Legacy Podcast Summary
Episode: St George | This is England and Beyond - St George's Flag Today | 2
Date: October 30, 2025
Hosts: Afua Hirsch & Peter Frankopan

Overview

In this episode of Legacy, Afua Hirsch and Peter Frankopan explore the modern legacy of St. George and his iconic flag. Moving beyond the mythical saint and his role in English history, the conversation probes why the St. George's flag remains so visible—and divisive—in contemporary England. They delve into its association with nationalism, colonial nostalgia, issues of identity, and why the flag is both a rallying point and a source of discomfort for many, especially those from minoritized communities. The episode offers a candid, critical discussion of patriotism, belonging, and the unresolved complexities of English national identity.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. St. George’s Flag: From National to Global Symbol

• Colonial Spread and Nostalgia
  • The flag’s significance revived among English settlers in North America when its visibility faded in England itself after the Reformation and the rise of the Union Jack.
    • Afua: "It's ironic because these people aren't in England...while Englishness is busy evolving and changing with the times, it's always the people in the colonies...who want to cling on to this romanticized, imagined pure Englishness." [05:29]
  • The Crusades and colonialism share similar strategies for spreading and preserving cultural symbols.
    • Peter: "The principle of the Crusades is you have a place far from home where people go and serve their king and God...Empires often expand this way...they're bringing civilization and Christianity and commerce." [04:32]

2. Flag, Empire, and Raced Identity

• White Supremacy and Exclusion
  • Both hosts explore how nostalgia for an imagined Englishness abroad became tied to whiteness, with social structures privileging those who traced their lineage to early colonial settlers.
    • Afua: "There’s a kind of white supremacist element...these ideas about nostalgia and pride in Englishness were...connected with the idea of the superiority of the white race. The Royal Society of St George...had a specific mandate to strengthen and maintain the sentiment of race and English patriotism." [07:12]
  • Winston Churchill’s invocations of St. George linked national greatness with masculine, militaristic, imperial values.

3. The Flag in Modern Englishness

• A Symbol in Decline and Resurgence

  • After WWII, public celebration of St. George and his flag declined as Britain experienced decolonisation and a growing sense of shame over imperial legacy.
    • Afua: "There is this sense that it's not necessarily as socially acceptable to proudly triumph English patriotism anymore...the popularity of St. George's Day...declined in the late 20th century." [09:06]
  • The flag's resurgence is mostly tied to sporting occasions, especially football.

• Tribalism vs. Multicultural Britishness

  • The Union Jack became the symbol of "Cool Britannia," multicultural optimism, while the St. George’s flag remained racially charged and often exclusive.
    • Afua: "England flag was something else. It felt like a more tribal identity...that excludes me...constructed in a way that excludes. I don't think that's ever changed." [11:49]
    • Notable moment: She recalls a woman saying, "Britishness is for those people from the Commonwealth. We're the English and we’re a race." [11:49]

4. The Racial and Political Legacy of the Flag

• Far-Right Appropriation and Hostility

  • The flag's use in acts of hostility and by the far right fuels continuing discomfort among ethnic minorities.
    • Afua: "There are lots of incidents where it has been intended as an act of hostility towards immigration, where it has been associated with the far right, rather than just being a harmless expression of being proud to be English." [11:49]
  • A 2012 Telegraph headline noted that a quarter of the English population viewed the flag as a racist symbol, "irreparably tainted by racism and xenophobia." [16:16]

• Sense of Threat and Anxiety

  • National anxieties—economic decline, globalisation, and loss of empire—fuel a search for scapegoats and a retreat into exclusionary identities.
    • Afua: "This kind of native nationalism...is a response to the insecurities of globalized capital, of insecure labor, of a declining living standards..." [17:01]

• Comparing Englishness with Other UK Nations

  • Scottishness and Welshness are described as more inclusive and rooted in culture, while Englishness remains haunted by imperial decline and is often racially exclusive.
    • Afua: "If you go to Scotland and you ask a Scottish person what Scottishness is, they're going to tell you about...culture, food, music, folklore...In England, it's different. I don't hear black people describe themselves as English." [17:01]

5. The Role of Politicians and Reclaiming the Flag

• Political Virtue Signaling
  • Politicians' performative patriotism is critiqued as lacking authenticity and failing to address deeper issues.
    • Afua: "That just sounds like virtue signaling to the right, you know, and that's the problem with our political leadership, that there's no courage...Instead of addressing underlying issues, it's just: 'You should be proud of this.' The end." [32:25]

6. Can the Flag Change Meaning?

• Inclusion and Exclusion

  • The hosts engage with voices (such as Sadiq Khan and Billy Bragg) encouraging reclaiming the flag for a more inclusive vision. However, Afua stresses that pride in the flag can only be genuine if it becomes "an invitation, not a warning." [29:14]
    • Quoted: "I am not anti-flag, but if it is to fly for me too, it must be an invitation, not a warning. For now, I still feel I am dwelling in a colonial present." [29:14]
  • Without reckoning with its colonial and racist past, the flag will continue to be a flashpoint.

• Fundamental Questions of Belonging

  • Flags are rallying points and essential cultural symbols, but in England, because of unresolved history, these symbols are "so easily co opted" by exclusionary politics.
    • Afua: "Having not dealt with the underlying issues that make Englishness a very fragile identity...it gets so easily co opted into a project that is...trying to signal to immigrants or people...that you're not welcome here." [25:39]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "If the people who were waving England flags most enthusiastically right now bumped into St. George...how would they respond to a Greek Palestinian migrant from Turkey? ...the greatest irony: they would not welcome him with open arms."

  • Afua, pointing out the paradox of St. George as a migrant who would likely be rejected by modern flag-wavers. [35:56]

• "You can never really build something positive around a symbol if you haven't done the work of healing what's wrong with the message underlying it."

  • Afua, on confronting uncomfortable histories for meaningful identities. [29:14]

• "The pattern is clear. Recognition offered in moments of utility, withdrawn when it comes to belonging."

  • Citing Professor Daniel Osekis, Afua reflects on inclusion’s limits for minorities in times of national need. [29:14]

• "What it really means to be English in the 21st century"

  • Peter, reflecting on how the debate about flags is really about deeper issues of contemporary identity. [35:56]

Timestamps of Important Segments

• 01:10–03:16: Introduction to why the St. George's flag is controversial for many
• 03:47–08:23: The global spread and colonial legacy of the flag; links to whiteness and early American identity
• 09:06–11:49: The flag’s declining role and its ties to football and shifting national pride
• 11:49–17:01: Discussion of the racial dimension to Englishness and why the flag feels exclusive
• 17:01–21:08: Economics, globalization, national insecurity, and the rise of exclusionary nationalism
• 25:39–29:14: The power and danger of flags as foundational symbols for identity; the importance of reckoning with history
• 32:15–32:25: Politicized patriotism and skepticism toward politicians’ use of national symbols
• 34:36–36:30: Closing reflections on St. George’s “ironies” and the future of English identity

Tone & Takeaways

The episode’s tone is thoughtful, forthright, and frequently personal—particularly in Afua’s reflections on exclusion, colonial legacies, and her hopes for a more nuanced, inclusive national conversation. Both hosts navigate history and current affairs, using wit and expertise, to ask what it would take for Englishness, and its symbols, to offer true belonging rather than serve as lines of division.

In essence: The St. George’s flag embodies England’s unresolved tensions around race, history, and identity—serving as both a rallying point and a warning sign, depending on who is looking at it and why. The episode concludes with the hope that deeper historical understanding and honest conversation could help these symbols become invitations rather than warnings, reflecting a more inclusive nation.