Marilyn Monroe | Who Killed the Movie Star? | 4

Summary

Legacy Podcast Episode Summary: Marilyn Monroe | Who Killed the Movie Star? | Episode 4

Introduction

In Episode 4 of Legacy, hosted by Afua Hirsch and Peter Frankopan from Wondery, the focus shifts to the enigmatic life and untimely death of Marilyn Monroe. Titled "Who Killed the Movie Star?," this episode delves deep into the circumstances surrounding her death, the ensuing controversies, and the enduring legacy that continues to captivate the world more than six decades later.

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1. The Night of Marilyn Monroe’s Death

The episode opens by setting the scene on August 4, 1962, at Marilyn Monroe's Los Angeles home. Peter Frankopan narrates:

"It's 1962. The 36-year-old Marilyn Monroe is one of the greatest stars Hollywood has ever seen... but she has her demons."

Monroe, beloved globally, grappled with stage fright, emotional insecurity, and a growing dependence on drugs and alcohol. Her third marriage had just ended, yet her career appeared to be ascending, with promising projects like "Something's Got to Give" on the horizon.

Key Moment:

[00:46] Afwahash highlights the bright trajectory of Monroe's career, juxtaposed with her personal struggles.

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2. The Circumstances of Her Death

At 3:30 AM, Monroe's housekeeper, Eunice Murray, discovers Monroe unresponsive in her bedroom. Murray's attempts to awaken her lead to the discovery of multiple empty pill bottles, suggesting an overdose.

Official Cause of Death: Peter Frankopan summarizes the official findings:

"[...] an overdose of barbiturates. The coroner, Thomas T. Noguchi, circles suicide on the report, adding 'probable.'"

However, Afwahash points out discrepancies:

"Probable suicide is not a recognized mode of death. It's either suicide or undetermined."

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3. Controversies and Conspiracy Theories

Despite the official verdict pointing towards suicide, Monroe's death has been a fertile ground for conspiracy theories:

• Lack of a Suicide Note: Monroe left no note, and friends like Pat Newcombe assert she had plans and showed no signs of intending to end her life.

• Suspicious Autopsy Findings: Debate exists over whether the overdose was administered orally or via an enema, with some suggesting foul play.

• Missing Phone Records: Allegations that Monroe’s last phone calls, possibly to JFK, were destroyed or tampered with by the FBI to cover up connections to the Kennedys.

Notable Quote:

[07:46] Afwahash advises caution: "If you've heard or read someone saying they categorically can prove one theory over another, they're probably wrong because it's so unclear."

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4. Examination of Specific Conspiracy Theories

A. The Kennedy Connection

Monroe had connections with the Kennedy family, particularly Bobby Kennedy. Some theories suggest that political motivations tied to the Kennedys led to her death.

B. Role of Ralph Greenson, Her Psychiatrist

Greenson's relationship with Monroe was seen as unorthodox, sparking theories that he might have had a hand in her demise, either through malpractice or malicious intent.

C. Other Theories

• CIA Involvement: Speculations about Monroe being a target for political reasons.
• Mafia Connections: Ideas that the mob influenced her death to silence her.
• J. Edgar Hoover’s Influence: The powerful FBI director potentially orchestrating events behind the scenes.

Key Moment:

[20:52] Peter mentions: "Others have said that, well, maybe it was a hit by J. Edgar Hoover..."

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5. Reliability of Witness Testimonies

The credibility of Eunice Murray has been questioned over time. Initially, she was the primary witness to Monroe's state, but decades later, she altered her account, claiming that Bobby Kennedy had visited Monroe on the night of her death—a detail absent from earlier testimonies.

Critical Insight:

Murray's inconsistencies (e.g., noticing light through thick carpets) fuel skepticism about the official narrative.

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6. Marilyn Monroe’s Enduring Legacy

Marilyn Monroe's legacy transcends her tragic death, continuing to influence culture, fashion, and discussions about female empowerment.

A. Cultural Impact

Monroe remains a symbol of Hollywood's golden age, with her image perpetuated through art and media. The Andy Warhol portrait sold for $195 million in 2022, underlining her lasting influence.

B. Economic Value

Monroe's estate has remained lucrative, with licensing deals generating millions annually from products like lingerie and beauty accessories featuring her likeness.

C. Female Empowerment and Criticism

Monroe's assertiveness in negotiating her contracts and demanding fair compensation marked her as a trailblazer for women in Hollywood. However, some critics argue that her emphasis on sexuality reinforced patriarchal norms.

Notable Quote:

[29:04] Afwahash counters critiques: "If you are trapped in a system that requires you to sell your image and your sexuality, and then you are attacked for it... that's totally offensive."

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7. Final Reflections and Personal Insights

As the episode concludes, Afwahash and Frankopan reflect on Marilyn Monroe's complex persona—smart, misjudged, and troubled—highlighting the dichotomy between her public image and private struggles.

Key Takeaways:

• Monroe's death remains shrouded in mystery, with no definitive evidence supporting any single theory beyond the official ruling of probable suicide.

• Her legacy is a blend of cultural iconography and the ongoing debate about her role in Hollywood and society.

• The enduring fascination with Monroe underscores the powerful impact of celebrity and the perpetuation of her image long after her passing.

Closing Quote:

[30:44] Afwahash shares a personal reflection inspired by Monroe's words: "Please don't make me a joke. End the interview with what I believe. And that is the kind of the quest and the question to be taken seriously and to be listened to."

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Conclusion

Episode 4 of Legacy offers an exhaustive exploration of Marilyn Monroe's life, death, and the myriad theories that have emerged in the decades since. Through meticulous research and engaging dialogue, Afua Hirsch and Peter Frankopan provide listeners with a nuanced understanding of why Monroe remains an enigmatic figure whose legacy continues to spark intrigue and debate.

Listen to the full episode on the Wondery App or your preferred podcast platform to uncover more about Marilyn Monroe’s enduring legacy and the unanswered questions surrounding her death.

Transcript

[Afwahash]

Wondery subscribers can binge seasons of legacy early and ad free. Join Wondery plus in the Wonderry app or on Apple Podcasts. Before we start, a warning. This episode contains reference to suicide. Listener discretion is advised. Wonder.

[Peter Frankopan]

It'S 1962 the 36 year old Marilyn Monroe is one of the greatest stars Hollywood has ever seen. She's loved and adored by fans not just in the United States, but around the world. But she has her demons, struggles with stage fright, emotional insecurity, and increasingly, dependency on drugs and alcohol. And to make matters worse, her third marriage has just ended, but her career.

[Afwahash]

Is looking brighter than ever. The negotiations on her current film, Something's Got to Give have turned around. There are big magazine spreads about her plan, but all those future plans are never going to arrive.

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[Peter Frankopan]

From Wondery and Goal Hanger. I'm Peter Frankenpan.

[Afwahash]

I'm Afwahash.

[Peter Frankopan]

And this is Legacy, the show that tells the lives of the most extraordinary men and women ever to have lived and asks if they have the reputation that they deserve.

[Afwahash]

This is Marilyn Monroe. Episode 4 who Killed the Movie Star? Sunday 4th August 1962 It's 3:30 in the morning when housekeeper Eunice Murray notices the light still on in her employer's bedroom. She knows that Marilyn suffers from terrible insomnia and goes to check if she needs anything. Peering through a crack in the blackout curtains, Eunice notices Marilyn's body slumped unnaturally face down on the bed, naked. A prickle creeps up Eunice's back. Something isn't right. She's been asked to stay the night by Marilyn's psychiatrist, Dr. Greenson. He's concerned about her mental state. Now Eunice is concerned too. If Marilyn is asleep and she wakes her, she'll be furious. But if she isn't, she can see the white phone reserved for those closest to Marilyn beside the bed. So she finds the second pink phone to call Dr. Greenson, who tells her to knock Marilyn awake. Following doctor's orders, Eunice bangs loudly on the bedroom door. Nothing. Still on the line. Eunice can hear panic in Dr. Greenson's voice as he orders her to call Marilyn's physician, Dr. Engelberg. Ten minutes later, she lets Dr. Greenson in, handing him a poker. Eunice waits by the bedroom door for him to smash the bedroom window. Still, Marilyn doesn't wait when he opens the bedroom door to let her in. Eunice counts the empty pill bottles on Marilyn's bedside table. But there's no waking the slumbering star. Waiting for the police to arrive, Eunice starts doing the laundry.

[Peter Frankopan]

Marilyn Monroe was just 36 years old when she died from an overdose of barbiturates and other drugs at home on 4 August 1962. How does the news come through AFWA?

[Afwahash]

At 4:25am Marilyn's physician, Dr. Engelberg, rings the Central Los Angeles Police switchboard. The call's transferred to the West Angeles desk. I'm calling from the home of Marilyn Monroe, he says. She's dead. And then, sometime after 5am A young LA News Agency reporter, Joe Ramirez, takes a call from a contact in the coroner's office. He rushes to his office and puts it out on the newswires. Marilyn Monroe is dead at 7am it's flashed on the radio across the US and then becomes a front page news story around the world. Most papers taking the line fed to them by the police and local authorities. An overdose meant she'd probably taken her own life. So that kind of sounds like it should be the end of it, Peter. Except it very much is not the end of it.

[Peter Frankopan]

It's become a huge point of controversy, discussion, conspiracy theories for more than 60 years. Was it an accident? Was it murder? Was it suicide? Because the cause of death is unknown, there's an autopsy. The autopsy finds 8 milligrams of chloral hydrated, 4 1/2 milligrams of pentobarbital in her blood, and 13 milligrams of pentobarbinal in her liver, all indicating a huge overdose of barbiturates. The postmortem notes that she must have died between 8:30 and 10:30pm from acute barbiturate poisoning. And on the coroner's report, under the heading mode of Death, the coroner, Thomas T. Noguchi, circles suicide and then adds word in his own writing that says probable.

[Afwahash]

So probable suicide is not a mode of death. It's either suicide or it's undetermined, but there's no probable suicide. And that's one of the things that conspiracy theorists have really latched onto, that the coroner was expressing his skepticism as to whether it really was suicide, and her friends don't believe it is.

[Peter Frankopan]

Pat Newcombe, Marilyn's press agent and a friend, had been at Marilyn's house with her on the final day. And she spoke about how the fact that they'd made plans for the following day and others, too had talked about plans that Marilyn had made. And there's an insistence that there was no sign she was planning to end her life. There's no suicide note. And that's something that Lee Strasberg will stress in the eulogy that he gives at her funeral. But the media likes the suicide story. It's much easier to have a simple answer to things.

[Afwahash]

There are also other things that don't make a lot of sense. For example, some medical experts have insisted that that dose was too high to have been taken orally. But at the same time, there were no signs of injection on her body. And then the deputy district attorney would later say he believed an enema was administered by someone else, which led to her death. And this theory then gets linked to the question of why her housekeeper was Doing the laundry to clean up. Could that have been to eradicate evidence of an enema?

[Peter Frankopan]

But there's no real evidence supporting the enema theory. There are no residuals of capsules that you'd expect to find in the stomach. But then there are other doctors who disagree, saying yes, she could have taken this dose orally. And the fact that she and her body was so used to taking and digesting large amounts of pills means they could already have been digested. But that then gives rise to another theory that the autopsy couldn't answer. She could have been taking pills throughout the day and then taking a large amount of sleeping pills at bedtime. And that might have been fatal. So maybe it was self inflicted death by accident rather than by design.

[Afwahash]

Then there were the questions about her last phone calls because she had her white phone that she used for her most private phone calls by her bed where she was found. There's an allegation that the phone records of her last phone calls went missing. Some have claimed that the FBI took and destroyed the records of those last phone calls. The, the suggestion also including that one of those last phone calls could have been to JFK and that the reason for covering this up was that it may have implicated him. Again, we can't prove any of this. And I would say to anyone listening, if you've heard or read someone saying they categorically can prove one theory over another, they're probably wrong because it's so unclear. There has been scope for this much speculation over this many decades.

[Peter Frankopan]

Yeah, there's not just JFK then. There's a 1964 essay produced by a right wing writer called Frank Keppel, who publishes a pamphlet called the Strange Death of Marilyn Monroe in which she claims that Bobby Kennedy was involved in her death. And in fact on that occasion, we know the FBI were worried enough about the consequences of the publication that they warned Kennedy of its imminent appearance and then Kennedy had Capell's phone tapped. So there's a whole slew of conspiracy theories that are still swirling around today. Like you said, people are very convinced that they know the answer. But there are so many different potential explanations with not much evidence to support any of them. Why is there so much speculation, do you think?

[Afwahash]

I think suicide is always difficult. Of course, it's always difficult to compute how somebody who had to us so much to live for could have wanted to take their own life. That she had so much going for her, so much on the horizon, that it almost is just inconceivable that she would have chosen to die at that moment. And there are enough circumstantial questions, gaps in the evidence anomalies. It is easy to see why people have continued asking these questions.

[Peter Frankopan]

Go on, Afro, give me Detective Sergeant Hirsch. Pick a few holes in Eunice Murray's story for us.

[Afwahash]

Well, yeah, we create these scripted scenes for you in this podcast. And even choosing a scripted scene was contentious because whose version do we use to recreate what we imagine might have happened? So in this episode, we've based a lot of it on Eunice Murray, the housekeeper, and her evidence. But there are issues with Murray's version because, as she said, Marilyn had locked the doors. But apparently Marilyn hated locked doors, so that was a strange thing for her to have done. And she was an insomniac who used to keep her curtains pinned shut at night to keep out any light. So how come Murray could. She claimed to have done seen inside her bedroom. And Murray said when she awoke at midnight, she saw a light under the door. But then she was challenged over whether she could have seen a light, as supposedly the carpet was too thick to let out any light. And finally, why was she doing laundry when the police arrives? I mean, who. When their boss has just died, someone close to them has just died, immediately starts doing laundry before the police are even on the scene. I'm not saying I support any of the theories, but I can see why people are creating them because there is enough that doesn't completely add up to fuel those questions.

[Peter Frankopan]

Yeah. And particularly because Eunice Murray is herself slightly unreliable. So 20 years later, she claims that Bobby Kennedy had showed up at the house that night, and that's something we'll come to. But, you know, there are suggestions that Marilyn had decided to fire Eunice Murray on the day that she died. And, you know, does that make a difference not only to Murray's testimony, but also to what happened that night? But, I mean, what's interesting is what happens next. So the person who flies immediately drops everything to get there. Perhaps not surprising if you listen to the previous episodes, is it's Joe DiMaggio. He'd been playing in a charity baseball game in San Francisco, and he takes a flight to LA the next morning. And in fact, it's Joe DiMaggio who claims her body and begins to sort out the funeral.

[Afwahash]

DiMaggio, always loyal to her to the last, troubled as their marriage had been, wanted her to have an intimate, quiet funeral. He only invited 24 people, and they included Dr. Greenson, her psychiatrist, his family, who she'd remained close to, Liam Paula Strasberg, her mentors, members of her movie team, the makeup artist, hairdressers, Pat Newcomb, who was her PR advisor, close friend, and a handful of others. The story is that Frank Sinatra wanted to attend but was not allowed in.

[Peter Frankopan]

Elise Strasberg gives the eulogy at the funeral and says it's difficult to accept the fact that her zest for life has been ended by this dreadful accident, he calls it. Despite the heights and the brilliance she detained on the screen, this is really important. She was planning for the future. She was looking forward to participating in many exciting things. In her eyes and in mine, her career was just beginning. And I think that has given lots of suggestions, I think, to people who can see patterns and join the dots that something funny had happened.

[Afwahash]

Joe DiMaggio was inconsolable. He's said to have wept through the service and for years after her death, he had a pair of pink roses delivered to her crypto. When he died in 1999, his last words were said to be, I finally get to see Marilyn, which is really moving. More than 30 years after her death, he never stopped thinking about her and hoping for a reunion with her after death. That was over 60 years ago now, Peter. And yet these are events that I guarantee. If you look at other podcasts, look on YouTube, if you look at news reports, you will find stories offering new evidence, new theories, new details come to light, documents that are yet to be declassified but will be declassified, things that have showed up at auctions or in estate clearances. It never ends with this story.

[Peter Frankopan]

There are some of those podcasts that I've listened to I thought were great. Susie Kennedy does a fantastic one on Marilyn Monroe and it's amazing how I would don't want to call it an industry because that sounds cynical, but it's amazing how much attention and fascination there is with Marilyn Monroe given that there are starting to be fewer and fewer people who are alive at the same time as her. And yet her name, her legacy and her life is a source of huge fascination and still great speculation.

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[Afwahash]

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[Afwahash]

Okay, so there's two main schools of conspiracy theories I would say worth talking about because there are so many disparate ideas out there. But the first one involves the Kennedys. And as is always the case with conspiracy theories, there's always a grain of truth or some kind of legitimate question that gives rise to them, and then they sometimes seem to spiral a bit out of control. But it's certainly true that Marilyn had a connection to Bobby Kennedy and to jfk, and that not that long before she died, those connections cooled off. And Bobby Kennedy, who she stayed close to for longer, was reportedly told by JFK that he should remove himself from the relationship with Marilyn, that it would be damaging for the Kennedy family. So that happened. How do we get from that to the allegation that the Kennedys may have been involved in her death?

[Peter Frankopan]

PETER well, there've been some versions of the story that Marilyn rang Peter Lawford that evening. He was a long term friend of hers, possibly a former lover, but he was also married to Pat, one of Kennedy sisters. And he said to her, are you coming to party? And she says no. And then she adds, say goodbye to Pat, say goodbye to Jack, and say goodbye to yourself because you're a nice guy. And those may have been her last words. And, you know, they have a sort of certain Marilyn ring to them. So one of the stories that then comes off that is that they alarmed Lawford enough to maybe either rank his lawyer, who ranked the psychiatrist who ran Eunice Murray, who checked under the door and said I think was, or that Peter Lawford himself went to Marilyn Monroe's house to check on her. Maybe Bobby Kennedy went with him, although he was in San Francisco that night, although that's not close to la, but it's not that far, by the way.

[Afwahash]

Checked the light under the door that you couldn't see under the door because the carpet was too thick to let out any light.

[Peter Frankopan]

So you're not buying this one?

[Afwahash]

I don't know. And the fact that Eunice Murray later changed her story, I mean, way later in the 1980s, to say that actually Bobby Kennedy had come to the house that night. Kind of a important detail to have forgotten at the time. I think, though, it's a bit of a leap to say there were some suspicious circumstances adjacent to the Kennedys, to saying that the Kennedys would have wanted to have her killed. That does seem a leap to me that no one's been able to substantiate.

[Peter Frankopan]

What about the theory involving the psychiatrist Ralph Greenson? Tell us a little bit about that one, that theory.

[Afwahash]

Well, there are some things we do know about that relationship. It was completely inappropriate. As far as conventional wisdom goes about doctor patient relations. There are meant to be really clear boundaries in patient relationships, especially with psychiatrists. And in the face of that, Marilyn stayed with Ralph Greenson and his family. When she moved back to la, she became friendly with his wife and children. They socialized together. He said he was crossing that professional boundary because she was desperately in need of help. It's hard to imagine a psychiatrist who has a patient who isn't in need of help. So I find that really hard to fathom. And he has been accused in at least one version of the theory of administering her with a fatal dose himself, whether by accident or on purpose. And the further end of the spectrum on that theory is that he was a communist spy and was actually charged with killing her for reasons that could have related to the Kennedys or the Cold War or some other connection. Again, I think it's true that that was a difficult and problematic relationship. Whether that is grounds to suspect him of killing his patient and his friend is definitely a leap to me.

[Peter Frankopan]

Well, some have claimed that he had conspired with her doctor to maintain Marilyn's addiction. Others say he was only interested in money, money, money. He wouldn't be the first communist spy to have done that. Then there are a whole bunch of other ideas about what might have happened. And those range from Marilyn Monroe being murdered either on behalf of the CIA to get back at the Kennedys for the Bay of Pigs fiasco, or maybe by Cubans to get back at Kennedy for the Bear pigs fiasco or by the mob to get back at the Kennedys or to silence her on behalf of Kennedy's. You name it. Others have said that, well, maybe it was a hit by J. Edgar Hoover, who we've spoken about before, I would.

[Afwahash]

Just say, because it's easy to be dismissive of these theories. But I'm just thinking back, Peter, to our episode on J. Edgar Hoover and also things I've read about what the CIA were up to in the Cold War. Sometimes things that seem incredibly far fetched, especially about the American government or security services, really do turn out to be true. It wasn't at all outside the realm of possibility that somebody, even a celebrity, and especially a woman, could be assassinated or murdered for political reasons. They were doing things like that in other countries all the time in this era. And J. Ed C.A. hoover was not afraid of interfering in very sinister ways in the lives of American citizens on American soil. So I don't think we should be too dismissive of the possibility that something like that could have been at work. It's just a question of whether anything can actually be proved. And attempts to find proof have never ended, have they? In 1982, the LAPD conducted a fresh inquiry into her death.

[Peter Frankopan]

That's right. And it found nothing new, and they stuck to the original verdict. And then a few years ago, 2020, there were news stories that came out saying that Greenson's papers are sealed in a UCLA archive and they could prove that she's murdered when they opened in 2039. But in any event, the point is that all of these things are possible and it's kind of take your pick of what you want to believe. In the absence of concrete evidence, the truth is that the appetite is there to read another book about her, to watch another movie. A couple came out in 2022 or hey, listen to another podcast about Marilyn Monroe. So that's, I guess, our real final, important question. Why did the legacy of Marilyn Monroe endure to this day? This episode is brought to you by Columbia Sportswear. From snowy trails to city streets, Columbia has you covered. Their Omni Heat Infinity jackets are the gold standard in warmth pushing the boundaries of innovation. Feel the difference as thermal reflective technology wraps you in warmth. Whether you're hiking mountains or conquering your daily grind. Visit Columbia.com to learn more.

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[Peter Frankopan]

So the power of Marilyn Monroe's look still persists today. You mentioned already AFWA about how at the Met Gala in 2022, Kim Kardashian had caused a sensation wearing the dress that Marilyn Monroe had worn when she signed to jfk. But her legacy has been incredibly lucrative, her image as well. Give us some numbers about how valuable Marilyn Monroe is today.

[Afwahash]

As always, it's so bittersweet because so much of the value is always created after someone like her has died and inevitably enriches other people. But Andy Warhol's 1964 portrait of Marilyn sold for $195 million in 2022. At the time, it was the most expensive work of American art ever sold. And again, I bet most people listening to this can visualize that portrait because it's so well known. And over the years, her image has been used to sell. Chanel Number five. Another story about that infamous nude photo shoot was that she said, what do you have on? And she'd said, chanel Number five Mercedes Absolut Vodka, which seems like an unfortunate marketing strategy for someone who suffered from addiction. 75% of her estate when she died went to Lee and Paula Strasberg and ultimately to Lee's second wife, anna. And in 2010, Anna Strasberg renewed the licensing deal for between 20 and 30 million dollars and earned 10 million dollars in 2023 alone, according to Forbes, from, among other things, a line of lingerie, false lashes and press on nails marketed with Marilyn's image. As I said, whenever I'm in la, I notice how omnipresent her image still is in Hollywood. It's become possibly the most recognizable marketing tool for the whole Hollywood as a town, as a tourist destination, as the center of the movie industry. It really seems to capture what people think of when they imagine that whole golden era of movies If Marilyn Monroe was still alive, Peter, she would be the same age now as the late Queen Elizabeth ii. Which is incredible to imagine because obviously we remember the Queen growing old, but Marilyn Monroe is preserved forever in her mid-30s. And Gloria Steinem in Marilyn Norma Jean wrote, would Marilyn Monroe have become the serious actress she aspired to be? Could she have survived the transition from sex goddess to mortal woman that aging would impose? That really resonates for me because actually one thing we haven't talked about is the terror of aging that stalked Marilyn Monroe. How much anxiety she had. She knew that as a woman in the public eye, youth and beauty are perceived as inseparable. And that as she aged, that value that was attached to physical beauty would diminish. Because as a society and especially Hollywood, older women are not considered as desirable and not considered as beautiful. The prospect of that slipping away must have been truly terrifying for her. And I do wonder if it's no coincidence that she didn't ever allow herself to grow old.

[Peter Frankopan]

One of the things we've talked about a bit in this series has been about Marilyn Monroe as a hard nosed businesswoman, renegotiating contracts for herself, making sure that she got what was due rather than being pushed around. But what Marilyn Monroe did by constantly pushing to get what she wanted on her terms, that was revolutionary at the time. And I hadn't kind of realized how important she was as a trailblazer for things that today are still not solved, like equal pay or the ways in which even women in different films got paid the different amounts. So in Gentlemen Prefer Blondes, where Marilyn is billed alongside Jane Russell, Jane Russell was being paid around 10 times what Marilyn Monroe got paid. So I think standing up for your work and for your art and for your craft and demanding to be paid what's fair. What's interesting is that Fox and the studios folded again and again and again when somebody stood up to them. And I guess she leaves an important legacy like that for glass ceilings that are still there. But she smashed through some of them. But it's a tricky one. The question about whether we can look at Marilyn Monroe as a figurehead for female empowerment, because some commentators take a different view, saying that she pushed the sexual revolution backwards because of her looks and the emphasis on sexuality. How is you read that afwa?

[Afwahash]

I read that as a woman not being able to win, if she hadn't known how to work her looks to her advantage, she would never have had a career. To be someone who influenced anyone or have us talking about her all these years Later. And yet, as a woman, when you do use your looks as an asset, you're criticized for holding other women back and feeding into the patriarchy. What can you do? You are trapped in a system that requires you to sell your image and your sexuality. And then when you do that, you're attacked for it. And I think that paradigm is totally unchanged. I think Marilyn Monroe would recognize what women are dealing with now. And I think the idea that you can blame her for that is completely offensive.

[Peter Frankopan]

One of the things that when you read about Marilyn Monroe in her own words, or reported words, I should say in the final article in Life magazine, she speaks to a journalist and asks them to finish the piece with what I really want to say. This is Marilyn's words, that what the world really needs is a real feeling of kinship. We're all brothers. Please don't make me a joke. End the interview with what I believe. And that is the kind of the quest and the question to be taken seriously and to be listened to. And I guess no one's going to be surprised to know that her request is ignored and in fact, how it ends. It says, fame will go by and so long I've had you Fame if it goes by. I've always known it was fickle, so at least it's something I experienced. But it's not where I live.

[Afwahash]

It's that time. Peter. Three words. You go first. Mine needs a little explanation.

[Peter Frankopan]

So my three words, I'm gonna go for smart, misjudged, troubled.

[Afwahash]

Ooh, spot on. I love how you didn't include beautiful. I feel like she would have appreciated that.

[Peter Frankopan]

Come on, let's have yours.

[Afwahash]

So mine comes from something she said, and it's really stayed with me. And for me, it summarizes her whole relationship with her identity and her image and her stardom. So apparently one time she was sitting, she often did, completely nude, drinking champagne, looking at herself in the mirror, and she was supposed to be somewhere else, and someone came in and said, what are you doing? You know, you're late. Why are you just sitting there? What are you doing? And she said, looking at her. And I love that because to me, it captures what seems like vanity. She actually had this kind of cognitive dissonance, like she understood what she was as a symbol, as an icon, as a star, but it wasn't really who she was, but she kind of owned it. And so that quote, for me, sums up who Marilyn Monroe was. Next time, as our attention turns inevitably to America and US Election, we'll be looking back at the original superstar president, a prototype for liberal candidates from Clinton to Obama to Kamala Harris, John F. Kennedy. Follow Legacy on the Wondery app, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge seasons early and ad free right now by joining Wondery plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short [e-mail] survey from.

[Peter Frankopan]

Wondery and Goal Hanger this is the final episode in our series about Marilyn Monroe. A quick note about our dialogue we can't know everything that was said or done behind closed doors, particularly when we go far back in history. But our scenes are written using the best available sources, so even if a scene or conversation has been recreated for dramatic effect, it is still based on biographical research.

[Afwahash]

We've used many sources for this series, including Sarah Churchwell's Many Lives of Marilyn Monroe. Legacy is hosted by me. Afwahash I'd be Peter Frank Jacob Scene writing by Kirsty Smith For Goal Hanger.

[Peter Frankopan]

Our series producers are Kate Taylor and Leo Schick Robin Scott Elliott is associate producer. Our production managers are Izzy Reid and Alex Hack Roberts. The executive producers are Tony Pastor and Jack Davenport.

[Afwahash]

Legacy is sound engineered by Nathan Copeland.

[Peter Frankopan]

Our sound designer is Joe Richardson. Music supervision is Scott Velasquez for Frisk and Sync.

[Afwahash]

Our producer for Wondery is Emanuela Quinnotti Francis Francis and our managing producer is Rachel Sibley.

[Peter Frankopan]

Executive producers for Wondery are Estelle Doyle, Chris Bourne, Morgan Jones and Marshall Louis.