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- [00:00]
Afwa Hirsch
Wondery subscribers can binge seasons of legacy early and ad free. Join Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Hello and welcome to this brand new series of legacy. In this series, Marie Antoinette, one of history's most memorable and eternally debated queens. She's a woman who met a violent end at one of the key moments in history. A victim of the most brutal time in the story of France.
- [00:38]
Peter Frankenpen
She's been described as the most fashionable queen in history, and she's still celebrated as a fashion icon today. But she's also held up as an example of all that's wrong with privilege and with royalty and with the French royal family in particular. Which is perhaps why the most notorious woman in French history ends up in a fatal meeting with France's most notorious invention. Not the baguette, but the guillotine from Wandery and Goal Hanger. I'm Peter Frankerpin.
- [01:18]
Afwa Hirsch
I'm Afwa Haysh.
- [01:19]
Peter Frankenpen
And this is Legacy, the show that tells the lives of the most extraordinary men and women ever to have lived and asks if they have the reputation that they deserve.
- [01:37]
Afwa Hirsch
This is Marie Antoinette, episode one, A Princess and a Pawn. Okay, Peter, let's start with the one thing that every school, child and adult can cite about Marie Antoinette, which is the alleged famous quote, let them eat cake. Let them eat cake, which was supposedly what she said in response to grievances that the people had run out of bread.
- [02:15]
Peter Frankenpen
But she didn't speak English.
- [02:16]
Afwa Hirsch
Right, that's the first problem, the first death knell for that allegation. She never said, let them eat cake. And it's been attributed to another royal, the wife of Louis xiv, famous Sun King, or one of the daughters of Louis xv. But there's no evidence Marie Antoinette said it. But I have to say, as a literary allegation, it's pretty powerful. And it's such a pithy way of capturing something that does have a deep reality to it, which is the potential for royals and aristocrats to be profoundly out of touch with what ordinary people are going through.
- [02:53]
Peter Frankenpen
But I mean, it's one of the problems about Marianne Tournet is not just the let them eat cake line. It's about all the other things that she gets accused of, of perversions, sexual orgies, plotting massacres, incest, corruption. And part of that must be to do with her gender, isn't it, Afra?
- [03:10]
Afwa Hirsch
Oh, absolutely. She was blamed for everything. And I think that she, on one level, is the personification of how women become the skate goats. But I'm really curious Peter, as a historian, when a woman, or any figure I suppose, is so demonized during their own lifetime with propaganda and fake news, does it make it harder to later really separate facts and fiction and work out because there's so much contemporaneous untruth about her as well as contemporaneous documentation that I'm sure is useful for understanding what was going on in France. So how do you separate the two?
- [03:46]
Peter Frankenpen
It might not be impossible, afwa, to take all your points about the demonisation of women that sometimes you do have people who are out of touch and corrupt and behave in ways that antagonize maybe she was a difficult, over privileged woman who did help inspire and provide a lightning rod for all sorts of other grievances. That's why it's, I think gonna be so important to try to tease out some of the facts away from the salacious fiction and to tell the full story.
- [04:17]
Afwa Hirsch
Marie Antoinette was born on 2nd of November 1755, the 15th child. Pause for emphasis.
- [04:24]
Peter Frankenpen
That's a few.
- [04:25]
Afwa Hirsch
Her mother had 15 children, Empress of the Holy Roman Empire and the Emperor Francis Stephen, and she was baptized as Maria Antonia Josepha Joanna and becomes known as Antoine among the family. And I think her childhood, Peter, is really key for me in the empathy in her story.
- [04:45]
Peter Frankenpen
A lot is about the way in which, in an imperial family like the Habsburgs, what the purpose of your life is. The purpose of your life is to be a political pawn, to be married off to somebody who can enhance your family's power or who can protect your family from being attacked. And at this time in European history, decisions around politics, around wars, around economic growth are basically being played out in a lot of places by activities in bedchambers.
- [05:12]
Afwa Hirsch
And that for me is a really important factor in understanding her because as a daughter and she was the 10th Archduchess, she was immediately currency for the potential for a political marriage that could, as you said, shore up the empire. And there's something about being raised to be a pawn in that way. There's something very callous about it. I mean, for example, when one of her older sisters dies, another sister is shoehorned into the marriage that she was going to have. There's no emotion around these unions. And her mother is an absolutely consummate deal maker. There are lots of stories about her mother signing off papers from her delivery bed just after having given birth. And I think it's important to understand the incredible privilege of being a princess in this realm at the same time as realizing you have no agency over Your life, your destiny, is completely in the hands of others.
- [06:05]
Peter Frankenpen
I think you've got some agency, right? I think you've got more agency than other women in your peer group, because you are in the heart of the corridors of power. And if you are married off to one of the most powerful men in the world, then you have got status, power, privilege and reach. You mentioned Maria Theresa, Marie Antoinette's mother. She's an empress because she's the eldest child and is a daughter, and the Habsburg line has to go through her. And in fact, the family changed their name to become Habsburg Lorraine because of the Duke of Lorraine, who Maria Theresa marries. So she. She has a mother who's active, who's wielding power, and does it for a long period of time and with great success. A lot depends on who you marry, what their character is, and whether you have a proper relationship with them, or whether you're just a pawn in a game. And that, I think, is the difference.
- [06:52]
Afwa Hirsch
And crucially, whether you are able to conceive and produce heirs.
- [06:56]
Peter Frankenpen
Correct.
- [06:57]
Afwa Hirsch
And that, for me, is the thing that for all of us now is uncomfortable, the idea that your security, your future, your destiny, all rests on basically the status of your womb. But the Austrian court is not a terrible place to grow up. As you said, it lacks the formality of some of the other European courts. And she's got all of these siblings, some of whom she's very close to, especially sisters. And it's a beautiful environment, a large hunting lodge in the forest outside the city. She skates and sledges in the winter. Her mother is not a cruel woman, a little distant. And she has a happy childhood and looks back very fondly at her time growing up in the Austrian court. In spite of all that privilege, there's not necessarily an amazing quality of education that goes on. She's not particularly enthusiastic about academic learning, and she has a governess who seems more or less wrapped around her little finger. So her education suffers as a result. She's not a great reader, she's not.
- [07:56]
Peter Frankenpen
A great writer, but she picks up languages like Italian. She's a talented musician. So from as young as the age of four, she's just performing in front of the court, having to stand upright, receive visitors. But she's also being reminded always, that she needs to know her place. She has to be obedient and to stay in line. And that's something that one young visitor to the palace doesn't really sign up to.
- [08:21]
Afwa Hirsch
October 13, 1762 Schonbrunn Palace, Vienna in the white and gold Ballroom archduchess Maria Antonia squirms in her tight silk bodice and stifles a yawn. On stage, a young boy in a powdered wig is giving a Harpsichord recital at 7. Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart is only a few months younger than she is, but his precocious musical talent has her family in raptures. As his little fingers dance across the keys, Maria Antonia lets her mind wander. Tilting her head back, she takes in the lavish frescoes painted on the ceiling. In one, her mother sits on a throne of clouds surrounded by cherubs.
- [09:05]
Peter Frankenpen
Psst.
- [09:06]
Afwa Hirsch
Her older sister, Maria Christina is scowling at her, nodding at the stage, implying she must pay attention. She's never far from disapproving eyes. Sometimes she feels like the only person who doesn't notice her is the Empress. After the concert, the family gathers around the little performer. Maria Antonia sees him giggle and bow. Then, to her horror, he leaps into her mother's arms. There's a collective gasp. Seeing the Empress's startled expression, panic flashes across the face of the boy's father, Leopold. Then Maria Theresa chuckles. Such a spirited boy. And everyone exhales. Little Mozart is cajoled into playing another piece. As she watches from the sidelines, Maria Antonia realizes that everything, the recital, the works of art, even her siblings petty rivalries are all about the same thing. Winning the Empress's approval. Creeping out of the room, she feels a pang of shame at her own desire for it. But she pushes it aside. Now she'll go into the palace gardens to play with her darling dog. Mops away from prying eyes, she breaks into a skit. Maybe being invisible isn't such a bad thing after all.
- [10:33]
Peter Frankenpen
Love a bit of Mozart.
- [10:34]
Afwa Hirsch
Just casually. Having Mozart hanging around giving evening recitals is quite a vibe.
- [10:40]
Peter Frankenpen
But he is allowed to get away with it. He gets to have a spirited character who is a genius. That helps. But Mira Theresa has to perform and behave in a different kind of way. She later says about her mother, I love the Empress, but I am frightened of her. Even at a distance when I'm writing to her, I never feel completely at ease.
- [10:57]
Afwa Hirsch
I think that scene really just captures the complexity of the human characters involved. You know, Maria Theresa is formidable and notoriously strict, but there is a human side to her as she shows towards little Mozart when he breaks the rules of protocol and gives her a hug. And also towards her daughter. I mean, even though Antoinette feels that she doesn't necessarily get the affection she would like and they're all competing for their mother's attention, Maria Theresa has A soft spot for her youngest daughter and calls her as Sweet Antoinette.
- [11:30]
Peter Frankenpen
But Sweet Antoinette is still part of her mother's hard nosed plans. Except those plans are about to be torn up and Marie Antoinette's future about to be radically altered by a sudden and brutal twist of fate. So it's quite hard to overestimate just how important and powerful Maria Theresa is. As the Empress of the Holy Roman Empire, one of the things that she wants to do is to marry off all of her children into Europe's key ruling families. The King of Naples, the Duke of Saxony, King of Spain, and perhaps number one target, the Kingdom of France and the heir, the Dauphin. So those dynastic ties mean that almost the more children you have, the more opportunities you have to play the game of diplomatic chess.
- [12:34]
Afwa Hirsch
By 1767, Marie Antoinette is 12, with four sisters ahead of her in their mother's wedding plans. And then fate intervenes in the form of disease. Peter?
- [12:47]
Peter Frankenpen
Yeah, smallpox. It's very common in the 18th century and it's often a killer. So one of Marie Antoinette's sisters, Josepha, gets it and dies. Then Elizabeth, the oldest of the unmarried sisters, becomes infected. And although she survives, she's so badly scarred that she's no longer considered fit to be married off to a leading foreign royal. And in fact, she never gets married.
- [13:09]
Afwa Hirsch
And that's because smallpox can leave your skin really badly pockmarked. It's really awful to think that could destroy your marriage chances even in such a strategic marriage game as this.
- [13:19]
Peter Frankenpen
I mean, it's brutal.
- [13:20]
Afwa Hirsch
And the next in line to Marie Antoinette is 14 year old Charlotte. So she's now lined up for the Kingdom of Naples in Sicily, which makes up around half of what will later become modern Italy. And that leaves Marie Antoinette just reiterating at this stage, she is still just 12, but that doesn't stand in the way of ambitious marriage plans.
- [13:41]
Peter Frankenpen
As for Marie Antoinette, she gets the big one, the grand croissant. She's going to be married after the dauphin, the grandson of Louis XV and heir to the throne of France. And that's an alliance that is not just wanted by Louis and Maria Theresa. That is a proper fundamental realignment of the European dynastic chessboard. So it's a real big one for Austria, it's a real big one for Maria Therese, and it's a real big one for Marie Antoinette.
- [14:08]
Afwa Hirsch
So there's nothing romantic about the plans for this wedding or actually how it's carried out, because the initial wedding doesn't actually even involve the bride and groom being Together, it's a zoom wedding. It's an 18th century equivalent to wedding on the 19th of April 1776pm Marie Antoinette stands before the altar in the Augustinian church in Vienna for her wedding to Louis, the Dauphin of France, who is hundreds of miles away in France. So next to her at the altar is her brother, Archduke Ferdinand. So this is little bit weird to.
- [14:43]
Peter Frankenpen
Marry your brother in a church who's pretending to be your future husband who you never met. It does happen, these kind of proxy weddings, partly because, as with Henry VIII and Anne of Cleese, if you turn up and you don't look like the miniature portrait, you could have a slight huff. If you're the King of England, for example, Henry wasn't very impressed. But it's to make sure that the marriage goes ahead. You don't allow people to take a view on whether they like the look of their potential bride or groom. It's not the most romantic way of thinking you're going to spend the rest of your life when you're making vows to God about honoring and loving and so on, why do it in a church at all? But there is a logic, I think of the state is bigger than the person and is bigger than the family.
- [15:24]
Afwa Hirsch
But in spite of that, it's not that looks don't matter. In fact, one of the things that I found most interesting to learn about this story is that Marie Antoinette got braces on her teeth in preparation for this marriage. To improve her appearance, a hairdresser is sent from France to make sure she's coiffed in the French style. And perhaps less importantly, a French tutor is sent so that she can start improving her spoken French. And her portrait of this made over improved Marie Antoinette is then sent to France to appeal to the dauphin.
- [15:57]
Peter Frankenpen
And lots of negotiations in the background around the size of her trousseau or her dowry. So about 400,000 livres, which is about three quarters of a million pounds today, that's being thrashed out without her being involved. And then the buildup to her departure, there's a series of events, including a ball for 4,000 people where everybody's desperate to take a look at her. You know, how does her hair look? Does she have new fashion sense? And her mother then gives her a long list of things that she should or shouldn't do. And those aren't the kinds of things that a mother might give to a daughter who's moving away from home or has gone off to get married, but it's who she can, who she can't write to. You've got to ditch your curiosity, says Mara Theresa. You've got to play the role of being the person everyone wants you to be. And you mustn't do anything to attract scandals. That's quite a tough shopping list.
- [16:46]
Afwa Hirsch
And it's a specific job. She's got to be the quiet, likable wife. But the whole point of this marriage is that she is also there to represent Austrian interests, to be somebody within the court who is personifying this union between France and Austria. So it's a kind of weird mix of be seen and not heard, but also help with this grand ambition of strategic alliance behind the scenes and also those alliances.
- [17:14]
Peter Frankenpen
It all sounds straightforward, that if your daughter or your cousin is married to somebody important, that their armies won't attack you. But that's not a guarantee. In this world of long term alliances, fortunes can ebb and flow. So there's a degree to which you've got to just get off the start line. You've got to get the first bit of your job done. And so picking somebody when they're really young, you're highly vulnerable emotionally, physically, et cetera, but also politically. Once you can get through 10 years of marriage, producing children, then perhaps you do start to have a bit more ability to control your destiny, choose the people you have around you and play the game in a different kind of way.
- [17:49]
Afwa Hirsch
She was a 12 year old girl when the marriage deal was done. She's now 14 as she leaves the home she's known her whole life and goes to this strange country, this strange court, to be this wife and hopefully the person who delivers the future heirs. And there are also some objective facts about the reality of being a 14 year old girl. No matter how you've been socially conditioned, no matter how you've been raised to understand your responsibilities, a 14 year old girl is not yet fully physically developed, definitely not emotionally or socially developed, is still a child, whether or not they would have called it that at the time. And I think it is sometimes hard to just make sense of how somebody that young could really live up to all of those sometimes competing expectations.
- [18:35]
Peter Frankenpen
Yeah, but it's like putting a teenager on a space mission. So at 9am on the 21st of April, 1770, it's a cold spring morning. Marie Antoinette, who's now officially Madame la Dauphine, departs Vienna and she's never going to see Austria again, she's never going to see Vienna again. And in fact, she's never gonna see her mother again. Even her mother, the mighty Maria Theresa breaks down and cries. That's a rare chink in her armour.
- [19:02]
Afwa Hirsch
It is. And this is what her mother writes. Farewell, my dearest child. A distance will separate us, do so much good to the French people that they can say, I have sent them an angel. That's Maria Theresa's parting letter to Marie Antoinette. And it just really goes to the root of the strangeness of bearing all these, carrying them, loving them, nurturing them, in order to be able to farm them out, to do the bidding of your dynasty, but in ways that you may never actually get to see them again in your lifetime. Marie Antoinette is traveling in major style. So she's in a velvet and gold carriage, part of a convoy of 57 carriages with 132 people in her retinue, including mandatory hairdresser.
- [19:50]
Peter Frankenpen
Only one.
- [19:51]
Afwa Hirsch
Only one. I feel like a Kardashian would actually have several. In her defense, there are crowds at every turn, every town and village across the route, all turning out to see this historic journey.
- [20:04]
Peter Frankenpen
And from now until the end of her life, Marie Antoinette is going to be the focus of attention everywhere she goes. 6th of May 1770. An island in the middle of the Rhine between Kehl and Strasbourg. On unsteady legs, Maria Antonia gets down from the carriage and breathes in the fresh air. Since leaving Vienna two and a half weeks ago, she has spent nearly nine hours a day in its cramped interior. On the far shore, she can see France, her new homeland. In front of her, the ornate cabin built especially for her meeting with the French delegation. As she walks towards it, a middle aged man meets her and introduces himself as the Compte de Noailles. Madame Dauphine, please grant me the exquisite pleasure of overseeing your delivery to our happy nation. Marie Antonia frowns. Her French isn't good. What does he mean, delivery? Inside the cabin, she enters a lavishly decorated room where ladies in waiting show her the latest French fashions. Embroidered shifts and petticoats, silk stockings and diamond buckle shoes. Seeing her confusion, the Comte explains, this room is Austria. Here you will discard all traces of your old life. There is a room on the other side that is France, where you will meet your new household. Then, in the space between rooms located precisely between our two great nations, are the handover documents. The Comte departs and Marie Antonia stands bewildered and shivering as the servants remove her clothes. Tears prick her eyes as she recalls her mother's emotional farewell. Through the small cabin window, she sees her entourage readying itself for the return journey to Vienna. Her heart sinks. There's no way back. She is alone in a world of unfamiliar language and customs and her only hope of salvation is a husband that she's never met.
- [22:23]
Afwa Hirsch
There's a bit of a culture clash right from the start, Peter, because the Comte de Noy hands Marie Antoinette over to his wife, the Comtesse de Noy, who'll be a big figure in her life because she's the mistress of the household, which is a huge privilege and power position at Versailles. And Marie Antoinette, coming from a slightly warmer and less formal court, throws her arms around the Comtesse in a friendly embrace, which is a breach of the rules of etiquette. So the Comtesse has to then make sure her husband gets the ceremonial embrace because he's higher in rank, so has to then reintroduce him. So you can imagine this 14 year old girl who's just been stripped naked, separated from everyone and everything she knows and loves, handed over symbolically into this new country and this new regime, trying to find human connection and warm embraces, realising that actually this new life is about protocol and order and the dignity of rank. And now all that's Left is a 250 mile journey to Paris. And last but definitely not least, meeting the man, he's actually a boy really, who will be her husband. And I guess this is as good a time as any, Peter, to talk about why this counts. Why is this marriage, this symbolic union between France and Austria, so important at this moment in history?
- [23:44]
Peter Frankenpen
Okay, so I need at least a four part legacy series on the Seven Years War, the diplomatic revolution, the war of Jenkins Ear. You couldn't make up how complicated this all is and also how much people can actually digest in one go. So in a series of of engagements in the 1750s onwards, you have for example, France being forced to hand over its possessions east of the Mississippi to Britain. It hands over islands in the Caribbean, it hands over some of its possessions in India. You have the Spanish being forced into surrendering Florida to the British. You've got the Dutch becoming more anti British having been their great allies. You've got the Austrians who have sided with Britain for a long time, being cornered by politics in London, who sees things glowing globally. The Austrians having to hand over possessions in Italy like Parma and Piacenza to the Spanish, that really annoys the Austrians. So in all of this sort of enormous 3D game of chess, eventually you see the Austrians trying to reset alliances of moving away from Britain and Prussia and towards the French. And the truth is both of them stand to gain if they can get that right. They're both Continental powers in Europe. They've both got wide territorial and military expectations and ambitions, but it's a big realignment of how the first part of the 18th century has looked. Is that short enough?
- [25:11]
Afwa Hirsch
Yeah, it's really digestible enough. It's really digestible. And also, what I love about your account, Peter, is that it centers something that lots of the histories I've read have conveniently glossed over in understanding the shifting map of Europe at this time. And that is how imperial, how global, how expansionist both France and Britain were at this time, and how much their possessions in the Caribbean, their competition over land in North America especially, were crucial to these new alliances, and also the economic and political future of these European nations. It's so important to understanding what's happening at this moment that Marie Antoinette's entering France, but it will also be such a crucial context for what happens during her experience in France and what happens to the entire royal family in France.
- [26:01]
Peter Frankenpen
And when you see it that way, the focus we have on two naive teenagers trying to smooth over generations to conflict and bitter rivalry puts them in quite a pressurized position. The expectations that how they get on, how they have sex, what kind of children, how many children they have and who they then marry is going to have global repercussions. It's crazy on the one hand, but it's considered completely normal in the 18th century.
- [26:25]
Afwa Hirsch
Is it also a pivotal point because it feels as if these royal families in Europe are behaving kind of the way they always have in trying to create alliances through marriage, to look at their rivals within Europe. But actually, the global picture is starting to change. The stakes are higher than they ever have been because of these incredibly lucrative possessions in the Caribbean and in India and in America. And actually, as we'll see as we go through the rest of the story with Marie Antoinette and Louis, it's not enough to just shore up your relationship with your rival or neighbouring power, because there is so much at play in the world, and it feels like they're a little bit behind in understanding the reality that they're in.
- [27:08]
Peter Frankenpen
It's just about money. That's really what it's all about. It all looks like on a PowerPoint presentation, that colonization and land areas. But, you know, there are discussions exactly this time about whether the single island of Guadeloupe or Martinique should be swapped for French possessions of Canada. Huge deals being done, and it's all to do with how lucrative provinces and regions are. And it's constantly on the move. So the horse trading of who wants which piece and who's forced to give up which city or which island or which possessions. Here and there are all expressions of power and of course, as we've spoken about before, legacy, they're also expressions of entitlement. The idea that you have the right to be able to decide who gets what. And if I don't like the French, I'm going to force them to hand over Louisiana to my rivals or to their rivals, or to hand over to me. All of that, I think, is all played out through the prism of teenagers far from home, carrying the hopes of great courts. And those hopes of an empress in Austria and a king in France are resting on two pairs of very narrow shoulders.
- [28:29]
Afwa Hirsch
The marriage proper takes place on 16 May 1770 at Versailles, the greatest palace in Europe, the home of the grandest court in Europe.
- [28:40]
Peter Frankenpen
All eyes are on the 14 year old Marie Antoinette. Every detail poured over judgments being made at first glance. Around 6,000 people crowding just to watch her arrive. Although she's had her marriage already done by proxy, this is the real thing. It's her wedding day and Marie Antoinette arrives in a vast white hooped dress. And one onlooker thinks that she barely looks above the age of 12.
- [29:03]
Afwa Hirsch
She has at least met her husband to be the day before. What do you think she would have made of him?
- [29:09]
Peter Frankenpen
So first she meets Louis XV. He's 60 at this time, but still has the presence of a king. He's described as the handsomest man at court, but next to him is standing he's a boy. Louis, Marie Antoinette's husband, is the grandson of Louis XV and is his heir.
- [29:25]
Afwa Hirsch
This is how Antonia Fraser describes him in her biography of Marie Antoinette. Here was a youth with heavy lidded eyes and thick dark eyebrows, looking generally awkward, or was it sulky? And although not 16 until August, already quite portly. In short, Louis Auguste was not quite the idealised figure of the portraits and the miniature that Marie Antoinette had received, which had tactfully and understandably trimmed his jawline and minimized his bulk. No fat shaming here. He's from a family that struggles a little bit with their weight, but he is not a particularly happy or confident person, I think it's fair to say.
- [30:04]
Peter Frankenpen
Well, he's 15. I'm quite a fan of the thick dark eyebrows, so I don't know why Antonio Frasers do that. And the heavily de eyes. Those are the come to bed or I'm tired look that is popular with some people because of what happens to him in his life. He doesn't get a great rap. It doesn't help that his father dies when he's a young boy, when he's 11, then his mother goes into a deep depression. She then dies 15 months later. He's the younger son, so he's not the one who's being groomed to inherit the throne. But then his elder brother died when Louis was 6, and in fact, that day that his brother dies, he's moved into his dead brother's apartment. So there's no sort of heirs and graces, but, you know, so he's, I think, hasn't got a great hand of cards in one way, but he's going to become a king of France in another, and I'd probably take that trade.
- [30:49]
Afwa Hirsch
He's probably more awkward and reserved by comparison because he's next to the king, who is the complete opposite. His grandfather, a very brilliant character, pretty sexually liberated. His mistress, Madame du Barry, is a powerful figure at court, and Marie Antoinette is actually pretty shocked by their relationship. I mean, they flagrantly carry on together, and he's given her some official title. And there's nothing so public in extramarital affairs or adultery that's visible in the Austrian court.
- [31:23]
Peter Frankenpen
But it's a pretty good signal of what's allowed to go in Versailles in France. It might shock her, but that also sets the pathway for what she might be able to expect when she's queen or when her husband becomes king. And I think it's a question of how do you learn from people who've been in that role before.
- [31:39]
Afwa Hirsch
I don't know if you've seen, Peter, the 2006 Sofia Coppola film Marie Antoinette.
- [31:44]
Peter Frankenpen
Oh, it's fantastic.
- [31:44]
Afwa Hirsch
It's glorious. Kirsten Dunst plays the eponymous Queen of France, and it's obviously a Hollywood treatment with a lot of creative license, a lot of contemporary music, casting her as a bit of a kind of 2006 it girl. But there are a lot of pretty accurate historic scenes that the film also recreates. And there's something about seeing them brought to life visually that really drives home the absurdity of life at Versailles. One thing it captures really well is the ludicrous nature of these teenagers being put to bed by this huge entourage of all these important aristocrats with all their privileges and rank.
- [32:24]
Peter Frankenpen
Go on, tell us about the bedding ceremony, because I like the sound of this.
- [32:26]
Afwa Hirsch
So the Archbishop of Reims blesses the nuptial bed. Louis XV then hands his grandson ceremonially his night shirt. The Duchesse de Chartres gives Marie Antoinette, her nightdress. Then each is helped into bed. Now that the couple are together in bed. The entourage, which includes more people than that. I don't know exactly how many are in the room, but there are some, maybe a dozen, maybe more. Officials, states, people, aristocrats surrounding this bed. And then they all retreat together so that the deed can now be done. It doesn't get less romantic or seductive or private or intimate than that.
- [33:08]
Peter Frankenpen
Perhaps, not surprisingly, nothing happens.
- [33:10]
Afwa Hirsch
I don't blame it.
- [33:11]
Peter Frankenpen
There's chatter the next day. And in fact, it takes a long time before the marriage is consummated. I think it's not just about the goldfish bowl. It's not just about lots of people by the door or helping you into bed. It's, you know, Louis is quite an awkward and clumsy boy. Doesn't have that much interest in her. And possibly not that much interest in girls. But I think that pressure of people wanting to know what you're up to. And wanting proof. It's pretty weird.
- [33:38]
Afwa Hirsch
It's not just Louis who's under scrutiny. There are officials whose job it is to inspect the bed linen and her underwear. Who report back on her menstrual cycle. I think it's interesting as well how they have been prepared for their conjugal expectations. Because you get the impression the emphasis is on the girl. Like what she's supposed to do and what's expected of her. I wonder whether anyone had actually ever explained to this awkward, sexually uninterested boy. What he was actually expected to do, what's involved. I feel like it wasn't an era where there was a great transparency about these things. There was no equivalent of sex education. And it would have all come down to some brother or uncle or friend at court. And then on top of the embarrassing bedding ritual. There's an even more ridiculous ritual for getting up the levee dressing. And this is also depicted really well in the Sofia Coppola film. And it's one of the scenes in that film that seems like it has to be fictionalized. Cause it's so absurd. Her bedclothes are removed. Her underwear for the day is laid out by the first lady of the bedchamber. But then the mistress of the household, the very formidable Comtesse de Noailles. Hands her underwear to Marie Antoinette. That's her special privilege. She has to take off a glove specially to hand her the underwear then. And this is a thing that actually happens one day. That really reveals the absurd nature of this regime. The Duchesse d'orleans comes into the room. Now she's a higher rank as a princess of the blood and takes precedence over the Comtesse de Neuy. So then she, she is given the chemise to give to Marie Antoinette. So she's taking her glove off so that she can hand it over. Marie Antoinette is naked and shivering, waiting for somebody to give her clothes because she's not allowed to dress herself. She's not even allowed to pick up anything herself. And then, unfortunately for this poor, cold, shivering naked teenage girl, an even more higher ranking royal then enters the room, the Comtesse de Provence. And so her gloves come off and she's given the chemise from the duchesse and the comtesse and is now allowed to dress Marie Antoinette. That's just one morning in her life. And you can just imagine it sounds nice having a retinue of staff and ladies in waiting doing everything for you. But if you're just standing there cold while they all observe protocol and probably not wanting everyone to see you naked first thing in the morning.
- [36:11]
Peter Frankenpen
And it's a game, right? This isn't being done because people are there to try to help or they love you. It's to try because they love you. They're trying to put you in your place and to humiliate and to show that although you may be the highest ranking of all, that there you go. But those rituals are very important in solidifying ideas about power and in trying to show that there is a hierarchy that needs to be observed. But everything in the household goes through like this. So not just how you get dressed, how you get changed, but at meal times too, where you can come and watch the royals eating. You can wander in and out of the palace, more or less. You're supposed to wear a sword if you're a man, but you can always borrow one if you've left yours behind. You can watch Marie Antoinette sipping on her soup and then going to watch Louis XV with his roast duck and his wine that he's throwing back. It's a kind of public museum where other people have tickets and you're one of the exhibits and you can fold under the pressure. But if you can work out how the game plays and you can start to outflank your rival, then there are ways in which you can bend the court to do your own will. And I think Marie Antoinette learns how to do that.
- [37:11]
Afwa Hirsch
There's no way you can live like that and learn that and be a balanced, grounded, normal person. It's just impossible.
- [37:19]
Peter Frankenpen
No, I think that's fair.
- [37:20]
Afwa Hirsch
And I think a balanced grounded, normal person would completely fall apart under the pressure and the constant scrutiny of that role. And that's the thing that seems unfair. You either sink or swim. If you sink, you're a failure, and if you swim, you're not a relatable person and you get attacked anyway.
- [37:38]
Peter Frankenpen
But having said that, in history, we're not really looking at grounded, normal people. The way in which history has been dominated by psychopaths, people who've been damaged, people who inflict terrible violence are people, but also who are capable of enormous compassion. Sometimes the same people who can do both.
- [37:53]
Afwa Hirsch
I think this is a great challenge for our listeners. If you can think of a normal, grounded person who yet left an incredible legacy and lived a really interesting life in history, let us know. Let us know, please let us know. That's the challenge. A person exist.
- [38:08]
Peter Frankenpen
All this time, young Louis and Marie Antoinette are waiting. And they are waiting for a destiny that they believe that God has given them.
- [38:19]
Afwa Hirsch
May 10, 1774. The palace of Versailles, France. In the Dauphin's dressing room, Marie Antoinette touches a burning taper to a candle, whispering prayers for the King's recovery under her breath. Smallpox, a disease that's devastated her own family, has left Louis XV's body blackened and swollen. She's heard rumors that the stench from his pustules has caused chambermaids to retch and faint. Candles lit, she crosses the room to sit beside her husband, who is slumped in his chair. Since his father died when he was a boy, the Dauphin's relationship with the King has been fractious. But the bond with his grandfather also runs deep. He looks up at her with tears in his eyes and says, your love and support is my only comfort. She feels a surge of tenderness towards her husband. While there are still problems in her marriage. Over her four years at Versailles, they've developed a bond. Now they can only wait, along with the crowd outside the palace, for the special candle burning in a window to be put out. The signal that the King is dead. She hears something a long way off. Thunder. She looks outside, but the sky is clear. The sound is getting louder, and with panic, she realizes it's coming from inside the palace. The Dauphin gets to his feet in alarm. She hears bells ringing and feels the floorboards shaking. Then the door bursts open and people swarm into the room. In the confusion, she searches for her husband, but can only find the Comtesse de Noailles, whose face is flushed as she drops into a deep curtsy. Your Majesty, the Queen. As ever, I am in your service. The Dauphin finally appears by her side. And as a ring forms around them, Marie Antoinette sinks to the floor, gripping her husband's hand. She calls out, dear God, guide us and protect us. We are too young to reign.
- [40:23]
Peter Frankenpen
Very dramatic. But it's destiny. You know, it was always going to happen. So you can listen to it and think, gosh, that sounds incredible, but that's in the plot already. We know that Marie Antoinette and her husband are going to take over the throne. They know it. It's just a question of when and timing. Watts, I think is strange is how not just how young they are, but you know, Marie Antoinette's been married for four years, but she hasn't had sex with her husband, let alone produced an heir. But suddenly, that level of protection, that level of scrutiny, all those old retainers who've been close to King Louis XV and have worked out how to play the system, suddenly there's a whole set of chess pieces. And we keep talking about chess. All those pieces are up in the air. And a lot will depend on how skillful Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette will be at protecting themselves from all those vested interests that are going to come and press them to position themselves.
- [41:13]
Afwa Hirsch
And there is no danger of Marie Antoinette forgetting what's at stake because among other pressures, she is receiving a stream of regular and hectoring letters from her mother, literally telling her that she's a failure because she hasn't consummated her marriage, she hasn't produced an heir. And on top of all that, she now faces the biggest challenge of her life, becoming Queen of France. That's next time on Legacy. Follow Legacy on the Wondery App, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge seasons early and ad free right now by joining Wonder plus in the Wonder App or on Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey@wondery.com survey from Wondering Goal Hanger. This is the first episode in our series about Marie Antoinette.
- [42:29]
Peter Frankenpen
A quick note about our dialogue. We can't know everything that was said or done behind closed doors, particularly when we go far back in history. But our scenes are written using the best available sources. So even if a scene or conversation has been recreated for dramatic effect, it's still based on biographical research.
- [42:47]
Afwa Hirsch
We've used many sources for this series, including Marie Antoinette, the Journey by Antonia Fraser, the French Revolution Daily Life by James M. Anderson, the palace of Versailles and Life in Revolutionary France, edited by Met Harder and Jennifer Ngere Hoyer. Legacy is hosted by me, Afwa Hirsch.
- [43:08]
Peter Frankenpen
And me, Peter Frankenpen.
- [43:10]
Afwa Hirsch
Scene writing by Jack McKay for Goal Hanger.
- [43:13]
Peter Frankenpen
Our series producers are Jane Morgan and Anoushka Lewis. Robin Scott Elliot is associate producer. Our production managers are Izzy Reid and Alex Hack Roberts. The executive producers are Tony Pastor and Jack Davenport.
- [43:27]
Afwa Hirsch
Legacy is sound engineered and designed by Alex Port Felix.
- [43:30]
Peter Frankenpen
Music supervision is Scott Velasquez for Frit? N Sink.
- [43:34]
Afwa Hirsch
Our producer for Wondery is Emanuela Quinarte Francis and our managing producer is Rachel Sibley.
- [43:39]
Peter Frankenpen
Executive producers for Wondery are Estelle Doyle, Chris Bournemouth, Morgan Jones and Marshall Louis.