frankopan]

All right.

[Afua Hersh]

And his dad is called Joe, and his brother is called Joe Jr.

[Peter Frankopan]

Okay, tell me a bit about his dad.

[Afua Hersh]

So his dad was from Irish Catholic heritage and really wealthy. He'd built a fortune through the banking and movie business and actually thrived during the Great Depression, which led to some people speculating that he might have some kind of illicit gangster, prohibition type business. But as far as I know, that's never been stood up. But I knew that he was from a rich family, but it was only really researching this, I appreciated how rich the family were. One of the best known, richest families in America, and on his mother's side, with political clout as well, because his maternal grandfather was the mayor of Boston. So even though they're Catholic, which makes them slight outsiders in some parts of the establishment, they are a very powerful family in a very powerful part of America.

[Peter Frankopan]

But it's quite a tough upbringing. They might have wealth and all the trimmings and trappings that come with that, but his mother, Rose, is a tough nut. Jack is one of nine children born across 17 years. The last one born in 1932. But Rose is incredibly distant, very tough, tells her children to stop crying under any circumstances. And she has a very difficult, complex relationship with her husband, too. She'd take breaks to travel on her own, away from her husband and children. Is very, very distant.

[Afua Hersh]

Well, I was looking at her influence on parenting, and she read this book, Rose, His Mother, that was very popular at the Time by Dr. Emmett Holt, and it was about how to bring up children. And this is a line from that book which was a real mainstay of parenting for years in the early 20th century. This doctor advised babies under 6 months should never be played with. And the less of it at any time, the better for the infant. They are made nervous and irritable, sleep badly, and suffer from indigestion. That's the kind of influence that his mother was under. This idea that you shouldn't play with children and that you should train them to be disciplined. And it sounds like a pretty cold, remote experience of being mothered. And then, as you said, his father was often described as a womanizer. And womanizing is a word that comes up a lot in the JFK story. I actually think that if we were talking about someone like Joe Senior now, I think we would call him a predator. He had girlfriends and mistresses, but he would sometimes try and sleep with the girlfriends of his own children. He was a really badly behaved man who had, I think, the capacity to exploit women in a really unpleasant way.

[Peter Frankopan]

But it's brazen as well. I mean, he's bringing his mistresses home. It's not that this is being done in apartments and hotels out of sight. It's absolutely in plain air. That has a real influence on teaching young boys sitting around the table, and in fact, his daughters, too, about what normal behavior looks like and what you can get away with. And that no one ever stands up to you and says that maybe you should behave in a way that is more respectful.

[Afua Hersh]

And there's this slightly unpleasant ideology running through it that we must eliminate the unfit by birth, not by death. The race is to be most effectively improved by preventing marriage and reproduction by the unfit, the degenerate. I think you can see how that influenced the family with the example of their sister, for example, Rosemary, their younger sister, who was born with mental health issues. And the mother, Rose, cared for her much more closely than anyone else in the family. But Joe Senior didn't approve of the idea of having a child who was, to use that language, mentally unfit. And he put her through a lobotomy when she was 21, which had disastrous consequences and left her institutionalized for life. So it was almost this kind of dark secret in the family and anyone who didn't live up to this ideal of this prestigious destined to rule inheritors of the earth was quietly swept under the carpet.

[Peter Frankopan]

And I think that is the kind of key to Jack's childhood and that of his siblings. Constant competition, being forced to think about their status and how they deserve to be telling everybody else what to do. And Jack has a very difficult relationship with his elder brother Joe. Sometimes their fights end with medical care required. On one occasion Jack ends up needing 28 stitches. So I mean, it's a tough world to grow up in.

[Afua Hersh]

Cape Cod, summer 1927. Waves lap the shore next to the Kennedys beachfront home at Hyannis Port, a six acre waterfront estate where the families spend their summers. Ten year old Jack pulls a plimpsole and a towel from the mess strewn across his bedroom floor. Popping into his shoes, he races through the chic white hallway past his mother who he can see busy updating the index card system she's devised to track her children's health. Ignoring the loud tuts of the maid, he dumps the sodden towel on the porch and runs out into the sunshine to join his siblings gathered on the manicured law. The younger kids squeal with excitement. Older brother Joe Jr. Is waiting on his bike. First one round the house wins, announces Joe. Do you need a minute? Jack scowls, spotting his father observing them from the house. Catching his breath, he mounts his bike, determined to demonstrate the vigor his family prizes so dearly. Seven year old Kathleen, the oldest sister, counts them down. Three, two, one, go. Hitting the pedals as hard as he can, Jack cycles off in the opposite direction to Joe, to cheers of encouragement from his brothers and sisters. Lungs burning, he circles the white clapboard mansion. Two years younger than Joe, Jack knows this is Joe's race to lose. Making the final turn, his wheel skids, leaving a deep scar in the clipped grass. Up ahead, he can see Joe. The racer's neck and neck finishing in a dead heat could be interpreted as a win for Jack if they weren't Kennedys. For them only first will do. Racing to the finish, a numb pain builds up in Jack's legs. He can see Joe is heading for exactly the same spot. Their eyes meet, Jack refusing to give way, rising out of his seat to push harder. Joe is doing exactly, exactly the same. Jack hears the excited cheers turn to screams of panic as he Collides with his brother. Thrown from his bike, his head hits the ground hard. His vision swims. Straining to pull himself up, he looks across at his father. The last thing he sees before passing out is the contented smile on Joe Senior's face.

[Peter Frankopan]

It's funny Afro. When you go through that, you can picture it in Cape Cod, the sort of the idyllic childhood and then think, God, isn't it horrific? But isn't that just what siblings do to each other? They batter seven bells and always try to compete. Is it unusual?

[Afua Hersh]

I don't know. I didn't grow up with any brothers. So I feel like there's also a brotherly thing that happens. And also in some families that's seen as healthy, a healthy competition. Rough and tumble boys will be boys. And I think there is a healthy side to that. Growing up surrounded by siblings and all messing around, there's a side to it where you become so desperate for parental approval that you're not really doing it for your own fun anymore. You're doing it for a reason that feeds something a bit less healthy in your psyche. Joe Senior has a deeply held conviction that one of his sons is destined for politics and will end up in the White House. And the son that he invests all of those hopes onto is Joe Junior. But it is an idyllic childhood in many ways. And they've got nannies who pick up the wet towels wherever they dump them and the dirty clothes wherever they drop them. And they're in Cape Cod in the summer and Florida in the winter. And they are seen as this self contained, tight knit, loyal clan. And friends describe them as this group that's almost impenetrable. You watch these people go through their lives and just had a feeling that they existed outside the usual laws of nature. Do you know what it reminds me of? Actually, it reminds me of Daisy and Tom in the Great Gatsby. The idea of these privileged people who just move through life and everything rolls off them like water off a duck's back. They've got each other and the world will kind of yield to them.

[Peter Frankopan]

That sort of jars with the idea of the Great Depression that's affecting so many other people in the US at the same time. How does the United States look in the 1920s and early 30s in that kind of period of the Great Depression?

[Afua Hersh]

Well, it's a catastrophic time for so many Americans, really. Extreme divide opening up between rich and poor. So many people falling into real life changing destitution. And it's one of those things you know, when you study the Great Depression, as I did in history, it doesn't really occur to you that there's anyone who's completely immune from it. There are children growing up who don't even notice it's happening. And I think that's Jack. He later says when he goes to Harvard. I learned about the Great Depression at Harvard. It passed him by. That's how sheltered they were.

[Peter Frankopan]

It's funny, and it's one of the things we're gonna talk about in other episodes, which is where does that desire to serve the public? And yet you're not of them. You're trying to be their voice and you're trying to help other people, but you've got no experience of what they've lived through. That idea that you can be helping other people, is that a sort of patrician sense of entitlement, that you have the voice that deserves to be heard?

[Afua Hersh]

It does feel quite 19th century, doesn't it? You know, I think of British politics and the era of all these grandees in Parliament who didn't even earn an income from being an MP because it was something that rich people did. And it feels almost of that era. And I think a lot of our politics is like that. A lot of our politicians have been people who were raised with a sense of their own greatness, that they were destined for power. And to their credit, if they want to use that sense of greatness and power to try and improve things for ordinary people, I guess that's commendable. But it's not coming from a lived experience of the hardship of being in a system that doesn't work for you. That's certainly the Kennedys. And among all that, Jack Kennedy then gets sent to one of the most elite boarding schools in America, Choate. I had a boyfriend at university who went to Choate who was African American and hadn't grown up in a. In a wealth environment at all. In fact, he grew up in a pretty underprivileged environment. He got a scholarship to Choate. And I remember him trying to convey to me what a big deal it was for a poor kid to go to Choate because it was really where the elite entitled, destined leaders of America went to school and formed their lifelong social networks.

[Peter Frankopan]

So it's kind of the Eton of the United States. You know, it grooms leaders and tells them that they're going to be in charge of everything. But Jack is not a model pupil. He struggles academically. He's very chaotic, despite the fact he's been brought up In a household where everything runs on, a pin is always late for things. He's very disorganized and it's hard to know whether we would. You know, that's a sort of form of dyspraxia or whether it's a kind of reaction. And he's rebelling against the sort of the straightjacket. But he's one of those people who, despite the fact that they're late, is able to be quite charming. He's able to his way out of problems, he's able to put people at ease and he's able to somehow deflect all kinds of negative criticism. And he's able to use the gift of the gab and those kind of silky skills to be able to get out of trouble.

[Afua Hersh]

Can you relate to any of this? Peter, I'm so curious. What was your experience at school like?

[Peter Frankopan]

I think that I was at a school that was highly privileged for, you know, we had lots of sports facilities and fantastic teachers and a kind of sense that competition was normal. Every term, we all got gathered in the school theatre and had our names read out in reverse order of where we came in our year group. Academically, that got cancelled because, not surprisingly, that bit toxic, totally toxic. But I think that when you're in that bubble, you don't think that it's unusual. It's quite hard to relate to the fact that not everybody. I mean, you understand that everybody is not as lucky to have those kinds of facilities and privileges. But you also think, well, it's not my fault that I'm here, but you're definitely trained to compete, and that's a really tough thing to do. I've definitely had moments of struggling with that where, as an academic, to be generous, to be forgiving, to see the best in other people, doesn't come instinctively. And I can feel sometimes I really. I have to work quite hard to suppress that.

[Afua Hersh]

So they're not training you to be generous and gracious and forgiving and.

[Peter Frankopan]

No, and it's very different. I mean, I think it's partly a generational thing. So in my kids generation and students that are now at my university, they're incredibly supportive of each other. They've been trained the opposite way around. They've been trained to think and to be mindful, to think about other people's successes and revel in them and celebrate them rather than feel threatened by them. But I think that was all understated and undersaid. At these kind of schools, you are being told that you've got to Be in the top teams. You've got to be academically brilliant, you've got to be a high achiever. And that burns something into you that you have to, you know, you have to understand yourself quite well, to diagnose it and to try to neutralize it.

[Afua Hersh]

It's a lot to ask of a child who's away from home at boarding school.

[Peter Frankopan]

It's toxic. But you know, I think at the time that was the kind of thought to be the DNA for the power of empire, that was thought to be the DNA of the power of the American economy. But you see that in the States and it's not just about background and privilege, of wealth, education, family background. You see that with some of the conversations in Silicon Valley where people think that they have a right to be shaping discussions around technology and AI and not really thinking about what the systemic societal consequences might be. So the way that Jack Kennedy was brought up, you know, women are part of that entitlement, wealth, competition, it's all part of something that's quite dark.

[Afua Hersh]

It is, and it's part of the true story that he was not exceptional as a pupil, but very charming. And there's something else that we haven't really talked about, but that is holding him back from reaching his full potential. Something that you're supposed to have in abundance when you're a teenage boy and that is good health.

[Peter Frankopan]

New Haven, Connecticut. January 1934. As the sirens blare, 17 year old Jack stares at the roof of the ambulance, his hands clasping the breathing apparatus to his face. The coughing fit is subsiding and now he's embarrassed at being rushed to hospital like this. The headmaster's wife has kicked up a whole fuss over nothing. He was fine in the school infirmary reading Churchill's World War I memoirs. All he needed was time to recuperate. Sighing, he tries not to think about his school friends watching as he was carried out by medics. His time at Choate has been punctuated with unexplained illness and hospital stays. Invalided off the football team, his weak, scrawny frame has earned him the nickname Rat Face. Meanwhile, Big brother Joe has excelled at everything. He feels the ambulance slow and hears the heavy doors clunk open. Carried into New Haven Hospital, all he can do is stare up at the drab corridor ceilings as the staff wheel him into a private ward where they lift him into a bed. Ripping off the breathing apparatus, he pushes the nurses fussing around him away. Levering his weak body up into a seated position, he takes in the brightly lit room. The doctor approaches. Jack smiles and offers up his arms for inspection. His entire body is covered in an angry red rash. This, combined with his weak state and the worrying cough, have panicked the school, who've overreacted. He hears the doctor instruct nurses to take samples, more tests. Jack is fed up with being prodded and probed. And all for what? Despite his father's money, no one seems to have any answers. Gathering his energy to remonstrate, he hears a word that stops him in his tracks. A new possible diagnosis. Leukemia. Closing his eyes, Jack sinks back exhausted into the starched hospital pillows, worried that finally there's an answer to his medical problems. So quite a few times in his years at Choate, he's rushed back to hospital and it turns out he doesn't actually have leukemia. But the doctors just don't know what's wrong with him. Afua. But the health is a big problem for him.

[Afua Hersh]

It's a huge problem, an ongoing issue that lasts the rest of his life. And as if that's not enough of a struggle, I think the additional pressure is the demand to keep it secret. This sense of shame that he is meant to be this physically perfect specimen. So it just doesn't fit with who he's meant to be, who his father wants him to be, who the Kennedys are supposed. And I think that it speaks to his strength of character in a way that he tries so hard to hide it and soldier on, but it's really a physical and mental strain and actually life threatening at various times throughout his life.

[Peter Frankopan]

I think that's right. But it's also that. What is it that is wrong with him? Why does he have a limp and a cough? And that makes him feel embarrassed, particularly because his father doesn't accept frailty. You know, second best will never do is something he preaches. But he does well at school and he thrives by the end. He does well at his subjects in history and English. He enjoys his sport, he's a good swimmer. And his headmaster thinks he's doing well enough that he tells his father to watch out for this one. He's going to make something of himself. One of those great understatements. I don't know whether your headmaster said the same thing about you. Afro. Keep an eye on this Afro.

[Afua Hersh]

Hersh. Yeah, I think watch out may have been used, I don't know if in as positive a guise. At the same time, his brother Joe, with whom he has this intensely competitive relationship, is the star of the football field, the American football hero. All American God in the making. So that's extra pressure. And he does follow his brother to Harvard and he loves the relative freedom of university.

[Peter Frankopan]

Well, it's not just the relative freedom. He loves the fact that there are women there.

[Afua Hersh]

I can get my tail as often and as free as I want, which is a step in the right direction. I'm just going to say. For anyone who's offended by the language, that's the tip of the iceberg. The way that he talks and writes about women is not ideal. To say he objectifies them is a massive understatement. He sleeps with women at Harvard so often he frequently can't remember their names. And often when he walks past a woman he slept with, he'll just say, hey, kid.

[Peter Frankopan]

Yeah. I mean, imagine. What's that all about, Afro? Is that him trying to prove something to himself? Is it that he's showing off to his mate? Is that just how he's been brought up by his father? To think that it's acceptable?

[Afua Hersh]

I actually think about, not to be too graphic, but the physical impracticality of having such an intense sex life when you've got so many physical health problems. It was probably a lot of exertion for him. There seems a kind of determination that he was going to pursue this identity of this man who constantly sleeps with women in spite of the fact that he saw his father do it to the detriment of all of their lives as a child, in spite of the fact that he's physically actually quite weak and in a lot of pain and discomfort. And it's always been something that's a little out of step with his character. He does have values, he does have principles. He is somebody who thinks with integrity and rigor, and we see that throughout his life. But when it comes to his relationship with women, it's like he suspends his moral compass.

[Peter Frankopan]

But Jack does spend time studying. He gets interested in politics, political leadership, political thought, history. But his eyes keep straying across the Atlantic because there's a lot going on in Europe at that time.

[Afua Hersh]

We're now in the closing years of the 1930s, and Europe is once again a continent in turmoil, heading in a familiar direction. It's exactly where Jack wants to be. Will he get the chance?

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[Afua Hersh]

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[Peter Frankopan]

So from his teenage years, Jack Kennedy shows a great interest in Europe and its politics. And he sees his future perhaps as a roving New York Times correspondent, because remember, it's his big brother, Joe Jr. Who is earmarked for a career in politics.

[Afua Hersh]

So in the summer of 1937, he goes with his best friend Lem, and actually pays for Lem because he can't afford the trip.

[Peter Frankopan]

Who's Lem?

[Afua Hersh]

Lem Billings, Jack's best friend from childhood.

[Peter Frankopan]

Lem, short for the popular name Lemoine.

[Afua Hersh]

A very popular name. I could do a whole sidebar to the names in the Kennedy story because there are a lot of fun, vaguely aristocratic adjacent European names that float around.

[Peter Frankopan]

I think it's cause in the deep. I think I'm right that in the south that you would, well, certainly with women you would take the mother's surname as a first name to show that you're a posho.

[Afua Hersh]

So Lem comes along with him and they tour the First World War battlefields in France. They go and visit museums and art galleries. It's almost a 20th century version of the 19th century grand tour, isn't it, Peter?

[Peter Frankopan]

Well, you know, if you're minted and you're American, you might as well see what all the fuss is about. But later on in 1937, Joe Senior is appointed US Ambassador to Britain and.

[Afua Hersh]

It'S a very prestigious ambassadorship.

[Peter Frankopan]

Well, you know, he's not the only ambassador that Happens to. But he's got no diplomatic experience. He's never been an ambassador before. How to speak for your country, how to represent your nation, and how to bring the right kind of information back is a real challenge, because Joe's got quite strong opinions about what's happening in Europe.

[Afua Hersh]

He's got his own agenda, and he is a real isolationist. He believes that America should stay out of Europe, that any war in Europe is Europe's problem. So he's bringing a very specific set of views and ideologies to that role at such a critical moment in history.

[Peter Frankopan]

Does this ring a bit of a bell today? I mean, I've grown up with the United States being highly involved in global affairs for good and for ill. But we're in an age now where there are these voices again, talking about American isolationism, saying, what's happening in Ukraine, what's happening in the Middle east, what's happening elsewhere in the world. It's not our problem. We want to stay out of it. But at the time, it was incredibly influential having these senior figures saying that the United States is for Americans, and Americans just stay out of other people's affairs.

[Afua Hersh]

And his son Jack is the opposite. And this is where he doesn't just follow his father, seeking his father's approval. He is not an isolationist. He is an internationalist. He is fascinated with international affairs. He believes in the connectedness of the world. And he is also a real Europhile and very attached to the idea of America's relationship with Europe. So he has a real difference of opinion with his father on this. And what a time to be in Europe with your father, the American ambassador, exploring your own views about the way that Europe is changing and the consequences this could have for the future of America. It's a big moment.

[Peter Frankopan]

I mean, he's also a pain in the neck, as you'd expect. He travels around on a diplomatic passport, constantly turning up at U.S. diplomatic missions. And because he's the son of somebody powerful and rich and a diplomat, you know, you have more senior figures older than Jack being asked to do things for him. In fact, when he goes back to Harvard, he writes a dissertation and quite often gets in touch with US Embassies in Europe and asks for help and for information and for notes. And of course, for Jack, that's completely normal. You go to Rome, the Pope gives you communion with all the Kennedys, too. You know, you have, okay, let's.

[Afua Hersh]

Let's. Just. Because we keep saying he's privileged, let's just really, like, run down what we mean when we say he's privileged. He goes to Rome, he gets to see the Pope. He goes fishing in Scotland, skiing in Switzerland. When he goes to the French Riviera, he stays with Marlene Dietrich. When he comes to Britain, he has tea with Queen Mary and Princess Elizabeth. He is definitely no ordinary American student doing their little rail trip around Europe. And he's also got this fearlessness that I think comes with knowing how well protected you are. He goes to Germany. This is the height of Nazi expansionism within Germany, stays at Munich, and actually has a really violent brush with Stormtroopers when they see his British number plates. It's. It's a dangerous and risky thing to do. And I think it speaks to how secure he feels and almost entitled to kind of have this cultural experience, knowing someone will rescue him.

[Peter Frankopan]

That's absolutely right for what you're saying. I can't argue with any of it, but I'd probably add onto it and say it's very formative, his time in Europe, actually, for later worldviews. Not just because he's, as you said, takes a different view of the world and of Europe to his father and is an internationalist. But I think what he sees in Britain in particular is how Churchill is important in framing the response to the rise of Hitler, that Churchill is right and everybody else is wrong. This is a time when lots of people in Europe think that fascism is the cure for communism. Right. That the rise of the right is not just an inevitability, as Joe Kennedy thinks, but it's also a good thing broadly, you know, laced with antisemitism, laced with ideas about physicality, laced with the ideas about Northern Europeans and so on. But Joe Kennedy senior starts writing cables back to the United States that says that it's going to be important in the United States to adopt a totalitarian reproach to politics. He suggests that there should be a small committee that's set up with him chairing it, of course, that will be able to rule the United States without any reference to Congress. And Jack Kennedy is reacting to that. I think he sees that it's all misguided. So in the autumn of 1939, with the war arriving, Britain declares war on Germany in the wake of the Nazi invasion of Poland. Jack is there in England. He's a young man fascinated by history unfolding in front of his eyes. But I think it's a seminal moment in him working out how those bets in the geopolitical scenario get laid. And his father is on the wrong side of history.

[Afua Hersh]

London, September 3, 1939. Jack is with Joe Jr. And Kick, his favorite sister, Kathleen, marching briskly through the streets of Westminster. London seems eerily quiet as they make their way to the first ever Sunday sitting of Parliament. Gays fixed ahead. Jack ignores the photographer snapping shots of the glamorous Kennedy clan. Since their father's appointment as ambassador to Britain, the family have captivated the British public. But Jack knows they're unlikely to make the papers today. Today there is bigger news. Less than an hour ago, Chamberlain announced on the radio that Britain was at war with Germany. Jack is nervous about what this will mean for the wider world and for his family. Mounting the steps of the Houses of Parliament, he spots his parents. Jack and his father disagree on the war, which Joe Senior thinks should be avoided at all costs. But Jack's travels through Europe have convinced him that Hitler can't be negotiated with. Walking with his family to the visitors gallery, he takes his seat to watch an historic moment. But seeing Chamberlain address the House, Jack finds his mind wondering. This isn't the powerful scene he was expecting. Chamberlain isn't saying anything that wasn't in the earlier radio speaker. Then Churchill takes the floor. As Jack hears Churchill's voice booming confidently across the Commons, he strains forward out of his seat, wanting to see more. Churchill's speech is somber, but also rousing. Jack feels mobilized into action, ready to do his part. And he wonders one day, instead of watching history unfolding, could he be part of it?

[Peter Frankopan]

Pretty amazing, you know, the historical fluke and coincidence that the most famous American president of the 20th century is there in the chamber when this is all happening. And the impact of seeing Churchill stand up and give a rousing speech that's defining what is actually going on, rather than the old hack of Neville Chamberlain repeating himself. I mean, it's so important because Kennedy is so good at giving some of those iconic speeches himself.

[Afua Hersh]

How incredible to have seen Nazi aggression rising, to have seen Chamberlain's appeasement, to have seen all that, to have been forming his views and then to be there in Parliament in real time watching war be declared, and then see Churchill now stepping into that role. I think it is a seminal influence in modeling the kind of statesman he wants to be.

[Peter Frankopan]

I think that what Jack Kennedy is watching is what happens if you get policy wrong, what happens if you're not understanding and correctly analyzing those storm clouds that have been forming because the German invasion at the start of the Second World War wasn't a surprise. This wasn't something that had mushroomed up over the previous days. And weeks it had been coming a long way back. So I think that underneath the Playboy exterior there is that keen mind and trying to think about not just being part of history, but how do you get a better sense of what's going on in the world? And if you are isolationist and you get it wrong, then you've not got much to fall back on.

[Afua Hersh]

It's hard to remember because he's so active and so excited about everything he's learning at this time that he's still struggling with these health problems. He's got stomach issues as well now and problems with his back. So it seems that as war now spreads, the military is out of bounds for him and that his war will be fought from the sidelines. Well, that's how it seems, but actually Jack has other ideas.

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[Afua Hersh]

In October 1941, two months before America enters the war in the wake of Pearl Harbor, Jack Kennedy does what I'm sure people close to him thought he would not be able to do. He signs up for active duty.

[Peter Frankopan]

Well, you say that they thought he wouldn't be able to do it, but that's because of his health problems. But in fact, what he writes to one of his friends, he says, it'll look quite bad if I don't. So it's all about looking like you're doing the right thing. And I suppose serving your country and being a volunteer, that's not a bad thing, right?

[Afua Hersh]

And actually a lot of the sons of powerful people have nice intelligence desk based jobs arranged for them. So they have the best of both worlds. They're seen to be doing their duty, but their lives aren't on the line. And that's how it's looking for Jack at this point. And in his defense, he genuinely has such serious health problems that combat is really not a realistic option. So at this stage it seems like he will be in an intelligence role. And he does start working a desk job in Naval Intelligence in Washington.

[Peter Frankopan]

And of course a desk job gives you plenty of time for Jack's second favorite activity or favorite hobby, which I think our listeners will know what that is. Afwa.

[Afua Hersh]

But this isn't strictly womanizing because actually Jack is now, for the first time that we've seen, really falling in love. And it's an interesting choice for his first serious love affair. Danish journalist Inga Arvada. Tell us about her, Peter.

[Peter Frankopan]

She is Miss Denmark, 1931. She's a perfect Nordic beauty. Guess who calls her that?

[Afua Hersh]

Hitler.

[Peter Frankopan]

Correct. Her other friend and a guess of whom she says his eyes shine so bright they show his, quote, his very kind heart. Who do you think she's saying that about?

[Afua Hersh]

Ooh, Hitler, Hitler.

[Peter Frankopan]

So she's a sort of acquired taste, I guess. But she's blonde, blue eyed, Danish, she's just coming to the end of her second marriage. But they do fall quite hard for each other. The problem is, because of her interactions with Hitler and the German High Command, she's caught the attention of our old friend J. Edgar Hoover, who you won't be surprised by.

[Afua Hersh]

I mean, on this occasion, kind of.

[Peter Frankopan]

Justifiably, she's being watched by the FBI because she has access to these guys and the worry that she might be a spy and having an affair with a wealthy, well connected officer in Naval Intelligence whose father happens to be US Ambassador in London. It's not a great look.

[Afua Hersh]

So Jack Kennedy is not all strategy and no feelings. This is not a particularly useful love affair for his career. It's a genuine passion that he falls for Inger Arvad. And it does have pretty negative consequences for him. He gets kicked out of his intelligence job by the Navy, shunted to a less glamorous desk job in South Carolina, and that is the end of his affair with Inger Avad. Although they do stay in touch for some time after that. Writing letters to each other.

[Peter Frankopan]

But anyway, Jack's able to dodge his medical and he's posted eventually from South Carolina to the Pacific, where he's put in charge of a PT boat, which is the glamour vessel of the Navy. They're fast patrol boats armed with torpedoes. But it must have been really painful bouncing around on the waves.

[Afua Hersh]

Really painful. He really wanted to be on the front line. Lots of young men still saw going to war as a really exciting adventure. There's also, in his case, that constant competition, wanting to prove himself to his father, wanting to prove himself to his older brother, Joe Senior, who was also fighting in the war. But he's paying quite a high personal price in terms of pain and discomfort.

[Peter Frankopan]

I think also the shock of Pearl harbor, what that does to the American psyche of the unprepared attack from Japan unseen, the failure of intelligence, the need to serve your country, that was under kind of mortal threat. I think that the galvanization process that played that the isolationists are sort of driven out of office. You know, there's no space anymore for people saying this is not a war that involves the Americans.

[Afua Hersh]

If Jack thinks that there's glamour in war, it doesn't take long before that's dispelled. In March 1943, he is dispatched to the Solomon Islands as a lieutenant in the Navy, ready to command a PT boat. And on day one, his captain is struck and killed. But it's also here that Jack Kennedy really steps into his future role as a hero.

[Peter Frankopan]

Solomon Islands, 2nd of August, 1943. Dawn rises over the South Pacific and the wreckage of Jack's ship, PT109. His exhaust. Flustered crewmates float in the water as Jack puts aside the pain creeping along his already weak back. Three of his men were lost last night. As captain, it's now his job to save the rest. Daylight reveals more of their situation. Jack can see they're too exposed out here at sea. They could be picked off by any passing Japanese ship. We're going to swim to the island, find water and shelter, he announces. Jack spots panicked looks on his men's faces. McMahon, the ship's engineer, was badly burned last night. He's too injured to make it to shore. He can also sense Harris panicking as a weak swimmer. And there are two other men on the crew who can't swim at all. But Jack has a plan. Pushing a plank of wood across towards the crew, he explains, Any of you men who can't swim, climb on here and the rest can push them to shore. Seven men start to lash the two crew members who can't swim onto the makeshift wooden raft as Jack turns to Harris. You can come with me, Harris, and I'll carry McMahon on my back. As he squints at the distant shoreline, Jack thinks back to happier times in the water. Summers in Nantucket, racing for the Harvard swim team. Eyes fixed on his destination, he takes the belt of McMahon's life jacket in his teeth and starts with swimming, carrying the injured sailor on his back. At his side, Harris is already crashing wildly, worried about the distance. Through gritted teeth, Jack calmly coaches Harris through the swim, changing from gentle encouragement to stern orders when it's needed. It's an exhausting four hour swim through shark infested waters where Jack finally stumbles onto the shore of Bird island. And he has to be dragged away from the water's edge by McMahon. Sitting up, Jack watches as the rest of his crew swim to shore. Finally, they're safe. Amazing story.

[Afua Hersh]

It's an incredible story. Just that image of him with the belt of the life jacket in his teeth as he swims with someone on his back. This is somebody who has a bad back and is injured in multiple ways and has just been through this trauma of the attack. And that's not the end of it, Peter, because then when they reach land, he has to go in search of fresh water, in search of help. He scratches a come rescue us message on a coconut shell which is then carried by two local people to an American base. And that coconut then will sit on his desk in the White House.

[Peter Frankopan]

It's box set ready, isn't it?

[Afua Hersh]

Really is.

[Peter Frankopan]

You couldn't make it up. What about the way he plays it down? You know, he gets branded a hero and he says the real heroes didn't come home. Do you think that sense of camaraderie is something that is burnt through him, that he does get grounded by these experiences?

[Afua Hersh]

I think so. And after that incident, he goes back into action 10 days later. He doesn't want to bask in the glory, he wants to go back and fight. And it's not until the end of 1943 when his health really deteriorates further. By now he also has malaria, partly as a result of that experience that he goes home for some respite.

[Peter Frankopan]

He has long stretches in hospital, he has an unsuccessful operation on his back. He's in constant pain and he's discharged from the Navy. In the years after the war, he gets diagnosed with Addison's disease, which is a rare disorder of the adrenal glands that requires lifelong treatment. But that experience of having served his country, having fought alongside men who didn't come back, having seen men die, having realized what the horrors are of war shapes his relationship with the military. That's going to be really important in the war scares of the 1960s.

[Afua Hersh]

And the war has one more major lifelong change to bring for Jack. Two months after he's discharged from military service in August 1944, his older brother Joe Jr. His his closest and most rivalrous sibling, the person who defines him, who he looks up to. Also the brother who has been groomed for political leadership. Joe Jr. Is killed. It's a tragic story. He had completed his necessary missions, but he volunteered to stay on and conduct another one. And he was flying a plane that was packed with explosives. The idea was to crash it into a B1 launch site in Belgium, taking out Nazi capacity. And then Joe was meant to parachute out of the plane at the last minute. So a very dangerous mission. The plane explodes over the channel. That is a huge moment for Jack, and he's distraught. He's completely heartbroken. He tells his old friend Lem that Joe had defined his identity. I'm shadow boxing in a match. The shadow is always going to win. And it also means that the weight of Joe Senior, the father's political hopes that were fully invested in Joe Jr. Now move on to the next in line and that's Jack.

[Peter Frankopan]

So the question is going to be, will Jack be able to step up to the plate? That's next time on Legacy.

[Afua Hersh]

Follow Legacy on the Wondery app, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge seasons early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short [e-mail] survey from Wondery and Goalhanger. This is the first episode in our series about jfk.

[Peter Frankopan]

A quick note about our dialogue. We can't know everything that was said or done behind closed doors, particularly when we go far back in history. But our scenes are written using the best available sources. So even if a scene or conversation has been recreated for dramatic effect, it's still based on biographical research.

[Afua Hersh]

We've used many sources for this series, including Robert Dalek's John F. Kennedy An Unfinished Life and the John F. Kennedy Presidential Library and Museum Archive. Audio is courtesy of Getty Images. Legacy is hosted by me Afwahersh and me Peter Frankopan. Scene writing by Kirsty Smith for Goalhanger.

[Peter Frankopan]

Our series producers are Kate Taylor and Anoushka Lewis Robin. Scott Elliott is associate producer. Our production managers are Izzy Reid and Alex Hack Roberts. The executive producers are Tony Pasta and Jack Davenport.

[Afua Hersh]

Legacy is sound, designed and engineered by Phil Brown.

[Peter Frankopan]

Music supervision is Scott Velasquez of Fresn Sing.

[Afua Hersh]

Our producer for Wondery is Emanuela Quenorti Francis and our managing producer is Rachel Sibley.

[Peter Frankopan]

Executive producers for Wondery are Estelle Doyle, Chris Bourne, Morgan Jones and Marshall Louis.