Rasputin | How Rumour Broke an Empire | Feat. Sir Antony Beevor

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Legacy

Episode: Rasputin | How Rumour Broke an Empire

Host: Original Legacy Productions
Date: May 14, 2026
Featuring: Sir Antony Beevor
Summary By: Podcast Summarizer

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Episode Overview

In this fascinating episode, hosts Afua Hirsch and Peter Frankopan sit down with renowned historian Sir Antony Beevor to delve into the enigmatic figure of Grigory Rasputin and his pivotal role in the collapse of the Romanov dynasty. The conversation, grounded in Beevor’s latest book Rasputin and the Downfall of the Romanovs, moves deftly between Rasputin’s Siberian roots, his rise to influence in Imperial Russia, and how rumor and scandal—potentially more powerful than reality itself—can precipitate the collapse of entire political systems. The episode not only explores the complexity of Rasputin’s character but also draws striking parallels to the political challenges and mythmaking of the modern era.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

Rasputin’s Roots and the Importance of Siberia

• The Siberian Difference [02:15]
  Sir Antony Beevor emphasizes how Rasputin’s Siberian origin made him fundamentally different from Russian peasants of the central regions. Siberians, he notes, were more independent and self-assured, with a spiritual outlook deeply connected to animist traditions:

  “Siberians were very much more independent and I think self confident than the average Russian mushik. ... The very spirituality which he certainly had... was, I think, part of the Siberian character.” [02:15]

• Spiritual Contrasts with the West [03:30-06:43]
  Rasputin’s mysticism fit within a broader Russian tendency toward spirituality and holy fools, which contrasted sharply with the more rationalist and secular cultures of Western Europe.

  “The holy fool was not just a jester at the court... somehow God could speak to you through very unlikely sources.” [05:08]

Russia’s Spirituality and its Lasting Impact

• Spiritual Affinity and Pseudo-National Myths
  Beevor highlights the paradox at the heart of Russia’s self-conception—torn between European and Asian identities and deeply invested in myths of spiritual affinity with the land.

• Modern Echoes [08:02]
  When asked about Putin’s posturing in the wilderness, Beevor notes continuity in projecting ancient spiritual ties, even as modernity supersedes the actual traditions.

  “That was entirely a show for the people hoping to play to the past as much as to the present and the future. ... It’s the ideology... the Whites developed after their defeat in the civil war.” [08:16]

Rasputin’s Ascent: From Pilgrim to Power-Broker

• Holy Pilgrim to Imperial Confidant [09:36]
  Rasputin's rise was facilitated by his charisma, spiritual reputation, and strategic introductions, culminating in his rapid acceptance at the very top of Russian society:

  “By November 1905, he is introduced to the Tsar and the Empress... through the voice, which I think was his most powerful and effective medium... He charmed the imperial couple. And this was the start of the relationship.” [09:36]

Charisma and Controversy

• Rasputin’s Seductive Power [11:41]
  Rasputin’s personality—a mix of deep spirituality and extreme lasciviousness—was both his gift and downfall. His methods were as much about empathy (especially toward St. Petersburg’s women) as they were about spectacle.

  “He was very tactile and had to touch people the whole time, not necessarily for sexual reasons, but that quite often was part of it. ... It’s striking the way that men reacted against him, while on the whole, women tended to be fascinated.” [11:41]

The Tsarina’s Relationship and the Power of Rumor

• Between Maternal Desperation and Mythmaking [13:59–17:03]
  The Empress’s faith in Rasputin was driven by maternal desperation to save her haemophiliac son and by Rasputin’s aura. Beevor robustly disputes rumors of sexual impropriety, emphasizing the devastating power of “fake news” in undermining the Tsar:

  “There was this letter which she had written to him... saying that she longed to fall asleep forever on his shoulder, meant that people started to believe that the Tsar himself was a cuckold. ... In a patriarchal society like Russia, this totally undermined his authority.” [14:32]

• Historical Consensus on Scandal [17:03]

  "I think that one can, I think, be absolutely certain... there is no question of him ever having molested the daughters. ... It was the way that rumors... convinced virtually everybody that there must be something going on." [17:03]

Rasputin as Symbol of a System in Ruins

• Spirituality, Cynicism, and Complexity [19:30–21:27]
  Beevor makes clear Rasputin was a paradox, combining sincere spirituality with fraudulence:

  “He was deeply spiritual, but... also completely lascivious... you cannot categorize him in one way, either as pure charlatan or as... pure spiritual purity. He is this extraordinary mixture.” [20:00]

• Tsar Nicholas II: Weakness and Tragedy [21:52]
  Nicholas is painted as kindly but weak: “He was also a complete moral coward... he was just not born to be a ruler...” His and the Empress's poor judgment enabled Rasputin's influence. [21:52]

The War, Decline, and Rasputin’s Role

• The Snowballing Catastrophe [23:45]
  Rasputin’s influence grew as the war got worse and as the Tsar departed to the front, leaving Rasputin and the Empress to wield disproportionate power in appointments.

  “His power actually had increased exponentially in 1911, when the tsarevich was closest to death... the Empress is convinced that he really is a saint and God works through him.” [24:08]

• A Misguided Political Actor [26:53]
  Despite moments of accurate perception, Rasputin’s interventions (notably in ministerial appointments and the prohibition of vodka) compounded Russia’s crises:

  “No, he's not politically perceptive. In fact, he's disastrous in that particular way...He is so determined that the Tsar should not be influenced by any democratic ideas...” [27:22]

Rasputin’s Infamous Assassination

• Myth vs. Reality [29:10]
  The plot to kill Rasputin was, according to Beevor, a shambolic and almost comic disaster:

  “It's the worst black farce you can possibly imagine...For this party, they only have one record to play, which is Yankee Doodle Dandy. ...They also have poisoned sweetcakes...they'd forgotten that he didn’t like sweet things very much anyway.” [29:10]

  Rasputin survived cyanide, was shot, escaped, and was shot again:

  “They thought he'd killed him and then suddenly they found he was crawling outside into the courtyard and so they had to come after him and...shoot him down...” [30:57]

The Broader Collapse and Contemporary Parallels

• Rumor, Poor Governance, and Downfall [32:08–33:01]
  Beevor links the empire’s fall to a lethal combination of rumor, indecision, and an inability to confront reality:

  “This led to the whole pattern of conflict of the 20th century...without Rasputin there would have been no Lenin.” [33:01]

• Putin and the Shadow of History [34:25–36:34]
  Comparing today’s Russia, Beevor contends that Putin venerates the Russian Empire over its Soviet legacy, drawing on ancient myth and imperial iconography.

  “His real interest, of course, is in the Russian Empire...there aren’t any hammers and sickles in the Kremlin. It’s all statues of czars.” [34:43]

  On historical parallels, Beevor is cautious:

  “As a historian, one’s main job is actually fighting parallels, because I think they're always rather misleading, to put it mildly.” [36:34]

Unanswerable Questions and the ‘What Ifs’ of History

• Counterfactuals and Fascination [39:02–40:05]
  Beevor reflects on the seductive nature of alternate histories (what if Rasputin had not risen, or if Franz Ferdinand had died a different way?), but insists such speculation, while fascinating, is not a productive way to understand the past.

  “Can one actually follow through on the Kerensky idea that without Rasputin there would have been no Lenin? ... It is a fascinating exercise.” [39:02]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Rasputin’s Complexity

“You cannot categorize him in one way, either as pure charlatan or as...pure spiritual purity. He is this extraordinary mixture.”
— Sir Antony Beevor [20:00]

On the Power of Rumor

“It was the rumors, the fake news of the day, which convinced virtually everybody that there must be something going on...”
— Sir Antony Beevor [14:32]

On Modern Parallels

“His real interest, of course, is in the Russian Empire…there aren’t any hammers and sickles in the Kremlin. It’s all statues of czars…”
— Sir Antony Beevor [34:43]

On the Assassination

“They also have poisoned sweetcakes...they’d forgotten that he didn’t like sweet things...the sugar was going to reduce the effectiveness of the cyanide...You couldn’t make it up. It was so badly planned and carried out.”
— Sir Antony Beevor [29:10]

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Key Segment Timestamps

• 02:15 — Rasputin’s Siberian origins and spiritual formation
• 05:08 — The Russian tradition of holy fools
• 09:36 — Rasputin’s arrival at the imperial court
• 14:32 — The Empress's obsession, rumor's role in regime collapse
• 17:03 — Debunking rumors of Rasputin's impropriety with the royal family
• 21:52 — Tsar Nicholas II: profile in weakness
• 24:08 — Rasputin’s influence and “miraculous” alleviation of the Tsarevich’s suffering
• 27:22 — Rasputin’s political missteps and ministerial chaos
• 29:10–30:57 — The failed assassination, myth vs reality
• 33:01 — Beevor on the wider collapse of the Romanovs, resonance for the 20th century
• 34:43 — Putin’s imperial nostalgia and selective memory
• 36:34 — The dangers of drawing historical parallels

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Episode Tone & Takeaways

Using incisive historical analysis and wry humor, Sir Antony Beevor demystifies the legend of Rasputin, revealing him as a man of contradiction—part mystic, part manipulator. The discussion surfaces profound themes of the danger of rumor, the brittleness of autocracy, and how political systems become untethered from reality. Parallels to contemporary Russia are probed with nuance and caution, illustrating both the allure and the limits of historical analogy.

This episode is essential listening for anyone interested in how character, context, and rumor can change the course of history—and why some myths refuse to die.

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Transcript

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[Interviewer Peter]

Today's guest on Legacy is one of the world's most acclaimed historians and writers who books have shaped how millions understand war, revolution and the collapse of political systems. Sir Anthony Beaver is a friend of mine, but also the best selling author of works including Stalingrad, Berlin, the downfall, 1945, D Day, the Battle of Spain and Russia, Revolution and Civil War, 1917-1921. His books have been translated into dozens of languages, won major international prizes and has earned serenity a reputation for combining extraordinary archival research with with a novelist's eye for drama, atmosphere and character. In his new book, Rasputin and the Downfall of the Romanovs, Antony turns to one of the most infamous and misunderstood figures of modern history, Grigory Rasputin, the Siberian peasant, mystic, healer, charlatan, political operator and holy man whose name became synonymous with decadence, corruption and the final years of Imperial Russia before the revolution. But the book is not just a biography of Rasputin himself. It's also the story of a regime losing confidence, of a royal family isolated by war, by paranoia, and of how gossip, scandal and conspiracy can bring down one of Europe's oldest and greatest dynasties. At the heart lies a larger question that feels strikingly modern too, about what happens when political systems become detached from reality and when institutions stop functioning properly and when rumors become more powerful than truth. So thank you for joining us today on Legacy with Sir Anthony Beaver on Rasputin. Anthony, it's a joy to have you to come talk to us about Rasputin. We start the book in Siberia rather than in St. Petersburg. How important is it to understand where Rasputin comes from?

[Sir Anthony Beaver]

Rasputin, of course, being a Siberian is different, if you like, to a mujik from the main part of Russia because the Siberians were very much more independent and I think self confident than the average Russian mushik. So from that point of view, his character to a certain degree was formed. There's also Siberia had so much more in the way of sort of animist beliefs. So the very spirituality which he certainly had, along with many other contradictions was, I think, part of the Siberian character more than, if you like, the central Russian character.

[Interviewer Peter]

I mean, you've written lots about Russia post revolution as well. I mean, what about that balance and the difference between the metropolitan and the rural. I mean, Siberia is a long way away from anywhere. I mean, what is the. Your reading of how the Russian peasant or the mystic, how does that present within the kind of smart societies of a world that's becoming rapidly richer, more interested in the outside world, to the West? How does Rasputin fit within the context of Russia in the late 19th, early

[Sir Anthony Beaver]

20th centuries, in this sort of fantasia period, this turn of the century time, there was a lot of playing around with spirituality, with table turning and things like that in the big cities, particularly in Petersburg. I mean, it wasn't very serious in many ways. It was much more for entertainment, I think. But they did like having holy fools. There was definitely the way that once it was known in St Petersburg that the royal family had this pet Siberian peasant. Then, of course, it was easy for Rasputin suddenly to sort of penetrate high society in Russia. And the very fact that the Tsar had this obsession of the Tsar Batushka, the idea that there was this spiritual affinity between the imperial court, or the. Rather the tsar himself and the ordinary Russian peasantry, which, of course, was a complete fantasy, which Nicholas encouraged, I think, in the idea that because of this association with the peasantry, there would be no revolution. Well, I mean, that was a very unwise assumption, I think, on his part.

[Interviewer Peter]

But one of the things you make clear as the. Which I'm sure many people haven't read your wonderful book, maybe won't know, is that Rasputin was the latest in a long line of sort of wandering mystics and of weirdos who popped up. And the holy fools bit. Tell us a bit more about how the holy fool works in Russia.

[Sir Anthony Beaver]

Well, the holy fool was not just a jester at the court, as you found in many monarchies in Britain as well, but it was very much this notion that somehow God could speak to you through very unlikely sources. And in these cases, they were human beings who had been, shall we say, severely disadvantaged in many ways, both in the way that they spoke, but also in the way that they moved and they looked. And quite often the more grotesque they were, the more people thought that they must be holy.

[Interviewer Peter]

But, I mean, it fits within the context of Tolstoy and others writing about how Russia, how difference was compared to other Western countries, this connection with the soil, with the land, with the peasantry, and sort of set within a sort of framework of Orthodoxy and of a sort of a much wider, I guess, relationship with nature and so on. So, I mean, I think the bit I'm trying to get at is Rasputin is so famous here in the west. And when you meant when we talk about holy fools and so on, but from the kind of Russian context, I wouldn't say it was necessarily normal. But you know, they had a lot of these guys wandering around who were speaking about something about a higher good and a higher, a higher meaning of, of life, of the divine and so on. Is that something that feels to you specifically Russian? I mean, it does look and sound and feel very different to what we're seeing in, in other parts of Europe. And is that because Russia is catching up and it's moving in a different velocity to its, its neighbors to the West?

[Sir Anthony Beaver]

Yes, I think that Russia, particularly with this fundamental contradiction of Europe and Asia, of Eurasian, this sort of Eurasian mixture, is very different. And the Russians are very, very conscious of it. At times they're defensive, at other times they're aggressive in this sort of feeling that somehow they have a greater spirituality because of this, a connection with the land. I mean, a paradox in many ways, when one sees the arrival of the Soviet Union and the total disregard for the environment. I mean, I remember hearing how environmental studies under the Soviet Union were known as goodbye motherless because of the total contempt for nature itself. But you're absolutely right. The original feeling was of a spiritual affinity. And of course, coming from Siberia, Rasputin did have this feeling about the woods, the lakes, nature and all the rest of it. So it was slightly animist in its way. And one can understand why the Orthodox Church did have so many breakaway cults and sects.

[Interviewer Peter]

I mean, just as a quick aside, do you see that in 21st century Russia today, the kind of the disappearance into the wilderness and Putin riding bare chested across Siberia, whipping himself with twigs, is that something that kind of has come back and is alive and well?

[Sir Anthony Beaver]

I don't think it's natural. I think that that was entirely a show for the people hoping to play to the past as much as to the present and the future. And Putin did this very much and has done it very much, for example, in his adoption of basically White Russian ideology. I mean, Dugin Medinsky and the ideologues who have influenced him. How far they've influenced him is impossible to tell. But certainly the idea comes that it's the White Russian philosophy, not the red, which has influenced Putin, and he brought back the bodies of white generals after, when he became president. It's the ideology really, which the whites developed after their defeat in the civil war in Berlin and in Paris.

[Interviewer Peter]

I think if you go to cast a movie of Rasputin, you could do worse than casting Alexander Dugin as the. As the bad monk himself. And, I mean, he looks and sounds and, you know, has these sort of departures into the surreal that are hard to follow, but they're sort of very compelling to a certain kind of person who thinks there is a higher truth to be revealed. But tell us a bit about how Rasputin went from the fields of Siberia, the forests of Siberia, to finding himself in the center of the imperial nest in St. Petersburg.

[Sir Anthony Beaver]

Well, he became a wandering pilgrim, a stanik. I mean, there were about a million of them on the roads in Russia, this sort of period. And he went to all the different holy places and even went all the way to Mount Athos and back. But it was really in about 1904, when, in Kazan, the old Tata city on the Volga, that he met this rich widow who put him in touch with an influential bishop, who in turn put him in touch with an even more influential bishop in St. Petersburg. And this provided this astonishingly rapid ladder to the top where by November 1905, he is introduced to the Tsar and the empress. And this arrives at a crucial moment. He arrives at a crucial moment because. Because the Tsar has been totally humiliated by his stupidity in the war against Japan. The way that he approached it, the way that he was encouraged to indulge in it, in the idea that it would somehow bring the country together, when, in fact, it did entirely the opposite. So when Rasputin is finally introduced by the Grand Duke Nicholas and his wife, the Montenegrin princess, to the Tsar and the Tsaritsa, it is, as I say, a perfect moment because he is able, through the voice, which I think was his most powerful and effective medium of communication, even more than his eyes, those penetrating eyes to charm the imperial couple. And this was the start of the relationship.

[Interviewer Peter]

Tell us about his eyes and his character. I mean, you sketch it out beautifully in the book. And I mean, he obviously is a deeply charismatic man and is able to generate these kind of very deep responses in people. Is that a gift? Is that something that he works on? Is that something that he uses fraudulently? I mean, how do you. How do you read his character?

[Sir Anthony Beaver]

Well, he certainly worked upon it, there's no doubt about that. I mean, what is fascinating is to read the accounts of intelligent people who were objective, not necessarily entirely against him or anything like that. But, I mean, for example, the wonderful writer Tessie, the way that she observed him very closely indeed, in his way of trying to. His seductive methods, the way that he used his voice, his eyes, the way that he was very tactile and had to touch people the whole time, not necessarily for sexual reasons, but that quite often was part of it. And he certainly tried to seduce Teffy, but he certainly was able to use those eyes sometimes with good effect. At other times, I think he repelled many. And it's striking the way that men reacted against him, while on the whole, women tended to be fascinated. But this was partly because in St. Petersburg society, which was a very masculine, patriarchal society, very few men paid much attention to the feelings of women. And Rasputin was very clever in the way that he did manage to appear. He completely understood what they were thinking, what they were feeling, and all the rest of it. And this is where he, shall we say, had his entry.

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[Interviewer Peter]

His relationship with the Tsarinos is obviously central to both his story and what is great about your book is, is that you make it central to the story of Russia in the kind of decade or so up to the revolution and. And just passed it. Well, how do you explain the Tsarina's relationship with him? Is she taken with his eyes and his manner, his. The Russian peasantry appeal that he has, even though she's. She's German in her own background, was it all about her son and her maternal instincts that she's trying to reach for? Any kind of hope that won't let her son have a better health outcome because of his haemophilia?

[Sir Anthony Beaver]

Well, you're quite right. I mean, you've got that. That's just about the list, and that's an important one. In a way. Yes, she was attracted by his voice. I think a lot of the time he was talking close to gibberish. I mean, a mixture of platitudes and so forth. But his obvious spirituality, even though it was combined at times with the most appalling lasciviousness obviously, not with the Empress herself, but all of this, and of course, his ability to calm the Tsarevich when he was suffering from these hemophiliac attacks, which was appalling pain, especially in the joint, and a lot of this was due to blood pressure. So the fact that his voice, I think, which was not so much the eyes, was so calming that it was enough to breathe down the blood pressure. I mean, I think that this was his sort of main ability in that particular way, but the whole way that she fell for him, I mean, she was besotted, not sexually at all. I don't think there was any question of him and the Tsaritsa sleeping together or anything like that, and certainly not the teenage daughters. But what one has to realize is what effect this had. It was the rumors, the fake news of the day, which convinced virtually everybody that there must be something going on, and the fact that there was this letter which she had written to him, which was stolen and then spread around, saying that she longed to fall asleep forever on his shoulder, meant that people started to believe that the Tsar himself was a cuckold. And in a patriarchal society like Russia, this totally undermined his authority and people's beliefs. So when it came to the revolution of February 1917, there wasn't. There was hardly a sword drawn in his defence and by the officers of the Imperial lifeguard regiments.

[Interviewer Peter]

And you give no credibility whatsoever to the scurrilous rumors. You think it's just. It's all gossip and nonsense because of the way that you read the relationship with Alexandra Nicholas or because you think it's just obvious that this would have been a series of fake news to try to discredit both her and her husband and Rasputin. I mean, you're very emphatic about that.

[Sir Anthony Beaver]

Oh, yes. I mean, I. I didn't think that it was sort of. The rumours weren't sort of designed to undermine. I think once they started, they. They rapidly increase and they did undermine everything about the whole authority of the Emperor himself. But, I mean, the. The. The point is, really, is that one can, I think, be absolutely certain. First of all, she was extremely particular about adultery. I mean, she was appalled at the adultery of. Within the Romanov family and the other members, the grand dukes and their mistresses and all the rest of it. And there is no question of him ever having molested the daughters. You can tell this from their letters. The only one who was dubious about him was the oldest daughter, Olga. I think she found him slightly creepy, but that doesn't mean that he actually molested. And I don't think he would have done. I think that that was all perfectly genuine. But the important point really is that when it comes to the effect on history, on the whole of the collapse of the regime, it was the way that when in 1915, the tsar appointed himself and decided to become the commander in Chief at the Stavka, it meant that Rasputin and the Empress together were basically choosing the ministers. And the most disastrous choice of all, in what the press described as ministerial leapfrog, was the choice of Protopopov as Minister of the Interior. And this was the direct lead, if you like, to the revolution, because Protopopov insisted on controlling the railways and as well as his other work as Minister of the Interior. And this caused very chaos which prevented the food and prevented the grain getting to the cities in that winter of 1916, 1917. So the actual start of the revolution, which had nothing to do with the Bolsheviks, even the socialist revolutionaries, had really no part in it in terms of the leadership. It was of a genuinely spontaneous steep street revolution. And this came about because of the lack of food caused by the appointment of Protopopov by Rasputin and the Empress.

[Interviewer Peter]

I'd like to talk about the idea of Rasputin as a sort of symbol for everything that's going wrong. The loss of confidence, the incompetence, the bad decision making. But just before that, Anthony, what. What about Rasputin's personal belief and his spirituality? I mean, do you. Do you see him as someone who is genuine or is just fraudulently trying to unveil himself to get close to power for his own personal enrichment, status and so on? How do you see his mysticism? In a kind of. In the most generous way, I suppose.

[Sir Anthony Beaver]

Well, he was deeply spiritual, but I mean, he was also completely lascivious. And I mean, he can be at one moment sort of undressing a woman or whatever, and then falls on his knees and starts praying. I think he is a genuine mixture in this particular way. I think also when, yes, there was the charlatan aspect to him, but I think there's also the genuine aspect to him. I mean, this is why I find him so fascinating, because you cannot come up with any simple explanation. And that's why I can't resist quoting the great remark of Theodore Tutchev about, you know, Russia can only be understood, cannot be understood with the mind alone. And this is absolutely true of Rasputin, too. You cannot categorize him in one way, either as pure charlatan or as sort of, you know, pure spiritual purity. He is this extraordinary mixture. And from that point of view, one can understand why even today, I think Russians have a lot of trouble. I think they're defensive about Rasputin in Russia today because of the way that he has been portrayed almost entirely as the mad monk, drunken, lascivious, et cetera, in the West. So that's why there is a tendency to defend his spirituality, I think, in Russia today.

[Interviewer Peter]

Well, what about Nicholas ii? Does he get equally generously marked as being not just a nincompoop, but also having some insights into how to do things well? I mean, his. His homework gets very poorly marked. Well, by. Not just by you, but by everybody. I mean, other things that Nicholas II did that would perhaps need to be rehabilitated and to be more generously seen in the. In the benefit of hindsight. In the same way that we're going to say Rasputin was neither one nor the other.

[Sir Anthony Beaver]

Well, yes, I mean, he was quite, you know, a genuine family man. He adored his family. He was completely loyal to his wife, which was very unlike the other Romanovs. So you can. He was also quite. Basically quite a sort of kind man, but he was also a complete moral coward. I mean, he wouldn't sack a servant or even a minister face to face. He would not. He never had the courage to do that. He always had to do it by sending a note afterwards to tell them that they'd been fired. So, again, I think that he was somebody who was basically. He was just not born to be a ruler and certainly hadn't been prepared because of the premature death of his father, Alexander iii. The trouble is, he and the Tsaritsa both shared the same disastrous aspect of being without any imagination. They were very bad judges of character. And in fact, they could hardly have been worse when the forerunner to Rasputin, famous Monsieur Philippe from France, who was a total charlatan, they believed everything, or at least they seemed to. And the Tsaritsa, the empress, even believed when he departed and gave her a little bell which he said will ring when anybody who is hostile comes close to you and a bunch of dried flowers which she said had been touched by Jesus Christ. Well, I mean, she had become more Russian than the Russians, having been so appalled at the idea of giving up her Lutheran faith and becoming an Orthodox, a Russian Orthodox member. And yet she became, as I say, more Russian than the Russians.

[Interviewer Peter]

And when the First World War starts, Anthony, and things start to go from bad to worse pretty quickly, that feeling of paranoia, of incompetence of poor decision making. That spiral just gets worse and worse and worse. And that presumably helps Rasputin's status at the court because he's able to navigate, explain what's going on, and to give hope that there are ways of digging out of an ever deepening hole.

[Sir Anthony Beaver]

Yes, I mean, his power actually had increased exponentially in 1911, when the tsarevich was closest to death. In fact, everybody had virtually given up hope. And suddenly, supposedly, Rasputin cures him. Well, he doesn't cure him, but he at least alleviates him at the point of death. And that from that point on, the Empress is convinced that he really is a saint and God works through him. So when the war comes, Rasputin does not have immediate power. It is only really from the moment when the Tsar decides to take over as commander in chief. And he is far away from Saint Petersburg because he is with the Stav Guard in the General headquarters. And this is when the Empress sort of takes over and she basically imposes their choice of favorite ministers and governors and even in a couple of cases, prime ministers.

[Interviewer Peter]

Well, I hadn't realized, Anthony, and I thought I knew Rasputin. And his story well was that he had, though, been very against the Russian entry to the war in the first place. Talk us through why his voice wasn't heard at that time.

[Sir Anthony Beaver]

Well, the Tsar would certainly listen to him on, should we say, spiritual matters. But at that particular point and in 1914, he wasn't listening to him or anybody else on military affairs. And on the whole, Raspberry, of course, was quite right when he warned the Tsar even in the question of the Balkan wars, before the First World War broke out, about the necessity of, of keeping away or not getting involved in a war. And this was because, of course, Rasputin did sympathise with the peasantry. He knew that they were the ones who will always suffer the most in the war. But then when the war starts, there's very little that he could do, partly because he is stabbed at the crucial moment in that summer of 1914, early summer. And so he's not there and his voice is not heard. But at the same time, as I say, I don't think that would have made much difference. People talk of that as a great what if moment of history. I don't agree with that. But then the moment comes when, as I say, he is able to really inflict his pew view and persuade the Empress in the appointment of key personnel. And this becomes really the spiral of disaster of both political control and often the military situation as well, but just

[Interviewer Peter]

talk us through that one. Because he comes across as being politically engaged, maybe even perceptive at times. I mean, the people he recommends, it's not completely clear that they're people who. He's pushing their case because they're duped by him. I mean, how does he get involved? What are his interests in trying to influence the political apparatus? Is it just about feathering his own nest deeper, further still? Would you say Rasputin is a political actor and politically perceptive?

[Sir Anthony Beaver]

No, he's not politically perceptive. In fact, he's disastrous in that particular way. He is right about some things. I mean, he's quite right about the food situation, but ironically, he is the one who actually makes the food situation worse by persuading the czar and allowing Protopopov to take over control of the railways. That is the key, really, to the whole revolution which is about to arrive. He is perceptive in one or two areas. His advice at the beginning of the war to forbid the sale of vodka is utterly disastrous. And that has a major. He talks about the health of the peasantry. Well, of course that's true, but in terms of the survival of the regime, it's deeply unpopular to put him out there. I think that one could say that was probably true with Yeltsin as well. But, you know, that's another echo of history anyway, in the case of the actual appointment and the way that he was trying to change things, he is so determined that the Tsar should not be influenced by any democratic ideas that both he and the emperors are worried about the allied officers at the time, same Stavka headquarters that the British and the French may even infect the Tsar with, you know, with democratic ideas there.

[Interviewer Peter]

God forbid. Well, if that were to happen today as well in the current Russian system. What about the assassination itself, Anthony? I mean, that's the kind of, I guess, the set piece that the most famous part, in many ways, of Rasputin's life is the extraordinary downfall. I mean, you take great care to unpick myth from reality. Was that an enjoyable thing to research and to work through and to tell fact from fiction? I mean, they kind of tell us exactly what happened that fateful night.

[Sir Anthony Beaver]

Well, it's, It's. I mean, it's the worst black farce you can possibly imagine. I mean, they're even boasting his great code conspirator Pushkovich is even boasting to journalists beforehand on when they're going to kill Raz Putin and almost. And how. I mean, it's unbelievable, the incompetence that was the whole story. The way that Prince Yusupov was going to use his wife, the Tsar's favorite niece, the beautiful Princess Irena, as the bait. But in fact, she's still down in the Crimea. Rasputin was desperate to meet her, so that wasn't too hard to arrange. But I mean, then when they come to this sort of. She is supposedly having a party upstairs with while they're going to kill him downstairs. But for this party, they only have one record to play, which is Yankee Doodle Dandy. I mean, it's unbelievable that they should try and sort of fake a party in that particular way, but they also have poisoned sweet cakes for him to eat. Well, first of all, they'd forgotten that he didn't like sweet things very much anyway. And secondly, that the sugar was going to reduce the effectiveness of the cyanide. And so the whole plan to have this ambush in the Moika palace, the Yusupov palace in St. Petersburg, is based on the idea that they didn't want to use pistols because there was a police station nearby and they would hear the shots. So they are reduced to using pistols. I mean, you know, you couldn't make it up. It was so badly planned and carried out.

[Interviewer Peter]

When they pull their guns, he doesn't get finished off that quickly.

[Sir Anthony Beaver]

They pulled out their guns, but I mean, they still shot him with. Well, the first shot, which was from Yusupov, was sort of a baby Browning pistol. And that didn't kill him. They thought he'd killed him and then suddenly they found he was sort of crawling outside into the courtyard and so they had to come after him and Pijukovic had to shoot him down with a sort of hefty great big savage pistol revolver from the American Revolution, sorry, American Civil War.

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[Interviewer Peter]

Reading the book, Anthony? I mean, it is obviously all about Rasputin, but I mean, it also reads that you're telling the story of the decline of an empire and of the chronic problems of poor decision makings. Decision making, the inability to face reality and of consistent decisions that make things go from bad to worse. I mean, were you aware of that? Was That a deliberate thing you were trying to do? And also, how does that have an echo on how you might be thinking about current contemporary Russia too, where there's an all powerful czar who's more or semi or tsar all but name, who's sort of semi detached from reality, has people around him are telling me what he wants to hear and is increasingly disappearing into the realms of the search for mysticism, spirituality and the messianic. I mean, first of all, was it about how the decline of Russia, the fall of the empire, the fall of the house of Romanov, that's the story which you're telling through Rasputin?

[Sir Anthony Beaver]

Indeed. I mean, my fascination with the whole story comes from really the way that this led to the whole pattern of conflict of the 20th century. I mean, what we see, as Kerensky said, without Rasputin there would have been no Lenin. And my previous book had been Russian Revolution and Civil War, which really was the very conflict which actually created the pattern for the whole of the 20th century. Because the historians are absolutely right when they say that the First World War was, was the original catastrophe, but it was the Russian Civil War and its horrors, its destruction, its cruelty, which created such a circle of fear in the whole of Europe. And even beyond that, this is what led on to the Spanish Civil War and the Second World War, the whole split between communism and fascism and so forth. And that is why Rasputin's and his role has always fascinated me in this particular way of what actually brought down the Romanov dynasty and actually led therefore to the possibility of the Bolsheviks seizing power in the autumn of 1917.

[Interviewer Peter]

Just to finish off, Antony, some echoes for today. I mean, Putin very famously said that the collapse of the Soviet Union was the greatest political catastrophe of the 20th century. I mean, do you think if he was being a bit more honest, he would say it was the revolution, 1917, that was the real problem for Russia?

[Sir Anthony Beaver]

Well, I think that is absolutely true. I think you put your finger on it there. I think that his phrase about the collapse of the Soviet Union was not necessarily his, should we say, prime belief at all. He's not interested so much in the. He will defend the reputation of Stalin, but that he. All he's interested in there is, if you like, the greatness of Russia. His real interest, of course, is in the Russian Empire. I mean, there aren't any hammers and sickles in the Kremlin. It's all statues of czars and it's all gold, double headed eagles, as in the palace on the Black Sea. So his view of the past is really entirely a question of the Russian Empire. That is his interest. And that, of course, is the way he really still sees Central Europe actually belonging to Russia. So I don't think he's changed in that particular way. But he still, of course, has to pay lip service to the Soviet Union, even though his real belief is in the Russian Empire.

[Interviewer Peter]

And you know, those parallels with Nicholas II of becoming increasingly detached from reality, sending men to their deaths for no obvious territorial gains, the inefficiency of logistics and supply chains, all the things that many of us are looking at in Russia. And you particularly as a former army officer, understanding how the key that logistics works better than anybody, particularly having written also about Stalingrad, the Second World War and Berlin too. I mean, those echoes are so obvious to some of us about the parallels between Putin and Nicholas ii. Do you think he sees those himself? Do you think that that's a obvious connection and that those around Putin will be passing him a copy of your book, saying, look, there are thousands of these around you?

[Sir Anthony Beaver]

No. And anyway, I think that, frankly, I mean, I find as a historians, one's main job is actually fighting parallels, because I think they always rather misleading, to put it mildly. I mean, it's something I'm sort of really working on at the moment, the way that through democratic confirmation bias, we fail to understand dictators and we make serious mistakes in the way that we look at their pattern and their development. And I think we always get it wrong. We thought in the 1930s, you know, the British and the French couldn't believe that anybody would be stupid enough to want to have another war in Europe like the First World War. Well, once again, both, not just Gerhard Schroeder and Angela Merkel, the idea of believing that nobody could be stupid enough to want another war on the Eurasian landmass, once again, we get it wrong. We underestimate Putin's desperate fury and anger of wanting to reverse, if you like, the humiliation of 1989, 1990. I mean, if one is going to make a parallel, it's much more like Hitler wanting to reverse the accumulation of Versailles, whatever you want to make in that particular way. But I do believe that these historical parallels, which historians, not historians, but particularly politicians and the media, love to do in as making sort of shorthand for explanations, if you like, to the people,

[Interviewer Peter]

I get to talk over a nice bottle of red wine. Anthony, I'll talk that one with you, too. I mean, it's all the paraphrasing tell story. And Anna Karenina, you know, all empires, when they work, they work for the same reason where they all collapse. They all have their own separate sadness and tragedies. But the last question is, I mean, sometimes when you read books by distinguished historians, you can tell they've enjoyed themselves writing them and researching them, too. And Rasputin is a character that must have given you huge pleasure to be separating reality from myth and from looking into this extraordinary man and the role he played in helping unravel threads that may well have unraveled anyway. Was it an enjoyable exercise? Was it compared to writing about Stalingrad, Berlin and suffering in the Russian Civil War? Did it feel different to writing about these big epics? Or did it feel epic in its own right? Because you're telling, like I said, through Rasputin, a. A much, much bigger operatic story, too.

[Sir Anthony Beaver]

Oh, I think that it was because it's a subject, as I say, on where it was going to lead. I mean, I've always been intrigued, not by following up the what is of history, the counterfactuals, but I am fascinated by counterfactuals. I mean, my favorite, in a way, is the fact that in, I think it was January 1914, the Archduke Franz Ferdinand was invited to England for a shooting weekend, shooting week at Welbeck, and he was shot by the Marquis de Juvenal, a French member who unfortunately didn't kill him. Now, if he killed him, we wouldn't have had the First World War. least that is one possibility. And ditto Rasputin. And, you know, can one actually follow through on the Kerensky idea that without Rasputin there would have been no Lenin? I love bringing these up, but I don't believe in playing the game that one should follow them all the way through. But it is a fascinating exercise.

[Interviewer Peter]

There's something in there. We have Lenin stuck in Zurich, Hitler wandering around trying to sell his rubbish paintings in central Vienna, too. So who knows how life would be different? And Rasputin in the meantime, would have risen to be the foreign minister in the Imperial court in St. Petersburg, perhaps in charge of all Russian foreign policy. And maybe, maybe things would have turned out differently. But it's such a pleasure. Congratulations on the book. It was a joy to read, as always, and beautifully told. You know, the writing as well, so. And thank you for giving your time today and for joining us. So thank you Ansi, so much, Peter.

[Sir Anthony Beaver]

It's great fun. Very good to see you. Thank you very much.

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